From "Israel’s military searches Gaza’s largest hospital, which it says hid a secret Hamas facility" (NYT).
AND: Here's the corresponding article in The Washington Post: "Israeli troops scour Gaza’s al-Shifa Hospital for evidence of Hamas presence."
The search of Israeli forces of Gaza’s largest hospital stretched into its second day Thursday amid the wait for more concrete evidence of extensive Hamas infrastructure at the facility that precipitated the raid. Israel also said no further evidence of Hamas activities in the hospital was scheduled to be made public for now, following the release Wednesday of photographs and video showing small caches of rifles and laptops that the Israel Defense Forces identified as Hamas material. The military did not show evidence of tunnels or a command center it has said exists under the hospital.... Israel is under intense pressure to bolster its long-standing claims that Gaza hospitals, and Shifa in particular, served as Hamas hideouts, its justification for targeting the health-care facilities....
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95 comments:
I don't understand why the hospital wasn't surrendered to the IDF to preserve human life. Why fight over it? In fact, why fight for Gaza at all if there's no chance of holding it? If civilian lives matter so much, what's the point?
Also, there was plenty of time to clear out. If civilians could leave, and apparently a lot of effort was exerted to allow them to, then so could Hamas.
Really? They act like this unedited raw video wasn't widely shared yesterday by the IDF. Also they make caution sound nefarious without offering the context that three Israeli soldiers were killed in booby-trapped tunnels
in the command center underneath the mosque in Gaza City.
Hey NYT, exactly how did "the Israeli military take control of Gaza’s largest hospital"?
Did they simply walk in and take over?
No?
There was a long fight with Hamas terrorists who were hiding out there?
Congratulations. The war crime by Hamas has now been firmly established, and therefore the fact that it wasn't a war crime by Israel has also been established
Everything else is frosting on the cake
What assholes at the NYT. You want an immediate video tour? How about you wait for them to deal with all the long traps first.
How hard was it to take over the hospital? If it was defended it means Hamas was there.
You can trust the NYT and the rest of the pro-Biden husk puppet corruption-ignoring Hack-D press on this issue.
mmm hmmm.
"Israel’s ability to prove its claim could be key to whether its foreign allies continue to support its military response to Hamas’s Oct. 7 attack on Israel."
NYT mediaswine attempting to create a future consistent with leftist preferences instead of just reporting the facts.
Of course, the "ability to prove its claim" has absolutely nothing to do with the barbarity of the October 7th massacre, Hamas' terrorist history and their promise of future attacks. And, Hamas' use of civilians as shields has not been proven in the past. Right? /S
NYT: Enemy of the people and the truth.
One day this lazy journalism phase of “no evidence” will come to an end, if not by journalists improving the quality of their product, then by the abandonment of any consumption of their product. In the meantime, focus group suggest the phase works well to manipulate viewpoints, so they’ll keep doing it without recognizing the flaw built into their focus.
"Forget it, Ann. It's the NYT."
The NYT promoted the 500-dead/destroyed hospital hoax of the Hamas-run Gaza health ministry. The NYT is the paper of record for fantasy stories.
https://themessenger.com/news/al-jazeera-reporter-cuts-off-gaza-hospital-interview-after-patient-says-hamas-is-hiding-among-wounded
The Al Jazeera reporter was at the Al-Aqsa Martyrs Hospital in Gaza, interviewing an elderly Palestinian man who said, according to a rough translation: "What's happening is criminal! Why is the resistance hiding among us? Why don't they go to hell and hide there? They are not resistance!"
In the clip, the reporter, whose identity is unclear, then turns away from his interview subject and appears to quickly change the subject. The man continues to talk and tries to follow the journalist, even as he's walking away from him.
Meanwhile, Hamas sympathizers have taken over the Bay Bridge in SF.
Looks like Israel is scrambling to shore up their prior...speculations, (to be generous).
Tactically tunnels under the hospital work as well with or without entrances. The hospital protects those underground areas, whether they're accessed from elsewhere or not.
Oh, now the Times expresses skepticism. Where is their skepticism over Hamas estimates of Palestinian casualties?
“Really? They act like this unedited raw video wasn't widely shared yesterday by the IDF. Also they make caution sound nefarious without offering the context that three Israeli soldiers were killed in booby-trapped tunnels
in the command center underneath the mosque in Gaza City.”
The NYT, as expected, ignoring the video evidence of what was found in (multiple weapons caches) and under (very deep tunnels) the hospital. Many of us watched the videos - why didn’t the NYT reporters? Were they some of the same western reporters embedded with Hamas, and wearing green Hamas headbands, when accompanying Humas, as they so brutally invaded Israel? Or just fellow travelers, maintaining the Narrative, in the face of significant evidence to the contrary?
The other thing is that Hamas had apparently denuded the hospitals of medical supplies and the like, for their own use. The Israelis have brought in truckloads of such in the last several days, including much needed incubators. All well documented.
No amount of evidence will be enough for the NYT and its readers.
