Top Republicans are calling for a public uprising to protest President Biden's broad vaccine mandates, eight months after more than 500 people stormed the U.S. Capitol to try to overturn the election.
Why it matters: It has been decades since America has witnessed such blatant and sustained calls for mass civil disobedience against the U.S. government.See what he did there? He conflated civil disorder and civil disobedience! Civil disobedience is protest that takes the form of not following the rule that you oppose. Here, that would mean you don't get the vaccine. That's nothing like storming the Capitol.
Invoking a civil-rights parallel, the official added: "Basically Biden is staring down Southern governors (and some Northern allies). ...
Thanks for tipping us off that the Biden insiders are into stirring up north/south hostility and believe they can pose as "civil rights" heroes while taking a position that has nothing to do with civil rights.
By the way, doesn't this mandate put a disparate burden on black people? Is it still true that black people have held out? Will requiring the vaccine stir up suspicion and be counterproductive?
I checked out the #IwillNOTComply hashtag at Twitter and this is the first thing that came up:ADDED: Also trending on Twitter, Jake Tapper:The venn diagram of people seriously tweeting #IwillNOTComply and people who post memes saying "If you had complied with the cops, you wouldn't have been shot" is a circle. pic.twitter.com/81dVscOxKI
— Sam "Lord Vultare" Fuws (@TheMewl) September 9, 2021
This is some seriously dumb "both sides" dumbshit from Jake Tapper. People infecting other people with a deadly disease ARE ALSO THE VILLAINS. https://t.co/bwlsvDnhCh
— Tommy moderna-vaX-Topher (@tommyxtopher) September 10, 2021
Posts
140 comments:
The exemption of then post office from the vaccine mandate is a tell that the Biden handlers know they have a problem with blacks and the vaccine.
I know two people who won't take the COVID vaccine.
One is a religious person, who believes there is enough linkage between vaccine production and use of abortion-derived stem cells to make acceptance of these vaccines immoral. The Pope saying the COVID vax is OK was met with her saying she also disagrees about a lot of other things, with that guy. Moral preening by an idiot, is my conclusion.
The second is a very healthy 30 year old. He sees no need for vaccination, as he is in a demographic group highly unlikely to suffer from infection. OK. He also deeply dislikes the imposition of a Chinese-style "vax social credit" and "vax ID" in any way, shape or form, as he (rightly) believes it will lead to further government overreach into everyone's lives. Tilting against windmills, is my conclusion.
I always try to remember that "It isn't about the nail. "" but it is hard in practice.
Biden's so-called Order isn't based on science or the law.
Where's the exception who had covid-19 and they are now naturally immune? What about people who are immuno-suppressed? Will doctor's notes be accepted for exemptions? Religious exemptions?
And apparantently postal workers are exempt. WTF? Equal Protection?
This is a pure will to power and pandering to his authoritarian base.
In the words of thousands of college football fans this weekend, "Fuck Joe Biden!"
The Installed *"presidents" team is counting on their small coterie of FakeCon LLR's to stick with the dems on the plan to establish permanent dem one party control (which is a given, duh) and the hope this group of pro-pedophile grifters can somehow bring along 5% of the republican base (zero probability of that since the grifter crew has been totally exposed as far left activists)
So, what was it, that Jo Biden said?
"If y'all ain't gonna get vaxed.... Y'all ain't Black!"
was That it?
What does Randi Whatshername? from the teacher's union think about this?
Even if Biden fails because of court intervention, his move allows him to shift the blame for Covid upticks. "Hey, I tried. It's not my fault. It's those Republican governors' fault."
I will now never take any of these vaccines simply as a demonstration of contempt for this government, and I will no longer recommend anyone taking them. A stand has to be made- if not now, when? If not here, where?
"An uprising." Oh brother. If we ever do have an Uprising, it won't look like January 6...
As someone who is usually the most libertarian person in the room, this is weird to say, but, "What's the big deal? We require young people to get about ten vaccinations in order to go to school. Nobody cares. Immigrants--well legal ones--are required to have lots of vaccinations, too. Nobody cares. What's the big deal about this one?"
Obey your radical leftwing masters, or else.
Do not question the radical corrupt leftwing masters... Or else...
Predictably, the MSM will try to report this as a purely "Far-Right Cabal" vs. Democrat issue, focusing entirely on politics and totally avoiding the substance and merits of Biden's autocratic (and knowing unlawful) dictate.
Let me see if I understand the logic. You need a vaccine passport to work but you don't need an ID to vote.
OK. That makes sense if you live in Lefty World.
"People infecting other people with a deadly disease ARE ALSO THE VILLAINS."
Now do homosexuals.
As far as the COVID-19 vax, why the concern over the unvaxed? If you believe in the vax, get it, and you're safe. Right?
I also think it's funny that they continue to go after "Trump voters" when by and large the group that has the lowest vaccination rate are African Americans. So the answer to your question "Is it still true that black people have held out?" is yes, greater then any other group. Of course the left's response to that is the same as voter ID excuses. Still bullshit.
If you can force me to get a vaccination in order to save other people, than I can ban abortion for the same reason.
By the way, doesn't this mandate put a disparate burden on black people? Is it still true that black people have held out? Will requiring the vaccine stir up suspicion and be counterproductive?
YES! In the Black media and community, this will be a big problem. In the White Privilege elite media, e.g. NYT and WashPost, they will completely ignore the impact on Black folks, just like the true white suprmacists that they are.
"Biden beat Trump by promising strong action based on science."
People who use the "based on science" meme fall into two broad categories
-- People who are scientists and likely know what they are talking about and should be given some credence.
--People who are not scientists and likely don't know what they are talking about but use the phrase as a club of the sort, "what kind of an idiot are you refusing to follow all those smart, knowledgeable and highly trained scientists?"
Science is hard.
'Biden beat Trump by promising strong action based on science.'
Yeaahhhh...Did he though?
The Democrats are better for Blacks thing is starting to fray around the edges, isn't it?
But I think the outrage over the mandates will be less than forecast.
Biden just went through a brutal stretch where public opinion began to solidify that he's weak, weak-minded and basically not up to the job. So this is the response -- be 'forceful', 'strong,' 'take no prisoners', blah-blah-blah.
To me, the whole thing is a 'wag the dog' moment. Biden's explanation for his diktats made no sense. As many have pointed out, he began with a catalog of the reasons why those who are vaccinated are protected -- his point was that, post-vaccination, the risks to them are minuscule. And then he did an about-face and claimed that the 80 million non-vaxxed pose a huge risk to the vaccinated. Be angry, really really angry, at those awful non-vaxxers! So which is it? And the policy of mandating vaccines or testing but only for fed contractors or employers with more than 100 employees -- really? Unvaxxed employees of smaller businesses don't pose a risk?
It's not a strategy designed to work; it's designed to distract. It will work with the Karens in his base. Good luck with everyone else.
As for civil disorder vs. civil disobedience, I think you're overlooking a possible third choice to what appears to be a binary choice of vaxxing or not. That choice is to disobey all Covid-19 health mandates, regulations, orders, etc. That may be heralded by mask burnings like the bra burnings of the 1960s. If so, it may not stop there and expand to include CRT, Woke awareness and training, defunding police, statue removals, etc. Things could get out of hand to become widespread civil disorder. We live in dangerous times.
Michael K: "The exemption of then post office from the vaccine mandate is a tell that the Biden handlers know they have a problem with blacks and the vaccine."
Catering to the Postal employees is a requirement as the postal service is the key logistic node for all future cheat by mail voting schemes.
Equating the COVID shot with the required vaccines is presumptuous at this point. We don't require the flu shot...yet.
Regarding the applicable law, it is beyond clear that the statute which grants OSHA general power to require a safe workplace is not a grant of absolute authority to do whatever the government wants.
