April 5, 2022

"What you are about to read is a direct translation of an article written by a russian propagandist. This is what real #Russia wants. Please read and share."

Here, at Medium. Via Memeorandum, so I do think it is what it purports to be, support for the Russian government's invasion of Ukraine.

Excerpt:

Denazification is necessary when a considerable number of population (very likely most of it) has been subjected to the Nazi regime and engaged into its agenda. That is, when the “good people — bad government” hypothesis does not apply. Recognizing this fact forms the backbone of the denazification policy and all its measures, while the fact itself constitutes its subject....

Those Nazis who took up arms must be destroyed on the battlefield, as many of them as possible. No significant distinction should be made between the Armed Forces of Ukraine and the so-called “nationalist battalions,” as well as the Territorial Defense, who have joined the two other types of military units. They are all equally complicit in the horrendous violence towards civilians, equally complicit in the genocide of the Russian people, and they don’t comply with the laws and customs of war. War criminals and active Nazis must be punished in such a way as to provide an example and a demonstration. A total lustration must be conducted....

MORE: More Russian propaganda (I added the hotlink to Wikipedia, as I did above):

Russia will have no allies in the denazification of Ukraine. Because this is a purely Russian business. And also because it is not just the Bandera version of Nazi Ukraine that will be eradicated. The process will also, and above all, affect Western totalitarianism, the imposed programs of civilizational degradation and disintegration, the mechanisms of subjugation under the superpower of the West and the United States. 

In order to put the Ukraine denazification plan into practice, Russia itself will have to finally part with pro-European and pro-Western illusions, acknowledge itself as the last authority in protecting and preserving those values of historical Europe (the Old World) that deserve to preserve and that the West ultimately abandoned, losing the fight for itself....

Russia did everything possible to save the West in the 20th century. It implemented the main Western project that constituted an alternative to capitalism, which defeated the nation-states — the Socialist red project. It crushed German Nazism, a monstrous offspring of the crisis of Western civilization. The last act of Russian altruism was its outstretched hand of friendship, for which it received a monstrous blow in the 1990s. Everything that Russia has done for the West, it has done at its own expense, by making the greatest sacrifices. The West ultimately rejected all these sacrifices, devalued Russia’s contribution to resolving the Western crisis, and decided to take revenge on Russia for the help that it had selflessly provided.

From now on, Russia will follow its own way, not worrying about the fate of the West, relying on another part of its heritage — the leadership in the global process of decolonization.... The denazification of Ukraine is at the same time its decolonization, which the population of Ukraine will have to understand as it begins to free itself from the intoxication, temptation, and dependence of the so-called European choice.

ADDED: Putin polls well in Russia. I don't know how good Russian polls are, but he had 71% support before the invasion and 83% support by the end of March.

97 comments:

David Begley said...

Not much different than WaPo and NYT. They assert that the GOP is full of Nazis because we don’t agree with the Democrat party.

jaydub said...

Are you sure this wasn't written by the comrade from Vermont?

michaele said...

I saw some "man on the street" type interviews with Russians about their country's war on Ukraine and this nazi theme was constantly repeated. It is hard for me to comprehend that this line of propaganda has been so successful as Putin's justification for what his military is doing. It is very disturbing and makes me reflective about so many aspects of human nature.

rehajm said...

Putin sees lots of Nazis in Poland, too…

Bob Boyd said...

That is, when the “good people — bad government” hypothesis does not apply.

It's a basket of deplorables and irredeemables.

Mike Sylwester said...

Russia is not the only country that has to suppress Nazis. Another country is Canada, where a lot of Nazi truckdrivers recently disrupted the capital city.

Here is the United States, it's not so much Nazis. Here it's White Supremacists who are a major problem.

Ann Althouse said...

Can any of you honestly say that you would not believe this if it was the only point of view you heard?

David Begley said...

People are easy dupe for many reasons. Constant repetition from “reliable sources” is one method. We heard for years that Trump stole the election with help from the Russians. People wanted to believe that because they hated Trump. Prizes were awarded for this Fake News reinforcing the truth of the stories. Note that the prizes won’t be returned. The narrative must be maintained.

Look at how many people believe the CAGW nonsense.

Mike Sylwester said...

The big problem with Nazis is that they invade other countries and cause a lot of death and destruction there.

Quayle said...

We all live in an information bubble. We reinforce that bubble by only reading things that reinforce our own views. It takes real emotional maturity to not react to and turn from viewpoints different than ours. As Ann is pointing out today, the real issue we need to resolve is that our fellow citizens don't want to consider or understand differing viewpoints. To even consider other viewpoints is a sin, punishable by public shame and ostracism.

David Begley said...

Professor Althouse makes the case for the First Amendment, Free Speech and a rigorous an independent press.

