According to The Washington Post: "According to flight surveillance data, the downed Army Black Hawk helicopter was heading south, roughly along the District side of the river, before the collision with the American Airlines regional jet. [Jeff Guzzetti, a former crash investigator with the Federal Aviation Administration and the National Transportation Safety Board] said it appeared the helicopter had been traveling in that corridor, but that he could not be certain...."
It was an Army helicopter (WaPo): "The Army helicopter involved in the collision was a UH-60 Black Hawk on a training flight, military officials said late Wednesday.... Three service members were on board, according to two defense officials, who spoke on the condition of anonymity due to the sensitivity of the incident. Flight tracker information identified the helicopter as 'PAT25,' the typical call sign for helicopters used for 'priority air transport” missions...."
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The American regional jet was under tower control with flight following that has ATC providing aircraft separation. The Army helicopter was flying visually which means it is responsible for keeping away from traffic. However, since it was in controlled airspace of the airport, they should have been in contact with DCA Tower. ATC communications recording before the impact has the Tower asking if the helicopter had visual on the regional jet and requested the helicopter pass behind the regional jet. Because the military uses different radios and frequencies than civilian aircraft, it is unclear if they responded to the Tower calls by voice. They obviously did not fly behind the regional jet.
Prayers for those who’ve perished and for their families.
Too early to suspect a premeditated act?
DC's airspace is among the most controlled and congested in the nation. Flying through it is like aeronautical crochet, and since 99% of aviation accidents are pilot error I'll wait for more info.
Don’t these passenger jets and helos have aircraft proximity warnings/alarms?
Where was Tonya Harding when this happened?
I can tell you that it was extremely windy as my American Airlines flight was landing at DCA last night. Certainly one of the more unnerving landing I've experienced. Maybe the pilots were busy battling the winds and were distracted from watching for other aircraft?
Both craft may have drifted out of position due to wind. The helicopter was on a training flight. I'd speculate that the heli pilot was confused and in the wrong place, and the instructor may have granted too much leeway to make mistakes and figure out solutions. They were training in dark and windy conditions in the MIDDLE of congested urban airspace.
This is one of those times I wish Trump would resist the urge to comment on everything. He's now POTUS and doesn't need publicly speculate like this.
Yes, it's called TCAS (Terrain/Traffic Collision Avoidance System). I believe it is transponder based, and regardless don't think it is effective on approach at such low altitude/airspeed.
Ditto.
The helicopter was instructed to pass behind the jet but they did not see the jet. Why? Constant bearing means collision. The jet's lights were not moving relative to the background lights owing to the collision course. They were not in the landing light beam but to the side, so what's obvious to the video was not there for the helicopter.
The jet crew was not watching for the helicopter, having a difficult approach path to fly.
This is how frank and candid assessments, that need to be given to a president are discouraged. 🫤
Are they "former" figure skaters because they are now dead?
That's a pretty harsh headline
John Henry
In December, I heard a radio report from a Congressional hearing that Secretary Pete didn’t replace the FAA’s safety equipment that is 60 years old.
Insightful Rh as always.
Why me?
ATC broadcasts on civilian and military frequencies simultaneously. The Blackhawk was in the control zone (as best I can tell) and should have been on tower frequency.
I don't think the helicopter had a normal TCAS system. They would be quite annoying for military aircraft that routinely try to intercept things. Military aircraft have Radar Warning Receivers and other methods for horizontal situational awareness. Also, TCAS is inhibited below 1000 feet, because it is annoying for almost all aircraft coming into a congested airport. That's not a flippant thing. There simply is too many things for the TCAS to determine if that plane taking off on runway 1 might be a threat, the plane landing on runway 33 is a threat, the helicopter flying south is a threat, the plane that just exiting runway 1 is a threat, the plane waiting next in line on runway 1 is a threat; all of which were present at the time of collision and could fit within a circle with a 1mile radius.
She may have been onboard. The plane was full of competitive ice skaters for the US and other countries.
What I've seen in the news so far has indicated that the helicopter would not have had TCAS, and that it may have been flying with no transponder, so the jet would not have picked it up. It has also been reported that the helicopter was at 350' altitude, well above what is supposedly the ceiling for helicopter traffic of 200'.
I would venture there are more alive figure skaters than dead. Please tell me Katarina Witt was not on the plane.
What are the chances they used FAA money for some DE&I bs.
Too busy chest-feeding, I reckon.
