"Another described shooting a civilian off his bicycle, echoing a photograph of a dead man next to a bicycle that drew international condemnation.... Sources in Germany said the 'material suggests that the troops spoke of the atrocities as though they were simply discussing their everyday lives.' Officials reportedly said that this 'indicates that the murder of civilians has become a standard element of Russian military activity, potentially even part of a broader strategy.'"
From "Russians intercepted ‘casually discussing’ killing of civilians/Evidence of atrocity mounts as West pushes UN to punish Putin" (London Times).
UPDATE: "The U.N. General Assembly voted Thursday to suspend Russia from the Human Rights Council amid mounting concerns that Moscow’s troops are committing grave war crimes in Ukraine. The vote came as global outrage over the killings of civilians in the Kyiv suburb of Bucha intensified" — WaPo reports.
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65 comments:
Trying to reclaim part of historical Russia? Ukrainians knew better. But then again civil wars can be the most vicious.
It's just the men acting like women.
Don’t trust any of these actors to be telling the truth.
Atrocities in war...news at 11.
It's the Russians vs the Angels.
Not.
When this war finally ends there will be some interesting reorganization of world economies.
Is it worse to kill civilians in a war than after you gain control of the country, declare it part of Russia and kill them in camps or by civilian authorities like the Soviet Union and China did/does? The world cries for this, for the Nazi concentration camp victims, but ignores the millions murdered in the Soviet gulags, the Holodomor, the Chinese "Great Leap Forward". Is is because those people were subjects/citizens so murdering them was acceptable to the 'elite'?
The Ukrainians know that many/most will be murdered by the Russians if the Russians gain control and NATO, the UN, the US, will all tut tut but ignore it since it is happening to Russian "subjects".
First, every side in every war commits "war crimes". Including the USA in WW II. GI's shot unarmed POW's in Sicily, Italy, and the ETO. It happens.
Second, I see no evidence there is a pattern of either side commiting war crimes as stated policy. However, Zelensky's proclamation that civilians should take up arms against the Russians, and handing out AK-47s, was in itself a war crime and its amazing that more civilians have not been killed as a result.
Third, Russia has been VERY careful to limit civilian losses. With total control of the air they could have blasted Kiev, Kharlov, and every major city into rubble. BTW, that's the USA way. We bombed serbia for days, and bombed Iraq for weeks prior to our invasion.
This war needs to end. The ukraine cannot win. All these people are dying for nothing.
When the Russians were doing this same thing in Afghanistan in the 70s, the Mujahideen started to fight back American arms and retribution taken from the Dark Ages. They were darkly brutal to those Russian soldiers. So much so that the soldiers were entirely fearful of being there and could not get out of there quick enough. Those that made it back are a psychological mess (as shown in interviews in the book, "Zinky Boys", which is available through the Althouse portal, I'm sure).
The Russians, now under the'70s' mindset of Putin seem to have not learned a thing. Ukrainians will not forget.
As for the UN Human Rights Council, their history is one of filling the slots with countries that are the least free, the most openly brutal, bigoted, or corrupt. And while they load up with brutal dictatorships who slaughter their own people, this same Council has managed to condemn Israel more times than all other nations combined.
Think of the UN as a Country Club with a 'selective' membership, designed to host dinners and cocktail parties, but not much else.
Already we are treated here to the apologists, the excusers, the enablers, the collaborators, the complicit with atrocities.
Earlier they said it was all CIA and Nazi Ukraine propaganda. Now they have shifted to "So what if it's true. Everyone does it."
Christopher Browning and other scholars have shown just how much--i.e. a WHOLE LOT--was known by the Brits as the Einsatzgruppen did their work and reported back by radio in broken code.
But back then the Western code-breaking successes had to be as carefully hidden as the Nazis tried to hide their crimes.
Not so today.
As for atrocities in war, sure, they happen. But smart leaders and serious soldiers know that too many too often and too open have a galvanizing effect on the natives ("creating more terrorists than we kill") and a demoralizing effect on the troops over time.
I suspect that the Russian morale is pretty shitty right now, and if history is any guide the manifestations will show in the rear first, as the replacements start to understand what they're expected to do, and how unready the first echelons were.
Of course the Ukes are suffering too, but the defensive is the stronger form of war again.
