November 20, 2023

"To say what is or is not 'excessive' or 'disproportionate' requires a judgment call based on a cost-benefit analysis."

"But how can anyone weigh the costs and benefits of incommensurable goods like lives and military advantage? In practice, militaries like those of the U.S. and Israel follow procedures that are supposed to anticipate damage in advance and try to keep it within reason. This effort captures Michael Walzer’s observation that it is not enough to not intend to target civilians; one must also intend not to target them—by making efforts to avoid their death.... Determining whether a given act of violence constitutes genocide... turns on the intent of the actor: Was it meant to destroy a group, in whole or in part?... Israel has declared the war objective of eliminating Hamas, which is a military-political organization, not a whole people.... As for Hamas, its 1988 charter called for the liberation of Palestine and for Muslim sovereignty over the entire land... and does not expressly specify the destruction of Israelis in whole or in part. The upshot is that charges of genocide, made in either direction, likely do not satisfy the legal definition of genocide, certainly not as it would be adjudged by any international tribunal today...."

125 comments:

Kate said...

My God. I need a pretzel translator to understand that.

The Crack Emcee said...

"Determining whether a given act of violence constitutes genocide... turns on the intent of the actor: Was it meant to destroy a group, in whole or in part?... Israel has declared the war objective of eliminating Hamas, which is a military-political organization, not a whole people."

People have been cataloguing what Israel's leaders have said.

They're saying it out loud

The UN thinks Israel is targeting Gazans

Jake Tapper is shocked by Bibi's cabinet of horrors.

Oso Negro said...

Let's see....international humanitarian law, or practical reality? I say let those who want the Gazans take them.

Jamie said...

Ok, the legal point is fair enough... but for the rest of us, the tactics each side uses to accomplish its aim are probably more important than whether an international tribunal would go along with either side's committing the legal definition of genocide.

Which side is indiscriminate in killing? Or, worse, does in fact target civilians? Which side does in fact eschew targeting civilians and also "intends not to target" them, in this guy's formulation, by broadcasting warnings, observing periods of ceasefire to allow them to get out of the area, and even escorting them to relative safety?

Do Israelis also hate Palestinians? Probably some to a lot of them do. Does Israel allow, much less encourage, Israelis to strap on suicide vests and blow themselves up in a mosque at evening prayers? We all know the answer to that.

Owen said...

The Hamas Charter of 1988 (as translated at the Jewish Virtual Library; a split-second away by DuckDuckGo) provides, at Article 7, as follows:

"The Islamic Resistance Movement is one of the links in the chain of the struggle against the Zionist invaders. It goes back to 1939, to the emergence of the martyr Izz al-Din al Kissam and his brethren the fighters, members of Muslim Brotherhood. It goes on to reach out and become one with another chain that includes the struggle of the Palestinians and Muslim Brotherhood in the 1948 war and the Jihad operations of the Muslim Brotherhood in 1968 and after.

"Moreover, if the links have been distant from each other and if obstacles, placed by those who are the lackeys of Zionism in the way of the fighters obstructed the continuation of the struggle, the Islamic Resistance Movement aspires to the realization of Allah's promise, no matter how long that should take. The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said:

The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews. When the Jew will hide behind stones and trees, the stones and trees will say, 'O Muslims, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews.' (related by al-Bukhari and Muslim)."


Apparently the 1988 Charter was replaced with a shiny new version in 2017. I haven't checked it; but I note that the Wiki entry on the Hamas Charter dances around its obvious goal, and injunction, to extinguish all Jews.

The Crack Emcee said...

“A Textbook Case Of Genocide”: Top U.N. Official Craig Mokhiber Resigns, Denounces Israeli Assault on Gaza

Richard said...

The use of the term "genocide" is the usual. Take something you don't like and pretend it's something everybody's supposed to hate. Recall some years ago a local Baltimore pol referred to tweaking welfare eligibility as "genocide"> Used as it was meant to be used; fool the chumps and give the activists some sense of moral righteousness.

The attempts to avoid civilian casualties in populated ares usually means, first anyway, reducing or avoiding massed or indirect fires (artillery, heavy munitions from the air, etc.). So if you are facing a sniper in the end window of an apartment block, you don't call the reflags (artillery). You get your own sniper, or try to get an anti-tank rocket into the window. But if you can see him, he can see you and you have a chance of getting your own people hit in the process.

My father was Infantry in the ETO. When I showed him a list of various restrictions we'd have to use in Viet Nam--after Infantry OCS--he snarled, "What traitor wrote those?"

Even though they'd reduced artillery preps in Holland on account of the Dutch civilians hadn't gotten out of the way in time.

Lots and lots of guys hit in SEA on account of restrictions. Stories you'd never think would have been the result of Higher restricting our guys.

And, if you're interested, see the story of Extortion 17. More properly Extortion One Seven. Thirty six guys dead while overhead some body was begging for clearance to shoot and didn't get it.

But this is all dan and finedy as long as you don't have any relations in the Infantry. Even makes you feel virtuous.

hombre said...

"As for Hamas, its 1988 charter called for the liberation of Palestine and for Muslim sovereignty over the entire land... and does not expressly specify the destruction of Israelis in whole or in part."

Feldman ought to read what he writes about:

"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.... The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews)...." Hamas Charter, 1988.

Try as I might, I cannot think of a way that "obliterating Israel" and "killing the Jews" exempts Israelis from destruction.

Heartless Aztec said...

Words and semantics aside. It's killing time. It's one of the things that humanity does well.

TreeJoe said...

These arguments are stupid - blatantly stupid. This is armchair quarterbacking at it's worst.

The October 7th attacks were carefully planned to avoid advance detection and to target civilian populations including a peace festival and communities without nearby military presence. They targeted the least protected populations, in part to take hostages and to maximize death of civilians. This is Hamas, Hamas rules Gaza, and Hamas is empowered by the government leadership of Gaza. Their actions define their intent, not their words and not their charter. Further, there is no call within Gaza for the expulsion of Hamas, the return of hostages, and of unity with Israel for peace.

By contrast, Israel immediately announced intent to evade. They announce, often, their military targets. They have provided humanitarian corridors and encouraged non-combatants to leave.

Gaza isn't in the hands of terrorists. Gaza is run and operated by terrorists who barely pretend not to be the official representatives of Gaza PA and directly sponsored and aided by Iran.

The calls for ceasefire ignore this. The calls for a two-state solution ignore this. The calls for peace ignore this.

The international community & elite embarrasses itself over this moment in history.

Alexander said...

Cool, now how has Noah felt about the following words being applied to Americans over the past few decades outside their legal definitions.

- Nazi
- Fascist
-... ist
-... phobic
-(in)tolerance
- Whiteness
- Diversity
- Inclusion
- Extremist
- Insurrection

Awful lot of "Americans" who seem to not really give a shit or even actively encouraged it until a certain foreign country is now in the crosshairs.

narciso said...

