Here's the post, "Another look at that Berkeley dinner party violence." Excerpt: "'Violence' can also mean 'Vehemence or intensity of emotion, behaviour, or language.'"
April 27, 2024
"'I was a star; I had leading roles,' she said, solemnly shaking her head."
"She had parked in the town square for a takeout lunch — chicken salad, quiche and sweetened iced coffee, finished off with a drag of a Parliament. She lowered her voice. 'People think it’s just aging, but it’s not. It’s violence.' Prompted to explain 'violence,' Ms. Duvall responded with a question: 'How would you feel if people were really nice, and then, suddenly, on a dime' — she snapped her fingers — 'they turn on you? You would never believe it unless it happens to you. That’s why you get hurt, because you can’t really believe it’s true.'"
I'm blogging this because of the striking, strange use of the word "violence." Just 2 weeks ago, on this blog, I got involved in the meaning of that word.
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47 comments:
What does the OED say?
Violence involves physical acts. Any other usage is just more corruption of the language.
Her leading roles were ditzes. Hollywood decided audiences wanted strong women. But, yeah, Hollywood is like high school, and I'm sure it hurts when all those shallow types who wanted to be your friend when you were getting the leading roles drop you like a pariah when the casting directors go another way.
Oh, Shelley Duvall has been gone? Did anyone miss her? I certainly didn't. I never thought about her much, but to the extent I ever did, I never got her. Never understood why she was a star. She never showed me anything notable.
I am sorry she's not well and I wish her well.
She's mentally ill. She's talked about it before. Parsing her use of florid language too closely is not likely to illuminate hidden meaning.
"How would you feel if people were really nice, and then, suddenly, on a dime' — she snapped her fingers — 'they turn on you?"
Hollywood is your sophomore year of high school. The whole town. The whole industry. We knew this already.
please tell me again?
WHO wants to watch old dried up hags? Seems kinda disgusting, like some sort of kink?
I didn't know she was back in Texas - that's Blanco. I always thought she's one of those actors that really only has one character, themselves - that the character she's playing and the film around it, immerses itself in her rather than vice-versa.
It's a repeat of the same old sad story, what Hollywood does to people, especially creative people that start out on the edge or just over it. I've always wondered if she is bipolar.
Hope she's happy. It's good that thing she has a solid spouse, someone looking out for her. But smoking and diabetes, well, it's usually a thing one associates with the short term.
Don't forget Olive Oyl in Popeye.
"What does the OED say? Violence involves physical acts. Any other usage is just more corruption of the language."
I quoted the OED. As you can see, it extends "violence" beyond physical acts.
The last thing I ever remember seeing her in was "Roxanne" with Steve Martin from the late 80s; but the truth is I wasn't ever wondering what happened to her.
I're read somewhere that Stanley Kubrick was brutal towards her while they were making "The Shining".
I don't know if that's what she's talking about. She's an actress and so one could expect a certain dramatic license when it comes to language or maybe just a struggle to find the right words to express her thoughts and feelings. She felt bad emotionally, it was like being struck physically, it hurt. It was violence.
The new Kubrick biography "Kubrick: An Odyssey" recounts how the repulsive director bullied and ordered his on-set team to do the same.
"The only way we're going to get Shelley to cry and be miserable today is if we're shitty to her," Kubrick is quoted as saying.
"The ganging up," the authors say, "was indeed atrocious, yet the result was a fearful, but finally brave, character...."
Well, ok, then....
She was dating Ringo Starr at the time who presumably was also used to being bossed around.
Helpful hint to actresses. Never play Olive Oyl.
She'll always be Olive Oyl to me.
As with many words, "violence" can be used metaphorically, as in "violent emotion."
But you have to be careful with metaphor. If you use it, in pursuit of emphasis, in circumstances where your metaphor might be taken literally, it does the opposite. It sounds like you're saying "I got nothing, so I'm bigging it up."
Still she's a kook, and she's been locked up in the Land of Toys for too long, so I'll give her a pass.
Old people get laid off, old rockers do small clubs, old actors find a tv role. Life, get used to it.
Hollywood gave Duvall the Kristi Noem treatment.
The OED is wrong. Ipse dixit.
I thought it was Stanley Kubrick who famously inflicted extreme psychological harassment upon Ms Duvall during the filming of The Shining. Heeeeerrrrrrre's Johnny
Never a fan.
"The Shining" is my least favorite Kubrick flick, but not just because of her large role.
I'll look for the new bio that Mr. O. Possum mentions.
