No matter what the screeching drama club says - Trump will be remembered well for trying to save the working class at a time when everyone is about to be replaced by robots. https://t.co/yJmmZU6UHc
— Sasha Stone (@realsashastone) April 3, 2025
April 3, 2025
"The rich are punishing Trump for siding with the neglected, humiliated working class.... People cannot believe that there is a President working for them... and telling Wall Street to go screw itself."
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174 comments:
It will be interesting to see how it plays out. I hope for the best.
I love Batya Unger-Sargon because she makes me think she is the product of a dynastic union between the Akkadian royal house and Tony Randall.
JSM
Trump was talking about this issue for decades before he ever ran for president.
Complete and utter concurrence.
Well.... I agree with much of what she said, but she's a little shrill, and the facial expressions around her don't seem to reinforce her idea that 'we all agree'. And no: Everybody is not about to be replaced by robots. I'm old enough to remember when they almost fully automated an offshore drilling rig, and then realized they needed just as many people to maintain the automation as they did to just do the roughnecking manually - which was faster to begin with.
This is why you run into so many socialists on line who are sympathetic to Trump.
It's like what Russel Brand said about the Canadian Truckers Protests, which the media and the Canadian government called "fascist." He said "If this isn't the workers uniting for their rights, I can't imagine then what that would look like." That's a paraphrase, but yeah. There are people writing about MAGA Communism too.
Basically the owning class has co-opted the Democratic Party, what is better for people who pay for labor than more competition for their jobs from migrants, what is better for people who one apartment buildings than migrants driving up the rents? You never hear about this because they have bought and paid for the media. The Drudge Report was just the most obvious example of where big pockets came in and bought a populist media outlet, gutted it, and now wears its skin, but they have done the same thing to almost the entire mainstream media. So yeah, when state power and corporate power are united in one, it's called fascism, and when fascism came to America, it called itself "anti fascism" because that's how propaganda works.
"hey almost fully automated an offshore drilling rig, and then realized they needed just as many people to maintain the automation as they did to just do the roughnecking manually"
The first generation of a tech is always problematic. The last steam powered cars were superior to the gasoline powered cars of the time, we all know how that worked out.
Earlier we were talking about this emphasis on enunciation which was so annoying with Rachel Ziegler. Batya Ungar-Sargon uses it to great effect. She’s rarely interrupted.
john mosby said...
I love Batya Unger-Sargon because she makes me think she is the product of a dynastic union between the Akkadian royal house and Tony Randall.
OMG that’s funny. Thank you…
Rachel Zegler not Ziegler.
Nobody's humiliated except the Sitzpinker contingent.
No, I don’t agree the de-industrialization of America led to the downward mobility of the American working class…
Basically we are forked, and I am saying this as a card carrying member of the owning classes, so I guess that makes stoicism easier for me in this case, but allegiance to the class you were born into dies hard, and I ask people who say we need these migrants what happens to the people who, you know, sat in the back in math class, befuddled if they actually tried to pay attention, never destined for a job that required intellectual rigor, where do they go? Are the permanent barnacles dragging on the hull of the ship of state? Do we just pay them a guaranteed income to hang out in their trailer parks and do meth until the expire from some death of despair or other, s*cide or OD or careless car crash or whatever? They still get to vote, even if Democrats deem them deplorables who shouldn't be allowed to vote.
Bad writing: Sargon’s topic sentence reads like tariffs “destroyed the American working class,” etc.
Batya Ungar-Sargon @bungarsargon
Here's the truth about tariffs: For 60 years they destroyed the American working class to funnel money upwards into the pockets of the rich.
I think that the "deplorable" trope is a bid to self justify voter fraud.
The humans replaced by robots myth comes around every few years as long as I can remember, since The Jetsons in my time. Certainly before that …and I’ve seen some of these latest robots. Not to worry hoomans…
The rich are using the system to get richer. Yep, yep, yep. Been hearing the left rail against this for years. But (like cutting waste, fraud and abuse) the left screeches about it, but does NOTHING about it.
We are here to offer all sizzle, no steak. Stay hungry my friends.
- The DNC (likely)
A helpful piece on where Trump derives authority to impose tariffs.
https://constitutioncenter.org/blog/how-congress-delegates-its-tariff-powers-to-the-president
Section 301 of the Trade Act of 1974 allows the United States Trade Representative (USTR) to authorize tariffs on foreign countries that restrict U.S. commerce in “unjustifiable,” “unreasonable,” or “discriminatory” ways. If the USTR confirms such behavior after an investigation, the president has the discretion to allow the USTR to impose tariffs for at least four years.
Among the three provisions that allow the president to act on his own to impose tariffs without an investigation, only one has ever been used: the International Emergency Economic Powers Act of 1977. The act allows the president to declare an emergency under the National Emergency Act (NEA) and then use his extensive economic powers to regulate or prohibit imports. The CRS says that President Trump was the first chief executive to use this act in February 2025, when he announced tariffs on Canada, China, and Mexico. The emergency stated by the president can be terminated at this request, or by a joint resolution of Congress.
Section 122 of the Trade Act of 1974, which allows the president to enact temporary tariffs to address “large and serious United States balance-of-payments deficits” or certain other situations that present "fundamental international payments problems; and Section 338 of Tariff Act of 1930, which authorizes the president to enact “tariffs on articles produced by, or imported on the vessels of, foreign countries that discriminate against U.S. commerce in certain ways,” have not yet been used.
Interesting times. Wall Street really doesn't like this. Will Congress seek to claw back it's Constitutional authority regarding tariffs?
Who amongst us here started their working life pumping gas?
Sasha Stone does a good job in controlling the conversation here. I was chuckling at the woman on the right who was in vain raising her hand to break in.
Yes, the rich, the majority of American households who own stocks.
Also, no, I've never heard the Democrats run against Wall Street, nope, never have.
Charlie can't surf... AI can't plumb...
Stick it to the rich by making everyone, especially the working class poorer.
The only emergency here are the ignorant decisions by a Fat Tub of Goo.
Congress should end this madness today.
Look at a five year chart. The market has "plummeted" to where it was, what, last September 2024?
Wasn't that the apex of the Biden administration, hot money-fueled asset inflation?
Biden’s big mistake was thinking he could be FDR.
Trump says “hold my pudding, I’m going to be Hoover”.
That’s Batya. I recognize her from her other appearances but I checked the YouTube video as well.
Trump voter logic: If I lose my job then I won't have disposable income to buy tariffed foreign products... see, it's working!
I cant tell you how annoying it is to hear MSM types talk about Tarriffs. Usually i have to listen to these characters (1) when I drive around without my wife and (2) when I go to the Gym.
These people on NBC/ABC/CBS/CNN/NPR/PBS understand nothing about economics and they don't really care. Trump is for Tarriffs, so they are against them. And since Trump is increasing them, they portray them as some sort of horrible thing that will destroy the economy.
BTW, these are same people who ignored the massive inflation under Biden, or painted it as "Republicans Pouncing".
Clinton grew the Democrat coalition to include what they are calling now "the oligarchs". Bush bailed them out when their greed almost brought everything tumbling down. Obama continued catering to them, Trump 1 and Biden lockdowns gave them the biggest windfall in history.
We are definitely overdo for some readjustment.
