From "Hamilton review — Facts aren’t music to everyone’s ears" by Clive Davis (London Times).
A list song, also called a laundry list song or a catalog song, is a song based wholly or in part on a list. Unlike topical songs with a narrative and a cast of characters, list songs typically develop by working through a series of information, often humorous or comically, articulating their images additively, and sometimes use items of escalating absurdity.
The form as a defining feature of an oral tradition dates back to early classical antiquity, where it played an important part of early hexameter poetry for oral bards like Homer and Hesiod. In classical opera the list song has its own genre, the catalogue aria.... The list song is a frequent element of 20th-century popular music and became a Broadway staple. Cole Porter, Irving Berlin, Noël Coward, and Stephen Sondheim are composers and lyricists who have used the form....
A Cole Porter list song that's easy to call to mind is "You're the Top." The "you" in that song is, the singer asserts, the Colosseum, the Louvre Museum, a symphony by Strauss, a Bendel bonnet, a Shakespeare sonnet, Mickey Mouse, etc. — that is, the best example in the category.
There's a long list of list songs at the Wikipedia link, including Bob Dylan's "A Hard Rain's A-Gonna Fall." Bob tells us he's seen "a newborn baby with wild wolves all around it... a highway of diamonds with nobody on it... a black branch with blood that kept dripping... a room full of men with their hammers a-bleeding... a white ladder all covered with water... ten-thousand talkers whose tongues were all broken... [and] guns and sharp swords in the hands of young children."
There's a few more Bob Dylan songs on that list. "All I Really Want to Do" and "Forever Young" have far pleasanter items on the list than "Hard Rain."
The Beach Boys song on the list is easy to think of. There's one Beatles song listed, "Come Together," but it was easy enough to think of another — "Savoy Truffle."
But let's go back to Cole Porter. Here's how "You're the Top" unfolds in its musical theater setting, "Anything Goes" (which no one, especially not Michelle Obama, thinks is the top of musical theater):
67 comments:
Michelle Obama has long had nothing but militant progressive contempt for Western civilization that preceded Barack's needed "fundamental transformation" of America and the world.
After this, and that Black actress playing Anne Boleyn I don't want to hear shit about White actors taking roles that "belong" to other races ever again.
Michele Obama who was never proud to be an American. I wish she would move to her Utopia and leave the rest of us alone. She is an angry black woman, if I ever saw one, and she is NOT very uniting, and never was.
Michelle Obama, art critic. She’s been to the Louvre, dontchaknow.
We saw the play and it was well performed...a very good production. But it's pure cultural appropriation and pandering to blacks and left-wingers.
The problem with the rap lyrics is, that unless you are 18 years old with perfect hearing and used to that kind of music, the words are unintelligible. I later told friends who were going to see it for the first time to listen to the soundtrack and read the lyrics so they'd know what the hell was going on.
As for being in the same league as Michelangelo, take a look at the Pietà and get back to me. Keep in mind that he was 23 years old when he created this...
It only proves that Michelle is an average IQ (at best) race-baiting moron who married the right guy.
Michelle Obama is in no better position than anybody else to pontificate on the arts. Her opinion is valid, but no more so than yours or mine. "Mundane and relentlessly dense" sounds like a nifty phrase Davis thought of and insisted on using. Words come at you fast and they don't always mean a lot--sure, that sounds like rap. "Wall of words" is my preferred formulation, but either works.
My only real complaint about Hamilton is how much they harped on the "immigrants get things done" theme when neither person they were talking about--Alexander Hamilton and the Marquis de Lafayette--was an immigrant.
@Althouse
"The Beach Boys song on the list is easy to think of."
I thought of "Surfin' USA". I was wrong.
"Hamilton" is a great Broadway show and will stand the test of time like "Le Mis," "Westside Story" and "Oklahoma" but its not the best piece of art of any form. For my money, it is The Cloisters on the Platte in Nebraska; the whole thing, especially the food.
What was truly impressive was how LMM took the Chernow book and it compressed it into Broadway songs. That can only be done with rap and I'm no fan of rap.
BTW, Cloisters is technically free!
Call me a Philistine, but I have zero interest in taking part in the group hypnosis that is 'Hamilton!'. Puhleeze. I can smell an overripe hype all the way down here. No interest whatsoever.
Weird how I once loved musicals in my life, but now can barely stand any of them. Is it that the music has changed so much? Is it the obvious attempts by all scripts to either preach or say things in just the right way that is acceptable to those who get their mail on the Upper East Side? I dunno. I'll quote a passed-on relative from the old country: "Vy I need dis?"
