I think not. What's overwhelmingly important is which party gets the majority in the Senate, and every single Senate race could be the one that shifts the power one way or the other. All Fetterman needed to do was not seem dangerously incompetent, and he crossed that low bar. The rest is chitter-chatter. Good night!
But I'll give you some links:
"Fetterman's painful debate" (Axios)("Fetterman struggled at times to respond to the moderators' questions, even with the assistance of a closed captioning device").
"POLITICO Playbook: How much will John Fetterman’s rocky night matter?" (Politico)("The plain fact is that Fetterman was not capable of debating Oz. He could have skipped the debate... but the Fetterman campaign gambled that the media would educate voters about his auditory issues and then referee any attacks on him with charges of ableism").
"The Terrible, Horrible, No Good, Very Bad Pennsylvania Debate/Oz came across as obnoxious. Fetterman struggled to connect" (The Bulwark)("In what sounded like lyrics snatched from Chumbawamba, Fetterman promised that if he got 'knocked down,' he would 'keep coming back up.' He’ll need that kind of attitude in the days ahead").
"John Fetterman debate was painful and shameful — he is physically incapable of being a senator" (John Podhoretz, NY Post)("Only one thing mattered, and that was watching Fetterman try to make a showing of himself despite his painful impairment. I don’t want to quote what he said or make specific note of his speech patterns or answers because it would be unnecessarily cruel").
"Fetterman, Showing Stroke Effects, Battles Oz in Hostile Senate Debate/Lt. Gov. John Fetterman, a Democrat, tried to assure voters of his fitness to serve. Dr. Mehmet Oz, a former celebrity physician and Republican, attacked him as too radical for the job" (NYT)("Mr. Fetterman’s words were frequently halting, and it was apparent when he was delayed in either reading or reaching for a phrase or word. But he was also fluent enough over the course of the hour to present his Democratic vision...").
Posts
146 comments:
Maybe that should be "Fetterman's Rocky Horror night."
Saying that Fetterman was not dangerously incompetent is delusional cruel neutrality. He was incoherent and generally incapable of delivering comprehensible remarks germane to the subject at hand. Troll better, professor.
“All Fetterman needed to do was not seem dangerously incompetent, and he crossed that low bar. The rest is chitter-chatter. Good night!”
You must be joking,.
Hard to do when you sent in your mail in ballot early. This is what you get when you listen to the lying media. You get stuck with a loser.
That he had a stroke is tragic and sad - No one wishes a stroke on anyone.
The real problem with Fetterman? - he's a pro-crime democrat, with a record. That should be a deal killer for everyone.
It does add some importance to the Gov race, though. There is a larger than normal chance that the PA Govenor would appoint a replacement to Fetterman, no? This performance can’t have made Shapiro (D nominee for gov) happy.
And if there are really any mythical undecideds that will actually vote, did Fetterman sway them? Even if it didn’t move D->R, it may have moved U->R.
How can Fetterman get ANY votes?
Who, in their right mind, would vote for this guy?
The Democrat party holds voters in contempt. What were they thinking to allow this guy to run?
If Fetterman wins, we are not a serious country and completely corrupt.
"All Fetterman needed to do was not seem dangerously incompetent, and he crossed that low bar."
You have GOT to be kidding.
I think at least some people who agree with Fetterman politically will recognize that putting him in the Senate would be a cruel and inhumane thing to do. The man is not well, and should be recuperating, not engaging in stressful activities. Shame on his wife.
https://www.predictit.org/markets/detail/7016/Which-party-will-win-the-US-Senate-election-in-Pennsylvania-in-2022
Oof.
How many mail in ballotes cast before the debate?
A fucking Young Frankenstein “Puttin’ On The Ritz” performance!
And to think some people could choke that down… this country is doomed.
Switch? No. Stay home or skip that race on the ballot? Possible.
Fetterman have a valid driver's license? How about Joe?
I assume Pennsylvania has the usual number of “undecided” voters. These folks might just decide to vote for a candidate who is not mentally impaired, if balance in the Senate and positions on the issues hadn’t already made the difference.
A more relevant question might be how many independents who might've voted for Fetterman won't vote in the race at all. They don't have to switch to OZ, just not vote at all.
Oh it is going to change votes. It was stunning.
Pennsylvanians have not seen him like this before. They've only seen him at his rallies doing nothing except delivering canned talking points in short bits - and avoiding questions from reporters. Here he was last night, speaking extemporaneously, showing his inability to conceptualize the questions or to synthesize responses.
That's the first time PA voters have seen the real Fetterman. It was catastrophic for his campaign. Hardcore Dems will stick with him, of course; they're already making lame excuses. But a lot of shocked PA voters who might have voted for him yesterday will abandon him. Watch the polls; he's going to take a big hit.
I think the problem rests with exactly who is making the decisions.
Fetterman has demonstrated he cannot. Someone has to. This is a situation ripe for abuse and corruption.
Same with Biden. Who is the person the people can hold responsible?
Who won the Battle of the Bulge? Hmmmm,
All Fetterman needed to do was not seem dangerously incompetent, and he crossed that low bar.
You and I watched very different debates.
"All Fetterman needed to do was not seem dangerously incompetent, and he crossed that low bar."
Wut? If the bar was resting on the floor, Festerman didn't/ couldn't crawl over it. No one expected him to be this bad.
In desperation, watch for the January 6 committee to subpoena Dr. Oz in the next few days or the FBI to open an investigation (I kid).
Stroke or no stroke - Fetterman is too radical for the job.
That he cannot communicate effectively is just a reality check that the Dems should have rushed into replace him. Why didn't they?
Same reason we have Biden. The dems don't need a qualified candidate to they? Any puppet will do.
It didn't matter that FDR was paralyzed and JFK had all sorts of sexually transmitted diseases, why should it matter that Fetterman is basically retarded?
Dave Begley: "How can Fetterman get ANY votes?"
Ask any hardcore lefty, like a gadfly or Inga, and they'll tell you.
Well, gadfly won't tell you quite yet. He/she/xe is still in Pretend Conservative Mode so it'll have to wait until after the election.
Maybe the Dems are just voting for him so that he gets "incapacitated" and his wife takes over. Seems the governor gets to appoint a new person until the next election.
