"... which, as a sovereign tribal nation, is not subject to the decision of America’s highest court.... [S]ame-sex couples are at the center of a contentious debate on the Navajo Nation, where the tribal council is weighing legislation to repeal a ban enacted in 2005. The change would grant them equal rights in situations involving property and hospital visitation. Indigenous scholars say it also would honor Navajo tradition, which recognized multiple genders and sexualities that were suppressed and stigmatized after Europeans arrived.... In recent decades, many Native Americans have adopted 'two-spirit' as an umbrella term for 'an individual that has both male and female spirits within them,' signaling a rejection of more rigid, western labels, said professor Gregory D. Smithers.... Two-spirit leaders and activists have made gains, Smithers said...."
From "Same-sex marriage remains banned — for now — in the Navajo Nation" (WaPo).
I was surprised to see that "two-spirit" is not a traditional term. Here's the Wikipedia article on the subject. A short excerpt from what is a long article:
Two-spirit (also known as two spirit or occasionally twospirited) is a modern, pan-Indian umbrella term used by some Indigenous North Americans to describe Native people in their communities who fulfill a traditional third-gender (or other gender-variant) ceremonial and social role in their cultures.
Coined in 1990 as a primarily ceremonial term, requiring community recognition, in recent years more individuals have taken to self-identifying as two-spirit. Two-spirit, as a term and concept, is neither used nor accepted universally in Native American cultures. Indigenous cultures that have traditional roles for gender-nonconforming people have names in their own, Indigenous languages....
The initial intent in coining the term was to differentiate Indigenous concepts of gender and sexuality from those of non-Native lesbians and gays, and to replace the offensive, anthropological terms that were still in wide use. While two-spirit has been controversial since its adoption, the term has experienced more academic and social acceptance than the term "berdache," which it replaced....
A footnote says that "berdache" means "passive partner in sodomy, boy prostitute."
The Wikipedia has a long list of traditional Indigenous terms. I'll quote the one that's relevant to the dispute reported in the WaPo article:
60 comments:
It's like Latinx, eh? The progs made up a word and tried to force it on a culture.
One of the streamers -- Netflix, maybe -- has a documentary show about the Navajo Police Academy. We watched episode one and will continue. It's good.
Once again academics with too much time on their hands make sh*t up and impose "cultural imperialism" on another non-academic minority group. This follows the "Latinx" label movement. That word is not an internal Spanish-language creation, it's not often used by those of Spanish origin, and is offensive to many.
Yet, the know-it-all bullies "meant well" so Latinx and now Two Spirit will be used by them and their imperialist allies. We should endeavor to hoist them on their own petards.
Latinx:
https://www.bu.edu/articles/2022/why-is-latinx-still-used-if-hispanics-hate-the-term/
https://www.pewresearch.org/hispanic/2020/08/11/about-one-in-four-u-s-hispanics-have-heard-of-latinx-but-just-3-use-it/
https://theconversation.com/stop-using-latinx-if-you-really-want-to-be-inclusive-189358
Ann is shocked, shocked to find that this is a manufactured item of propaganda foisted on credulous liberals (the kind that still think the NYT is a credible source of news) by transgenderists.
I can well understand the Navajo aversion to brave-on-brave boning. It’s bad medicine in the climatic da-hna-wa for one akicita to shoot his arrow into another guy’s quiver.
- Krumhorn
"I was surprised to see that "two-spirit" is not a traditional term."
If you think rainbow jihad has been grasping at anthropological and religious straws to justify their lifestyle, wait till you see what they've done to Jewish Halakha interpretation on the subject of the androgynous and intersex.
Judaism is up to 6 genders now! (My favorite is the Saris Adam)
The name change sounds like whitewashing a cultural practice of having a class of young boys whom older men could permissibly screw, like we saw in Afghanistan (or ancient Greece).
Why are “people” always trying to fix things that aren’t broken?
"The increasing visibility of the two-spirit concept in mainstream culture has been seen as both empowering and as having some undesirable consequences, such as the spread of misinformation about the cultures of Indigenous peoples, pan-Indianism replacing culturally-specific teachings and traditions, and cultural appropriation of Indigenous identities and ceremonial ways by non-Natives....
.... The idea of gender and sexuality variance being universally accepted among Native American/First Nations peoples has become romanticized. Accordingly, the change from berdache to two-spirit is most accurately understood as a non-Native idealization of the social acceptance of gender variance, idealizing a romanticized acceptance of gender variance...."
