The NYT has an advice column, Social Qs, written by Philip Galanes, that recently published a letter that states a problem I identify with and then frustratingly minimizes the scope of the problem.
Here's the letter:
My husband and I moved to a new city recently. Our next-door neighbors introduced themselves right away, and they were very friendly to us. We hung out a few times. They were fun! Then I added one of them as a friend on Facebook and saw that they spread misinformation about the Covid vaccine, various political figures and people with substance abuse issues. Oof! My husband and I decided we will be polite when we see them, but we won’t drink beers or watch movies with them anymore. Still, they keep inviting us to hang out. I feel awkward refusing their invitations while seeing them across the yard. Should I just explain to them why we don’t want to be friends?
Okay. That is obviously about people who want to throw out a friendship that already exists because they've discovered on-line writings about politics and social issues that don't match their opinions.
The advice-giver, Galanes, observes that these people had no problem with each other in their in-person encounters. Why not wait until they say something in front of you that actually justifies breaking off from them? But he quickly acknowledges that "this may be hard" and moves on to the question — not even raised in the letter! — that the neighbors might not be taking "sensible precautions" against spreading Covid, and that's an independent reason to distance yourself from them. "Your safety is the top priority here — and it may be the easiest way to end this budding friendship."
Why is the NYT advice-giver telling them to do what is "easiest"? The core issue is the value of friendship and whether it is worth maintaining though you have different opinions on important issues. Galanes doesn't even see that issue, though he implicitly takes a position on it and backs shunning the would-be friends using the easiest excuse available. At least the letter writer had the humanity to feel awkward shunning the neighbors!
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88 comments:
"The people next door have a different religion and I can't associate with the godless!"
Politics is one of the dumbest things to base friendships on.
"Then I added one of them as a friend on Facebook and saw that they spread misinformation about the Covid vaccine, various political figures and people with substance abuse issues."
So, the neighbors are aware that the "vaccines" are unsafe and ineffective and they don't like having the city they pay to live in ruined by a "community" of parasitic drug addicts imported and sustained by the Democratic Party, using their tax dollars. Maybe she should wait until she sees her first tax bill, and get a few burglaries and broad-daylight assaults by raving, half-naked strangers under her belt, before she rejects their views. When in Rome ...
Professor Althouse:
You are reading the New York Times. That means I don't have to, so thanks. If you read as far as this nonsense, you've done far more than your duty though and I suggest dialing it back.
Liberals in our lives have proven to be the most prejudiced against others who don’t share the views of their tribe, including blacks and Hispanics. Terrible people who only care about people supporting their sense of entitlement and how their views are unassailable on virtually everything. Status is their top value.
Having a good neighbor is such a boon, it shouldn't be squandered for something as paltry as social media. Even if the neighbor is slow to return the hedge clippers, one tries to maintain the friendship.
How about just snoozing the friend on social media? It isn't likely that any important information will be missed.
The letter writer is a liberal. The complaint about "spreading misinformation" is the tell.
If the neighbors are conservative, they are probably careful about blurting out their unpopular opinions to neighbors. Our neighbor had a "hate is not welcome here" sign on their yard. Like wearing a mask outside, (I'm in the good people team) we take the yard sign to mean 'politically likeminded people welcome; not politically likeminded? Not so much'.
Reading what friends said on FaceBook or elsewhere rarely left me thinking more of them, even when I agreed, and I'm sure the reverse would have been true if I had ever posted. I deleted my FaceBook information in 2016 and haven't looked back. It's better not to know.
they spread misinformation about...
So LW and husband fancy themselves expert virologists and know-it-all arbiters of truth so as to decree what is misinformation and not?
How much you want to bet that among the things they consider "misinformation" is the offensive idea that men cannot be women, etc.?
something was said about "people with substance abuse issues." Who knows what kind of offense that was?
You're not allowed to say anything bad about Hunter Biden.
Misinformation about the covid vaccine means they're telling the truth and not following the mainstream media mantra.
I was friends with a guy that worked for reputable magazine/newspaper and part of his duties are the advice columns.
Shockingly, they are all fake, unless you believe the Penthouse letters are real.
