"Some musicians,
rehearsing. A courier there to deliver a parcel. A man from a Moscow
service agency, very drunk, in his mid-50s, with a walking disability. 'I have no idea why they took him,' said Alexei, who, like dozens of
others in the office complex, was rounded up and taken to the nearest
military enlistment office, part of a harsh new phase in the Russian
drive.
In cities and towns across Russia, men of fighting age are going into
hiding to avoid the officials who are seizing them and sending them to
fight in Ukraine.
Police and military press-gangs in recent days have snatched men off the
streets and outside Metro stations. They’ve lurked in apartment
building lobbies to hand out military summonses. They’ve raided office
blocks and hostels. They’ve invaded cafes and restaurants, blocking the
exits.... It is terrifying — and, at times, comically haphazard.... As
the backlash intensifies, some Russians are confronting authorities and
recording videos.... A Russian truck driver posted video of
himself confronting a police officer and a military enlistment official
who tried to take him to the enlistment office. 'I don’t give a s--- about your mobilization. You’re the one who is
eligible, not me. You’ve got a gun after all, not me. Why don’t you go
mobilize yourself?' "
From "Russia is grabbing men off the street to fight in Ukraine" (WaPo).
Here's a quote from a 24-year-old man named Yevgeny, who has "quit his job as a mechanic and is hiding at a relative’s dacha far from Moscow": "I don’t want to kill people, and I don’t want to be killed, so I really have to lie low now... But even here, I don’t feel safe. We live at a time when your neighbors could report on you. They might call police and say that there is a young guy staying in this house when he should be fighting fascists in Ukraine.... I have a couple of friends who supported the war believing that there are Nazis there who kill poor Ukrainians and that Ukrainians should be liberated and so on. But they are changing their opinions after mobilization. They have started to ask questions and surf the internet for information.... They don’t want to die, especially when you don’t understand why you should die. What is the point?"
Posts
78 comments:
We KNOW this is happening, because the WaPoo is telling us; and They, NEVER lie or slant
It's a Russian tradition. Not a step backwards. Our population is bigger than yours.
My German ancestors left Russia for the same reason. They immigrated to the area under Katherine the Great, who promised no military conscription would be required of the immigrants. Subsequent leaders had a different view. But at least I get to say I had a great grandfather named Valentine Kloster that guarded the construction of the Siberian Express.
The Russians, like the English and the Germans, lost too many men in WW2.
I'm watching an NFL football game right now, and I totally love all of the diversity in commercials that makes me a better American citizen who knows what to feel and to think. This newspaper story isn't propaganda at all. WAPO would never lie about what is happening in Moscow.
Is Yevgeny real or an imagined person that the journalist made up to fill out the story. How did the reporter find this man if he is hiding? What benefit does the man have telli g his story to a WaPo American journalist?
“Go mobilize yourself” is a great new way to tell someone off. LOL.
Looks like the bureaucracy has been given quotas to fulfill by Putin and they don't care about how it's done, as long as it's done.
I'm sorry I don't believe any of this. This is what it's come to. I have no idea who is telling the truth. Our own government lies to our face, the corrupt Ukrainian govt. lies repeatedly as does Putin. The NYT and Washpo are only stenographers for the paid liars in our intelligence agencies. Articles like this have been coming out for months telling us anything from Putin dying of cancer to a Ukrainian battlefield "miracles". Its all crap.
Wait until the war with NATO goes hot and the US has to institute a draft because nobody wants to serve in our military. Google "recruiting crisis." Same thing happening in Canada. There is a small cabal that profits from war, and nobody wants to fight for it on either side beyond those men who enjoy war, and many of these men do exist.
Press gangs. I think we got rid of them around 1812 or so.
Will there be enough civilians left to keep things running? Or is it really true that most of what people do today is just "bullshit jobs"?
WaPo, maybe... demos-cracy is aborted at the twilight fringe.
Meanwhile, native and indigenous Ukrainians are facing torture and abortion in progress for daring to deny the legitimacy of the Western-backed coup with social justification and without cause.
This reminds me of that scene in Mutiny on the Bounty (1935) about the Press Gang raiding the tavern for men to make into conscripted sailors for the Bounty.
Welcome to 18th century measures by an alleged near-peer of the West. And this against Ukraine, not China nor France.
Doubt this will end well for Russia no matter how the fighting goes.