So no reports on the Ukrainians killing Russian POWs and bragging about it, confirmed by the New York Times, suspiciously near Bucca, but claims of atrocities committed by the Russians are published uncritically. It's almost as if we are being dragged into a war.
This is the war Joe Biden, Amy Klobichar, Lindsay Graham, and ... soul hopefully burning in Hell, John McCain wanted, so enjoy it, nobody is lying to you. Perish the thought.
It's not our war, its the globalists' war.
Perhaps the Un can send Putin a strongly worded letter?
Teh corrupt Biden family is on it!
The article mentions the UN. Does anybody remember that worthless piece of crap, the peace-in-our-time machine that oils itself?
The Russians have never exhibited “control of the air” during this entire war.
Beyond that, here's a very interesting article holding that “Ukraine Can Win This War” — even beyond just kicking the invading Russians out of every last scrap of Ukrainian territory that they still occupy.
So what does the world do now?
Is Crook Biden on it? or off leash is he still Saying stupid shit that only emboldens Putin...
Russian being Russians. Dog bites man. And the UN supposedly cares??
Even our soldiers have occasionally strayed from the righteous path. Nevertheless, despite what their educators have told our children, the US has been a force for decency in the world and in war. That may end soon given the sociopaths currently in charge.
"This war needs to end. The ukraine [sic] cannot win. All these people are dying for nothing."
Things must be looking bleak from Vlad's Kremlin window for rcocean to be unleashed just six weeks into what was sold to the oligarchs as a two-week war.
What's Natalie Jaresko up to these days?
John LGBTQBNY Henry
“Already we are treated here to the apologists, the excusers, the enablers, the collaborators, the complicit with atrocities.
Earlier they said it was all CIA and Nazi Ukraine propaganda. Now they have shifted to "So what if it's true. Everyone does it."”
That’s Trumpism/ Putinism speaking.
Eight years since the Western-backed Biden/Maidan/Slavic Spring, two years under the current regime of Kiev-aligned military, paramilitary axis that disenfranchised Ukrainians, denied essential services, and prosecuted a war against civilians and civil targets.
Now they feint an empathetic response. WaPoo reports: the bigot, you say.
the war Joe Biden, Amy Klobichar, Lindsay Graham, and ... soul hopefully burning in Hell, John McCain wanted,
The axis actors in the Obama Spring series of coups without cause, social justice without borders, catastrophic anthropogenic immigration reform, and redistributive change from Baghdad 2.0 to Tripoli to Kiev, a world war that crosses three continents. The Slavic Spring, eight years, two years under the current regime, in progress.
It's not our war, its the globalists' war.
In their forward-looking, fair-minded conception, all's fair in lust and abortion.
Blogger Mark said...
Already we are treated here to the apologists, the excusers, the enablers, the collaborators, the complicit with atrocities.
Earlier they said it was all CIA and Nazi Ukraine propaganda. Now they have shifted to "So what if it's true. Everyone does it."
Some of us are treated to the propaganda swallowers. The desire for war seems to be more intense on the left as a way to hide their incompetence. I will grant that there are plenty on the so-called right who seem happy to risk nuclear war.
Wasn't it nice to have four years of peace and even an accommodation between Arabs and Israel?
Like a dog returning to its vomit, the Putin and Russian apologists always come back.
"Everybody does it!"
"We do it too!"
"The Russians have been very careful to avoid civilian casualties!"
"Biden crime family!"
Gah.
It's the Russian way of war--just ask the women in Berlin circa 1945 and 46.
Blogger BADuBois said...
Like a dog returning to its vomit, the Putin and Russian apologists always come back.
The lefty Biden voters are all in for war. Having never served in the military, they are certain that only deplorables and domestic terrorists will have to fight it. The present criminal regime running this country has considerable similarity to the Putin regime. My wife has said she is tempted to send Putin a letter asking him, if he decides to send a thermonuclear ICBM, would he please aim it at DC.
"It's not our war, its the globalists' war."
We aren't actually fighting this war, the Ukrainians and the Russians are. As long as the Ukrainians are willing to resist, I see no reason why we can't help them with weapons and intelligence. It seems a small price to pay to deter Putin from further military adventurism.
It was not Long ago that Democrats were telling us to shoot our officers.
"It's the Russian way of war--just ask the women in Berlin circa 1945 and 46."