Noah made Islam the official religion in the Iraqi constitution yes he's about as helpful as a fish on a bicycle,

The Crack Emcee said...

Heartless Aztec said...

"It's killing time."

It's BEEN "killing time" and very publicly so. It started with the poisoning of various Russians, escalated to that WaPo journalist being chopped-up in the Saudi Embassy, etc. They just keep ramping it up, as the NewAge also brags of the great business they're doing, worldwide, right along side of it.

It's a beautiful thing.

William said...

Saddam was a Sunni. They were a minority sect in Iraq. Iirc, he established his rule there by killing a few hundred thousand Shiites. He got some bad press for this, but I don't recall any mass protests in the west for his excesses. He never triggered Susan Sarandon.....Algeria, Yemen, Libya, Iraq Syria, Somalia all have ongoing civil wars. Both the rebels and the powers that be in those conflicts pursue their cause with a ferocity and a cruelty that matches and sometimes surpasses anything done in Gaza or Israel. I can't recall any Muslim war crime against other Muslims that has inspired the kind of mass outrage that Salman Rushdie's novel inspired in Muslims worldwide.....Israel is visiting death and destruction on Gaza. That's the proper and proportionate response to the crimes committed against it. The response should serve as a warning to those elsewhere who are contemplating similar crimes....My only caveat is that the response should be adjusted to do whatever possible to secure the release of as many hostages as possible.

narciso said...

You don't have to be a clown to write for the Atlantic, but it certainly helps,

Lucien said...

An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, a life for a life. That's the origin of proportionality. It does not (as Ghandi stupidly said) leave everybody blind, but it does keep folks from wiping out a whole family to avenge a single death.

I suspect that most people believe that if one country starts a war with another, then the offended country can wage war against the aggressor until the aggressor unconditionally surrenders. On the other had, if one country inflicts a pinprick on another (e.g. some Persians lobbing a rocket at an American warship, then all out war is likely unjustified, and a proportional response is required. This rule means that deterrence is limited when the offender can count on a proportionate response. In this light, Trump's response to Iranian aggression by killing a key leader seems inspired: it's hard to view it as disproportionate, but it can be a powerful deterrent to the next bad guy in line.

In the Israel/Hamas case there is some question about whether there is a war of one country against another, because Israel's prior domination of Gaza might make it an "Occupying Power" under international law, while it is not always clear whether Hamas represents the people of the Gaza Strip. On the other hand, a war of rebellion, in which one province of a country tries to break away, or conquer the others, seems like a genuine war, too.

The Crack Emcee said...

TreeJoe said...

"The October 7th attacks were carefully planned to avoid advance detection and to target civilian populations including a peace festival and communities without nearby military presence."

Yeah - they didn't want to get caught - still, 30% of those killed on Oct. 7 were police or soldiers, and some of the dead were killed by Israeli soldiers.

"This is Hamas, Hamas rules Gaza, and Hamas is empowered by the government leadership of Gaza."

That's too simple. Hamas was elected in a campaign Gaza didn't want. They haven't been allowed an election since Hamas took power. Half of Gaza is kids, so that's half the population getting killed who never elected anybody.

"They have provided humanitarian corridors and encouraged non-combatants to leave."

There's no place to go, and then they bomb where they tell people to go.

"Gaza isn't in the hands of terrorists."

They're called Zionists and even Jews don't like them.

"The international community & elite embarrasses itself over this moment in history."

Sucking Israel's dick wouldn't even look good on OnlyFans.

chuck said...

International humanitarian law is only as strong as the armies that enforce it. I'd call it Western colonialism.

baghdadbob said...

Was Dresden "genocide?" Nagasaki?

Not all Germans were Nazis. Not all Japanese followed Tojo.

The only way to truly "win" a war is bombing and shelling until you receive unconditional surrender. Then the vanquished lay down their arms, agree to occupation and rehabilitation, and their leaders are imprisoned or killed.

The Crack Emcee said...

Jewish Currents Magazine: A Textbook Case of Genocide

hombre said...

Crack cites the usual suspects. Never mind Hamas' declared intention to obliterate Israel and kill Jews and the myriad videos, etc., demonstrating widespread support of Gazans for Hamas.

October 7th was where the rubber met the road in terms of discernment regarding the Israel/Palestine issue. The geopolitical, historical dunces committed to the "Israeli oppressors, Palestinians oppressed" caca, as opposed to the facts, must now endorse terrorism, directly or indirectly.

Bottom line: Israel is a target of, and a bulwark against, violent jihad. Her survival is at stake.

hombre said...

Crack cites the usual suspects. Never mind Hamas' declared intention to obliterate Israel and kill Jews and the myriad videos, etc., demonstrating widespread support of Gazans for Hamas.

October 7th was where the rubber met the road in terms of discernment regarding the Israel/Palestine issue. The geopolitical, historical dunces committed to the "Israeli oppressors, Palestinians oppressed" caca, as opposed to the facts, must now endorse terrorism, directly or indirectly.

Bottom line: Israel is a target of, and a bulwark against, violent jihad. Her survival is at stake.

Clark said...

"does not expressly specify the destruction of Israelis in whole or in part" — Noah Feldman being a useful idiot.

hombre said...

Oh my goodness! What happened here?

https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1725891247246553309

Old and slow said...

Genocide? When your enemy is dedicated to your extinction, I'd call it self-defense. The Palestinians are bringing this on themselves, and as sad as it may be, it is just.

NKP said...

If war is a last resort (as it should be), there is no place for lawyers on the battlefront. Total victory and unconditional surrender are the objective.

Our side committed many atrocities in WWII. they can be debated until the end of time Victory demanded they not be debated as the war was raging. Imagine a negotiated settlement of WWII in, say, 1942. I wonder what the terms would have been.

FDR was the best of presidents and the worst of presidents. IMO, he was a GREAT wartime leader. Too bad he (and Churchill) pissed away much that was won to Stalin at the conference table. In the final sorting-out, those two gave away far more than Chamberlain.

We're still paying the price for those diplomatic blunders.

hombre said...

Oh my goodness! What's going on here?

https://www.memri.org/tv/gaza-kindergarten-ceremony-stage-military-attack-hostagetaking

Howard said...

No one cares about this Arab genocide because Jews aren't involved.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_during_the_Syrian_civil_war

Big Mike said...

How does the IDF see to it that October 7th never happens again without killing lots and lots of Palestinians? That’s the question none of these nattering nabobs cares to answer because there’s only one answer: you can’t.

I’m glad that they seem to have stopped using the phrase “innocent civilians,” because it seems clear by now that there are hardly any Palestinians who don’t support the genocidal goals of Hamas. Maybe children under five. When you have mothers who are proud that their sons are in Hamas and killing unarmed Jews, it’s a stretch to call them “innocent.”

lgv said...