So Stone’s point, to be clear, is that Trump is a true man of the left in the classic sense: someone who is willing to blow up the established economy to bring immediate benefits to the working class. In her view, the Democrats who pose as leftists are actually nothing of the sort—they’re just providing camouflage for moneyed interests. Traditionally, conservatives opposed radicals who wanted to overthrow existing social practices in the service of “the people.” The conservative objection is that if you don’t appreciate the stability those practices afford the whole society, your revolutionary ferment will collapse everything, not simply elevate the proletariat at the expense of the bourgeoisie. Maybe this time the Jacobins—Trump and co.—will get it right. But conservatives at least will want to be cautious.
During the Cold war we signed any number of "Free trade deals" to help other countries. We gave access to our market and usually allowed them to keep tarriffs on some or all of our goods. We didn't mind massive trade deceits, it part of winning allies.
Well, the Cold war was over 35 years ago. Trump is now telling other countries they wont get special favors, he wants equal treatment. They look after their countries interest, and Trump is looking after our interest. Seems like common sense to me, but y'know...
Irreconcilble:
1) We need massive immigration to get workers
2) Robots will replace everyone
Discuss.
Who amongst us here started their working life pumping gas?
@BUMBLE BEE, me, almost. Actually I was a lifeguard at a pool before I pumped gas at my uncle’s gas station. This was in the mid-1960s.
“It’s our declaration of economic independence. For years, hard working American citizens were forced to sit on the sidelines as other nations got rich and powerful, much of it at our expense, but now it’s our turn to prosper.” ~ Donald Trump
Yeah they were sitting on the sidelines watching a Japanese TV, scrolling on a Chinese phone, wearing south asian garments, on Chinese furniture, eating food prepared and delivered by immigrants. The only American-made things were the high fructose corn syrup and opiates.
It was always a choice Americans made to "enrich" other nations with their paper dollars in exchange for cheap consumer goods. It was always a choice to ensure that the spoils of the free trade empire accumulated to the wealthy.
The Trump voter has a romanticized notion of work and a blind spot for the ways they have in turn been "enriched" in the past four decades of openness.
The labor won't be performed by the real men seen in the beer adverts, it will be done by robots. e.g. Tesla.
You'll be paying a lot more for the goods created by workers doing 12 hour days 6 days per week in the nations "enriched" at your expense.
If you lose dollar hegemony you lose everything, those 7% deficits are paying for your military, healthcare and social security.
Back before the liberalization (distinct from today's liberation -- how many times have Americans been liberated now?) they used to argue that the unions and vested interests had been unjustly enriched by tariffs and too much state intervention so openness was the way to prosperity.
American history can be read as a series of revolutions and counterrevolutions in openness to trade. In around three decades' time when a new class of oligarchs have been enriched by today's policies and a new democratic critical mass have been adversely affected by them America will open up again. and so it goes...
"destroyed the American working class" Because the working class would do better without WalMart? Anyway, the elementary econ point is that technical change matters more than trade. U.S. manufacturing output is still strong--but now needs far fewer workers. We used to call that productivity, which used to be regarded as essential to growth, which used to be the basis for progress.
the left rejoice in destruction. esp the working class.
RCOCEAN II said...
Irreconcilble:
1) We need massive immigration to get workers
2) Robots will replace everyone
but WAIT! there's MORE!
3) american women aren't having children..
4) american women AREN'T "the Problem"
5) over population IS the problem
and
6) the SOLUTION IS: Massive immigration of illiterate aliens
The left rejoice in destruction. Esp. the destruction of the middle class and the working class. *fixed
The fake meltdown over tariffs is so lame.
Trump is merely attempting to even the playing filed and and the unfairness. F the media.
"The rule of thumb for a recession has been “two back-to-back quarters at -1.5”. That happened under Biden, but they changed the definition knowing his entire base would be none the wiser"
Dude on the street gets the tariffs.
Americans are economic idiots. R and L.
John Kennedy:
"Democrats would prefer that we ask, “Who needs to pay more in taxes?”
The American people want us to ask, “What the hell happened to the money?”
This has been the political realignment we have been pointing out for some time now.
The college educated laptop republicans decided they valued their class more than they valued their principles not that they ever had any really.
Cenk was mad because he knew that she was right. It is so hard for him to get over his hatred and realize someone else is solving the problem he has been fighting for his whole life.
People who use phrases like "Fat Tub of Goo" really diminish their own credibility, such as it is.
Kakistocracy said...
Trump voter logic: If I lose my job then I won't have disposable income to buy tariffed foreign products... see, it's working!
Rich shows us that he can make up stupid arguments and defeat them.
He thinks this makes him look smart.
Rich is just a mediocre mind who thinks he is smarter than he is.
AMDG said...
Stick it to the rich by making everyone, especially the working class poorer.
The only emergency here are the ignorant decisions by a Fat Tub of Goo.
Congress should end this madness today.
It makes me happy to see the neocon scum join their democrat allies openly. They never really believed anything they said.
They were always willing to sell out the working class for cheap Chinese goods and they were always willing to send poor people's kids off to fight their wars.
AMDG is neocon scum. Or some version of it.
I had a comment but forgot its base after reading through all of these. Some great comments in here. (dynastic union between the Akkadian royal house and Tony Randall)? Hilarious.
Anyway...great points all. And literally not one of us has any idea how this will actually play out. There were, are, and will continue to be negotiations going on all over the globe. A handful of countries have already come out and signaled their desire to negotiate. Others (China & S. Korea) have signaled their desire for a trade war. Note: we import A LOT from those countries. We are their major market. So...their rattling of swords is kinda like telling your best customer that you don't care if they leave, knowing it'll screw yourself if they actually do.
And there is more than just the trade tariffs currently in place that are being discussed. There are other non-tariff charges that push the price of US goods in some of these countries into ridiculous price points. Why can't we sell cars in China? It is by design.
So...much to learn. In the meantime, everyone is panicking and we're in the first hours of this literal paradigm shift in how our economy functions. There are other phases to come. Tax cuts, with an eye on eliminating the income tax all together, to be replaced by a consumption tax.
So...the red faced billowing into the TV cameras has only just begun. In past years I would sniff this stuff before it happened and would harangue my financial advisor about going 'all cash' and leaving the markets entirely. For some reason, I'm not feeling that today. I feel it's important to make the changes to bring back manufacturing- of all goods- back into the US. Not just cars, but pharmaceuticals, glassware, clothing...as much as possible.
And I think this needs to play out before I panic or celebrate.
Amen
⬆️ A tumbling dollar and stinging tariffs on imports. Hard to see how a bad inflationary spike (plus higher interest rates?) won't result in a recession. The longer term future of the USD as the world's reserve currency is a more interesting question.
Labor, environmental, and generally regulatory arbitrage progressed through outsourcing, insourcing, financial, environmentalism and other redistributive change schemes. Oh, and #HateLovesAbortion.
Temujin: "And I think this needs to play out before I panic or celebrate."
+1
I don't have all the info that Trump and his money people have. Even if I did, I likely wouldn't understand it - did not do well in any economics class (lol). Given the variety of discourse, there is no consensus about the effect in the general community either. However, it's clear to me that something had to change to revitalize large areas of the US. I'm still in the stock market, and am willing and able to weather this storm for now...
Btw - that is Batya Unger-Sargon speaking, not Sasha Stone. She was recently on Maher's show and blew them all away with her well-reasoned stance there, too. She calls herself a MAGA lefty.
I don't care about tariffs at all and the fact so many people are losing their minds over this tells me that a lot of good people worship money above all.
The tariffs are having the desired effects: discourage labor and environmental arbitrage, emigration reform, and encouraging cooperation. Meanwhile, tariffs are falling across the international community.