I can’t get the local newspaper and the only talk radio station in Omaha interested in the fact that Omaha Public Power District plans on spending $28b plus on wind and solar. If FB shuts me down, I can’t get my message out to stop a 3200 acre solar development.

Witness said...

"Can any of you honestly say that you would not believe this if it was the only point of view you heard?"

self-selection. those who disagree, leave - if they can.

Howard said...

That's a nice way of giving the Russian people a pass for the atrocities that their government is inflicting on ukraine, Althouse

Enigma said...

@Althouse wrote if it was the only point of view you heard?

That's always the core epistemological question -- people today would be shocked by USA news/viewpoints of the 1950s. Many films and cartoons have been banned. People would be shocked by WW2 propaganda.

We all walk through factual Jell=o, but some of us don't know it!

MadTownGuy said...

Ann Althouse said...

"Can any of you honestly say that you would not believe this if it was the only point of view you heard?"

I can. Even in the absence of primary sources, I wouldn't be inclined to take it at face value without any factual support. The arguments set forth assume Nazism and 'Western totalitarianism' which, if I were Russian, I would measure against the totalitarianism evident in my own country.

I wonder, though, if there's another basis for Putin's apparent popularity. Imagine a socialist takeover of our government, in which Florida is ceded to Cuba, New Mexico becomes part of Old Mexico, likewise southern Arizona and Imperial County. CA. Imagine the popularity of a leader who would pledge to take those places back.

Koot Katmandu said...

I believe some of it and I hear the west point of view daily. I guess that how to effectively lie - weave in some truth.

"The process will also, and above all, affect Western totalitarianism, the imposed programs of civilizational degradation and disintegration, the mechanisms of subjugation under the superpower of the West and the United States." This sounds accurate to me?

Amadeus 48 said...

I missed the part where the Ukrainians routinely imprison, poison, and assassinate those individuals who are critical of their regime both inside and outside the country--but I guess that wouldn't be the Ukrainians, that would be the Russians.

I am NOT saying that any Ukrainians deserve halos. I am saying they live in a bad neighborhood, and those people next door have a long history of invasion, subjugation, exploitation, rape, and pillage. Now the neighbors are painting swastikas on the walls and saying the Ukrainians did it.

This evokes Godwin's Law. Once you make the Nazi comparison, you really have lost the argument, because no one is as bad as the Nazis--which is not to say that Stalin was any better. It is just that the Nazis were so campy that it would be easy to laugh at them (see Mel Brooks, Walt Disney, and Charlie Chaplin) if they weren't so horrible. Stalin and the Reds were just menacing and drab (see George Orwell), as well as being evil.

Putin is menacing and drab, a true son of the Party. The Ukrainians are not Nazis--they lack the style of Hitler, Goebbels, Speer, and Hess. They are stuck in an existential struggle with their Slav cousins.

Amadeus 48 said...

"Can any of you honestly say that you would not believe this if it was the only point of view you heard?"

What do you think I am, a NYT/WaPoo reader?

The Nazi comparison makes it ridiculous. Oh, yeah, they say the Ukrainian leadership are all drug addicts, too.

Pull the other one, mate. It has bells on it.

Iman said...

Who’s the Nazi here!?!?

Sebastian said...

"Russia did everything possible to save the West in the 20th century. It implemented the main Western project that constituted an alternative to capitalism, which defeated the nation-states — the Socialist red project."

Ah, yes, communism tried to save the West.

"Can any of you honestly say that you would not believe this if it was the only point of view you heard?"

Considering that our own PTB and media promote an "only point of view," I can honestly say that I would be skeptical. The nazi stuff in particular gets old, like the raaacccisssst stuff here.

There, as here, the question is, who is the biggest existential threat--external adversaries or the internal deep-staters. Their PTB decided to secure their borders, hard; our PTB decided to open the borders, the faster to change the country.

jnseward said...

It's propaganda but it's closer to the truth than the propaganda we are being fed.

Assistant Village Idiot said...

This is historically true of Russia, which since the fall of Constantinople has considered itself the New Rome, responsible for the preservation of the West, and even the world. It views democracy as chaos, leading to widespread crime and personal degradation. Old Russia very much believes that Nazism was a product of capitalism run amok. They do view themselves as the saviors, who thanklessly labor to preserve order.

Combine this with the glorification of the suffering of peasants (in Russia, that is their cosmic job, which ennobles them), so that whatever cost they pay is irrelevant, and you can see this repeated exercise in breast-beating "sacrifice" that the elites take credit for as well. It's nifty when the pieces fit together like that.

As for Ukraine, there are some Nazis. Not to the extent claimed, but they aren't made up. We often don't get it here. Just after my first trip to Romania, friends there told me that the elections are often between an actual communist, an actual nazi, and a Hungarian rights party that gets about 10% of the vote. Smaller parties scramble to find their way into an alliance. Hungary has seen the same since 1990.

tim maguire said...

