Says a man commenting on the NYT article that's only about whether women do or don't take their husband's last name.
I'm chortling at the NYT's embarrassing blindspot.
The Times quotes some sociologist who says, "[W]e adjust to the gender norms of our time, which, ‘Barbie’ notwithstanding, is not a very pro-feminist time period." That applies to the NYT too.
Do better.
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75 comments:
They call them norms for a reason.
I commented on the 'sex with 12 year old' post, asking if the philosopher king knew of Chesterton's Fence.
Same applies here.
OK, you lost me. What's the embarrassing blindspot?
Change or don't change, or make a new last name out of a combination of your family names. Just don't hyphenate. Hyphenated last names are a huge red flag.
P.G.Wodehouse thrived on hyphenated names as a source of quiet humor. It still works.
--- NYT's embarrassing blindspot.
Reality? Positivity? Happiness??
Clue us in. I am missing the blind spot. It seems the usual dreck to me.
Well, to be fair, the headline does say "a tradition that's going strong." Men taking their wives' last names isn't a tradition here. Or am I misunderstanding the chortling?
I didn't take my husband's name when we got married thirty years ago. Furthermore, at his suggestion, we gave the kids the last name that aligned with their sex - boys have his last name, girl has mine. It's caused no end of fun at school, with doctors and dentists, doing insurance things... Some friends we've known for a good twelve years just found out this summer that we weren't a yours/mine/ours family, as they are.
We've asked the kids what they thought of it, especially the girl since our cultural tradition would be for her to have her dad's last name. All three thought it ranged from "whatever, it's my name" to "it was fun for teachers not to know I was related to him/her."
At our church, where I was involved in everything except consecrating the host, people frequently called my husband by my last name until they'd known him for a while - they just assumed the cultural tradition that I would have taken his name, and they knew my name.
We knew one couple who tried to combine their last names into a new name when they got married. It pleased no one in either family, and they were young; they abandoned the effort and went with tradition, after a couple of years.
It's a pain to change your name. I had done so (actually I hyphenated) for my first marriage and had to do it again after my divorce, so I was damned if I'd do it a third time.
i'd like to see divorce stats for name changers vs name keepers
Keeping feminists happy about keeping your name or your husband taking yours is so puritanical. The new progressive is negotiating which kids get her name and which kids get his...
It starts getting complicated when one follows the Spanish tradition of taking the woman's family name, I guess, although I've never thought through the cultural practicalities. At least the Spanish are forthright enough to admit we live in a matriarchy.
Furthermore, at his suggestion, we gave the kids the last name that aligned with their sex - boys have his last name, girl has mine.
This statement MAKES NO SENSE how on earth could the child tell You what sex they were when You were filling out the forms?
Obviously, the child KNEW at the point of conception, what sex they were.. BUT until they were old enough to communicate (2 years?) There is NO WAY that You could have possibly known their sex.
There is ONLY One Word to describe You: TRANSPHOBE!!!
In my first year of law school a female classmate by the name of Sloan married a man who had some jaw breaking German last name such as Klappferknopf or some such. When they married he became Mr. Sloan. This was so unusual in 1973 that the local paper ran a feature article on the situation. The reporter asked the groom if he now had to stop and think before answering when someone asked him his name. He replied that, yes, but he always had to stop and think when it was Klappferknopf.
That doesn't seem like it would be much of an article. Where would you find a broad assortment men who changed or considered changing their last names upon marriage in order to survey or interview them? It would just be a paragraph pointing out that there isn't such a thing. I guess you could go and interview a bunch of sociology or gender studies professors about why there isn't such a thing, but that group wouldn't resonate with most readers.
That doesn't seem like it would be much of an article. Where would you find a broad assortment men who changed or considered changing their last names upon marriage in order to survey or interview them? It would just be a paragraph pointing out that there isn't such a thing. I guess you could go and interview a bunch of sociology or gender studies professors about why there isn't such a thing, but that group wouldn't resonate with most readers.
Read article in NYT app and did not see link to comments. Si hard to understand the post.
My liberal nephew with the doctorate changed his name. His Hispanic wife forced him to hyphenate his last name and her name is last. He doen't look Hispanic.