"Yes, the rich, the majority of American households who own stocks." I'm pretty solidly middle class and I've had mututal funds for years. Not a lot, but a nest egg for emergencies. They're not doing well--I'm afraid to check to see how badly each day. And maybe they'll settle out. But if a Democratic admin were in office now and the market was doing badly, you folks would be howling like you were passing a kidney stone.
She's right. If anything, we have been approaching an ideological consensus, if perhaps with different solutions. Trump is forging a unified path that the majority of Americans consider to be a productive resolution of diverse incongruities.
That's Batya, not Sasha Stone. Confirmed on Batya's IG feed.
And Peachy and Achilles are economic retards.
If Trump came out in support of using leeches and bleeding to cure illnesses they would start screaming about neocon doctors trying to stick it to the working class.
Trump’s tariffs are an incoherent mess that will make everyone poorer. They are a tax on economic activity. When you tax something you get less of it.
Yesterday Trump said perhaps the most ignorant things a President has ever said. He stated that replacing tariffs with the income tax caused the Great Depression. That is just a jaw dropping stupid thing to say.
This isn't tariffs, if it were tariffs, everybody would know that when the heat gets too hot, Trump will back off, and all will go back to "normal." The real problem is that the underlying economy sucks, that we have been in recession, most likely, since before Trump took office, and it was covered up by faked employment numbers that have all been revised away since, and Europe has been in recession for a lot longer, starting with then the US blew up Germany's economy by destroying their source of affordable natural gas.
The overuse of sanctions is what has destroyed the US dollar. All sanctions are is reverse tariffs, and if the target economy has the size and diversity to withstand them, as Russia's does, and China's is too, BTW. Once the US weaponized the dollar, it became imperative for any economy outside of the collective West to move away from the dollar. You can blame Joe Biden for destroying the dollar.
This is chickens coming home to roost. We have been living on credit cards to the tune of $4 trillion a year, and people like China and the petro-states are no longer going along. Plus we just seized the assets of Russia that they had invested in the West over a border dispute within the confines of the former Soviet Union.
I don't think that the assassination attempt on Putin, which could have easily precipitated full scale war in Europe and then nuclear war is a nothing burger either, when it comes to global economic stability.
Economics is what drove the undecided, non MAGA voters to him. I'm not going to panic yet. But this is not the result of bank failures, real estate screw ups, or something else beyond our control. He caused this.
"When you tax something you get less of it."
You mean like shipping good paying working class jobs overseas?
"He caused this."
That's like saying that Toto caused the crisis in Oz by pulling away the curtain.
"if the target economy has the size and diversity to withstand them" I never finished this.
We reverse tariffed the Russian economy, and it has only strengthened it. Same with China. We sanctioned their chip industry, and forced them to develop their domestic one to a much higher level.
Plus, BTW, our plan to break Taiwan off from China like Russia is planning to do with parts of Ukraine, may be coming a-cropper, and if war breaks out there? Well, there are a lot more fundamental problems with the economy than easily reversible tariffs.
I wrote: "Batya Unger-Sargon is sharing the video but the woman speaking in the video is Sasha Stone."
I was misinformed and have deleted that. It's Batya Unger-Sargon, I am told now.
Trump faces a simple political problem: tariffs will bring immediate economic pain, while the benefits—long-term economic restructuring—will take years. Trump bets voters will endure the hardship, but Americans aren’t known for patience and may vote them out instead.
The key question for the GOP is: will voters see enough economic gains—manufacturing restructuring, on-shoring, new plants—before the midterms?
Is there anything more boring than a collection of lefty buzzwords?
The kleptocracy is convulsing, conniving, conspiring, but the people are not taking a knee.
No more Water Closet, Whitmer-con, or Pelosi-rrection with benefits.
Kakistocracy said...
Trump faces a simple political problem: tariffs will bring immediate economic pain, while the benefits—long-term economic restructuring—will take years. Trump bets voters will endure the hardship, but Americans aren’t known for patience and may vote them out instead.
The key question for the GOP is: will voters see enough economic gains—manufacturing restructuring, on-shoring, new plants—before the midterms?
4/3/25, 10:29 AM
———————————————
The assumption that the tariffs will do what Trump says they will is speculative at best.
They will not work.
They are a political disaster. Trump was elected in large part because of the increase in the cost of living. Trump explicitly promised that his tariffs would not hurt consumers.
Prices are going to go up and in 26 and 28 voters are going to take it out on Republicans.
When President Newsom reopens the borders you will see the impact of these idiotic policies.
You're not middle class if you have to fill out a 1099-Div. Sorry. Upper middle class, sure. 401k, sure. But most middle class people don't have a bunch of money parked with investment firms.
Donald Trump is the first president in generations to tell Wall Street to screw itself—he's for the working men and women of this country.
A tale of two politicians. One is almost unfathomably wealthy, and despite the sour grapes of his political adversaries it is clear that he earned his money through shrewdness and hard work. As President of the United States his policies are focused on the workers and the small business owners.
The other politician is an avowed Marxist who has never held a job outside of political offices. Other than that he has never worked a day in his life.* Somehow, despite the relatively low modest salaries for political office he owns three houses. His rhetoric is all about how the working class is being screwed, but instead of forming an alliance with the first politician to help craft policies to support the working class, he fights the first politician tooth and claw, for the benefit of the wealthy elites.
The first politician is, of course, Donald Trump and the second is Bernie Sanders. The “workers of the world” have united, and they support Trump and not the Marxist.
_______________
* It is a matter of record that in the 1970s Bernie Sanders was thrown out of a commune for shirking his chores. The story of that commune is documented in the book We are as Gods, available via the Althouse Amazon portal.
We do have one reliable fact about all of this. Continuing to do the same things we have been is a clear path to disaster. That needs to be the starting point, and not just rhetorically, accepting it as serious and clear evidence that something needs to change dramatically.
“But most middle class people don't have a bunch of money parked with investment firms.”
^^ Let’s say Walmart is bringing a toaster in from China. When Walmart brings that toaster in, they're now going to have to pay 34% of its price in the form of an additional fee (tariffs) to the US government.
So does Walmart ask the toaster maker in China to eat that cost and accept less money for the toaster? Or does Walmart reduce its own profits? Or do they just jack up the price of the toaster and have the US consumer pay more for it?
A lot of times, it is the American consumer because companies tend to pass on the cost of those tariffs so that they can preserve their own profit margins and they don't have to see their own profits decline.
I'm skeptical of anyone who expresses certainty about the long run effects of these recent moves. I say that as a person who is generally opposed to tariffs.
"If you lose dollar hegemony you lose everything, those 7% deficits are paying for your military, healthcare and social security."
We are running 6.1% deficit right now. We can't cut spending. (or they will firebomb your car dealership)
We can only raise taxes so much. Tariffs are a tax.
I don't think people have thought enough about a 6.1% deficit in peace time. Essentially if you try to remove it, you will get a recession. Tariff or no tariff.
Now...the scary part is this tariff idea wasn't really well thought out, with lots of potential problems.
But that 6.1% deficit is actually the biggest problem and I'm not sure any plan to deal with it has been discussed.
Walmart is going to pass the tariff onto American consumers.
Chinese factories don't have huge profit margins. Walmart already made sure of that before.
So, these tariffs will get passed on. Will they be a lot?
$10 item becomes $15 times 3 = $45 instead of $30
So yes that's a lot.
But expect rampant cheating from China.