That's why the Soviet War Memorial in Berlin is nicknamed "The Tomb of the Unknown Rapist."
No one recognizing the urgency of defending Ukraine wants war. But neither will they shirk from it or run away in the vain belief that we can remain untouched by the evils of the Soviet Russians. Neither are we so unfeeling and lacking in basic humanity and decency as to be dismissive of the suffering of others.
On the other hand, it is precisely the apologists, the appeasers and isolationists who, in their enabling and complicity, ensure that war will continue and that in the end we will all suffer.
More Crisis Actors feeding the Western propaganda machine to cover Hunter Biden's laptop and his career with the ChiComs.
This fake news War was started by Joe Biden when he caused a domestic oil boom in the USA which forced Putin's hand.
In other news, POWs should not be used in this way. Unless they are John McCain whom we hate more than the Viet Congolese.
The only reason democrats care about Ukrainians must be because Ukrainians are white and they are racists.
A few months ago the democrats were telling us how heroic Joe Biden was for abandoning US Citizens and Afghani women/children to the Taliban barbarians to be raped and murdered. They were all Brown Muslims though so democrats didn't give two shits about that.
Now Anyone who doesn't suck up everything the media says about this war is a traitor.
You are stupid vicious shitheads. Nobody likes you. You are going to get crushed in the elections.
I look forward to the 20-30% of the country that still supports Biden getting the backlash they deserve.
The Inga's and the Mark's are too stupid to notice how obvious their hypocrisy is to the rest of us.
Mark said...
No one recognizing the urgency of defending Ukraine wants war. But neither will they shirk from it or run away in the vain belief that we can remain untouched by the evils of the Soviet Russians. Neither are we so unfeeling and lacking in basic humanity and decency as to be dismissive of the suffering of others.
On the other hand, it is precisely the apologists, the appeasers and isolationists who, in their enabling and complicity, ensure that war will continue and that in the end we will all suffer.
Now do Afghanistan and Iraq you piece of shit.
"More Crisis Actors feeding the Western propaganda machine to cover Hunter Biden's laptop and his career with the ChiComs.
This fake news War was started by Joe Biden when he caused a domestic oil boom in the USA which forced Putin's hand.
In other news, POWs should not be used in this way. Unless they are John McCain whom we hate more than the Viet Congolese."
That's the kind concise logical argument one can only get by ingesting a strong hallucinogen.
Nobody thinks the Biden Regime or their shitty supporters care at all about the people of Ukraine.
The people of Ukraine are just bloody shirts for you all to wave around and attack us.
When we were in Afghanistan and Iraq trying to help those people you showed your true colors.
Nobody believes you are any different now.
You are shitheads and everyone knows it.
On the other hand, it is precisely the apologists, the appeasers and isolationists who, in their enabling and complicity, ensure that war will continue and that in the end we will all suffer.
There are way too many people, usually those who know no history, that take all their knowledge from Hitler and 1938-39. That was an unusual episode in history. Those who proclaim their virtue by encouraging others to fight are more typical. I have respect for those Ukrainians who are doing the fighting. I have none for the Ukrainians who conspired with the US State Department or CIA to bribe American politicians like Biden and who then precipitated this confrontation with Putin. There is a flood of propaganda from both sides. I can understand how Democrats who swallow propaganda like CRT, BLM and LGBTQ all day long are most susceptible.
Yeah, the Russians don't "control the air" because of the great Ukrainian air force. Like the Ghost pilot of Kiev. LOL. Anyway, ever heard of missiles.
Expected response: "Well, when i say control of the air, i mean my super special personal version of the phrase" or "I assumed your use of the phrase meant something incredibly dumb so I could disagree with it".
Okey dokey. that's the intertubes.
Agree this is not our war. It is the Neo-con Globalist war. They wanted it, and Putin finally gave it them. Now, the globalist want to drag it out as long as possible. They don't care how many Ukrainians die.
Lefties almost always oppose any war that the US is involved in, no matter what the justification. They also accuse US leaders and troops of war crimes on a regular basis.
Why is the Russia-Ukraine war different?
Maybe they are instinctively following their overwhelming TDS urges. They know that the Democrats are screwed this election and they have to raise the Trump-Putin bogeyman to motivate their own troops (dead and alive) to go to the polls.
I am not sure about describing our leftist friends as cynically dishonest or stupid. maybe I should embrace the power of "and".