"Wait until the war with NATO goes hot and the US has to institute a draft because nobody wants to serve in our military."
If the Russian military has proven anything it's that they wouldn't last a week in a real war with NATO.
If only it were possible to believe anything in WaPoo.
I kinda hope this story is true.
If it is true then Putin will be out of power within a year.
It is a story in the WAPO.
I don't think this story is true.
Anything you read about the Ukraine war in the Washington Post should be taken with a mine of salt.
I read about British press gangs in Horatio Hornblower and Jack Aubrey novels. One point emphasized in both was that the already-serving sailors of the press gang thought it just and proper that others should be swept up for forced Naval service, just like they had been.
I wonder if the conscripts doing the military press gangs in Russia have a similar attitude towards their work and their victims. They are, every one, good enough men to stop a bullet, I suppose.
I do not believe this story. I do not believe that men are being seized randomly off the streets to fight in Ukraine. This depiction of the situation is preposterous.
Even trannies?
Gk1 said...
"I'm sorry I don't believe any of this. This is what it's come to. I have no idea who is telling the truth..."
Look at the picture in the link below, particularly the age and condition of these conscripts. The internet is full of examples of the results of the mobilization. Not one but many independent sources. Many of the conscripts are being sent home dead within 10 days of mobilization. The only benefit to Russia is that pension payments will be reduced.
https://twitter.com/biannagolodryga/status/1581745161083592706?s=20&t=Ixu6i18PWnSx20nm6Lwc2w
Shanghaied!!!
Next will be Penal Battalions and ancillary rearguard blocking troops!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shtrafbat
Welcome to Stalinstan!
Gee we have quite a few Russian NHL players, all within the age of military service, enjoying the fruits of capitalism in the US. All physically fit, save the usual collection of stitches. The Vlad could put out a call to these athletes to come home and fight for Mother Russia. Putin's problem is they would probably tell him to get lost or worse.
Those Russians longed for the glory days of the Soviet Union and their myth of being the great vanquishers of the Nazis and thus saviors of the world. Well, now they got it. And Uncle Joe Putin is going send them all into the meat grinder of death in Ukraine. If the New Soviets can't prevail over the inferior subhumans in Ukraine, Putin reasons, then they deserve to be slaughtered.
The war has reached the stage of Soviet Russia national suicide.
The British Navy was notorious for snatching drunken men off the streets of Britain's cities and impressing them into service. And did it even if not drunk.
https://www.parliament.uk/about/living-heritage/transformingsociety/private-lives/yourcountry/overview/pressgangs-/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impressment
Sounds like the Garland Archipelago where a guy was sentenced for "parading" the other day. Of course he was a Trump voter.
Whether the press gangs are real or not, what seems indisputable is that new recruits — draftees, enlisted, or pressed into service, it doesn’t matter — are being sent into combat with inadequate training. I thought that the ten weeks of Basic Combat Training we received when I was a draftee in 1969 was barely adequate for us to be decent cannon fodder. These guys apparently don’t receive ten days.
"rhhardin said...
It's a Russian tradition. Not a step backwards. Our population is bigger than yours."
The fact is that the Russians simply can't quickly ramp up the numbers in their Army as the Soviets could but most people don't realize that things have changed since the enormous Red Army crushed Hitler in the East and terrorized post-war Europe. Russia's population is now much smaller than ours - 147 million to 334 million whereas during WW II the Soviet Union had a larger population than the US - 197 million to 135 million. And after the war ended the Soviets kept the Red Army mobilized while the US and its allies mostly demobilized so that for the whole post war period the Red Army was huge compared with the US and NATO. The Soviets maintained that edge by maintaining nation-wide two-year conscription until 2008 while all other armies including the US after Viet Nam and the NATO allies went to small professional volunteer armies. In 2008 Putin changed the Russian Army to a largely volunteer force augmented by a small group of conscripts trained for only one year. The consequence of demographic change and of the change in Army organization is that the Russians can't quickly ramp up their numbers.