Hamas: oppressed
Israel: oppressors
That’s all they need to “know”
Hamas has produced "no evidence" that the building is a hospital, yet the Joesph Goebbels Institute (formerly the New York Times) continues to publish its claim.
Who gives a shit if there is a tunnel under the hospital or not? Hamas is evil, is/was supported by most of Gaza. The Gazans fucked around and they are finding out. The querolous reporters remind me of the Animal Shelter ad lady whose voice is breaking because a dog will die if you don't send money immediately. Fuck it. Put down the stray dogs and the stray Gazans.
As Mike (MJB Wolf) pointed out, there are videos, a few of them, from this hospital showing signs of rooms where hostages were most likely kept. I mean, patients were not kept strapped to chairs in concrete rooms. Or...maybe that's a signature treatment at this hospital. Other rooms where weapons caches were left behind.
I know, more than half the world will tell us that Israel could have made up the videos from anywhere. Sure...they could. A quick question would be why do you take everything Hamas doles out as truth, but question anything uttered by Israel as a lie? Weird.
This hospital was clearly a center, was armed, and was fought over. Had it just been a hospital, none of this would have happened and it would not have taken the IDF over a week to take this space.
Anyway...fog of war is one thing. Denial of obvious truth is something that cannot be battled. The IDF has a job to do and they're doing it. They have no other choice.
Then there's this from Instapundit today presented verbatim:
NOTHING TO SEE HERE, MOVE ALONG: Al Jazeera Reporter Cuts off Gaza Hospital Interview After Patient Says Hamas Is Hiding Among Wounded. “In the clip, the reporter, whose identity is unclear, then turns away from his interview subject and appears to quickly change the subject. The man continues to talk and tries to follow the journalist, even as he’s walking away from him.”
Boy that clearly illustrates the DNC-Media/Al Jazeera mindset (see no evil!) at work, doesn't it?
Apart from the fact that it is absurd to be decrying the lack of evidence (never mind the evidence they have already produced!) so quickly after they took control of the hospital, Hamas uses many hospitals/schools/ etc. as bases. Must Israel find a base in every one? How big a deal would a mistake be if Israel followed all Geneva requirements?
Mike (MJB Wolf) said...
Really? They act like this unedited raw video wasn't widely shared yesterday by the IDF.
I'll see your IDF video and raise you one from Al Jazeera where an elderly Palestinian man admits that Hamas is hiding among the populace, right before the reporter cuts him off!
"If civilian lives matter so much, what's the point?"
As Hamas leaders have made very clear, they are perfectly wiling to sacrifice "civilian lives." They matter mostly as propaganda fodder.
Hey, NYT, why do you think the IDF are fighting around mosques and schools and hospitals at all? Why waste time and effort and lives there?
I'd like to see the double walls though.
I will take: things that don't belong in hospital
not sure about media
I wonder if New Yorkers will wake up to the long enduring antisemitism of the NY Times.
There's even been a quickly ended interview of a patient at the hospital who started talking about Hamas fighters being among the patients and in the hospital.
How delightful if this exposes the NY Times and destroys their readership. At least among the young. Boomers and DC functionaries seem devoted to the lie of the NY Times.
I am waiting for Crack and Cookie to tell us the IDF faked it all.
Just like the moon landing and 9-11.
I enjoy watching some of the ground combat video emerging in recent days. Shayatet Matkal and others have clearly not been sitting on their butts eating kishkas.
We might as well watch. After all we're paying for it.
I wish I was more shocked by the fact that most of the world is entirely willing to believe and take the side of Hamas in all of this. It is very depressing, even if it is no longer surprising.
Looks like Israel is scrambling to shore up their prior...speculations
“...however much you deny the truth, the truth goes on existing, as it were, behind your back".” ― George Orwell, Facing Unpleasant Facts: Narrative Essays
North o da 101, I think I beat both of us to that link, although someone else furnished a paste-it-yourself version already as well. Nice to see the truth getting there faster than Cook can deny its existence. And that old guy in our shared link sure blows out of the water the local Palestinian spokespeople who post here.
If you can't handle the facts just stop trying to rewrite history one comment at a time. Civilization is at war with barbarism. Yes it's that simple.
You know, I was wondering what that horrible screeching noise was: turns out it was the NYT, dragging that goalpost from the field to the middle of the parking lot.
Just to be clear: as of this morning, finding Blofeld's sooper-seekrit volcano lair under the hospital is the new NYT criteria for 'justifying' Israel's response. No lair, no justice! (And please: no mention of what actually happened on October 7! It was an attack, OK? Just your average everyday attack, happens all the time, I mean [[eye-rolls]] some people just over-react! Amirite?)
This kind of time-wasting, brain cell-destroying bullshit is why I cancelled my NYT subscription in 2005. In those days, the time-wasting was the non-stop Bush Derangement Syndrome (prototypical 2005 Sunday Lifestyle: "In the Hamptons They Hired Lesbian Doulas -- Until Bush Ruined Everything.") Now it's the Hamas Hospital Blood Libel. Fucking hell. The non-stop poison and stupidity the NYT injects into the brains of the world cannot be justified or excused.