Very good video to give situational awareness of what was happening at the time of the crash (via VASAviation): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CiOybe-NJHk
For the suggestion that there may have been some sort of malice; I think that can be ruled out. The video starts early enough that you see the military helicopter crossing north of the airport. You can see flight Jazz 789 taking off runway 1 and the military flight PAT25 turn east to avoid it before turning south along the river. In the about 2:30 seconds from the video start to the crash, Jazz 789 takes off runway 1, Bluestreak (JIA - American regional) 5307 will land runway 1, and American 1630 will takeoff on runway 1. Just to give you an idea of the activity.
Speculating a lot here... About 2 minutes into the video, you'll see JIA "Bluestreak" 5342 making its maneuver to land runway 33 as requested by tower. Tower likely had it use runway 33 to give an opportunity and separation for American 1630 to takeoff on runway 1. Tower then gives American 1630 clearance for takeoff runway 1. Tower is in communication with PAT25 on another channel and it claims to have visual. At 2:20 seconds, Tower asks PAT25 to fly behind "the CRJ". This is appropriate communications but vague. I think it is possible that PAT25, which would have the pilot in command on the right side of the helicopter, was watching the American 1630 takeoff and staying visually separated and thought it was ordered flying behind it. Unfortunately, JIA 5342 is coming from PAT25's left side for landing.
Huh. So TCAS is useless in the congested areas, where it is most needed, particularly with active transponderless aircraft? Driverless cars seem to have more tech than aircraft at this point, then. AI will certainly improve this state of affairs. Thanks for the responses.
Funny you should ask.. This is from 20 hours ago
https://x.com/itstonyaharding/status/1884645537955160238
Hi everyone! I've finally figured out how to make an account on here!!
I'm very excited to reconnect with you all
(if anyone remembers me) 😄
With love,
Tonya
The chopper was flying VFR after dark in heavily-trafficked congested airspace? Seems like a pretty stupid time/place to conduct “routine training”.
Just heard Sen. Grassley say we need more air traffic controllers. Why didn’t Sec. Pete make that a priority over racist highways?
Fifty plus years ago a Marine Corps F-4 Phantom collided with a DC-9 over the San Gabriel Mountains. The Marine aviators ejected safely, but there are no ejection seats or parachutes in a passenger jet. The Air Force and Navy agreed to try to keep their jets out of airspace around civilian airports and to notify ATC when they do enter controlled airspace. Why an army helo would fly so close to an airport as busy as DCA (Reagan National Airport) is unclear.
Somebody screwed up. The challenge for the media is to now find some way of holding Trump responsible. Conversely, Trump will look to pin the blame on who knows what. I don't think you can blame it on undocumented aliens, but there might be a DEI hire in the mix......This is an airport used by all Washington insiders, Repubs, Dems, and lobbyists. I don't know how fair the investigation will be, but you can bet that it will be thorough and that they will make an honest effort to make sure it never happens again. No so much for train accidents in Ohio.
Any AA/DEI types involved in the piloting, or will that info be kept classified?
Every president has to be judged on balance, there are a lot of eye rollers that come out of his mouth, and yet, no matter what the people who do the doomsday clock say, his election has moved the clock back, not forward.
Both aircraft had transponders and ADS-B, as required since 2020. According to ADS-B data, the helicopter was flying a track of about 210 degrees at 113 knots and 350 feet. The airliner was on approach to runway 33 doing 121 knots at about 375 feet on a track of about 330 degrees. ADS-B probably shows track (path across the ground) verses heading data (which way the aircraft is pointing), which can be quite different in the reported windy conditions. The impact was roughly perpendicular
https://x.com/ADSBex/status/1884793847068164379?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1884793847068164379%7Ctwgr%5Eb267adcf042ef8fb03e2cb9decf65cacf7142f52%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.twz.com%2Fair%2Fh-60-black-hawk-collides-with-crj700-airliner-over-potomac-river
You see what you expect to see. Good chance that the helo crew was observing another aircraft, and weren’t expecting one right in front of them
"Every president has to be judged on balance, there are a lot of eye rollers that come out of his mouth"
It never ceases to amaze me that when Trump opines on breaking subjects like this, the people that screech like banshees are the same leftist wraiths that assign divine/omnipotent qualities to elected officials. For eff's sake, they're human and they mispeak and have unpopular opinions on things.
Is he the president? yeah. Do I wish he wouldn't tweet about stuff like this without all the facts? yeah. Is he perfect? no. Is it disqualifying in the way the wraiths would like? no. Is it possible to regard and disregard statements from powerful people using your best judgement without going nuclear every time it happens? yes, but not for the harpies acting as hall monitors.