Ann Althouse said...Can any of you honestly say that you would not believe this if it was the only point of view you heard?

I have a long history of disagreeing with everyone around me (I have spent almost my entire adult life in places where socialist literally is the moderate position, where I was the only non-leftist I knew). I might buy that there are too many Nazis in the Ukraine and I might buy that Nazis have to be killed, but I can honestly and confidently say that they would lose me when they use that to defend attacking all of Ukraine and I would work backwards from there to conclude that I can't trust them at all.

I may continue to believe it's ok to kill Nazis, but I would reject their plan for accomplishing it.

Bob Boyd said...

This is Russian propaganda being used as Ukrainian propaganda.
I'm sure the Russian people know that most of what they see and read in their media is propaganda. It has been for all of living memory.
How widely read is this publication? How credible it is with the Russian people?
The article has been cherry picked to bolster the current war crimes narrative. Maybe it's an accurate reflection of the Russian government's policies and goals. Maybe it's just how a certain sector of extremists see things.
Eventually the truth will come out.

Kevin said...

As I said in earlier posts related to domestic politics:

Anti-Nazism: What can't it justify?

PhilD said...

"Can any of you honestly say that you would not believe this if it was the only point of view you heard?"

As a theoretical I don't know.

Practically:
- Russia has been an open society for some years at least after 1991 so outside news sources have been available more or less.
- One would suppose that even though Russia has never been 'denazified' (so to speak) the crimes and lies of communist Russia should be widely known.
- Putin & Company pretend to be Christians (*). That in itself aught to put limits on propaganda like this.
- And the Ukraine is an open society with family links with Russia.
All this to say there is no excuse for the Russians if they really believe this nazilike (**)BS.


(*) though Putin's idea of the Russian Orthodox Church seems to be more in line with a 'Reichskirche ' then with any real Christian faith.

(**) it seems (supposed) 'nazis' are the new 'jews', the 'Emmanuel Goldstein's of today.

Elizabeth Kantor said...

I can.

My evidence is that I didn't buy the Covid narrative.

And while IT IS ABSOLUTELY NO EXCUSE FOR THE RUSSIAN INVASION OF THE UKRAINE, I will note that there does seem to be a disturbing amount of neo-Nazism in the Ukraine.

I am rooting for the Ukrainians to drive the Russian aggressors out of their country, but also for the Ukrainians with humane principles to win out over the Azov Battalion types in determining the future of their country.

Ron Winkleheimer said...

Can any of you honestly say that you would not believe this if it was the only point of view you heard?

Good question, probably not. My first thought was that when somebody starts throwing around the term Nazi then I'm going to discount pretty much everything they say, but upon reflection I had to admit to myself that I'm not Russian and I have access to a myriad of points of view.

DanTheMan said...

>>Can any of you honestly say that you would not believe this if it was the only point of view you heard?

I'll raise my hand for that one.

Nazis? In 2022? It doesn't pass the laugh test.

Gravel said...

I can honestly say that the Russian people probably don't believe it, either. They didn't believe the official government organs under Soviet rule. Why would they believe this codswallop?

gilbar said...

This just shows how sad it is; that the US isn't self sufficient in oil production
IF ONLY, there was OIL, in THIS country, that we could tap instead of having to buy oil on the world market; which directly benefits the Ruskies
Imagine, if there was Oil and Gas production IN the USA, with a way to transport it to our cities.
Heck! Imagine if the USA EXPORTED oil and gas to Europe.

Of course, all that is a pipeline dream

Tom said...

In a horrific and ironic twist, the de-Nazification will also include de-Jewification.

Mike of Snoqualmie said...

I'm sure they have honest polls in Putin's Russia. Respondents will believe if they answer the "wrong" way, the FSB will drop by for a little chat. To help the respondents realize the error of their answers and answer correctly the next time. For Putin is an honorable man. After all, he's very generous with his money. Just as Hunter Biden and Two Scoops Biden about how much influence mullah they've collected from the honorable Putin.

Tim said...

This from the country that already implemented a worse pogrom than the Germans did. Let us not forget Stalin and the deliberate starvation of millions of Ukrainians in the '30s. Because I guarantee the Ukrainians who are fighting so hard to keep the Russians out have not forgotten. I have no idea how many actual Nazis there may be in Ukraine. But I do know what happened under Stalin.....and I for one wish the Ukrainians every success in keeping their freedom.

Owen said...

Prof A @ 7:48: “…if it was the only point of view [I] heard?” I’d like to think I could resist believing it but if my only diet were angry tasteless slop like this, week after month after year, I guess it would affect my outlook if not force an explicit adoption of it as my exclusive credo, proof against all critique. …”Belief” is a slippery word. I “believe” it won’t rain today but I am not risking much by such a point of view. Whereas if I “believe” in the Resurrection despite my inquisitors’ torture and promise of death, I m using the same word in a very different way.
Much easier for Russian consumers of this evil tripe to accept it if they don’t personally bear the cost of the policy it urges by, e.g., sacrificing their sons or being bombed out of their homes.