Nor is the power to protect employees authorization to require employers to terminate workers who decline to be vaccinated or tested. You cannot pervert a law to protect employees into a law to endanger and impoverish employees by denying them their jobs and livelihood.
"The exemption of then post office from the vaccine mandate is a tell that the Biden handlers know they have a problem with blacks and the vaccine."
You always have to worry about "going postal."
"Every Republican in the country — especially those running to the right in primaries..."
If it truly is "Every Republican in the country", why the subset "especially those running to the right in primaries...?"
Boy that 'My body my choice' stuff from last week sure went out the window awful fast...
...more and more people are beginning to recognize how much of civilization is broken- primary and secondary education, medicine, judiciary, legislature, executive, media. All broken. It isn't unreasonable for reasonable people to take reasonable steps to protect themselves...
I took the vaccine under the impression received that doing so would allow society to return to some semblance of normal human activity. Now I'm told by the CDC it won't prevent me from getting what I'm vaccinated against and it won't prevent me from transmitting what I'm vaccinated against. What's the definition of vaccine again?
Biden tasked OSHA with promulgating the rule(s) for implementing his vaccination mandate, which presumably will be subject to the review process required by the Administrative Procedure Act which will take some time. I think that there are several complications posed by the APA that Biden hasn’t foreseen or has created himself. First, every morning, I check the daily numbers for new cases, hospitalizations, and deaths for my state (NJ) presented in bar graph form in the New York Times (so not right wing generated data), and the current so-called delta variant surge has crested at values far below the peaks of the first and second waves. In fact, daily deaths attributed to Covid rose from about 4 on July 1 to about 15 and holding steady now. By the time the OSHA rule is finalized, the numbers will probably have decreased significantly. Second, by exempting postal workers, possibly teachers and immigrants crossing the border from the vaccination mandate, the scope of the mandate is susceptible to be found arbitrary and capricious under the APA. Third, I think that OSHA would be hard pressed to present the substantial evidence required by the APA that the vaccination mandate would protect the vaccinated from the unvaccinated as Biden claimed in his address.
Wait; no one has to accept the vaccine, right? If you don’t wish to be vaccinated, you can opt for weekly testing, right? Isn’t that what Biden just announced with respect to private sector companies with more than 100 employees?
Please; if you want to contest me on this point, be very specific and focused on this one question.
My body my choice.
It does seem incredibly authoritarian and the very definition of fascism...the government working in lockstep with private industry to mandate policy.
"The exemption of the post office from the vaccine mandate is a tell that the Biden handlers know they have a problem with blacks and the vaccine."
The exemption of workplaces with less than 100 employees is a tell that the vaccine mandate has no rational basis or relation to employee health and safety.
It is completely arbitrary and capricious for Biden to tell OSHA to claim that a vaccine mandate for employers with 100 workers is absolutely necessary on an emergency basis, but that it is perfectly fine for companies with 99 workers to continue to have freedom of choice on vaccination.
'The exemption of then post office from the vaccine mandate is a tell that the Biden handlers know they have a problem with blacks and the vaccine.'
The power of unions, my friend. It also will make companies like UPS and FedEx less competitive...I wonder who benefits from that?
'We require young people to get about ten vaccinations in order to go to school.'
Except for the inconvenient fact that covid rarely kills or even harms anyone who is school-age, other than those with extreme co-morbidities....can you say 400 pounds?
We cannot live normal lives if the government insists on the 'if it saves just a single life' policy.
Liberals always make that play to assert power, but they don't mean it. If they did, knives, baseball bats, buckets (yes, buckets), cars, airplanes, etc., etc. would all be banned.
Note how all the people who haven't been immunized are referred to as "anti-vaxers".
This is coordinated and purposeful.
It’s amusing to me how the Althouse commentariat leaps to the presumption that the Biden executive order(s) exempted postal workers based on craven and corrupt political motivations, instead of any detailed legal/procedural reasons.
“Ready, Fire; Aim!”
Postal workers, it is now clarified, are indeed subject to the vaccine/testing mandate. So there goes the political collusion theory. Oh any of you federal employment law experts want to check it out, you might find out how tricky it is for a President to issue an EO that covers Postal Union employees under the purview of the Postmaster General.
Senator Padme Amidala: So this is how liberty dies...with thunderous applause.
I got the vaccine early for two selfish reasons: I don't want to get sick, and I want to see my grandkids. And the quicker the infection rate goes down, the quicker the masks can go off for everyone everywhere.
Please, do not refuse vaccination to "stick it to the man" or "as a demonstration of contempt for this government". Work against Joe Biden. Point out where he lies or does counterproductive things. Get involved politically. But the longer the infection rate stays up, the longer the mask/distance/close down goes on. And I want it all to be over, da*n it!
That "storming the Capitol" line is melting in DC courts; the US attorneys are having a very hard time convincing judges that (for most of the defendants) the 'storming' was NOT 'petition Government.'
He conflated civil disorder and civil disobedience!
That's because in his mind they are the same.
We require young people to get about ten vaccinations in order to go to school. Nobody cares.
A couple of reasons, the vaccinations children have to get weren't produced in a year with minimal testing. And I say that as someone who has gotten vaccinated. However, I can see why someone would be reluctant to do so. And trust in the government and the public health authorities is gone because they have demonstrated that they can't be trusted. Back when it was Trump's vaccine Biden was cautioning people about being to hasty about taking it. The CDC and Fauci keep issuing ridiculous directives which anyone with any common sense can see are just attempts to keep from having to admit that there really isn't much that can be done about Covid-19. Its going to continue to spread and eventually mutate into an even less dangerous virus, like other viruses before it. And finally, its an expansion of government power. What authority does the President have to order companies to force their employees to inject a foreign substance into their bodies? If he has that power what power doesn't he have?
"Biden beat Trump by promising strong action based on science."
Sure.
And what’s the science behind mandating all federal employees get vaccinated, but excluding the 650,000 postal workers? Covid doesn’t infect letter carriers?
And what’s the science behind mandating all employers with 100 or more employees force employee vaccinations? Covid also doesn’t infect you if there are only 80, or 60 or 20 employees in your office?
It’s NOT science based. It’s BS. I’m not buying what you’re peddling…
Roger Sweeny said, "What's the big deal about this one?"
The "big deal" is that the anti-SARS-CoV-2 vaccines are a very new and different approach to vaccination. They have no track record in large-scale deployment. Hell, they didn't even complete 3rd-stage clinical testing before approval for emergency use.
These are not tried-and-true vaccines, but they are treated as though they are. I don't care to be part of that experiment. I want to see how things flesh out.
If COVID-19 were truly a serious risk to all, I'd take my chances on the vaccines, but it's not. The last 20 months have just seen abominable, Keystone-Cops-style public policy.
Curious George said...
As far as the COVID-19 vax, why the concern over the unvaxed? If you believe in the vax, get it, and you're safe. Right?
Wrong. Vaccines are not perfect. Getting rid of smallpox and polio, keeping mumps an measles to a rarity all require herd immunity. You need enough of the population vaccinated (or to have had and recovered from the disease) so that the disease can't spread through the population. That protects those who were vaccinated but for whom the vaccine did not work, those who could not get the vaccine, and even the stupid anti-vaxxers who choose not to get the vaccine.
I'm not saying Biden's mandate is good policy. But if you want to argue against it effectively, get your facts straight first.
I'm vaccinated, and I suppose honest people (not you, "liberals"!) can have honest debates on what science indicates. But you know who should be the last person you should listen to? Dementia Joe. On his best day before his brain started to go, he was a doofus, and a dishonest doofus at that. Taking your marching orders from him is like following whatever "science" the guys selling comics outside Bloomingdale's* might be pushing.