DEI in ATC has been an issue for quite a while now. God help us if the controller turns out to be one of the new protected-to-the-point-of-ridiculous-privilege class.
“Training flight” has almost as many meanings as “Aloha”, “Bitte” or “Fuck”. Burning gas (Use it or lose it). Logging hours to maintain proficiency or qualify for flight pay. Maybe, certification that equipment modification or repair is functional. Sometimes there’s an element of “sight-seeing/joy-riding”. I’ll never forget the time my brother, the Ace Naval Aviator thought it would be interesting to see the bright lights of LA from above. Near crapped his flight suit when moving objects and radio chatter suggested he was the target in a shooting gallery.
Seen some pretty dumb things in my 40-year flying career (T-37s, A-10s, B-727s, MD-10s and 11s, B-777s) but this boggles the mind. To enter Class B airspace, you need a radio, a transponder, and, at the very least, radio contact with the Tower. Night VFR around Reagan?? WTF were they thinking? A billion years ago, when I was V Corps’ USAF advisor to the commanding General, I learned that Army helo pilots didn’t graduate from flight training with an instrument rating. Don’t know if that is the case today, but in any case, this sounds nuts. FWIW, I can’t remember if TCAS is affected by low altitude/airspeed but I do remember it’s usually smarter than you, ie., if you get the warning, believe it and act accordingly.
Why would you have a training flight at night right next to a congested airport? And of course, you'd think your first priority flying a helicopter in a sky full of planes taking off and landing would be: Dont hit a plane.
But it could be the Army does this all the time, and this was the 1 time out of 10000 they had a collision. But doesn't look good. If the pilot was a AA baby, a wimmen or POC, look for the DNC-MSM to hide that or skip over it real fast.
Sad the ice skaters might be dead. Hope they were rescued.
Sort of hard to plan that, no? Or even do it deliberately. And IRC, the helicopter has a co-pilot and was on a training mission. But.... possible.
WTF. Why was a helicopter on a training mission flying VFR through the controlled airspace around the airport at night, in the landing pattern and not in direct contact with the controllers? That is in violation of airmanship 101. We’re not being told the truth, again.
Joint base Anacostia-Bolling is across the Potomac from the approach end of Runway 33 at Reagan National Airport.
Good video on exactly what happened, though not why it happened.
Looking at the ADS-B data, the impact was roughly perpendicular. The helicopter crew was likely wearing night vision goggles which might provide a restricted field of view.
When the helicopter crew was told about the airliner, it likely was at about 10 or 11 o’clock moving towards 9 o’clock at the same altitude. From the airliner’s perspective, the helicopter was likely at the 1 or 2 o’clock moving towards 3 o’clock. Reportedly, the winds were high, so the airline crew was concentrating on the runway ahead of them instead of looking to their right for traffic.
Against the background of all the lights in the area and with the relative angles they were from one another, “see and avoid” was obviously insufficient.
Dave,
We all know that his is Trump's fault. Do not confuse the issue by bringing up ButtBoy.
This will not turn out to be the fault of the AA pilots. While they, as any pilot, have the obligation to avoid other traffic, the AA plane was flying a predetermined pattern, altitude, and airspeed. Their primary attention at that point of the flight was establishing stable conditions for landing.
The doggie helo pilots ran into the jet. Not the other way around. It will be interesting to discover if the doggies were commissioned officers or warrants.
- Krumhorn
I would see have thought the standard flight paths into National would be off limits to other aircraft.
The odds against two planes carrying a large contingent of figure skaters being involved in disastrous plane crashes? This is surely a case of history not repeating itself but rhyming.
What a ghastly way to start the day, to hear about this. Everyone I work with flies into DCA at some point. I've flown in and out a half-dozen times. It's been quite a long time since a flight disaster in the USA.
DEI? Maybe. RIP.
How could a military helicopter not see an approaching commercial jet. Even from the side. Military Helicopter flew a straight line path to the commercial jet. Those commercial jets land one after the other. WTF?
I used to as well. It was thrilling to fly in, looking at all the monuments from the air. But that airport probably shouldn't be there anymore.
Sabena Flight 548 1961. It happens with hockey players -- Sverdlovsk 1950, Yaroslavl 2011 -- crashes that wiped out teams. The NHL also brings up the small plane crashes of Hobey Baker 1918 and Bill Barilko 1951.