NYT Delenda Est! I think the IDF should look for Hamas tunnels in mid-town, under 620 8th Avenue.
I do not trust either of these propaganda sheets. Get your information somewhere else if you want the truth.
If you insist on using your marxist decoder ring to try and understand foreign conflicts, try this take on for size:
The Israelites were among the indigenous tribes when Rome tried to colonize Israel and force them to pay tribute to Caesar, in addition to renaming their land after Israel's sworn enemies, the Philistines (from which the modern form Palestina was derived. All this took place at least 150 years before the founding of Islam, which was before they sacked Jerusalem in order to build the Al Aqsa mosque on top of Solomon's temple. So why are you marxists siding with the white Roman colonizers over the (light) brown Semitic tribes of Judea? Because you are pro-oppressor?
Israel needn't prove to me that the hospital is (or is seated upon) an Hamas stronghold. I respect Israel's military enough to assume that they are not arbitrarily targeting locations or facilities that the know are NOT being used by Hamas. What's the NYT's theory here -- that the IDF just thought it would be fun to take a break from ACTUALLY trying to destroy Hamas and go after this one particular place Israel knows has nothing to do with Hamas?
I suppose it's possible that Israel could mistakenly target a facility that has nothing to do with Hamas. It's not at all plausible that it would do so knowingly, or in the absence of any evidence.
"Hamas: oppressed
"Israel: oppressors"
Wrong.
Palestinians: oppressed
Israel: oppressors
"The military did not show evidence of tunnels or a command center it has said exists under the hospital...."
That's a rather odd thing to say. Israel knew there were tunnels under the hospital because Israel actually built the hospital and the tunnels under the hospital.
Plus, the only thing that would have officially made it a "command center" would have been to find Hamas commanders in there. But they probably escaped dresses as "peaceful civilians. All a command center is is where commanders hang out. The IDF did find weapons and Hamas uniforms inside the hospital.
If you are going to go to war... setting up at a hospital is kind of smart.
#NormJoke
NYT is publishing all the handmade tales that have em-pathetic appeal and betting that Israel will take a knee and continued migration, abortion, rape, torture, and abduction, perhaps in a ceasefire a la the Iraq war, which preceded the second Iraq war following Obama's premature withdrawal.
NYT et al framed the impetus for ending the first Iraq war with a single reason, too. Hamas reign of terror includes but is not limited to usurpation of civilian facilities and persons. The UN made a mistake to not stand with Hamas in order to mitigate their diversity and equitable inclusion inside the Gaza territory. Israel, and people in the Gaza territory, cannot afford to repeat Obama's premature withdrawal from Iraq, and Biden's catastrophic withdrawal from Afghanistan.
I don't think Israel attacks hospitals for the perverse pleasure of attacking hospitals. Hamas, however, did launch a well thought out operation for raping, killing and kidnapping women... I'm sure Israel will make a lot of mistakes and will kill many civilians and children during the course of this operation. Isn't that something the leadership of Hamas should have factored into their plans when they were plotting to rape, kill, and kidnap women?.....Do the Hamas warriors exist to protect the well being of the people of Gaza or do the people of Gaza exist to protect the well being of the warriors of Gaza? Some clarification of this issue is needed.
"Wrong.
Palestinians: oppressed
Israel: oppressors"
As someone who has published a 350+ page academic book on oppressing and oppression, wrong.
Both show aspects of oppressing and oppression, but in this case the oppressing seems very clearly in the Oct 7 attack. Palestinians are oppressed by their own leaders, which is much more common throughout world history than cross-cultural oppressing.
I find it ironic that the Palestinians claim there were no Jews in Judea before 1947. But the reason the Koran singles out the Jews and not the Finns, Chinese, Brits, or any other group is that the Jews were the local enemy when the Koran was written.
https://hotair.com/jazz-shaw/2023/11/16/hamas-hq-hospital-search-results-n592845
The coverage continues in that tone for a fair bit. In fact, you have to scroll down past nine paragraphs before you learn that the IDF found duffel bags in an MRI lab in the basement containing assault rifles, grenades, and Hamas military uniforms. What sort of MRIs were these people running in that lab that would require that type of “equipment?”
At Townhall, Spencer Brown offers a more realistic assessment of the search results. The IDF obviously hit pay dirt.
As Israel Defense Forces continued clearing out Hamas terrorists around Gaza City this week, they made their way to the Al-Shifa Hospital, long believed to be a base of operations for the Iran-backed terrorists, and found exactly what they expected: weapons caches, bastardized hospital equipment, and all the signs of a Hamas HQ hidden within a hospital to use Gazan civilians as human shields.
IDF Spokesman Jonathan Conricus released a video of his survey of just one area inside the Al-Shifa hospital, an apparent MRI center. Explaining that the IDF had secured the area, Conricus said what the IDF found has “totally confirmed, without any doubt, that Hamas systematically uses hospitals in their military operations in violation of international law.”