Maybe the Dems are just voting for him so that he gets "incapacitated" and his wife takes over. Seems the governor gets to appoint a new person until the next election.
I think not. What's overwhelmingly important is which party gets the majority in the Senate, and every single Senate race could be the one that shifts the power one way or the other. All Fetterman needed to do was not seem dangerously incompetent, and he crossed that low bar. The rest is chitter-chatter. Good night!
I think you are wrong.
It is humiliating to be a warmongering pro crime inflation causing pro censorship democrat.
Having leaders of your party being stupid invalids just makes it worse.
Not everyone is comfortable being a stupid shithead.
On the margins people are slinking away from the democrat party because it is so ridiculous and stupid.
It won't matter to yellow dog democrats (people who would vote for a yellow dog as long as it was a democrat - a southern expression I grew up hearing). It may well matter in the squish zones. It may also dampen dem enthusiasm further, in precincts where the local dem will win regardless but they need the get-out-to-vote for the state races.
All Fetterman needed to do was not seem dangerously incompetent, and he crossed that low bar.
Did he really? Sensible people disagree with you, Prr Rt ofessor.
IMHO Fetterman is about the only candidate Oz could beat. Donald Trump and Sean Hannity will have a lot to answer for if Oz loses, because it’s my belief that David McCormick would have wrapped this race up a month ago. But thank you, Pennsylvania Democrats, for choosing the brain-damaged hulk who chases black joggers with his shotgun (jogging while black is a crime in Braddock, PA?) but who thinks murderers should not be incarcerated. Good on you! Conor Lamb would have been leading by double digits right now.
Stroke victims running for political office should produce some sort of cognitive assessment. Ditto for extremely stupid politicians (like Herschel Walker) and a lot of the very old senators who seem to be suffering from Alzheimer's.
Only pussies and Putin Puppies think the US is doomed. That said, this race is embarrassing despicable disgusting etc. But the United States of America is more than just prurient political pornography and an overreaching government. It is a nation of basically squared away highly educated competent people that live in an environment with a superior infrastructure great wealth of natural resources the protection of two great oceans and the Great White North above. It it any Wonder that the best brightest hard working people from around the world clamor to get here? We're also blessed with endless natural beauty that in response to the environmental engineering efforts over the past 50 years have restored the land waters and air to a very high level allowing us to recreate and recharge our batteries among healthy flora and fauna in their clean and wild splendor.
The NYTimes says he's "fluent enough". In other words, he's a breathing Democrat.
Why is Fetterman being propped up at all? Based on his pre-stroke life, he was - at best - unimpressive. At worst, racist. So why go to all this trouble to protect him? Did his campaign lie to the DNC, as well as voters, about how bad the stroke so they wouldn't replace him months ago or were they in on it too? I don't know enough about Pennsylvania politics to give an example, but I will give you an Ohio one. If Senator Sherrod Brown had a stroke 6 months prior to people voting on his reelection, voters would know something about what he believes in and also could see how the stroke may have affected him. With his long history of service, he would not be easily replaced and I would understand voters giving him some slack. I have relatives in their 20's with a longer work history than Fetterman - and none of them threatened an unarmed black jogger. Fetterman should have stepped out to recover and then come back to his political career. I better understand why he chose not to than why the Democratice Party allowed him the choice.
They first key in PA is independents and suburbans who lean left but are married with kids so they are grounded a bit in reality. Nothing will change the hard core D's but those in the middle will vote for Oz after seeing that performance. Or they won't vote at all since Shapiro, the D, is sure to win. They might stay home. Oz is seen as a pretty safe, moderate guy here.
The second key is that an R will have to win by enough to overcome the D manufactured votes. Traditionally those votes came from just Philly and Pittsburgh so the amount of manufacturing was not infinite. Now, with the D's controlling many of the suburbs as well they can manufacture even more D votes.
Cheating can become a habit. They cheated in 2020 so there is no reason to suspect that it won't go on again at an even bigger scale. The state R party is pretty incompetent here and I am not confident in their ability to prevent cheating. They seem to rely on complaining about it after the fact.
A couple evenings ago, CNN happened to be on in our home, and so I watched a couple minutes.
CNN reported an opinion poll that Fetterman is leading Oz -- 51% to 45%. Wolf Blitzer spent a couple minutes discussing that poll with a CNN analyst, who considered that poll to be definitive about that election race.
After two years of a brain-addled Democrat President, if the citizens of Pennsylvania are foolish enough to vote for an obviously brain-addled Democrat for their Senator, then they deserve whatever happens to them.
Did not watch. I do not live in PA. I believe Ann is dead right on this. It is about the party and not the candidate here. Ds will vote for my dog Frankie before they would vote for an R.
I don't think anyone actually disagrees with me. The majority in the Senate is more important than the fact that the ONE person who gives YOUR party the majority is nothing but a seat held by your party. If you're acting like you're disagreeing with me, I think it's because you want the GOP to have the majority. That is, you're part of the chitter-chatter that is about like listening to the newest pop song.
Prove me wrong!
NYT: "But he was also fluent enough over the course of the hour to present his Democratic vision...."
What does this even mean? "I want to join my fellow Democrats in bringing the country to its knees?" Having watched videos of Fetterman I doubt he could even have gotten that thought across.
This is not a referendum on Fetterman's mental acumen. It is a referendum on the mental acumen and the integrity of Pennsylvania Democrats. The vote is already in on the DNC and the mediaswine. They have been found wanting.
"Prove me wrong!"
It's actually a matter of integrity isn't it? I doubt that your commenters are appalled by the fact that Republicans might not have a majority, but that Democrats would stoop to electing someone obviously mentally defective to achieve that end.
Of course, appalled doesn't mean surprised. After all, there is QuidProJoe. If you're out to screw the country, the means are not important.
"Blogger Unknown said...
I assume Pennsylvania has the usual number of “undecided” voters. These folks might just decide to vote for a candidate who is not mentally impaired"
--
This notion is not "part of the chitter-chatter that is about like listening to the newest pop song."
It's cool that Fetty so deftly reversed his stance on fracking.
