As many of the commenters over there are pointing out, wealthy people don't send their kids to community college. A test of who's wealthy could just be who wouldn't send their kids to community college even if it were free. So you don't have to worry about including the wealthy. What you should worry about is channeling un-wealthy people into community college. Who should go to community college?
Shouldn't the answer be something other than those who need/want to spend less money? Here's a U.S. News article from 2019, "10 Reasons to Attend a Community College." There are reasons other than money. It might be a good choice for those who were not very good high school students and need to "ease into" a college experience. It might be good for older students with a family or a job that they need to balance with schoolwork. And it might be good if you want to go into a specialized career where there's a 2-year certificate program.
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It's a free for all to get votes. Free everything. Dependency on Government for life....YAY!!! Suckers. They are going to serf themselves out to the feral hogs at the trough, and have NO CLUE life won't be as rosy as they are being promised.
"Democrats should seize this chance to reshape the safety net."
Translated into English...
"Democrats should seize this chance to take money from those who earned it in order to spend on things they don't want to pay for personally."
A free college education is worth exactly what the student paid for it: nothing. Without exchanging money for education, the student has no skin in the game. Community college will just become an extension of high school - a place to party without study.
Democrats seem to think that if they just wave their magic wand funding schemes, everything will be just peachy-keen. The Federal government can't fund its essential functions, let alone something it has no responsibility for. Just more deficit spending and more inflation. They haven't learned that pumping funny-money into the economy is inflationary. Inflation is already surging from the pandemic spending of the last 18 months.
What you should worry about is channeling un-wealthy people into community college. Who should go to community college?
Am I wrong in thinking that free community college will simply make community colleges little more than remedial high school? That because they have destroyed public schools, they will essentially extend high school to Grade 16?
Or, as is the case in my kids' school district, you might have kicked butt at a lesser high school in Texas, but at THIS one you find yourself "only" in the top 10% of the class - which doesn't get you the automatic admission to UT that almost every student here is after (that takes being top 6% these days). But you have it on excellent authority that you'll be able to transfer in as a sophomore because some of those top-6% students from lesser Texas high schools aren't going to be able to cut it and will drop or transfer to a lesser university.
So you go to a community college for a year, knock out some general ed, and ultimately graduate as a Longhorn with all the honors and benefits thereto ascribed. Notably the alumni network, I think. We're not native but I'm catching on... In a high school where the bottom of the top 10%'s GPA is 4.88, it's a tough go indeed to be top 6%.
Community colleges offer employment for teachers with gender studies degrees. If you wish to further your study of critical race theory, what better place than community college. People with bullshit degrees need somewhere to go to expand and pass on the bullshit they have learned to a younger generation.
I think free community college is a great idea. Most people will be just fine getting their first 2 years there before going on to a much more expensive school to finish out their degree (or dropping out without a lot of debt because in that 2 years they realized they don't need or want a 4 year degree). And of course make it available to everyone--the rich won't use it so it won't add much to the cost and not making it means tested will make it a stronger program.
The need to save money is enough. As someone who sent two children to college before there were Hope scholarships and free community college, it will make a huge difference to both lower income and middle income people. And for those trying to do it on their own, it is a lifesaver. Having only half the student loan bill for someone who is doing it by themselves is a life changer. Of all the money the Democrats are wasting here, this one truly is a "human infrastructure" project....that should reap way more benefit than cost.
I'm just going to toss this out there. If we worked as hard on improving our K-12 education system and less time promoting BS social justice causes for teachers, then kids would leave high school with useful knowledge and local community colleges would not just be a place to finish high school.
That said, school is not a right. Nor is health care. Nor is your apartment. These are needs or wants, but not rights. You have no claim on me to pay for your needs or wants. My time of life- my work- has value. Your claiming money from me to pay for your needs and wants is a claim on my time of life, my work, my life value. You are in fact making me your slave.
I'm happy to help people in need, and I am happy to help pay for local education, but not at the point of a gun. A gun held by a criminal or my government. Frankly- its impossible to discern the difference any longer. This is nothing but a huge Grift Operation. It'll employ thousands of additional government workers and nothing will happen to the community colleges except for the fact that they will get worse. More funding = more government approved mandated programs, less actual knowledge. We already crank out college degrees like Lays cranks out potato chips. How useful are they becoming?
It's not true that "wealthy" people don't go to community college. My degree was from a 4 year school, but since my wealthy parents were paying out of state tuition, I took cc classes every summer to reduce the cost.
Later, as a sometime professor at both a cc and a 4 year university, I've seen plenty of kids from the upper half of the income distribution doing to same thing. Take classes at the cc for a year, or during the summer, to satisfy requirements at a low cost. And often with smaller classes and more considered instruction. A CC class might offer the same standard entry level courses in a class of 30 vs. the course at a big university where it's taught by grad students to 300-600 kids at a time.
It's always about the money.