First thought: Letter writer is prejudiced, against people with different beliefs.
Second thought: No, not PREjudiced; not a PRE-judgement. Letter writer was POSTjudiced. They liked the other couple initially, based on how the couple acted. Began to dislike the couple after discovering they held different beliefs.
Third thought: Letter writer IS prejudiced. They PREjudged other couple's beliefs, based on observation of the couple's actions.
Either way, the letter writer is NOT open to inclusiveness and acceptance of diverse opinions.
(Yeah, I know. Letter writer was not upset by beliefs, so much as acts - "spreading of WuHanFlu missinformation.")
Frankly, they'll be doing their neighbors a favor by shunning them.
What a couple of pompous, pretentious assholes. But they're all too recognizable in today's times. And we don't have to guess what their political leanings are. We've all met Leftists just like them.
Shunning is characteristic of a cult -- avoid exposure to heresy by refusing any interaction with those who don't subscribe to the Truth. So no real surprise that left-thinking newcomers to the community have decided to bring their cult-like behavior with them.
There is no use in looking for or trying to salvage a relationship. These people have bright do-not-cross lines. (And the lines are ever shifting.)
I find those types insufferable. Even if we both fall on the same side of the political line, how soon until I blaspheme in their eyes?
Worse would be for them to explain I can be their friend IF I avoid any and all offense.
The neighbors are better off.
The most interesting people I know are the ones with whom I disagree with. They would be better deleting their Facebook account then losing a potential friendship.
What assholes.
The letter writer should go back where they came from.
Althouse said...
We're not told exactly what the neighbors wrote, but at least one thing was about Covid, and that's labeled "misinformation," though we can't tell how bad or how obviously wrong it was.
Because the whole point of the social ostracism campaign is to label people, not information. Actually having to refute the alleged "misinformation" factually is work. It ain't "easy."
Althouse said...
"Why is the NYT advice-giver telling them to do what is "easiest"?
Tribal association.
"My husband and I decided we will be polite when we see them, but we won’t drink beers or watch movies with them anymore."
Lets guess,
"My husband and I" = Democrats
The "them" = not Democrats
Bubble? What bubble?
I spend quite a bit of time trying to teach my high school students that it is OK to disagree with someone, and even to argue with someone, without hating them, or becoming emotionally involved.
Odd situation. The couples must have been on the same page on covid if they socialized together, so the advice seems off. I do agree with the advice to put social media to the side and base treatment on personal interactions. I have never been on Facebook, but my mom was a big presence. She easily separated stuff she read and viewed as a little looney from her actual interactions.
Let me guess:
These people are well meaning, highly tolerant and inclusive liberals.
Back in the day I was a liberal because that meant being open minded. Liberals often bent over backwards to be "fair". When liberalism and elitism became synonymous, things changed. Now it seems that the least tolerant people are those on the Left.
The letter writer and her husband deserve each other. Beer drinkers do not abandon friendships based on such flimsy excuses.
Best advice: Dump the friends who are spreading the (conservative, of course) "misinformation"...do them that huge favor.
The moral is to thoroughly check out the political leanings of your neighbors before you purchase the house.
It’s the modern equivalent of seeing if any black people live nearby.
Unstated: if they continue to socialize with them their liberal friends might find out.
The goal is to ostracize before you are ostracized.
My wife and I no longer have any close couple friends, and our individual personal friendships are almost entirely based on interest in a topic and rarely overlap. I have a lot of old wargaming buds, and she has a lot of newish Outlander cultists, for instance. I've met some of her Euro-friends in our travels, but that's just part of the package I have to tolerate.
She goes by herself, too.
My desire to drink and watch movies or shows with others was exhausted decades ago.
"Why is the NYT advice-giver telling them to do what is 'easiest'?"
Oh, come on, Prof A. The question answers itself. The "advice-giver" isn't in the business of giving advice; at least, advice that might be painful or difficult, embarrassing or likely to blow back on the advice-giver himself. He's there to fuss and preen, and to help his readers fuss and preen, within the walled garden of their perfectly moral certainty.