Cultural appropriation or colonizing? Maybe both.
If you want to change a law, it becomes easier if you can get people to believe that the change is actually something that is found in your group's traditions.
This is good to know. Everybody can now declare themselves to be “two-spirited” —like O blood type, the “universal donor”— and we can then just STFU about the whole precious business.
OTOH apparently the term “two-spirited” may not be “authentic” but instead another imposition by those damned white colonialists, so before settling on the proper nomenclature it will be important to consult the true representatives of the indigenous culture —worthies and shamans such as Ward Churchill and Senator Warren.
I struggle with these types of studies and am unsure if it's me or the framework of the studies themselves.
If you read sociological studies like what is quoted here, you get the impression that >2 genders have been recognized throughout history and many cultures with equal respect and recognition for any recognized beyond "male" and "female."
But when I dig a smidge deeper in many of these studies, I see that those cultures often did have vernacular for someone who went beyond respective prototypical male/female roles, but those were often simply naming conventions for those individuals. It was not full recognition and respect that there were more than 2 genders, it was more recognition that some people didn't operate under traditional norms. Then there are quasi-religious ceremonies where a deity was viewed as neither male nor female, but either asexual or both sexes. Which, again, doesn't mean recognition that human beings are more than 2 genders.
However, the sociologic studies seem to approach such situations as automatic full recognition by those societies that more than 2 genders exist. Seems like the pre-existing framework was used to interpret a given societal study.
Am I crazy here? Ignorant? Or is this just another quasi-science where academic researchers decide the outcome and then set about doing research to prove it?
The difference between academic scholarship and the systematic creation and dissemination of falsehood is getting more difficult to see.
I have the feeling that there's a traditional queer Indian joke from the past. Maybe I'll remember it.
"Why are “people” always trying to fix things that aren’t broken?"
Because how else would they be able to criticize God for making them the sad, dysfunctional people that they are? These people are very very upset with the world, and by God, he's gonna know about it! They're gonna turn on the water-works in that grocery aisle, scream bloody murder, and tear boxes off shelves until daddy makes it right again and plops a buck fiddy on the barrel head at the check out for that capri sun.
Forgiveness can then be discussed, if they feel like it!
Spent a summer in the 1980s on the Sioux reservation in North Dakota. They had a word that translated into Girl-Boy. But it only applied to dudes who were bottoms or vers.(anal receptive). There was no loss of masculine respect for tops.
When did the great white leftist word warriors get around to capitalizing "indigenous"?
TreeJoe, I think you're right. I was a "Native American Studies" major years ago and wrote a long paper on what were then called "berdaches". As I remember it was that these folks (always men, at least for the ones I looked at) didn't act like they were supposed to, and so they had to be classified as something else. For example, these folks in Lakota culture essentially lived as women, doing women's jobs and such. That's not "celebrating" anyone's identity; it's just putting them in a place where they disrupt society the least. There was relatively little discussion of it in research at the time, which is why I picked it as a subject; I could actually provide a summary of the material out there in one 25 page paper. It seems that has changed a lot, and it is now a very popular area of "scholarship". Given that there weren't too many historical sources on the subject 30 years ago, I do wonder what that scholarship is based on. Re-reading older accounts and "interpreting" them "through a different lens"? I suspect so.
Navajos have it right (so do Moslems).
Normal male and female adult humans have an innate sexual attraction for the other that is essential for the continuation of the human race.
There are multiple deviations from this normal state, all of which to one degree or other interfere with this essential function. Homosexual behavior may satisfy the individuals involved as much as normal behavior, but does nothing for the human race as a whole. Asexual behavior does nothing for anybody. Two spirit, trans-sexual, and bisexual are likewise useless for the primary function of sexuality.
Abnormal sexual behavior should be discouraged, but its practitioners should be tolerated. They should certainly not be persecuted in any way, unless they attempt to convince minors to join their group when they otherwise would have little or no inclination to do so.
A minor who is subjected to an attempt to change his or her orientation from normal to abnormal should be considered an assault victim at the least; battery charges are in order if any medical or surgical interventions are attempted.
Academics white wash the slavery, savagery and misogyny of many native American tribes. It fits their narrative of the noble Indian.
Now they twist cultural practices to fit the current LGBTQ+ passions by the invention of the two-spirit claim.
Why it's almost like the foundations of their claims are less than weak and shifting sands.
