Said Marina Novelli, the director of the Sustainable Travel and Tourism Advanced Research Center at the University of Nottingham, quoted in "Bans, Fees, Taxes. Can Anything Stop Overtourism? Efforts to limit visitors in tourist hot spots have had mixed results, at best. Competing interests have a way of impeding attempts to stem the tide" (NYT).
My idea is to work toward the old Yogi-ism: "Nobody goes there anymore, it's too crowded."
From the comments over there: "The first times I visited Venice was 1963. The last time I visited Venice was in 2010. In 1963 It was possible to have your companion take a picture of you in front of Saint Marks feeding the pigeons with the cathedral in the background. In 2010 the pigeons had been replaced by people and I don't [think] it was possible to take a picture of anything."
The people-as-pigeons are people you won't want to rub elbows with. They are, as one says, nobodies.
Do birds have elbows?
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62 comments:
Not sure of birds with elbows but I know dolphins have a pelvis.
Althouse community members are all invited to visit Nebraska’s Sandhills rivers this summer. You can canoe, kayak, tube or tank the following: Niobrara, Middle Loup, Dismal and Calamus.
The Niobrara is the best and the next best is the Middle Loup. Just do NOT go past Rocky Ford on the Niobrara. I did and I could have been killed in the Norden Chute.
Back in 2005 I was with a documentary crew in Croatia. As a bonus. We were offered a one day trip to either Venice or Dubrovnik. I was the only one who opted for Dubrovnik and hence I went to Venice. I thought it was a dump.
Paris struck me as a slum in 1960. Vienna was okay. There were very modern German cities.
"Do birds have elbows?"
Yes.
How about "rubbing feathers?" instead? Birds don't like rubbing feathers with their neighbors, which is why the nests of colonial seabirds like the albatrosses are so uniformly spaced, and the fossil nests of hadrosaurs, for that matter.
A lot of my tourism is watching the art produced by other countries.
I feel like I know quite a bit about France and Italy and Japan, because I love Truffaut, Godard, Varda, Fellini, Kurosawa and Ozu.
You can go to those countries and walk around in a museum. Or, if you're lazy like me, you can stay at home at watch some amazing art here!
As a very small part of the international tourism industry, I see lots of historic cities imposing restrictions on how close to tourist sites buses can travel, which mostly just inconveniences older travelers and those with mobility issues. Also many fees, taxes, surcharges . . . which are never high enough to actually accomplish the supposed goal of reducing tourism but do make a tidy new source of revenue for the governmental grifters to split up. (See NYC, congestion fee.)
I once visited Venice but I didn't know the buildings are floating on giant balloons until I saw Casino Royale.
The Instagram tourism trend (pursue selfies at the known hot spots) was quite evident when we were in the UK last year. Lines to get into the parking lot of at the famous spots or best known photo locations ... possibly our favorite (deserted) ancient site we visited was courtesy of the local guy walking his dog when I was loading our suitcases into the boot.
As we spent half a week in a popular seaside spot, we marveled at the people trying to hit 6 places in a single day as they couldn't bear 'not seeing it all'. We skipped a couple of those spots, as our B&B hosts were more than happy to send us to quiet locations away from the madding crowd.
The commenter's point - I went to Venice yearly for more than four decades, sometimes more than once per year. Now all these f**king hicks are spoiling my right to be the only one at St Mark's (well, except, of course, for someone to document my royal visit on camera). Why doesn't everyone just know their place so I can sight see in peace?
There's a reason German cities are so modern.
Travel is still OK. But if you have seen a thousand magazine pictures of a place, it's going to be devalued to you anyway, plus it's going to be extremely crowded. Not to mention that the Chinese can now afford to travel in large numbers, which wasn't always the case when they were an impoverished country.
Isn't tourism an important part of their economy? Any plan with what to do with the effected hotels, B-N-Bs, restaurants, airlines, trains and busses? And tourists eat so there will also be a negative effect on agriculture.
I'm doing my part to stem the tide.
Venice in late October on a Tuesday morning was wonderful to. We always travel off season. And it's not because of cost. In the off season you can actually meet people and become friends. We have friends we me from around the world visit us in Florida.
if you go to a REALLY Crowded national park, like Yellowstone, or Yosemite; and you WALK about a quarter mile past a full parking lot, you will find peace and quiet. Just a quarter mile, that's ALL it takes to lose about 99% of the people. I've Never had any desire to see any dirty flooded sunken European cesspools, so i wouldn't know (or care) about crowds there.