I can sense a sort of guerrilla theme today.
I refused to see it in New York, even when I was offered free tickets. I did watch most of it on Disney...
I was rooting for King George...
List song: The Periodic Table
The first time I heard this, it ended with, "There may be more but that's all we have at Haaaaaarvard."
What did Michelle Obama major in at Princeton? Herself.
The solipsism of the identity politics student, make-work lawyer, no-show community relations fraud.
All that’s left for her is to come and go, talking of Hamilton, the Musical.
I respectfully disagree with the reviewer. Hamilton’s lyrics are better than its music, which is serviceable but which has more in common with old Broadway shows like The Music Man than with current pop or hip hop. The reviewer faults the lyrics because one needs to pay attention to them. Excuse me, but why go see live theater if not to pay attention? Can you let your mind wander during some clever Sondheim lyrics without fear of missing something?
The other thing that interests me about Hamilton (I’m a fan) is that it delivers an essentially conservative message about the greatness of the United States and its founding, even though Miranda might not have meant to deliver such a message. I originally thought using black actors was merely a gimmick, but in fact it makes a point about the inclusiveness of the “American experiment” (“The Battle of Yorktown,” Hamilton)—a conservative point and one worth making.
On the plus side it did get my then 15y/o granddaughter to read Chernows book.
On the negative side, I had to ride 2 hours in an open skiff with her to see Hamilton birthplace in Nevis.
Also on the negative side cultural appropriation on several levrls.
And on the really negative side, it's Hamilton. What an odious piece of shit he was.
John Henry
"But if, baby, I'm the bottom, you're the top!"
And that's how Cole Porter is at the same time funnier, sexier, and more artistic than Lin Manuel Miranda.
I think we can all agree that the worst of the list songs is Billy Joel's "We Didn't Start The Fire."
I don't see why the disparagement of list sons. I've been everywhere and it seems like everywhere and people love 'em. I mean I've been to Reno, Chicago, Fargo, Minnesota, Buffalo, Toronto, Winslow, Sarasota, Wichita, Tulsa, Ottawa, Oklahoma...
Rap be crap.
I'm not sure what Michelle Obama was observing.
I'm not sure how Michelangelo, Mozart, and Miles Davis relate to what she's observing.
I assume the Beach Boys song you're referring to is "California Girls." But I would also count "Kokomo," even though I hate to think of that as an actual Beach Boys song.
I would consider Dylan's "Blowin' in the Wind" a list song, assuming a list of questions counts.
But the pop hit that says "list song" most to me is Billy Joel's "We Didn't Start the Fire." Which has some similarities to "Hamilton," in the sense that many people remember it better than actual history class.
I haven’t seen Hamilton, but have heard some songs from the musical. None have made me want to give a second listen. Perhaps their’s a show stopper or two and I just haven’t heard them. I’d like to listen to the songs that are considered to be the best musically. Any suggestions?
Lists evoke floating common imagery and I think Covid-time has altered the common float so that Hamilton doesn't work any more. I listened to the song about going to New York and it seemed dated in its obvious vision of a magic, soaring city - New York, New York - whereas recent history has New York (New York) closing Broadway, everyone fleeing to the Hamptons, riots, and a rising murder rate leading to a slow, continuing bleed from the city. That's the current common imagery. Then I saw several scenes where King George is portrayed as an effete, idiot Englishman and typical. It wouldn't be the English way to directly address this insult but they wouldn't miss it or fail to take action. They wouldn't miss the fact that Hamilton can't play in New York though it is all about opportunity unavailable under the British system. Its just like them to say the play is a rather dull encyclopedia with lists of people and events no one's heard of leading up to an overwhelming question - Oh do not ask what Michele is thinking. Let's go somewhere else. Cheers.
A Cole Porter list song that's easy to call to mind is "You're the Top." The "you" in that song is, the singer asserts, the Colosseum, the Louvre Museum, a symphony by Strauss, a Bendel bonnet, a Shakespeare sonnet, Mickey Mouse, etc. — that is, the best example in the category.
You left out Mussolini, who was part of the first version of "You're the Top"
My wife and I tried to watch "Hamilton" when it was on Disney+. We had to turn on closed captioning to follow the words. We watched about 10 minutes, found it not to our liking, and turned it off. We have a hard time understanding what all the hoopla has been about. It certainly is not something I would pay several hundred dollars tor a ticket to see it. We also already had a bias against it and the cast after the way they treated Vice-President Pence when he went to the theater. That was crude, rude, and completely unnecessary.
