Writes David Ignatius in "How Ukrainians define their enemy: ‘It’s not Putin; it’s Russia’" (WaPo).
“Russia has to go through the same process that Germany did after World War II,” presidential adviser Mykhailo Podolyak insisted Saturday in an interview with me and the other members of a group organized by the German Marshall Fund, of which I’m a trustee.
“If Russian society doesn’t understand what they’ve done, the world will be brought into chaos.” He enthusiastically predicts that postwar Russia will dissolve into five or six smaller nations.
This Ukrainian desire for total victory... poses a painful dilemma for the Biden administration. As President Biden made clear in a May 31 essay in the New York Times, the United States seeks “a negotiated end to the conflict” in which Russia withdraws from occupied territory. Biden seeks a Ukrainian victory, but not a total Russian defeat....
Ignatius says the Ukrainians he's spoken to "unanimously rejected" a negotiated settlement. Theirs is a fight to the decisive defeat of Russia.
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103 comments:
Then: Hey Vlad, we know you’re gonna do what you’re gonna do. Cool.
Now: We gotta destroy Russia. I get 10 percent.
I doubt the aims of the Ukrainian people complicate things for Biden and the West all that much. Of course Ukrainians see the problem as being bigger than Putin. The problem is bigger than Putin. Of course they want a lasting solution to the Russian problem. Given the history, who wouldn’t? But if Ukraine pushes the Russians back to the border, the equation changes and host of new tools come available to get the Ukrainian army to stop.
Is your war against President Vladimir Putin — or against Russia itself, worth having a nuclear catastrophe over ? Nearly every time, I got the same unyielding answer.
WHY are WE starting World War Three because of the wishes of a former soviet republic?
Is THAT Really worth it?
He enthusiastically predicts that postwar Russia will dissolve into five or six smaller nations.
EACH of which will have Over a Thousand nuclear weapons for sale?
Theirs is a fight to the decisive defeat of Russia.
serious question: are They OUR proxy? or are We THEIRS?
A major reason for the US not to get involved is the desire of both sides for total defeat.
Was he allowed free access to speak to whomever he chose without a minder present?
I used to think that Ukrainians hated Russia for what Stalin did to them, but the more I learn about them, the more I think that it’s about Russia’s role in defeating Hitler.
How does anyone here think that Ukrainians will treat their ethnic Russian citizens if they achieve complete control over the borders Stalin drew?
This is an Old World blood feud and not our business.
Maybe, just maybe, the perspectives of the invaded nation matter more than what Biden supposedly wishes for….
As with the blue versus red US states, as with Canada versus the entire US, Ukraine is trying too hard to say "I'M NOT LIKE THEM." This is routine across the world as cultures diverge / evolve down separate paths.
Good luck ending Russia or splitting it apart, as it has nuclear weapons plus massive fossil fuel reserves, farmland, and forests. Ukraine and Poland suffer the same challenges and destiny: they smaller countries wedged between major powers (Germany and Russia). Poland was long known as the "doormat of Europe" because they got run over time and time again.
Ukraine comes out of this as a weakened, defensive country no matter what. Suppose Putin gives back everything and goes away...then sits on the border and creates a new cold war that isolates Ukraine economically. But that won't happen because the Crimea was part of Russia for longer than the US has existed.
There are no happy, safe, and easy solutions on the huge and competitive Eurasian landmass. There never have been easy solutions. Genghis Khan, where are you? Attila the Hun?
Russia needs to be put out of business and divided into several countries, just like the USSR was. (The problem with that is, rather than having one big country whose leader might be crazy, we'll have several little countries whose leaders might be crazy.)
I have a friend who grew up in Soviet controlled Poland. In his mind, Russians drank themselves over the centuries into being a country of psychopaths. He said Russian military strategy is simple - “we have a lot of people.” They have no moral objection to killing, lying, taking everything.
In this otherwise nice human being, there is a level of hate for Russians that is difficult to understand. But, I also didn’t live in a Soviet controlled country.
He also makes an important point about Germany. He said that the Germans since WWII have blamed Nazis for the Holocaust - as if Nazis were some other group who captured Germany. No, he says, the German people committed the Holocaust through the Nazis.
Again, I’m not sure I’m capable of agreeing or disagreeing and that’s not the point. The point is I can see in his eyes the level of distain he has for the people of these countries who occupied his home country and this war with Ukraine has done nothing to change his mind.
WaPo spoke with the half of Ukrainians not disenfranchised by the 2014 coup... democracy dies in darkness h/t WaPo... by the half not under assault for over eight years by the Kiev-military-paramilitary axis with diversity [dogma] motives... demos-cracy is aborted for social, redistributive, clinical, and fair weather causes h/t PC. That said, Russia is not South Africa, not even Libya, if the transnationalists wanted the resources, perhaps they should have asked, rather than waging social justice with "benefits" h/t Biden et al, and opening mass abortion fields to relieve "burdens" h/t Obama.
Ignatius is a longtime shill for the CIA. This is just the spooks trying to inflate the war as much as possible, thinking there's money in it for them.
Russia is conflated with Soviet in a progressive parody of a socialist past... and half of Ukrainians are labeled deplorables and disposables under Diversity [dogma], Inequity, and Exclusion (DIE) doctrine where democracy dies in darkness and demos-cracy is aborted at the twilight fringe.
Visualize The Vlad's mindset here. The goal was to start the restoration of the grand and glorious Soviet Union. Step #1 was Crimea. Vlad pressed the Easy button as Nobel Peace Prize winner was in office. The next step of annexing eastern Ukraine hasn't gone so well. Bad judgment on his part. Vlad must save face here. The US and NATO must give Putin a face saving off ramp. With none on the horizon, I expect Putin to up the ante.
As an aside, remember when Trump insisted our NATO allies pay their fare. They started to do that, then Trump was cheated out of office. Now the US is pumping billions $$ into Ukraine. The NATO allies contribution? A great mystery.
RMc said...Russia needs to be put out of business and divided into several countries, just like the USSR was.
