The NYT tech reporter, Ryan Mac, responds:This is exactly what has been happening for years. Governments tell Big Tech: censor who we hate or you'll be banned from our country. And they comply.
— Glenn Greenwald (@ggreenwald) May 17, 2023
Brazil has been doing this for months. But this NYT tech reporter doesn't know or care because the targets were conservatives. https://t.co/VSm65n2VEX
It got uglier:Glenn, hope you're doing well. You don't know me, so "doesn't know or care" is quite the accusation. But feel free to take a look at our coverage of the very topic you're talking about.https://t.co/54E6By6iOJhttps://t.co/54E6By6iOJ
— Ryan Mac 🙃 (@RMac18) May 17, 2023
Posts
81 comments:
I think the story here is nobody really reads Twitter, except to take linguistic shots at each other,
More gaslighting from the New York Times, film at eleven.
Where is a quote of Elon Musk saying he is a free speech absolutist? And does the New York Times print all that is fit to print?
Glenn Greenwald’s husband and Brazilian politico just died. This Ryan Mac is awful.
Ryan is CORRECT!
it is Wrong to imply, that a NYT writer either "does not know, or care" about government censorship.
There is a third option Ryan Both knows, and cares; about government censorship.
He Knows about it: because he's Actively doing it
He Cares about it: because he thinks it's WONDERFUL
"Doesn't know/doesn't care" is misdirection. Twitter is following the law in Turkey, as you would expect of any business.
Whether it's a good law that you support is a separate question entirely. In the announcement Yglesias is responding to, Musk advertises what's happening, making it public knowledge that Turkey is censoring. I might prefer that he not comply at all and accept the consequences, but Yglesias and Mac are being awfully careless with somebody else's business and investment. I won't be doing that so long as Musk is upfront, which he is.
Ryan Mac: "doesn't know or care" is quite the accusation."
Also Ryan Mac: "I really don't care."
The NYT is holding Brazil's censorship of conservative speech up as an example to be emulated. Their article is designed to normalize censorship.
@Lyle Smith "Sorry to be a free speech absolutist" -- Elon Musk. Google that phrase for more. Also the NYT prints all the "news" that is fit to print and they get to decide what "news" is.
It's fair to say Greenwald is taking a cheap shot with the "doesn't care" label. Mac might be ignorant but nothing Greenwald said or noted shows Mac has a pattern of ignoring conservative censorship attempts. If Greenwald leveled his broadside against the industry in general he would have some support to his thesis, but to go after Mac specifically...oh well like you said he is grieving so let's make some allowances.
yglesias is so cranially inverted that one could not imagine,
Wasn't Musk just bragging to CNBC his willingness to post anti-Semitic slurs in name of free speech, consequences be damned?
Isn't the elephant in the room here that the *US* government did exactly this during the 2020 election and the pandemic and the NY Times did not and still does not care -- well, except to *approve* of and minimize the censorship that big tech did at the behest of the U.S. government?
Greenwald is mostly correct.
The NYT reporter assumes out of thin air that being in favor of free speech implies some specific course of action when governments threaten a social media outlet. He doesn't say exactly what that course should be, but is offended by the course Twitter is taking and doesn't seem to care that every social media company takes some course of action too.
What most of them do is come to an accommodation with the government, implement it and tell the public nothing--this is apparently okay with the NYT. What Musk is doing with Twitter, is censuring the minimum necessary to avoid being shut-out of a market and then very publicly stating what they're doing and why--this is somehow much worse, in the eyes of the NYT.
Musk supports free speech, but that doesn't mean he has the power to prevent censorship by evil regimes everywhere in the world. Turkey didn't "ask."
Are the other tech companies really on the moral high ground when they also comply with censorship laws because they don't support free speech?
"Have a good one dude"? To me, the fact that a NYT reporter would say this speaks volumes.
Elon Musk is a Free Speech absolutist, but that doesn't mean he's in a position to do anything more than his level best, to make that happen. He's not Elon Almighty. To say he's not really a Free Speech Absolutist because free speech is not yet absolute, is the worst kind of Bad Faith argument.
Left unanswered: Is it better to remove Twitter entirely from a country with an abusive, censorious national government, or is it better to comply to the minimum and leave the platform functioning? When the abused finds themselves in a knife fight with only a club available, is it better to take away the club? They might disagree.
The left are speech crime Nazis. See it clearly.
Defend Twitter for compromising in Turkey. But not Musk for using his platform to dump on Yglesias.
It is true - don’t be so droll.