Instead of just repeating what the IDF or Hamas says and then trying to figure out which one will sell more newspapers, maybe the NYT should imbed one of their reporters -- an actual New York reporter, flown at their expense, to Gaza, not some local green-headband-wearing "stringer" -- with the IDF.
Think of the Pulitzers waiting for the reporter who is first into a supposed (possibly booby-trapped) underground Hamas lair only to reveal that it was simply a harmless child's play room!
I mean, I'm not going to hold my breath.
I don't think Israel attacks hospitals for the perverse pleasure of attacking hospitals.
Nope, but the Israeli hospital in Ashkelon has been hit by Hamas rocket fire seven times since 10/7 and the response from the WHO and UN crybabies has been... crickets. Ditto our Commander in Chief. Of course the lickspittle press never asks Biden about the Israeli hospitals either.
This whole article is absurd. This is a hospital that is off-limits to attack under International law. I love the Israeli justification for committing a war crime by attacking and bombing hospitals. "Hey, Hamas might have a command center underneath". well so what?
Even if they did have a "Command center" how does that justify killing hospital patients. Or taking attacking the Hospital? You mean Hamas has only one command center? I thought they had zillions of miles of tunnels all over Gaza. And what is HQ or "Command center"? Its just people with a few radios and computers. WHo can be moved anywhere at anytime. Do people think critically, or are they so full of hate, they can't do so?
Look, the real reason Israel is killing civilians and bombing hospitals is because they want to drive the Palestinians out of Gaza. Its called "ethnic cleansing". Others have labeled it "Genocide". Rightwing leaders of Israel Government have admitted it (of course, they didn't use the word Genocide). The death count of dead palestinians so far is 11,000 including 4,000 kids. How much of Gaza has been destroyed? 25 percent? 50 percent
And all done with USA supplied bombs. And cheered on by our bought-off souless "leaders" who'd probably chortle with delight if Israel dropped a Nuke on Gaza.
If Hamas was not at the hospital, then there would not have been any fighting at the hospital.
The Gazans know who and what their chosen leadership is - sadists, cowards and despicable subhumans and they knew that when they accepted them. The IDF needs to finish what Hamas started so that Hamas and its Gazan supporters understand the costs associated with sneak terror attacks. The objective should be to create mountains of rubble "between the river and the sea" where Gaza exists, then to make the rubble bounce.
If I saw you kill a stray dog, we’d have big problem ON. Including them in the discussion is just awful.
Blogger Robert Cook said...
"Hamas: oppressed
"Israel: oppressors"
Wrong.
Palestinians: oppressed
Israel: oppressors
Cook is now for genocide. I thought you commies did not like Hitler.
“I find it ironic that the Palestinians claim there were no Jews in Judea before 1947. But the reason the Koran singles out the Jews and not the Finns, Chinese, Brits, or any other group is that the Jews were the local enemy when the Koran was written.”
Jews have been there for maybe 3,000 years or so. Better than twice as long as the Muzzies. Notice the similar root in the name Judea, and Juden, apparently the German word for Jews. Yes, the land of the Jews.
The NYT is concerned about the lack of evidence that Hamas militarized a hospital in the same way that they wonder why there is no evidence of Joe Biden benefiting from Jim's and Hunter's international business dealings.
@Donald - get a grip , man! Dogs are dogs, people are people. If I have no problem eliminating barbaric, murderous people, do you think I will hesitate a moment to put down a stray dog? Gun and shovel! Gun and shovel!
So the NYT and WaPo have embedded journalist on the front line of super secret Hamas attacks into Israel but they can’t shake someone out of their bed to inspect a hospital where the fighting has stopped? Do either have journalists with Israeli forces?
If they wanted evidence they would have it. But they have chosen the narrative that no evidence is enough to justify the IDF’s actions.
Robert Cook said...
["Hamas: oppressed
"Israel: oppressors"]
"Wrong.
Palestinians: oppressed
Israel: oppressors"
What facts do you present in support of your assertion?
Robert Cook said...
["Hamas: oppressed
"Israel: oppressors"]
"Wrong.
Palestinians: oppressed
Israel: oppressors"
What facts do you present in support of your assertion?
Some context regarding war and hospitals from Human Rights Watch:
https://www.hrw.org/news/2017/02/08/iraq-mosul-battle-isis-used-hospital-base?utm
Under the laws of war applicable to the armed conflict in Iraq, hospitals and other medical facilities receive special protection. Armed forces or groups should not occupy medical facilities, undermining their protected status and placing civilians and civilian objects at risk. Even when medical facilities are used for military purposes, they are only subject to attack after a warning has been given, setting a reasonable time limit, and after the warning has gone unheeded.
The death count of dead palestinians [sic] so far is 11,000 including 4,000 kids.
@rcocean, so you’re another nitwit gullible enough to accept a casualty list from Hamas that is not independently validated by a neutral 3rd party.
How much of Gaza has been destroyed?
Obviously not enough, or the Palestinians would be releasing the hostages and suing for peace. And mean it this time. The IDF has a job that is simple to state: arrange it so that nothing like October 7th ever happens again. There is some number of dead Palestinians which will achieve this goal. Is is 2.2 million? Or something less than that? We shall learn.