*Dated Woody Allen reference for you older, culturally literate folk.
Biden jumped the shark and is now a totalitarian dictator.
Biden is everything the left accused Trump of being.
@Roger Sweeney:What's the big deal about this one?"
a) Risks vs benefits: we vaccinate children against dangerous childhood diseases, not against everything there is a vaccine for. The risks to children of COVID are so low compared to driving them to the doctor to get vaccinated that it makes no sense to vaccinate them for this.
b) Exemption process: My state is currently trying to figure out how to define a "real" religion so they can deny exemption for COVID. How does your libertarianism like that? Parents have a right to make medical decisions for their children, and sometimes they don't exercise it well, but is it the "libertarian" solution to therefore put the government in charge? Parents might give their kids soda instead of water, after all.
c) Rights: Immigrants aren't losing a right because a condition is imposed on them before they come here. Parents have a right to decide for their children and for themselves which is being threatened.
What's with the idea of conflating protesting a government mandate with "comply(ing) with the cops"? They are not the same thing. We comply with the cops because we (society) have set them up to take the actions that they take - we have pre-approved these actions. Yes, if the cops do something counter to the approved actions, we can take them to court, etc. We can even demonstrate against these actions if they are egregious and sustained. So those of us who comply with the police in general are not supportive of police not following established procedures, etc. We certainly don't support non-compliance with the police just because they have to do their jobs that they are charged with.
Now, compare that to protesting a government-mandated vaccination rule. The rule itself was not 'pre-approved' - it was established ad hoc. It goes against what many people feel is within governmental jurisdiction. So, in the United States, we have the option of protest against this type of governmental intrusion.
In both cases, a person holding the two views has the same recourse - protest. In both cases, you protest under conditions of what you consider as egregious/sustained actions of a government entity. That the person holding these views does not consider routine police actions as 'egregious/sustained', which should be resisted, does not make that person a hypocrite.
"What's the big deal about this one?"
This one is being mandated by people and institutions a significant portion of the population (with good reason) have little or no faith in. Personally, I believe getting the vaccine is a good idea, one I followed myself. Others have made other choices, based on their lack of trust in those institutions involved. Perhaps if those institutions hadn't pissed their credibility away to get rid of Orange the Clown, their opinions would be taken more seriously.
science: a systematically organized body of knowledge on a particular subject
not science:
- opinions of scientists
- thoughts you have while reading scientific facts
- anything a politician says
Cool. Somewhere up in heaven Machiavelli is applauding. Republicans have established a new standard: the means justifies the ends.
Roger Sweeny said..."What's the big deal? We require young people to get about ten vaccinations in order to go to school.
That's a fair question, one of the best, in fact. We heavily favor public schools over other options, but then set up a list of requirements, including a long list of vaccinations, for kids to go to public school and nobody complains much about that.
The answer in this case is that it's a difference of degree, not of kind. The maladies that we require school vaccinations for are a scourge on childhood; when they ran free, they killed many children. COVID is more like super flu--there is a flu vaccine, your doctor recommends one every fall. Maybe you get it and maybe you don't and that's the end of it until next fall. Nobody makes a big stink if you refuse it. Some years you forget, even if most years you get it, and nobody makes changes to their behavior based on whether they or someone around them got it.
COVID is simply too mild to justify the wholesale societal changes being imposed through the awesome powers of government.
The Althouse commentariat are suddenly in love with the word cabal.
It's magical, one daresay cabalistic.
"People infecting other people with a deadly disease ARE ALSO THE VILLAINS."
Everyone would do themselves and the world a great favor by going to the CDC site showing their own data to see just how "deadly" this disease is. As of Tuesday, when I checked, of the total number of cases, only 1.6% of those people in the US died. Of those, 78% were over the age of 65 and just over 5% of them were under the age of 50. And per the footnotes, the death totals include positive tests and those "presumed" to have COVID-19, whatever that means. In other words, as we all know now, while the infection might have contributed to the death, it is entirely possible there was a positive test with no symptoms presented.
Even if you affirmatively attribute those deaths to COVID-19 infections and say those people died because of it, they are still a vanishingly small percent of the cases. Keep in mind this is the government's data and was as of this week. Simple math, no data science required. Delta variant present and accounted for. Your individual risk varies of course, depending on your underlying health, but this disease is not "deadly" by any anecdotal sense of the word.
I agree with the people who say "follow the science". Now let's actually do it.
Roger Sweeny said, "What's the big deal about this one?"
The "big deal" is that the anti-SARS-CoV-2 vaccines are a very new and different approach to vaccination. They have no track record in large-scale deployment. Hell, they didn't even complete 3rd-stage clinical testing before approval for emergency use.
These are not tried-and-true vaccines, but they are treated as though they are. I don't care to be part of that experiment. I want to see how things flesh out.
If COVID-19 were truly a serious risk to all, I'd take my chances on the vaccines, but it's not. The last 20 months have just seen abominable, Keystone-Cops-style public policy.
Roger Sweeny said...
As someone who is usually the most libertarian person in the room, this is weird to say, but, "What's the big deal? We require young people to get about ten vaccinations in order to go to school. Nobody cares. Immigrants--well legal ones--are required to have lots of vaccinations, too. Nobody cares. What's the big deal about this one?"
The biggest problem is that any criticism of the vaccines are censored on most communication platforms available in our country.
A bit like discussing election fraud.
When is the last time that powerful people using censorship were the good guys?
Besides if I want to find any adverse opinions about the vaccines all I need to do is go back and see what Joe Biden and Kamala Harris said about the vaccines.
The fact that this administration with these two people ostensibly in charge and what these two shitbags said about the vaccine could now turn around and mandate it within a year of saying what they said just shows how completely lacking seriousness they are and their supporters are.
"The exemption of then post office from the vaccine mandate is a tell that the Biden handlers know they have a problem with blacks and the vaccine."
And unions. More unions will be struggling with this.
You always have to worry about "going postal."
I have an old Windows 98 FPS called Postal2 (the 2 rendered as an exponent as if Postal2 is twice whatever Postal was). Somebody gave it to me as a gift, but I never installed it. There are some reviewer quotes on the inner flap, for example:
"Finally -- for real and for true -- a game developer that doesn't give 3/16ths of a rat's ass what anybody thinks. Anybody. ANYbody."
Roger Sweeny writes, "As someone who is usually the most libertarian person in the room..."
Bad idea. As a general rule don't be the most anything in the room. Unless you're Quaestor, then it's expected.
The next couple months or the Biden Regime rule are going to make the first 7 look good.
They will probably fall before the Chicoms do.
Their fates are linked.
You always have to worry about "going postal."
The Biden Administration is afraid of a Postal strike as well as vaccine-shy Blacks turning against him.
It is all based on science -- political science.
In my health care office, the few remaining unvaccinated workers are required to wear a face shield and N-95 in the office. It feels like a scarlet letter that says Unvaccinated Sinner.
I'm a postal worker and I can explain the exemption. It comes down to this: The U.S. Postal Service is considered to be an independent agency and not part of the Executive Branch. We were not required to wear masks like other federal workers after Biden*'s executive orders immediately after he was installed in office. Masks were recommended but not required. Now, if the Postmaster General had issued an order requiring masks, that would probably have been a different situation, since he is directly in charge of us, unlike Biden*. However, that would immediately have gotten our labor unions involved over changing the work conditions without negotiation.
One thing you all should understand is that postal workers are NOT monolithically Democrats or left-wingers. We have a lot of veterans, and many of us who are veterans are conservatives and/or Republicans. Now, the leadership of our postal unions are, indeed, monolithically left-wing Democrats, which is why I don't contribute to the union's PAC, even though I have belonged to the union for over 30 years. You might ask why a conservative would belong to a labor union, especially in a right-to-work state like Florida, but I've always felt that since the union represents my interests and negotiates my contract and working conditions, it would be dishonorable to take the benefits and not pay union dues. When election time comes around, however, I usually take the list of people the union recommends and vote against all of them.