It will more likely be absorbed into several countries. As the vast landmass continues to depopulate and the central government continues to decline, it's neighbors will start to pick pieces off of it (starting with the Chinese, who, possibly in our lifetimes, will grab a huge chunk of Eastern Russia).
I think that Ignatius, a lifetime member of the Washington swamp reporting team, actually has this correct. We keep flooding Ukraine with money and arms. The entire Nato alliance does this with the incorrect expectation that Ukraine thinks like we think. That they see what we see from our comfy living rooms in the West. That their lives will feel safe again once Putin promises to be a good boy.
Russia and Ukraine have a very tough history. Ukrainians are not about to just forget it. And Russians have only recently started to understand what's going on in Ukraine. Until the mass draft, most Russians were being fed what the Government wanted them to know (we know what that's like here in the US).
But what Ukraine wants versus reality might be a distance too far to bridge. Putin is not going to just back down. And Russia is not going to just break up into smaller countries.
One other thing that is very, very important. Ignatius states, "This Ukrainian desire for total victory... poses a painful dilemma for the Biden administration."
The ability to walk away from a podium poses a painful dilemma for this President. Being in a world level key position to make decisions on what happens next, and to have a vision of where this is going is not in his quiver to handle. They put this guy in office, many think illegally, and now we are all stuck with this Sack O'Potatoes in a crucial geopolitical decision making position.
I have said for years that we get the leaders we deserve. In this case we got the leader 'They' felt they could manipulate most. And now 'They' are running this thing. And 'They' don't have a good track record running anything. Except maybe Adam Schiff.
Fighting their war with OUR tax dollars. We don't have a say in it.
“Visualize Vlad’s mindset…”
There is a lot of mind reading going on. Putin’s widely distorted speech was never about reconstituting the Soviet Union, which included Ukrainians, but in reconstituting the Russian nation, which does not, but does include Donbas, etc. The “great tragedy” was the division of the Russian people in the chaos that resulted from the fall of the Soviet Union and the creation of arbitrary borders, borders which were correctly predicted to make civil war inevitable. That’s only if you go by Putin’s actual words, but I am not as good at mind reading as so many of you.
“The Russian problem.”
1930s Europe called, and they want their rhetoric back.
Countries with large nuclear arsenals do not surrender and do not give up their nukes. There will be no total victory over Russia without nuclear war. It is foolish and dangerous thinking to believe that’s possible.
I think in term of probability. Even if US leadership was competent, and it’s not, the chances of successfully “defeating “ Russia without a nuclear conflict somewhere are greater than 0 and possibly below 5%.
I would not take those odds.
"Ignatius is a longtime shill for the CIA. This is just the spooks trying to inflate the war as much as possible, thinking there's money in it for them."
His father was one of the best and the brightest - Secretary of the Navy under Johnson. The father founded Harbridge House, which "...offers consulting, development and training for companies in industries, commerce and civil services in Europe," so you can see money there in the collapse of any nation. Sister is executive director of a think tank on Armenian issues.
Tim in Vermont said: "That’s only if you go by Putin’s actual words, but I am not as good at mind reading as so many of you."
One of the few times I've disagreed with you. Putin needs a get of free jail card (read: a face saving gesture). He has intimated in the past of Russian restoration and dominance. I think it extends beyond Ukraine, but I think he would settle for the eastern region. I would not bet against a guy who holds 6000 trump cards.
Tim in Vermont said: "That’s only if you go by Putin’s actual words, but I am not as good at mind reading as so many of you."
One of the few times I've disagreed with you. Putin needs a get of free jail card (read: a face saving gesture). He has intimated in the past of Russian restoration and dominance. I think it extends beyond Ukraine, but I think he would settle for the eastern region. I would not bet against a guy who holds 6000 trump cards.
A face-saving off ramp for Russia would be to get rid of Putin.
If this is about mental state, instead of a nuclear war we could settle things with a contest on live TV.
It starts with Putin and Biden in their respective living rooms. When the buzzer sounds, whoever comes back wearing his bedroom slippers first wins.
If you would rather have a nuclear war than this contest, are you rational?
When you are actually in a war, it's hard to make these distinctions. We could tell ourselves after WWII that we were at war with Hitler and the Japanese leadership and not with Germany or Japan, but that wasn't at all clear at the time.
I don't think Putin was looking to restore the Soviet Union or the Russian Empire. He might have been content with favorable governments on his borders. He obviously does want Russian-speaking parts of Ukraine, whether or not they want to be Russian or want him.
Talk of breaking up Russia looks like imperial arrogance on our part. It seems to me that we could have done more to integrate Russia into the West so that Russia wouldn't be obsessed with lost provinces much more than Germany is.
So Ukrainians are imperialists.
@TreeJoe "Maybe, just maybe, the perspectives of the invaded nation matter more than what Biden supposedly wishes for…." Of course. We should start a world war because of the perspectives of the invaded nation. That's sense.
tim in vermont said...
How does anyone here think that Ukrainians will treat their ethnic Russian citizens if they achieve complete control over the borders Stalin drew?
The Azov Battalion has killed thousands of Ukranians in eastern Ukraine since 2014.
Half of Ukraine is soviet. The other half is of a more German persuasion.
Ukraine is still fighting WW2 while we are starting WW3.
Jefferson's Revenge said...
Countries with large nuclear arsenals do not surrender and do not give up their nukes. There will be no total victory over Russia without nuclear war. It is foolish and dangerous thinking to believe that’s possible.
People need to think about this.
The muammar gaddafi videos where he was video taped beaten, raped, and drug through the streets by a mob are vivid reminders.
Putin is a monster.
Most of you people would launch nukes to avoid Gaddafi's fate.
Do you really think Putin will hold back just so you warmongers and profiteers can "support" freedom from your couch?
Paging Dr. Freud: We're all suffering from 'Mother Russia' issues?
Do you think these videos will be discussed in the NYT's?
Of course not. The NYT's does not report news. It herds sheep.