No WAY is he going to tell them to stop acting like children who would rather pretend their neighbors have ideological cooties, than actually GET TO KNOW THEM in all their complex, interesting, challenging reality. No WAY is he going to ask them to step out of their "safe space" of rigid conformity and sterile silence.
It would be interesting to know what misinformation they are spreading.
That masks don't work? That vaccines and side effects are being hidden (75 year release?)
Etc?
"disinformation" from as recently as a month ago is now just information.
If I was the neighbors I be talking to contractors about a taller fence. I would want nothing to do with the letter writer. I have no problem with their politics and could ignore it. My problem is they would not ignore mine in return.
John LGKTQ Henry
The NYT advice seemed OK until the last paragraph or so. "did you verify their vaccination status" before visiting? And so on.
Wierd.
John LGKTQ Henry
Just wait til they put out their "Trump 2023" yard signs.
The NYT seems to specialize in these type of pieces which mentor the reader on Who They Must Hate.. Damn ugly stuff
I'm guessing that among the beers they shared were a Bell's Sparkleberry and maybe a Stella or a Blue Moon for the more butch of the fellows.
Wouldn't it be funny if the letter was from a gay couple? I jumped to the conclusion that the letter writer was a female because of the reference to a husband, but gay men have husband's too! (Not too many actually but that's another matter)
So what if the gay couple shunned the neighbor couple over their outlook towards covid and political views, but overlooked the fact that their straight neighbors accepted their gay marriage?
The mind (I can't think of the word I want here)
Good grief! I've said many times here that my best friend of 37 years is a flaming liberal, as is his Irish wife, yet that has never been an issue with us. We actually have fun discussions if politics ever comes up. Which is very rarely. If I chose my friends based on their political beliefs, I'd have 80% fewer friends.
Misinformation = masks don't make a difference, vaccines don't stop the spread.
Various political figures = senile Biden, vacuous Kamala.
Substance abuse = Hunter and his laptop.
"At least the letter writer had the humanity to feel awkward shunning the neighbors!"
Alternatively, the letter writer wanted NYT prog validation for the shunning.
Oh FFS - shorter, easier answer: continue the friendship, just don't talk about politics. I do that consistently - have no interest in the subject anyway. Weeds out the people that MUST talk about it.
LOL - The conservatives are fun! But we’re not.
Could be worse, the neighbors could be people who treat the newcomers the way the newcomers are treating them.
There used to be a guideline for life about doing unto others....
There is the obvious answer: Don't waste time reading Facebook or any other social media. The Althouse blog is as close as I get.
As for me, I would tell the neighbors that I am gleefully signing up for Pfizer COVID-19 Vaccine Booster Shot #2. Then I would watch for their reaction. The truth never hurts, particularly with a deadly virus not yet contained.
"misinformation... about people with substance abuse issues" = telling the truth about Hunter Biden.
"The most interesting people I know are the ones with whom I disagree with. They would be better deleting their Facebook account then losing a potential friendship."
Great response, Andy!
"The truth never hurts, particularly with a deadly virus not yet contained."
Deadly? Come on down to Florida. It's not all that deadly down here. Oh, wait....
Obama started the hate machine. Dems accelerated during 2016 election. They continue to add fuel to the fire.
If you hate me without knowing me because I voted for Trump,consider abortion a necessary evil, believe masking should be a choice,rising prices and shutdowns destroy lower middle class and the poor, then F you.
Imagine you're the neighbor and you just happen to read this piece.
Not only do you find out the new couple next door are insufferable assholes, they're sniveling cowards to boot.
As for me, I would tell the neighbors that I am gleefully signing up for Pfizer COVID-19 Vaccine Booster Shot #2. Then I would watch for their reaction. The truth never hurts, particularly with a deadly virus not yet contained.
It was not very long ago when lefties hated Big Pharma.
Now they are the biggest advocates of the Big Pharma-DNC authoritarian state.
The WuFlu effects are truly amazing. It is almost as if the CCP could predict that reaction.