Yglesias goes to those Davos style meetups where the sessions rum by eurotrash bray about the importance of censorship and how to do it effectively.
Do the Brazilian people have a right to free speech? The British people certainly don't.
Twitter is not the government of Brazil and has to follow the laws of Brazil.
Greenwald isn’t obligated to confine his information to the tweet. Matty has a track record to justify the claims. We could say the same about everyone who leans left or hates Trump. All y’all have a track record on the perversion if free speech and censorship.
We have all the receipts…
The NYT's dipshit reporter responds as you'd expect. Ignores the ISSUE, then lies about the extent of his coverage of Brazil, then insults Greenwald.
Double-down and triple-down. Never give an inch.
And we even the standard Leftwing, "This is different. He's a hypocrite". Y'see if Musk just stoppped caring about Free Speech, then Ryan wouldn't care, just like he didn't care about old twitter censoring people. Or Brazil censoring people.
I always despise that leftwing "We attack him because he's a hypocrite" arugment. They used it for years to go after Conservative Pols and their private lives. While saying nothing about the private lives of liberal/leftists. "Oh, we went after him because he says he's for family values, yet he does..." Yeah, how convinient.
Finally, I thought things were bad here, but Brazil is approaching an insane asylum. If this is how the Left operates in Brazil, I can understand why they have military coups.
I suppose banning Tik-Tok in its entirety, for privacy/ surveillance/ espionage/ propaganda/ child protection reasons, is superior to the selective censorship and viewpoint discrimination that Greenwald describes with respect to Twitter.
If a have one specific criticism of Twitter, it's that I have a hard time discerning these arguments back and forth.
One more thing. NYT's reporters are fungible goods and very replacable. Its really the editors that Greenwald should be debating. Ryan just does what he's told. His copy probably gets rewritten.
I did read Musk’s response at the time and both see his point and the blueprint as described. However, like the complaints about Trump, Musk isn’t the problem here. Edrogan in Turkey is the problem. Just ask Enes Freedom about it, as he gives various interviews about how his speech is amended, not just by Edrogan, but the NBA and China. And as noted previously, the current Administration has shown a willingness to suppress speech here in the US on multiple social media platforms. This should be a scandal that the President has to answer to everyday, but the President isn’t named Trump or has an R, so it’s hardly brought up. Or perhaps it isn’t brought up, because after journalist submit their questions to the White House in advance; those questions don’t get accepted.
"president" Biden is a criminal - and no one in the hack D press (the corrupt compliant press) cares at all.
We are a nation in fast decline - run by the mob and George Soros' dark money.
readering: "Wasn't Musk just bragging to CNBC his willingness to post anti-Semitic slurs in name of free speech, consequences be damned?"
No. Thats simply another of your hoaxed up lefty lies being used by you lefty liars to try and deflect deserved criticism away from George Soros by claiming Musk is anti-semitic and allowed a wave of "anti-semitic" (criticism of Soros) posts on Twitter.
This accusation against Musk comes from a "report" from a far left funded fake "watchdog" group called ISD...
...and ISD is funded by.....George Soros!!!!
Yes folks, Soros-funded ISD created a hoax "anti-semitism" "dossier" against Musk and Twitter!!
Dumb Lefty Mark was pushing this same lie at Althouse just yesterday.
So Ryan dismisses the most fearless reporter of our time with 'Dude.'
I abhor censorship, but Twitter either censors certain things or Turkey blanket-bans the entire App.
Not a great choice...
Wasn't Musk just bragging to CNBC his willingness to post anti-Semitic slurs in name of free speech, consequences be damned?
No. He wasn’t.
NYT demands free speech in Brazil, where freedom of speech is not recognized.
NYT demands censoring of speech in US, where freedom of speech is recognized.
NYT thinks Elon Musk is the problem.
"Dumb Lefty Mark was pushing this same lie at Althouse just yesterday."
You were expecting honesty?
The obvious question being; What else has he been lying to us about?
Yglesias has stated , long ago, that he prefers paternalism as a government ideology. So he's being disingenuous here. As I suspected at the time, it seems his actual preference is for government to compel behavior he, personally, likes.
Also, Mac's claim of "coverage" is laughable. Just compare the framing of the two stories by NYT. The biases are not hidden, at all.
Joe Smith said...
So Ryan dismisses the most fearless reporter of our time with 'Dude.'
Again, these little shits aren't journalists in the meaning of the word and no you little shits you don't get to redefine the word.