I think this would be simpler for Dems if they put him in a medically induced coma and deputized his wife.
btw, The Eagles ARE better than the Eagles.
Don Henley says so.
Fetterman, like Joe "Shit For His Brains" Biden would simply be a figurehead in office. In short, competence as a Senator doesn't actually matter- Fetterman's vote on everything is already known.
Fetterman is clearly incapable of caring for himself, just like Biden, but that simply won't matter. His ass will be wiped by aides, like Biden's. He will be spoon fed his food, like Biden. Fetterman will be wheeled into the Senate chamber for the votes, the vote buttons will be pushed as directed by the Democrat leader, and will probably be pushed by holding Fetterman's finger down by his nurse-aide. In short, Althouse is correct- as disasterous as that performance was (and it was a disaster- I watched the entire thing and I was laughing my ass off at Fetterman's incapacity- no one running for office in this condition deserves sympathy- they deserve contempt)- Fetterman is all but certain to win in two weeks. The fraud vote won't change at all- the ballot boxes will be stuffed just the same, and probably with an extra helping of fraud mail-in-vote just to be sure. And the authentic voters for Fetterman don't care that he is an even bigger drooling moron.
And, what is that thing on his neck? Looks like a big alien slug has burrowed inside.
There are a substantial amount of people who are not voting for independent cognitive ability but rather for strict adherence to ideology.
My question is: if Fetterman were NOT impaired would he be expected to vote any different in the Senate?
I am Laslo.
"What's overwhelmingly important is which party gets the majority in the Senate, and every single Senate race could be the one that shifts the power one way or the other."
For the political class, which includes most commenters here, that approach to this election is almost certainly what's driving their vote. But those voters are never really up for grabs. What matters is the impact of Fetterman's obvious weaknesses on voters who aren't focused on politics, who have little or no partisan loyalties and are far more concerned about basic matters (making ends meet, the cost of living, safety in the streets, personal autonomy, whatever) rather than which party controls the Senate. Those voters may be a small segment of the overall electorate, but in close elections they are clearly the ones that matter.
We're not in Kansas anymore
My brother lives in PA and my parents are buried there. I visit there a lot. I don’t think that strategic voting is foremost in the minds of the undecided there. Fracking is pretty high up there though. His flip flop on fracking tells you that even he knows that Pennsylvanians don’t want him voting with Schumer 100% of the time.
I think the argument is -- A. Hundreds of thousands of ballots have already been cast. B. The remaining voters have already settled on a candidate. C. This debate won't even dissuade young and less educated voters from voting for Fetterman because they din't watch it. So taking A, B and C together, this debate won't matter.
But it's hard to believe that this debate won't impact undecided voters. But just how many are out there?
It does bring the phrase 'party over country' to mind.
Prove me wrong!
I have to find a Democrat that was motivated to retain the Senate by going to the polls to vote for Fetterman, then watched the debate, and was demotivated and will decide to stay home?
Wait, no, that is not the most likely response.
I think the bar is just finding an Independent, who didn't like Oz and was motivated to vote for Fetterman against Oz, but after watching the debate decided to stay home and not vote. Or maybe even a Republican, who also detested Oz and was planning to skip that race, but after seeing the debate realizes the threat Fetterman poses and now will vote for Oz. That last type of person is bound to exist in this comment section.
I suppose there is even that person that isn't interested in politics but every so often will tune in to the final weeks of an election cycle to see who they might vote. That person watched this debate and decided they couldn't in good conscious vote for Fetterman and will therefore vote for Oz. There is probably a focus group survey claiming to show such a person. Let's check.
Yep: "Eric, an independent, said before the debate he was leaning toward Fetterman, but now he has changed to Oz’s side. "I felt that Fetterman just looked like he didn’t have command of the facts. I do think his condition, unfortunately, is going to affect his ability to do the job. I thought Oz was pretty clear on the issues, and I thought he presented himself well. He definitely threw out some plans, where I didn’t see any plans coming out of Fetterman,” Eric said."
Oh wait, you meant disagreeing with you about our own motivations, not about your OP comment about anyone switching their vote. Yeah, I want Republicans to have the majority, even if it means a Senator Oz.
It frankly doesn't matter if any person changes their vote. Democrats have perfected vote fraud to such a high degree, and with so many co-conspirators, that the election of Fetterman is a foregone conclusion.
Or they never would have put him up there for all to see.
Elections are not going to be the method we are going to be forced to use to get them out of corrupt seats of power.
It's gonna take true grit.
It frankly doesn't matter if any person changes their vote. Democrats have perfected vote fraud to such a high degree, and with so many co-conspirators, that the election of Fetterman is a foregone conclusion.
Or they never would have put him up there for all to see.
Elections are not going to be the method we are going to be forced to use to get them out of corrupt seats of power.
It's gonna take true grit.
Fetty has an excuse. Why is Shapiro refusing to debate Mastriano?
Biden/Fetty 2023!
"Two heads almost as good as one!"
What is “dangerously incompetent” in this context? If you don’t need to comprehend what people are saying and don’t need to speak competently yourself, as in making any sense, then who could be disqualified on these grounds? The US Senate is supposed to be a deliberative body. We should at least elect people who are able to do so, no matter what side of the aisle they’re on. We’ve learned
"I think not."
Not most Dems. And if a 2020 sideline-sitter like Althouse declares it won't change anything, we should take that seriously, of course. But as others have said, the performance will give the mushy middle pause and perhaps lead to more abstentions.
"What's overwhelmingly important is which party gets the majority in the Senate"
Obviously true. And unlike the right, not just obsessed with power but still sensitive to the clownishness of its clowns, Dems keep their eyes on the prize.
"All Fetterman needed to do was not seem dangerously incompetent, and he crossed that low bar"
That's defining competence down. Is there a bar? Where? The only relevant Dem bar is the (D). Competence doesn't come into it, and perhaps in a democracy it shouldn't.
"If you're acting like you're disagreeing with me, I think it's because you want the GOP to have the majority."
Not sure if I'm "acting like" that, but I do think the dynamic on the left and right is different. Prediction: due to many GA GOPers preferring their own high regard over the national interest, Kemp will prevail by a much bigger margin than Herschel.