My GUESS is: if you go to a City, there are Probably a lot of people.
I hiked ten miles yesterday, here in iowa; and i DID see *TWO* people while hiking.. They smiled and said: "hello"
How can someone argue there is “over tourism” but deny there is such a thing as over illegal immigration?
"Paris struck me as a slum in 1960. Vienna was okay. There were very modern German cities."
It is much much worse today. As little as 15 years ago the traffic margins were filled with N. African migrants and their mattresses. There are now entire sections of the arrondissements that are no-go areas, and even parts of the central city itself.
Limits on head count work…
Do birds have elbows?
Not in Buffalo. Not this time year.
I recently spent three weeks traveling to Mediterranean cities; it was chilly some days but we did avoid the summer "over-touristed" crush. Lots of signs in windows and on walls saying "No more tour buses" and "No more tourists." If you're trying to live a normal life, the sentiment is understandable, but a huge number of people do make their living from tourism. I didn't take a single picture on the trip, and tried to be un-touristy. After standing in line at a pharmacy, listening to a rude American haranguing the clerk, I felt embarrassed. When it was my turn, I politely asked the clerk if he spoke English before proceeding. We both knew he did, but he appreciated it. If we could convince tourists to tread more softly and quietly, some of the animus would go away. I don't enjoy the selfie-taking hordes any more than the locals do.
I guarantee St. Mark's hasn't run out of pigeons. You can go nowhere in Venice without seeing pigeons. They're a cancer.
Yes, as many here have suggested, travel off-season and off-hours. I had some great jogs around Venice at 7 am in early spring, Couldnt go inside anything or buy any souvenirs, but got to see the outsides of fhe landmarks. I’m not s big photographer, but i saw other runners stop every so often to take unobstructed pics. Also got to exchange buongiorno’s with native runners (although they always seemed surprised - saying hi to strangers, even fellow runners, is apparently not a Northern Italian thing).
Calculating exactly when to hit a museum is also part of the science of travel. Sometime a little after opening, when the line of other early birds has died down, is often ideal. Also look into joining the museum so you can skip the lines. The membership fee is usually leas than a pair of timed tickets, and nowadays you can join online before you leave home. I got into the Vermeer exhibit at the Rijksmuseum that way. Lots of countries have culture passes that get you into multiple musums, castles, etc.
JSM
Paris is still nice if you go to the right spots. Venice should be visited once. No need to fight through crowds to see it twice. How many of these knew tourists are Indians or Chinese? They've gotten richer in the last 20 years and there are billions of them.
This type of tourism used to be limited to the top .1%
Unless you were lucky enough to be a member of the military stationed at an exotic location.
Global affluence now enables the top 10% to engage in occasional tourism of this type.
We need to increase prices exponentially so that once again only the top .1% can contribute to global warming with worldwide tourism.
This is a "problem" with a market driven solution. Raise prices, decrease numbers, probably make even more $$ off the rich upper crust of tourists. If the plebes scream, give them one Tuesday a month at 10% reduced prices.
Exactly correct, raise the tax on hotel rooms by 100%. If not high enough 200%. Keep going until something breaks, then back off.
People went to Venice to feed pigeons?
Rome in December. As a co-worker commented ahead of my trip, "You're going to a major world city, not to the beach."
Wince; there is No Place for facts, or logic here!
the use facts, or logic, will JUST confuse these people.
But, the Simple answer IS: Brown people GOOD! white people BAD!!!
"There were very modern German cities."
courtesy of the 8th Air Force (and Bomber Command)..
you should SEE the urban renewal that the 20th Air Force did in Japan!
Twenty years ago my hubby and I went to Germany. We traveled on a Eurail Pass around the perimeter of the country. Stayed in the small family owned hotels. My hubby hates big cities so we walked around much smaller ones. This was in early November, definitely off-season. We had a great time. I knew enough German phrases to get us by. I had also read up on how NOT to look like a tourist. Wonderful memories. One of my favorites was when we got on the train and we’re all settled in. The conductor looked at our passes and told us we were eligible for the first class car. We said we would stay where we were. (Too lazy to move; the seats were comfortable.) The smiles we got from the other passengers was worth it. We weren’t “ugly” Americans.