Of course all this becomes nicely irrelevant if the women just change their sex to male and start identifying as The Patriarchy.
"[W]e adjust to the gender norms of our time, which, ‘Barbie’ notwithstanding, is not a very pro-feminist time period." -- Some Sociologist
Ipsos 2019 poll:
"Less than a third of American women identify as feminists"
For everyday women, it is indeed not a very feminist time. For the powerful forces in our culture, including news and entertainment media, and academia, making feminism the cultural norm is a crusade. In these cultural corridors of power, it is "a very pro-feminist time period."
i'd like to see divorce stats for name changers vs name keepers
Well, I'm 1 for 2 having kept my name (in some form) both times... but the marriage that ended in divorce (in which I hyphenated my last name with my husband's; he did not follow suit) lasted less than 2 years, whereas the one in which I just kept my name, straight up, has lasted 30 and counting. Maybe it matters, too, how doctrinaire the spouses are about it? Neither my husband nor I give a hoot when someone calls us by the other one's last name.
The question is, what was my husband doing when he suggested that the kids have different last names? (And gilbar, I beg of you, don't out him!) I know the answer because he said it at the time: "I don't want to be the one stuck with all the kids while you get to be off living your own life." Yes, it was tongue-in-cheek, but I think it was also a bit aimed at how I hadn't changed my name, and also at the fact that he wasn't sold on the idea of having kids in the first place but I had made it a condition of marriage. Nevertheless.
Our first was a boy (as far as we could tell... and is now a man, as far as we can tell), so this different-name idea was no different from tradition. It was only when our daughter (as far as we could tell) was born, five years later and after nine years of marriage, that I learned that my husband was going to stick to his guns.
He is an absolutely stellar father, despite his doubts before there were actual children on the scene. But he is a little quirky.
"I married a progressive woman. She did not make me change my name when we got married."
How does he know that he is marrying? What proof does he offer?
"OK, you lost me. What's the embarrassing blindspot?"
That there's another way for the married couple to have the same last name: The husband can take the wife's last name.
All the highest-rated comments point to this lapse.
Thanks for enacting the "silence by males" the commenter is talking about. It's real! You don't even see the issue.
I knew a guy who hyphenated his wife's surname to his when they got married. Pretty sure it was a bid to get the FIL's business when he retired/died.
"Among men in opposite-sex marriages, 5 percent took their wife’s name."
6th paragraph.
My cousin's husband took her name because he had a terrible relationship with his family and was glad to be rid of it. I know of no other examples. When my wife and I were engaged, we briefly discussed choosing a new last name for all of us to share. I wanted "Gatsby." I thought, and still think, that Timothy Gatsby rolls nicely off the tongue. But she shot that down. In the end, we kept our names.
"In my first year of law school a female classmate by the name of Sloan married a man who had some jaw breaking German last name such as Klappferknopf or some such. When they married he became Mr. Sloan. ..."
I think if you're young and haven't yet used your last name to build up a professional reputation, you ought to pick the better looking/sounding of the 2 last names. If both names lack aesthetics, come up with a new name, possibly some combination of the 2 names.
If you are older and your last name has become a professional brand of some kind, you might want to keep that last name.
The main reason to want one last name is if you're going to have children and want one family name. People are going to call you by your child's last name, so if you keep a different name, you'll need to accept that various people — teachers, doctors — will call you by the "wrong" name.
It is not unusual for a credentialed woman with a good publication record in refereed journals to keep her maiden name — it makes it easier for other people in the field to be aware of the totality of her work. Other women keeping their maiden name are merely pretending to be like their credentialed sisters.
My wife honored me in taking my name, but her only publication before we were married was as fifth or sixth author in an article in Physical Review C.
A small note for the young guys. Don’t worry too much of she wants to keep her maiden name, but do watch out if she introduces you as her first husband.
Progressive conservative, liberal, or libertarian?
Yeh - progressional and progressive women. Except that the really progressive women, through their toxic feminists, are marrying less and less.