Anyway, the Fetterman fiasco should once and for all refute the Dem conceit that they are more competent, party of science and rationality, and the right deplorably out of it.
The election should be a cakewalk for Dems. They only have to cheat in about five races. In Arizona, Maricopa County Republicans will help them. In Pennsylvania, Nevada and Wisconsin, the machinery is already in place. Georgia, NC and NH might be a little tougher, but I suspect they'll manage.
The bonus in Arizona is they keep Kari Lake out while getting two more mindless Democrats, Kelly and Hobbs, in.
Since they are shameless and have courts and mediaswine cover, they don't need to change 2020 tactics much.
The stakes are too high for Democrats to allow the voters to decide.
"Only pussies and Putin Puppies think the US is doomed. That said, this race is embarrassing despicable disgusting etc."
Tell that to Hillary and Matthew Dodds of your team. They seem to think that people using their right to vote is going to doom democracy because they have different opinions of what we want America to be. Most of us are sick and tired of the corrupt criminal element of the left who get away with everything. When you have the FBI as your gestapo, and the DOJ actively jailing political prisoners for having different opinions than they do, this is what happens.
2 Democratic Senators had strokes this year, and one's running for reelection. I feel differently about stroke victims than folks like Grassley and Feinstein. (Or Biden and Trump.)
Ann, I think your perspective is a little too black and white (is that phrase still allowed?). I almost feel like you are arguing that there are voters that will vote for Fetterman no matter what, and voters who will vote for Oz no matter what, and people who have no idea. In other words, no leaners. For yellow dog Dems, and whatever GOP no matter what voters are called (we need a name for them), the brain isn’t what matters, it’s the finger on the vote button in the Senate that matters. You are correct there. I posit that there may be Fetterman leaners for whom partisan power isn’t the deciding factor. For instance, there may be disaffected Republicans who despise Trump, and therefore are leaning to Fetterman to stick it to Trump. The performance last night might be enough to push them to hold their nose and vote Oz because this is a bridge too far. Unless you also think that those same leaners that I say exist are also speculating, as I do, that if Fetterman is elected, they’ll just pull a Jean Carnahan and put his wife in. I don’t think most people think that way. Not sure how to accurately gauge that. In short, though I can’t prove you wrong, the voters in PA may, and we’ll likely never know how many were swayed by this.
And the authentic voters for Fetterman don't care that he is an even bigger drooling moron.
I think the plan is to substitute his wife. She looks like a nasty Hillary type.
"But it's hard to believe that this debate won't impact undecided voters. But just how many are out there?"
Not enough to exceed the level of fraud. Fetterman will be elected.
Howard is correct, we're not in Kansas, we're in Philly and Pittsburgh.
The majority in the Senate is more important than the fact that the ONE person who gives YOUR party the majority is nothing but a seat held by your party.
Then people should stop attacking the opposition candidate based on personal characteristics.
If it's all about party, stop with the "(insert name of Republican here) is a Nazi!" Who cares if they flip-flopped? Or if they even reside in your state? Or let a murderer out to murder again.
If it's all about party, Democrats should also admit that if Trump were their nominee for President they'd actively defend and cheerfully vote for him.
And people like Mitch McConnell can shut up about "candidate quality" when a guy like Fetterman is still in the race.
Richard Dolan: "For the political class, which includes most commenters here ...."
Obviously, "political class" doesn't mean what you think it means.
Howard seems to be living in the 1950s with his paean to America as it was when I was a boy. Now we live in a country with 57 genders and drage queen shows for children.
If that's what you truly mean, then your opinion of Democrat voters is very low, indeed.
What is interesting to me is how resolute the spin has been since Fetterman had his stroke. It must have been a serious one, if this is 6 months in post-recovery, and he apparently has a history of untreated problems leading up to it. And yet, they persevered with his campaign, insisting he was fine while hiding him, like Joe, in the basement. They initially refused any debates, indicating they knew the seriousness of the situation. And then bowing to pressure, they stuck him up there last night.
So it would appear the Democrats share your opinion. I don't know; But are we still in the days of voting party lines? Are we still in the days of Trade Unions having the power to swing elections, a similar theme? I guess we'll see. I had to vote for the Republican candidate for Senate in the last election, someone I neither like nor trust, nor think highly of - but who has political clout. What's Fetterman's attraction? It's an indictment of a two party system, isn't it.
So, now the bar is "dangerously incompetent," not merely or even totally incompetent? As we're seeing with Brandon, the trouble with that standard is, you'll only see the dangerousness after the incompetent is in office and it's too late to do anything about it.
A significant difference here is that if Republicans pulled a Fetterman, the media would be absolutely relentless with in kind donations to the opponent.
I mean..moreso than already.
It's possible some move from leaning D to not voting in that race.
It’s grotesque that anyone would vote for a vegetable such as Fetterman, but, they voted for a corrupt pedophile named Biden.
The majority in the Senate is more important than the fact that the ONE person who gives YOUR party the majority is nothing but a seat held by your party.
...
Prove me wrong!
The party people are about 35% Democratic and 30% Republican in general across the US. In specific states, that ratio is different, but the argument still holds. Thus only those people care about the seat and not the candidate. If it were only about the seat, there would not be much change in each state as to who gets elected in statewide races. The mush middle determines the outcome in many states, though a very bad candidate in a strong partisan state could lose.
According to Pew, the breakdown of PA is 39% Rep/lean Rep, and 46% Dem/lean Dem. 15% in the middle. That 15% is enough to swing any election. I don't see a breakdown of hard core vs lean, but even if each side only had 5% lean ( would surmise it is greater), those 5% can also swing depending on the candidate. And some of the less hard core might "sit this one out", so you could have as much as a 20% swing plus an additional 5% no show to end up with a 62.5% Rep, 38.5% Dem result in an election where the Dem candidate is really bad. But in this case all it takes is for 75% of the middle to swing Oz's way for the Rep win: 51/49 or 2/3 with a 5% Dem stay at home.
It makes the election for Pennsylvania's GOVERNOR more important. ( I assume, without checking, the Governor appoints candidates to fill empty seats in the US Senate, and that Fettermann will vacate that seat very shortly after winning it.)