Rap doesn't require much concentration- the lyrics have only 3 basic themes- gangster life, crude sexual misogyny, and drug use. You only need to listen for a few seconds to know any song's theme.
rehjam said: "I don't see why the disparagement of list sons. I've been everywhere and it seems like everywhere and people love 'em. I mean I've been to Reno, Chicago, Fargo, Minnesota, Buffalo, Toronto, Winslow, Sarasota, Wichita, Tulsa, Ottawa, Oklahoma...". Damn! I wish I had thought of that!
@rehajim
Re: "I've Been Everywhere": Started as a song set in Australia & since has been rewritten for other locales, other situations, parody. A very durable list song.
"I thought of "Surfin' USA". I was wrong."
But that belongs on the list.
And so does the song it's based on, "Sweet Little Sixteen":
They're really rockin' in Boston
In Pittsburgh, PA
Deep in the heart of Texas
And 'round the 'Frisco Bay
All over St. Louis
And down in New Orleans...
"California Girls" is on the list, but "Back In The USSR," which was a parody of the Beach Boys song, is not.
I found the yoking of Miles Davis with Michalangelo and Motzart rather humorous. Guess we had to throw in a black guy because it Michelle Obama. At least it wasn't Michalangelo Motzart and Michael Jackson.
I like a well-wrought rap as much as the next old honky, but I've given "Hamilton" a wide berth. The whole thing strikes me as another "1776," for a new generation.
I have never seen or listened to "1776," save in some impromptu excerpts performed by some friends who should have had better things to do. So far I've been spared the like from Miranda fans.
Michaelangelo, Mozart, and Miles Davis walk into a bar . . .
And Michelle asks, "Have you guys seen 'Hamilton'?"
I saw Hamilton on Broadway. As Broadway shows go, it's is as good as they get in recent years. That might be faint praise. It is unabashedly pro-American though. If you are going to think about the price of the tickets, don't go.
But then I watched it again on Disney+ recently and turned it off after a little while. Rhyming dictionary rap. It does seem like its moment is over. I also just watched La Bohème on Amazon, and three acts of watching Mimi die with about ten minutes of really great theatre in there, whenever Musetta was on stage, made me appreciate Hamilton just a little more.
Now you go through Saint Louis
Joplin, Missouri,
And Oklahoma City is mighty pretty.
You see Amarillo,
Gallup, New Mexico,
Flagstaff, Arizona.
Don't forget Winona,
Kingman, Barstow, San Bernandino.
Won't you get hip to this timely tip
When you make that california trip
Get your kicks on route sixty-six.
On the first day of Christmas my true love gave to me....etc. etc.
the problem with rap is it all sounds the same. Its words and a beat. My main attraction to music is melody, so I don't get much enjoyment out of it. I've played it on the car, and it keeps my interest, and my daughter likes it. But that's it. A little goes a long ways. Its the Big Mac of music.
Mike, you underestimated the Periodic Table song. It ends cleverly something like: Those are the only ones that now are known about at Haavaad, And there may be many others but they haven't been discaavad.
"Michelle Obama said that it was 'the best piece of art in any form that I have ever seen,' an observation that put Michelangelo, Mozart and Miles Davis in their place."
And we in the far-right cabal are supposed to be the philistines.
Anyway, if I want relentlessly dense rapping, I'll take Milton over Miranda.
'I assume the Beach Boys song you're referring to is "California Girls."'
'Surfing USA' and 'Surfing Safari' could also be on that list...
I resist going to shows that everyone raves about and insist that I see. On the near-west side of Madison, it seems to me that going to see Hamilton and raving about it is a requirement. I will pass on that. My daughter did like it.
Was "Hamilton" before or after the cultural appropriation craze?
I'm surprised I'm the first to mention my personal favorite list song:
REM, "It's the End of the World As We Know It."
Greatest list song, REM. It's the end of the world as we know it!
I've never met the man but I like Lin Manuel for what he did for my granddaughter.
There is a small Lin Mauel museum in Vega Alta next to the cafetin that his grandfather or uncle or some family member owns.
in 2020 for my grandaughter's birthday (the Hamilton fan) my son arranged a days outing for her and some friends. Wife and went along as herders. First stop was the museum, about 9AM. Turned out that it didn't open until 10. Someone saw us milling around, called Lin's aunt who runs the place and she opened early.
Then she called Lin, in NY, woke him up, got him dressed and so on then put him on a big screen call to the girls who went gaga. He talked to them for 5-10 minutes.