Vaxx deez nuts
Presideeznuts Biden
Hat tip to Yancey and Curious George, if you believe the vaccine is so effective why do you care if I’m not vaccinated? Also i too feel like I’m not getting it just to prove a point. I guess soon we will have to wear a patch on our shirt and part like it’s 1939 again
Biden says that his patience is wearing thin. So is our patience with him!
Full disclosure, the wife and I are fully vaccinated and have been since March. I am in my 70s and overweight so it made sense. But demanding that people who have had the disease and recovered nevertheless get vaccinated makes no scientific sense whatsoever. Other countries are learning how to treat the disease; what’s wrong with our scientists?
As to the civil disobedience part, please tell me how many of the people demanding that we blindly follow Joe Biden’s latest foolishness paid scrupulous attention to the laws (laws, mind you, not just EOs) against smoking marijuana or using even harder drugs?
Roger Sweeny,
"We require young people to get about ten vaccinations in order to go to school. Nobody cares. Immigrants--well legal ones--are required to have lots of vaccinations, too. Nobody cares. What's the big deal about this one?"
Those other mandates are required by laws, debated and passed by legislators. If this were a federal law, I'd be skeptical that Congress really has that authority – but I'd be a hell of a lot closer to agreeing that they do, than that the president [or his handlers] can just decree it and order an Executive branch bureaucracy to make it so.
The other big deal about this one is that the technology is very new. If you're an old person with a probable comorbidity and, say, a 5% chance of death from COVID infection, you were probably waiting in line for this shot, no mandate needed. If you're young and healthy and your odds of dying if infected are more like 1 in 2000, you might just say, I don't trust mRNA vaccines and I'll take my chances with the virus.
I think that's misguided. I will explain to anyone willing to listen why I think they should get this vaccine, why we're all better off the more people have it. But if I can't persuade them, I wouldn't force them if I could. And for some of the mandate supporters, the compulsion isn't a last resort, arrived at reluctantly; it's a first resort, arrived at eagerly, because the people they can't persuade, they hate anyway.
I said something like "The Covid-19 Vax looks like a black vote suppression campaign by the republicans."
And then i remembered, Trump is not in the White House.
D'oh!
When does it become okay to laugh at any of the unvaccinated Americans who die of COVID?
Asking for a friend.
In all seriousness, I don’t know anyone who is laughing. Not Erick Erickson; not David French:
https://mobile.twitter.com/gtconway3d?lang=en
Biden tasked OSHA with promulgating the rule(s) for implementing his vaccination mandate, which presumably will be subject to the review process required by the Administrative Procedure Act which will take some time.
No. Biden is mandating that OSHA bypass the usual notice-and-comment and to instead issue its mandate that employers fire their employees unless they get the mandated vaccine under OSHA's emergency powers provision. Which means it would take effect immediately, without any public comment.
“When people are able to make choices without government interference for themselves in terms of their well being and the well-being of their family in consultation with whomever they may choose, we are a stronger society,” - Kamala Harris YESTERDAY. Although she is talking about killing babies...not forcing America to take a vaccine which may not work.
It's pretty hypocritical but what else is new??
Roger Sweeny @ 11:51AM ... Do you have a full understanding of the possible long-term side effects? No, because there are no long-term studies. The polio vaccine was rushed to market and caused irreparable harm to tens of thousands.
Chuck @ 12:24PM ... The "vaccinated" are not immune from infection and, in fact, can spread the infection. Why are they not required to test weekly?
OK...I am willing to believe that a life long Republican is willing to spend four years destroying his own party in order to oppose Trump. many did indeed do so.
I am not willing to believe however that a lifelong Republican is now defending President Biden's authoritarian incompetence.
Chuckles was indeed a Moby all along.
Wait; no one has to accept the vaccine, right? If you don’t wish to be vaccinated, you can opt for weekly testing, right? Isn’t that what Biden just announced with respect to private sector companies with more than 100 employees?
Ok, Chuck, I'll take a stab. What Biden announced with respect to private sector companies with more than 100 employees is that they are now an enforcement arm of the government.
What those private sector companies choose to do next is up to them - right? Those near that 100-employee threshold might, oh, fire a few people, particularly if they're running near the edge of profitability too. Or, they might realize that firing a lot of employees by turning them into contractors similarly gets them off the enforcement hook.
Or, for companies of any size, a pincer movement comes into play: health insurers and the feds both stop covering the cost of COVID testing (because hey, get vaccinated and you won't have to get tested every week), and companies shrug and tell their employees, hey, get vaccinated and you won't have to pay out of pocket to get tested every week.
So this "policy" masquerades as persuasion but acts (or at least has the capacity to act) as compulsion - first of private sector companies and then of their employees. Just as a fascist nation can make the technically accurate claim that its economy is in private hands. Just as those who change voting regulations and methods in ways that make elections less secure and less reliable can make the marginally plausible, but unfalsifiable, claim that such was not their intent.
It's frighteningly bad policy that's not based on current data. We know vaccinated people can be infected and can spread the disease to others. We have never tired to introduce new vaccines during a pandemic and what we're learning is the spike protein is evolving into vaccine resistant variants. Meanwhile Biden is repeating the fact free political message that this is a pandemic of the unvaccinated...
...and it's bad policy because there is no promotion of therapies. Instead therapies are vilified. What about at least promoting Vitamin D for fuck's sake?
It is a continuation of a series of bad polices like lockdowns. We learned fairly early on transmission was nearly impossible outdoors- yet what was the policy? Lockdowns. Stay home. (Australia is now telling people to do what? Stay indoors.)
It's dangerous and pathetic and leadership is failing us...
"Republicans have established a new standard: the means justifies the ends."
You spelled "the Biden Administration" wrong.
Clyde: "One thing you all should understand is that postal workers are NOT monolithically Democrats or left-wingers. We have a lot of veterans, and many of us who are veterans are conservatives and/or Republicans. Now, the leadership of our postal unions are, indeed, monolithically left-wing Democrats, which is why I don't contribute to the union's PAC, even though I have belonged to the union for over 30 years. You might ask why a conservative would belong to a labor union, especially in a right-to-work state like Florida, but I've always felt that since the union represents my interests and negotiates my contract and working conditions, it would be dishonorable to take the benefits and not pay union dues. When election time comes around, however, I usually take the list of people the union recommends and vote against all of them."
It's quite common to find union members voting republican, in smaller but important numbers under Nixon and expanding to significant numbers under Reagan and expanded even further under Trump, despite the union leadership staying monolithically far left.
This is to be expected now that the vast majority of the republican base voters identify with the middle and working classes (lower and middle) which was to be expected as the democraticals become more and more the party of the coastal lefties whether these democraticals are on the coast or somewhere in the middle of the country, like LLR Chuck who is as democratical as they come and he claims to be from MI which would explain his non-stop support for and praise of the far far left Whitmer while he also attacks Republican candidates in MI.
The concern is that the Union leadership dumps all those dues back into democratical coffers as well as allows those "leaders" to direct key activities under their purview which make it clear to the non-republican postal workers they are "free and clear" to engage in any type of electoral shenanigans they'd like without any real threat of punishment.
Quite the opposite really. Rewards await those who, like the IRS agents under obama who targeted conservative 501c3 organizations, much to LLR Chuck's delight, and abuse their positions and authority to better serve the democratical/LLR-democratical agenda.
I have been vaccinated, but it was MY CHOICE, MY BODY!