Good one readering!
That ole Trump is just another confused elder holding rallies and elevating candidates across the country.
Or..you just hate his guts.
"Oz came across as obnoxious"
If one candidate can't perform and the other stands aside and just lets it happen, people who support the poorly performing candidate will find his or her opponent obnoxious, conceited, and smug. If people feel they have to oppose or hate you, succeeding can be a kind of failing for them.
Who will vote for Fetterman?
People ...
1) who always vote Democrat
2) who want the Congress to remain Democrat
3) who hate and fear Trump
4) who hate out-of-staters
5) who are dead or non-existent.
It's true that most people will vote for their party no matter who the specific candidate is, but elections are still decided by the people who don't care about party and will vote for the person.
Even if only 2% of the vote is still up for grabs (the realty is, about 20% of people are independent swing voters), if the debate lost Fetterman that 2%, then it lost him the election.
Blogger J Melcher said...
It makes the election for Pennsylvania's GOVERNOR more important. ( I assume, without checking, the Governor appoints candidates to fill empty seats in the US Senate, and that Fettermann will vacate that seat very shortly after winning it.)
--
Boom!
And Shapiro is avoiding debating Mastriano in a tight race.
Fix is in.
"I doubt that your commenters are appalled by the fact that Republicans might not have a majority, but that Democrats would stoop to electing someone obviously mentally defective to achieve that end."
Oh, I don't think anyone is appalled by anything (except maybe how stupidly partisan we are). If a Republican senatorial candidate were equally impaired, Republicans would "stoop" to electing him. Let's not pretend one side is more substantive than the other. Both are terrible. And the composite terribleness is worse than the candidate-level terribleness.
"So, now the bar is "dangerously incompetent," not merely or even totally incompetent?"
Yes, I think if he were minimally sentient but would vote reliably as told, those who want Democratic Party control of the Senate will still vote for him. The only problem would be is somehow as a Senator he would have the power to do something that was actually dangerous. I don't see how the structure of the Senate would even permit that, so that's why I say it's a very low bar (and he crossed it).
A truly neutral person might admire Fetterman for going out there and letting his vulnerability show. He could have opted out, but there were risks to doing that, and he chose the active route, knowing he could be humiliated and knowing that he would be attacked for every screw-up, of which there would be many.
The debate may not have influenced any voters but it sure influenced PredictIt bettors. They have Oz almost 30 points over Fetterman. Oz had already been up there, but the gap widened a bit more beginning last evening.
PA: "Hey, don't look at us like that! He's only cognitively challenged. It's not like we elected (over and over again) a guy who left a girl to drown in a car crash and called a campaign fixer before the first responders!"
All Fetterman needed to do was not seem dangerously incompetent, and he crossed that low bar.
I would beg to differ. He proved completely incapable of serving as a senator or, for that matter, pretty much any important position. Honestly, I am not sure he is capable of taking care of himself at the moment without significant help. That is dangerous. The only bar he managed to cross is "I'm not dead." I suppose by your logic, being dead would not be a hindrance either, as long as his corpse votes for the correct party. I am starting to understand the logic behind the Biden in the Basement campaign. Apparently, he wasn't dangerous either. Live and learn.
I'll also note that in my experience with politics, it is very foolish to interpret your reaction to something as being the general reaction to something. Voters have all sorts of different decision-making processes. If you see an ad and think it stupid, most likely you were not the target of ad. Stupid ads can be extremely effective when used properly. There are plenty of voters who vote for the man, not the party, and there are plenty of voters who can be inspired to or discouraged from showing up to vote. I suspect the damage from this performance will be large. Will it change the outcome? Don't know. It is certainly not the outcome Fetterman wanted, given the reaction of his campaign today, and not the sort of massive misstep you want when the commanding lead from earlier in the year has been quickly dwindling.
"Oh, I don't think anyone is appalled by anything (except maybe how stupidly partisan we are). If a Republican senatorial candidate were equally impaired, Republicans would "stoop" to electing him. Let's not pretend one side is more substantive than the other. Both are terrible. And the composite terribleness is worse than the candidate-level terribleness."
Possibly. But please name the Republican senatorial candidate as impaired as Fetterman. Please name the GOP presidential candidate as cognitively impaired as Biden.
(NB: Don't say "Reagan." Reagan in '84 was sharper than Biden in '20 and much, much sharper than Fetterman is now.)
J Melcher said... It makes the election for Pennsylvania's GOVERNOR more important. ( I assume, without checking, the Governor appoints candidates to fill empty seats in the US Senate, and that Fettermann will vacate that seat very shortly after winning it.)
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Fetterman will vacate only if Shapiro wins. Otherwise, into the basement, and 'Really, this is John's vote.' and Mitch, out of the kindness of his amphibious heart, will allow him to proxy vote. Just him.
J Melcher said... It makes the election for Pennsylvania's GOVERNOR more important. ( I assume, without checking, the Governor appoints candidates to fill empty seats in the US Senate, and that Fettermann will vacate that seat very shortly after winning it.)
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Fetterman will vacate only if Shapiro wins. Otherwise, into the basement, and 'Really, this is John's vote.' and Mitch, out of the kindness of his amphibious heart, will allow him to proxy vote. Just him.
So Fetterman is another empty suit, a placeholder as it were, similar to Slow Joe. What a country.
I like this Althouse approach of repeated benefit of the doubt cloaked in neutrality.
She did preface it with "might". So there's that.
"A truly neutral person might admire Fetterman for going out there and letting his vulnerability show. He could have opted out, but there were risks to doing that, and he chose the active route, knowing he could be humiliated and knowing that he would be attacked for every screw-up, of which there would be many."
Are you serious? I mean, really, are you serious? Should a plumber with cognitive issues be admired for going to fix a sink and mistakenly flooding the house? Should an accountant with cognitive issues be admired for botching an income statement? Should a heart surgeon who is cognitively impaired be admired for walking into an operating theater and promptly killing his patient through ineptitude?
Seriously?
A truly neutral person might admire Fetterman for going out there and letting his vulnerability show.
I hope we are beyond giving political offices out like participation trophies.
A truly neutral person might also worry about this man's health and, out of charity, not vote for him.