Daughter got married a couple years ago. She has always had 4 names, and substituted her groom’s last name for her mother’s much longer one, for her third name, keeping my last name as hers. Her justification was professional - her PhD dissertation and her published papers are with my last name. Her bridal party all had doctorates of one type or another, and the married ones had done the same thing. Her Bestie (Matron of Honor because she got married 2 months earlier, with their roles reversed) has a DDS, and had already embarked on a dental career by the time she got married. Etc. Think of Ann, having gone through Cohen and now a Meade, teaching law. That sort of thing.
That said, while life long marriage is the avowed goal of most still, it is slowly becoming the exception, and not the norm. Just doesn’t make as much sense, with our much longer lifespans. And it’s just confusing if you remarry. One of the security guards here just got engaged. It will be his 3rd marriage, and her 2nd. Both have kids. That’s seems to be the norm in much of this country. The only one in my partner’s family on their 1st marriage is her son.
Finally, the reason my daughter didn’t want to hyphenate was that the person alphabetically throughout school (3-12) in front of her had a 20 character hyphenated last name. Everything for that girl was more complicated as a result. Her name tag always took an extra line, as did her listing for graduating from HS.
It’s TRUE Feminism when a couple decides to take the bride’s father’s name.
Go fight Teh Patriarchy, y’all.
When I married my ex-wife (very "liberal," very feminist) I told her I didn't care if she changed her name or not. She was astounded I would even bring it up. To her there was no question about what she would do. Her: "Are you crazy? You don't understand, because you're a 'B.' You don't know what it's like to be a 'Z' because you've never had to wait for everything in life that is done alphabetically. This is my chance to move to the front of the line!"
It’s TRUE Feminism when the couple decides to take the bride’s father’s name.
Fight Teh Patriarchy, y’all.
"I am the only man in the country not allowed to give his name to his children. I am a bloody amoeba!"
-Prince Philip reportedly said when he found out his children would not have the surname Mountbatten.
The article is: "A Tradition Going Strong: Brides Who Take Their Husbands’ Names/The women least likely to do so tend to be liberal or highly educated or Hispanic, new data shows."
Ha ha, on the other hand, I thought this was the blind spot, Ms. Althouse: '...liberal orhighly educated or Hispanic.'
Oh well, I guess we've all got them.
The statement about "males and women" was not made by a "man", it was made by a "male". 's choice of words, not mine.
I agree that women who've been in business or one work place for a while should keep their "stage name". Its annoying to work with "Lisa smith" and then have her change everything to "Lisa Gonzales". And even more annoying when she gets divorced and goes back to "Lisa SMith".
As stated upthread, Hispanic tradition is to keep your name, and your children are Jose (mothers last name) (fathers last name). In spain this results in names that 5 words. In the USA, most Hispanics conform to US norms and just keep the last names of their mother and father.
Among anglo-Americans having a hyphenated last name is stupid. Just go one way or the other. Otherwise you get absurdities like: Mrs Horowitz-Tewksbury. And what happens when two hypenates marry each other: Miss Horowitz-tewksbury -Cohen-Habpsburg
I don't know why Prof. Althouse thinks anyone has a blind spot. Every moment of every day, I am consciously aware of the social construction and arbitrariness of every single thing I do, including the gendered nature of every social interaction and every cognitive event. But discussing those issues generally makes for boring and unproductive conversation. (Unproductive because you can neither eliminate your socially situated position nor change the gendered nature of humanity.)
Ann Althouse said...
"In my first year of law school a female classmate by the name of Sloan married a man who had some jaw breaking German last name such as Klappferknopf or some such. When they married he became Mr. Sloan. ..."
“I think if you're young and haven't yet used your last name to build up a professional reputation, you ought to pick the better looking/sounding of the 2 last names. If both names lack aesthetics, come up with a new name, possibly some combination of the 2 names.”
Sine they’re both lawyers and should know some Latin, I would recommend Causidicus or Advocata.
"so if you keep a different name, you'll need to accept that various people — teachers, doctors — will call you by the "wrong" name."
The same way that if you're pretending to be a different gender, you'll need to accept that various people will call you by the "wrong" one?
Enh. I kept both my maiden name and my husband's surname, but didn't hyphenate. This is partly because I have some (very small) scholarly contributions under my maiden name, and partly because "Dulak" is there for my parents, who have no grandchildren and wanted some very much.