Number caps will solve the problem. Part of the problem may be tourist cruise lines which should be banned. If you want to see Venice, you have to come on your own, by land.
My own experience with these standard tourist stops (or Tourist traps as my mother would call them) is usually diappointment. Usually, they're nice, but not worth the time and expense. Or worth waiting in line. Or being part of a massive crowd. The only exceptions would be Paris (Effiel tower excepted).
If we went back to London, it would only be to see the national gallery and national portrait gallery again. And maybe walk along the Thames.
Just be sure you get there before the aquifer dries up.
Birds of a feather.
Go to Venice together.
If you were feeding the crowds of pigeons for years, it's a little hypocritical to complain about human crowds now. It's also a somewhat unsettling juxtaposition: human tourists worse than pigeons?
New areas open up to tourism all the time. Is that a solution? Or another problem? Did Spain or Greece or Yugoslavia or Turkey take some of the pressure off France and Italy as tourist destinations or just add those new countries to the list of the overtouristed and no longer unspoiled countries? World population is eventually going to peak and decline. Is that a solution? Or another problem?
Maybe they should look at how the pros at Disney handle it. You ration by price. If you are willing to spend enough money, you can whiz around their parks, jumping to the head of the line. It’s extra money for Disney, and doesn’t slow down everyone else that much. Also, reservations and paying for them. Essentially Congestion Pricing. All very undemocratic. But then, if, say, this were applied to Venice, it would mean something to everyone else, that you were rich enough to actually see the top attractions in the city.
Part of the problem is that so much of the world’s population is now middle class and can thus afford to travel. There is nothing exclusive about traveling any more. Friend has two daughters who teach skiing at the Yellowstone Club, an ultra exclusive ski area/club in MT. They have employee appreciation days, where they can invite family members. And when you are there, you might see, or even meet, a celebrity, or just plain billionaire. And if you buy their merchandise, it actually means something to those in the know - like my Aspen hat of 50 years ago. You just have to charge enough to make it exclusive (and keep upping your prices as quickly as you can).
"Congestion charges" for cars are coming to New York City and perhaps already in place in London. I suppose some tourist destinations will tack taxes on to hotels or find some other way to discourage tourism. Will that affect prestigious organizations that want to have conventions and conferences in great world cities and help to make such cities backwaters in the age of Zoom meetings and the internet? What does Venice do about the Biennale (big art show)? Sure, let the people who have the money to buy the art in and keep the tourists and gawkers out, but a lot of support personnel have to come into the city to make the thing work.
Yes, premium pricing for enhanced tourism experience. Time is precious when you are on vacation. For example, instead of waiting on massive lines to enter the Vatican, purchase a guided tour. Skip the line, and as an added bonus, an art history major docent will provide fascinating insight into what you're looking at.
Also, crowded tourist cities are magnificent at dawn. As a runner, I've dawn-jogged London, Edinburgh, Tel Aviv, Barcelona, Mexico City and numerous U.S. cities. As an older walk-only guy, I embrace the same dawn concept, just slower and seeing less. Like our bloggstress, just not the same lake every day.
"There's a reason German cities are so modern."
I was in Kiel once, and walking around I was puzzled by the fact that everything was so new. Until the lightbulb went on; "Oh, yeah". Kiel was a major naval and submarine construction base.
We go to New Zealand a lot. There aren't any tourists at the sheep stations we stay at.
I know a dental veterinarian who treat's hen's teeth problems, Honest!
In my four decades of domestic and international travel, I've never gone as a tourist. Oh, I've been to plenty of tourist spots, but I didn't go there for that. Most of my interactions have been with business associates and customers work wise and model airplane people personally. You learn a lot more about places from people you know.
Yes Indeed. Iceland was packed with Asians of all nationalities when I visited four years ago. I took a cruise to Antarctica in late 2023; at least 25 of the 140 passengers were obviously mainland Chinese. You could tell by their dowdy clothes and inability of most to speak any English.
So, do you have two-tier prices, one for the turistas and a much lower one for the locals? If not, the locals won't be able to afford their hotels and restaurants.
Diversity, Equity, Immigration reform
My first (only) trip to Venice was in 2023. Yes, St. Mark’s Square was packed with people. So what? Is there some law I inadvertently violated that requires tourists to restrict themselves to the most crowded attractions? There’s plenty to see in Venice that’s not nearly so packed, and the restaurants and trattorias were fabulous.