“How Long Can I Avoid Socializing With My Neighbors?“
A: As long as you like. It’s a free country. Adults don’t need permission from anyone—governments, media advice columnists—to form or end or avoid social relationships. Meanwhile, since you seem to be concerned about health information/misinformation and science, are you aware that when you serve beer or wine or cocktails, you are encouraging your guests to consume at least two powerful “known human carcinogens?” You are. And no, I’m not talking about asbestos or Roundup. (Unless I’ve been misled by following the science reported at the American Cancer Society.)
As others above have noted—your new neighbors will likely benefit by being shunned by you. And the sooner the better.
As for me, I would tell the neighbors that I am gleefully signing up for Pfizer COVID-19 Vaccine Booster Shot #2. Then I would watch for their reaction. The truth never hurts, particularly with a deadly virus not yet contained.
gadfly is a good Democrat and probably believes the Russia Hoax.
It's been my experience that people who have good reasons for believing what they believe don't mind having their views challenged because they are comfortable defending them. The people who can't bear to be around people who think differently fear facing the emptiness of their own opinions.
"but at least one thing was about Covid, and that's labeled "misinformation," though we can't tell how bad or how obviously wrong it was. "
And right there is the assumption was in fact wrong. A bit of history. When antibody reports started becoming public in spring(ish) 2019 they consistently said many more people had had covid then thought, 7-10 times more, but most had a very mild reaction or were asymptomatic. Post this in social media and it would be labeled as misinformation and be deleted and might get you in FaceBook jail.
If they won't tell you what they said it is likely that many would agree with it or start asking for details, which might be worse.
"My husband and I decided we will be polite when we see them, but we won’t drink beers or watch movies with them anymore."
I'm sure the friends will be just heartbroken to learn their narrow minded neighbors will no longer associate with them. Just devastated.
I noticed with my first wife (alas, not soon enough) that she would rather be right than be loved. The question often arises in life: would you rather be right, or in relationship? If you would choose always being right and having your comfortable views affirmed over being friends with your friendly neighbors, then you are a damned fool just waiting in hell's anteroom.
I had a good friend ("Had") who was constantly bringing up the latest on Trump according to the NYT and WaPo. She was quick to tell me the latest in the Russian/Trump collusion 'bombshell'. I'd then respond with the information that I had indicating that what she thought was a bombshell probably was not true. The main point was the Alpa Bank/Trump tower communications and General Flynn (he "pleaded guilty"!!!!). Once I said my part, she responded, "well, let's don't discuss politics and just agree to disagree". I'd say "okay" and we would return to other subjects. Then, about five minutes later, she would start with the "Did you know Trump did this?" narrative. She could say all the bad things she wanted about Trump and conservatives, but if I responded with info she didn't agree with, she immediately shut down the conversation with the "let's don't discuss politics" response.
I haven't spoken to her in about four years. It was exhausting. She didn't want to discuss politics, she just wanted to have her say. And, her "say" was whatever WaPo and NYT's bombshell of the day was promoting.
I suspect this neighbor-to-neighbor relationship was something along those lines once the offended neighbor saw the other's FB page. And, by the way, Trump was right. The "fake" media is the enemy of the people.
In my experience, it's usually libs that do the presumption of agreement approach to contentious issues among strangers. For some time now, the potential harm of expressing opinions along these lines has been greater on conservatives. We have medical professionals under pressure to say no wrongthink/report about Gadfly's subscription model jabs. Six or you're not serious, Gadfly.
"We're not told exactly what the neighbors wrote, but at least one thing was about Covid, and that's labeled "misinformation," though we can't tell how bad or how obviously wrong it was."
Presuming it was "bad" or "wrong" is tacit agreeement without information.
My closest friends think and do stuff that is stupid and I disagree with. And vice a versa. Friendships are anchored in acceptance. Not so much their world view
You're surprised that a NYT columnist misses the point or steers a difficult topic to comfortable turf? Come on, Ann, it's Chinatown.
Isnt about 98% of the "information" about covid disinformation? Hasnt Fauci himself given out disinformation? Masks are no good. Riots, not so bad.
Please
From day 1 it was all about politics and that hasnt ended.
Watch come November.
You people are so sad.
Howard: "You people are so sad."
LOL
The chief groomer enabler speaks!