Democrats who disagree with the warmongering are being covered up as much as possible.
Left Bank said: "A face-saving off ramp for Russia would be to get rid of Putin."
And then what? Everything roses and daffodils? Allow to point out our stellar results with Libya (Khadafi) and Iraq (Saddam).
Left Bank of the Charles said...
A face-saving off ramp for Russia would be to get rid of Putin.
The only warmongers left are people stupid enough to vote for Joe Biden and keep supporting him even after this insanity.
Remember Left Bank was cheering when Biden completely botched the Afghan withdrawal and abandoned thousands of Americans there.
The millions of Afghan women had dreams of freedom too.
Democrats are just shitty people with no self awareness.
Humperdink: "As an aside, remember when Trump insisted our NATO allies pay their fare."
Careful now. Simply mentioning the fact that our NATO "allies" dont come close to meeting their obligations gets one labeled a "Putin asset" at Althouse blog by the Total War crew.
Western Ukraine is largely Catholic and speak Ukrainian. Eastern Ukraine is largely Russian Orthodox and speak Russian, i.e. "Ethnic Russians".
Western Ukraine's roots were in the Austro-Hungarian Empire. Eastern Ukraine in the Russian Empire.
These people and their territories were thrust together under the Stalin, an artificial creation of the Soviet Empire, much as the Kurds, the Sunnis and the Shia were thrust together in Iraq for the benefit of the British Empire.
"A face-saving off ramp for Russia would be to get rid of Putin."
Who's face exactly is bing saved by such an outcome?
Putin watched those Ghaddafi tapes a dozen times, reportedly.
"to preserve the gene pool of the Ukrainian people, is the duty of the State."
Article 16, Ukrainian constitution. Who slipped that one in?
It’s like there are no lessons in war.
It's easy to be big talkers when you're not having to pay the bills. Without US dollars and material, this war would have been over long ago.
If there was ever a war that should not be fought is the next one. And certainly not over the wishes of Ukraine.
The muammar gaddafi videos where he was video taped beaten, raped, and drug through the streets by a mob are vivid reminders.
And our ambassador was sacrificed for... equitable and inclusive relief under DIE doctrine. And the transnationalists cooed what a good girl am I.
To our credit, American soldiers captured and brought Hussein to trial and ended the [first] Iraq War with a personal, not proxy, or em-pathetic investment from afar.
much as the Kurds, the Sunnis and the Shia were thrust together in Iraq for the benefit of the British Empire.
And the "Palestinians" into Jordan, the second state, which progressed as a nightmare (a coup, a Spring, no less) for both groups, and a forward-looking risk for the region.
Wowee, this is a must see video. AOC is denounced in a townhall meeting by two rabble rousers asking why she is starting a nuclear war.
https://twitter.com/i/status/1580364662419312641
"This Ukrainian desire for total victory... poses a painful dilemma for the Biden administration."
Why? I wish we weren't involved at all, but if Ukraine were to push Russia out of their territory why can't we pat them on the back, say "good job", and walk away?
WHY are WE starting World War Three because of the wishes of a former soviet republic?
Is THAT Really worth it?
Exactly. This war was begun because the Biden regime needed a distraction from the economic collapse it created here. They assumed it would be short and we would not be that involved. It has become a huge drain on an economy that is already in trouble. That, of course, refers to our economy. Russia is a mystery, as usual. Don't expect the CIA to know what is going on. Too busy with US domestic terrorists at school board meetings,
Sounds like these Best & Brightest Ignatius’ Ukrainians want to invade Russia.
Good luck with that.
They don’t understand Russians.
And they don’t understand Americans.
The US government wants this war to drag on so it can launder 50% of the aid to Ukraine back to our corrupt officials.
Americans aren’t joining the military. No one wants to be killed to keep the gravy flowing to our corrupt officials.
The Americans supporting Ukraine don’t fight. They tweet.
I’m grateful for the treaty that caused Ukraine to give up their nuclear arms. Maybe if Ukraine still had nukes then Putin would not have invaded, but if Putin invaded anyway it seems clear that Zelinskii would be using them by now.
Oh, David Ignatius told some more lies? Yeah, that's how it works. Bezos holds up the little treat, and says "Tell the lies, David!" And Ignatius goes "Lie, lie, lie, lie, lie!". And then Bezos gives him the little treat.
Germany has become a shell of a country. No wonder Russia is pushing back against the aggression of the west.
'tim in vermont' has repeatedly posted things that would make Ukraine look bad if they were true, without ever providing a link, even when asked for one, for us to find out whether they were true.
Here (8:46am) he does it again, but it's quite easy to find out what Article 16 of the Ukrainian constitution says: the Wikipedia article "Constitution of Ukraine" has an "External Link" to the complete English translation. Anyone who checks will discover that his nasty insinuation that it is about racial purity is utterly false, which makes him either a liar or a fool. More on that last point at the end.
Article 16 has nothing to do with ethnicity or eugenics, or racial purity, but is in fact about ecology, and the state's duty to protect the environment, especially for humans: "To ensure ecological safety and to maintain the ecological balance on the territory of Ukraine, to overcome the consequences of the Chornobyl catastrophe - a catastrophe of global scale, and to preserve the gene pool of the Ukrainian people, is the duty of the State." Yes, the quoted words are about avoiding radiation poisoning and consequent genetic damage for all ethnic groups. Surely even the most libertarian among us can agree that that is a legitimate and very important function of government?
Article 16 is particularly important right now, when Russian soldiers are occupying the largest nuclear plant in Europe, torturing the managers, preventing UN inspectors from doing their job, repeatedly cutting off the electricity that is needed to keep the reactors safe, and storing weapons and firing artillery far too close to the buildings. Note that the Zaporizhzhia nuclear plant in Enerhodar is not in the Donbas or Crimea, so Russia has no claim whatsoever over the plant except 'right of conquest' and a blatantly fraudulent referendum a few weeks ago, that is, no right at all.
