March 8, 2022

"There is a longstanding tradition with the U.S. left as well as in Europe that NATO has played a role... in emphasizing militarized solutions when diplomacy could lead to more long-term stability."

"It feels a little bit absurd for people to be acting like it’s a political crime to criticize NATO."

Said Ashik Saddique, a member of the Democratic Socialists of America’s National Political Committee, quoted in "Socialists’ Response to War in Ukraine Has Put Some Democrats on Edge/The Democratic Socialists of America’s view that U.S. 'imperialist expansionism' through NATO fueled Russia’s invasion has created challenges for politicians aligned with the group" (NYT).

After the Russian invasion of Ukraine, the D.S.A. took the position that the United States should "withdraw from NATO and to end the imperialist expansionism that set the stage for this conflict."

With a majority of Americans backing Ukraine as it struggles to repel a bloody, often live-streamed Russian invasion, the D.S.A.’s desire for a policy discussion about NATO appears to have sown unease in campaign circles: None of the nine New York City candidates the D.S.A. endorsed this year would consent to an interview on the topic, even as more centrist Democrats are now using the subject as a cudgel. 

35 comments:

NotWhoIUsedtoBe said...

Well, NATO didn't prevent the war, did it? What's it for, if not to prevent war?

We didn't need NATO to guarantee Ukraine's sovereignty. If we were serious about it, we could have signed a bilateral treaty instead of pretending that all 30 NATO members would someday agree to include Ukraine.

We signed a Charter of Understanding with Ukraine about future NATO membership on November 10, 2021. Did that make Ukraine safer?

Don't sign provocative agreements unless you can deter the likely response. Sanctions are not effective deterrents. Putin wouldn't have attacked if there were sufficient military forces to make a war unwinnable. If we weren't willing to protect Ukraine, we shouldn't have encouraged them to pursue NATO membership. NATO is simply a list of countries we'll go to war to protect from Russia.

If we aren't willing to go to war for Ukraine

WHY THE HELL DID WE ENCOURAGE THEM TO TRY TO JOIN NATO?

The US military is the only NATO military that matters when it comes to fighting Russia. Sorry, but Spain isn't going to be much help.

Iman said...

It’s early but the popcorn is popping.

Sebastian said...

"It feels a little bit absurd for people to be acting like it’s a political crime to criticize NATO."

On the left and the right.

Yours truly questioned an allied NATO ambassador directly many years ago on the rationale for its continued existence. He had no answer--really, a very articulate diplomat was at a loss. The notion that Ukraine should be part of it, however halfheartedly promoted, was always insane. Of course, in a better world, it would also be insane for the Russians to take umbrage at the very possibility of Ukraine joining another "bloc." But that is not the world we live in. It would have cost us and the Europeans little to deny firmly that Ukraine will be part of any such bloc. On the other hand, helping to overthrow an elected pro-Russian government was a deliberate provocation. We thought we could get away with it at little cost. We were wrong.

Howard said...

Just because we had a big hand in causing this problem with Putin by the expansion of NATO, it doesn't mean that we back off of the murderous tyrant we helped create. We broke it, now we got to help fix it.

Meade said...

“ We broke it, now we got to help fix it.”

Whaddaya mean WE, neo-lib con guy?

gspencer said...

"It feels a little bit absurd for people to be acting like it’s a political crime to criticize NATO."

Or to criticize Islam, Muslims, blacks, unions (esp. teachers unions), BLM, CRT, abortion, big government, welfare, lack of personal responsibility, and on and on, so long as they're protected clients of the left.

BUMBLE BEE said...

There's this... https://ycharts.com/indicators/fertilizers_index_world_bank
An interesting switch for NATO... defense -> offense?

Mike Sylwester said...

During recent years, many liberals engaged in anti-Russia hysteria.

Supposedly, Russia was meddling in our elections by spending literally tens of thousands of dollars to buy Facebook ads (e.g. Jesus arm-wrestling Satan) that enabled Donald Trump to defeat Hilary Clinton in our 2016 Presidential election.

Supposedly, Russian Intelligence had recruited Michael Flynn, the former Director of the Defense Intelligence Agency, as a secret agent of influence.

Supposedly, Russia's RT television network was broadcasting anti-fracking news stories in order to brain-wash Americans.

And so forth and so on.

On the left side of our country's political spectrum, it was the far left that criticized this liberal hysteria. In this regard, special credit should go to the Nation magazine and to the Consortium News website.

Mark said...

DSA sounds like the commenters here.

BUMBLE BEE said...

Novel Approach... let Europe handle Europe.

Iman said...

Shorter Howeee:

“Thunderbirds are go!”

BUMBLE BEE said...

Sorry... NATO Link
https://niccolo.substack.com/p/fuck-it-russias-final-break-with?utm_source=url&s=r
Geez, with what Joe left Afghanistan and shipments to NATO, Mark's stock portfolio gotta be climbin.