Essentially, the Russians were trying to rebuild the Czarist/Soviet Empire with a smaller, unmotivated Army; and they are now being opposed by a motivated, national Army which at the points of contact is almost large as their own, is better motivated, and is armed with new weapons and tactics. So the Russians have had 60,000 soldiers of their most combat ready soldiers removed from the battlefield by death serious injury, desertion or captivity. They are trying to get their numbers up by grabbing people off the streets and this press-ganging is being captured by social media - the first good thing Twitter has done in a long time. And how well are those "mobiks", as the Russians call them, going to fight in the Ukraine when they arrive there in ten days time? And so, slowly, in various ways, including watching the press-gang mobilization on social media, the West is realizing that it ain't your Grandad's Red Army attacking in the Ukraine. The Ukraine could win; it could be free.
Whether the press gangs are real or not, what seems indisputable is that new recruits — draftees, enlisted, or pressed into service, it doesn’t matter — are being sent into combat with inadequate training. I thought that the ten weeks of Basic Combat Training we received when I was a draftee in 1969 was barely adequate for us to be decent cannon fodder. These guys apparently don’t receive ten days.
For those who don’t believe that they are being grabbed off the streets
https://twitter.com/morphiaz/status/1581756516243472384?s=46&t=a5Mqij-WQDZcG7vc5De46Q
"If the Russian military has proven anything it's that they wouldn't last a week in a real war with NATO."
LOL, one of the classic blunders.
Is it plausible? I think so. Is it happening? Don’t really have the foggiest idea.
We have a lot of evidence that the Russians aren’t doing well fighting this war. They don’t really have much in the way of an effective NCO corps, so their officers have to do the jobs that our NCOs do. There is apparently a lot of micromanagement as a result, ending is limited operational flexibility. One big difference with the Great War, is that a lot of the young people do know what is going on, and, as a result, know that their chances at surviving are not good. Something called the Internet, intentionally made difficult to shutdown by its DARPA creators. The Soviets beat the Germans by being willing to throw unlimited numbers of its people against them. That should still be an advantage for the Russians here - except that no one knowing their fate, willingly signs up for that. At least not if their leadership can’t sell their people in there being an existential threat (like Germany in WW II). I think everyone understands that this is due to adventurism on the part of Putin and his inner circle. Russia is the aggressor here, and that doesn’t cause a lot of people to sign up to die needlessly.
Mike Sylwester
The site, Institute for the Study of War, has daily updates on Ukraine. Since September 24 they have been including foot-noted accounts of the progress of the mobilization which started on that day. The foot notes come from Twitter and Telegram and Google translate works on highlighted text from them. The site is run by neo-cons.
https://www.understandingwar.org/
"Ukraine could win; it could be free."
LOL. Why did the Ukrainians have to send an army to fight for eight years to establish control over a Russian speaking enclave that plainly didn't want them there, and still not succeed? To "bring freedom" to Donbas?
this is so idiotic. Russia has a conscription for men ages 18-27. They are drafting an additional 300,000 men. THeir population is 145 million. There are probably 16 million men of military age, and only 1 million are in the armed forces. God knows how many men ages 28-37 have military training and are available to fight.
IOW, the number in armed forces is going from 1 million to 1.3 million, out of 8 million men 18-27 available. Of course, large numbers are OVER age 27. By Comparison, the USA in 1968, had 3.5 million in the armed forces out of 14 million ages 18-26.
In WW II, almost 70 percent of USA men 18-29 were in the military. The Russians are currently at about 15 percent.
Big Mike said...
I thought that the ten weeks of Basic Combat Training we received when I was a draftee in 1969
you didn't get Advanced Training after Basic? Really? i guess that explains why we lost
"this is so idiotic." Like many comments here.
This is the 21st Century guys, when the average schlub in all Western and Westernish countries has been educated (often by people like me) to understand that most wars are stupid and many are unjustified.
That Russian men are avoiding the recruiters should surprise no one except those who haven't kept up with modern developments. The Russian military bureaucracy, never the most efficient, has choked on its tasks since the beginning, and they can neither train, equip, or deliver to the front large numbers anytime soon if ever.
If any part of the Russian armed forces had operated with even minimal efficiency, neither threatening to use nukes nor press-gang conscription would be necessary now.
In that sense, the Antiwar Movement of old is irrelevant--fewer and fewer fall for the rah-rah despite the best efforts of tim in vermont and a few other righteous enthusiasts.
Of course, many Uke men are dodging too . . . it's a matter of percentages and proportions,
which will be affected by the realities on the ground. Success is a great recruiter; failure not so much.
These are the actions of a man idolized by the conservative right. Never forget that.