"Cook is now for genocide. I thought you commies did not like Hitler."
Dr. Feelbad, you consistently comment and argue here on the level of a ten-year-old boy. Aren't you embarrassed? (A rhetorical question, as of course you're not. Like a ten-year-old boy, you seem to think you are making striking points.)
"'Israel: oppressors'
"As someone who has published a 350+ page academic book on oppressing and oppression, wrong.
"Both show aspects of oppressing and oppression, but in this case the oppressing seems very clearly in the Oct 7 attack. Palestinians are oppressed by their own leaders...."
Well, Hamas was long-funded by Netanyahu.
And, there's also this.
Michaël K
German commies didn't like Hitler, they were competing for power in Germany. US commies supported Hitler till Operation Barbarossa. Prior to that Hitler and Stalin were allies. To US commies Soviet Russia was their motherland and bank roll.
"no Jews in Judea..."
What should we call someone from Judea anyhow? Oh, wait a second...
Cook's comment illustrates the strong difference between anti-semitisms and most other -isms. Most others tend to see their victims of hate as being lesser, even nonhuman, worthy of derision.
Anti-semitism almost always takes the shape of fear of Jews being better, smarter, richer, even and especially when they do not have actual power. It's a perception of anxiety that causes people to single Jewish people out as being the actual source of their problems, they are portrayed as the arch-villains who take on the sins of whatever the powers want to not take responsibility for. They're the convenient scape-goats precisely because people actually think they are better not because they think they are worse.
The real oppressors throughout history have always used anti-semitism to distract their populace from changing the real underlying social and economic problems. In this case, Arab leaders from other countries who can export their perceived religious duties, making others the object of suffering and also perpetually punishing the Palestinian people for the perceived shame of losing wars. Palestinian leaders, of course, just are in it for the vast wealth from those Arab and Persian leaders as well as the "aid" that comes from countries around the world. When I learned that Arafat had died with $1 Billion in the bank I knew right then who the real oppressor was and how he and those who followed him are willing to sacrifice their own brethren for the sake of wealth.
Israel is really the best hope for the whole region, but it's hard for people who have been conditioned by antisemitism to see that, because for them, it's always the Jews fault.
Paddy O. Mind sharing the title of your book?
Bill, happily!
Hope for the Oppressor: Discovering Freedom Through Transformative Community
In an attack by aerial bombing, secondary explosions from stored munitions is one of the most certain ways of confirming the presence of military munitions in sites claimed to be civilian in nature. So next time, give maybe 5 minutes warning and then hit the site where Hamas is storing its warmaking materials, and expect an enormous kaboom.
"Cook's comment illustrates the strong difference between anti-semitisms and most other -isms. Most others tend to see their victims of hate as being lesser, even nonhuman, worthy of derision."
Which comments of mine are you referencing? Are you suggesting (or saying) I'm anti-semitic? I can say I'm not--as I'm not--and you have no basis in any comments I've made to support your perception, if that is what you think. But then, those who are ready to throw out such accusations are often indifferent to the truth. It's just a means to demonize those with differing opinions as "bad people," beyond the pale. It is a ploy to halt honest examination and discussion of the contentious matter at hand.
Also, anti-semitic against which semites? The Palestinians are also a semitic people. But then, Jews who oppose Israel's policies and actions are scorned as "self-hating Jews," a patently dishonest rhetorical creation designed to make any criticism of Israel verboten, even by Jews. My objections are to the policies and actions of a political entity, the government of Israel, as it regards to the Palestinians. Does this mean I don't see Hamas' October 07 attack as terrorism and murder, that I support it? Of course not. It was a ghastly crime, most directly to the Israeli citizens who were killed and kidnapped, but also almost as directly a crime against the Palestinians, as it guaranteed--as Hamas knew--that Israel would reply with much greater vehemence and violence, which they have. The acts of both are crimes against humanity.
I object to the use of murder, violence and terror by any political entity as a means to achieve desired outcomes, or to punish others or to instigate a war. I also object to most of the global political actions of the US government. Am I "anti-American?" This term is another dishonest and stupid feint to demonize any American (or non-American) who decries American actions domestically and in the world. The US has certainly been among the most murderous political entities in the world in the last half-century.
BTW, it's a perversity of our media landscape today that a comedian on a purportedly comedic show presents a more informative and measured examination of this situation than most of our "professional news" organs, but this does.
"Hamas: oppressed
'Israel: oppressors'
Wrong.
Palestinians: oppressed
Israel: oppressors"
So your claim is that Hamas is NOT oppressed. But Hamas is a subset of the Palestinians who are oppressed. What is it you are trying to say here??
Cook said:
"Hamas: oppressed
"Israel: oppressors"
Wrong.
Palestinians: oppressed
Israel: oppressors
___________________________
Behold: The left's simplistic pez-pellet of historical ignorance and propaganda.
Self-hating Jews are Jews who support democrats in America. You know - the same leftists who support Hamas and their sub-human butchery.