Oh look, the two false narratives wrapped in one paragraph:

Israel has declared the war objective of eliminating Hamas, which is a military-political organization, not a whole people

Yes in the sense that it means it is not genocide, but no in the sense that you can separate Hamas and the will of the people. Hamas was chosen by the people. Palestinians still support Hamas by a great majority. Israel isn't for genocide or they would start with the 20% of their own population that are Palestinian Muslims.

As for Hamas, its 1988 charter called for the liberation of Palestine and for Muslim sovereignty over the entire land... and does not expressly specify the destruction of Israelis in whole or in part

What? Muslim sovereignty over ALL the land requires the destruction of Israelis. There is no other way.

So, ask yourself what the objective of the October 7 was. Other than the elimination of Israelis there is no other justification. Did they unshackle to bonds of tyranny from Gaza? They already run Gaza. Did they annex land? No, they went in, murdered and took prisoners and returned. They broke the truce that was in force on October 6.

I do feel sorry for the average Palestinians who become cannon fodder for the Persian Shia in Iran and Hezzbolah in Syria, while Hamas leadership living a nice life in Qatar, but they made a poor choice. The only lasting solution is the elimination of Hamas.

BarrySanders20 said...

Nearly all Gazans would be dead by now if that was Israel's goal. They would then need to turn their attention to the West Bank to succeed with any Palestinian genocide plan. They don't want all Palestinians dead. Just Hamas.

Big Mike said...

BTW, Althouse, can you point us towards any American feminist writers or feminist organizations who have condemned the rapes of Jewish women on October 7th? I haven’t seen any but then I’m not looking for what I don’t expect to find.

n.n said...

Quantity, quality, and attribution are assumed, asserted in the judgment of the Israeli response to Hamas-led abortion, rape, torture, and abduction of Israelis and others. To be fair to Hamas and transnational supporters, there are socially forward-looking precedents to commit genocide in order to abort political separation motivated by progressive violence.

JK Brown said...

The Hamas Covenant of 1988

Article 28 Conspiracy charges against Israel and the whole of the Jewish people: "Israel, Judaism and Jews".[1][34] It claims that "Zionist organizations" aim to destroy society through moral corruption and eliminating Islam, and are responsible for drug trafficking and alcoholism.

"destroy society through moral corruption" is straight out of the religious underpinnings of Nazism. And Israel thriving is a direct repudiation of this basic tenet underlying the gnostic religion. Do not be deceived, they claim to be Islamic, but their beliefs are of the older gnostic dialectic religion that predates.

Roger Sweeny said...

International law is to law as military music is to music?

Jupiter said...

Who is this Feldman guy, and what is he doing in the Atlantic? Next he'll be telling us there's something wrong with calling men women.

Another old lawyer said...

There are way too many attorneys and laws involved in the conduct of war. We're on the slippery slope to lethally cosplaying Star Trek's TOS episode, "A Taste of Armageddon."

Lem the artificially intelligent said...

"it is not enough to not intend to target civilians; one must also intend not to target them—by making efforts to avoid their death...."

What if the civilians refuse to wear masks and get the shot?

Kevin said...

"Germany lost territory after its defeat in World War II, paid reparations, and was occupied by foreign forces. Germany was formally stripped of its sovereignty and did not get it back in full until 1991—and I do not mean East Germany under Soviet domination but West Germany, over which the Allied powers maintained formal legal power until after reunification. Germany was reduced after the war and, some decades later, the expanded Soviet empire was disbanded and Moscow’s footprint in the world much reduced. Hirohito’s empire was liquidated after Japan’s defeat, as Napoleon’s had been before Hirohito’s and many more had been before that. Vanquished powers—and, especially, vanquished powers that start unprovoked wars of aggression—suffer all kinds of reductions and limitations, and some of them go away altogether. Question: Why, exactly, do we believe that the Palestinian statelet, led by Hamas on one side and by Mahmoud Abbas’ homicidal mafia on the other, must endure forever?"

On Morality and Restraint

tim maguire said...

Proportionality is a doctrine that lets the terrorist set the pace of violence, preserve its forces and continue the struggle indefinitely. It ties the hands of legitimate states and prevents them from resolving conflict. It is the creed of people who want never-ending violence.

Dear corrupt left, go F yourselves said...

The bad guys are murderous barbarians.

Watch their own footage. Do it - you anti-"Zionists". Watch.

gspencer said...

"As for Hamas, its 1988 charter called for the liberation of Palestine and for Muslim sovereignty over the entire land... and does not expressly specify the destruction of Israelis in whole or in part."

You're ignoring, probably deliberately, that codicil, you know, the one with the catchy tune, "From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free."

Jew-free.

Rusty said...

How can it be genocide if the Arabs inside of Israel aren't being targeted for elimination? In fact aren't Israeli Arabs also in the IDF?
So, no. It is not genocide.

narciso said...

Islamic state and Raqqua or Mosul or Palmyra, it's not rocket science,

technochitlin said...

Good Lord. When a man, or an Organization, tells you what they're going to do- believe them! Israel is in a fight for its' existence, and this guy is splitting hairs. The masks have certainly come off of a lot of people in this country.

And Crack, don't sugar-coat it. You hate Jews. You put up a torrent of verbiage, but it doesn't obscure that basic fact. Sad!

Oligonicella said...

The Crack Emcee:
Sucking Israel's dick wouldn't even look good on OnlyFans.

You and Hamas wouldn't look good there either.

MadTownGuy said...

"As for Hamas, its 1988 charter called for the liberation of Palestine and for Muslim sovereignty over the entire land... and does not expressly specify the destruction of Israelis in whole or in part."

Word games. There's more than just that charter in play.

Yancey Ward said...

If The Allies had fought WWII with these sorts of rules, the Third Reich would be celebrating its 100th anniversary a decade from now with parades in Paris and Warschau.

The Crack Emcee said...

hombre said...

"Crack cites the usual suspects."

I hear ya. Know your audience, am I right? Here's Pat Buchanan and Ron Paul calling Gaza a "concentration camp" way back when. That's enough red meat for any primitive to chew on.

"Never mind Hamas' declared intention to obliterate Israel and kill Jews and the myriad videos, etc., demonstrating widespread support of Gazans for Hamas."

A) Hamas can't do it and everybody knows it, including you. It's literally impossible. But Israel CAN kill all Palestinians in Gaza and have said they want to. You know that, too. B) Videos can be made to show support even when it's limited. C) Jews and Christians also live in Gaza, so your framing of who these people are is an obvious caricature that doesn't describe real people, or a real place, or the real situation on the ground.

"October 7th was where the rubber met the road in terms of discernment regarding the Israel/Palestine issue."

October 7th was where Hamas demanded the world pay attention and we have.

