"... and with a huge hat, which gets in other diners’ way. She also loves to wear things that make a lot of noise while walking. Everyone I know is uncomfortable with these new choices. Am I wrong to feel this way in 2022? How can we address this and also be sensitive to style and individuality? "
That's a question addressed to the NYT fashion writer Vanessa Friedman.
I don't care what the answer is. I just want to see a movie based on this question.
I especially love "things that make a lot of noise while walking." I feel as though I've seen many movie/TV bits about a huge hat that gets in someone's way, so this movie will have to create some other fashion aggression.
I love the theme of a lady deciding it's time for her to explore and expand. You know it's traditionally a problem for women that we've been socialized to make ourselves small and to always account for the needs of others and rein in our own urge to express. So I'd love to see a character go big with fashion — wild, invasive, annoying fashion. It's a comedy. With a serious message.
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To take this concept to the next level it would also be hilarious to have a woman's big boobs get in everyone's way. What a hoot(er) that would be!
Noise Pollution---the big jangling bracelets. The clomp-clomp of shoe heels. If not noise pollution, then at the very least, a big cry for attention on the part of the wearer.
The other issue is tolerance for, according to the letter-writer, a "dear friend" -- who doesn't seem to be worthy of unconditional love no matter the ever-changing moods, and wacky style choices she makes.
You know it's traditionally a problem for women that we've been socialized to make ourselves small and to always account for the needs of others and rein in our own urge to express
Nagging is traditional though.
A suit with a bow but not a shirt. I am having trouble picturing this. Is the bow across the chest? Holding the suit jacket closed? Around the neck?
" You know it's traditionally a problem for women that we've been socialized to make ourselves small and to always account for the needs of others and rein in our own urge to express."
Well, no, we don't "know" such things - they were made up by the feminists of the late 20th Century by expanding their non-representative, personal impressions of their lives to all of "womankind".
As long as she doesn't sit in front of me at the movies. Oh, that's right. I don't go to movies but rarely.
This post immediately made me think of the Seinfeld episode in which Elaine's nemesis, Sue Ellen, wears a jacket with a bra (and no shirt), causing Kramer and Jerry to crash George's car. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Caddy_(Seinfeld)
Unusual fashion choices draw attention, but not always in a good way.
Bella Abzug. Being near her is characterized as like living in an airport terminal.
There's been a couple of onesies recently with low enough neckline to expose visible ribs between breasts, Sandra Bullock and some other actress, that sort of count as a suit with no shirt. It's not so much fashion as a new way not to quite expose breasts, where you're expected to check to see if the not exposing part actually works.
I'd like to see a movie with a lead woman character who wears a tiny party hat and has a device stuffed somewhere that makes farting noises when she walks. Then I'd have her fall in love with Rip Taylor. Then there'd be a hugh car wreck and Rip Taylor would die and his last words would be a farting sound. Followed by a laugh track (the loudest of the movie). Then the woman would walk away from the car wreck scene, farting as she goes. And the hat would still be on her. It'd be hilarious and people would watch it too. Some of them.
While I'm on a subject, whatever happened to Lazlo?
Re Sisyphus: Sue Ellen Mischke! As played by the magnificent-looking, 6-foot-tall actress Brenda Strong, who doesn't really need any fashion accoutrements to stand out. (Though out of the zillion TV shows she's been in, she's probably best known for a mostly voice-only role, as the narrator of "Desperate Housewives.")
Achilles does the same thing by not showering.
Althouse said:
"You know it's traditionally a problem for women that we've been socialized to make ourselves small and to always account for the needs of others and rein in our own urge to express."
Acepting this as true, what are the consequenes of defying it?
not wearing shirt is expanding!!!
One almost gets Althouse's desired movie in "Where the Wild Things Are," except with monsters instead of human females.
Noise while walking? She found my corduroy pants!
They already made “The Devil Wears Pravda”. They called the women wearing loud shoes “clackers”.
Women have a vastly brooder range of socially acceptable fashion choices than men do, and much more leeway to express themselves.