There's not a lot to the museum and not really worth a special trip. But if you are in Vega Alta, stop in for an interesting 10-15 minutes.
I still have no desire to see Hamilton but Lin is a good guy in my book.
John Henry
I like the musical "1776." But for everything except the songs, which are all a forgettable distraction.
rehajm, Mark Steyn just did a piece on "I've Been Everywhere" that's very interesting. The guy who wrote it was Australian, and so the original has lyrics like this:
I've been to Tullamore, Seymour, Lismore, Mooloolaba
Nambour, Maroochydore, Kilmore, Murwillumbah
Birdsville, Emmaville, Wallaville, Cunnamulla
Condamine, Strathpine, Proserpine, Ulladulla
Darwin, Gin Gin, Deniliquin, Muckadilla
Wallumbilla, Boggabilla, Kumbarilla, I'm a killer
Only later was it adapted to the US (and the UK, and New Zealand, and Finland, and any number of other nations).
Michelle Obama said that it was 'the best piece of art in any form that I have ever seen'
Hasn't Michelle seen "Brand New Cherry Flavor"? It's supposed to have become a phenomenon
Hamilton -- Saw it in NYC some years ago (same theatre in which Cheney got dissed a bit later). I thought the dancing was more interesting than the music. Overall, the music was much too loud (it would have been better if the singers could have pulled it off without mics), and the lyrics were often hard to make out over the almost continuous screaming from the audience. It was a weird evening at the theatre -- by the time I saw it, the show was more 'phenomenon' than a musical, and I suspect many in the audience were there to hear themselves expressing delirious approval rather than actually take in the show.
List songs -- hard to beat the Largo al Factotum, sung at presto tempo, as Figaro lists all the reasons why he's a barber of quality. And for a song about a list, Leporello's 'catalog song' from Don Giovanni ('in Espagna, 1,003') is tops.
"But the pop hit that says "list song" most to me is Billy Joel's "We Didn't Start the Fire.""
Yes, exactly. And a lot of people really hate it. It makes people mad.
I, for one, have always liked it. And I can see that I like list songs.
I think the hatred comes from people who specifically resist the list format. These people seem unduly irritable!
'Yes, exactly. And a lot of people really hate it. It makes people mad.'
I don't think anyone gets actually angry, they just change the channel...
Let's face it, it's not one of Joel's better efforts.
I think we need a new tag: "Stuff Michelle Obama likes".
So far as list songs go, I think Gilbert and Sullivan were masters of the genre. I think that might have been their area of specialization....I saw Hamilton on Disney. I liked it and understand what all the fuss is about. The lyrics are witty and punchy.....The non traditional casting is a good idea. None of my ancestors were involved in the American Revolution, but I've always looked up to the Founding Fathers and considered them worthy of respect. I'm pretty sure that none of them had a high opinion of Irish Catholics, but whatever. It would be a good thing if people of color exercised the same willful blindness towards some of the Founding Fathers' attitudes.....It's interesting that Hamilton is now the Celebrated One among the Founding Fathers. The Democrats formerly had Jefferson as their hero. FDR erected the Jefferson Monument on the Mall as a counterbalance to the Lincoln Memorial.
On reading the excerpted definition of "list song," the first song that sprang to mind was "I am the very model of a modern major general." I was very surprised to see it omitted, until I scrolled all the way to the bottom and saw it mentioned under the category of patter songs. But seriously, isn't that more of a list than any of these other examples?
Re: Hamilton, no interest in seeing it, although Lin-Manuel Miranda's songs for Moana were quite fun I thought. Lots of people genuinely seem to like it, although it seems a bit faddish to compare it to the great works of history. Maybe in 50 years' time we'll see.
My favourite modern composer is probably Arvo Part, although I like Gorecki and Golijov as well. I don't think they stand equal with Mozart or Beethoven, but I might rank them with Purcell or Fauré. Which is still very good.
Knowing that Hamilton was going to be on television, I watched it with close captioning on my ipad before watching it on TV, also with cc. I'm not a rap fan, but thought it was OK and enjoyable. I liked the fact that it was about history and some of our founding fathers. Some of the characters were memorably good. On the other hand, living in northern NJ for most of my life, I saw my fair share of Broadway shows and I can think of many off hand that were better than Hamilton. Even taking into consideration the use of black and brown (ie. woke) actors, it's hard to see why it was so popular. One last thing, my GF and I both thought that, acting wise (and singing), Miranda was the weak link in the cast.