O yeah, when the GUY says that’s Batya, he gets listened to.
We have few entry level jobs for our own people to start their journey to self sufficiency. Remember the tune that accompanied the downturn of England? No Future!
A further economic consideration is that the third world has no fundamentals like health care and education and language to help in assimilation here.
"Trump’s tariffs are an incoherent mess that will make everyone poorer. They are a tax on economic activity. When you tax something you get less of it."
I wish i could bottle the massive stupidity in this comment, and sell it for $10 a bottle. Get less of what? How does importing foreign goods create "economic activity" in the USA? And no, just because we raise our tarriff doesn't automatically mean our exports will go down.
Let me guess: You're a losertarian, or a trump hater. Cause everything he does is wrong. Or evil.
All the other countries that have tariffs are shit hole countries with the poors begging on the street - tariffs obviously don't and will not work!!! (slash-s)
^^bookmarked for future derision^^
“Here's the truth about tariffs: For 60 years they destroyed the American working class to funnel money upwards into the pockets of the rich. Donald Trump is the first president in generations to tell Wall Street to screw itself—he's for the working men and women of this country.” ~ Batya Ungar-Sargon
Calling tariffs -- regressive taxes that will fall most heavily on working and middle-class Americans, the vast majority of whom do not work in manufacturing and reap no benefit from U.S. exports -- "class warfare" is just tired nonsense.
It's not 1956. A small fraction of American workers work in manufacturing today, and manufacturing jobs are not, on average, better-paid than other working-class jobs. And even if companies open more factories here, those factories will be highly automated, and create relatively few jobs.
Tariffs today effectively require working — and middle-class people to pay taxes to subsidize a small number of manufacturing jobs, while also hurting the large number of people who work for American businesses that rely on imported inputs. Tariffs are just bad for the economy.
It's not the rich. Its the kleptocracy that leverages Diversity and demos-cracy for redistributive change, climate change, human rites and other purposes.
Who amongst us here started their working life pumping gas?
Ohhh, me.
Kak - 100% BS.
the reality is - Your party ruined our nation. for greed and power.
Trump is pairing tariffs on imported goods with tax cuts on domestic production.
This is really a simple calculation. If you lower costs for domestic production and raise costs on imports you get more domestic production.
ADMG and Rich are just hiding from this obvious truth. They are stupid people and nobody cares about their lies.
Every other country in the world has tariffs to protect their working class. We are going to do the same.
It is not complicated at all.
“That's like saying that Toto caused the crisis in Oz by pulling away the curtain.“
Lots of high quality humor here today.
Hey Achilles, you Rosemary Kennedy level retard.
Even if, under the unlikely chance that Trump is right, how long will it take for production to shift to the US, how much will it cost, and who will pay for it.
By the way, this is exactly the reasoning behind the Smoot-Hawley tariffs and history shows that was an epic blunder.
Kakistocracy said...
A lot of times, it is the American consumer because companies tend to pass on the cost of those tariffs so that they can preserve their own profit margins and they don't have to see their own profits decline.
The government is going to tax something.
Tariffs are a tax on things made in China.
Corporate taxes and Income taxes are a tax on things produced domestically.
Trump is going to raise taxes on things made in China and lower taxes on things made in the US.
I hope this clears it up for you. I know you are kinda slow and have trouble with the most basic Economic concepts but I tried to make it easier for you.
AMDG said...
Hey Achilles, you Rosemary Kennedy level retard.
Even if, under the unlikely chance that Trump is right, how long will it take for production to shift to the US, how much will it cost, and who will pay for it.
By the way, this is exactly the reasoning behind the Smoot-Hawley tariffs and history shows that was an epic blunder.
One thing you have to remember about people like ADMG is that he has built his entire paradigm around his idea he is a smart person. That is why he gets so pathetically angry when his mediocrity becomes apparent.
Trump is going to raise taxes on things made outside of the country and he is going to lower taxes on things made inside the country. This will cause more things to be made in America and this will increase demand for labor in the country and support our working class.
Smoot-Hawley happened in 1930 well after the crash and had nothing to do with causing the depression. You wish it did but it didn’t. Using that as an argument just makes you dishonest and stupid.
Kak: “ Tariffs today effectively require working — and middle-class people to pay taxes to subsidize a small number of manufacturing jobs ….” The characterization of tariffs on other countries as “taxes” on Americans is Democrat sophistry intended to mislead and scare people who are ignorant of basic economics.
“Tariffs are just bad for the economy.” If so, dozens of countries imposing tariffs on American goods have failed to notice.
^^ When a country runs a trade deficit, it imports other countries' standard of living into its own and gives the other countries little slips of paper. Nice work when you can get it!
We are now going to lower the American standard of living by reducing the importation of a higher standard of living from elsewhere. The billionaires won't notice but all the little people will.
The little people will now learn what has been fact for a long time -- the Super rich run Washington, not the people. Even more stringent walls are being put up around ballot boxes. The little people can squawk but they no longer rule. The Super rich will happily trade democracy for plutocratically controlled political power exercised by an authoritarian presidency.
The stupidity of the trade policy is the message -- the Trump entourage has the Power!
There is no greater prize in the world than privileged access to the US consumer market. Communist countries drool over it. World wages are at slave level to allow countries to arbitrage labor costs. Engineers in Europe and Canada make half what they do in the US, in India and Mexico a tenth.
And when we put up tariffs in the 1990’s what did China and Germany do? Spend billions building factories in Mexico so that they could bypass the tariffs via NAFTA. Well, those assets are going to be stranded if Trump gets his way. The cheat will no longer work. This is what Mexico and Canada are worried about.
I know it will sadden Democrats to see UAW guys in the Midwest making $150kpy and voting for Trump. So tariffs must be stopped.
Kak (12:44): Oh my. “We are now going to lower the American standard of living by reducing the importation of a higher standard of living from elsewhere.” “Elsewhere” referring to all those countries with a higher standard of living than ours like - oh well, you know …. LOL!
Achilles, you world class moron.
Smoot-Hawley turned a recession into a long depression that required a devastating war to get out.
Since even items that are manufactured in the US have varying degrees of internationally sourced components or materials there is very little that will not be negatively impacted by the idiotic tariffs.
What will be the cherry on the top is when the world community says screw it and the dollar’s role as the reserve currency is ended.
One of the greatest acts of self harm since Brexit. The issue is the refusal to acknowledge what is in front of you.
Kakistocracy said...
^^ When a country runs a trade deficit, it imports other countries' standard of living into its own and gives the other countries little slips of paper. Nice work when you can get it!
We are now going to lower the American standard of living by reducing the importation of a higher standard of living from elsewhere. The billionaires won't notice but all the little people will.
One thing to point out is that white collar workers do benefit from exploiting foreign workers and offshoring production to various countries who pay working class people even less than we do.
Trump has made the Republican Party a working class party and there is a small number of people like rich who will be upset that the working class people in the country will have a larger share of the wealth produced.
The best part of watching rich and admg flail and rage is that they are not only going to be proven wrong but they are also powerless to stop what is happening.
There is nothing more pathetic in our political system than the neocon bush republicans. Nobody likes them and they are bitter failed human beings.
Everyone hates you and laughs at you. Your frothy posts of stupidity and ignorance are a joke for the majority of people who see through you.
Bye Felicia.
So, how are everyone’s 401Ks today? Looking good? It’s just a small sacrifice, not to worry.
But just in case, go to Costco and do a mega grocery haul. No panic though!
Achilles said...