"Oh yea For those who don’t believe that they are being grabbed off the streets"
Oh im totally convinced now you sent twitter links! Well that settles that. Everything in the washpo article is true also Putin's cancer. Phew wotta relief.
All we need to do is keep shoveling 200-400 billion down the ukrainian rat hole and final victory will be ours. Huzzah!
In Europe and America there's a growing feeling of hysteria
Conditioned to respond to all the threats
In the rhetorical speeches of the Soviets
Mister Krushchev said, "We will bury you"
I don't subscribe to this point of view
It'd be such an ignorant thing to do
If the Russians love their children too
-- Sting
This is no way to constitute an army. Will they have blocking battalions to shoot those who retreat?
Of course, Gen. Milley and his woke crew of political senior officers are setting up the US Army for continued recruiting failure. If Team Biden stays in office, the draft will be coming back.
Trans-men and-women to the front!
Yevgeny has found the lying low sweet spot - the Russian army can't find him but a reporter can.
"Ukraine could win; it could be free."
Some people did not learn a single thing from our 20 years in Afghanistan and Iraq.
They are lying to you, folks. The Russian aggression was appalling, but at this point our dollars (and soon, our soldiers' and operators' lives) are going to weaken Russia. Our positions and actions have virtually nothing to do with Ukraine. And at the end, we are going to leave the Ukrainians empty-handed, too.
Didn't we just see that in Afghanistan? And how about Vietnam? And Obama didn't even let the dust settle in Iraq before he pulled out. And Syria? How is that going? And apparently Team Biden/Obama thinks that Iran is Da Bomb--or at least they don't care if Iran gets the Bomb.
Our foreign policy is a mess, and some extremely misguided people are running it. The US Security State: there is nothing they can't make worse.
Institute for the Study of War is a propaganda player in this war.
Some of the mobiks are unhappy.
Big Mike. I went to Basic in Feb 69, Ft Dix. Basic was to teach you how to be in the Army, from pay to uniforms to marching, and make you into at least a passable Infantry replacement. After which I went to AIT (11B). Total was seventeen weeks, iirc, not counting some admin and in-processing time. So I was a light weapons Infantryman.
If, instead of a combat arm after Basic, you go to Finance school where you learn to screw up allotments, nobody's going to want you to fill in a slot in a rifle squad before an assault. But the point is, you'd be relatively okay in a fixed, defensive position, as opposed to having nobody.
>>The British Navy was notorious for snatching drunken men off the streets of Britain's cities and impressing them into service.
The British Navy was notorious for snatching American sailors off of American ships and impressing them into service.
We had a lively discussion on this topic in 1812.
Oh Yea at 4:06 PM
Look at the picture in the link below, particularly the age and condition of these conscripts.
That picture does not prove anything to me about this issue.
wildswan at 5:05 PM
The site, Institute for the Study of War, has daily updates on Ukraine.
Link me to the specific article that is relevant to the allegation that men are being seized randomly on the streets to fight in Ukraine.
The good news, if this story is true, Putin apparently isn't ready to give up the conventional fight and start slinging nukes just yet...so there's that.
Mike, there are hundreds of pictures and videos out there, cell phones and surveillance cameras are everywhere, all you need to do is look to find them. Want to get a tour a Russian training facility? No problem, just bring tampons to plug bullet holes (true advice). The main bias I see is that Ukrainian casualties are rarely shown at the pages I visit.
"These are the actions of a man idolized by the conservative right. Never forget that."
Forget it? I don't even know what you are talking about, Pudd'n Head.
Military history is chockful of instances of men being snatched from farm and factory in a national emergency, given a few days (maybe) training, some weapons and ammo (maybe) and put into the line.
I've read accounts of doughboys in WWI who spent their first month in the army on a boat to France, without a lick of training. It wasn't common, but it also wasn't unknown. (This at the time when a division's worth of Marines was scattered guarding dockyards, IIRC.)
In the next war, the rifleman crisis of late 1944 caused the commitment to the infantry of a lot of basic-trained guys assigned to study high-tech fields on college campuses on the basis of . . . ta-da! IQ tests.
The Soviet and post-Soviet experiences have taught Russians a lot. First, the authorities lie. Second, they also steal. Third, they also steal and lie.
As for the 'mystery' that a deserter or dodger can be found by a journalist but not by the goons, get real. What's hard to believe about a situation in which a person very much wants to talk to someone and very much doesn't want to talk to someone else?