TreeJoe @ 8:25: Excellent comment. IMHO your questions have uncovered the deepest layer of Reality, viz., this particular intellectual mire is filled with question-beggars. Who approach everything with their narrative already fully written.
A masculine woman and a feminine man are not separate genders, they're just ways of describing someone's behavior. The very fact that such terms exist pre-suppose that there is such a thing as masculine and feminine norms. Also, as TreeJoe said, just because there are such terms does not mean the behavior is approved of. There are plenty of derogatory terms for effeminate men in the English language.
You can skip ahead to the 5:17 mark to hear an actual Navaho elder discuss this two-spirt stuff (hint he says you can't have two spirits, your either male or female and that is a fundamental law of the universe, your feelings can't change that)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-LJRbaWhNfo
Marriage of transgender couplets was legalized under the principle of political congruence ("=") of the Pro-Choice ethical religion and Democratic passage of the "respect for marriage act". The bigots still stand with a doctrine of diversity, inequity, and exclusion. #Judgment #TooManyLabels #HateLovesAbortion
Personality traits associated with males or females aren't genders.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMNUpxwaGjM
Jump to 7:35 where an actual Navaho elder talks about losing their young people "because they are listening to people who are not knowledgeable about our traditional ways and traditional teachings."
“Indigenous scholars say it also would honor Navajo tradition, which recognized multiple genders and sexualities that were suppressed and stigmatized after Europeans arrived....”
Indigenous scholars, huh?
“Indigenous scholars say it also would honor Navajo tradition, which recognized multiple genders and sexualities that were suppressed and stigmatized after Europeans arrived....”
Indigenous scholars, huh?
Serious Question: who IS the democrat party now?
Blue Collar workers?
Farmers?
Moslems?
Navajos?
Black men?
Is the democrat party JUST for Affluent White Female Urban Liberals (awful) ??
Or do they STILL allow black female goverment employees in?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZgkVpKuAtqE
"You cannot call evil things good."
Or is this just another quasi-science where academic researchers decide the outcome and then set about doing research to prove it?
Signs point to yes.
"it also would honor Navajo tradition, which recognized multiple genders and sexualities that were suppressed and stigmatized after Europeans arrived..."
It's Whitie's fault! That didn't take long : )
Ha!
Little Bathhouse on the Prairie...
So it's basically an evolution of language story where, unlike Latinos who rejected he hideous "Latinx" addition to their language, the Navajos did adopt "two-spirit" although many other Native American tribes have chosen not to.
When will these language colonizers of European descent stop their assault on our indigenous peoples?
The Unmaking of the American Tomboy. It used be an accepted phase of girlhood to "act like a boy" before puberty starts enforcing change from within.
"Serious Question: who IS the democrat party now?"
Various flavors of sexual deviants and suburban wine aunts. It sounds like a joke, but I am deadly serious. It's all gays and their female gay apologists now. It's the We Really Hate Dad/Husband coalition.
For many years, I had the privilege (and it truly is a privilege) to work with the Diné (the true name of the Navajo people) along with many other tribes in the Southwest. They are a uniformly conservative people. While a generalization, they are truly proud Americans who love the USA despite being mistreated. One of the things which shock many progressives is that there are tribes which have a strict ban on abortions and even at least one which does not recognize divorce.
Tribal law is the equivalent of state and local law. For a good summary see Elizabeth A. Reese, The Other American Law, 73 Stanford Law Review 555-636 (2021). ("...there are 574 federally recognized tribal governments within the United States, whose laws are largely ignored. This Article brings to the fore the exclusion of tribal governments and their laws from our mainstream conception of “American law” and identifies this exclusion as both an inconsistent omission and a missed opportunity.")
@rhhardin
...he was a Brave sucker.
“I was surprised to see that "two-spirit" is not a traditional term.”
It’s just another example of the lies spread in an attempt to normalize aberration.
"Little Bathhouse on the Prairie"
Thanks @Joe Smith. I almost spewed coffee all over my desktop and my executive assistant is asking if I’m ok. You almost owed me a new computer you goofy bastard.
"One of the things which shock many progressives is that there are tribes which have a strict ban on abortions"
Of course they do, abortions are just another way to reduce their numbers.
Cancel the RFMA. Civil unions for couples, couplets, and all consenting adults. #NoJudgment #NoLabels
"You almost owed me a new computer you goofy bastard."
: )
Kate said...