"Trump is pairing tariffs on imported goods with tax cuts on domestic production.: Yes! And these are tit for tat tariffs. "You tax us at 25%. We'll tax you at 25%. IOWs a wash.
Shorter Inga:
all through the day, I me mine I me mine I me mine.
What the pro-Tariff idiots refuse to acknowledge is that the people hurt most by the higher prices are the working class people they falsely claim to champion.
The truth about tariffs is that we have no earthly idea how Trump's Gambit is going to play out. Just because it didn't work in the 1930s doesn't mean the same effects will result today because the entire economic structure of the world is completely different. It's not even the same solar system as the 30s.
As far as I'm concerned, Trump won the election and earned the right to exercise his power as best as he sees fit. In addition, Trump did not hide his intentions during the election. Anybody who is surprised about anything that the administration has done so far is living in a fantasy world.
People should have more faith in the people of the United States and all of the rest of the people in the world who want to live like Americans.
The idea that Trump can reorder the World Economy on an uninformed whim is bizarre.
Congress should not be able to delegate its Constitutional responsibilities to anyone.
Tariffs will produce lots of well-paid manufacturing jobs for American workers. Of course, those workers will be American robots, and Musk is ready to provide them.
The trade imbalance/tariff issues have been going on for decades. My second job after college was in robotics/industrial automation in the mid-80s. The goal then, and still today, was/is to figure out how to onshore American manufacturing again. At the time, so much manufacturing was moving to Asia. I'm all for free trade, but all sides need to stand down with respect to tariffs, not just one side.
@ Howard: That's why we're imposing 50% tariffs on Lesotho? Lesotho’s main export is diamonds.
Trump just wants to get rid of every trade deficit we have with every country in the world, because he thinks a trade deficit is proof that you're getting ripped off.
Trump doesn't understand that trade can be win-win: I give you money, you give me stuff I want. Instead, he sees trade entirely in zero-sum terms: if we're buying more from Vietnam than Vietnam is buying from us, Vietnam is ripping us off. And he hates being ripped off.
“Let Donald Trump run the global economy. He knows what he’s doing. He’s been talking about it for 35 years.”
What could go wrong?
Howard Nutlick in a CNN interview today
Kakistocracy said...
@ Howard: That's why we're imposing 50% tariffs on Lesotho? Lesotho’s main export is diamonds.
Trump just wants to get rid of every trade deficit we have with every country in the world, because he thinks a trade deficit is proof that you're getting ripped off.
Trump doesn't understand that trade can be win-win: I give you money, you give me stuff I want. Instead, he sees trade entirely in zero-sum terms: if we're buying more from Vietnam than Vietnam is buying from us, Vietnam is ripping us off. And he hates being ripped off.
4/3/25, 2:01 PM
—————————
Thinking that the existence of a trade deficit is necessarily bad is the sign of a low IQ individual.
Following Trump’s logic we are all getting ripped off every time to the grocery store because we are subsidizing it.
Can we expect some sort of subsidies being provided to those affected negatively by import taxes levied by the various nations?
The opponents of tariffs should be supporting Trump. They know his goals are to lower tariffs around the world and to lower the barriers globally on US made products.
But we all know they are not being honest and we all know their opposition to Trump is rooted in bad faith.
Sure, I get the trepidation about the extreme measures that Trump is taking between militarizing the border punishing speech in college implementing widespread tariffs and generally bullying our friends and neighbors into pulling their own weight.
Like it or not, the American people elected him to do just these things. The world economy is huge there are 7 billion people living on the planet. I'm not going to allow political machinations and social media outrage to get me into a lathered panic over the current administration.
It's times like these where we need to remember the old zen story about we'll see
Keldonric said...
Can we expect some sort of subsidies being provided to those affected negatively by import taxes levied by the various nations?
Tax cuts for people who work in the US and for people who invest capital here.
Achilles said...
The opponents of tariffs should be supporting Trump. They know his goals are to lower tariffs around the world and to lower the barriers globally on US made products.
But we all know they are not being honest and we all know their opposition to Trump is rooted in bad faith.
4/3/25, 2:28 PM
————————————
If Trump’s goal were to reduce tariffs he would have based the reciprocal tariffs on what the other country’s tariff rates actually are. He did not do that. Instead he based the tariffs on the trade deficit.
His goal is to eliminate trade deficits.
So what he is doing is levying the heaviest taxes on developing counties that export raw materials do us since they do not have the resources to even buy from US companies in equal amounts.
This means that the cost of items manufactured in the US that use these raw materials is going to go up.
Just plain stupid.
Don’t we need a vibrant middle class in America?
Don’t we need the ability to make the things that we rely on to guarantee our security?
Stellantis cuts jobs today. That's what is called flying under the cover. Stellantis was already having serious problems in the US, long before Trump was elected. But by timing their announcement, they will get a softer reaction, and Trump's opponents will pounce.
This is probably how people felt during FDR's first term, when "bold, persistent, experimentation" when the president engaged in kooky policies like personally setting the price of gold. I don't think tariffs are going to achieve the particular ends Trump is seeking (restoring US manufacturing capacity), but it's probably the case that without a massive shock like these global tariffs, the US isn't particularly competitive as a mass manufacturing location.
That’s what the American people get when they voted for a mob boss.
https://prospect.org/economy/2025-04-03-theyre-not-tariffs-theyre-sanctions/
“They’re Not Tariffs, They’re Sanctions
Stop trying to place coherence on a policy that’s really just a mob boss breaking legs and asking for protection money.”
“What Trump is doing is a sanction policy, only he’s doing it against the whole world, all at once, for the assumed harm of “ripping off” the United States for decades. Sanctions have become a dangerously large component of American geopolitical strategy, an instrument of economic war felt disproportionately by the world’s poorest citizens. The stated reason that Russia and North Korea and other rogue states aren’t on the tariff lists is because sanctions have destroyed their ability to have a trading relationship with the U.S. Trump is applying those punitive measures to the rest of the world.
It is not at all surprising that Trump sees the appeal in sanctions. It is no different from a mob boss moving into town and sending his thugs to every business on Main Street, roughing up the proprietors and asking for protection money so they don’t get pushed out of business. Trump believes that the U.S. is indispensable enough that it can intimidate every country on Earth by, well, asking for protection money, which would take many forms: curbing migration, taking in more U.S. farm exports or weapons systems, reducing industrial capacity in China and forcing more consumption, buying long-dated U.S. debt on the cheap, siding with a war strategy against Iran, literally anything the White House wants. Trump now has a tool by which he can achieve whatever goals he conjures up, or simply have his leg-breakers beat the global economy to a pulp. It’s a mentality fit for someone repeatedly linked to organized crime.”
We can’t impose tariffs, what would happen to the Uyghurs in China? They would probably have to pay their masters for the privilege of making cheap plastic crap for the US. But the answer might be, impose tariffs to prevent the exploitation of foreign workers.
I have definitely noticed that the cheap electronics I buy from Amazon/China works for about 6 months until it craps out and I have to buy a new one. US made T Vs used to last for 20 years. Now you can’t buy quality if you want it. I would pay more for quality, but once you break the system like the globalists did, it’s hard to go back.
The only American-made things were the high fructose corn syrup and opiates.
You ignorant dunce. American manufacturing exports as a percentage of worldwide manufacturing have never been below 10% in the postwar years. They were 30% in the 1950's thanks to wartime devastation, decreased to 15-20% in the 1980-90s as first Japan and then China became powerhouses, bottomed out at 11-13% under Obama, and are up to 16% or so now.