Defend Twitter for compromising in Turkey. But not Musk for using his platform to dump on Yglesias.
Don't start nuthin', won't be nuthin'...
It's the Daily Show Effect: these people truly believe that the only *real* sin is hypocrisy. They can't really see any other behavior that isn't explicitly attacking one of their preferred groups (gays, transgenders, BIPOCs, etc) as wrong due to their full embrace of moral and cultural relativism. They can't condemn something like government censorship as bad in itself--after all who are we to judge how other countries treat speech, maybe the censorship's stated goal is protecting people of color from hate, blah blah blah.
What they can criticize, though, is hypocrisy. Jon Stewart made that his focus: here's what people on the right say they think and care about, but here's how they fail to live up to their standard and/or act in a different way. The underlying issue or topic doesn't really mater, it's the (alleged) hypocrisy that matters.
That explains this exchange. Their problem with Elon's action isn't the censorship, since many other places censor, it's that Elon is a hypocrite. It's a meme, but they really do have the mindset where someone could proudly say "I may be a murderer but at least I'm not a hypocrite."
Norm - Cosby - Worst Part
I am Wagyu Ribeye "absolutist", myself. There is no better cut of beef, absolutely.
However, considering the price to be paid, I don't enjoy Wagyu Ribeye steak everyday (not even every week, hell not even every...)
Regarding the principal question whether "this NYT tech reporter doesn't know or care", it looks like he does know and doesn't care.
If old Twitter would inform the public in the timely manner that it moderates the content in response to pressures from certain US politicians and agencies, there would be no need for Musk to restore its credibility.
Why do you call them reporters? Shouldn't a desire for honesty provoke calling them propagandists?
According to Matt Taibbi, the NYT was paid $100 million dollars by google. For what? It isn’t entirely clear.
The story Mac and Greenwald cited is behind the paywall, but the one bit of it I can see in the tweet suggest the NYTimes was supportive of Brazil's government for stopping "lies about the election". Is my inference on the story's tilt correct?
In any case, Ryan Mac comes off in that exchange looking like a complete moron, and a very thin-skinned one at that.
My trust in Greenwald is 100% based on his history of presenting facts to me as a reader, which have been proven true. That’s why I would trust his content over that presented by NYT or Ben Smith both of which have proven untrustworthy over time.
I don't know who Ryan Mac is so I don't know how good he is with technology, but Greenwald beats him in the ability to use words. Mac using both the "you don't know me" and "I don't care what you say or do" in the same thread, along with missing that Glenn had cited those articles Mac is talking about, makes him look self-centered and a bit dim.
Classic cognitive dissonance. He wants to dunk on Elon Musk, but he's all in support of censorship for the "correct" cause. So, the Turkish censorship is bad, but only because Elon is involved.
Useless journalist.
"What Musk is doing with Twitter, is censuring the minimum necessary to avoid being shut-out of a market and then very publicly stating what they're doing and why"
The hallmark of a great business leader.
readering: "Defend Twitter for compromising in Turkey. But not Musk for using his platform to dump on Yglesias."
How many logical fallacies can someone cram into a single short post?
Well, readering would like you to know he/she would very much like to test those limits!
EVERY social media company is required to comply with foreign nations "laws"/rules/regs. And EVERY US based social media commpany complies with the those laws.
But only EVERY single one of them. Just as Twitter was doing from the beginning but only now seems to be some sort of an issue for our desperately censorious lefties.
But then, oddly, or should I say consistently, readering then tries to extrapolite from the Twitter Turkey situation to trying to claim somehow that Musk, by answering Yglesias' twitter post, on Twitter, is somehow authoritarian!!!
So pathetic.
Progressives are a funny lot. They complain about Turkey's Twitter censorship via iPads and iPhones made by slaves in China. Bless their hearts!
"Jon Stewart made that his focus: here's what people on the right say they think and care about, but here's how they fail to live up to their standard and/or act in a different way."
Make the enemy live up to its own book of rules.
- Saul Alinsky
The Right's biggest failing is that they do not understand , "Rules for Radicals" works for them too.
MarkW said...
Isn't the elephant in the room here that the *US* government did exactly this during the 2020 election and the pandemic and the NY Times did not and still does not care -- well, except to *approve* of and minimize the censorship that big tech did at the behest of the U.S. government?
^^^^^ This
readering and lefty Mark provide the usual lefty knee jerk.
"It's the Daily Show Effect: these people truly believe that the only *real* sin is hypocrisy."
You mean like... Killing whales and birds is bad but when it's wind turbines doing it, it's okay? That sort of hypocrisy?