None of which proves anything, but sometimes skepticism veers off into obscurantism. Ockham's tool suggests that there are a lot of stories about Russian discontent and reluctance because there is a lot of Russian discontent and reluctance.
It is Russia, after all.
The shilling for Putin on this thread is amazing. This war is so popular in Russia that apparently they aren't getting any volunteers. So popular that Putin needs to use mercenary troops who are recruiting from prisons. The Russian Army is so competent that a war that was supposed to last one week in now in its eighth month with the Russians retreating. Rcocean writes how large the pool of military trained men is yet the Russians are dragooning men of the street who are physically unfit,over aged and untrained. The war is so popular in Russia that hundred of thousand of military aged men have fled the country. You guys have done the unbelievable; you made hdpuding seem sane in this thread.
I forgot to say that most of the US personnel deployed to Afghanistan and Iraq had many months if not more than a year of training.
That's a rich and remote country's prerogative, not available to everyone.
A tender moment at war.
Big Mike said...
Whether the press gangs are real or not, what seems indisputable is that new recruits — draftees, enlisted, or pressed into service, it doesn’t matter — are being sent into combat with inadequate training. I thought that the ten weeks of Basic Combat Training we received when I was a draftee in 1969 was barely adequate for us to be decent cannon fodder. These guys apparently don’t receive ten days.
**********
Your comment would have a lot more force if you told us how many of those drafted in 1969 died in combat. do you have that info?
But I agree: ten days training for a modern war is a complete joke.
hpudding: "These are the actions of a man idolized by the conservative right. Never forget that."
These are the actions of a man whose friends have sent hundreds of millions to his key New Soviet Democratical party allies, including $150M to the Clinton Foundation (after Hillary sold off a big chunk of US uranium production (under Bob Mueller's very helpfulbwatch) as well as $3M from the Moscow Mayor's wife directly into crackhead/trafficked underage prostitutes fanboy Hunter's and The Big Guy's bank account.
This is also the guy (Putin) who happily took Crimea under hussein obamba's tenure and then waited for Sleepy Joe to be installed to take another chunk of Ukraine.
This is also the guy (Putin) that has benefited "bigly" first from obambi's energy policies and then Sleepy Joe's death squeeze on US production.
In fact, Biden's Earpiece and his democratical pals are directly responsible for financing Putin's entire endeavor in Ukraine.
And all that before we factor in Biden's insane financial support to the mad mullahs of Iran, much of which also ends up in Putin's pockets AND financed delivery of Iranian drones being used against Ukrainian forces as we speak.
Never forget any of that.
"hpudding said...
These are the actions of a man idolized by the conservative right. Never forget that."
Name one conservative that idolizes Putin, you imbecile. Putin had plenty of friends in Obama's White House, though. Or, was that reset button all a fantasy? God, you must have to be incredibly ignorant to be a liberal.
Your comment would have a lot more force if you told us how many of those drafted in 1969 died in combat. do you have that info?
Don’t know, and not interested enough to do the research. Note that most of the soldiers intended to be combat troops went to Advanced Infantry Training at Fort Polk. My point is that there had been a lot to learn before one can be an effective combat soldier in Vietnam, and in fifty years the battlefield has gotten more complex, not less.
My JROTC battalion (two years mandatory, 68-70, with a third optional) was probably better prepared for battle than some of the PBI in the Russian army right now, and a lot of the guys had real weapons at home and had used them since childhood . . .
The defensive has proven the stronger form of war again, but now the Ukes face their own limitations and perhaps approach their own culminating point of the offensive. At any rate and IMO politics in Russia will probably matter more than what happens on the ground for a while (to the extent the two can be separated of course, and the same applies to all the parties to some extent).
A resounding defeat of the Ds in a few weeks might open up enough space for some of the brighter critters of both parties here to orient toward a settlement over the winter, but then again I'm ever the optimist.
For all those saying they can't believe the WP stories about press gangs, I remind you what I've told you before: it's very easy to find out what's going on in Ukraine if you want to, and you don't need the MSM. Two particularly useful Twitter feeds translate actual Russian broadcast media and social media. Both give audio or video, plus the printed Russian transcripts, along with the English translations, so you can use Google Translate to check up on them if you don't trust them.