The helicopter and crew were part of the 12 Aviation Battalion. That unit provides VIP service in the national capital area. I'd be very surprised if that crew wasn't instrument qualified. Odds are they were wearing night vision goggles which can restrict their field of view. According to ADS-B data, they were flying at approximately the same speed and altitude as the airliner on a perpendicular track. The airliner crew was focused on their approach into runway 33, so they probably were not looking towards their 1-3 o'clock. Against the background lights, they would have had trouble seeing the airliner even if they were looking. The helicopter crew would've had to be looking at their 11 to 9 o'clock to see the airliner. With all of its landing lights on, it should've been easier to spot the airliner, but when you're on a collision course, there is little apparent movement to the crew of either aircraft. The helicopter should have been directed by ATC to change heading and altitude. "See and avoid" just isn't sufficient for that kind of airspace, especially at night.
The large building in the Northern part of Joint Base Bolling is the Defense Intelligence Agency. Not much intelligence in evidence in having helicopters flying "training missions" so close to a major airport.
Apparently there was talk of shutting it down, and members of Congress squawked. I've also flown into DCA dozens of times. It's super convenient to DC, but it's long been known to be challenging. Apparently the military helicopters (according to the video I linked) have permission to cross the Potomac, right through the final approach path. Crazy.
To A10 Pilot: Yes, Army aviators are now required to have instrument ratings. I know because I have a friend who failed that portion, and washed out. Helicopter flights in that area are supposed to restricted to 100 AGL, and are to hug the East shore of the river. The radar track I saw appears that they were flying right down the center of the river. Also, there was a concurrent arrival on another runway. The crew of the helicopter may have mistaken that aircraft for the plane they collided with. Swiss chees holes lined up.
my inkling - I could be totally wrong - the pilot of the military helicopter did this on purpose.
The FAA has been documenting massive numbers of near misses over the last decade or so. I think what's amazing is that it hasn't happened more often. Give credit to the men and women of our aviation industry for being the best in the world. This unfortunate tragedy will likely lead to greater safety measures.
Maybe it's better not to mess around with certain federal functions. It's not a game.
It's one thing when you fire everybody at ExTwitter. It's another when you start firing safety officials.
Our government dithers. Our government (leftist) more concerned with allowing illegals pouring in and BS DEI... and other useless vanity projects.
The collective corrupt left assure us this is all Musk's fault.
I suspect the Blackhawk was blind flying... they were wearing helmets that did not allowed seeing outside and the night vision/radar/whatever failed to 'see' the jet.
Brilliant leftist hairball. Why would we want to fire officials who are proven inept?
btw - the commercial jet was on track to land. The military helicopter ran right into it.
The leftist hive cabal are all blaming Musk. LOL.
Decades of a degrading FAA - and a huge need for top quality aircraft controllers... and a huge need to update the systems...
and all of a sudden it's Musk's fault.
F the left.
Now that the Metro goes out to Dulles, maybe DCA should go the way of Chicago Lakefront.
This is truly sad. The Skating Club of Boston just lost six of their best skaters, who had been in Wichita for a skills camp leading up to Nationals next month. Very reminiscent of the 1961 crash in Europe that took the entire US team.
Looking at the ADS-B data, the impact was roughly perpendicular.
It was, but up until maybe 20 seconds before the collision, they appear to have been flying almost directly towards each other. Then the plane veered northwest to line up with runway 33, and the helicopter turned southwest, directly into the path of the plane's approach. Ugh.
Air-traffic controller error. Described as air traffic control tower incomplete direction and miscommunication with helicopter pilot, who mistook another plane landing at Reagan-National and failed to acknowledge incoming plane it would hit. Does US Army carry liability insurance for pilot-error crashes into civilian craft?
January 20: FAA director fired
January 21: Air Traffic Controller hiring frozen
January 22: Aviation Safety Advisory Committee disbanded
January 28: Buyout/retirement demand sent to existing employees
January 29: First American mid-air collision in 16 years
Making America Great Again!
Breezy, with TCAS, there are Traffic Advisories (TAs) and Resolution Advisories (RAs).
A TA is an aural warning that simply says "traffic, traffic". The flight crew may have been given such an alert (need cockpit voice recorder to verify), but that's not all that useful coming into an airport minutes from landing. At that low altitude and situation; the crew hearing "traffic, traffic" would likely focus on the runway ahead of them to look for any runway incursions, especially at DCA with other aircraft departing on cross runway 1.
Resolution Advisories present visually and aurally. The aural announcement works in concert with the other aircrafts TCAS system. One crew will hear "pull-up, pull-up", and the other will hear "descend, descend". So, they go in different directions. They'll also get symbology on their HUD and/or primary flight display directing them into the direction to travel. The problem with below 1000ft AGL (above ground level) is you can't really descend further. Some RA systems will give an aural indication down to 500ft suggesting a speed change, but even that's dangerous for an aircraft at landing speeds.