By the way, the Ukrainian constitution does have a few things to say about ethnic and language minorities. Here are the pertinent bits of Article 10: "In Ukraine, the free development, use and protection of Russian, and other languages of national minorities of Ukraine, is guaranteed. . . . The use of languages in Ukraine is guaranteed by the Constitution of Ukraine and is determined by law."
So, 'tim in vermont', we come to a very important question: Where did you get your disinformation about Article 16? Were you browsing the Ukrainian constitution looking for anything you could use to trash an entire nation? If so, how did you think you could get away with your selective quotation? Did you think no one would check?
Or did you get it from someone else? If so, from whom? You owe it to the rest of us to either (a) tell us where you got the misleading partial quotation, and why you didn't bother to check it, and to assure us you will never quote that source again, or (b) just go away and stop wasting our time with your contemptible weaselings. Your choice.
You know who really likes Putin? The Politico just named him an eco-warrior of the year for hastening the Green New Deal by Invading Ukraine. Now that's some fucked up logic and inapt praise.
No mind reading needed!
Putin watched those Ghaddafi tapes a dozen times, reportedly.
Ah the great days of our "We came we saw he's dead"* foreign policy, still paying outstanding dividends all these years later. And almost all the "brightest people in the room" then are still working the same positions under Obama Part III.
And we have an infant playing chicken with nukes who actually thinks his son died in Iraq so he has to punish Putin. God help us.
*Hillary was not fond of commas in my paraphrasation.
So - for the children - hack off that sliver of Russian-speaking eastern Ukraine and give it to Russia. Those living there who refuse to be part of Russia are given the money saved by not continuing this bloody war and relocated westward in style. Ukraine is slightly smaller but at peace and Putin saves face. Maybe toss him a Nobel Peace Prize. After all, one of those was given away for a helluva lot less.
Why? I wish we weren't involved at all, but if Ukraine were to push Russia out of their territory why can't we pat them on the back, say "good job", and walk away?
Sorry O'Mike but I edited that for concision here: Why can't we walk away?
We had no national interest in Ukraine before the war and had allowed Russia to romp to and fro for more than a decade without financing a "proxy war." Why can't we walk away now? If Europe wants to prosecute Putin and Russia then they can, and its in their interest. We are looking more and more like "police action" all over again, that thing there was a consensus about not doing after the whole indochina debacle.
Why can't we walk away?
A "transformation" of Russia triggered by military defeat is not worth the risk. After Germany defeated Russia in 1918, Russia collapsed into civil war only to emerge stronger and more aggressive under the Communists. The Kaiser abdicated in favor of a new democratic republic in 1918 but the end result of that revolution was not desirable.
Revolutions triggered by military defeat have often led to more aggressive governments with more effective militaries than the supplanted regime. Other historical examples are China after 1945, France after 1789, and Japan after 1854. Be careful what you wish for.
Maybe Ukraine's claims of eternal dominion over territories it was granted only in the past 100 years is the imperialist craziness in this equation.
Maybe things wouldn't be so "inconvenient" for Biden had he and Johnson not dropped anchors into the UKR/RUS peace negotiations at least twice so far since February, with BJ telling UKR that they should not compromise at all with RUS.
The spin that the Biden admin is pained/inconvenienced by the UKR no-compromise position is desperate at this point, aided only by our heavily curated/censored news media, as the interference with any fledgling peace entreaties over there has been widely reported throughout the world (by our allies, not only those big bad Russian bears).
We are led by literal pieces of shit.
It puts Biden in a dilemma? what nonsense.
Yeah, lets blame the Ukrainians for the lack of negotiations. LOL Zelensky would negotiate tommorrow if Biden told him to. Without the support of the USA/NATO they couldn't last a day.
This is just a defense of Biden. Don't blame him for the seemingly endless war, death, and destruction. its those "CRAZY Ukrainians" who want total victory. Joey Biden just can't reason with them!
Balony on stilts.
*Theirs* is about to be an astonishingly Russian flattening of their country. And for what, to hold on to territory they've been shelling for the past 8 years?
But Biden's neocon/neolib minders will be there til the last Ukrainian, selling 'em spendy weapons. Bravo.
It's kind of too bad; anyone who's been around knows that Ukrainian women are among the most naturally beautiful on earth. Will be a shame when they're extinct but I guess that's a small price to pay for The Big Guy's 10%.
There aren't enough lamp posts for these dickheads.
Putin watched Ghaddafi deathporn?
Says a lot about him, I think. (If true, of course. I've only seen the claim here.)
If that section is really about radiation damage to DNA, why is Ukraine shelling a nuclear power plant?
I've been watching the television series "Homeland" lately from the library on DVD. The 6th/7th season storyline is interesting. The president is very Hillary/Trump, then goes full Biden and arrests everyone like the January 6 thing - even though the show was produced/aired in 2017/18. The weird prescience of the writing is more than a bit uncanny and rather mindblowing.
There's a point in that "Homeland" show where an older RUS spy is scolding a younger, very aggressive new-generation RUS spy who tells him something to the effect of, "Your Russia was weak like Yeltsin's, when many people like my parents lost everything. This is my Russia now." Needless to say, the younger guy and his henchmen kill off the older guy, and with it the respect for protocols etc. It maps rather interestingly with an informed understanding of today's Russian polity.
And who doesn't like Claire Danes? I was sold in Terminator 3.
Anyway, can we all agree that this almost neurotic personalization of the war to "Putin" rather than Russia is a painfully ridiculous and childish western/American tic? Watch some of the Russian politicking (I recommend "Michael Rossi Poli Sci" channel on YT - good, unbiased/unedited primary material with subtitles) that's not being spun by our intel agency-led media and one can't help but notice the country seems to be pretty unified. No less so than the US has been for the past 20+ years, even before the mirror-shattering Trump years.
The fact the neocon/neolib US establishment wants another Yeltsin who's half in the bag by 10a.m. so they can enslave the country in debt and control its mineral and other resources doesn't mean that the Russians with their proud 1000 year-old history are "on our side" in that plan.
That's enough rambling for today.