BarrySanders20 said...

Russia faced the same basic "tradition vs Western influence" going back to Peter the Great. They constantly fought wars in and over territory to their west (currently in Ukraine, the Baltic states, Poland), from the southern Crimean and Black Sea region (Tatars and then the Ottomans), and of course against the Mongols when those hordes came through from the east. Some large percentage of Rus may still pine for the days of tsars and serfs.

The point of view asserted plays on a powerful human emotion that prevents rationality and compromise -- the B-Word -- Betrayal. I see it in litigation. It is nearly impossible to resolve a dispute a party feels betrayed, and a judge or jury is required to impose some verdict which only rarely provides any satisfaction. If someone is primed to believe that Russia not only hasn't been treated fairly by the West but was actually betrayed, the argument has a lot of appeal and power.

Achilles said...

Ann Althouse said...

Can any of you honestly say that you would not believe this if it was the only point of view you heard?

That depends. People are different. Sources are different.

The Russian Government is not particularly trustworthy. They are about as honest as our media and our current Regime. They also participate in censorship like our current Regime.

If a source has been found to be dishonest and it suppresses opposing viewpoints I immediately assume everything they say will be dishonest in some way.

You also have to separate Actions from Words.

In this case the Ukrainian Government did employ Nazi battalions in the 2 >80% Russian ethnic regions to persecute and suppress Russian ethnic groups. The Government of Ukraine is also the product of a coup in 2014 and not particularly legitimate.

On the other hand expanding the invasion to include all of Ukraine as an action is not explicable in this context and implies goals that do not match the words.

Russia fucked up when they invaded the entire country of Ukraine. Putin will lose his position in Russia and probably his life over it.

The Nazi elements in Ukraine will be strengthened and rewarded and swept under the rug by the Western Regimes that support them.

There will likely be an extended occupation of the 2 ethnic Russian regions by Russia and a consolidation.

Why do you suppose the Biden Administration's actions have clearly served to drag this conflict out as long as possible?

Original Mike said...

"Can any of you honestly say that you would not believe this if it was the only point of view you heard?"

Me. As soon as 'Nazi' is uttered I get skeptical. And when you're claiming you invaded another country to get rid of their Nazis? That has bullshit written all over it.

BUMBLE BEE said...

Now do Weapons Of Mass Destruction... see what I mean? How many years of your life has America been at war? Do yourself a favor, Google "Current African Conflicts". Whites Only in the press prevails.

Wince said...

Ann Althouse said...
Can any of you honestly say that you would not believe this if it was the only point of view you heard?

More like say you don't believe it when this is the only point of view you're allow to repeat without consequence, a predicament which of course hits closer to home?

Specifically, how many people in the US feel would feel less threatened by saying there are Nazis in the US than in Ukraine?

BUMBLE BEE said...

Now do Lebanon.

M Jordan said...

“Bob Boyd said... This is Russian propaganda being used as Ukrainian propaganda“

Great line and very true. This is where we are as a species: fighting fake fire with fake fire, at least on the narrative front. On the reality front, real fire still exists and Putin proved that.

I’m with Mearsheimer on all this: on the reality front, Might makes right. Russia’s bigger, Russia will do what it wants to Ukraine, all the John McCains in NeoConVille waxing poetic on expanding democracy and peace to the contrary.

The trouble is, in this propagandized environment it’s hard to know exactly what is real. Even in Ukraine they aren’t sure.

Rusty said...

Howard said...
"That's a nice way of giving the Russian people a pass for the atrocities that their government is inflicting on ukraine, Althouse"
Like the atrocities you and your leftist friends inflicted on this country? You are such a tool.

JustSomeOldDude said...

Ann said: "Can any of you honestly say that you would not believe this if it was the only point of view you heard? "

Speaking only for myself, I tend to disbelieve anything and everything that I only hear from a sole source. The lack of any dissenting voice is enough for me to figure I'm being led along by the nose. But then again, we live in a society where dissent is tolerated and encouraged (to a great extent) and who is to say how we'd behave if we were brought up in a society that did not have this freedom.

Lyle said...

I've gotten to know a number of Russians while living in Houston. Several are good friends and all are university educated. Not a one is vehemently anti-Putin. Only one pooh poohs Putin's authoritarianism. All recognize what the US has gotten away with over the last 20 years since 9/11.

Howard said...

gilbar:. Not only is the US self sufficient in petroleum, we also export 3M bbl/day to the world market.

mccullough said...

The Red Army was always weak. 6.75 Russian soldiers killed in WW2. (4.5 million German Soldiers).

The US had about 500,000 killed.

Germany would have destroyed Russia without the US.

Hitler and Stalin and Mao ruined the 20th Century

mccullough said...