“It's like Latinx, eh? The progs made up a word and tried to force it on a culture.”
“Latinx” is the modern day equivalent of “Stage Irish”.
If the Navajo Nation ever legalizes gay marriage, it may be to atone for the sin of being in the coal mining business.
abortions are just another way to reduce their numbers
Human rites performed for social, clinical, criminal, Democratic, and climate progress.
Ignorance and superstition don't ennoble Caucasians. I question why they result in such positive qualities among other races....It's sad that so many people of color swallowed whole such pernicious and evil white superstitions as Marxism and collective farms. They seem to be more resistant when it comes to feminism and banning plastic bottles though. As the citizens of Mexico used to say, you are what eats you.
In this, as in many other things, my go-to question, "Did this exist when I was growing up?" served me well.
I grew up in the Four Corners. No one ever said "two spirit." I never heard it until I move away.
No one will ever tell you this if you didn't grow up there, but a lot of the people who had sex-change surgery in Trinidad (the town in CO where you did these things back then) were natives who had been sexually abused.
"Indigenous scholars say it also would honor Navajo tradition, which recognized multiple genders and sexualities that were suppressed and stigmatized after Europeans arrived." If you believe this, you probably also believe that pre-columbian America was a peaceful paradise where all the natives lived in peace and harmony with each other and nature. Later in the article where it talks about the actual beliefs of the Navajo, it turns out they just had terms for tomboys and feminine acting men. Although it is true they recognized multiple genders, unfortunately for the queer theorists, like all of mankind up until yesterday, the number was two.
I was surprised to see that "two-spirit" is not a traditional term.
LOL!
"I was surprised to see that "two-spirit" is not a traditional term. "
Welcome to the NewAge. Don't you remember Dave Chappelle observing "trans people make up words to win arguments"? Don't you guys even notice as new cult phrases have arrived on the scene?
"Woke" popped up on the main stream's radar about 25 years after it actually arrived, but, being a black thing, everybody of course noticed that. But the ubiquitous use of "Love of my life" and "Soulmate" never made you ask what's going on with our limited vocabulary? The way "folk" medicine became "alternative" medicine, which became "integrative" medicine, which is becoming "complementary" medicine (with a heathy booster shot of "Health & Wellness") hasn't made your head spin yet?
This is why I stay so depressed. I live in a world where the circus came to town, and no one's noticed they've taken over every damn thing.
As the father of a gay man, I am extremely thankful that he was born and has been raised in what is quite possibly the most tolerant and accepting culture with respect to gays that has ever existed in the history of mankind.
Has there been any inquiry into the cultural norms of the Sioux, the Apache, the Huron with regard to this issue? I am honestly afraid to ask.
The idea that traditional, warlike and/or religiously oriented cultures were somehow more tolerant of gays than our current culture is frankly absurd.
Who needs bathhouses?
Little Sweat Lodge on the Prairie works just fine.
boatbuilder said...
"The idea that traditional, warlike and/or religiously oriented cultures were somehow more tolerant of gays than our current culture is frankly absurd."
Not really. Mexicans are more aggressively "macho" than we are, but they also seem to get higher marks, than we do, from Mexican gays I've spoken with.
"Two-Spirit" my Aunt Fanny.
The two-spirit idea is mostly modern and made up by a gay Native who used to roam the reservations in the 70s and 80s trying to talk people into this idea. He stretched every point and when that wasn't enough he made stuff up. If you look at the "indigenous scholars" of this you can see that their sources are almost entirely each other. It's a circle jerk. They have done a great job of embedding their ideas in the popular imagination - but it ain't true.
Most patriarchal societies allow men of power to screw whoever they want: multiple women, children, other men. For those individuals it is power display. Homosexuality also showed up in isolated traders and trappers, who would bring someone along who was dependent on them that they could have sex with. Sometimes male.
People keep forgetting: Sociology isn't science. It's conclusions in search of results.
RideSpaceMountain said...
"Little Bathhouse on the Prairie"
"Thanks @Joe Smith. I almost spewed coffee all over my desktop and my executive assistant is asking if I’m ok. You almost owed me a new computer you goofy bastard."
It was good.
Professor Smithers, no less.
"I was surprised to see that 'two-spirit' is not a traditional term."
It's a term that screamed "activist neologism" the first time I heard it. Since then, I can't say I've heard anyone use it except for people in activist circles. In a way, it's a modern equivalent to historic "noble savage" tropes.
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