If, as you point out, ethnic Russians are counted as Ukrainians, and so the purity of their DNA is also protected from harm by radiation, which is your claim, why has Ukraine’s army been shelling an NPP in the Russian speaking enclave under dispute?
When the IAEA gave its scathing report re Russian management of the plant, it offered no opinion on who was doing the shelling; odd that.
If you don’t have Google, I guess you can’t check my claims, but that’s on you. If I see a claim here I doubt, I Google it before I call BS, you can too. Nobody feeds me my opinion, if I had a good way to search comments here, I could point you to comments on Ukrainian Nazis that go back well before this conflict, not to mention my comments on Ukrainian attempts to interfere in the 2016 election on behalf of Hillary, but you can search on Black Ledger if you want, or Ukrainians meeting with Biden and the whistleblower in the White House in 2016.
I'm unclear on how the "Ukrainians are Nazis" people work around the hard fact that the Ukrainians are mostly Slavs and the Nazis considered Slavs to be subhumans who should be exterminated.
Frankly, I think they rather stupidly fell prey to media propaganda which labeled everyone not on the left as Nazis.
Wherever one stands on the righteousness of the war itself, that's simply bullshit.
"If that section is really about radiation damage to DNA, why is Ukraine shelling a nuclear power plant?" (emphasis added
Non sequitur. Tim, you got caught trying to pull a fast one. Own it.
stalin starved millions of ukrainians to death, so they will do anything to not be defeated.
'tim in vermont':
1. Answer my fucking question: who told you the Ukrainian constitution had a eugenics clause? We all deserve to know where you get your disinformational talking points.
2. Zaporizhzhia oblast, where the nuclear power plant is located, is NOT a "Russian speaking enclave under dispute": that is a bald-faced lie. It is one of the two other oblasts (not Donbass, not Crima) that Russia has no ethnic-minority claim to whatsoever, but just stole because Putin wanted a land-bridge to Crimea in case something happened to the Kerch bridge.
3. This is at least the fifth or sixth time you've alleged that the Ukrainians are shelling their own nuclear power plant. The only reason you've ever given for thinking it's not the Russians doing it is that it would be stupid for the Russians to do it, since they expect to own the place in the future. (And you continue to ignore my point that they have no claim whatsoever to Zaporizhzhia oblast, so those expectations are grossly imperialistic and Nazistic.) Of course, the Ukrainians also expect to own the place in the future, by right and by might, so it would be equally stupid for them to shell it. If we ask who (Russians or Ukrainians) is so fucking stupid that they would shell a nuclear power plant in an area they expect to occupy, and risk poisoning themselves as well as the other side for centuries, the answer is obvious: damned near everything the Russians have done in this war has been spectacularly stupid. It's obviously them doing it.
One more piece of evidence: It's also incredibly stupid to cut off the electric power to a nuclear power plant, but someone has been repeatedly doing that at Enerhodar. Of course, the Ukrainians can't do it, since they don't control the area, only the Russians can. So who has been playing 'chicken' with the electric power at a nuclear plant? The Russians, absolutely. Making it that much more obvious that they're the ones playing 'chicken' with the artillery.
Putin is a Nazi. The Ukrainians are Nazis. Has to be the STUPIDEST talking point on either side. Of course, all the dummies glum on to it, like flies on shit. I think its because no matter how dumb or ignorant you are, you can still talk about NAZIS.
I don't care if the Ukrainians are nazis or not (though I highly doubt they are). Unless said nazis were preparing to invade Russia, it does not legitimize Putin's invasion of the country next door.
you can still talk about NAZIS.
Or we could reminisce about Maoists and their progressive offshoots in one-child to selective-child, DIE doctrine, [Tibetan] immigration reform, etc.
Perhaps Mandela's Xhosa vs Zulu, Hutu vs Tutsi vs Hutu, Kenyan elite vs deplorables, Abortionists vs Fetal-Babies, Mengele-adjacent vs vulnerable boys and girls, etc. We didn't start the fire...
Putin watched Ghaddafi deathporn?
The circumstances of his capture, torture, and abortion were broadcast globally. Our ambassador, too. Alliance with America by proxy and citizenship exacts a wicked cost.
Putin prepared for the war clearly believing Ukraine would fall in a blitzkrieg. Now he is stuck in a quagmire. Too bad there is no TR to bring the Russians and their opponent to the peace table. Although that war ended just as The Japanese were about to be overwhelmed, and unsatisfactory peace led to the Revolution of 1905. From which the Government learned little or nothing.
tim in vermont said...
I used to think that Ukrainians hated Russia for what Stalin did to them, but the more I learn about them, the more I think that it’s about Russia’s role in defeating Hitler
How do you say "I am a moron" without actually saying it.
Ukrainians upset by the Holodomor? Inconceivable! They must be upset because Stalin defeated the Nazis who did their best to exterminate the Ukrainians!
How does anyone here think that Ukrainians will treat their ethnic Russian citizens if they achieve complete control over the borders Stalin drew?
Well, hopefully they will say:
You have a choice, you can become a Ukrainian, and speak and read Ukrainian, or you can leave and go back to the country you consider your own.
But, in any event, I predict the Ukrainians will not treat those people any worse than the Russian invaders treated Ukrainian civilians.
And that is the relevant baseline for comparison
This is an Old World blood feud and not our business.
Putin considers himself and Russia an enemy of the US. Until that changes, debating Putin is always our business
Rabel said...
I'm unclear on how the "Ukrainians are Nazis" people work around the hard fact that the Ukrainians are mostly Slavs and the Nazis considered Slavs to be subhumans who should be exterminated.
Frankly, I think they rather stupidly fell prey to media propaganda which labeled everyone not on the left as Nazis.
Go look up Azov Battalion.
rcocean said...
Putin is a Nazi. The Ukrainians are Nazis. Has to be the STUPIDEST talking point on either side. Of course, all the dummies glum on to it, like flies on shit. I think its because no matter how dumb or ignorant you are, you can still talk about NAZIS.