I agree with Mrs. X (10:04 AM): Hamilton "delivers an essentially conservative message about the greatness of the United States and its founding, even though Miranda might not have meant to deliver such a message." The American Revolution led to something profoundly new and admirable in the world. Hamilton tells that story, and tells it in a way that demonstrates the goodness of our country. Today's USA is not essentially racist. The use of black actors demonstrates that "American history can be told and retold, claimed and reclaimed, even by people who don’t look like George Washington and Betsy Ross." Source: Hamilton: The Revolution, a book about making the musical, by Lin-Manuel Miranda and Jeremy McCarter, page 95.
Today's USA isn’t about any particular race. Nor is the USA about any particular class. (Alexander Hamilton came from an extreme non-privileged background.) The USA is about ideas, and those ideas are open to all. That is true inclusiveness, as Mrs. X notes.
Hamilton had its beginning with the performance by Mr. Miranda of a single song at the White House in May 2009 during President Obama’s first year in office. Mr. Miranda's book that I quoted above was published in April 2016 during President Obama’s final year in office. Conservatives should celebrate the Obamas' endorsement of this outstanding work of art. Hamilton puts the lie to many other things the Obamas say that conservatives disagree with.
Oh yes, I vividly remember Michelle Obamas official portrait. Boy oh boy that was one big dress.
I swear I died and this is what they meant by purgatory. Its worse than I imagined.
Another good list song: INXS and Mediate.
Does Patty Loveless, "I Try to think about Elvis" qualify?
gilbar said...
Michelle Obama said that it was 'the best piece of art in any form that I have ever seen'
Hasn't Michelle seen "Brand New Cherry Flavor"? It's supposed to have become a phenomenon
9/10/21, 11:20 AM
This cracked me up. Thanks for the Friday laugh!!!
Some have mentioned the musical '1776'; I actually enjoy that one. I would think it a hard task to take a piece of history like the writing of the Declaration of Independence and turn it into an entertaining presentation, but I think it was successful in that sense. Several of the songs are quite good - I particularly like 'He Plays the Violin' and the very moving piece 'Mama, Look Sharp'. And anytime the weather here turns to a humid midwest heatwave, my wife and I strike up with "...someone oughta open up a window" from 'Sit Down, John'.
Michelle was born with RBF, so lighten up already.
Darkisland said...I've never met the man but I like Lin Manuel for what he did for my granddaughter...Someone saw us milling around, called Lin's aunt who runs the place and she opened early. Then she called Lin, in NY, woke him up, got him dressed and so on then put him on a big screen call to the girls who went gaga. He talked to them for 5-10 minutes.
Remember Jon Krasinski’s Some Good News from early in the Lockdown®? He did a bit where he was interviewing this girl who had tickets to Hamilton for her 10th(?) birthday and the showing was cancelled due to COVID. He very deftly turned the conversation to a particular actor in the play, who then appeared on the screen to diss another actor in the play, who then appeared to defend himself. And so it went as one by one the entire cast showed up on a zoom screen. It ended with them singing this girl’s favourite song to her. It was nice.
If it weren’t for that despicable display of disrespect for VP Pence, I’d say Manual seems to be a really decent guy.
This is derailment, but I laughed when someone mentioned the musical 1776. God, that was horrible! See Ben Franklin sing and dance. See Tom jefferson agonize over slavery. See the Indepence hall dancers! The songs? Does anyone remember? LOL. What was my HS History Teacher thinking?
Only positive: I fell in love with Blythe Danner, a real MLF. too bad she her daughter was such a clown.
Skippy Tisdale said...
Michelle was born with RBF, so lighten up already.
Resting B*tch Face PSA
>Michelle Obama said that it was 'the best piece of art in any form *that I have ever seen*'<
For some reason, I don't doubt this.
The quote reminds me of a Jay Leno line from the 80s:
"So...last night MTV gave Madonna a Lifetime Achievement Award.
That gives Ella Fitzgerald and Sarah Vaughn something to shoot for!"
A list song I recently enjoyed: They All Laughed by the Gershwins, nicely performed by the Charlie Biddle Trio at the end of the film The Whole Nine Yards. I haven’t seen nor plan to see Hamilton. And concerning rap music, I like what a character played by Bruce Willis (also in the afore mentioned film) says in The Last Boy Scout. The bad guy says he would like to hear Willis scream in pain, to which Willis replies, Play some rap music.
No, no, no, no, no, no, noNo, no, no, no, no, noNa, no, no, na, no, no, no, na, noNo, no, no, no-no, noNobody can do the shing-a-ling like I do...
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