This tragic episode has reinforced many of my beliefs. First, that propaganda really does work, there are two versions of the truth. As in the ballad, 'a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest...'
Second, the Big Lie has a little cousin, 'No Evidence.' Of course there is some evidence that the hospital is a Hamas military objective, there was a battle there! You can argue if there is strong or weak evidence, a 'preponderance of evidence', or 'evidence beyond reasonable doubt.' Evidence of statistical significance at a 95% confidence interval, but every damn thing you hear or see is evidence. The NYT and WPost are foo*ing liars.
"If you don't read the paper you are uninformed. If you read the paper you are misinformed." M Twain.
rcocean said...
"Hey, Hamas might have a command center underneath". well so what?
Yes, so what. Well the "what" is that using hospitals for military purposes is a war crime. But rcocean apparently cannot see the absurdity of the monstrous double standard drowning his thought. It's not worth trying to explain it. This war is bringing out fully the intellectual and moral collapse of the left.
As for this absurd genocide charge against Israel (coming right after a genocidal attack on Israel) rcocean has a bit of a problem with numbers. Even if the absurd Hamas Ministry of Health numbers were accurate (10,000), Gaza is two MILLION strong, many of which Israel helped stay ALIVE by moving them south temporarily. Gaza and the West Bank are population booming. But rcocean has it all figured out. Thus does "narrative" trump truth, reality, basic common sense.
Cook, I'm saying that antisemitism takes different forms than most -isms. I don't know you personally. But it's also the case that antisemitism takes shape in cultures by people that wouldn't otherwise be antisemitic. The issue with Israel is that blame is attached to Jews for behaviors and politics that hardly anyone else in the world would be blamed for.
You are the one who labeled Israel as the oppressor and Palestinians as the oppressed. That is taking a political and cultural position that you might otherwise despise but is in fact blaming Jews in particular and labeling them as the offender when they were attacked.
Call it what you will. If you are against all violence, then you would not have effectively justified violence by the oppressed, which is what most liberation movements do.
The rhetoric has a lot of history and whether you mean that history or hold those implications, you are joining hands with those who use those very same arguments to justify very antisemitic (which in common conversation means Jewish people) actions and responses.
I honestly don't think you are antisemitic, but that's precisely why it's important to highlight rhetoric and justifications that lend support to others who are explicitly antisemitic.
Speak the language of the antisemitic, and that's how people hear you, even if your heart and your goals are in a different place.
"My objections are to the policies and actions of a political entity, the government of Israel, as it regards to the Palestinians."
Understandable. But why in a region where there is massive oppression against other peoples, like the Kurds, etc. is Israel singled out for being the ones who should be protested, and the rest. If five kids are doing wrong things, four white and one black, and a person only wants to punish the black kid, they're likely to be racist, even if they are just claiming to oppose doing wrong things.
rcocean said...
This whole article is absurd. This is a hospital that is off-limits to attack under International law. I love the Israeli justification for committing a war crime by attacking and bombing hospitals. "Hey, Hamas might have a command center underneath". well so what?
You pathetic moron.
When a military force occupies a hospital and uses it to wage war, that turns the hospital into a legitimate target.
If you have a problem withe the hospital patients being put at risk, you need to direct your ire to the war criminals of Hamas who made them into targets.
but no, you're a pro-genicide jew hating piece of shit, and so it's all teh Jews fault that Hamas decided to set up operations in a hospital.
Go fuck yourself, you worthless sack of shit
Robert Cook said...
I object to the use of murder, violence and terror by any political entity as a means to achieve desired outcomes, or to punish others or to instigate a war
So you're saying you're a complete moron? That you think that Santa Claus will come and punish Hamas for raping, torturing, and murdering 1200+ Jews, so it would be wrong for the Israeli military to do it?
Reality check: The only way to prevent more attacks like the Oct 7 attack is for Israel to go into Gaza and completely destroy Hamas.
Either you support Israel's attack, or else you're a supporter of more terrorist attacks.
Because you're responsible for the obvious consequences of your positions. And the obvious consequence of stopping Isreal from wiping out Hamas is more terrorists attacks.
If you're not willing to support humans as they fight to stamp out "murder, violence and terror", then you don't actually "object" to it. you're just a lying sack of shit
Why can't people be honest when discussing this label "antisemtism"? THere seems to be ZERO desire to restrict its usage to describing obvious and clear examples of people hating Jews for being Jews.
Instead its being used as a weapon to silence and attack anyone Jewish organizations or individual Jews dislike. Hitler is an A/S, but so are Jews who don't support Israel enough. Now, we've gotten to point where simply criticizing Jews in the past, who did wrong things is Antisemitic. Or not supporting Israel or attacking some enemy of Israel loud enough.
Because y'know, anytime anyone dislikes a Jew or injures a Jew, its not because they had a valid reason, its because of irrational "Jew Hatred". Alone among peoples of the past, they are completely innocent, and their opponents completely in the wrong. "There are two sides to every story"? Well, not when it comes to Israel and the Jews.
Frankly, I find astounding that everyone accepts this as normal. They didn't in the past.
