Said Joel Grey, quoted in "The Yesteryear Issue/‘Good God, It Was Fun!’/Barbra Streisand, Liza Minnelli, Dick Van Dyke, and more legends of Broadway reprise their most memorable characters" (NY Magazine).
He created a brilliant role and made "Cabaret" what it is, but you could never do that today. You couldn't suddenly surprise the other actors by groping them lewdly... even if it was all for art.
For the annals of Things I Asked Grok... I wrote:
2. This actually happened — in the mid-1960s — if we are to believe Joel Grey's description of creating the role of the emcee in "Cabaret"....3. I'm a little surprised to see him telling this story now, because there are plenty of people — and A.I. machines — who are out there ready to frame this as sexual harassment and to demonize him.4. I can't tell from the quote if the actresses were informed and gave consent, but it would seem that they were already cast in their roles. It would be a surprise just to be told this is the actor's experiment and your role suddenly involves enduring this treatment and reacting in some way that fits your character's situation.
I'm protecting you from the writings of A.I. by just giving you only the questions I framed. You can answer the questions yourself. But to read Grok's answers, go here.
ADDED: Notice that Grey says he "hated... all these crummy emcees... such creeps." He was not, as he tells it, gratifying his own desires. He was taking on the behavior of crummy, creepy people he hated. And it made him, as he tells, ashamed. He "hid behind a flat."
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42 comments:
In the not too distant future, another generation will start groping one another in public as a sign of rebellion. It will be couched in feminist terms, as all things must be.
He's 92. He doesn't care.
They could have used an "intimacy coordinator."
Given that Joel Grey is a homosexual, he could easily get away with groping all the actresses in lewd ways. I've worked in the theater, and gay men tend to be that way and get away with it. I a straight man certainly could not.
The world was not yet ready for pussy hats.
Yeah. He was doing what he hated for his art. Sure.
Joel Grey's another one of these 2nd rank talents that became famous because he got "the role of a lifetime". As you would expect, he had "connections" in show business and more or coasted on those for the last 50 years.
He talks to us about other actors, but I doubt those actors talked about Joel Grey.
Anyway, given the times, (cf. the butter chick and Brando) I'm sure the actresses weren't told ahead of time. Grey just did it, and since it "worked for the show", the actresses said zero.
But once we get this ridiculous contrast between the feminist trope of the woman as tough guys. They fight in combat and outcompete any man (i am women hear me roar) and their other trope that women are fragile prorcielen (sic) dolls who will shatter into a million emotional pieces if you dare to touch them.
We don't have any more movies like Caberet anymore. Is that a bad thing?
BTW, I thought Grey was the "MC" but then I looked it up, and my first impression was wrong.
I saw it twice. Once with Alan Cummings and once with whoever played with Teri Hatcher. Cummings inflections were so weird, like Walken without the camp. It was confusing to me. The other guy was flat. I get you’re supposed to act dead inside but…
Makes me long for the bad old 60s again. When this kind of thing would not cause an international incident. It was just...another day at work.
Moral discoveries have been made since then. Coleridge used "moral discoveries" to mock moral discoveries, as they pretended to be analogous to the science of the day.
I asked Grok the question from #1:
"If a stage actor like Joel Grey were to engage in that kind of behavior today—experimenting with a character by being deliberately lewd, touching actresses inappropriately, and pushing boundaries in a way that’s meant to disgust—it’d spark a firestorm. In 2025, the cultural climate’s hyper-aware of consent, workplace boundaries, and power dynamics, especially in the arts. What might’ve been shrugged off as "method acting" or "edgy interpretation" decades ago wouldn’t fly now."
Current state, probably so. If the radical leftists succeed in their hostile takeover, the elites will once again have carte blanche to do whatever they wish, with impunity.
Women have discovered that men are confirmed as stronger, faster and smarter, so have a lot to complain about.
And this is why CGI actresses will be a thing as soon as possible. They won't complain no matter what degradation they are forced to represent.
1. Saw a local theatre troupe do Cabaret a few months ago and the emcee character emulated Grey's character, perhaps not as lewdly. A lot of it was like the old game "let's see how close I can get to your [hand, breast, etc.] without actually touching it."
2. In 1980 I saw Liza live at the Hollywood bowl and among her friends who showed up to cheer her on, and to a lesser extent perform with her, was Joel Grey.
3. That is also my preferred spelling of the color grey.
As fate would have it, I just re-watched Cabaret about a week ago, for the first time in decades. It was a trip.
I read through the Grok answers. They're pretty sophisticated. Grok effortlessly knows that Grey is 92, that none of the actresses were on record at the time as objecting to his behavior, that mores if not morals were different. Grok knows quite a lot and advances reasonable positions. I guess that's the problem. Human positions are not uniformly reasonable....I would guess that women are more accepting of lewd behavior from gays (and attractive men) than from standard issue men. I guess you could include this irrationality in the prompts, but can AI generate its own irrationality.
And this is why CGI actresses will be a thing as soon as possible.
God no. Perfection is not as interesting as nature, which is rarely the perfect ideal, and when it is it is only momentary. Teri Garr, who recently passed, had an intriguing beauty that was not IMO the standard kind for example.
Caberet is the sort of thing Gays and women like more than straight men. I'm trying to remember the movie and all i can remember is Liza M. looking mousey, and some English actor playing a bi-sexual. And of course, Nazis and Jews. Liza was a great singer, but a beauty she wasnt.