At its peak, about 10% of Germans were members of the Nazi party.

Germany was fascist, lost the war, and then the communists took over a good chunk of the country.

Fascism and Communism. Always need to be vigilant against these ideologies

Owen said...

Here's another plug for Timothy Snyder's "Bloodlands: Europe Between Hitler and Stalin." He has a remarkable talent for laying out the big picture and the numbers (millions dead, displaced, disappeared) and then illuminating it with personal testimony from, e.g., the lone survivor of a one-way trip to a pit in the Katyn Forest.

My point here is, Nazism is a lazy (but necessary) label. The racist insanity of Nazism needs to be brought to our attention again and again with excruciating details. Maybe Ukraine is teeming with Neo-Nazis, but I have to wonder at the cognitive dissonance required of such people, when their victims look exactly like them, live exactly like them, and speak very nearly the same language as they. If Ukrainian Nazism explains the provocation that Putin claims to legitimate his invasion, then these are Bloodlands indeed: irrevocably poisoned by such racist hatreds on all sides. The obvious metaphor is to Chernobyl, leaking its invisible deadly toxins into the landscape for untold generations to come.

Sigh.

Michael K said...

"Can any of you honestly say that you would not believe this if it was the only point of view you heard?"

You mean like women with penises ? And gender changes for five year olds ? Sure. If I was limited to the WaPoo and NYT and LA Times, I would probably believe it. But I don't read those and don't watch TV "News," even Fox is all in on Ukraine and war.

Roger Sweeny said...

Reading that was painfully like reading critical race theory stuff: so hateful, so divorced from reality. And what makes it especially painful, believed by so many people.

Heartless Aztec said...

That the Nazis and the Commies didnt do each other in during WWII. I guess it wasn't for a lack of trying. Sigh.

WWIII Joe Biden, Husk-Puppet + America's Putin said...

I would poll pro-Putin. If I wanted to live.

WWIII Joe Biden, Husk-Puppet + America's Putin said...

In other words - No way those Polls are accurate.

Putin has a stranglehold on power and his enemies end up dead.

Achilles said...

Howard said...

gilbar:. Not only is the US self sufficient in petroleum, we also export 3M bbl/day to the world market.

Do we import more than 3M barrels a day from other sources?

Everyone knows how this works. Some comes in. Some goes out. Different refineries are better for different kinds of oil.

Obviously more is coming in now and gas prices are more than doubled.

You are just dishonest. You cannot honestly say what you support or what your regime is doing.

It is pathetic. You are pathetic.

Bob Boyd said...

“To get one to commit the greatest atrocities, you do not need to convince evil men to do evil. You need to convince good men they are doing good. The best men I have ever met did the worst things I have ever seen.” — U.S. marine

hombre said...

"Can any of you honestly say that you would not believe this if it was the only point of view you heard?"

Not any more. There was a time when Americans were resistant to the nonsense promulgated by the leftmediaswine and others. Delusional Dems and their consorts argue otherwise these days.

100% of Americans believe 50% of Americans are nuts. We are right!

Bob Boyd said...

I’m with Mearsheimer on all this

Yup. This war could have been avoided. Should have been. Wasn't. Why not?

hombre said...

"Can any of you honestly say that you would not believe this if it was the only point of view you heard?"

Not any more. There was a time when Americans were resistant to the nonsense promulgated by the leftmediaswine and others. Delusional Dems and their consorts argue otherwise these days.

100% of Americans believe 50% of Americans are nuts. We are right!

Mr. D said...

Ann Althouse said...
Can any of you honestly say that you would not believe this if it was the only point of view you heard?


I don’t know. My father subscribed to National Review in the Buckley days, so alternative viewpoints were always available. Cancel culture has only been a thing in the last 10-15 years.

Original Mike said...

Blogger Lyle said..."I've gotten to know a number of Russians while living in Houston. … All recognize what the US has gotten away with over the last 20 years since 9/11."

What has the US "gotten away with"?

WWIII Joe Biden, Husk-Puppet + America's Putin said...

Speaking of Soviet Liars:

@MrAndyNgo
Alyssa Mastromonaco/@AlyssaMastro44
, a former White House Deputy Chief under President Obama, spread the fabricated quote attributed to Tucker Carlson. She also worked for Vice Media & Marie Claire magazine.

narciso said...

the people who cheer the death of ashley babbitt and rosalynn boyland, who were on a two minute hate about rittenhouse, who cried for the 20th hijacker,

Lyle said...

@Original Mike

Lots of war, invasions, violence, etc. I mean, what American has been held accountable for killing those Afghan kids just last summer? Anyone at least been fired or resigned? Are Hillary Clinton or George W. Bush going to have judgement passed over them in the Hague?

Original Mike said...

Thanks for the reply, Lyle.

wildswan said...