It is freaking hilarious for the town scold to rant about sanctions. The democrats promoted sanctions for decades as a way to make “peaceful” war that just made real war easier. Very dumb.
Rule 1, avoid war at all cost. Rule 2, if you finally have to go to war, burn the house down and get it over fast.
Re: Achilles:
The opponents of tariffs should be supporting Trump. They know his goals are to lower tariffs around the world and to lower the barriers globally on US made products.
Most countries have very low tariffs, targeted on specific industries (similar to, e.g., the longstanding 25% "chicken tax" on trucks imported to the US, dating back to the 1960s). The main barriers to US products are just regulatory compliance (similar to the US), cost performance ratio, and hyper-nationalistic consumers. That's why the White House statement goes on about "non-tariff" barriers (although it also calls them "non-monetary tariffs") -- those are real obstacles. But the White House also goes on about regressive taxation (by which I think Trump just means VAT taxes) driving down domestic consumption. Okay, I guess, but even if foreign governments repealed their VAT taxes, I don't think foreign markets would suddenly expand and create huge new opportunities for American exports. They'd make small new opportunities, most of which would promptly be taken by exports from other countries whose products offer better cost performance.
"Smoot-Hawley turned a recession into a long depression that required a devastating war to get out."
Quit lying. You're smart enough to know this completely false. For interested in the truth: The USA depression started in October 1929, long before Smoot Hawley was put in place. Further, S/H dealt with imports. Not exports. People weren't unemployed because we IMPORTED fewer goods. And exports? Well they chugged along at about 5% of GDP throughout the 1910s/1920s/1930s/1940s - with the expected breaks for 1917-1919 (USA participation in WW 1) and June 1940- June1946 (WW II & aftermath).
Some foreigners retaliated against US Goods in the 1930s because of Smoot Hawley, but any decline in exports mainly occured because these countries were in a depression too. Or in the case of Japan, France, USSR, Germany, Italy, were rearming for WW II.
Batya, I like the cut of your jib
BTW, after WW 1, we had the largest auto industry in the world. Our autos weren't just cheaper, they were equal or better than anyone elses. But sadly, the rest of world weren't "smart" like our 21st century losertarians. They didn't help their "consumers". Instead they forced the USA auto makers to build auto plants in their country. And put on tarriffs that allowed them to maintain their own automobile companies.
But gosh, they were so stooopid. LOL!
Stellantis was already having serious problems in the US, long before Trump was elected.
…like leadership dumb enough to hire the firm that told them Stellantis was a good name and took their advice…
Everyone seems to be ignoring the role of currency exchange rates.
To What Extent Are Tariffs Offset By Exchange Rates? Olivier Jeanne and Jeongwon Son
NBER Working Paper No. 27654
August 2020, Revised December 2021
ABSTRACT
In theory, we should expect tariffs to be partially offset by a currency appreciation in the tariff- imposing country or by a depreciation in the country on which the tariff is imposed. We find, based on a calibrated model, that the tariffs imposed by the US in 2018-19 should not have had a large impact on the dollar but may have significantly depreciated the renminbi. This prediction is consistent with a high-frequency event analysis looking at the impact of tariff-related news on the dollar and the renminbi. We find that tariffs explained at most one fifth of the dollar effective appreciation but around two thirds of the renminbi effective depreciation observed in 2018-19.
The truth about tariffs is that we have no earthly idea how Trump's Gambit is going to play out. Just because it didn't work in the 1930s doesn't mean the same effects will result today because the entire economic structure of the world is completely different. It's not even the same solar system as the 30s
..I agree with Howard..
My big deal vis a vis tariffs is security. Not "economic" security but security security. Am I willing to pay higher prices if our medical supply chain is domestically based? You bet. Am I willing to pay higher prices if our defense industry is not buying integrated circuits from our potential enemy? Absolutely. Am I willing to pay higher prices so that our navy is built at home with American steel? 100%.
"Everyone seems to be ignoring the role of currency exchange rates."
And that isn't the only offset to inflation rates.
Let's say tariffs cause the price of washing machines to go from $1,000 to $1,100. We buy about 6 million per year and so it will cost an extra $600 million per year, or about $2 per person per year in the US. Let's also say, it causes a new plant to open in the US, which makes 1 million units per year and employs 3,000 US workers. If they make $100 thousand per year, this is $300 million. So, as a nation, we are $300 million poorer than we were before.
This is the basic economics argument for free trade.
There's a tired old leftist talking-point, which goes something like, I don't mind paying more tax if it allows the poor to live in dignity. By dignity, they mean some form of welfare. Let me rebut their argument with, I don't mind paying an extra $100 every ten or fifteen years, so that an extra 3,000 American workers can have a decent life in the United States.
Real dignity isn't having a roof over your head and plenty to eat. Real dignity is working and providing a roof and providing plenty to eat.
For my leftist friends. If it makes you happy, just consider tariffs as a national sales tax on imported goods. It's a tax, you love taxes!
"I don't mind paying an extra $100 every ten or fifteen years, so that an extra 3,000 American workers can have a decent life in the United States."
Me neither.
Wow, I'm a lefty! Never imagined that would happen.
I have a question. Why can't America produce steel competitively? I don't know the answer, but would love to know.
He caused this.
What did he cause? Be specific.
Instead of running around with your hair on fire, why can't you give this a few days (at least) to see how it plays out?
Prices are going to go up and in 26 and 28 voters are going to take it out on Republicans.
And if that doesn't happen, will you admit you were wrong and shut your piehole?
Well Don did it! He got the biggest grift plan of his presidency off the ground and now just have to wait for the 180 different countries to call him and beg him for a cut rate on his tax plan.You know Well if you cut our amount of tariffs there ould be omething good in it for you.No Congress or oversite so he can milk his way out in next 4 yers,keep playing more and mor golf,maybe start couple wars and not give a flying Fuk.He got er done! He didnt hire incompetent people becaus eof their incompetency it was to show evryone tht they would have no balls to go against anything he does, BRILLIANT/ Repubs have surrendered Long live the King. (well at least 3.6 more years. The National TAX day was a complete sucess,1600 dow plunge,groceries"you aint seen nothing yet,for all you ALDI shoppers good luckyou'll have even less choices of inferior brand substance. Wanted that new F150 only be $16000 more today should have pulled trigger yesterday at 400(announcement made after markets closed) Just like a Friday news dump so the unaware stay that way. Beauitiful trump starting firing of national security dummies,you had to see that coming and the investigation that they said was over is just beginning LAURA LOOMER to the rescue international white knucklehead.
The collective CULT/mob ruled left do not have any credibility.
The sewer rush of endless lies, fake drama, and bullshit... = Zero credibility.
The democrat party killed American steel production decades ago.
My father used to manufacture large products made out of steel. US made factory. Finding good American made steel was next to impossible.
Re Original Mike:
I have a question. Why can't America produce steel competitively? I don't know the answer, but would love to know.
I don't know the answer, but I think I can see pieces of the answer.
First, my impression is that due to the low cost of electricity, US electric arc furnaces (vs traditional blast furnaces) are very competitive with overseas mills. Nucor makes various steel products in the US using EAFs, and isn't on the verge of financial collapse or anything (that I know). Meanwhile, US steelmakers who use blast furnaces (which are better for making products like steel plate) are in more precarious condition (e.g. Cleveland Cliffs, which has had steadily declining net income and a significant loss last year, although they don't exclusively use blast furnaces, so it may not be blast furnaces' fault).