"The obvious question being; What else has he been lying to us about?"
You'd get a shorter answer if you asked what he hasn't been lying about.
Just sayin'.
Yglesias has a long history of being embedded with government censorship. It is no wonder he should be lionizwd with the pro-Stalin NYT.
Remember: Yglesias was one of the corrupt "journolist" hacks that conspired with fellow hack Erza Cline and Obama slimeball David Plouffe to prevent any kind of criticism of Obama to be allowed.
A NYT tech reporter "doesn't know and doesn't care" what Glenn Greenwald is doing? That sounds right to me and that's why the NYT is irrelevant.
Drago reading comprehension down to its usual level. I guess if I were a world class wit like Musk I'd say his brain fell out.
"it is Wrong to imply, that a NYT writer either 'does not know, or care' about government censorship.
"There is a third option Ryan Both knows, and cares; about government censorship.
He Knows about it: because he's Actively doing it"
Umm..."government censorship" is when the government conceals information from the public, including from the press. This is the government's default position on the great majority of information obtained or generated every minute by the government, and always has been.
If Ryan were "actively doing it," as you put it, that would not be government censorship, but something different altogether: reportorial or journalistic censorship, where the journalist or news organ withholds from their readers/viewers information they have obtained. (In the former, the reporter withholds information; in the latter, the journalistic organ as an institution decides to withhold information the reporter(s) may be eager to publish. (This is probably the circumstance in most cases, rather than censorship by the individual reporter(s).)
This has always been the standard procedure of big media, and their concealment of information is coupled with their purposeful dissemination of information they know to be false. The reasons for this deception/censorship by the media are manifold, mostly bad, but sometimes for legitimate reasons, (e.g., when they cannot confirm as accurate information they have received or the legitimacy of sources providing the information, or where the disclosure of certain information might create imminent peril to the public or to particular individuals or institutions).
Umm..."government censorship" is when the government conceals information from the public, including from the press. This is the government's default position on the great majority of information obtained or generated every minute by the government, and always has been.
Cook, Stalin would be so proud of you defending him.
Don't think that corporate America is an unwilling victim of overbearing government dictates. Big Tech, Big Media and the rest of Big Corporation are all partners with Government, all of them being members of The Party.
This is the same Big Tech and Big Media who ask China to supply some slave labor to produce the computer chips and other material goods that they want.
Readering: "Drago reading comprehension down to its usual level. I guess if I were a world class wit like Musk I'd say his brain fell out."
If you were as accomplished and as ingenious as Musk, you just might.
But you're not. So you stuck with just being.......you.
And a reading comprehension level of "0" would be sufficient to pick apart your pedestrian missives.
readering is just upset that his/her sad little attempts to advance the transparently fake anti-semitic accusations against Musk and Twitter have failed to gain any traction.....because they are transparently fake accusations.
Just like all the others.
But only ALL the others.
The claim that it's about "fighting lies" is the biggest lie of all
It's about power, and censoring people who call out the failures of the Left
Response to Musk: You are acting as a propaganda agent for the Turkish Gov't
In a choice between doing that, or not being in the country at all, you should not be in the country
Drago, sorry I don't respond to all your insulting comments. On Musk and Soros, I recommend googling. Maybe include Israeli Foreign Ministry as a search term. Happy hunting.
"'Umm...'government censorship' is when the government conceals information from the public, including from the press. This is the government's default position on the great majority of information obtained or generated every minute by the government, and always has been.'
"Cook, Stalin would be so proud of you defending him."
Your lack of reading comprehension once again appears. I stated objectively the long-time standard operating practices of US journalism--and, we can fairly assume, the standard practice of news organs of all nations. To state the objective truth is not to support or applaud that truth. Of course, it's conceivable you know what I meant and you chose, once again, to make a childish response.
In HS football there is a "slaughter rule" that ends games early when one team is so far outclassed and so far behind that they have no hope of winning, much less surviving.
@readering: just give up now. You have been slaughtered.
It really does amaze me how much these lefty bitter clingers cling to their obviously transparent lies.
Old and slow said...
"Have a good one dude"? To me, the fact that a NYT reporter would say this speaks volumes.
27 years old and knows nothing.
Maynard, it's not sports, it's comments. Yours is tired, but AA apparently approves, so congrats, I guess.
Glenn Greenwald and Elon Musk tower above the cowardly excuses for journalists that we have these days. Elon Musk put his money where his mouth was.