What struck me was how much the "denazification" program and theory resembled "anti-racism (CRT type)" That there is a "bad people", that a "good people" needs to be built from the ground up starting in the schools, that all present social leaders of every type need to be excluded since all are part of systemic nazism/ racism; that another group (Russia) is pure and able to lead this effort. And much more. But then why are the people in our society who believe in anti-racism (CRT type) working with the Ukraine (alleged nazis) rather than Russia (denazification)?
What Putin calls "Nazis" tracks fairly closely with what I call globalists. But what Putin calls Nazis doesn't track with what a real Nazi was. In reality, the Nazis were about a great race, the Nordics, which was alleged to be the sole effective power opposing a deracinated empire, the Austro-Hungarian empire. And this is the claim Putin is making for himself and his race: "I, Putin, with Russian purity, am opposing the globalist West which led by American Empire mongrel hordes, is deracinating the Ukraine. When I win I will purify the Ukraine with the same techniques used in "anti-racist" syllabi in the US but with a different content. I, Putin, will then teach that there is a great race, the Russians, and the Ukrainians are being purified by the Russians to rejoin the great race." Putin is making the Nazi argument but calling it "opposition to the Nazis."
Two different ideologies, at present opposed, are proposing to rebuild society from the ground up using the same re-education/cancel culture framework. The present globalist society wants to build a racist, color-conscious society; the present Russia-is-the-great-race society wants to build a society opposed to the "Nazis" which is to say, opposed to the idea of a "great race", opposed to a dominating race. A globalist society.
Handy dandy, change hands.

JaimeRoberto said...

People underestimate the impact WW2 has on the Russian psyche. They bore the brunt of Nazi aggression. Millions dead. There are monuments all over the place to the "Great Patriotic War". Probably every family lost people. The communist regime exploited that to maintain loyalty of the population, and Putin is doing the same.

On the other hand, good propaganda has an element of truth. Lots of Ukrainians welcomed the Nazi invaders. Given how awful the communists were in Ukraine, that was understandable. Even now there are Nazi, or fascistic, elements in Ukraine. (Yes, Russia has it's own fascist elements, but it's easy to ignore the beam in your own eye.)

If I were in Russia would I be resistant to this propaganda? I'd like to think so, but without growing up in that milieu, I can't say for sure. There seem to be plenty of people in the US who think Nazis are everywhere here too, and our media gives cover to those that think that.

Candide said...

Fighting in Ukraine has a lot in common with US Civil war, when Union was pushing abolition very hard and Confederacy insisted there were more important issues involved, such as States’ rights. Likewise, Russia is pushing denazification and Ukranians insist on sovereignty.

MOfarmer said...

If I had just learned there were 3000 schools without indoor plumbing, I would be skeptical of the government narrative.

wildswan said...

Would I believe if I never heard opposition to my beliefs? It's my opinion that I would be the one making other people hear that there was an opposition. And I would be dead at a young age. That's in the US as it might become.
I've been told that no one in Russia believed in Communism after the Thirties and when I heard this from fellow pro-lifers in Moscow in the Nineties I asked how Communism which dominated the US outlook for my entire childhood and adult life had survived. The answer was too confused for me to understand. I think they said vocal opponents were killed and so no change could happen but silent non-believers who were not in positions of power such as teachers or the media or politics, were left alone.

wildswan said...

In this country as it is now it's easy to find what the other side thinks but it's not easy to look for it if you are a Dem with Dem privileges. Both sides are presented every day on Real Clear Politics but most Dems can't actually state what a Trump supporter, a prolifer or even a Republican thinks or knows. For instance, all three Republican groups knew about Hunter Biden's laptop over year ago but all statements any of them made about Joe Biden and corruption and the Biden crime family were dismissed as ignorant rant from Trump dupes. Now the laptop is acknowledged but the people who knew about it a year ago are still ignorant dupes and the people who did not know are still in their own minds, more knowledgeable. Another example, to knowledgeable listeners to NPR, Kamala Harris is still Presidential (aside from her poll numbers ((which don't matter right now in NYT world (((and never will as long as ((((secret, known only to inner High-Dems and the whole Republican world)))) Dems count the votes))) )) ).

BillieBob Thorton said...

Can any of you honestly say that you would not believe this if it was the only point of view you heard?

I'm too cynical and skeptical about just about everything these days to take anything at face value. Question everything.

I've known and worked with a few Russians, I think they're all nuts.

n.n said...

Clinton staged a war against a civilian population, annexed a territory, and got a blowjob. His wife came, saw, sodomized and aborted. George W. ended the war in Iraq. Obama started WWIII from Tripoli to Kiev in the Spring social justice series, a first-order forcing of catastrophic anthropogenic immigration reform.

n.n said...

That the Nazis and the Commies didnt do each other in during WWII.

We'll always have Nazis, Gazis, and Commies. Go Left, young man, woman, child, baby/fetus, XXX.