Second, while there are steel mills in comparatively high cost countries like Japan, they generally seem to have a competitive edge on product differentiation and quality for more specialised products like grain-oriented electrical steel for transformer cores or just higher grades of steel. They make basic hot-rolled steel and other commodity steel products too, of course, but if that were all they were making, and they were competing globally with mills like BaoSteel in low cost markets, they would probably be in trouble. American mills are technically capable of producing specialty steels as well (AK Steel, owned by Cleveland Cliffs makes electrical steel, for example), but the formerly gigantic US steel industry wasn't built around capacity for specialised products -- it was built to churn out huge volumes of bog standard steel plate. And my impression is that for a variety of reasons, US steel manufacturers were slow to adapt and shift capacity to higher value products.
What's more, once you cut capacity and shut down a blast furnace (in contrast, I think, to an electrical arc furnace) it can be very expensive to restart. So there's a certain amount of path dependence here, where old line US steelmakers are stuck with expensive, antiquated plants and blast furnaces they either need to run at a loss or shut down and write off. Meanwhile, new construction plants (e.g. the joint venture by Arcelor Mittal and Nippon Steel down in Alabama) seem more promising, although checking the news, the electric arc furnace for that particular plant still doesn't seem to be online, and the facility is just finishing steel products.
Inga said...
So, how are everyone’s 401Ks today? Looking good? It’s just a small sacrifice, not to worry.
About where it was at the high point of the Biden administration?
dbp said...
Let's say tariffs cause the price of washing machines to go from $1,000 to $1,100. We buy about 6 million per year and so it will cost an extra $600 million per year, or about $2 per person per year in the US. Let's also say, it causes a new plant to open in the US, which makes 1 million units per year and employs 3,000 US workers. If they make $100 thousand per year, this is $300 million. So, as a nation, we are $300 million poorer than we were before.
Aren't you forgetting the upstream US industries who also benefit from domestic production?
1,000,000 units x $1,100 = $1,100,000,000 - $600,000,000 = +$500,000,000?
Thanks, Balfegor - If our domestic industry needs protection to retool, we should do that. We need to be able to make steel in quantity.
Inga said..."So, how are everyone’s 401Ks today? Looking good? It’s just a small sacrifice, not to worry."
Were you planning on cashing out today, Inga?
401Ks go up and down all the time.
The left want to terrify everyone... because hivemind instructions.
Stocks Suffer Biggest One-Day Wipeout In Value Since March 2020 ~ WSJ
NASDAQ plunges 6% S&P tumble nearly 5% after Trump tariff blitz; Dow slide 1679 points
Worst day on Wall Street since Trump’s first term. 🤡
The market has been overvalued since the great Biden asset price inflation. All that hot money needed a place to go and you can especially see it push the NASDAQ higher in the 5Y chart.
As a result, I've been largely in cash, with decent interest rates believing a correction was inevitable and that tariff talk would likely be the catalyst.
It was hard watching the market go up from the sidelines, but this correction was already baked in. I'm still not convinced we've reached a bottom support level.
BUMBLE BEE said...
Who amongst us here started their working life pumping gas?
I started out delivering newspapers as soon as I was old enough in NJ. All the through to HS graduation in 1973. At the time- the paperboy (and rarely, girl) rounded up customers, delivered the papers, and gave the district manager the paper's share of the money collected. IIRC- it was a like a 50/50 split. It was a long time ago. Sometime in the 1980s I noticed my papers were being delivered on a waling route by an adult. And when I moved here I was on a motor route, so they were delivered by an adult. I haven't seen, even in urban areas, a teenager delivering newspapers in over a decade. A true entry level job that no longer exists that taught many of the basics of running your own business, including hustling. Started out with 29 customers. Without increasing the length of my route- was over 100 when I left. And the route was split in two- seems they couldn't find anyone else to deliver 100... The paper didn't sign up those additional customers, I did.
Josephbleau said...
...I would pay more for quality, but once you break the system like the globalists did, it’s hard to go back. No, you won't, even though you say you will, the "you" referring to the mass of customers who say they will. They won't do it for "Made in America" either. For a lot of things- it makes no sense to opt for higher quality. Particularly clothing. I counted the other day after buying 3 sets of clearance sweat pants at $2.99 each. I have over a dozen pairs. Of different wrights and fabrics. I wear them as sleepwear. At age 69, if I never buy another pair, I have enough to last a lifetime. T-shirts for wearing around? Between Scouts and blood donations, message T-shirts, and novelty ones bought for me by my better half (think Marvin the Martian and similar...) I likely have >100. In good shape, that fit. I'm still upset she threw away my HS track team T-shirt just because it had a few holes in it...
There are some things that the USA, as a maritime nation, needs, and doesn't have because of how the world economy works- it's not an even playing field. One, we need shipbuilding capacity. Two- we need ships that are owned and operated by US companies manned with US mariners, available as reserve fleet for our Navy. Three, we need a larger Navy then the one we have now.
We no longer have spare shipbuilding capacity because of overseas labor costs. The biggest factor. And because ships registered under foreign flags need to meet international standards, not tougher US standards.
We have few US owned, operated, and manned merchants because of higher operating and ship acquisition costs because of US safety standards and mariner costs. Our mariners get paid more.
And our too small Navy? Blame politicians and Navy leadership. We could be pumping out Ticonderoga class cruisers, still superior to what other Navies have, a few a year, updating the weapons and electronic suites incrementally. But instead we built the overpriced and worthless LCS ships- Navy nickname Little Crappy ships, and the near worthless Zumwalt class.
One big question is- how do we build a safe and professional merchant marine industry that's competitive with foreign merchant marines under a free trade system? Answer- we can't. Period. End of discussion. If we want it, we have to subsidize it. Each ship subsidized being part of the US strategic reserve. All ship's officers holding an inactive commission in the USCG or USN. With crew wages and shipbuilding costs subsidized, the shipping companies can absorb the rest of the operating costs and be competitive. As part of our strategic reserve fleet, if headed into pirate filled waters- they could carry a Marine squad with appropriate weapons... So part of the shipbuilding process would include a small Marine berthing area and armory, which, most of the time, would be unutilized.
Off the top of my head, that's the only industry that would require direct subsidies to operate. Indirect, IOW, tariffs, ain't gonna cut it.
Kakistocracy said...
Stocks Suffer Biggest One-Day Wipeout In Value Since March 2020 ~ WSJ
NASDAQ plunges 6% S&P tumble nearly 5% after Trump tariff blitz; Dow slide 1679 points
Worst day on Wall Street since Trump’s first term.
Nobody cares about your inflated asset prices Rich. You obviously can't comprehend what we are saying.
Nobody in the working class wants the government to print money and drive asset prices up. Working class people want asset prices down and they want to be able to buy the things they need with their paycheck.
The working class does not want high income taxes and high taxes on companies they work for.
They want taxes on thing made in other countries.
They want the government to stop printing money and jacking up asset prices.
I know you are at some level just being a dishonest troll because nobody is as stupid as you are letting on here.
"Anyone, Anyone?" from Ferris Bueller.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhiCFdWeQfA
"Ohio-based steelmaker Cleveland-Cliffs announced last week that it was laying off 600 workers in Michigan and 630 in Minnesota in order to mitigate falling demand due to Trump’s tariffs."
Anyone care to guess how many of these 1230 laid-off workers voted for Trump?
@ Wince: People said Liz Truss was wrong too.