Just a bit off topic but Bob Sykes is now rooting for the Russians and beleives they will win shattering the Ukrainian military.
Scroll to comments:
https://neveryetmelted.com/2022/04/06/putins-next-move/
If only the Ukes knew how frantically some commenters here are waving their white hankies on their behalf, they'd cease all their foolishness out of sheer admiration.
Viet Nam, Afghanistan now Ukraine. If you don't know who is trying to kill you, civilians will die. Ukraine armed its civilians, it knew this would happen, the leadership wanted this to happen. Dead civilians make powerful TV. Powerful TV shapes the attitudes of the West.
Are they raping nuns yet, or is that pretty much acceptable behavior these days?
The Russians looted Ukrainians' iPhones and Macbooks and now the looters are being tracked with Find My Phone apps. The stuff is up in Belarus right now.
The US national security interest is that Russia has reverted to primitive ideas of imperial dominion and won't stop until it loses a war of expansion somewhere and so its bestial behavior comes to an end. Why not try and stop Russia in the Ukraine since the Ukraine is willing to fight? Besides the Ukraine is fighting to remain free from the crushing Russian police state and if it holds out then Russians will be humiliated that they have to live in a police state but the Ukrainians, their cousins, got away to the chance to improve. You always notice what's going on in the family more. This might become the Great Unpatriotic War.
Moreover, Russia is a Chinese ally and this Chinese ally's army got trounced around Kiev which alters the strategic balance against China. We read that Russia is putting the Cadet corps from military schools into action because it needs too many officers to supply them from the existing ranks after five weeks of war. The Chinese read that, too.
There is extensive video made by Ukrainian national guard when they entered Bucha on April1. The video is about 8 minutes long and doesn’t show any dead bodies anywhere. This video is being blocked on all sites now.
I suppose that does make more sense than shooting them first and asking questions afterward.
Americans have always wanted purity, perfect heroes and perfect villains, absolute good and absolute evil, and the world doesn't always give us that. Some parts of the world never satisfy our craving for perfect good fighting pure evil. Ukraine isn't perfect, but Putin is the aggressor.
Call the Ukrainians corrupt or oppressive: Putin is more corrupt and more oppressive. The nations of Eastern Europe have been better at asserting their independence and opposing globalism than the traditional Western powers have.
Making out that Ukraine is some mindless puppet of Soros doesn't do them justice.
It's Putin's war and he has responsibility for it, but that doesn't mean that Biden escapes blame for his stupidity and incompetence and his role in creating the current mess. The fact that we are governed by arrogant imbeciles doesn't make Putin some kind of gallant fighter for Christian civilization either.
You also know that if someone supports cutting US oil and natural gas production they want Putin to get more money and be able to make the war lasts longer.
They don’t care about the Ukrainian people. If they did they would not support Putin getting rich off of Biden’s high oil prices.
Inga- this is Biden's war. You might want to wake up and realize Trump isn't president anymore.
Remember when Hillary gave Russia a re-set button?
Then she secretly pocket millions From secret Russian uranium deals.
The Biden family made mega bucks off both Ukraine and Russia + China.
Temujin 12:14.
The UN is that pathetic.
Swetnick must create a false story in her head - Because no one here is pro-Putin.
Swetnick, on the other-hand, is Biden cultist/ NBC cultist, which makes her pro-Putin by default.
Follow the money.
That is really sad.
This fake news War was started by Joe Biden when he caused a domestic oil boom in the USA which forced Putin's hand.
Oil boom ? Speaking of fake news. Biden and the enviro crazies have done all they can to kill off the US energy independence.
"...a man believed to be a Russian soldier..."
Anyone who does not take this as prima facie evidence of Russian evil and lawlessness is labeled a pro-Putin apologist.
Sorry, no sale. I believe that Russia's invasion was and is an act of war, and I support the Ukranians.
But uncorroborated hearsay allegations are propaganda. Intended as such. You don't have to stop thinking to take a principled position in support of the Ukranians here.
"Wasn't it nice to have four years of peace...?"
Hahahaha!
Now do Afghanistan and Iraq
I already did. Years ago. And you people didn't give a crap about the evil done to innocent women and girls in Afghanistan by the Taliban or by innocent Christians and others by ISIS in Iraq and Syria. Like now, you people were the real inhuman, self-centered, POSs.