"Bottom line: Israel is a target of, and a bulwark against, violent jihad. Her survival is at stake."

Bottom line: Israel is a super-mighty, crazy-messianic military nuclear state, with US support in the form of funds and military aid it doesn't even need. That makes it the most powerful player in the entire region. So she is in NO danger, much less a fight for her survival, demonstrated by the fact she also is an occupying force, holding over 2 million people in what 18 human rights organizations say is an "apartheid state" and Republicans have called a "concentration camp" for decades (See above. BTW, South Africa agrees, and they ought to know) AND the biggest attack her enemies committed was using kids in para-gliders wearing flip-flops.

Your cognitive dissonance can only stretch so far, Guy.

Clyde said...

From which pasture did Feldman pluck those nuggets of bovine fecal matter?

He ignores that for the laws of war to apply, BOTH sides must adhere to it. Hamas is a terrorist organization that deserves to be utterly annihilated. Period. Full stop.

When terrorist groups hide among civilians to conduct their attacks, they are the ones responsible for civilian casualties when their enemies retaliate.

traditionalguy said...

Hamas has got a big problem. Bibi has the Israelis ready for the IDF treating Hamas as Amalikites. For those not into scripture, those were the guys that ticked off Jehovah so badly that He ruined his reputation as a merciful and forgiving God.

The Crack Emcee said...

technochitlin said...

"And Crack, don't sugar-coat it. You hate Jews. You put up a torrent of verbiage, but it doesn't obscure that basic fact. Sad!"

Then how do you explain Jews who don't like Zionism? Must they also hate Jews, even though Jews who don't like Zionism have existed since Zionism was an idea - before Israel was even a country - because Zionism goes against the Torah? Does everyone who criticizes Zionism hate the Jews or just me? Don't sugar-coat it:

You hate blacks.

Static Ping said...

"international tribunal"

Like that matters in the least. There is no international institution other than the ineffective and corrupt United Nations, so the only people who get put on trial for international law are whomever the "victors" in any given situation decide to put on trial. The Hague is a joke. International law as legal code is meaningless. It is more or less a treaty arrangement, which can be enforced or not at the whim of the signees however they see fit.

The author is correct that Israel is not engaging in genocide by any reasonable definition. To excuse Hamas requires a level of naivete that would be embarrassing for a six-year-old.

Tina Trent said...

Thanks Crack, for the link to Amy Goodman, who makes a cool $2 million a year, including from taxpayers, to preach radical Marxism and endorse rioting and destruction of other people's homes and businesses.

TreeJoe said...

I said, "This is Hamas, Hamas rules Gaza, and Hamas is empowered by the government leadership of Gaza."

To which Crack said, "That's too simple. Hamas was elected in a campaign Gaza didn't want. They haven't been allowed an election since Hamas took power. Half of Gaza is kids, so that's half the population getting killed who never elected anybody."

Your statement is acting as if democratic elections are the way of the world. They are a very recent invention that barely exists in a part of the world in which people rise up and overthrow their governments every few generations or so, and install new governments by dictate.

The people of Gaza are under terrorist-dictator rule by an organization sponsored by Iran and others. It sucks for them. And it will be God awful bloody, but the only way to rid yourself of that presence is through bloody rebellion. It's not going to happen by election, and frankly Israel can't do it.

The lack of such rebellion is actually more concerning and speaks to why Israel has to do what it is doing.

Tina Trent said...

Big Mike: to my surprise, N.O.W. denounced it and anti-semitism.

Immanuel Rant said...

Oh, well, if the UN criticized Israel....

I mean, we can clearly see how upright and neutral that organization has been. I mean, just look at the line-up of nations handling human rights. All pillars of virtue that in now way could have any potential for rooting for terrorists or killing the odd jew or two. Or two million.

NotWhoIUsedtoBe said...

Israel hasn't even though it could. Hamas has done its best but is limited by its lack of military power.

It's not hard to understand.

Jamie said...

An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, a life for a life. That's the origin of proportionality. It does not (as Ghandi stupidly said) leave everybody blind, but it does keep folks from wiping out a whole family to avenge a single death.

Thank you for this - so many people don't understand it. It's that only your enemy's eye is forfeit if only your eye was taken. Like Christian monogamy, which requires (ahem, probably contra human nature, but it's a requirement anyway) male chastity exactly as firmly as it requires female chastity, "an eye for an eye" is an expression of great liberalism in contrast to the religious doctrines surrounding it (both historically and at present, apparently, in both cases, if you consider "sex positivity" one of the dogmas of Woke).

The Crack Emcee said...

REPORT: Friendly Fire Killed "Some" Israelis At Oct 7 Rave

Robert Cook said...

"In practice, militaries like those of the U.S. and Israel follow procedures that are supposed to anticipate damage in advance and try to keep it within reason."

Hahahaha! Bitter laughter called for, indeed. The U.S., in virtually all its war-making, and Israel, at least as seen so far in their attacks on Gaza, appear heedless of the damage they do, (or intend to do as much damage as possible). Our so-called "precision bombing" is just a lie, and we generally kill more non-combatants--innocent men, women, and children--than we do just cleanly picking off only the bad guys, not to mention destroying the infrastructures of their homes and villages. This is true of all wars and all participants. In war, there are no innocents, and every person killed is, by definition, a stinking enemy, and nearly every "hero" a murderer.

Leland said...

Using Michael Walzer's observation, for whatever it is worth; Hamas intentionally targeted civilians that even if they were military and carrying weapons, the terrorist that raped them, murdered them as the plead for mercy, and tortured them; those terrorists committed war crimes as directed by Hamas. Do I need to provide the provisions in the conventions that show those acts as war crimes, even if conducted against military targets?

With that in mind, it is hard to get to wherever Noah Feldman thinks he is taking us.

Jon Burack said...

It isn't even worth the effort to unravel this drivel in the Atlantic, unsurprisingly. Read the Hamas Covenant for goodness sakes, as some here have. As has been said, some things only an intellectual can believe. I mean the intellectuals at the Atlantic in this case. Only they can read that Covenant and come up with this mind-numbing absurdity:

"As for Hamas, its 1988 charter called for the liberation of Palestine and for Muslim sovereignty over the entire land... and does not expressly specify the destruction of Israelis in whole or in part."

The "expressly part" is already there for those who know how to read. But if not, October 7 was express enough for me and for any sane person. Present company included, and you know who you are.

Eric Rathmann said...

Was the word genocide used for the Ukraine-Russia war which features two ethnicities? Or Clinton's Serbian-Kosovo wars in which areas with Serbians were bombed and perhaps 9,000 civilians dead. Those weren't smart bombs as we accidentally bombed Sophia, Bulgaria and the Chinese Embassy in Belgrade. And the anti-war folks were silent.
The Palestinians/Gazans/Hamas invaded Israel in what would normally be an act of war and, like WW2, the attacked country has a right to respond, without ceasefires, and bomb the attacking countries. And their civilians will die in the process as long as reasonably precautions are taken. Gaza is a standalone entity, not an apartheid area lacking in home rule.