I've been out of equities since January following the path of Warren Buffet. I'll return to equities when Trump's recession and stagflation hits in 2026. By then I expect the market will have dropped to around 20%.
Trillions wiped off the value of US pensions today. That's what people think about tariffs and the direction in which Trump is taking the US. That's been some 24-hours from Trump's tariff announcement to initial reaction.
This is a 100% unforced error from this administration....
Jeebus! The markets are down. To the real players that means
everything is on sale. Time to buy.
Amateurs and trolls piss their panties.
Kak, of course, is soaked.
Re: Original Mike:
Thanks, Balfegor - If our domestic industry needs protection to retool, we should do that. We need to be able to make steel in quantity.
I am . . . skeptical that domestic steel producers, at least those that are US owned, will actually do that. They received protection with Bush II's steel tariffs in 2002, Trump's first term tariffs in 2018, and all the duties imposed in various anti-dumping investigations over the decades. They took the temporary financial relief while they had it and then ended up right back in the same position as before. You can give them the opportunity, but you can't make them take the risk. At this point, I think you would need new leadership (and, ideally, new and more flexible union contracts -- or no union at all, like Nucor) to actually take advantage of the opportunity provided by protection.
This is why Donald Trump and the MAGA commentariat on Althouse don’t engage in stock tickers or figures. Liberal or conservative, equities movement showcases unfiltered and unadulterated evidence of what people do when THEIR money is on the table.
BUMBLE BEE said...
Jeebus! The markets are down. To the real players that means
everything is on sale. Time to buy.
Amateurs and trolls piss their panties.
Pretty much.
But there are always idiots who don't really know how asset markets work. They are on the same intellectual level as people who blame god or global warming for natural disasters.
Kak - like openly hoping for Tesla stock tank - by a governor who runs a state that is heavily invested in Tesla Stock - named Tim Walz.
Unions killed the American Steel Industry.
Corruptocratic cultists are praying hard for destruction.
Same types who key Teslas - on instruction and high command.
Batya Sargon-Unger is a fool and misinformed. If the issue is Fentanyl, you don't need to impose tariffs on most of the world, just China, Mexico and maybe Canada. The lost middle class is not coming back. When the Republicans get shellacked in two years and Trump is completely hamstrung, we will see how much this accomplished. I voted for Trump, he was the less bad alternative. Someone said the power to tax is the power to destroy and many small business will be destroyed by the tariffs. Whether there will be enough onshoring to make up for this remains to be seen. There is a certain class of people that will follow Trump off a cliff. I am not one of them.
papper: "I voted for Trump, he was the less bad alternative. "
Also papper: "There is a certain class of people that will follow Trump off a cliff. I am not one of them."
Trump has been speaking about trade imbalance/tariff inequity publicly for 40+ years and he explicitly campaigned on implementing these policies in 2015/2016 and 2021 to 2024.
X
"Hiring Accelerates in March Despite Tariff Hysteria.
Private-sector job growth accelerated in March, according to data released Wednesday by ADP, countering gloomy predictions that tariffs would slam the brakes on the labor market. Instead, hiring came in stronger than expected, with 155,000 jobs added across the U.S. economy—even as corporate media and left-leaning economists warn daily of a looming slowdown.
Professional and business services led the way with 57,000 new jobs, followed by financial activities with 38,000 and manufacturing with 21,000.
“Despite policy uncertainty and downbeat consumers, the bottom line is this: The March topline number was a good one for the economy and employers of all sizes, if not necessarily all sectors,” said Nela Richardson, ADP’s chief economist.
The March figure sharply outpaced February’s upwardly revised 84,000, and beat Wall Street’s consensus forecast of 120,000.
In other words, despite the policy “uncertainty” and alleged “downbeat” consumer mood cited by critics of the Trump administration’s trade agenda, businesses kept hiring at a healthy clip." "
oops. bad news for dems.
Biden's fake numbers were all massaged - most of that hiring was tax payer funded government jobs.
Little in the way of alternative strategies suggested here or anywhere else. Just endless reasons why we should do nothing and accept the inevitable collapse of our country with the status quo. So many willing to keep marching toward a cliff and refusing to even look left or right. Trump alone offers us a real alternative, a chance. We. Shall. See.
"The stock market is unique – it cannot be indicted, arrested or deported; it cannot be intimidated, threatened or bullied; it has no gender, ethnicity or religion; it cannot be fired, furloughed or defunded; it cannot be primaried before the next midterm elections and it cannot be seized, nationalized or invaded. It’s the ultimate voting machine, reflecting prospects for earnings growth, stability, liquidity, inflation, taxation and predictable rule of law." ~ Michael Cembalist (JPMorgan)
The stock market can be easily manipulated. Just print money. Anything you do that causes inflation will inflate assets and stocks are assets. Inflation is a huge benefit to the rich.
The rich benefit from rising prices and depressing wages. Call it Warren Buffet economics.
papper said...
Batya Sargon-Unger is a fool and misinformed. If the issue is Fentanyl, you don't need to impose tariffs on most of the world, just China, Mexico and maybe Canada. The lost middle class is not coming back. When the Republicans get shellacked in two years and Trump is completely hamstrung, we will see how much this accomplished. I voted for Trump, he was the less bad alternative. Someone said the power to tax is the power to destroy and many small business will be destroyed by the tariffs. Whether there will be enough onshoring to make up for this remains to be seen. There is a certain class of people that will follow Trump off a cliff. I am not one of them.
Oh look.
It is one of those mysterious unicorn "reluctant" Trump voter that opposes everything Trump does and calls Trump supporters names.
Totally realistic there dude. Everyone believes this persona you created and post with on online forums.
Democrats are just stupid people if they think this will work.
"Oh look.
It is one of those mysterious unicorn "reluctant" Trump voter that opposes everything Trump does and calls Trump supporters names.
Totally realistic there dude. Everyone believes this persona you created and post with on online forums.
Democrats are just stupid people if they think this will work."
Nice try, but wrong. I voted for Trump in 2016, 2020 and 2024. I voted for Republicans before that. I have never voted for a Democrat for Governor, Senator, Congressman or President. There are lots of reasons that I voted for Trump, including border security. When you vote for someone, there is a balancing act because no candidate completely lines up with your views. I think many Trump voters wanted the border security, deregulation, DOGE, scaling back of DEI, energy security and other stuff. Some may have wanted the tariffs. Those are the Democrats that he has been wooing. Not the historic Republican voters. There are some who think Trump is just a genius and this will all work out. I believe in G-d, not Trump. Trump makes mistakes and isn't right about everything. We'll see how this works out. If there is a Republican bloodbath in 2024 and he can't accomplish anything in his last two years in office, whatever policies he rammed through now will be short lived.
There is a broader point. A tariff is a tax. Congress is supposed to vote on taxes. A president cannot universally impose a tax. The so called emergency is no stronger than Biden's supposed justifications for the student loan forgiveness. We'll see if these tariffs withstand court review. It won't be difficult to find someone with standing to sue (and they already have). Biden (or whoever was acting on his behalf) was hoping to get away with the illegal loan forgiveness by arguing that no one had standing to sue.
Yes papper. They're a tax on foreign trade. Which falls in the executive wheelhouse. He is not proposing a tariff on domestic production. In which case the congress would be involved. If the offending countrys want the tariffs to go away all they have to do is quit taxing our products. We've sacrificed enough for their prosperity.
Rusty, it is a tax on American consumers and American businesses. This is not just foreign policy.
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