And you pants-wetting dumb asses will probably continue to think that I'M the lefty.
Yes, it is true that this place has been taken over by the isolationists, the nutcase anti-globalists - neither of which are genuine conservative - the echoers of the Russian government (even AFTER undeniable concrete evidence is produced of Russian atrocities), the new commenters repeating all of the foregoing (who very likely could be posting from Moscow).
Meanwhile, there are a handful of decent people, which includes some who are the polar opposite of me politically.
Then there are the people who usually comment all the time, people I thought good and decent, but who on this subject have maintained a complete COWARDLY SILENCE in the face of the monstrous crap being spewed here. They too are COMPLICIT. You too should be ashamed.
The American people don't care much about Muslims and their self-inflicted miseries, Achilles.
Many tried to (not me, to be honest) and concluded it was a waste of time and effort.
Try to move on.
If it is in the newspaper it must be true. They wouldn't lie.
Many times I long for the days when my simple young ignorance allowed me to believe everything in the media.
Russians being Russians. They pillaged and raped their way across Eastern Europe in World War II. For all our faults, Germans who had an option did all they could to surrender to us instead of the Russians.
I wonder how Afghanistan voted.
Bender said...
'Yes, it is true that this place has been taken over by the isolationists, the nutcase anti-globalists - neither of which are genuine conservative - the echoers of the Russian government (even AFTER undeniable concrete evidence is produced of Russian atrocities), the new commenters repeating all of the foregoing (who very likely could be posting from Moscow).
Meanwhile, there are a handful of decent people, which includes some who are the polar opposite of me politically.
Then there are the people who usually comment all the time, people I thought good and decent, but who on this subject have maintained a complete COWARDLY SILENCE in the face of the monstrous crap being spewed here. They too are COMPLICIT. You too should be ashamed.
Tim in Vermont said, "This is the war Joe Biden, Amy Klobichar, Lindsay Graham, and ... soul hopefully burning in Hell, John McCain wanted, so enjoy it, nobody is lying to you. Perish the thought."'
Tim is right. You voted for this. This did not have to happen. While you decry the attitudes of the more conservative people here own up to the fact that your stupidity and arrogance brought this world to us. So when this thing escalates to the point where the rest of the world is brought in on it don't blame Trump. Look in the mirror.
By anti- globalist you mean… trying to maintain self- sufficiency, a population of citizens- legal citizens- and a foreign policy that takes care of self first?
I’m as peeved as the next guy over this unjust war. Yet- look at this administration! They have no clue- no clue! More interested in a diverse military by which I mean: catering to folks so their feelings won’t get hurt.
Jesus, take the wheel…
Mark said...
Now do Afghanistan and Iraq
I already did. Years ago. And you people didn't give a crap about the evil done to innocent women and girls in Afghanistan by the Taliban or by innocent Christians and others by ISIS in Iraq and Syria. Like now, you people were the real inhuman, self-centered, POSs.
And you pants-wetting dumb asses will probably continue to think that I'M the lefty.
I was there you shithead.
I helped put girls in school.
You did fuckall. You are worthless. Your protestations mean shit to me. You are the Putin supporter here. You are making Putin rich with high gas prices and feeding him money through the Iran deal. You supported Biden's "limited incursion" into Ukraine.
You made this war happen.
You.
Isolationists, nut-case anti-globalists, echoers of Russian spin, new commenters possibly from Moscow, the odd decent sort . . . it's getting hard to tell the players without a program.
Anyhoo, it's not as if anybody here has any ability to affect what is decided by TPTB.
If we were Ukrainians I would be free to leave (older than 60) but my son (36 in a week) would be required to stay. And if he didn't grab a gun I'd disown his ass.
If we were Russians we'd probably just keep our mouths shut and hope for a quick end to the regime.
Bender, what is it you really want? If everybody will do what you want and repeat what you say, what will that accomplish?
If Russians are truly as evil as you insist they are, then no intermediate solutions are possible and there is no recourse but start the global war right now. Ultimately, people refusing to repeat after you and insisting to look at all the evidence are trying to postpone the global war for as long as possible and maybe find a way out of this without everyone being dead.
Or are you simply bullying people for your own gratification? So tell us, are you just a selfish prick, or are you like an Angel of Death or something?
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