Putin is a run of the mill strong man.
Ukraine is a corrupt piggy bank vassal state of Washington DC.
Western Ukraine and Eastern Ukraine have two completely different political alignments. One party gets 90% of the vote in Eastern Ukraine and one party get ~75% of the vote in Western Ukraine.
When the Eastern Ukrainian party wins elections the US State department runs street protests and political attacks in Ukraine until the Western Ukrainian party is installed.
Temujin said...
I think that Ignatius, a lifetime member of the Washington swamp reporting team, actually has this correct. We keep flooding Ukraine with money and arms. The entire Nato alliance does this with the incorrect expectation that Ukraine thinks like we think. That they see what we see from our comfy living rooms in the West. That their lives will feel safe again once Putin promises to be a good boy.
That is something only a moron could believe.
They will feel safe again when Russia is completely kicked out of Ukraine (that means out of everything they took in 2014, including Crimea), and Ukraine is part of Nato, and thus believes that Russia won't risk attacking them again.
Russia / Putin opposes Ukraine being part of Nato for the SOLE reason that they want to keep on attacking Ukraine, and U&kraine being part of Nato makes that much more difficult.
"Ukraine must be a neutral buffer" is an argument for continual war. Because the only one in this conflict who's actually threatening the other side is Putin
But what Ukraine wants versus reality might be a distance too far to bridge. Putin is not going to just back down. And Russia is not going to just break up into smaller countries.
Putin isn't going to back down. Which is why Russia must be defeated, crushed, humiliated to the point that everyone understands that Russia has no ability the seriously threaten Ukraine.
Or else until Putin gets a 9mm retirement package
tim in vermont said...
“Visualize Vlad’s mindset…”
There is a lot of mind reading going on. Putin’s widely distorted speech was never about reconstituting the Soviet Union, which included Ukrainians, but in reconstituting the Russian nation, which does not, but does include Donbas, etc. The “great tragedy” was the division of the Russian people in the chaos that resulted from the fall of the Soviet Union and the creation of arbitrary borders, borders which were correctly predicted to make civil war inevitable.
What a load of bullshit.
Those borders weren't "arbitrary", they were the actual borders. The fact that Russia and USSR rulers moved Russian colonists into conquered areas to try to make them more "Russian" just indicates those people knew their Machiavelli.
So what?
Anyone who wants to be Russian can move back to Russia. Anyone who doesn't is a citizen of the place they're living, and neither Putin nor any other Russian ruler has any say about them.
Russia signed the Budapest Accords, agreeing to those borders in exchange for Ukraine giving up the nukes they had. there's no legitimate "backies" on that.
And there's no possible way any treaty signed by Russia can be considered valid, while they're violating the previous one.
Be it the Baltic State, Ukraine, or any other country that has the misfortune to be near Russia, the answer is the same:
Anyone living in those countries who wants to be "Russian" can move to Russia. Anyone who doesn't want to move to Russia is not a Russian, and the Russian gov't has no valid interest in them, other than in offering them a chance to move to Russia.
Humperdink said...
Tim in Vermont said: "That’s only if you go by Putin’s actual words, but I am not as good at mind reading as so many of you."
One of the few times I've disagreed with you. Putin needs a get of free jail card (read: a face saving gesture). He has intimated in the past of Russian restoration and dominance. I think it extends beyond Ukraine, but I think he would settle for the eastern region. I would not bet against a guy who holds 6000 trump cards.
Then you're either a moron, or a Putin lackey.
Because if those "6000 trump cards" get him eastern Ukraine, then he will keep on playing them to get more. And more.
until The USSR and the Warsaw Pact are reconsitutited, or else we've gone to nuclear war against Putin.
Either we take the position that Russia has no legitimate interests outside its Budapest Accords agreed to borders, and that any attempt by Russia to use its nukes in conquest will be the end of Russia, or their will be nuclear war.
Russia's nukes protect Russia from being invaded. And that's all they should protect
Lurker21 said...
I don't think Putin was looking to restore the Soviet Union or the Russian Empire. He might have been content with favorable governments on his borders. He obviously does want Russian-speaking parts of Ukraine, whether or not they want to be Russian or want him.
It is correct that you don't think.
Putin wants everything. Anything you give him means he just wants more. Give him Eastern Ukraine, and he wants the Western half, too. That is, after all, why he invaded the Western half while controlling the Eastern half.
Once he had that? Nato would be on all his Western Borders! That's an unacceptable threat!
You can not negotiated with someone who refuses to negotiate in good faith.
Taht was true of Obama, it's true of whoever controls Biden, as Joe Manchin found out, and it's true of Putin.
There's no possible "face saving off ramp" for Putin because the only valid off ramp is Ukraine's borders restored to what Russia agreed to under the Budapest Accords.
because anything else rewards Putin for aggression, and thus guarantees more aggression
veni vidi vici said...
Maybe Ukraine's claims of eternal dominion over territories it was granted only in the past 100 years is the imperialist craziness in this equation.
So, the "imperialist craziness" is expecting Russia to honor the treaties it chose to sign?
If you're looking for a literal piece of shit, look in a mirror.
If your'e looking for reality, look at the Budapest Accords. If Russia didn't like those borders, the time to say so was before they signed the agreement
Michael K said...
WHY are WE starting World War Three because of the wishes of a former soviet republic?
Is THAT Really worth it?
Exactly. This war was begun because the Biden regime needed a distraction
So now Putin is Biden's lackey?
you are insane.
The war was started because Putin is an expansionist dictator of an industrial State, and as such is a threat to everyone on his border whenever he thinks he can get away with it.
The fact that Biden is a pathetic weakling is why Putin attacked now, rather than during the Trump Admin. But Putin attacked because that was what Putin wanted to do, not because of anything the Biden* Admin wanted.