A colleague at Cal married, and took the name [first name] [wife's surname]-[his surname] She adopted the same. Like rcocean, I can only guess what happens when one of their offspring wants to marry another child of hyphenates. This could get out of hand rapidly.
I worked with a woman who kept her husband’s last name from her first, very brief marriage into her second marriage.
Because it was a very cool last name and suited her perfectly.
Think Italian aristocracy.
When I gave notice at my job, they brought in a man immediately so I could train him. He had an hyphenated last name. EVERY person he met, when introduced, he would explain his last name was a combination of his and his wife's. It seemed the most important thing in his life.
He didn't last 30 days after I departed. Simp.
MarcusB. THEOLDMAN
My spouse's family name is a misspelt corruption of a more common German name, apparently caused during documentation of immigration from Europe in the late 1800s. It is almost unique in the United States. I asked her if she wanted to keep it, and she said no, as the misspelling had been a family joke her whole life and she was tired of it.
It was not an issue of any great importance to either of us, as we knew who each of us were.
I agree that the worst choice is going the hyphenated route.
But it's none of my bidness what name you want on your DL.
“you'll need to accept that various people — teachers, doctors — will call you by the "wrong" name.”
Mrs. Cohen, you are wanted in the Principal’s office.
A close friend, upon learning that my wife and I were having our first child, gave us the sound advice to never tell a child not to stick beans in their nose.
My son just got married and his wife kept her name.
Not a problem with me, but what happens if kids come along?
One or the other? Hyphenated?
Time will tell.
It will drive future genealogists crazy!
"In my first year of law school a female classmate by the name of Sloan married a man who had some jaw breaking German last name such as Klappferknopf or some such. When they married he became Mr. Sloan. ..."
And yet, the jaw breaking name of Schwarzenegger, imho, had a lot to do with his success.
Smart of him not to change it...
Everytime I meet either a married couple or a married woman where the woman did not take the name of the husband, I automatically think lesser of the husband. The keeping of the name is not a mark in favor of her, but a mark against him.
“Among men in opposite-sex marriages, 5 percent took their wife’s name."
6th paragraph.”
Yes, I saw that too and wondered what the blind spot was.
I worked with a woman who kept her husband’s last name from her first, very brief marriage into her second marriage.
I went to school with someone who divorced a horrible man but kept his name because of her career. She is published a lot. She’s credited an element discovery with that name…
[W]e adjust to the gender norms of our time, which, ‘Barbie’ notwithstanding, is not a very pro-feminist time period.
Then what, exactly, does a pro-feminist time period look like?
Please elaborate for the NYT readers.
"I married a progressive woman. She did not make me change my name when we got married."
Then how progressive can she really be?
Hypergamy tells women to marry men better than themselves.
Progressivism tells women to then demand equality and make him take her last name.
Reality says women are having a hard time locking down a suitable mate.
“Everytime I meet either a married couple or a married woman where the woman did not take the name of the husband, I automatically think lesser of the husband. The keeping of the name is not a mark in favor of her, but a mark against him.”
I kind of doubt Meade feels less of a man because Althouse kept her name, but I’m only guessing.
After my son got engaged, I asked his fiancé in passing if she planned to keep her maiden name. She immediately answered she would use our last name. It wasn't a question for her. She has the emotional intelligence to understand what is important and what is not important in life. They have a very happy marriage and just had their first child. Easy peasy to get my granddaughter's name straight.
Life can be less contentious if you allow it. But some people just want to be angry.
[W]e adjust to the gender norms of our time, which, ‘Barbie’ notwithstanding, is not a very pro-feminist time period.
Then what, exactly, does a pro-feminist time period look like?
I was wondering that, too. When, in the history of the world, were things better for women than they are today?
More recently two young musician friends married. She was Crumbley, he was Futch. He kept Futch, but she opted for the unfortunate and completely unmusical combination of Crumbley-Futch. In my avuncular way I suggested that they ditch both Crumbley and Futch and come up with something more pleasant and elegant. My suggestion was Burlington, but they persisted.
I always liked my last name of Marshall, until it ensured that I got called on for Marbury v. Madison in Con Law.
"Among men in opposite-sex marriages, 5 percent took their wife’s name."
Was that sentence added after you and several Times commenters read the article?
---When, in the history of the world, were things better for women than they are today?