Robert Cook said...

"Israel is in a fight for its' existence...."

No, it's not. Do you really think Hamas has the capacity to destroy Israel?

"And Crack, don't sugar-coat it. You hate Jews. You put up a torrent of verbiage, but it doesn't obscure that basic fact. Sad!"

At least as shown in his comments, there is zero indication Crack hates Jews. This is just the standard knee-jerk name-calling from people who either believe any criticism of Israel can only be "antisemitism"--which shows them to be stone stupid--or by people who know better and make such accusations simply to invalidate any criticisms of Israel by anyone, including many Jews in Israel and around the world. If it is made forbidden to make any criticism of a given entity, that entity never has to answer for its behavior.

Mike (MJB Wolf) said...

Damn, Jamie! Bringing the concise true doctrine to Althouse comments. Nice work!

hombre said...

@Crack re (12:20) I can see now that you have this well in hand. Only Israel has received outside aid that has been turned to military advantage. Hamas had to dig 300 mis. of tunnels with Tinkertoys borrowed from their children and make 5000 0ct. 7th rockets from milk cartons.

The solution must be another ceasefire, you know like the one that ended on October 7th, 2023.

Or perhaps the answer is for those pesky "occupying" Israelis to withdraw from Gaza. No, they did that in 2005. So what do you mean by "occupy"? Oh, Israel! The Jews are "occupying" Israel. So the only solution to end the "occupation" is for seven million jews to pull out of land they have inhabited for 3000 years and leave their country created by the UN as penance for displacing 750,000 Arabs 75 years ago.

You, Crack, and the others "in the know" will figure out where those Jews can go when the time comes, but we know where it won't be, Arab nations. (See the link in my post at 10:06.)

What a relief! Or, maybe, what a pathetically stupid, antisemitic load of shit.

Big Mike said...
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Big Mike said...

This post has been gnawing at me, and I realize why. The whole notion of a “cost-benefit analysis” involving human lives is absolutely repulsive. Does anyone besides me remember when it came out that Ford had done a cost-benefit analysis weighing human lives versus something on the order of $2 per vehicle to lower the risk of fire in the case of a rear end collision with a Pinto subcompact? Ford mathematically concluded that it made sense to not spend the money and let some number of people burn to death. The very knowledge that such a cost-benefit analysis had been performed — and that it came down against saving lives — doomed the Pinto as a car model and damned near doomed Ford itself.

What would a cost-benefit analysis purport to calculate? If no more than X number of babies are killed and no more than Y number of kibbutznikim are killed and no more than Z young Jewish women are raped and murdered, for some to be established values of X, Y, and Z, then that limits how many Hamas terrorists and Palestinian civilians are killed in retaliation? Does that even begin to make sense?

Lars Porsena said...

The rules are simple: you kill Israelis they kill you back.

Iman said...

This is just sad. Crack is whack.

narciso said...

if Hamas had a bioweapon, like hemorrhagic fever, they would not hesitate to use it

William said...

If Israel withers and dies, it will not be as a result of Cook's Crackpot reasoning. Rather it will be the result of someone like Noah Feldman's casuitries. The most vulnerable link in Israel's defense is its alliance with the USA. The left is beginning to do what they did with Diem and the subsequent governments in South Vietnam. It was their argument back then that since our allies in Vietnam weren't the embodiment of Western Ideals, then they weren't worth defending...After the North Vietnamese took power, they engaged in the ethnic cleansing of the Chinese who had been living there for centuries. They also summarily executed many who had been supportive of the old government. Some of these Chinese were given sanctuary in this country and China took in many others. So far as I can remember, none of this caused the new Communist government there to lose the support of the UN or of the left in this country. What happened to South Vietnam could happen to Israel.

Jamie said...

There have been zero Jews residing in Gaza since 2005. Some sources try to conflate Gaza and the West Bank, claiming something like 200,000 Jews living "there" without specifying which "there" contains how many.

Christians comprise less than 1% of the population of Gaza - al Jazeera says around 1,000 people, down from about 3,000 when Hamas took control there. (I wonder why they left... if they left.)

I don't think Crack hates Jews. I do think he would prefer a lack of Israel. We all keep saying, "When someone says what he wants to do, believe him" - and Crack has been very consistent in saying he wants Israel to evacuate itself and Israeli Jews to re-diaspora themselves to anywhere that will take them. I think one of the Carolinas was mentioned, for some reason?

So - it's not that he hates Jews. It's that he identifies strongly with Palestinians, and will bring any rhetorical weapon he can find to bear, including Pat effing Robertson and the effing United Nations, to try to bolster his position.

But as I and many others keep saying, dude, you cannot get around what your "oppressed" did to your "oppressors," and have expressed eager interest in doing again, continuously, until they're all gone. As a group, leaders and people together, not as one-off cab drivers and firebrand politics who, in a parliamentary system, cannot act alone.

This and racism/reparations are the only two areas where Crack seems to make common cause with the critical theorists.

William said...

The Weimar Republic in Germany was brought down not by the Nazis but by the left. They refused to form a coalition with the Christian Democrats to keep the Nazis out of power. The Communists felt that the Nazis if given power would create such a repressive regime that it would cause a popular revolt and that, like the Bolsheviks in Russia, the Communists would then be able to take power on behalf of the proletariat. But even more than this, the writings and art of the left at that time were like anti-Weimar propaganda. The Weimar Republic you see in George Grosz drawings or Brecht's plays is not a state you wish to see preserved. What could possibly be worse? The artists and intellectuals created a mindset that the Weimar Republic was not worth defending.....Something like this is going on with Netanyahu. The left in Israel really hate him. I don't know enough about their politics to comment. I will make this observation, however. Golda Meir like Netanyahu got caught flat footed. Someone more knowledgeable about Israeli politics can perhaps correct me, but I don't think she received anywhere near the same amount of opprobrium for the intelligence failure during her watch as he's currently receiving. Whatever Netanyahu's virtues or flaws, he's a better bet for the Jews there than the Hamas government that they see as his moral equivalent.

rcocean said...

The Atlantic is edited by a guy called Jeffrey Goldberg who is a Israeli dual-cititzen and served in the IDF as Prison guard. He later returned to Israel after his service in the Israeli army and wrote for the Jeruselum Post. Upon leaving that job, he came back to the USA and wrote for the Jewish Newspaper "The Forward". He was one of the leading cheerleaders for invading Iraq.

So....if he's publishing some guy called Feldman on "Genocide" its not to have him accuse Israel of doing it.