Michael k: "gadfly is a good Democrat and probably believes the Russia Hoax."
Ha!
Gadfly is the prime Althouse blog loser and sucker for the russia russia russia hoax, even outpacing the debunked lunacy pushed by Howard, Freder, Left Bank et al.
Blogger Howard said...
You people are so sad.
Yes, we had such a great country. Progs are busy destroying it. I wonder why ?
"Adults don’t need permission from anyone—governments, media advice columnists—to form or end or avoid social relationships."
Have you heard of the Civil Rights Act? Freedom of association is a dead letter.
Some time ago, when I still took liberals at their word, I read an article celebrating a black guy who had sued to strike down a covenant that prevented a house being sold to what were then known as "negroes". He seemed like a decent, capable person, of admirable courage, and I could understand his position. In a free country. why shouldn't he be able to buy a house, that he could afford, situated where he wanted to live? Something bothered me a little, 'though. Because it occurred to me that he was fighting in the courts to deny his neighbors the right he claimed for himself; the right to live among white people.
IRL, I don't talk politics outside the family. I've never found politics important enough to damage a friendship or work relationship. Most of my family don't care about politics, because it has a minor impact on their lives. I suspect many here may not believe or understand the minor impact, but the reality is, these are people that when politics does have much impact, civil wars would turn hot.
I don't know what "cruel neutrality" would accomplish, but "gentle cynicism" works for me. Assume all politicians are crooks and idiots and everything they say is a lie. Those you like, those on your side may not be as crooked or as stupid or tell lies as big and as brazen, but politics is what it is, and however bad the politicians you hate are, it's no good pretending that your own favorites are that great, either. Some idiot on the internet may believe something stupid about vaccines. You and I believe stupid things as well (sometimes about the same vaccines) It's no good getting mad about any of this. Ours is and always will be an imperfect world.
But with all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be cheerful. Strive to be happy.
I found a copy of "Desiderata" when I was cleaning out the house. It rings true. But of course it's fake. An aspiring poet wrote it in the 1920s and pretended that it had been found in a Baltimore church in 1692. He didn't copyright it -- even though he was a lawyer -- and it passed quickly into the public domain.
"My husband and I moved to a new city recently. Our next-door neighbors introduced themselves right away, and they were very friendly to us."
Why do you think the rest of your new city will be different? Are you planting the seeds of your own loneliness?
When I have friends over for drinks I talk about neutral things, my father told me that "if you are going to have friends at all, you have to allow them one major character flaw." This has served me very well. And has been more entertaining. (No you don't need to be friends with murderers, be reasonable.)
What makes this so strange is these miscreants don't share their "Horrible" opinions with them in person, they just wrote them on facebook. And didn't care that their neighbors read them.
Now that these people know their neighbors "deep dark secret" they can no longer be friends. Strikes me as odd. But whatever. Maybe the solution is don't read your friends facebook pages or sneak around trying to find out what they say online.
Taylor, You may not like what you find.
You people are so sad.
Why is really sad is that Howard thinks his purpose in life is to troll people with different viewpoints.
It is not so much sad as it is truly pathetic.
Slightly off topic, but tangential. The city of Compton has an interesting history. It was founded as a White's only community. When my Dad lived there in the early 1960's it was still mostly White. His yearbook has very few Blacks or Hispanics, most of the sparse non-Whites are actually Asian. (Japanese ancestry by appearance and name)
Then it became famous(or notorious) for being the center of West Coast rap and thug culture in the 1990's. Today the Hispanic gangs have taken over and driven almost all of the Black people out. Majority White to majority Black to majority Hispanic in the space of about fifty years.
Uh, Jupiter? Putting vaccines in quotes and declaring them ineffective and dangerous means you prefer showing other people how smart you are versus doing any actual research. We all know how cool - and trivially easy - that attitude is in life. Please consider the 1% possibility that you might be wrong. It's a useful intellectual exercise, if nothing else. Combine that with talking with people who have actual skin in the game rather than those who make their careers out of rolling their eyes. That used to be for liberals, but now conservatives have joined them. From either side, it's still incredibly bad reasoning.