If the Resident can demand that you inject a substance into your arm a few times a year, then what limitations are there to his power?
Let Congress debate this mandate. This is still a fucking democracy.
Following up on my earlier comment about how companies might respond to being made an enforcement arm of the government: my husband just told me that at the press briefing, Psaki was asked the very question I raised by implication: how can the government compel companies to pay for testing?
Her answer, delivered with what my husband says was a "smug little smile": companies don't have to pay for anything if they themselves make vaccination a mandatory condition of employment.
Et voilá, and Q.E.D.
@ JPS - I too don't like that this wasn't a "law, debated and passed by legislators". But so many other things in the last 18 months haven't been either. The eviction moratorium is a fantastic unlegislated interference with people's rights and basically no one gives a sh*t. If you're concerned with unlegislated power of the Executive branch bureaucracy, this is a strange hill to choose to die on.
And, seriously, how many people who are pissed about a vaccine mandate today would change their minds if it were debated and passed by legislators? How many people who would oppose a duly passed federal mandate would be perfectly willing to accept a mandate passed by their state legislature? Da*n few, I'd guess. Even though they have never had a second thought about state passed vaccine mandates for their school age children and for themselves when they were children.
I suppose the fact that many people say they are concerned about the new technology involved shows that "safetyism" isn't confined to the political left.
This is clearly political. The Biden people know the Supreme Court will overturn this, just as they did with the eviction moratorium. Then they will say, "see that's why we need to pack the court, kill the filibuster, and do whatever we need to do to get our way".
This is clearly political. The Biden people know the Supreme Court will overturn this, just as they did with the eviction moratorium. Then they will say, "see that's why we need to pack the court, kill the filibuster, and do whatever we need to do to get our way".
Clyde.
Thanks for the explanation. But it is bs.
Biden has ordered All businesses ovrr 100 employees to force vaccinations. Not just executive branch.
That should include the office since it is a business with over 100 employees.
As you say, it's not even a govt agency so where does Biden's power to exempt you come from?
John Henry
COVID is simply too mild to justify the wholesale societal changes being imposed through the awesome powers of government.
Half of the best argument against the mandates. The other half is that, unlike the childhood diseases most vaccines prevent, this is a disease of the elderly and those with major morbidities. Like chickenpox, this is a disease that is mild and often asymptomatic in childhood.
My wife and I are well over 60 and immunized. Now, we read about how the vaccine may not be protective against the mutations. Let's use it on the high risk group like us while we wait for a better conventional vaccine.
And masks are theater.
States might have a constitutional right to impose vaccinations under the 10th amendment.
Somebody needs to show me where the federal govt has that right. What clause of the constitution gives congress the right to pass this kind of law?
And we don't even have that. We have a president acting like a demented Mussolini imposing it by fiat.
No discussion or voting as in a normal law.
Just a dictator telling us what to do.
John Henry
COVID is new and different. The health and bureaucratic people responded by going, "Oh, my God. It's new. It's awful. Or at least it could be. So we'll have to assume it's really bad and make people change the way they live: mask, socially distance, and just stop doing lots of things." I think that was an over-reaction that had some bad effects.
Some people in these comments--and many in real life--seem to be thinking, "The technology used to develop the COVID vaccines is new. It's untested. It's dangerous. Or at least it could be. So I won't get vaccinated." I think that is a similar over-reaction that is having bad effects. The fewer people that are vaccinated, the easier it is for the virus to spread, and much worse, the easier it is for the virus to mutate.
@ Gabriel - You say "My state is currently trying to figure out how to define a "real" religion so they can deny exemption for COVID." This is an honest question: How do they decide now who to exempt from vaccination mandates for school?
Roger Sweeny @ 11:51 AM ... Do you have a full understanding of the possible long-term side effects? No, because the clinical trial process normally conducted over many years was not followed and the control group was intentionally "lost".
Chuck @ 12:24 PM ... The vaccinated are not immune from infection and can, in fact, carry a high viral load and spread the virus to others. Why are they exempt from weekly testing?
These same Democrats who supported the George Floyd and antifa riots are now suddenly worried about a little civil disobedience?
And I thought that all those wankers had Selma Envy?
"What's the big deal about this one?""
In the entire history of the United States, there ha never been a defacto federally mandated vaccination for anything ever. Ever.
Roger Sweeny said...
As someone who is usually the most libertarian person in the room, this is weird to say, but, "What's the big deal? We require young people to get about ten vaccinations in order to go to school. Nobody cares. Immigrants--well legal ones--are required to have lots of vaccinations, too. Nobody cares. What's the big deal about this one?"
1: Plenty of people do care, and opt out
2: Those vaccines actually work. If you get the chicken pox vaccine and it "takes" (> 90% chance), you won't get chicken pox, and you won't act as a carrier to give it to other people
3: The "Covid Vaccine" is not a vaccine in the traditional meaning of the word. If you "get the jabs" you can still get Covid, and you can get it asymptomatically and give it to other people. It's, at best, a "flu shot" for Covid.
4: Neither postal workers nor public school teachers are being "mandated" to get teh vaccine.
So:
It's not about public health, it's about an authoritarian thug and his* lackeys trying to force the rest of us to dance to their nonsensical tune
From a public health perspective, it's wouldn't surprise me if the vaccinated are bigger threats of Covid transmission than the non-vaccinated
If you're not vaccinated and you get Covid, you're likely to show symptoms, get tested, and then quarantine
If you're vaccinated and you get Covid, you're likely to not show symptoms, not get tested, not quarantine, and thus expose more people to the virus
And, since it's a "leaky" vaccine, those who've just been vaccinated, who can therefore still "host" the virus, are far more likely to have the virus develop a "vaccine resistant strain" (since if the virus mutates in the vaccinated person so that it can grow in the presence of a vaccinated immune system, that mutation will have a strong competitive advantage).
There's no legitimate reason for this order. it's the Biden* Admin lashing out at Americans, because they just got their a$$es kicked by the Taliban
"People infecting other people with a deadly disease ARE ALSO THE VILLAINS."
Ah. So all those Covid "vaccinated" people who are still contagious, still carriers, just less likely to be hurt themselves, they must be bigger "villains" than the unvaccinated, who face a personal risk while passing it to you.
Thank you for helping us understand that
These same Democrats who supported the George Floyd and antifa riots are now suddenly worried about a little civil disobedience?
And I thought that all those wankers had Selma Envy?
"Roger Sweeny said, "What's the big deal about this one?""
For me the big deal is that I have a greater trust of my subsidiary awareness than I do of "The Science".
I have been vaccinated for everything, even shingles. It just made sense.
Not this time.
If I could mandate just one thing for the American people, it would be that they read Michael Polyani's "Personal Knowledge: Towards a Post-Critical Philosophy.
Roger Sweeny said...
I got the vaccine early for two selfish reasons: I don't want to get sick, and I want to see my grandkids. And the quicker the infection rate goes down, the quicker the masks can go off for everyone everywhere.
Please, do not refuse vaccination to "stick it to the man" or "as a demonstration of contempt for this government". Work against Joe Biden. Point out where he lies or does counterproductive things. Get involved politically. But the longer the infection rate stays up, the longer the mask/distance/close down goes on. And I want it all to be over, da*n it!
Sorry, but that story is no longer operative.
I too, got the vaccine as soon as I could, so I could get my life back.
Now, the same people who told me that, ar now telling me "you're vaccinated? oh, you still have to jump through all the hoops. We lied. Sorry!"
Fuck them.
I'm done. I'm not getting a 3rd jab. I'm not masking. I'm not social distancing. I don't give a flying fuck about "when the infection rate comes down."