Readering said...

Surely there are few populations as cynical about their government as the Russians. I guess for them nazi the ultimate bogey man. But if the Soviets could not suppress interest in the west in the dreary seventies of my one visit, how can Putin?

Michael K said...


Blogger Howard said...

gilbar:. Not only is the US self sufficient in petroleum, we also export 3M bbl/day to the world market.


Howard, even you know that is a lie. Biden, or whoever told him to sign those EOs, shut down much of domestic production and the regime is still trying to stomp it out, pressuring banks to deny loans. The gas prices began to rise long before Putin did anything to Ukraine.

Rusty said...

Ann said: "Can any of you honestly say that you would not believe this if it was the only point of view you heard? "
Most people in this country ,except the majority of democrats, are smarter than you give them credit for.

PhilD said...

"People underestimate the impact WW2 has on the Russian psyche. They bore the brunt of Nazi aggression."

Then they shouldn't have started ww2 hand in hand with Hitler.
As for the 'brunt of aggression', those invaded by the USSR, aka the 'Red Nazis', bore that from 1939 until the collapse of the USSR.
As for the Ukraine, they bore that, with a quasi genocide thrown in, from 1921 till 1991 and again from 2014 onward. It's Russia who is acting here as 'nazis'.

D.D. Driver said...

Can any of you honestly say that you would not believe this if it was the only point of view you heard?

Redherring. It doesn't even matter if its the only point of view you have heard. It it doesn't need to be the "most likely" interpretation of events. It doesn't matter if its crazy on its face, if Dear Leader says something and I trust Dear Leader, I will believe what he tells me.

If the last two years have taught me something its that, if Trump (or sometimes even the My Pillow Guy) made that statement, half of the Althouse readership would instantly believe it to their core. And so it goes.

Also: I love that Antifa in running Russia!🤣

PhilD said...

"Likewise, Russia is pushing denazification and Ukranians insist on sovereignty."


The Ukraine IS a sovereign country fighting an invader. What a way to compare that to 'states rights' in a federal state, especially the 'state right' to own slaves.

And what about "denazification"? Is seeking membership to the European Union and, after 2014, membership to NATO supposed to be a form of nazism? I would think that for 'nazis' to aspire becoming part of these organisations would be rather counter-productive.

Mark said...

Can any of you honestly say that you would not believe this if it was the only point of view you heard?

A LARGE contingent of people here HAVE believed it, and have promoted the Soviet Russian propaganda here -- the talking points parroting what the Russian government has put out -- even those it is NOT the only point of view they have heard.

In fact, they have viciously attacked and berated those who told them of another "point of view," namely, reality.

It's not too late for them to regain and reassert their humanity.

Mark said...

Germans who lived close to the death camps insisted that they never knew. Denied that they could know.

Sometimes ignorance is a choice. That's why the U.S. Army had to march those townspeople into the death camps and rub their noses in it.

Howard said...

The US is energy independent producing 20 million barrels per day. If you had ever worked in domestic energy, Achilles, you would know that higher petroleum prices benefit high skill,high pay badass American workers. Trump colluded with Saudi Arabia and Russia to drive prices down to help kill American exploration and production as part of Putin's plan the soften the US, West and NATO before the Ukraine invasion.

Narr said...

Third Rome, check. I wondered when it would be mentioned. The whole screed looks like a dumbed-down version of Solzhenitsyn's worst notions about Russia as the martyr nation.

One of the ironies here is that, in terms of human suffering and physical devastation, it wasn't Russia and Russians who had it worst in 1941-45 but the people in between--especially Ukrainians.

The predominantly Russian-Russian population was affected mostly at its very Western fringes, and for less time than in areas farther west and with other ethnic majorities.

Typical Kremlinite credit-grab.

Narayanan said...

I gather for Russians it is : there but for winning WW2 Russian slavs would be next on Nazi Hitler's solution bucket list.

Ukraine was on both sides/ changed hands?

and now Putin tells them Russians are now target for West/NATO?!

Rusty said...

Howard said...
"The US is energy independent producing 20 million barrels per day. If you had ever worked in domestic energy, Achilles, you would know that higher petroleum prices benefit high skill,high pay badass American workers. Trump colluded with Saudi Arabia and Russia to drive prices down to help kill American exploration and production as part of Putin's plan the soften the US, West and NATO before the Ukraine invasion."
You are truly an idiot. The more petroleum pumped from the ground the more oil field workers make . The more petroleum piped the more pipe fitters make. The rest is just the worms in your head talking to you.

Drago said...

Mark: "A LARGE contingent of people here HAVE believed it, and have promoted the Soviet Russian propaganda here -- the talking points parroting what the Russian government has put out -- even those it is NOT the only point of view they have heard.

In fact, they have viciously attacked and berated those who told them of another "point of view," namely, reality."