But for dumbo 'murcians, the world always started yesterday. Like, who cares what 2000 years of Catholic/Christian theology has considered right, I'm Joe Blow 'murican and I just picked up the bible and it says right there "Jews are the Chosen People, which means Bebe Netenyahu, is just like Jesus" and by gum thats good enough for me. Don't give me any of that old fashinoned nonsense by theologians and Christian leaders who studied Hebrew, Greek, Christian texts and analyzed and discussed them for 1900 years. That was then, this is now.
If you’re gonna kill a dog just because it’s a stray, it’s a problem buddy. A big one. That’s serial killer shit. Equating dogs with people is also totally fucked up.
I assume that anyone that sides with an organization dedicated to the destruction of the Jewish state is an antisemite, until hey prove otherwise. So far rocean hasn’t given me any reason to reconsider his status. From what appears to be a deliberate misreading of international law to his willingness to push the Hamas narrative as factual while completely discounting any information from Israeli sources, I’d say he has much to atone for. I wish there were a day for that.
The comments on this thread are a great example of horseshoe theory. Wow.
THere seems to be ZERO desire to restrict its usage to describing obvious and clear examples of people hating Jews for being Jews.
You mean like Palestinians? Who also hate Americans because to them belief system America is the “Great Satan”? Remember them dancing in Gaza’s streets after the Twin Towers fell 22 years ago? I do.
But for dumbo 'murcians, the world always started yesterday.
Not for me. In 1948 the Arab League lost what they billed as a war of extermination against the Jews. They got their butts kicked then, and again in 1966 and again in 1973. Palestinians being amazingly stupid, I don’t know how to convince them to learn how to live in peace with Israel other than to keep kicking their butts. Do you?
I don’t doubt Hamas has been using Gaza hospitals as cover, but a well-armed American gun nut has more firearms and ammunition than has been turned up so far at these Gaza hospitals. I don’t think capturing the so-called command and control centers under these hospitals will count for much in the war against Hamas, unfortunately.
Paddy O, thank you very much for your thoughtful contributions to this conversation. It makes a welcome change from much of the shouting, including my own.
Robert Cook's heart is in the right place, his mind just can't catch up.
Rcocean, moron or antisemite? He's both!
Duke Dan said...
"What assholes at the NYT. You want an immediate video tour? How about you wait for them to deal with all the long traps first."
I think I got a better idea.
Hear me out.
You got a squad of IDF at a tunnel entrance. A reporter shows up asking, "Where's the action boys?"
The IDF squad leader says, Right down that tunnel, sir."
And depending on if you hear BOOM of a booby trap or the SNAP of a rifle you know if the tunnel needs to be cleared.
Not too shabby, huh.
"You are the one who labeled Israel as the oppressor and Palestinians as the oppressed. That is taking a political and cultural position that you might otherwise despise but is in fact blaming Jews in particular and labeling them as the offender when they were attacked."
Why do you conflate the actions of the Israel state with the Jews in Israel as a whole? This is simply intellectually dishonest. Are you being sincerely obtuse, or willfully so? My comment--and reasoned criticism of Israel in general from other sources--is not about "the Jews," as a people, it's about the policies and actions of the individual actors who are steering Israel's ship of state. Sure, many Israelis fully endorse Israel's apartheid state, but many do not, just as many Americans fully supported our long-time regime of slavery, and our wars against Viet Nam, Afghanistan, and Iraq, (to name the most prominent recent criminal wars of the US), but many others opposed them. You appear unable (or unwilling) to understand a perfectly clear and uncomplicated point. You appear, further, to have bought into the spurious idea that any criticism of Israel as a state and political actor in the world is, de facto, motivated by and is a demonstration of prejudicial hatred of all the Jewish people who live in Israel, (or all Jews in toto). This view indicates either astonishing ignorance or calculated malice.
Robert Cook said...
Palestinians: oppressed
Israel: oppressors
More Cook:
Germans: oppressed
Poles: Oppressors
Those of us who've managed to actually achieve something approaching an education have heard of the "Danzig corridor", and East Prussia.
Are aware that Hitler used them as a casus belli vs Poland when starting WWII.
We also know that Danzig is now Gdansk, and there's no more East Prussia, and all the "Germans" in both areas were forcefully relocated to what was left of Germany.
Now, if like Cookie you're a complete and utter moron, and define "oppressed" as "loser" and "oppressor" as "winner", then clearly Nazi Germany and the German people were horribly oppressed after WWI and WWII, and clearly the Germans have every "right" to attack France to attempt to get the Alsace Lorraine back, and Poland to get East Prussia back.
If you're NOT a complete moron, then you note that the Palestinians launched a genocidal war for land in 1948, just like the Germans did in 1939. And that, just as the Germans correctly lost a bunch of land for doing so, and had their people rightly expelled from those lands, something similar, but far less harsh, correctly happened to the Palestinians after their genocidal war failed.