Either the vaccine works, in which case I don't need to play any of those bullshit games. Or else it doesn't work, and we're not going to get a working one any time soon, in which case I'm doing playing the bullshit games of fear about a "pandemic" of a disease that kills virtually no one other than the really old, and those with serious co-morbidities who were probably going to die soon of something, anyway.
The only thing you have to fear, is fear itself. Stop living a life of fear
The "for the good of all Americans" will be a lead in to anything Biden and the Left want to do. Driving is bad, Meat is bad, not letting your child mutilate him/herself is bad. The list could be never ending.
Can anyone comment on the legal authority CMS has to dictate to private medical practices that they must require employees to be vaccinated? Already have enough trouble maintaining staff!!
@ Greg The Class Traitor - I too am mightily pissed that so many health/bureaucracy people want to keep restrictions going indefinitely. As long as there are enough unvaccinated people, there will be enough of a pool of infectable people to keep this virus going indefinitely and the health/bureaucracy people will use that as a reason to keep restrictions going indefinitely. I do not want them to have that excuse.
I got two doses of Moderna as soon as I could and I don't live in fear, even though I know that protection fades and that some vaccinated people can get the delta variant anyway. I also know that every time I step into a car, I could be injured or killed. But I take reasonable precautions and don't worry. If a booster becomes available in December or a vaccine specially for the delta variant, I'll get it. And I won't live in fear.
"As long as there are enough unvaccinated people, there will be enough of a pool of infectable people to keep this virus going indefinitely and the health/bureaucracy people will use that as a reason to keep restrictions going indefinitely. I do not want them to have that excuse."
Roger, you haven't been paying attention- the pool keeping the virus going indefinitely is everyone, vaccinated and unvaccinated. Breakthrough infections are not rare and getting more common, not less. This virus will never disappear. They will keep the restrictions going until we stop letting keep them going.
I will remain in the control group. We need one in order to fully assess these vaccines in the future.
@Roger Sweeney:How do they decide now who to exempt from vaccination mandates for school?
You fill out a form that says you want to be exempt because of your religion and they accept it no questions asked. But for COVID they want to change it. From the DOH website:
Religious Exemption: This is used when the parent or guardian has a religious belief that is against giving the vaccine to their child. The parent or guardian does not need to explain their religious belief. The health care practitioner, school, preschool and childcare staff do not need to verify the religious beliefs of the parent or guardian.
I got the vaccine early for two selfish reasons: I don't want to get sick, and I want to see my grandkids. And the quicker the infection rate goes down, the quicker the masks can go off for everyone everywhere.
Whoa! Correct me if I'm wrong, but are you saying you haven't seen your grandchildren during this entire time? That's the one thing that has kept me sane over the past 18 months. We have the entire bunch of them over at least two times a week. Plus, we have taken several at a time on camping trips. Keeping me from my grandkids is a line that shall not be crossed! We have had birthday parties, cook-outs, nerf-gun fights, etc. over the past year and a half. None of us have been sick and I will continue to take that chance.
Penalties for Failing to Comply with the Policy
If couples governed by the one-child policy have more than one child, they are fined “$370 to $12,800,” an amount many times the average annual income of many Chinese. If the couple is unable to pay the fine, they may lose their jobs, their land and livestock confiscated, their home destroyed, their children denied the rights and benefits of the state, like education, or their child taken away.
The woman can also be forced to be sterilized (Hays). If a family planning official discovers that a woman is having an illegal pregnancy, meaning having a child without a birth permit, he or she can force the woman to have an abortion.
The Chinese government has ensured terrible consequences for failing to comply with the one-child policy."
You do the math.
I wouldn't want to be part of any cabal that accepts me as a member...."Brand New Cherry Flavor" has a lurid title. Is there much nudity? Is the imperilled heroine hot?....Ever since the metoo movement, horror movies have gone all to crap. The girls don't even wear tight t-shirts anymore. The gore is more realistic though. What they lack in boobs, they make up for in arterial bleeding.....I read through the comments. Someone here actually took the trouble to watch an episode so his efforts weren't all in vain.
Apart from a few, I'm afraid most of you here are describing/understanding the mandate wrong.
What Biden is demanding is that businesses fire their employees.
He is demanding that people lose their jobs . . . unless they agree to give up their bodily integrity and receive the vaccine.
He is dictating that people starve or comply.
Signs
The signs say: “UNLAWFUL GATHERINGS ARE NOT PERMITTED.”
So I put my mask up under my hat and I went in to ask them why
They said “you look like a fine upstanding old man, got no beefs with you”
So I took out my paste and said “Imagine that… now you go sh*t in yer shoe”
Signs Signs
Everywhere a sign
Fu*king up the scenery
Breaking my mind
Take this, don’t take that
Can’t you read the sign
Oh Say now mister Can’t you read
You got to have a shot and a card to get a seat
You can’t watch Don’t take a seat You ain’t supposed to be here
And the sign says “You got to have a vaccination card to get inside”
Huh!!!
the pool keeping the virus going indefinitely is everyone, vaccinated and unvaccinated. Breakthrough infections are not rare and getting more common, not less. This virus will never disappear.
To be sure, as with antibiotics and MRSA, it is among the VACCINATED that the coronavirus (or any virus or bacteria) will mutate. With the unvaccinated, it has no need to change from the original lab-engineered version.
Bad news for the mandate and Biden.
While there is overlap because some previously infected people have been vaccinated, roughly 80 percent of the country has vaccine or natural immunity. Both types of immunity provide effective protection against Covid-19. The risk of breakthrough infections among the vaccinated is small, and when they occur, the vaccines continue to be effective in preventing serious illness, even for the Delta variant. The CDC also acknowledges that reinfection of recovered Covid-19 patients is rare.
Jamie at 3:45...
You’ve bumbled your way into an actually useful point. Those of us in the vaccinated super-majority are going to start throwing our market weight around. I WANT every office, airline, stadium, theater, grocery store, church, etc., etc., that I patronize to require vaccines and masks.
And I’m tired of arguing with the anti-vaxxers and anti-maskers. I don’t want to fight with them. I want every major private business and accommodation to just require them. Let the antis sue. They will lose. Forget the government. This is like the Texas abortion law. Let the private sector reflect the supermajority support for vaccinations. The corporate leaders aren’t stupid. The are educated elites. They are vaccinated. Their families are vaccinated.
And now, continuing that theme is this; health insurers no longer waiving co-payment requirements in cases of people who are hospitalized with COVID after remaining unvaccinated:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/covid-health-insurance-cost-treatment/
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/covid-health-insurance-cost-treatment/
Filed Under "Not A Surprise At All": noted "neo-liberal Deep State Fanzine" (as one online wag put it) National Review has come out swinging in full support of Dementia Boy's normz crushing executive order pronouncements.
Looks like Google and Facebooks purchasing of Rich Lowry and the rest of the FakeCons has finally reached critical mass and National Review figures, what the hell, lets just become the new The Atlantic and see if we can keep cashing all those fabulous lefty billionaire checks.
The "Conservative Case for why Biden is always right" is basically all you're ever going to see over there from now on.
So "Principled".
So "TrueCon".
The big deal is the stopping point. What if everyone who works for companies with more than 100 emplyees has to wear a monitor to ensure they get enough sleep and walk far enough each day. Does everyone have to get a flu shot? This just seems way beyond anything justified by the threat. Does the government get to count our calories?
I'm vaxxed because I'm old and fat and I will probably get a booster because my doctor thinks it's a good idea, but if I were 30 and I was reading about how in five years they's have some results from studies on menstruation and fertility, I would not be getting in line.
In harmony with the unarmed insurrection at US Capitol, France has discovered the joys of holding block parties and parades instead of the usual vacay abroad.
Odd, that.
Greg,
You know there are available prophylaxis protocols regardless of vax status, right?
That's another option...