One I've recommended before is @wartranslated, an Estonian living in London: 'chuck' links to a particular juicy bit at 7:43pm, but there are plenty more. It's mostly worm's-eye view from social media. The other is @JuliaDavisNews, Russian Media Monitor (motto: "I watch Russian state TV, so you don't have to"), translating Russian TV news and talk shows. Russian state propagandists openly talk about grabbing men out of nightclubs as a good thing, and about the overabundance of alcoholics they've drafted, and lots more.
In short, anyone who doesn't know that the Russians are grabbing men off the street and shoving them into battle with little or no training, often to be killed or captured in a week or two, is practicing what Thomas Aquinas calls 'crass ignorance': when you don't know something because you've intentionally made sure not to know.
As for 'tim in vermont', I'm still waiting for him to answer my question: who told him Article 16 of the Ukrainian constitution was about racial purity? That was a bald-faced lie, and I'd like to know whose lies he so eagerly repeats, i.e. where he gets his lying talking points, and what steps he's taking to get more accurate information in the future. It's a fair question, and he needs to answer it.
I don’t know much at all about what’s going on in Russia, but:
1. Russian tech engineers started leaving the country months ago. Many showed up in Turkey and were interviewed on tv blaming threat of war service.
2. Putin announced to the world press that he was going to conscript 300,000 men, very credible reporting.
3. Reports in Russian cities claim that people are being conscripted. May be fake, don’t know.
Analysis: Many Russian men have fled the country to avoid war service. It is National policy to conscript them. It is doubtful men would flee home at this time unless they were under threat of conscription. We don’t know how they are physically being conscripted, but they very likely are.
"For anyone who needs to read it (again) today: you can be anti-war without being pro-Putin. As a matter of fact you kind of (totally) can’t be anti-war and pro-Putin. Lol…this needs to be said?"~ Trisha Butler
cubanbob said: "The shilling for Putin on this thread is amazing."
Comments like this frustrate me. Why are we involved in Europe's problem? Why are sending billions $ of our resources overseas when we are broke? Why aren't we brokering a peace deal?
Why did Biden provoke Putin by dangling NATO membership to the Ukes? He knew, or should have known that was a red line. It is a given we have troops in Ukraine. Is that what we want? Is not wanting a nuclear conflagration shilling for The Vlad?
Cubanbob, how do you see this coming to a conclusion?
The important story is Belarus. Russia attacking through Belarus or worse, in conjunction with Belarus, changes this war. The Belarus government is frantically trying to support Russia while placating its citizens who do not want involvement in Russian affairs.
A second front through Belarus would be devastating to Ukraine. It would also put us one step closer to NATO involvement.
And just in time for the midterms.
This sort of story has brought the LaRouchites out of the woodwork.
They just qualified a Senate candidate to run against Schumer, a very impressive feat of third-party political organizing. Her platform is to unite with Russia and China to destroy Wall Street and grow everyone's internal Beethoven.
You have to hand it to them, communist cult-wise. They still dress like they're members of a recorder quartet in 1974. They still praise the Tennessee Valley Authority as America's greatest achievement. They still think Mother Russia is a communist paradise. And they still confuse the hell out of everyone in politics.
Hasty Pudding: you seem more Skull and Bones to me.
Jefferson's Revenge (6:52am):
I wouldn't worry about the Belarusian front in Ukraine. I found this short Twitter thread totally convincing: link. In brief, the terrain ensures that the Belarusian army would be slaughtered with ease by Ukrainian territorial troops, which means that there's a good chance the Belarusian army would turn on Lukashenko if he ordered them to invade.
Stop provoking Lukashenko!
Humperdink said...
cubanbob said: "The shilling for Putin on this thread is amazing."
Comments like this frustrate me. Why are we involved in Europe's problem? Why are sending billions $ of our resources overseas when we are broke? Why aren't we brokering a peace deal?
Well
1: the only possibly even remotely acceptable peace deal is "Russia gets completely out of Ukraine. Because any other deal rewards Putin for attacking Ukraine.
Which means it's a "war deal", guaranteeing that Putin will attack again, and again, until he gets all that he wants
The relevant "peace deal" is the 1994 Budapest Accords, where Ukraine gave up their nukes, and Russia gave up any claim to territory inside Ukraine.