Usually, leftists and Neo-cons throw around accusations of "Genocide" like confettis at a new years eve party. Goldberg for example accused Assad and Sadam Huisan of "Genocide" for using Gas weapons and having weapons of Mass Destruction.

But now in November 2023, why we need to be super careful about calling people out for Genocide. Its a word full of nuance, and its use calls for fine judgement and precise legal wording. We don't want to falsely accuse anyone, and its so Gosh darn complex. Maybe a room full of King solomon's pondering for a year could uravel it all and reach a decision.
LOL.

To cut to the chase, Goldberg, the atlantic, and Feldman can't defend israel against charges of Genocide, beause that's what Isreal is doing. They're ethnicially cleansing Gaza. And so, the fall back on Obfuscation. Gosh, can we really say its Genocide, Gosh its so confusing and complex!

rcocean said...

Its incredible what Israel gets away with. They've killed almost 12, 000 civilians now, probably half of them kids and old people. The attack and bomb hospitals. They have people in the Isreali government talking about "People should leave Gaza" and others musing whether Europe and America can take them. They've cut off food, water, and electricity to 2 million poeple.

And the USA supplies them the bombs, and Europe cheers them on. And then on the other side of their mouth condemns "Evil Russia" for attacking "poor little Ukraine". And pile sanction after sanction on Putin and Russia.

Amazing.

Robert Cook said...

What's really appalling is that we are now giving $14 billion to Israel, with no debate in Congress, no input from we, the people whose money this is. And the same time, they can't come up with (won't agree to allocate) the cash to apply to needs here in our own country. They lie that there's no way to keep Social Security solvent, or to pay off student loan debts, etc., but hand out billions to Israel as if if were just a few bucks to help someone in the street to buy a cup of coffee and a buttered roll. Israel has plenty of its own money to spend on its war. How many billions have we given to Ukraine...75 billion? That's nearly $100 billion that could have been spent directly and entirely on homegrown needs here, productive expenditures rather than destructive expenditures.

chickelit said...

Cook mused: “Do you really think Hamas has the capacity to destroy Israel?“

I think that with Iranian support, the two could bleed Israel to death.
It seems to me that Mohammad’s doctrine is to blame here. I’m not reading or hearing the level of hatred expressed in that uncensored Hamas Charter. Why can’t Islam curb or soften its Jew-hatred? Why can’t Farrakhan?

chickelit said...

Rcocean wrote: “To cut to the chase, Goldberg, the atlantic, and Feldman can't defend israel against charges of Genocide, beause that's what Isreal is doing.”

That just your opinion, RC. You need to prove otherwise.

chickelit said...
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iowan2 said...

Cost benefit analysis is easy

Israels cost is blood and treasure. The benefit is real peace for a long time when they drastically trim the murderous, terrorist Herd of Hamas.

They only know and understand total domination and complete annihilation. The people of gaza are universally supportive of Hamas.

chickelit said...

@Cook: DC can’t even curb petty domestic retail theft: How are they supposed to curb foreign graft?

The Crack Emcee said...

TreeJoe said...

"Your statement is acting as if democratic elections are the way of the world."

No, my statement is acting like the Palestinians had a non-democratic election forced on them, like everything else, so, for Israel treating them so shitty - with America's help - they did what anyone else would do, and flipped the world the bird, to elect Hamas:

2006 Audio Emerges of Hillary Clinton Proposing Rigging Palestine Election: 'We should have made sure that we did something to determine who was going to win'

"The people of Gaza are under terrorist-dictator rule by an organization sponsored by Iran and others."

Again, too simple. You're overlooking Bibi - Israel - giving Hamas financial support. The honest way to say it is, the people of Gaza are living under a liberation organization, sponsored by by anyone who does NOT want to see a two-state solution.

"It sucks for them. And it will be God awful bloody, but the only way to rid yourself of that presence is through bloody rebellion. It's not going to happen by election, and frankly Israel can't do it."

That's just warped. What "sucks for them" is Britain's betrayal. The Palestinians were campaigning for independence from British rule when Britain handed the land over to the Zionists. That's when the trouble started, in this place where, by everyone's account, religions used to get along.

"The lack of such rebellion is actually more concerning and speaks to why Israel has to do what it is doing."

Y'all got a million justifications for mass murder, none of them based in reality.

Hey Skipper said...

@Robert Cook: The U.S., in virtually all its war-making, and Israel, at least as seen so far in their attacks on Gaza, appear heedless of the damage they do, (or intend to do as much damage as possible). Our so-called "precision bombing" is just a lie, and we generally kill more non-combatants--innocent men, women, and children--than we do just cleanly picking off only the bad guys, not to mention destroying the infrastructures of their homes and villages.

Having been there, got the T-shirt: you have no idea what you are talking about.

The Crack Emcee said...

Robert Cook said...

"At least as shown in his comments, there is zero indication Crack hates Jews."

BUT THEY WON'T LET THAT STOP THEM:

hombre said...

"What a pathetically stupid, antisemitic load of shit."

The Crack Emcee said...

Big Mike,

"Young Jewish women are raped" appears to be the new "40 decapitated babies" claim out there. If I say Jews are pissing on Palestinians, I link to it. Y'all say "young Jewish women are raped" and assert that makes it true. I've seen nothing of it.

Where's the evidence "young Jewish women are raped"?

NOTE: I'm not saying it didn't happen. Just that I've seen zero evidence of it.

The Crack Emcee said...

Lars Porsena said...

"The rules are simple: you kill Israelis they kill you back."

But - if they kill anyone else, take their land, and kill and imprison them - well, they really are "The Chosen Ones," ain't they?

As Christopher Hitchens said, Zionism is a waste of Judaism.

The Crack Emcee said...

Iman said...

"Crack is whack."

How long did you sit, scratching your chin, coming up with THAT one?

The Crack Emcee said...

narciso said...

"if Hamas had a bioweapon, like hemorrhagic fever, they would not hesitate to use it"

Duh. Israel has nukes. What would you do against a criminal nation with nukes?

I can tell y'all swallow propaganda because you talk about Hamas as "the other" when every Holocaust doc reminds us human beings do these things. Not animals, or savages, but people like you, pushed over the edge.

Y'all just don't want to acknowledge it's Israel and the U.S. doing the pushing.

The Crack Emcee said...

William said...

"If Israel withers and dies,..."

What? Peace might return to Palestine? What a catastrophe.

The Crack Emcee said...

chickelit said...

"It seems to me that Mohammad’s doctrine is to blame here."

Not the Zionists killing people, claiming they're special, and everything belongs to them? Wow. Albert Einstein would beg to differ.

The Crack Emcee said...

chickelit said...

"That just your opinion, RC. You need to prove otherwise."

The people who provide no linked evidence are always demanding it. Incredible.

The Crack Emcee said...

iowan2 said...