Michael K,
But which immunity is durable vs rapidly waning and opening door to ADE and variants as well as unknown levels of adverse events through boosters?
Across numerous countries, the reporting systems are crap.
I got the vaccine early for two selfish reasons: I don't want to get sick, and I want to see my grandkids. And the quicker the infection rate goes down, the quicker the masks can go off for everyone everywhere.
The mother of one of out grandchildren lives with her parents- she's incapable of living on her own, but the female judge decided she would be a better parent then a soldier. When he's here, everyone is together, no masking, no one cares about distance or touching or hugging. When I drop him off there- his other set of grandparents are masked and gloved for their grandchild. I'd complain to child services about the mental child abuse- but I fear they would decided we were unfit grandparents for refusing to mask.
As for me and my house we will continue to do the complete opposite of what this senile dictator says.
“The "big deal" is that the anti-SARS-CoV-2 vaccines are a very new and different approach to vaccination. They have no track record in large-scale deployment. Hell, they didn't even complete 3rd-stage clinical testing before approval for emergency use.”
“These are not tried-and-true vaccines, but they are treated as though they are. I don't care to be part of that experiment. I want to see how things flesh out.”
We do know that the FDA redefined “vaccine” just last week, to cover these experimental treatments (still only available via EUAs, though there is a Pfizer variant that has been FDA approved - it just hasn’t been produced yet). And Wikipedia didn’t include mRNA vaccines as such when the virus hit us in 1/2020. We also know that these three “vaccines” are not “sterilizing”, as contrasted to normal vaccines, as well as the natural immunity gained from surviving a viral disease. One of the side effects of non sterilizing vaccines is apparently an increase in the mutation rate, and possibly the lethality of the vaccine. We also know that the therapeutics are much more effective than advertised, and can plausibly posit that the reason for that in this country is that acknowledgment of their efficacy would tend to negate the legal justification for the EUAs (only available if there are no good therapeutics available).
Think about that for a minute - the vaccines being required are not FDA approved, but rather only available under their Experimental Use Authorizations (EUAs). (And the EUAs are probably only valid by suppressing information about efficacy of therapeutics).
What we don’t know are the side effects - their severity and their frequency. There is a lot of evidence that the side effects are more significant than are being portrayed by the authorities, and, indeed, despite my age, I know more people who have been hospitalized by the vaccine, than the virus. The side effects seem to be somewhat inversely related to age, as contrasted to the virus itself, which appears to be almost exponentially related to age. That means that there is very likely an age where the vaccines are more deadly than the virus. I certainly wouldn’t vaccinate kids or grandkids under 18.
What is a bit scary though is that there seems to be a concerted effort by the FDA, CDC, etc to hide the side effects of the vaccines. They seem to be increasing, with the vaccines penetrating to younger and younger ages, and the apparent inverse age relationship with side effects. These agencies have been playing games all along with how they collect their statistics, and how they fudge results. They wanted a lot of COVID-19 cases, and esp deaths, so they counted people dying WITH COVID-19 as if they died FROM COVID-19. They appear to be playing the same game, only in reverse, with side effects of the vaccines.
Something else. The statistical education level for vaccine resisters is interesting. Up through a bachelor’s degree, the more education you have, the more likely it is that you accept the vaccines. But that is not the case with people with doctorate degrees. They question the vaccines at a similar level to those with less than a high school diploma. Why? Possibly because they better see through the hype and the BS. And possibly because many of them are numerate, and can do better at reading the research critically.
Illegals spewing into the country don't have to be vaccinated, so WHY the hell should anybody here?? I am vaccinated. Now I am worried why they are pushing so hard, when they have exceptions. I don't know if I will take any boosters. Why bother?? I don't TRUST the Government. THEY did this. They made us distrust them.
And Chuck. Go pound sand. Nobody cares what you progressives want. Go sit with your illegal friends that aren't vaccinated and get back to me.
He is dictating that people starve or comply.
This is exactly what I was saying - only much more pithily said.
The "he" in the original comment was Biden, but could be anyone - Chuck, for instance - who believes that letting the "vaccinated supermajority [of which I am one, not that it matters] throw their market weight around" by demanding that every store require both a vaccine passport and a mask (both! Because that much-used hanky over half your face that you lift whenever you talk to someone will definitely close the gap between vaccine effectiveness and the magical kingdom of zero risk) is the same thing as voting with your feet.
The first is a temper tantrum - do what I want or I'll start throwing things! - reminiscent of those mostly peaceful riots we all enjoyed so much last year, and, unchecked, is how horrible children become so horrible. The second is what adults in a free society do.
As the only one with young kids, I just want to point out that about ten years ago there was an enormous fight over the HPV vaccine and whether or not it would be mandated by states. I believe Texas mandated it initially; that mandate was overturned by the legislature. HPV vaccine has been available since 2006; it's only mandated in four states, one of which started mandating last year.
Do you see how different this is than forcing everyone to get it in 2006 when the vaccine was introduced?
Drago - links to NR support for mandates? I took a quick look and the only one I saw was the predictable victim-blaming Corner post by Jonah Goldberg. The Editors came out with a sober analysis saying basically Biden has zero right to do this.
Pro-marxist LLR Chuck offers is very very adament that our full on fascist democratical Installed *"president's" unconstitutional policies not be opposed.
What a coincidence!
6 straight years of LLR Chuck's preferred policies being in perfect alignment with the far left!
Why its almost as if LLR Chuck's posturing as a "conservative" is some sort of sham.......
I don't have a full understanding of the possible long-term side effects and neither do any of you. I also have 3 strong, extremely fit daughters who want to have children. What are the possible long-term side effects on fertility and/or birth defects? Time will tell.
The clinical trial process normally conducted over many years was not followed and the control group was intentionally "lost" plus the CDC and FDA are useful idiots for Leftists and Big Pharma. In addition, the "vaxxed" are not immune from infection and can, in fact, carry a high viral load and spread variants to others. Why are they exempt from weekly testing? Simple question ... have at it lab rats.
Chuck said...
Those of us in the vaccinated super-majority are going to start throwing our market weight around. I WANT every office, airline, stadium, theater, grocery store, church, etc., etc., that I patronize to require vaccines and masks.
That, Chuck, is because you're a fruitcake and religious zealot.
Just as KKK members can WANT black poeple out of stores, etc., you can wan nth e"unvaccinated" out.
But neither of you are entitled to get your way
walter said...
Greg,
You know there are available prophylaxis protocols regardless of vax status, right?
If that was directed at me, I have no understanding of what point you're trying to make
walter said...
Michael K,
But which immunity is durable vs rapidly waning and opening door to ADE and variants as well as unknown levels of adverse events through boosters?
Across numerous countries, the reporting systems are crap.
According to a massive Israeli study, "having had Covid, and not the vaccine" creates far better protection that "having had the vaccine, but not had Covid"
https://pjmedia.com/news-and-politics/stacey-lennox/2021/08/28/natural-immunity-for-the-win-israel-study-suggests-covid-19-vaccine-and-mitigation-policies-should-change-now-n1473725
@cfs - We didn't see our grandkids from December, 2019 until June, 2021. They live in Florida and we are in New England. It was awful. After we were both vaccinated, we went and stayed for two weeks, much of which involved us with them, and the parents on a much-delayed 10th anniversary trip. It was great.
@Gabriel - Thanks for the information.
@Yancey Ward - Breakthrough infections are much less common than infections of the non-vaccinated. And they involve people getting significantly less sick. As far as I can tell, at the present rate, if everyone were vaccinated, the virus would be little more than a nuisance. You raise the possibility that breakthrough infections will become more common and perhaps more serious. To me, that makes it more important to get people vaccinated ASAP.