Yes, very true. So why do they keep going up to the 6th floor?
---Yes, I saw that too and wondered what the blind spot was.
GMTA, Inga. I can't speak for Althouse, but you know darn well that NYT commenters thought they were being cooler than cool by one-upping NYT editorial progressives. The dumbest people on earth, don't you agree? Why, thank you, I knew we saw this one clearly!
Bullshit on the overgenerizatio of "hispanic women" Puerto Rican Rican women do it differently from Mexican women who do it differently from argentine women who do it differently from Brazilian women who do it differently from Spanish women and so on.
What the hell does "hispanic" even mean? It's a bullshit word.
My wife is n3lida sanchez de Henry although for some purposes she is sanchez-Rodriguez and others just plain Henry.
John Henry
One pair of my grandkids, my son's are Henry-Torres. The other, my daughter's, are Torres-Henry
We tend to use double barreled surnames here.
John Henry
. He doen't look Hispanic.
That is an EXTREMELY offensive remark, David. Way outside the bounds of good taste.
If I did a lineup of 100 random. Puerto Ricans and 100 random omahaans I'd bet $100 you could not do better than a blind person picking them out by looks alone.
Pick 100 "Hispanics" including Filipinos from around the world and the looks would be even more diverse.
What do you, David begley think a stereotypical "hispanic" looks like?
For bonus points, define "hispanic".
And don't be so offensive in the future. You usually aren't. This is surprising behavior from you.
Just stop it.
John Henry
I'll go even further. Take my grandkids, go back to great grandparents and with all the cousins, husband's and wives and brothers and sisters you could get a lineup of 100 or so.
I would challenge anyone here to pick the Puerto Ricans from the north American on looks alone.
All are Puerto Rican, if course. Except my parents. But probably probably less than half "look" Puerto Rican.
Skin color and features range from dark AA black to being able to pass for wiscon swede and everthing in between.
And that diversity is just 1 family, 4 generations
And you could do this with most Puerto Rican families.
So anyone want to take a shot at describing what Puerto Ricans look like?
John Henry
Our daughter and son-in-law are pretty Conservative, in the tolerant kind of way. He took our daughter's last name because she was very attached to it and he wasn't particularly fond of his last name. They don't think of it as a big thing---as long as everyone in the family has the same last name, they were satisfied.
As for her father and I, we get together nightly for an evil tycoon "Mwa-ha-ha" fest as we contemplate the founding of our dynasty...
My wife agonoized over whether to take my name or not. I was fine with whatever she decided. She settled on the two last name thing; although, where there's only room for one, she uses mine.
If I had taken her last name, I would share my name with a gay porn star.
Juan Enrique - Can Senior Begley not hum a tune from West Side Story and watch to see who begins twitching?
Ann Althouse said...
"That there's another way for the married couple to have the same last name: The husband can take the wife's last name."
There's a fourth. They could both change their names to something else.
Names are for yourself and it's easy to go by one.
Not one of the three names comprising my full name is on my birth certificate. You just have to start using them and it's much easier if you make this decision early on. The IRS, state tax bureau and city all know me by my alias. Only the DMV seems to care and that hinges on my birth certificate which isn't changed. It's also only a one place, once every four year kind of thing.
The custom with Hispanic names is as follows:
Father: Manuel Sanchez Morales
Mother: Anita Rodriguez Arias
Child: Marina Sanchez Rodriguez
When she marries Luis Avalos Garcia her name is Marina Sanchez Rodriguez de Avalos.
I've never seen the mother's surname being used first.
Apparently it is very difficult to change your name (even just your last name) if you have been convicted of a felony.
MarcusB. THEOLDMAN
I joke with my wife that she includes my last name when she needs money or something like that. Otherwise, she has always used her last name. I don't care anymore. I am 53 and tired. But in 1992, as a Democrat, I was turned off by Hillary Rodham Clinton and how she changed her last name usage for Bill's political career. I was a Tsongas guy back then. After Bill won the nomination, I stop being a D and that year became a Perot guy. Paul Tsongas was a good man.
Political Junkie said...
"I joke with my wife that she includes my last name when she needs money or something like that."
My wife took mine because my credit score was better than hers.
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