And if you are a moral human being, not a worthless scum bag, then what you say about the situation is "the Palestinians are engaging in evil, and until they stop, accept that they lost, accept that Israel won, and accept that that means the Israelis should get what they want MUCH more than the Palestinians should, the Israelis should keep on beating the Palestinians, because the Palestinian genocidal terrorist supporting monsters deserve it."
Robert Cook said...
Why do you conflate the actions of the Israel state with the Jews in Israel as a whole?
Oh, maybe because it's a democratic State where the vast majority of the voters are Jews?
This is simply intellectually dishonest
That would be a good description of your babbling bullshit, yes
Israel's apartheid state
I'm curious, are you lying here, or do you claim you're really just an ignorant buffoon?
Or are you claiming that the West Bank and Gaza are and should be considered part of Israel?
Which, of course, would mean you think the Israelis have the legitimate right to expel ALL the Palestinians from "their" (which is to say "Israel's") Gaza and West Bank?
Because otherwise what we have here is Israel attempting as far as it safely can to implement teh Two State solution, and give the Palestinians their own countries. Isn't it interesting how Cookie, and the Palestinians, scream and cry about Israel doing that?
it's almost like their sole real goal is the murder of all the Jews in Israel, and a single "Palestinian" State.
rcocean said...
Why can't people be honest when discussing this label "antisemtism"? THere seems to be ZERO desire to restrict its usage to describing obvious and clear examples of people hating Jews for being Jews.
Instead it's being used as a weapon to silence and attack anyone Jewish organizations or individual Jews dislike. Hitler is an A/S, but so are Jews who don't support Israel enough. Now, we've gotten to point where simply criticizing Jews in the past, who did wrong things is Antisemitic. Or not supporting Israel or attacking some enemy of Israel loud enough.
No, it's when you impose on Israel restrictions and demands that have never been imposed on any other country, that we correctly distill the reason why you're doing that is Jew hatred.
Like when the Palestinians violate the laws of war and set up military forces inside a hospital, and you attack Israel for correctly and legally responding to the Hamas war crime, rather than attacking Hams for their war crime.
Left Bank of the Charles said...
I don’t doubt Hamas has been using Gaza hospitals as cover, but a well-armed American gun nut has more firearms and ammunition than has been turned up so far at these Gaza hospitals.
Wow, AFTER the battle is over, and the bad guys who weren't killed have escaped, Leftie says "gee, there's not a lot of weapons left behind. I guess that means there were never any there!"
That'a really impressive level of stupidity, even for you
"Reality check: The only way to prevent more attacks like the Oct 7 attack is for Israel to go into Gaza and completely destroy Hamas."
Reality check: They're killing people indiscriminately, including beaucoup children, (just as we did in Iraq and Afghanistan and Vietnam...and Hiroshima and Nagasaki, most infamously). This is the ugly truth of war: it is mass murder.
As I read the "thoughts" (sic) posted by "Greg the Class Traitor" on this series of comments, I realize his blogging name is literal: he rebelled in class and refused to learn anything. Or maybe that was his pose to cover that he was unable to learn anything. He pairs astonishing ignorance with calculated malice.
Reality check: Robert Crook doesn't know the meaning of the word "indiscriminately". Early on Israel was accused of having dropped 6,000 bombs (I think it was) and killed 3,000 people. It doesn't seem to occur to these morons that it takes a great deal of extremely precise and discriminating targeting to drop 500-pound and larger bombs on a densely populated area and only kill half as many people as the number of bombs dropped. Even a slight miscalculation would kill far more, and someone trying to kill as many as possible could easily have killed vastly more with that amount of ordnance. And of course most of those 3,000 were in fact armed Hamas members and legitimate targets, but the Gaza "authorities" pretend that everyone killed is a civilian, and western morons lap up their lies like a cat lapping up milk.
And rcocean thinks Israel has been "bombing" hospitals, when they've been approaching them on the ground, where they are greeted with gunfire coming from inside (a war crime). Hospitals that are all lit up, even while Hamas spokesmen claim that patients are dying for lack of electricity. Some people are just astonishingly gullible. How do you think they're getting their lies out to the world without electricity?
Robert Cook said...
"Reality check: The only way to prevent more attacks like the Oct 7 attack is for Israel to go into Gaza and completely destroy Hamas."
Reality check: They're killing people indiscriminately
Reality check: Robert Cook is full of shit. If they were "killing people indiscriminately", there'd be hundreds of thousands of dead Palestinians.
Dr. Weevil covered teh rest in great detail , so I won't bother
Robert Cook said...
He pairs astonishing ignorance with calculated malice.
Says the creature who delusional accusing Israel of being an "apartheid state".
Says the historically ignorant buffoon who can't reply to my comments about Danzig and East Prussia, and the rightful consequences of losing a gencidal war for territory, be it Germany with WWII, or The Palestinians with every war they've launched against Israel, starting in 1948.
Cookie was apparently one of the good little suckers who brown nosed "teacher", and got good grades while never actually learning anything.
So yes, Cookie, I did actually challenge and disagree with my "teachers" and "professors" in HS and College. Also got good grades, and actually learned things. Because unlike you I actually know how to think, and chose to do so
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