He shows the way that ALL SOCIAL MEDIA should be doing this. If you are forced to censor something because it was demanded to stay in the country, then you PUBLISH THOSE CENSORSHIP demands by those governments. You can get all puffed up and say how YOU would never do that, but you would be lying.
Our lefty social media companies censor, censor, censor at the request of democrats, NEVER publicize those requests but ALSO censor themselves because they just want to censor their republican enemies. That is known.
As far as calling Elon a free-speech absolutist, that is just a typical democrat smear job. Ignore them.
Readering: "Drago, sorry I don't respond to all your insulting comments. On Musk and Soros, I recommend googling. Maybe include Israeli Foreign Ministry as a search term. Happy hunting."
Note to self: pointing readerings nonstop lies and mischaracterizations and logical fallacies is consudered, by readering, to be an insult.
So be it.
Twitter is still maintaining bans on US folks.
He also wants automated blocking, censoring.
He just wants less than before.
“Note to self: pointing [to] readerings nonstop lies and mischaracterizations…”
Ha! This coming from YOU? Too rich in irony.
“I am Wagyu Ribeye "absolutist", myself. There is no better cut of beef, absolutely.”
Cool. Raising 2steers right now. 1/2Holstein. Time will tell.
Elon’s platform- Elon’s rules, I figure. He paid for it.
Very sad about Glenn’s spouse. So very young.
Inga said...
“Note to self: pointing [to] readerings nonstop lies and mischaracterizations…”
"Ha! This coming from YOU? Too rich in irony."
You don't even know what "irony" means so It's probably for your own good that you sit this one out.
“Where is a quote of Elon Musk saying he is a free speech absolutist?“
Hi Right-Wingers!
I know your tribe prefers to go through life in as low-information a capacity as possible, but if you really want the answers to things what you can do is - in this instance - GOOGLE: “Elon Musk Free Speech Absolutist” and the machine will tell you all the times he said that. He actually pretended to be very proud to call himself such a thing.
What a right-winger he is. Not only does he conduct his own user bans (without any policy to guide them, just his own personal whims), but he bends to government dictates (the REAL threat to “free speech” as a concept) without even a second thought. The guy is a weasel of the highest order. And Greenwald is not far behind.
"Have a good one dude"? To me, the fact that a NYT reporter would say this speaks volumes.
27 years old and knows nothing.
Ok Boomers.
Have fun figuring out how your new-fangled phone machines work and getting that jar of pickles to open.
And don’t turn your teevee volumes down, either. The O’Reillys and Hannitys and current FOX/OAN guys really are yelling at everyone else besides you.
Umm..."government censorship" is when the government conceals information from the public, including from the press. This is the government's default position on the great majority of information obtained or generated every minute by the government, and always has been.
Cook, Stalin would be so proud of you defending him.
Cook is simply stating a fact, you Nixon defender.
Stop ingesting the Trump-brand COVID disinfectant and dewormers.
"president" Biden is a criminal - and no one in the hack D press (the corrupt compliant press) cares at all.
Or apparently in any district or attorneys generals offices, which is where charges for those things are brought.
Guess they don’t have a case.
Your home schooling didn’t include the same civics classes everyone in a well-funded district takes in high school?
Elon Musk put his money where his mouth was.
After being forced to by a Delaware court. And before losing a sh*t ton of it.
He shows the way that ALL SOCIAL MEDIA should be doing this.
Nope. Those guys are capitalists. So they won’t be choosing to lose money by promoting unpopular right-wing disinformation and hate in the so-called marketplace of ideas any time soon.
Elon Musk put his money where his mouth was.
After being forced to by a Delaware court. And before losing a sh*t ton of it.
He shows the way that ALL SOCIAL MEDIA should be doing this.
Nope. Those guys are capitalists. So they won’t be choosing to lose money by promoting unpopular right-wing disinformation and hate in the so-called marketplace of ideas any time soon.
Thats simply another of your hoaxed up lefty lies being used by you lefty liars to try and deflect deserved criticism away from George Soros by claiming Musk is anti-semitic and allowed a wave of "anti-semitic" (criticism of Soros) posts on Twitter.
Criticism of George Soros?
I think you mean demonization of him. Making him out to be Satan. Or Judas.
Very different from anti-semitism.
He’s just somehow an all-powerful manipulative puppet-master, responsible for every evil in the world - in the minds of the right-wing.
But anti-semites never traffic in such conspiracies. They just have very logical and factual “criticisms.”
Right.
Rusty that's about as tired as comments get here.
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