Putin is our enemies. Those with functioning brains, who learned something from WWII, understand that Russia under Putin will always be our enemy, that it's always cheaper to fight an enemy when he's weak, rather than after he's conquered things and grown stronger, and that therefore stopping Putin anyplace we can is the right thing to do
Since the Ukrainians are wiling to fight and die to stop him, it's strongly in our own interest to help them do so
"Since the Ukrainians are wiling to fight and die to stop him, it's strongly in our own interest to help them do so."
************
Bollocks. that's a completely demented non-sequitur.
Americans are under NO obligation to die by the millions to defend a long-time part of the Russian Empire and client state entirely under the latter's sphere of influence.
The US doesn't have a dog in every fight.
Only insane people thing otherwise, and that includes YOU, Greg.
Greg: "There's no possible "face saving off ramp" for Putin because the only valid off ramp is Ukraine's borders restored to what Russia agreed to under the Budapest Accords.
because anything else rewards Putin for aggression, and thus guarantees more aggression.
***********
Some "reward": Putin has immiserated his own country, greatly diminished its military power, and actually revealed just how of that vaunted military power was actually just another "Potemkin Village" subterfuge.
Wanna 'splain where he's going to get the army and materiel to carry out more aggression?
This isn't remotely like Hitler and the Anschluss, where a country with a burgeoning economy on the march walks into a neighboring country and takes it over w/o firing a shot.
I'm beginning to believe in "Nazi-envy." That is, the psychological need to see a Nazi or Nazis in every bad act or actor; it's analogous to Munich Syndrome.
Neither are of much use in understanding the realities on the ground, which we see only a fraction of at most.
In my opinion Putin has gone past the point of winning politically no matter how much military effort he demands, and with winter coming on his options dwindle. That last may be true of the Ukes also.
But I am not a prophecy scientist.
Back when the Soviet Union was around, their strategists would look down their noses at the bourgeois theatrics of the New Left. To them, what mattered was the objective correlation of material forces, and the rest was just so much cotton candy. I think they had it close to right.
Here, the vast expanse of unconquerable space that is Russia makes a military victory impossible. A cease fire at the status quo ante bellum is also useless, as it simply sets the table for the next Russian advance. Putin isn't going away, any more than Ho Chi Minh was. All you can do is get the best deal possible. And it won't be a great deal.
Achilles said...
Rabel said...
I'm unclear on how the "Ukrainians are Nazis" people work around the hard fact that the Ukrainians are mostly Slavs and the Nazis considered Slavs to be subhumans who should be exterminated.
Go look up Azov Battalion.
I did
Then I went and looked up the Wagner Group, Russia's mercenaries, and found out the head of that group has the same kind of swastica tattoos as do the Azov people
So now I know that the only people who call the Ukrainian's "Nazis" are ignoramuses, morons, and liars.
And they have to assume that their listeners / readers have absolutely no memory of WWII, since the Ukrainians were in fact willing to join with the Nazis against the inflicters of the Holodomor, but the Nazis thought that murdering the Ukrainian Untermenschen was a"better" idea.
For that matter, Hungary and Finland both more or less allied with the Nazis in WWII. I guess that means you want to throw them to the Russians too, right?
effinayright said..Me: .
"Since the Ukrainians are wiling to fight and die to stop him, it's strongly in our own interest to help them do so."
************
Bollocks. that's a completely demented non-sequitur.
Americans are under NO obligation to die by the millions to defend a long-time part of the Russian Empire and client state entirely under the latter's sphere of influence
Go fuck yourself.
The Ukraine, Finland, Hungary, Poland, the Baltic States, etc et al are sovereign countries. They have no desire to be in Russia's Sphere of Interest, and only a complete and utter pile of shit would argue that they should be.
Russia is our enemy. So by arguing for an increase in Russia's power you are also a traitor to the US.
You want to avoid millions of Americans dead? Then you want Russia hemmed in and blocked from obtaining more power.
And you want Putin utter defeated and crushed for his attempts to expand Russia's power militarily.
Esp when it can be done without the loss of US life, as is happening in Ukraine.
The US doesn't have a dog in every fight.
The US has a dog in every fight where an enemy of the US is trying to increase it's power. How fucking stupid do you have to be to be unclear on that?
effinayright said...
Some "reward": Putin has immiserated his own country, greatly diminished its military power, and actually revealed just how of that vaunted military power was actually just another "Potemkin Village" subterfuge.
Not if the invasion gets him Ukraine, or any significant part of it.
Russia is (correctly) seen as having a Potemkin military because they're losing. If they win, that impression quite properly goes away.
Since you're arguing that we should cut off support of Ukraine in the hope that they lose, and get forced back into Russia's "sphere of influence", that's what your'e arguing for
Wanna 'splain where he's going to get the army and materiel to carry out more aggression?
Hmm, let's see:
Successfully conquers Ukraine
2: Sanctions go away
3: Resumes making lots of money seeing POL to Europe
4: Has "defeated America and Europe" in Ukraine 9please tell me you're not so much of a moron that you "think" that any Putin victory in Ukraine will not be played as "Putin defeated the West!")
I wonder where a guy with all those accomplishments can get a military? No, I don't, because I'm not a complete fucking moron.
This isn't remotely like Hitler and the Anschluss, where a country with a burgeoning economy on the march walks into a neighboring country and takes it over w/o firing a shot.
This is entirely like the run up to WWII. We have a totalitarian thug expansionist dictator of an industrial State with a ton of natural resources, who will have great prestige for having "defeated the West", whose desire is to rule all of Europe.
Exactly what is going to stop this former KGB Colonel, once you've successfully sabotaged Ukraine's resistance? It's not like anyone else is going to trust is to back them against Russia. Better take whatever deal Putin has to offer, before he makes you a worse one.
With stupidity like yours, it's amazing you can even type
I recommend teh decaf, Greg.
were these Ukrainians asked about their Banderite Nazism [aka race hatred]
RMc said...
Russia needs to be put out of business and divided into several countries, just like the USSR was. (The problem with that is, rather than having one big country whose leader might be crazy, we'll have several little countries whose leaders might be crazy.)