A truly neutral person might admire Fetterman for going out there and letting his vulnerability show.
You can appreciate someone's courage and sympathize with their plight, and still not want them to be your lawyer or your doctor or your children's teacher. I feel bad for Fetterman, but the honest assessment is no one in his state of health should be in any position of authority until he recovers, which does not appear to be soon.
Most likely the reason he went out there was the stories about his mental impairment were becoming so damaging to the campaign, especially the curated interview which went so badly that the interviewer called it out, that his handlers felt they had no choice in the matter. If he managed to do decent that would probably have been sufficient to convince enough voters that he may not be in good health but he can do the job. This performance was... not that.
Turnout is the issue. Lightly attached Republicans may bother to go vote, lightly attached Democrats may not bother, independents who lean left may not bother. There is also the issue of people perceiving that the press has been lying about Fetterman's fitness - that seems to be a main line of discussion in my Twitter feed. We'll know in a week.
If a Republican senatorial candidate were equally impaired, Republicans would "stoop" to electing him.
Cite an example.
I’m not thinking to make fun of him for his health whammy this year, but you keep yourself in a situation where precision matters and you can’t do that? Yeah, you put yourself out there with evident problems and if you get a thrashing from a media personality. Gonna get a down vote. If someone witty goes after you? Don’t care. Your fault, your mess.
"Prove me wrong!"
If Fetterman were a Republican, and voting for him gave the Republicans a majority, I would still not vote for him. I would abstain. It would go against my conscience to put a man like that in a place where his medical condition is sure to get worse, in a humiliating fashion.
'The majority in the Senate is more important than the fact that the ONE person who gives YOUR party the majority is nothing but a seat held by your party.'
You are correct.
But couldn't PA Ds have found a sentient democrat stooge?
I mean, Fetterman or any other D will vote the same way, but it's such a bad look to have a cognitively-impaired person as your 'Best and Brightest.'
People on other sites are making comments such as "Now do Herschel Walker" and "Well the GOP is running Walker in Georgia, and that's not much different".
Herschel Walker is not suffering from a stroke. Yes, he speaks slow with the southern drawl which democrats take to mean a person is ignorant. The left have always been racist when it comes to black men who do not vote as they are told. Remember it was Biden who said, "If you aren't voting for me, you aren't black" or something along those lines.
I watched the debate in full last night. Fetterman has definite cognitive difficulties. It wasn't just that he had auditory problems and "mish-mashed" words. He didn't understand the words and could not articulate a response to questions. That is not what we need in the Senate where the ability to debate and understand the issues is important.
“And, what is that thing on his neck? Looks like a big alien slug has burrowed inside.”
That’s the electric supercharger the medical team implanted in his neck. To improve his Zippy the Pinhead level cognitive function.
Or it’s MiniFett
“And, what is that thing on his neck? Looks like a big alien slug has burrowed inside.”
That’s the electric supercharger the medical team implanted in his neck. To improve his Zippy the Pinhead level cognitive function.
Or it’s MiniFett
“He could have opted out, but there were risks to doing that, and he chose the active route, knowing he could be humiliated and knowing that he would be attacked for every screw-up, of which there would be many.”
That’s funny, pull the other one.
A guy that’s never held a job and whose lifestyle has been wholly funded by his parents and sister doesn’t know “humiliation”. He’s heard of it, but he doesn’t actually feel it.
A truly neutral person might admire Fetterman for going out there and letting his vulnerability show.
No, a neutral person would base his decisions on how well the candidate could solve the problems he is elected to solve. (That's what the debate was about). That may vary by political party based on the perceived problems and solutions, but sympathy is not neutrality. Just the opposite.
The LA Times announced this morning that Fetterman was "recovering nicely" and quoted a couple of tame docs that he has no cognitive issues.
"Will anyone switch their vote from Fetterman to Oz because Fetterman struggled to speak in the debate last night?"
I think not. What's overwhelmingly important is which party gets the majority in the Senate, and every single Senate race could be the one that shifts the power one way or the other.
If you are a hard core partisan, that is true
If your'e a normal human being, that is not true.
Are you a PA resident who wants a PA Senator who can fight for PA?
Fetterman can't
Fetterman will, at best, be an empty suit who does whatever the Democrat leadership (that would be a Rep from CA and a Senator from NY. No love for you flyover country losers there) wants.
If that's what you want, your'e a hard core Democrat partisan
But those don't make up 50% of the vote in any US State where there's a competitive election.
So, I'm sorry Prof Althouse, but you are wrong here
Althouse writes, "...I think not."
In other words, Democrats suffer from a Hitleresque death wish amplified by stupidity.
If a Republican senatorial candidate were equally impaired, Republicans would "stoop" to electing him.
If a Republican candidate were as mentally crippled as Fetterman, he would have been driven out of the race 5 months ago
All Fetterman needed to do was not seem dangerously incompetent, and he crossed that low bar
What debate were you watching?
Did he ever once successfully string together three coherent sentences in answer to a question?
Based on Ann's belief that the only reason anyone would vote for Fetterman over Oz or vice versa is to decide which party controls the Senate, perhaps she would support replacing actual, living, human senators with something called a "Senate Proxy." Rather than elect a specific candidate, each state would vote on whether to award its proxy to the DNC or the RNC for the next six years.
Seriously, though, isn't it intuitively obvious that party control of the Senate is not the ONLY thing any voter considers? If that weren't true, why would campaigns bother running negative adds pointing out the opposing candidate's flaws, past transgressions, lack of qualifications, etc.? None of that would matter if every single voter ONLY cared about the "R" or "D" next to the candidate's name.
But he was also fluent enough over the course of the hour to present his Democratic vision
That's would be the "I'm pro-fracking, don't ask me to explain why I said in 2018 that I was totally against it" "Democratic vision"?
His "Democratic vision" that it was Oz who got a house for $1, not Fetterman who got that from his sister?
Even the Democrat propagandists aren't able to spin this one, why are you trying to?
Fetterman should have leaned into it and said something like "I don't talk as good as I used to. I know that. But I know how I will vote: abortion rights, no to ... ummm ... racism. I have trouble with ... my words, but my heart is strong. And I will use all the strength I still have to vote for justice."