I wanted to make this clarification for you to understand that it is less about the congestion issue below 1000ft and the distance to impacting the ground, which will never get out of your way. An aircraft overflying an airport at 1500ft would be in the most congested location it can be and would get both Traffic Advisories and Resolution Advisories.
Another thing to keep in mind is adequate separation for aircraft (not intentionally flying formation) is 1000ft. That plays a part in the rules logic, because you also want to stay 1000ft from the non-participating ground that again refuses to get out of the way.
If DEI is to blame for the crash (common sense, says Trump) then should we feel any confidence to fly right now? Or did they fix the DEI thing between last night and this morning?
Marshall U lost most of their football team in a crash in 1970.
Re. Larry J - Maybe way too much VIP service expected by govt. officials in DC. Airport (DCA) shuttle service seems a perk too far.
That said, when at HQ US Forces, Japan (Yokota AB), I recall with great appreciation, access to helicopters just outside our bldg. that could put me at the Army Administrative Facility (Hardy Barracks in the heart of Tokyo in about 15 minutes v. an hour or two by car. Pretty handy as that landing pad was next to Pacific Stars and Stripes offices and a two-minute walk from the Japan Defense Agency (in Roppongi, of all places) and not much farther from the US Embassy and my satellite office in the "old" Sanno Hotel in Akasaka.
Kakistos, thanks for stating your belief that Trump was being prescient in starting to reform the FAA before the disaster struck. But it’s still too early to conclusively assign blame to the FAA (or anyone else) just yet.
"It never ceases to amaze me that when Trump opines on breaking subjects like this, the people that screech like banshees are the same leftist wraiths that assign divine/omnipotent qualities to elected officials. For eff's sake, they're human and they mispeak and have unpopular opinions on things."
This is why public officials, including (and especially) the President should never voice conjecture, and defer any comments other than "appropriate parties are investigating; more information will be provided as it becomes available," or words to that effect.
None of those items have a bearing on this case. You might recall, BTW, that DCA's namesake fired all the Air Traffic Controllers when their union went cowboy in in 1981. Not only that but they were banned from federal employment for life!
"We all know that his is Trump's fault. Do not confuse the issue by bringing up ButtBoy."
Your childish and homophobic reference to Buttigieg compels me to reply in kind: Buttigieg may be a buttboy, but Trump is ever and always an incredible asshole.
This event reminded me of this. I was born in Evansville and lived there until we moved when I was eight years old. This happened 14 years after we left Indiana, but I still remember the news of it, and of my parents' shock. My father was an Evansville native and a University of Evansville graduate, and he personally knew the coach who died in the crash, (and also, I believe, family members of some of the team players who perished).
Kaka's engaged in a perfect example of "post hoc ergo propter hoc" reasoning.
Previous administration's "deferring any comments to appropriate parties" is what got Trump elected. Biden's entire administration was basically one giant deferral to anybody that could complete a thought, and even those people were incompetent flunkies. I'd rather have an administration that speaks its mind most of the time and can complete a sentence even if it sometimes means he says something most logical people can disregard.
Even private pilots have to maintain a specified currency level legally fly at night. I’m sure the Army has it’s own currency requirements.
“For 14 CFR part 61, section 61.57(b)(1) night operations that meet recent flight experience requirements, the term “night” refers to the time period beginning 1 hour after sunset and ending 1 hour before sunrise. The same regulation requires that during those hours, no person may act as pilot-in-command (PIC) of an aircraft carrying passengers unless within the preceding 90 days and during those specified hours, that person has made 3 takeoffs and landings to a full stop. 14 CFR part 61, sections 61.57(b)(1)(i) and (ii) require the pilot to have made the required takeoffs and landings acting as the sole manipulator of the controls, and to have performed the takeoffs and landings in an aircraft of the same category, class, and type (if a type rating is required). Other conditions apply if using a full flight simulator to meet the requirement as described in 14 CFR part 61 (section 61.57(b)(2)) or if seeking to use another alternative provided in the regulation.”
Shame you didn't provide that analysis when Biden decided to force DEI across all federal functions. Aviation Safety is not a game. Neither is our military. Good thing Trump is resetting the federal functions to what they were before Biden messed them up.
This is why public officials, including (and especially) the President should never voice conjecture...
You mean like when the cops acted stupidly?
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