One can perhaps argue that people of a certain generation were encouraged to make themselves small, or people of a certain religion, or people of a certain geographical area. To try to say that about women in general, though, strikes me as difficult to sustain.
tell us MORE, about this "bow"? WHAT does It have to do, with not wearing a shirt?
Is there a bra?
It took a scroll through 7 messages to hit the Seinfeld reference. And then there's
The big coat and the Swooshing pants
She also loves to wear things that make a lot of noise while walking.
Like the corduroy pants I wore as a child. The ones with plaid flannel lining were quite special ... and warm.
It would be interesting to back to old fashion (is anything really new?) and wear a codpiece.
I hope the answer was: Cowboy up, buttercup.
Is jewelry nowadays even loud? I think of my great aunt's silver charm bracelet that would knock your teeth out with a random gesticulation. I think of my mother wearing Navajo squash blossoms that were as big as a shirt. Or go-go boots, hot pants, and a thousand beaded necklaces.
We live in an era where all the loudness is on social media. I applaud this overt, hat-wearing amazon.
I think of Ursula Andress in the david Niven/Peter Sellers/Orson Welles/Woody Allen "Casino Royale."
Sir James : [Eyeing Miss Lynd's ostentatious pantsuit with extravagant feathered headdress] What a charming outfit that is. Do you often wear it in the office?
Vesper Lynd : If I wore it in the street, people might stare.
As always, there is a Seinfeld episode that is on point: The Sidler
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9eDhJ6fNQ0
How can we address this and also be sensitive to style and individuality?
Right, no one wants to be Margaret Dumont. What a dilemma!
There are actually several Seinfeld eps that are on point I now see. The Sidler episode was about a cow-orker who was silently sneaking up on Elaine until she gave him a box of TicTacs
Quiet cow-orkers can be as annoying as noisy ones.
M Jordan-There was a movie back in the 70s called Chatterbox about a woman with a talking vagina. Is that something like what you had in mind?
John stop fascism vote republican Henry
Movies: the fashion victims (eager volunteers!) in Beetlejuice, and the dinner party guests in Too Beautiful For You.
I think it would be fun if a friend started showing up in wild clothes.
"Like the corduroy pants I wore as a child. The ones with plaid flannel lining were quite special ... and warm"
Flannel line trousers are called "stadium pants".
Christ! Jackie Kennedy wore suits without a blouse.
To enhance her desperate cry for attention she should also wear copious amounts of perfume. That way, she can be visually, audibly, and olfactorily annoying.
Hobnailed boots make a lot of noise too.
I'm thinking hobnailed boots, a slit skirt, and my tackiest/sexiest wife-beater for Halloween. And my Dick Hat.
Mustn't forget the Dick Hat.
She will show up to dinner wearing a suit with a bow but without a shirt...
Wasn't this the on-going gag in "Splash" with Darryl Hannah, and Tom Hanks?
Blogger rhhardin said...
There's been a couple of onesies recently with low enough neckline to expose visible ribs between breasts, Sandra Bullock and some other actress,
What was the TV show that Bullock got into the shower naked with another woman?
There it is.
"traditionally a problem for women that we've been socialized to make ourselves small and to always account for the needs of others and rein in our own urge to express. So I'd love to see a character go big with fashion — wild, invasive, annoying fashion"
Assuming this is meant seriously, as it sometimes is when Althouse discusses women's issues:
Who dat we? Not any woman of my multi-decade acquaintance. Those who "accounted for the needs of others" did so not out of mindless duty but as conscious commitment to their idea of value and virtue. None of them socialized to be "small," all of them indignant, if asked, at the absurd insult implied.
And did women "traditionally" have to "rein in our urge to express" more than men? How so? Measured how? For more than a century, coddled rich and middle-class women have had far more room to "express" than uniformed men, many doing back-breaking jobs where what they got to express was sweat.
Women's liberation is real. It is one of the good things that happened over the past century. Time to end the traditional whine.
Believe (the fashion choices of) all women.
“ She also loves to wear things that make a lot of noise while walking.”
The ballet dancer in “Harrison Bergeron” springs to mind.
Althouse writes, "So I'd love to see a character go big with fashion — wild, invasive, annoying fashion. It's a comedy. With a serious message."
So what's the message? That you're not an autonomous person unless your personal style infringes the prerogatives of others?