Did they let him grab 'em by the pussy?
"4. I can't tell from the quote if the actresses were informed and gave consent, but it would seem that they were already cast in their roles. It would be a surprise just to be told this is the actor's experiment and your role suddenly involves enduring this treatment and reacting in some way that fits your character's situation."
I wonder the same thing about actresses going topless in some movies.
Not complaining, just curious.
"The Emcee is some poor jerk in Germany who’s all by himself, sort of a drunk and probably, you know, into other drugs."
When I first saw that headline I thought the article was going to be about the current state of the Democratic Party.
Keep women affordable, available, reusable, and taxable, and the "burden" of evidence sequestered in sanctuary states. #NoJudgment #NoLabels #HateLovesAbortion
The first rule of social liberal club...
I saw Alan Cumming 10 years ago on Broadway and I recall him being extremely lewd and "grabby" but primarily (exclusively? I forget) with men. He was weird and unnerving, which is what the Emcee is supposed to be. And then, at the end of the play, you see him waiting for the train to the camps with a pink triangle on his coat and he's just a sad, very vulnerable little man. It was pretty effective.
I don't much care for the movie since it removes all the non-diegetic songs. It's barely a musical.
50+ years ago I had a dear friend who was handsome and very gay. He was in that first generation who were out, loud and proud. And, he attracted the most beautiful women I'd ever seen. He designated me his wingman for - to use his term - the "fag hags" whom he couldn't peel off. I was the foil that he would tell them "go fuck Hero" (his nickname for me ). And on occasion they would. The would do anything for Ben. It was amazing the power he had over these straight women and the liberties they allowed him.. Even in those hedonistic years of the 70's I would never assume to even ask much less order. The decade of "Cabaret" and the late '20's of Berlin it was modeled on were of another time and place that we won't see the likes of again. But what Joel says rings true even if he was ashamed where my friend Ben was not.
It didn't get a lot of attention (wasn't renewed for a 3rd season) but I really liked The Old Man, which starred Jeff Bridges and John Lithgow. Joel Grey had a small but very important role.
Probably says a lot about my GenX age, but when I hear about Joel Grey I think about Jennifer Grey, his daughter. And of course how her nose job was a bad decision, a situation where she took bad advice from people and lost her distinctive look.
Guys, it’s “Cabaret”, not “Caberet”. Surprised your spellchecks don’t catch that.
Mostly I remember “Tomorrow Belongs to Me”, a song to bring out your inner Musk.
Finding out after years that Joel Grey is gay: big surprise, or "ho-hum, what else is new"?
Cabaret is the sort of thing Gays and women like more than straight men.
Well, musicals sure, but the Nazi, WWII-adjacent angle gives Cabaret more interest for straight guys than usual. The 1920s gangster-adjacent angle didn't quite work for Chicago with the guys.
Ficta: "I saw Alan Cumming 10 years ago on Broadway and I recall him being extremely lewd and "grabby" but primarily (exclusively? I forget) with men."
One summer in NYC I was doing a Navy gig and I made the mistake of not changing out of my "summer whites" navy uniform before taking my wife to see Caberet with Alan Cumming. Our table was smack dab in the middle of the theater, right along the well trod path of the flow of the play...and it was....interesting to say the least. "Grabby" doesnt begin to describe it.
yes he was good on that, as the deep state superior to lithgow,
who was running the op on the afghan warlord, modeled on
a real life character,
Cabaret 'borrowed' largely on the works of christopher isherwood, which celebrated the license of weimar, but ignored
the real consequences of the regime, which caused the backlash
I loved Joel Grey in Remo Williams. He played a Korean
Look, Joel Grey is as gay as a box of birds. The only potentially dicey situation described in that anecdote is this one; "Hal walked up to me, and he put his arm around me,".
My favorite story from the piece: Tommy Tune and Twiggy in "My One and Only." He is perhaps an example of the Broadway star who can sing, dance, and act; often there is a compromise somewhere. Twiggy has to be taught to dance, and Tommy does a lot of teaching. Their best number is tap-dancing on water. It becomes so famous they are invited over to Blighty for the Queen's birthday to do this number. They take the Concorde over and back, cab from JFK to the theatre, just in time for the show. They meet people in line, who cheer them. "Just give us a few minutes to put on our costumes, and we'll be right with you." The intimacy of Broadway stars and their fans; a bit like country music stars.
I'd recommend a reading of "Sex and the Single Girl" by Helen Gurley Brown as a measure of female attitudes to mashing in the mid-60's.
Mostly I remember “Tomorrow Belongs to Me”, a song to bring out your inner Musk.
That song makes me want to start singing “The Battle Hymn of the Republic.”
and recall Berlin was the prog holdout compared to the rest of the country,
Cabaret's composer, John Kander, is still alive at 98. His great-nephew is in politics in Missouri and used him as a prop a few years back.
Dick Van Dyke will be 100 years old in December. His Broadway experience was primarily in the original "Bye, Bye, Birdie" and a revival production of "The Music Man" (mostly on tour). He would have been fun in Joel Grey's roles (and vice versa).
"I'm a little surprised to see him telling this story now..."
He wrote about it in his book "Master of Ceremonies: A Memoir" in 1996.
2016. Sorry.
The original male lead in Cabaret was Bert Convy, who went on to TV fame as a cheesy but likable game host in the late '70s.
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