I've always read that Kubrick was an asshole on set, but it could also be that she was just soft.
I've only heard that story about 'Shining' and no other film, so I'm not sure we can blame him.
Evidently, the goal is violence is just peachy to get what you want, whatever you want.
Well, she was a long time ago now. Life does move on.
'She was dating Ringo Starr at the time who presumably was also used to being bossed around.'
From Shelley Duvall to Barbara Bach.
The man has range : )
As for being bossed around, it always seemed to me that Ringo is just a good guy living his best life. He didn't need to be the 'boss' of he Beatles.
He and his few hundred million dollars are just happy to be here...
It seems what happened to her career was that Altman's ended.
She might as well have said, "I coulda been a contender."
"Violence involves physical acts. Any other usage is just more corruption of the language."
What you call "corruption of the language" is how languages change over time, via the inventive way people use (and purposely or accidentally) "misuse" their language. This has always occurred and will continue as long as there are creatures on this planet who speak and write languages.
I agree that Olive Oyl was the pinnacle of Duvall's career, she really captured the cartoon persona perfectly. And had the physical look without effort.
I loved Altman's Popeye, and am puzzled why it didn't achieve greater success. Robin Williams was superb as Popeye, and I recall enjoying the songs as well. "He's large . . ." Heh.
Never understood her stardom. But then the 70s were the age of the ugly. You had Gould, Dreyfuss, and Roy Schnieder as leading men. You had women like Striesand and Duvall as leading actresses. Gould was cast in "Long Goodbye" because some Studio exec demanded it.
In addition to the ugos You also had 2nd Raters like Martin Sheen, James Caan, George Segal, and Ryan O'Neill taking parts that should have gone to better actors. Or at least someone with more Charisma. Not to mention miscast character actors like Dustin Hoffman or Duvall taking romantic and action roles.
Things got better in the 80s for some reason. Maybe they studio execs cut back on the cocaine.
'... and Roy Schnieder as leading men.'
It's Scheider, and he may not have been Burt Reynolds, but he wasn't 'ugly' by any means...
But I agree with the Gould miscasting. I am a big fan of Chandler, and there are 47 million people who would be better cast as Marlowe...
I refer Ms. DuVall to Harlan Howard's Country classic, "Pick Me Up on Your Way Down." Of course the song presupposes there were those you left behind on your way up.
“She's mentally ill. She's talked about it before. Parsing her use of florid language too closely is not likely to illuminate hidden meaning.”
That was my thought. Hyperbole is the first refuge of the hysterical. And so common these days, that I just dismiss without delving. Shit, if it’s a middle-aged, middle-class white woman of the Facebook-Left, the dismissal isn’t even conscious, it’s a given.
RE: Gould in "The Long Good Bye". There was a comedian named Milt Kamen who took on a second career as a film critic. One night on, I believe, the Dick Cavett Show, he did a routine in which he came to the conclusion that Elliott Gould was in every movie made one year. It seemed like it.
'...he did a routine in which he came to the conclusion that Elliott Gould was in every movie made one year. It seemed like it.'
He was always just himself saying lines. He never became his character.
Oh, it's Gould again just showing up and talking.
“All right, Mr. DeMille, I'm ready for my close-up.”
Duvall is not conventionally beautiful. World can be cruel place for women who don’t meet “beauty” criteria, particularly in Hollywood and media in general. Have some compassion.
The Real Andrew: That's exactly what I was thinking.
People should read what Kubrick et al. did to her on set.
This is also the woman who rounded up top talent actors to help her put on Faerie Tale Theatre, also known as Shelley Duvall's Faerie Tale Theatre.
Duvall is not conventionally beautiful. World can be cruel place for women who don’t meet “beauty” criteria, particularly in Hollywood and media in general. Have some compassion.
All I've ever seen Duvall in is The Shining, do I am not able to gotten an opinion about her as an actor. So I popped in to comment just on the above observation.
The world can indeed be cruel to the unattractive. And if you're unattractive and also lacking in another important quality, such as intelligence or that je ne sais quoi that some people have that makes others want to be around them - sometimes it's charisma, sometimes deep kindness, sometimes - as in the case of a friend of my husband's whom I always found boring and kind of petty in the way he talked about other people, but who nonetheless was much sought after as a party guest, and it wasn't because he embarrassed himself and entertained everyone else - really je ne sais quoi - the world can be especially hard.