"Cost benefit analysis is easy"

This ought be good:

"Israels cost is blood and treasure. The benefit is real peace for a long time when they drastically trim the murderous, terrorist Herd of Hamas."

Ha. A "real peace for a long time" when everyone sees the blood they can't wash off their hands? Riiiight. That's not peace. That's warped Zionists, replaying The Zone of Interest, but with them on top.

"They only know and understand total domination and complete annihilation."

And you only know and understand propaganda made by people committing mass murder. You haven't seen or read anything challenging that view because we're hardly allowed to see Palestinians - we're only TOLD ABOUT THEM. And that's media manipulation at it's finest.

"The people of gaza are universally supportive of Hamas."

This is a bald-faced lie:

Polls Show Majority of Gazans Were Against Breaking Ceasefire; Hamas and Hezbollah Unpopular Among Key Arab Publics: "57% of Gazans express at least a somewhat positive opinion of Hamas"

BTW - You could've Googled "how much support does hamas have in gaza?" yourself. You're welcome.

Kevin said...

The Word ‘Genocide’ Has An Actual Meaning

So does the word ‘racism’, but they don’t worry about that much these days.

Leland said...

Cook mused: “Do you really think Hamas has the capacity to destroy Israel?“

Israel doesn’t need to wait until all the Jews can be killed by Hamas to respond to Hamas desire to kill them all, especially after Hamas has proven and admitted they will try.

To cut to the chase, Goldberg, the atlantic, and Feldman can't defend israel against charges of Genocide, beause that's what Isreal is doing. They're ethnicially cleansing Gaza.

Hamas is not an ethnicity. It is a political party.

iowan2 said...

What's really appalling is that we are now giving $14 billion to Israel, with no debate in Congress, no input from we, the people

Cook, you the people get together every two years like clock work. ALL of the House of Representatives, 1/3 of the senate.

YOU the people keep electing the ones giving money to Israel. Stop voting for them. There is lots of debate, but YOU keep supporting the same old agenda.

hombre said...

rcocean: "Its incredible what Israel gets away with. They've killed almost 12, 000 civilians now, probably half of them kids and old people."

As verified by the Hamas Ministry of Health.

hombre said...

"They're ethnicially cleansing Gaza."

What could be the motivation for making such an absurd statement? Hmmm.

Big Mike said...

NOTE: I'm not saying it didn't happen. Just that I've seen zero evidence of it.

You and Kamala Harris. Which of you is lazier and more stupid.

The Crack Emcee said...

Big Mike said...
NOTE: I'm not saying it didn't happen. Just that I've seen zero evidence of it.

You and Kamala Harris. Which of you is lazier and more stupid.

Thanks for the evidence, BM = Bowel Movement

hombre said...

12:31: Crack is reduced to citing Robert Cook to establish his bona fides. LOL!

And then there is this: "BUT THEY WON'T LET THAT STOP THEM."

"THEY", "THEM"?

"US" would evidently be Crack, the Hamas terrorists and their other supporters. Fair enough. I'm pleased to be "them" to their "us." (My reference points here would be 38, yes 38, anti-Israel posts on this thread.)

Jamie said...

Overall, 57% of Gazans express at least a somewhat positive opinion of Hamas—along with similar percentages of Palestinians in the West Bank (52%) and East Jerusalem (64%)—though Gazans who express this opinion of Hamas are fewer than the number of Gazans who have a positive view of Fatah (64%).

But it is organizations like Palestinian Islamic Jihad (PIJ) and Lion’s Den that receive the most widespread popular support in Gaza. About three quarters of Gazans express support for both groups, including 40% who see the Lion’s Den in a “very positive” light, an attitude shared by a similar percentage of West Bank residents. Moreover, when it comes to Iran, which has strongly supported and potentially helped coordinate the attack, about half of Gazans view Tehran as either a “friend of the country” (29%) or security partner (28%), compared to less than a third of West Bankers who would say the same.


The above is from the article Crack linked to. I linked to it a couple of days ago, somewhere on this blog. So, maybe not exactly the point he was trying to make.

Fatah, BTW, is the PA, which was the PLO. And anyone of adult or near-adult years in the 1980s may remember the PLO. They have supposedly moderated... except for the whole paying stipends to suicide bombers' families thing and the like.

n.n said...

There is a profound clarity of quantity, quality, and attribution to reporting Israel's response to Hamas's abortion, rape, and abduction parade. That said, the second state solution failed with another and recurring Arab Spring with palestinian progress in transjordan.

The Crack Emcee said...

Jamie said...

"The above is from the article Crack linked to. I linked to it a couple of days ago, somewhere on this blog. So, maybe not exactly the point he was trying to make."

I was refuting one statement - "The people of gaza are universally supportive of Hamas" - which the article does.

What's wrong with you? Are you determined to undermine me? Is there some fact you, or anyone else has presented, to sway me from my version of the situation? I gave you evidence the Zionists started the terrorism - repeatedly - you haven't refuted it. I gave you Jewish Israeli Journalists - you haven't refuted them. You just keep dogging me for not agreeing with the narrative of a racist theocracy.

The Crack Emcee said...

n.n said...

"the second state solution failed"

Is anyone going to acknowledge Bibi's very-active role in that outcome?

hombre said...

"What's wrong with you? Are you determined to undermine me?"

This because Jamie used a Crack link that actually contradicts Crack's repetitive, obviously false claim that Gazans don't support Hamas.

It's bad enough that he doesn't read our links, but he apparently doesn't read some of his own.

P.S. I was mistaken to assert that Crack had posted 38 times on this thread. I apologize for the error.

mikee said...

I, for one, look forward to the Palestinians turning on Hamas, recognizing them as the Iranian puppets they are, the criminal thugs they are, the murderous death cult they are. I'm having a look way, way, down the line and haven't seen any evidence of it yet, but I'm still looking. Maybe that anti-Hamas action isn't visible because Hamas kills opposition without hesitation, maybe it isn't there at all because the death cult has infected the entire population of Gaza, who knows? But I'm still looking for the repudiation of the death cult, eventually, even if it has to occur after re-education of the population following unconditional surrender and war crime trials for Hamas.

The Crack Emcee said...

A Grim Milestone: Journalist Death Toll Tops 53 as Israel Kills More Reporters in Gaza and Lebanon

The Crack Emcee said...

We Are Not Numbers: Palestinian Journalist Ahmed Alnaouq Mourns 21 Family Members Killed by Israel

hombre said...

Crack at 11:00, 11:17: Hook. Line. Sinker.

Hey Skipper said...

Crack: You say you don't hate Jews, and are skeptical of atrocity claims without proof, yet credulously swallow Palestinian casualty claims.

Odd double standard there.

Despite not hating Jews, why do you remind me so much of this person?

The Crack Emcee said...

hombre said...
"What's wrong with you? Are you determined to undermine me?"