Feminine style getting in the way of social and commercial life is an old story -- trains, bustles, hats the size of minor Teutonic dukedoms, diamond necklaces heavy enough to cause a battleship to list, ropes of pearls, rattly bracelets that could panic a cowpoke. (Snake!) The officers and men of RMS Titanic could have saved a few hundred more Steerage Class people if it were for all the First Class hats.
You can go to TJ Maxx, Dillards and Macy's and buy clown blouses.
I’m forced to remember Benny Hill in leather pants sitting on a Naugahyde couch making fart noises every time he shifted slightly.
Next time I wear a kilt to a social function I'm bringing a caber.
If anyone asks I'll say it's an accessory. Your ceiling's too low for my caber. Mind if I adjust it?
A MAGA hat would make it an easy call, just showing your hooters, not so much.
Q. "How can we address this and also be sensitive to style and individuality?"
A. Don't invite her to dinner ever again.
A suit with a bow but not a shirt. I am having trouble picturing this. Is the bow across the chest? Holding the suit jacket closed? Around the neck?
One would assume around the neck.
I was in high school and college when you were. In New England. I don't know what this "women being encouraged to dress small and unobtrusively" means.
I don't say that I have never heard the sentiment before. But it has usually been in the form of asserting that mothers and grandmothers were told to do this a hundred years ago and it was still being passed on to my friends fifty years ago, but they weren't going to put up with this any longer. It was men who were encouraged to dress conservatively.
:You know it's traditionally a problem for women that we've been socialized to make ourselves small and to always account for the needs of others and rein in our own urge to express."
Really? You're kidding, right?
Bullock and another naked woman in the shower?
Why wasn't I informed of this sooner?
No one can go braless with an open jacket like the Prime Minister of Finland!
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-8839655/Finlands-prime-minister-Sanna-Marin-criticised-wearing-blazer-plunging-neckline.html
@John Henry: “ M Jordan-There was a movie back in the 70s called Chatterbox about a woman with a talking vagina. Is that something like what you had in mind?”
Yes, exactly. This talking vagina movie sounds interesting. Can you remember any lines?
Spike Jones on Hedda Hopper:
https://youtu.be/4o5XNUE4Oek
Without reading any other comments first -
You know it's traditionally a problem for women that we've been socialized to make ourselves small and to always account for the needs of others and rein in our own urge to express.
That is patently untrue with regard to fashion.
You’ve described What's Up, Doc?, the Barbra Streisand comedy that was the third-highest film of 1972, Legally Blonde starring Reese Witherspoon, and Melissa McCarthy in Spy.
Now do perfume.
I don't recall ever being offended by anyone's clothing. But the sickly-sweet aroma emanating from some women (and rarely, men) has made me leave a room. WTH are they thinking?
I'm reminded of the Steve Martin rejoinder to "Mind if I smoke?" "No, mind if I fart?"
I thought we already knew that Sex in the City was a mean trick played on women by fashion designers.
Nice said...
Noise Pollution---the big jangling bracelets. The clomp-clomp of shoe heels. If not noise pollution, then at the very least, a big cry for attention on the part of the wearer.
[Some] Men do this too. There are different ways to walk that avoid or draw notice.
It can be done subtly. If you walk heel first and create a steady cadence it will draw attention. Combined with posture and use of eye contact it places you in a position to assume leadership or draw challenge.
You can do things that achieve the opposite effect as well. If you posture yourself a certain way eyes will slide off you. Carrying a binder/folder actually works or wearing "working" clothes.
Male demonstrations are meant to place themselves in the hierarchy and display status to attract females.
Women are trying to attract the attention of the high status men in the room.
But if you are going to use a giant hat to do so the goal is also to shade out the other people you want to outshine. The woman will not use the hat to annoy the men she wants to attract. Only the people she feels in competition with.
I believe this behavior falls in the category of 'doing your own thing'.
You know it's traditionally a problem for women that we've been socialized to make ourselves small and to always account for the needs of others and rein in our own urge to express.
That hasn't been true for the 50+years that I can recall. By "traditionally" you must mean for people who were already old by the time the flappers came along after WWI.
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