Complete and utter tripe. But you know that. The leftist/Biden triggered virtue signalling by supposed conservatives is somethng to behold.

Drago said...

Good advice for Mark, Bender, Greg et al: the very best time to stop channeling Keith Olberman is always....right now.

But only always.

Drago said...

Its entirely unsurprising that Mark knowingly mischaracterizes the concerns of those who oppose all out war with russia in order for Biden to wag the dog and enrich our US "elites", after all, Mark's allies on this issue like Joe Walsh, Ted Lieu, Ric Wilson, Rachel Maddow, etc, are also quite busy conjuring up and pushing completely fabricated quotes to attack Tucker Carlson and Glenn Greenwald.

Candide said...

“The Ukraine IS a sovereign country fighting an invader. What a way to compare that to 'states rights' in a federal state, especially the 'state right' to own slaves.”

Was not the Confederacy a sovereign country fighting an invader? They had they own government, army, currency.

My main point that there are some aspects of this fight that can be better understood from position of Civil war. Of course Ukranians by and large are not Nazis, just like Confederate soldiers were not slave owners; they were by and large poor people that never owned slaves. They were fighting for their rights to live as they please, just like Ukranians do now. However, the stigma of Slavery was cast on the Confederacy and the Union denied them self-determination. Likewise Russia is trying to deny Ukranians’ claim to sovereignty, holding them collectively responsible for incidences of cooperation between radical Nazi groups and Kiev rulers.

Narr said...

Candide inquires, "Was not the Confederacy a sovereign nation fighting an invader?"

In the eyes of Confederates then and now, obviously. In the eyes of the reality-based, not really.

The Confederacy was engineered by Democrat politicians after a decades-long campaign to whip W/white Southerners into a frenzy of fear about slave uprisings and civil war. Rather like the Red Scares and War Scares ginned up by and/or with the willing participation of Democrats later, in service of their own power.

All over the South, Democrats rushed through votes of secession under extremely murky circumstances.

That's leaving aside the question of the legality of secession, which to me is a hard sell,
but no matter.

Another factor is that the Ukes didn't just declare themselves independent from a larger sovereignty but have been recognized as independent for decades. In OTL, that would be like the CS becoming independent by agreement in 1860 and then invaded by the larger North in 1890, and told they didn't really exist.

Finally on the ACWABAWS. "The stigma of slavery" was NOT cast on the Confederacy. The secessionists claimed that stigma and made it clear that slavery was their precious, loudly and for all the world to notice. See the various state declarations. Zelensky and the Ukes haven't proclaimed that Putin is right after all and admitted (much less proclaimed) being Nazis.

But Candide did wander into an arguably correct conclusion. Good way to end my posting day.



Achilles said...

Howard said...

The US is energy independent producing 20 million barrels per day. If you had ever worked in domestic energy, Achilles, you would know that higher petroleum prices benefit high skill,high pay badass American workers. Trump colluded with Saudi Arabia and Russia to drive prices down to help kill American exploration and production as part of Putin's plan the soften the US, West and NATO before the Ukraine invasion.

You are just pathetic Howard.

Nobody believes a word you say.

PhilD said...

"Of course Ukranians by and large are not Nazis, just like Confederate soldiers were not slave owners"
Apart from this being BS (slavery was part of the South, nazism isn't part of the Ukraine, fighting of a Russian supported 'insurrection' isn't 'nazism')) 'nazism' is very much in the eyes of the beholder, in this case 'nazi'-Russia under its Fuhrer (don't mention 'the war' it can get you in jail). There is no 'stigma' for the Ukraine here and likewise there is no excuse for Russia's actions.

And to repeat, the Ukraine IS a sovereign nation.

Candide said...

“.. the Ukes haven't proclaimed that Putin is right after all and admitted (much less proclaimed) being Nazis.“

Giving status of national heroes to war criminals like Bandera and other OUN mass murderers is tantamount to admission and proclamation of being Nazis.

Perhaps there is a confusion about Nazis in Ukraine, with many people thinking about Hitler and other Germans. Ukraine has its own Nazi heritage, just read about Bandera and OUN.

Narr said...

Thanks, Candide. I know about the OUN and Bandera. The Uke national anthem glorifies Cossacks too. Another casus belli?

Every country in Europe has its murderous national icons and heroes, and the Russian leaders most admired and emulated by Putin weren't exactly saints among men either.

The neighbors of the Ukes and Russians know their histories at least as well as you and I do, and don't have the luxury of analogizing while there's a war on.

jg said...

Let us reflect also on the horrifying effectiveness of our own war propaganda.

Mark said...

Mark's allies on this issue like Joe Walsh, Ted Lieu, Ric Wilson, Rachel Maddow, etc

I don't know which Mark you are talking about, but I'm certain it isn't me. I've heard of Maddow - never watched - but who are the others?

I would sincerely doubt that they are anti-Soviets, as I have always been.