This because Jamie used a Crack link that actually contradicts Crack's repetitive, obviously false claim that Gazans don't support Hamas."

Another lie: show me where I said Gazans don't support Hamas. I refuted one statement - "The people of gaza are universally supportive of Hamas" - which you can't prove either. Why should I talk to you, hombre , if you're gonna lie?

Y'all are either dishonest, can't read for shit, or you don't grasp what you read, at all.

hombre said...

"Another lie: show me where I said Gazans don't support Hamas."

Well okay, Crack. If Gazans do support Hamas terrorists then they cannot be exempt from responsibility for the October 7th massacre, can they. They are terrorist enablers, not innocent victims.

(But, but, he says AGAIN. The elections installing Hamas were forced on them and they haven't had another. Blah, blah, blah.)

hpudding said...

Wow. I see I can’t take a break from this blog for one day without the self-appointed Al Sharpton of the Middle East, DJ Crack, rampaging through the place like a(n involuntarily) celibate bull in a China shop! Hot damn and holy hell does this lunatic need some sense smacked into the back of his fool head again! Well, here goes…

Citing Jewish anti-Zionists? Martyrs and useful idiots come in all varieties. There are plenty of Palestinian martyrs and useful idiots. There are even Americans too unhinged to know how to act with dignity - white, black any color. Martyrs and useful idiots. Welcome to the world.

Didn’t see evidence of mass rape? I did. But I didn’t store the disgusting footage or links on my hard drive like you do with your own war porn. You can find it yourself, and add it to your collection of graphic images from the bombing campaigns - assuming your erection for this sort of thing hasn’t already reached its peak.

“That’s when the trouble started, in this place where, by everyone’s account, religions used to get along.”

Sure, the way they “got along” in Lebanon - under murderous domination by Muslim supremacists. Even the Samaritans who have also lived there for 3,000 years attest to it. But you’d excuse that as a natural, organic, “precolonial” form of indigenous genocidal violence. And since it happened before TikTok was invented to broadcast it to the world you would have just called it a conspiracy theory involving false flags.

hpudding said...

“Can tell y’all swallow propaganda because you talk about Hamas as “the other” when every Holocaust doc reminds us human beings do these things. Not animals, or savages, but people like you, pushed over the edge.”

Go ahead and show me once where the Nazis’ victims went on mass murder rape rampaging sprees of civilians. Or Armenians as they were targeted by the Turks. Or anyone. Take your pick.


“If Israel withers and dies…

What? Peace might return to Palestine? What a catastrophe.”


Ok. Then if Palestine withers and dies… what” Peace might return to the whole land including Israel! What a catastrophe.

You call one of those genocidal and not the other because you have the ethics of an antisemitic toad too low on Maslow’s hierarchy to see the hypocrisy.


“What a pathetically stupid, antisemitic load of s—-“

The shoe fits. And while we’re at it, tell us more about “white poison minds” along with whatever other bigoted crap you spew.

hpudding said...

And then we’ve got Cook coming to the rescue…

“At least as shown in his comments, there is zero indication Crack hates Jews.”

You may be right, Cook. But what is undeniable is that he hates Jews being able to command a military. (In which many minorities also proudly participate and regularly climb the ranks). Or being able to govern a country. That much is clear.

So as long as you think Jews have no such rights then you can claim to not hate them.

And which other people can be denied such basic rights without admitting to hating them? Yeah, I thought so.

Note: When Crackhead “links” - it’s to opinions and pictures. Facts and any kind of objective reasoning don’t excite him nearly as much.

chickelit said...

Crack projected: “Y'all are either dishonest, can't read for shit, or you don't grasp what you read, at all.”

chickelit said...

Oh and Crack, it’s likely the Mohammed (PNBUH) penned his murderous diktat about killing every Jew behind every tree well before the concept of Zionist was even formed—especially the form of Zionism that Einstein deplored. But thanks for showing your NOI sympathies.

iowan2 said...

BTW - You could've Googled "how much support does hamas have in gaza?" yourself. You're welcome.

A poll taken last week as the people of Gaza. "do you agree with the Oct 7th attack on Israel?

86% of the people agreed. Agreed with decapitating babies. Slicing the breasts of women still alive. Cooking live infants in ovens, forcing their mothers to watch, and listen to their babies screech in pain.

And you Crack defend all of it.

The Crack Emcee said...

hombre said...

"If Gazans do support Hamas terrorists,..."

Are you retarded? Why can't your dumb ass say "if SOME Gazans do support Hamas"?

The Crack Emcee said...

Hey Skipper said...

"Crack: You say you don't hate Jews, and are skeptical of atrocity claims without proof, yet credulously swallow Palestinian casualty claims."

Who says I do that? You guys. I never said that. It's just been asserted about me. That's how you treat Palestinians: you're TOLD HOW THEY ARE but you don't check yourselves. Nobody's shown me swallowing or promoting Palestinian casualty claims. I usually quote the same humanitarian services everyone else uses.

Wise up.

"Despite not hating Jews, why do you remind me so much of this person?"

It's your twisted brain - ask yourself.

The Crack Emcee said...

mikee said...

"I, for one, look forward to the Palestinians turning on Hamas, recognizing them as the Iranian puppets they are, the criminal thugs they are, the murderous death cult they are"

And then they can demand Bibi take the money back he's paid Hamas to help him thwart the two state solution, right?

Man, you guys love telling half-truths.

The Crack Emcee said...

iowan2 said...

"Agreed with decapitating babies."

Show me. I've heard of 1 dead baby on Oct. 7 and it wasn't decapitated. Show me more, from that day, with no heads.

Otherwise, know you're a liar and a fool.

Hey Skipper said...

@Hey Skipper: Crack: You say you don't hate Jews, and are skeptical of atrocity claims without proof, yet credulously swallow Palestinian casualty claims.

@Crack: Who says I do that?

The evidence does. I looked at parts of your linkalanche. They were so tendentious I could hear the axe grinding whenever my cursor got close. You endlessly engage in argument by authority — how many times have you cited something as true merely because Einstein, or some UN knucklehead said it? You have demanded evidence that some part of that Hamas tragedy occurred, just like that hate-addled Hate Crime Commissioner, when it is easily enough found, and widely attested to.

It is readily apparent that when you can no longer ignore that the Hamas horror actually happened, that it will change your mind on nothing, and your demand for proof will be memholed. Just like the woman that is so similar to you.

And yet not one word about how totalitarian, supremacist, and eliminationist Islam factors into this godawful mess, while harping repeatedly on a few Zionist terrorist acts from 80 years ago. Maybe you could take the time to tot up the lives lost to Islamic terrorism over that same period.

And maybe, just maybe, wonder how much different the region woul be if Iran, Hezbollah, and Hamas weren't so hell bent on destroying Irael, and murdering Jews wherever they can.

You are worse than a 9/11 truther.