I think this is one reason it used to be part of a woman's upbringing if she were middle class or above to with to become "accomplished." For men, I imagine being a "man of parts" is the equivalent, but male beauty has never been as important as male achievement.
I have a friend who is notably unattractive. I mean, quite. But they - I will use this pronoun incorrectly, to give as much camouflage to this person as possible - are so very interesting that five minutes into a conversation, all anyone wants to do is know this person for the rest of their lives.
Jim Gust said...
I agree that Olive Oyl was the pinnacle of Duvall's career, she really captured the cartoon persona perfectly. And had the physical look without effort.
I loved Altman's Popeye, and am puzzled why it didn't achieve greater success. Robin Williams was superb as Popeye, and I recall enjoying the songs as well. "He's large . . ." Heh.
*******
Back in the 80's I peered down from a seaside cliff to see the abandoned "Popeye" set, on Malta, of all places.
I've used the word "Ugly" to describe Duvall but she really isn't. She's ugly for a movie star. And the same is true of Gould and other people. In real life, Young Shelley Duvall would be considered slightly odd looking but above average.
The "looks" and "Charisma" standard for leading women/men in the movies is (or should be) high. There are only a relatively small number of leading roles, and people should be given highly attractive people to look at, unless the part requires otherwise.
As her role in "The Shining", I guess that Jack Nicholson married Duvall is a clue that his character is crazy. Why else would Jack Fuckin' Nicholson marry such an odd looking person? It should be noted that in the novel, the wife is a pretty clever, courageous character. Kubrick turns the wife character into a simmpering idiot. More of Stanley K's hatred of women coming through?
“There is no exquisite beauty… without some strangeness in the proportion.”
― Edgar Allan Poe
I always thought Duvall was exquisite, and the hell with conventionality.
Duvall was brilliant in Popeye as was Williams. Very underrated film by critics and viewers that knew nothing about the Popeye background other than those shitty King Features from about the 50s on, productions that tamed the content of the cantankerous sailor man. His pappy was nasty, Wimpy was more than just a "I'll gladly pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today" (Let's you and him fight. Come over for some duck soup. You bring the duck.), and the Sea Hag / Alice the Goon stories were like the original Grimm Bros. Fairy Tales. The Williams/Duvall movie paid a great homage to the Max Fleischer cartoons (which are classics in the cartoon world) and the subsequent renaming of Fleischer Studios in Paramount Pictures' Famous Studios handling of the character. Did I mention the sets were awesome? My older daughter watched it over and over and I would suspect it was her first exposure to the Popeye characters and tradition.
I have purchased the hard- and soft-cover books by Fantagraphics of all the daily strips of Segar's Thimble Theatre and all of his Sunday strips. Fantastic, detailed and long storylines by E.C.Segar introduced a slew of characters such as George W. Geezil who frequently tried to murder J. Wellington Wimpy, the early introduction of "Bernice, the wiffle hen", Ham Gravy, Castor Oyl, Cole Oyl, Swee'Pea, Eugene the Jeep, Toar the Caveman, Poopdeck Pappy, and King Blozo.
Did I mention I am a huge (early) Popeye fan as depicted in the strips and the cartoons? Can you tell? The comic books that featured Popeye, aww, they did have the comic magic to "blow me down"!
I thought the article at this link was more likely than not, satire, by its title. But I read it and this female scolder is probably serious and should be tied up to the mast of a tiny boat, and pushed out to sea.
https://www.marketplace.org/2010/08/09/four-highly-inappropriate-habits-popeye/
As a face - she was okay. Nothing really special, nothing to grab attention. Except the teeth - she was rather bucktoothed, and that was notable.
As an actress - she was (again) pretty much okay. I think she was probably the perfect choice for Olive Oyl in 'Popeye' - never saw 'The Shining'.
She didn't have the chops to really make it long-term as a leading lady, she just wasn't the type and you can only do so much with makeup, costuming and lighting.
She was a star, briefly. She sparked, she flared, she dimmed... that's Hollywood for you.
That she didn’t know this is odd, given that she got those fairy tale videos made only and entirely because was Shelley Duvall, the brand. Aging out of the brand is the entire history of H’wood…and everywhere else.
When I worked for the NYT, I could get anyone anywhere on the phone either immediately or soon thereafter. The moment I could no longer identify myself as a Times reporter, that ended. Welcome to reality.
But I agree with the Gould miscasting. I am a big fan of Chandler, and there are 47 million people who would be better cast as Marlowe...
But none of them would be better in The Long Goodbye, which is about how Marlowe didn't fit into the modern world.
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