@ Bruce Hayden - Since Sam Peltzman's research in the 1970s, it has been a talking point among conservative economists that the FDA's approval process is too long and expensive, that it costs more lives than it saves by delaying drug approval or by smothering new drugs in the cradle because it costs too much for companies to go through the many stages of testing and applications. So it was somewhat jarring to see you hold up the FDA approval process as the standard for when you will accept a new drug or device. Many small government conservatives think that people should be allowed to use "experimental" drugs without FDA approval or to use existing drugs to treat conditions that the FDA has not approved them for.
I personally think the FDA is a politicized bureaucracy, with a bad case of "this is the way we do it (and maybe we'll change in a few years after enough scholarly articles and task forces and committee reports)."
Chuck,
I WANT every office, airline, stadium, theater, grocery store, church, etc., etc., that I patronize to require vaccines and masks.
No, you don't. You want every office, airline, stadium, theater, grocery store, church (!) to ban the unvaccinated whether you "patronize" it or not. Because the unvaccinated are literal lepers in your worldview; they ought all to be banished to Molokai.
Look, like a lot of people commenting here, I am vaccinated (second shot early April), as is my husband (even earlier, b/c he got in the express lane as a teacher). But the savage glee with which you and many others are apparently anticipating the deaths of your countrymen appalls me. "Health care is a human right," yes? But the unvaccinated are all subhuman, and have no rights. They can't shop, they can't travel, they can't work at their jobs. They will have no money and no prospect of getting any. About all they have explicit permission to do is curl up and die, and even then, I doubt not, their survivors will need to pay extra for burial in PPE. Leana Wen is only the first person to say it so baldly, but (judging by the WaPo's flaming-rabid comment section) there are many, many more. Are you one of them? I believe so.
I would like to see you explain this posture to a Black 20-something from Brooklyn. No, better, several Black 20-somethings.
Agree with Wendy, ad to build on her comment: If Biden mandated that vaccinations be given as a condition of receiving federal public assistance, as a condition for illegal aliens being released with notice to report, as a condition for federal parole or probation, and to all federal prisoners, then he might have more credibility on the issue.
No, Howard, I think Machiavelli's in the same infernal place that you're headed.
Michael K said...
"Bad news for the mandate and Biden.
While there is overlap because some previously infected people have been vaccinated, roughly 80 percent of the country has vaccine or natural immunity. Both types of immunity provide effective protection against Covid-19. The risk of breakthrough infections among the vaccinated is small, and when they occur, the vaccines continue to be effective in preventing serious illness, even for the Delta variant. The CDC also acknowledges that reinfection of recovered Covid-19 patients is rare."
I tried googling the quote but all I got was the CDC's blather about everybody needs the vaccine. I'd love to see the source if you can provide it. Thanks.
Roger Sweeny @ 2:45 PM ... Research drug resistance relative to evolutionary biology and you may come to understand how mass vaccination leads to viral adaptations as a matter of survival. IOWs, the "vaxxed" are the source of the variants.
"The eviction moratorium is a fantastic unlegislated interference with people's rights and basically no one gives a sh*t. "
You need to get out more. There is lots of unhappiness, even outrage, over this completely illegal diktat.
“ Roger Sweeny @ 2:45 PM ... Research drug resistance relative to evolutionary biology and you may come to understand how mass vaccination leads to viral adaptations as a matter of survival. IOWs, the "vaxxed" are the source of the variants.”
What is maybe worse is that these experimental treatments being sold as vaccines are not sterilizing. That means that you can catch the virus, and pass it on, despite having been “vaccinated”. This often means that the virus has to mutate to survive. The two mRNA vaccines are esp vulnerable here, because they target single (or a very small number) of spike proteins for their operation. Tweak one of those, through mutation, and the mutated virus evade detection.
Howard said...
Cool. Somewhere up in heaven Machiavelli is applauding. Republicans have established a new standard: the means justifies the ends.
No, shit for brains, we've just repurposed the Golden Rule: Do unto others as they have done unto you, because that's clearly what they want
Roger Sweeny said...
@Yancey Ward - Breakthrough infections are much less common than infections of the non-vaccinated. And they involve people getting significantly less sick. As far as I can tell, at the present rate, if everyone were vaccinated, the virus would be little more than a nuisance.
But, by your telling, virus is little more than a nuisance for the vaccinated. So what's your beef?
You raise the possibility that breakthrough infections will become more common and perhaps more serious. To me, that makes it more important to get people vaccinated ASAP.
Except that vaccinated people can get the disease, can act as carriers for the disease, and are far more likely to act as breeding grounds for a vaccine resistant version of the disease.
So "getting more people vaccines" will not actually accomplish your stated goals
@Greg The Class Traitor and Bruce Hayden - Evolution of viruses, like evolution of anything, is a two step process, variation and selection. Variation, as far as anyone knows, is random. So the more virus particle replication, the more variation. There is much more virus replication in unvaccinated people. All those particles will try to infect both vaccinated and unvaccinated people. In order to infect and replicate in vaccinated people, they have to be super-viruses, which can outcompete the defenses produced by the vaccinations. You are right that this is completely possible. And I fear it. My response is to try to reduce (to zero if possible) the number of unvaccinated people who can produce variation. A population with a lot of vaccinated and a lot of unvaccinated is tempting fate.
Of course, to the extent that vaccinated people can also get COVID, to the extent that they can get COVID viruses from other people and the viruses can then replicate within them, there will be both variation and selection in the same person. Another potentially very dangerous situation. Again, my response is to try to minimize the number of COVID viruses that are floating around ready to infect anyone, which means maximizing the number of people who are vaccinated.
The WORST situation is having a lot of both vaccinated and unvaccinated people. Since there are already so many vaccinated people, the only way to avoid that situation is to vaccinate as many as possible of those who are still unvaccinated.
Roger Sweeny said...
@Greg The Class Traitor and Bruce Hayden - Evolution of viruses, like evolution of anything, is a two step process, variation and selection. Variation, as far as anyone knows, is random. So the more virus particle replication, the more variation. There is much more virus replication in unvaccinated people. All those particles will try to infect both vaccinated and unvaccinated people. In order to infect and replicate in vaccinated people, they have to be super-viruses, which can outcompete the defenses produced by the vaccinations.
No, wrong.
In order to beat the current Covid "vaccines", a Covid virus has to have a spike protein that is different enough from the "normal" one that it avoids the immune response targeted at the "normal" one by the vaccine.
If that spike protein is less effective at getting the virus into the cells (which is the most likely case), then in an unvaccinated individual that mutation will have no competitive advantage, and so will most likely be lost.
But in a "vaccinated" individual, that mutation will have a strong competitive advantage. And so won't be lost, and therefore will spread to infect other "vaccinated" individuals.
Because the Covid "vaccines" are "leaky" / "non-sterilizing", IOW because the Covid "vaccines" sill allow Covid to infect "vaccinated" people, replicate in them, and then go on to infect other people, far and away the most likely source of a "vaccine beating" Covid is from people who've had the "vaccine".
The Covid spike protein has been highly optimized to infect people (hmm, almost like it was made in a lab doing gain of function research), which is why there've been so few variants of it that we haven't even come close to running out of Greek letters yet (in this it's very different from the known naturally forming H1N1 that hit in 2009).
So making a spike protein that avoids the "vaccine" inspired immune response, and also is more efficient? That is hard.
So making a spike protein that avoids the "vaccine" inspired immune response, but is less efficient at infecting people? That is much easier.
The first case is what's required to get a breakout Covid in an unvaccinated person, the second is all that's required with a vaccinated one.
So long as the Covid "vaccines" aren't real vaccines like MMR / Smallpox (you get the vaccine, you don't worry about getting infected, and you won't pass it to other people), the biggest threat to you comes from your fellow "vaccinated" people
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