With the innovations in AI, is it even necessary to have a human being as your Senator? Can't we just program a robot and name that robot "John Fetterman" and let the robot serve? How is that different (and worse) than electing a person knowing that the actual decisions made by the elected person will be made by the person's family and staff?
Competence, first, evokes memories of labels, judgments, and is conventionally ablephilic.
I feel like Trump expected Biden to be like Fetty in their first debate.
If a Republican senatorial candidate were equally impaired, Republicans would "stoop" to electing him.
Cite an example.
John McCain.
King of the RINOs.
Althouse: "If a Republican senatorial candidate were equally impaired, Republicans would "stoop" to electing him. Let's not pretend one side is more substantive than the other. Both are terrible."
I'm a recovered Democrat now Independent. I have to disagree. I think you are right about McCarthy and McConnell and their ilk. I believe there are several Republicans in the Senate and others who would call out the Party if they did not find an alternative. I'm thinking of Paul, Cotton, Cruz and even Romney for starters. More importantly, there are conservatives in the rank and file, particularly Christian conservatives, who would likely stay home rather than vote for a demented Biden or someone in Fetterman's condition. I don't believe that is true of Democrats.
Time and Pennsylvania will tell.
Even the strawmen erected here aren't "cruelly neutral".
A truly neutral person might admire Fetterman for going out there and letting his vulnerability show. He could have opted out, but there were risks to doing that, and he chose the active route, knowing he could be humiliated and knowing that he would be attacked for every screw-up, of which there would be many.
A truly neutral person might have said, "There are 13 million people in Pennyslvania. You couldn't have come up with better choices than these 2 clowns?"
I do agree that both parties are equally capable of dragging a candidate over the finish line. Further, I suspect some of Fetterman's money is coming from Republicans just like the Democrats donating over $50 million to some of the Republican marginal candidates to help them win their primaries against stronger Republican candidates.
Hmmm..... Perhaps a few people changed their minds. From Clay Travis:
"Betting markets were close to even in the PA senate race when tonight’s debate started. This is where they are right now. I’ve never seen line movement like this based on a single one hour debate."
Oz went up 10 cents to 63, Fetterman down 11 cents to 39.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ff9Rk3bX0AEB607?format=jpg&name=large
Looking at your link choices, I'm not sure you have seen the worst of Fetterman from last night. The man has mental problems well beyond verbal processing.
If he wins I don't expect him to serve much beyond his swearing-in.
If a Republican senatorial candidate were equally impaired, Republicans would "stoop" to electing him.
Cite an example.
John McCain.
King of the RINOs.
McCain was an asshole, but he wasn't cognitively impaired.
How can Fetterman get ANY votes?
Who, in their right mind, would vote for this guy?
As I've said before, if I were a PA Dem I'd vote for Fetterman with nary an eye-blink, just to keep the seat (and possibly the entire Senate!) out of GOP hands.
Look, he's not running for president or governor or even mayor, jobs that require much on-your-feet decision-making. All a Senator has to do is (1) Show up and (2) Vote. That's it. (And if Fetterman can't even do that, he'll be replaced by soon-to-be Dem governor Tom Shapiro. No muss, no fuss.)
Agreed Yancey. I laugh and despise this goon and Biden. It never occurs to me to feel sorry for them. They’ve always been terrible pieces of shit. Their incapacity means nothing to me. Fuck them. We’ll be better off as people when they and Hillary Clinton die.
"Prove me wrong!"
How?
I don't want Fetterman to win because I prefer a Republican in that seat.
But I also don't want a US Senator who obviously has trouble processing information and forming a response to it. Not his fault. But he can't do it. If he were a Republican I wouldn't want him to be Senator either, and if the party didn't replace him with another nominee I would abstain from voting in that race. I'm a PA resident and I don't see how it is possible, and frankly don't see why it is necessary, to separate political self-interest from simple practical considerations here. I don't want a Democrat to win, and I don't want a Senator from either party whose brain functionality has been damaged by an unfortunate, serious medical condition. That it is a Democrat with the damaged brain here is coincidence. I wish Fetterman had not had a stroke. I wish his brain had not been damaged by it. I wish he loses 13 days from now and I would wish that regardless of his physical condition.
Ann Althouse said...
"I don't think anyone actually disagrees with me. The majority in the Senate is more important than the fact that the ONE person who gives YOUR party the majority is nothing but a seat held by your party. If you're acting like you're disagreeing with me, I think it's because you want the GOP to have the majority. That is, you're part of the chitter-chatter that is about like listening to the newest pop song."
That begs the question of whether party politics or competence is more important. To partisans, it's the former; to people who care about all the issues (not just one or two), it's the latter. It may seem like a one-issue election - i.e., abortion - but factoring in crime, the economy, and the possibility of inbound nukes, could make former partisans cross party lines. I guess we'll see.
Blogger Gunner said...I feel like Trump expected Biden to be like Fetty in their first debate.
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Once Biden was (s)elected in Primary, the Team Juicer was assembled.
SCIENCE!
"All Fetterman needed to do was not seem dangerously incompetent, and he crossed that low bar."
I didn't watch the debate, but when a candidate's opening line is, "Hello. Goodnight, everybody," I'm not sure how much more incompetent - dangerous or not - one can be.
I personally don’t think America is doomed. I am not one of the people who thinks that America will end as we know it if we walk away from Putin’s mess in Ukraine without triggering WW3. It will be more like losing a football game for us, and we should not be getting our kicks sending Ukrainians to slaughter, even if we feel that we owe it to them.
In desperation, watch for the January 6 committee to subpoena Dr. Oz in the next few days or the FBI to open an investigation (I kid).
Garland is spying on parents going to school board meetings. When he is not to busy, sending swat teams after Christians arresting then, in their homes for demonstrating in front of Abortion clinics.
With the left, nothing is too absurd to think it will not actually take place.
There's a lot of horse trading that goes on in the Senate. Something along the lines of "you vote for this bill and we'll see your district gets some goodies". Buying votes. You want to get the highest price possible for your vote. While national issues are center stage, your Congressfolk are there to represent their voters first and foremost. With that in mind who is most likely to bargain the best price? I don't foresee Fetterman negotiating very well.