Said Marina Novelli, the director of the Sustainable Travel and Tourism Advanced Research Center at the University of Nottingham
WTF qualifies some moron at the University of Nottingham to decide the "correct" number of people to go to Venice?
A couple of years ago I watched the fireworks on New Years Eve from the top of the Spanish Steps. Yes it was crowded, but it was a memory I will always have as fireworks were launched all across the city.
Here a link to a sketch comparing the bones of the human arm vs the bones of a turkey arm. Interesting parallels. Elbow is noted in both: https://svpow.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/human-and-bird-arms.jpeg
Jaq said:
"A couple of years ago I watched the fireworks on New Years Eve from the top of the Spanish Steps. Yes it was crowded, but it was a memory I will always have as fireworks were launched all across the city."
Small world! We did that NYE 2008/2009. Top of the Spanish Steps is a wonderful spot for that. Stayed at (IIRC) the Intercontinental right near there.
I love Venice. If I had unlimited money, I'd buy a home there, but I'd only live there in the off-season and during Carnivale.
Paris offers much of interest, esp if you have the Big $$$. Fundamentally, it'a a very big city and like most of the others, a shit hole, occupied by many assholes. Increasing diversity has made it much more so.
I've always enjoyed Vienna but its been more than 10 years now so, who knows.
Switzerland is interesting in that cultural influence is a great divide. Germanic Zurich, while not overly friendly, is extremely functional while Geneva is more of a French city-state, overwhelmed by international rent-seekers. In one of these cities every public toilet is spotless; in the other, not so much. Bet you can guess.
There's usually a signicant difference in comfort between 1st and 2nd Class on European trains. Apart from better and more spacious seating, there's occupancy. Often, the 2 Class cars are SRO while carriages in 1st are practically empty.
Many years ago, passed on a great looking "Pebble Beach" t-shirt because of the $70 price tag at the golf course gift shop. Disappointment vanished when I spotted same shirt at Chevron station just outside the Spanish Bay gate for less than $20.
If you go in the off season and rise at dawn you will have virtually any European attraction to yourself. Among other adventures I recall wandering all over Mont Saint Michel one morning with my wife and being literally the only people there.
Was in Venice, once - 1985. It WAS a dump. Never crossed my mind to give it a second chance.
Dubrovnik is now Cruise Ship Hell. I make a good chunk of change selling cruises but what's happening in places like Dubrovnik is just wrong.
Funny you should mention China. Interlaken and the villages uphill of there are being crushed by these people. They were first noticeable to me about 2015. The numbers were large and interest in western behavioral norms was alien. They have since become HORDES! On the brighter side their behavior is much improved.
Many locals of long acquaintance despair of the growing number of tourists, in general. They say, we were happy to share our mountains for their money. We kept building hotels to get more of their money and they kept coming in greater numbers. One day we woke up and realized we had sold our mountains to strangers. The feeling now is that the locals have sold their way of life, entirely.
An innkeeper I've been staying with almost 30 years told me this October, that high season occupancy is now over 97 percent. The rooms I once rented for less than $60 are now well over $300 and always full. There is no end in sight. In Murren, a small village on the edge of a cliff, there is now a YUGE hotel going up that would fit right in on the Vegas Strip. AAaaarrgh!!!!!!!!
It will cost you a bunch of money to drive in inner-Tokyo. Not a problem if you have a fabulous mass transit system that's clean and safe. Works only in places where all the locals play by the same rules.
My wife and I enjoyed our time in Switzerland in '78, and Interlaken is a favorite memory. We stayed a few nights in Berne, Geneva, and Zurich too, and found a lot to like, but Interlaken at a small hotel was special.
Speaking of cultural boundaries, when we left Switzerland for Milan, the difference between Swiss tidiness and Italian shiftlessness was apparent out the window as soon as we crossed the border.
We hit Milan during a trade fair, so overnighted to Venice, which was worth a few days but I'm not tempted to go back.
Our trip was April-May, so we had most places pretty much to ourselves.
The goal is to have the same income but from fewer travellers - basically just push the price up so the elites can enjoy it without the plebs.
It all just reminds me of Chevy Chase in Vacation, lining the family up for three seconds in view of the Grand Canyon, saying "yep!" and rushing back to the car.
Seeing famous things so that you can say "I saw famous things!"
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