NotWhoIUsedtoBe said...

Europe handling Europe left to two world wars. I prefer the US. It's not like we'll avoid another war, so we should prevent it.

BUMBLE BEE said...

Why, them Ruskies even got to Tulsi Gabbard... https://www.foxnews.com/media/tulsi-gabbard-investigates-her-political-ousting-with-tucker-carlson-why-did-no-one-question-hillary-clinton
Hillary's at it again!

BUMBLE BEE said...

Corona over... Cue the Ruskies!

BUMBLE BEE said...

We Are The World... We Are The Future... Sing along kiddies!
Till India and China firm up with Russia.

Mikey NTH said...

No matter the question, blame America first.

Should change their name to Simps for Russia.

CJ said...

Not a socialist and rarely agree with them, but this is a reasonable point of view. Globalism is the imperialism of today. American intelligence agencies, NATO and the NGOs pushed out Yanukovych and installed Zelenskyy. The long-term effect will be to drive together all the countries outside the globalist cabal, starting with Russia, India, and China.

Michael K said...

We broke it, now we got to help fix it.

Howard ignores his role in "electing" Biden, which is why this is occurring. Even Democrats (sane ones) agree that this would not have happened if Trump was kin office now.

Mike Sylwester said...

At the very end of the Obama Presidency, the US Government published an Intelligence Community Assessment titled Assessing Russian Activities and Intentions in Recent US Elections.

Major villains in this assessment were the RT television network and Sputnik magazine. The executive summary stated:

Russia's state-run propaganda machine — comprised of its domestic media apparatus, outlets targeting global audiences such as RT and Sputnik, and a network of quasi-governmental trolls — contributed to the influence campaign by serving as a platform for Kremlin messaging to Russian and international audiences.

Fortunately for US Democracy and for international diplomacy, the RT television network now is being shut down in the USA.

DirecTV expels RT from its lineup, dealing a major blow to the Russia-backed outlet in the US, dated March 1, 2022

Excerpts from the article:

DirecTV is cutting ties with RT, the Russia-backed television network infamous for promoting Vladimir Putin's agenda.

A spokesperson for the US satellite carrier told CNN on Tuesday that the company had already been reviewing whether to renew the outlet's carriage agreement, which was due for expiration later this year, and that Russia's unprovoked war on Ukraine sped up its decision.

"In line with our previous agreement with RT America, we are accelerating this year's contract expiration timeline and will no longer offer their programming effective immediately," the DirecTV spokesperson said in a statement. ....

The action from DirecTV is the latest in a string of moves by television companies and technology giants to sever ties with the channel, reducing the Kremlin's ability to peddle its narrative at a pivotal time when its international standing has fallen.

YouTube, TikTok, and Meta, the parent company of Facebook and Instagram, each separately announced on Monday and Tuesday that they have blocked RT's social media accounts in Europe. Roku, the company that sells hardware which allows users to stream content through the internet, said that it would also bar RT in Europe. ...

RT is an international media organization that first launched in 2005. It provides updates and analysis on current events from a stridently pro-Russian point of view. RT operates nine networks, including RT America, and the video news agency Ruptly.

Since its inception, RT has been criticized as a propaganda mouthpiece for the Russian government and its leader, Vladimir Putin. In recent weeks, the outlet has come under heightened scrutiny for its coverage of Russia's conflict, which has escalated into an unprovoked war, with Ukraine.

RT has also aired sharp criticisms of the US government and promoted conspiracy theories that sow distrust in its institutions. Nevertheless, some high-profile US figures have chosen to work for the organization, such as the late Larry King. ...

BUMBLE BEE said...

For those viewers too young to remember Randolph Scott movies... this is what was known as a "Box Canyon".

Rusty said...

"Howard ignores his role in "electing" Biden, which is why this is occurring."
He hopes you didn't notice. It's like he believes that NATO sprang up for no other reason than to harass Russia. Yes. He honestly has been told that you are that dumb.

rcocean said...

THe Left has always put the attainment of Power over Left-wing principle. So, the Left has decided to ditch their anti-war rhetoric for now. Gosh, color me shocked.

No one on the Left really believes anything except hating certain people and getting/keeping power.

Just asking questions (Jaq) said...

"ust because we had a big hand in causing this problem with Putin by the expansion of NATO, it doesn't mean that we back off of the murderous tyrant we helped create. We broke it, now we got to help fix it."

"Waist deep, in the big muddy, and the big fool said to push on...."

"It's not for 'you people' to reason why, yours is but to do and die"

Just asking questions (Jaq) said...

I am going to consider this a won argument, and not worry about the opinion of any of the normie idiots who can't see how Biden either blundered into this war, or was steered into it by people in his administration who aren't senile.

Amexpat said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Howard said...