I think that of whatever party it would be useful to be represented by a Senator who chould understand what is being said and being able to respond in complete grammatically correct sentences
On Nov. 9 the DOW will go nuts. 33,000.
If nothing else vote for your retirement savings.
And a republican congress just might stave off a nuclear war.
Yancey Ward said...
And, what is that thing on his neck? Looks like a big alien slug has burrowed inside.
***********
My best guess: it's an undigested Egg McMuffin that got lodged in the back of his throat.
Prove me wrong!
Jim at said...
"All Fetterman needed to do was not seem dangerously incompetent, and he crossed that low bar."
I didn't watch the debate, but when a candidate's opening line is, "Hello. Goodnight, everybody," I'm not sure how much more incompetent - dangerous or not - one can be.
**********
That opener immediately reminded me of a Groucho Marx line:
"Hello! I must be going!"
McCain was an asshole, but he wasn't cognitively impaired.
The guy who crashed three Navy planes and was kept on because Daddy and Grandpa were Admirals?
I don’t like having Biden run by hidden forces, and I wouldn’t like my US Senator in the same boat. Acquiescing to this norm is a threat to democracy. Truth.
We have a president who is clearly not in charge of the White House. John Fetterman has clearly not been running his own campaign. Whether it's his wife or campaign staff, they will still be making the decisions if he manages to get elected.
John McCain.
King of the RINOs.
McCain was an asshole, but he wasn't cognitively impaired.
Ahh yes. Who can forget John McCain, Liz Cheney's role model. They both never saw a war they didn't love.
....but he wasn't cognitively impaired. I think there would be some who would slightly disagree with that.
"I don't think anyone actually disagrees with me. The majority in the Senate is more important than the fact that the ONE person who gives YOUR party the majority is nothing but a seat held by your party."
Therefore, the best Democratic Party Senate and House ticket is to run 535 people who have had a frontal lobotomy. Then the "true" Democrat leaders can depend on them to vote the right way, get their wives and husbands to control their votes for a payoff (emotional or monetary.)
Then the real party leaders won't have to worry about people like Manchin messing with them. Representatives are not supposed to be interested in the issues of their local constituents, rather the interests of the "leaders." Right?
The American People don't have varied regional interests do they? their interests are only this way / that way.
(Eaglebeak)
What's so great about being truly neutral?
"All Fetterman needed to do was not seem dangerously incompetent, and he crossed that low bar." Respectfully, I think you have lost your mind. He can't even drive a car.
"world's greatest deliberative body"
I think we can dispense with that notion now.
I am enjoying the lefties who prior have pushed "Ebonics" as a dialect hammering Walker for language.
If only he referred to bitches and hoes, you would give him respect.
Senators were meant to be able to for the interests of their respective States. As an advocate Fetterman appears to be useless; someday he may get to something like a full recovery, but that's a wish, not a certainty. What is certain is that Fetterman in his current condition would be wheeled in to vote "Yea" on anything Chuck Shumer wants and "Nay" on anything he doesn't. All this talk of Oz not being really Pennsylvanian sounds like the crap it is if PA Democrats elect (effectively) an extra Senator from New York.
Walker should run an add with his grin smack dab between two voluminous twerking asses.
Wahat say you, 'burby wine gals?
I imagine a visual from an old black and white political drama. In a public appearance the party huckster announces “it’s election time! Let’s bring out our candidate Dumb Joe, he always votes the right way! Rattle of chains as dumb Joe is brought on stage. There he is! A credit to his party! Vote for him! Now take him away guys.”
I guess the question I have on "Fetterman's" debate performance for you is that as long as "Fetterman" has a heart beat vote for him? Then why didn't you just come out and state what's the point of debates?
Basic question asked by Althouse — will Fetterman’s performance in the debate (demonstrating that he’s not mentally all there) change any votes from Fetterman to Oz? Well, it would be amazing if it didn’t. More likely there will be people who had planning to vote for Fetterman (or at least thinking about it) who will leave that part of their ballots blank. The latest Rasmussen poll found 6% still undecided. Hopefully a bunch of them will decide to vote for the guy who is not brain-damaged.
Assertion by Althouse — “Yes, I think if he were minimally sentient but would vote reliably as told, those who want Democratic Party control of the Senate will still vote for him.” And I have to agree. In 2020 James (“the Talking Skull”) Carville was pretty explicit about the only important thing for the Democrats was acquiring power. Power to do what, exactly? Certainly not to improve the lives of ordinary citizens! I imagine that there are plenty of Democrat politicians, hangers on, and billionaire donors to Democrat campaigns who are amassing wealth through graft and corruption, but the vast majority — well above 90% — of the population are much worse off now than they were in 2019. Democrats do not care who they hurt, as long as they get power to abuse people.
Assertion by Althouse — Republicans would vote for a brain-damaged senatorial candidate if it meant control of the Senate. Well, yeah, this happened in 1856 when Charles Sumner was returned to the Senate despite the fact that he was recuperating from serious head injuries inflected by Democrat Preston Brooks, who attacked Sumner with a heavy, metal-tipped came on the floor of the Senate. (Political violence by Democrats is not at all a new!). Of course (1) Sumner was elected by the Massachusetts state legislature since the 17th Amendment would not take effect until 1913, and (2) the point was to use his empty desk to shame Democrats (as if Democrats had any sense of shame even then).
Assertion by Althouse — “Let's not pretend one side is more substantive than the other. Both are terrible.” And if Althouse truly believes that then Meade needs to get her out of the Madison bubble and move somewhere where she is forced to meet real human beings and not Democrat/Progressive caricatures of human beings. Yes, I get that living in high tax Madison probably meant that eliminating the SALT deduction probably hit you hard in the wallet, madam (though why you should expect people living in areas with sensible tax policies to subsidize your life in cloud cuckoo land I cannot fathom), and as a feminist in good standing you surely deplore Dobbs. Still, you have no sympathy in your heart for people at the bottom of the economic scale, the sort of ordinary folks who fix cars or repair plumbing or go out in the middle of serious storms to restore downed power lines? You don’t care about the education of children? For shame.
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