If that deal doesn't matter, then neither does any other deal
2: Why're we involved? Because Putin is America's enemy. And intelligent people stop their enemies from getting more powerful
Why did Biden provoke Putin by dangling NATO membership to the Ukes? He knew, or should have known that was a red line. It is a given we have troops in Ukraine. Is that what we want? Is not wanting a nuclear conflagration shilling for The Vlad?
1: Arguing that "the existence of Russian nukes means Russia should be able to conquer every country in the general vicinity" is indeed "shilling for The Vlad"
2: Arguing that the existence of Russian nukes means we should let Russia win in Ukraine is the same as the above, so is also "shilling for The Vlad"
3: Ukraine joining NATO is only a "red line for Putin" to the extent that Putin's intent is to conquer all of Ukraine, and he feared that Ukraine in NATO would mean he couldn't re-enslave them and re-start the Holodomor
If you think we should "respect" that desire, you are most certainly "shilling for The Vlad", and a complete and utter monster
4: Biden* was on record saying the US wouldn't object to a Russian "minor incursion" into Ukraine. So Putin tried for a decapitation strike to take over the whole country.
Stop denying Putin agency. News flash: the whole world does not consist of puppets of the people you care about. People have their own interests and desires
Putin's interest and desire is for Russia to conquer and enslave every country around Russia until Russia faces sufficient military threat so it can't conquer anyone else.
If your'e not a total moron, you therefore want him stopped at the beginning
So, a question for the ones objecting to this story:
What do you claim the actual reality is in Moscow, and in Russia?
1: Is the Putin gov't running "press gangs"?
2: Are people flocking to serve in the Russia Army to support Putin's Great Patriotic Fight to Beat The Nazis?
What is it that you claim is happening, and what is your basis for said claim?
n.n said...
Meanwhile, native and indigenous Ukrainians are facing torture and abortion in progress for daring to deny the legitimacy of the Western-backed coup with social justification and without cause.
tim in vermont said...
"Ukraine could win; it could be free."
LOL. Why did the Ukrainians have to send an army to fight for eight years to establish control over a Russian speaking enclave that plainly didn't want them there, and still not succeed? To "bring freedom" to Donbas?
I have a comment over here:
https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=6329595&postID=991636777095911578&page=1&token=1666020724073
at 10/17/22, 10:09 AM
It discusses the actual history, as opposed to your made up history.
Feel free to respond there if you want to claim I got anything wrong.
Tim, I will note, seems to be real upset that Checkeslovakia would try to keep the Sudetenland away from Hitler, I mean that the Ukrainians would be upset at Putin invading Donbas, forcing out the actual Ukrainians, and then putting together fake "plebiscites" before annexing it, and would respond to this invasion of their country by fighting back.
Why honor a previously signed treaty (the Budapest Accords) when you think your military is big enough to let you violate it, right Tim?
Name one conservative that idolizes Putin, you imbecile.
“[Putin is] taking over a country for two dollars worth of sanctions. I’d say that’s pretty smart.”
“I think we should probably take the side of Russia, if we have to choose between Russia and Ukraine.”
“Has Putin ever called me a racist? Has he threatened to get me fired for disagreeing with him?”
“I gotta be honest with you, I don’t really care what happens to Ukraine one way or the other.”
“Every member of Conservative Inc. that backs this Ukraine war is a simp.”
“It feels as if Putin is going into places that want him. They have voted overwhelmingly to be part of it. It is a family dispute that we shouldn’t get in the midst of, that’s for certain.”
“Putin–unlike someone else we know–LOVES his country & FIGHTS for its interests”
“[Putin is] a very strong leader. He’s been in charge for a long time. And he’s not going to put up with the nonsense he’s seeing in Europe.”
“Zelensky is a globalist puppet for Soros and the Clintons.”
“I wish Putin was president of America.”
“So far, Putin hasn’t killed as many people as the Clintons.”
“I’m kind of confused why they’re telling us to stand with Ukraine when it seems that everybody affiliated or standing with Ukraine is either transgender, a Satanist, or a straight up Nazi.”
https://accountability.gop/ukraine-quotes/
Lily 2:14
"I'm watching an NFL football game right now, and I totally love all of the diversity in commercials that makes me a better American citizen who knows what to feel and to think."
Agree it's laugh-out-loud ridiculous. On the + side - if you're in the union and make a lot of 'em, it's serious bank. Make enough and SAG-AFTRA'll pay you a pension and health insurance. That's reparations, American-style.
Post a Comment