You sound exactly like an entitled white woman acting like they aren't benefiting from White Male Privilege. See Bill Burrs hilarious bit on this.

Of course you snowflakes are blameless. Irresponsibility is the primary benefit that Trump provides to you minions.

Blogger Meade said...

“ We broke it, now we got to help fix it.”

Whaddaya mean WE, neo-lib con guy?

n.n said...

Not imperialist expansion, but rather social justice, social progress with "benefits", and Pro-Choice religion (i.e. "ethical", opportunistic, selective, avoidance) a Slavic Spring.

John henry said...

I learned of nato in the 60s.

I didn't understand them and don't understand now why the US is a member.

I blame Wilson and fdr

John Henry Henry

wildswan said...

I've had Gaddis' biography of George Kennan for several years but couldn't get into it. About four days into the war I started reading it and finished it very quickly. It's really an easy read once the issues it deals with seem vital again. And they are vital in that a lot of the arguments you hear these days have been suddenly dug up, like a mammoth from perma-frost, from the old days of the Soviets and NATO. Kennan's deepest conviction which came from Gibbon's Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire was that empires fall because they conquer territories but cannot incorporate the peoples they conquer. Like Jonah and the Whale. The idea was to wait for this to happen to the Soviets and this prophecy was fulfilled in 1989. But Russia, if we continue the argument, is going to be inclined to follow the Soviet path because that path was basically a Russian path. But I think things have changed in deep ways since the last of the Romanovs. You can't go home to empire again. Liberalism is real in Central Europe and the Ukraine and the fact that Russia is still a nasty autocracy looking for an empire means that it is not attractive to the Ukrainians as a partner. The Russians regard as of no importance the Ukrainians strong move toward liberalism. And such a move is not in the Kennan playbook or in NATO's contingencies. But it is the move the young people will consider most important, I think. And where does the future come from if not from the young?

TheOne Who Is Not Obeyed said...

The SDA left and pro-Putin right (well represented in these comments) have this weird fantasy that NATO could have done ANYTHING to dissuade a totalitarian ethno-nationalist from expanding his empire to meet his territorial ambitions.

NATO could have promised and pinky-swore and groveled and re-promised that Ukraine would never join NATO - and Putin would still have invaded. HE WANTED THE F*****G TERRITORY and the people in it. He isn't worried about his "near abroad" or his standing in the world - he is working the plan for Russian aggrandizement and absolutely nothing done by the West, or NATO would have modified his objectives one iota.

Everything else is excuse making. When he stated that he was going to undo the "tragedy" of 1991 and rebuild the Russian empire, he stated that ambition in very clear terms.

He's got his eyes on Estonia next, and probably the other Baltics. Even if this current war fails he's going to figure out how to get the Baltics "back".

And the Putin apologists and blame-America-firsters will align in heavenly chorus and sing yet again from the same hymn book.

Rusty said...

Howard said...
"You sound exactly like an entitled white woman acting like they aren't benefiting from White Male Privilege. See Bill Burrs hilarious bit on this.

Of course you snowflakes are blameless. Irresponsibility is the primary benefit that Trump provides to you minions.

Blogger Meade said...

“ We broke it, now we got to help fix it.”

Hey! You voted for it. Now get busy.

Whaddaya mean WE, neo-lib con guy?"

Greg The Class Traitor said...

TheOne Who Is Not Obeyed said...
The SDA left and pro-Putin right (well represented in these comments) have this weird fantasy that NATO could have done ANYTHING to dissuade a totalitarian ethno-nationalist from expanding his empire to meet his territorial ambitions.

NATO could have promised and pinky-swore and groveled and re-promised that Ukraine would never join NATO - and Putin would still have invaded. HE WANTED THE F*****G TERRITORY and the people in it. He isn't worried about his "near abroad" or his standing in the world - he is working the plan for Russian aggrandizement and absolutely nothing done by the West, or NATO would have modified his objectives one iota.


Bingo. To that, and all the rest you wrote

BUMBLE BEE said...

Geebus!...
https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/this-isnt-obamas-iran-deal-its-much-much-worse
The hits just keep on coming.

Greg The Class Traitor said...

NotWhoIUsedtoBe said...
Well, NATO didn't prevent the war, did it? What's it for, if not to prevent war?

To WIN it, loser.

Which is why, in Putin pulls off the initial conquest, we'll be supplying Ukrainian partisans killing Russian troops and puppets until such time as Russia is forced to leave

We signed a Charter of Understanding with Ukraine about future NATO membership on November 10, 2021. Did that make Ukraine safer?

well, apparently it got Russia to attack at a time when they weren't ready to do so competently.

Since Putin was always going to attack Ukraine, getting him to do it at the wrong time for him is definitely an advantage

The US military is the only NATO military that matters when it comes to fighting Russia.
Wrong. The Polish military will be quite helpful in supplying Ukrainian partisans