========
works equally well with USA in place of Russia
This is not a war it is a metaphor. For Ukraine has not been invaded by Russia, rather the WEF/Davos Crowd/Deep State is fighting a supporter of the nationalist state; globalism is at war with traditionalism, Biden is at war with Trump. This war has nothing to do with the people involved, it has everything to do with US domestic politics. The people there fighting and dying are but mere puppets on the play of these greater themes.
And sometimes a garden shovel is just a garden shovel.
Greg The Class Traitor said...
Achilles said...
Rabel said...
I'm unclear on how the "Ukrainians are Nazis" people work around the hard fact that the Ukrainians are mostly Slavs and the Nazis considered Slavs to be subhumans who should be exterminated.
Go look up Azov Battalion.
I did
Then I went and looked up the Wagner Group, Russia's mercenaries, and found out the head of that group has the same kind of swastica tattoos as do the Azov people
So now I know that the only people who call the Ukrainian's "Nazis" are ignoramuses, morons, and liars.
You are being a dishonest piece of shit.
So Russians have bad people too. I don't support what the Russians are doing.
You support the Ukranians. You are supporting genocide.
It isn't hard to see what you are doing wrong here.
Greg The Class Traitor said...
veni vidi vici said...
Maybe Ukraine's claims of eternal dominion over territories it was granted only in the past 100 years is the imperialist craziness in this equation.
So, the "imperialist craziness" is expecting Russia to honor the treaties it chose to sign?
If you're looking for a literal piece of shit, look in a mirror.
If your'e looking for reality, look at the Budapest Accords. If Russia didn't like those borders, the time to say so was before they signed the agreement
So what about Ukraine honoring legal elections?
How about Ukraine not killing and persecuting Yanukovich supporters? Is that OK because they are ethnic Russians?
You keep trying to make this into some morality play.
But really you are just an ignorant coward. You should go fight this war.
Achilles said...
You are being a dishonest piece of shit.
So Russians have bad people too. I don't support what the Russians are doing.
Really?
1: The Ukrainians have some bad people. The Russians have some bad people. Everyone, everywhere, has some bad people.
But according to you the Ukrainians having some bad people makes them all Nazis. Whereas the Russia bad people dont' mean anything
Bullshit
2: In 2016, there wa a binary choice: Trump or Clinton
In 2020 there was a binary choice: Trump or Biden
in 2022 there is a binary choice: Ukraine or Russia
If you're arguing against supporting Ukraine, you are arguing for Russia. Just like in 2016 attacking Trump was effectively the same thing as supporting Hillary
Please stop the dishonest bullshit
You support the Ukranians. You are supporting genocide.
No, supporting Russia VS Ukraine is supporting Genocide. See the Holodomor
Supporting Ukraine vs Russia is simply being a decent human being
It isn't hard to see what you are doing wrong here.
Sure. All you have to do is live in mirror world, and all my "wrongs" are "obvious"
Greg is an angry boy today.
He's long on Raytheon and worried that critical thinking about the war might take root and spoil his position.
Either that, or he's gone off his meds and is beyond reason.
There is no other logical conclusion.
Achilles said...
So what about Ukraine honoring legal elections?
You mean like the Parliamentary elections that created a Parliament where 70% of the members voted to link up with the West?
Oh, let me guess, THOSE elections don't count
You are both pathetic and dishonest. Let's get some actual history, shall we?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolution_of_Dignity
In Feb 2013, "[Verkhovna Rada, the Ukrainian] Parliament passes statement on Ukraine's aspirations for European integration". Kyiv Post. 22 February 2013. "A total of 315 of the 349 MPs registered in the sitting hall supported the document on Friday. The draft document reads that the Verkhovna Rada "within its powers, will ensure that the recommendations concerning the signing of the Association Agreement between Ukraine and the EU, which are stipulated in the resolutions of the European Parliament and the conclusions of the Council of the EU approved on December 10, 2012, at a meeting of the EU foreign ministers, will be fulfilled."
Apparently the voters who elected these 315 MPs just don't matter
In November 2013, a wave of large-scale protests (known as Euromaidan) erupted in response to President Yanukovych's sudden decision not to sign a political association and free trade agreement with the European Union (EU), instead choosing closer ties to Russia and the Eurasian Economic Union.
Wow, that CIA is so powerful! They got to 70%+ of the Ukrainian Parliament, and hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians, all to get them to conspire against poor old Vlad Putin.
In January and February 2014, clashes in Kyiv between protesters and Berkut special riot police resulted in the deaths of 108 protesters and 13 police officers,[20] and the wounding of many others. The first protesters were killed in fierce clashes with police on Hrushevskoho Street on 19–22 January. Following this, protesters occupied government buildings throughout the country. The deadliest clashes were on 18–20 February, which saw the most severe violence in Ukraine since it regained independence.[31] Thousands of protesters advanced towards parliament, led by activists with shields and helmets, and were fired on by police snipers.[20] On 21 February, an agreement between President Yanukovych and the leaders of the parliamentary opposition was signed that called for the formation of an interim unity government, constitutional reforms and early elections.[32] The following day, police withdrew from central Kyiv, which came under effective control of the protesters. Yanukovych fled the city.[33] That day, the Ukrainian parliament voted to remove Yanukovych from office by 328 to 0 (72.8% of the parliament's 450 members).
So, they sign a deal, Yanukovych decides he wants a different deal and bugs out, and it's all an "illegal coup" by people who have the bad taste to not want to be one of Vlad's slaves.
It really must suck to be you. How hard did you have to work to get yourself to pretend to believe the BS you're spouting?
I've pointed this all out before. For some reason you've always left the discussion was I point out the actual history, as opposed to the bullshit you're pushing.
I expect you'll do so again, because even you know what your'e pushing is total crap
I'm shocked, shocked!
It's two days later, and Achilles has no response.
No explanation as to why the elections of 70% of Ukraine's parliament needed to be ignored.
No response to any of the actual history of how Putin's lackey Yanukovych lost power
It's almost like even Achilles knows the pro-Russian narrative is utter trash
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