My challenge would be: your opponents know your arguments and the best of them can answer them pretty easily. That there are stupid opponents who can't is irrelevant. OTOH, you do not know the arguments of your opponents and cannot answer them. You think you do, but a fair fight would expose you in two minutes.
Have people over for beers to discuss it and have an ER or ICU doc (or statistician or half-dozen other specialties) along to judge. Skin in the game. It matters. You can put up websites of nutcases and retired flakes in response, I know. We're all so impressed with that, sure.
Skin in the game. Listen to no others, and don't cut corners that they sorta kinda maybe have skin in the game.
they spread misinformation about ... people with substance abuse issues.
They spread information about Hunter Biden.
Gahrie said -
I spend quite a bit of time trying to teach my high school students that it is OK to disagree with someone, and even to argue with someone, without hating them, or becoming emotionally involved.
I've known Gahrie since I was 15 (it's pure coincidence that we both read this blog - we haven't seen one another in person in over 30 years), and we have always disagreed about Israel and the Palestinians. There is SO much more to life - and even when we've been on that subject, I've always been able to respect his thoughtful commentary, and to appreciate him as a friend.
@Jamie:
we have always disagreed about Israel and the Palestinians.
I bet not anymore. I switched sides when the Intifada occurred. The Palestinians truly never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity. If instead of throwing bombs, and killing Israelis, they had sat down in the middle of the street and practiced non-violent passive resistance, Palestine in some form would exist today. I am actually quite a Zionist today. I think the Palestinians should become Israeli citizens or move on. It's long past time to close the refugee camps and settle the issue.
Now if we could only get beyond nuclear bullets...
"My husband and I decided we will be polite when we see them, but we won’t drink beers or watch movies with them anymore."
Perhaps one of the issues was that her husband was having a bit too much fun drinking beer and watching movies with the husband of the other couple while sthe wife couldn't feel like she could chatter with the wife about all the people and things she is judgmental about without push back. I suspect the phrase "we decided" actually means the wife decided that hubby might be having too much fun, uh, drinking beer and watching movies with a deplorable without her.
Was it FAUCI misinformation?? Because Fauci himself has flip flopped so many times, what he once claimed was true, is now misinformation because HE was wrong. People are dumb. If you diss people you have fun with, because of what they post at FB, you don't deserve to have any friends. Everybody has opinions, stop trying to force everybody to have the same one.
FullMoon said...
Obama started the hate machine. Dems accelerated during 2016 election. They continue to add fuel to the fire.
If you hate me without knowing me because I voted for Trump,consider abortion a necessary evil, believe masking should be a choice,rising prices and shutdowns destroy lower middle class and the poor, then F you.
4/23/22, 3:00 PM
THIS^^^ 100% THIS^^^^^^^
No one who saw the actual Russian social media posts—or for that matter looked at the DNC Wikileak material— can possibly believe that Trump owed his election to Russian interference. It was James Comey’s announcement that the investigation of the hillary emails was being reopened that may have pushed Trump over the top.
SocializIng with neighbors is often a mistake. If you end up not liking them, it is difficult to disengage gracefully. We take the polite indifference route and it’s always worked for us. Friendship is best when it’s rooted in common interests or experience rather than random location. But that advice comes from a mildly antisocial person so it might not be right for everyone.
So if Althouse identifies with this issue, then does that mean she is on the receiving end of behavior similar to the Letter-Writer's? Friendships ended because of this blog? And if so, is it her own deviations from liberal orthodoxy, or is it the comments section with its frank criticisms of liberal viewpoints that is cited? If anything is ever cited.
Facebook is a substance abuse problem.
Take all the shot's you want, gadfly. You're still gonna get the Wuhan flu. Eventually everybody is going to get it.
Diversity is practically worshipped by the left, but when they discover people who think differently, their go-to response is: How can we shun these infidels, without it being awkward?
The vast majority of self identified Hispanics are white.
57% of the people speak Spanish and 31% English.
“Puritanism is the haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be having a good time.” – Mencken
To our latter-day political Puritans, just the realization that someone, somewhere may be having or expressing an “incorrect” thought is intolerable. How can this be stopped, something must be done!
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