Here's one that I have been affiliated with. Graduates were starting at $50-100,000 a few years ago. That is with just the 2 year certificate and perhaps some summer work experience.
Probably way more now.
https://www.northwoodtech.edu/academic-programs/degree-programs-and-certificates/automated-packaging-systems-technician
Currently 60 credits/2 years at $155/credit
Total cost $9,300.
Synegon which builds robots and automated machinery next door will hire students at $15/hr part time for nights and summers. I spoke with one student a few years ago who had more money coming out of college than going in. And no debt and great job prospects.
Or, send your kid to a fancy college costing $20-30m/yr and they can graduate to a cool job at starbucks paying $20-30m/yr.
John Henry
What business does the Federal Government have paying for community colleges?
Does the Federal Government pay for elementary schools and high schools? No, because that is the business of local governments.
" wealthy people don't send their kids to community college. " . . NOW
this may, or may not be true, but; it is irrelevant
The Question is:
wealthy people Won't send their kids to community college... Even If it's FREE?
And this; assumes facts, not in evidence
to wit:
You're Living in your Mansion; with your servants, and your riding ponies
You could, either;
A) spend $100,000 dollars, to send Stephanie to UW for her 1st two years
(which, by the way, will Guarantee that she become (at best) a Flaming Lezzo BLM Commie Pinko)
or!
B) Keep her at home, FOR FREE, for the first two years; Studing and riding Snickers, her Dressage mount
Lots (MOST!) of the 'Wealthy' are fascist rightwing CAPITALISTS!! DO you Really WANT to Help THEM?
So sick of DC pissing my money away.
You want to go to college? Get a job and pay for it.
Same as every other goddamn thing in life that you want.
I've known a few wealthy families whose children attended community colleges in nice areas (one went to a CC in Santa Barbara, CA). Usually it's an excuse for a vacation.
Community College is a good deal for even wealthy people and, let's face it, they didn't get wealthy passing up a good deal. Students could get an associates degree for under $20,000 total where I worked. Then they would go on to schools costing $50,000+ a year plus room and board and start as a Junior. We also had a program where students could take college classes completely for free while still in high school. The majority of those students were from households with higher than average incomes. The students not from wealthier households generally qualified for financial aid and didn't pay anything anyway.
Uh oh. Community colleges had been doing quite well, as I understand it. Washington favoritism should wreck that quickly.
Free for everyone reduces social stigma and reduces bureaucratic "prove you're poor" make-work. Good move assuming you agree with subsidy of higher edu (I don't).
Why should the Dems and Biden be rewarded after the Afghanistan debacle? They left behind billions of dollars of military equipment.
This bill is all one giant Dem grift.
People generally value things based on what it costs them. It's amazing how my children treat my car verses their own car. 4 of my children have worked their way through the community college system as part of running start (spend the last 2 years of HS at Community college and get AA and HS diploma.) They describe the mostly two tiered student groups. Those motivated and those just enrolled. There will be a lot more "just enrolled" when it becomes free. An excuse to avoid work and free "college". What's the downside?
Why should non-college educated workers help pay for others to go to any college?
People are making stereotypical assumptions about “the wealthy.” The wealthy are not just Harvard Law graduates who work on Wall Street and make zillions. They are also your neighbors in suburbia. Small business owners, two income families who have saved and invested, etc. All of their children are not honor students. All of their children are not mature enough to be away from home at four year universities. Some of their children have learning disabilities or other behavioral disabilities that have contributed to their not being good students. So community college is appropriate for children of “the rich” as well. I do not support making community college free; people tend to value what they pay for, and having to pay helps one clarify how valuable the purchase is to them. But do not assume that community college only appeals to poor or lower income people.
I suspect there are plenty of "wealthy" students who are not ready for the full college experience, or don't need it, and community college would make sense. At least for a few years.
Kingpsort, TN, Where I worked for most of 40 years, and still live part-time, worked with Sullivan County to pioneer this idea of 2 years of free community college for all our high school graduates about 20 years ago. And I think it has been quite successful. But people forget that it was done for a very specific reason, to stop the brain drain of young high school graduates from the community and ensure that our local industries - which include one of the nation's largest chemical plants and one of the Army's most important ordnance plants, as well as a big paper mill - continued to get the supply they needed of highly skilled workers to replace thousands of retiring baby boomers. A special facility, the Regional Center for Advanced Manufacturing, was established and training and certificate programs put in place for the skills our manufacturers needed, like chemical plant operators, general maintenance mechanics, electrical and instrument technicians, pipefitters, laboratory analysts, etc. As far as I know, it has worked. But I think it is foolish to establish free-for-all community college without some purpose and a plan for what skills are to be offered and where they will be used. Otherwise it will end up just as big a boondoggle and the student loan program.
Oh for fuck's sake- we need, desperately need, to send fewer students to any college.
This so-called infrastructure bill is nothing, literally nothing but the Democrats raiding the Treasury to pay off their political supporters. Politicians do this all the time, of course, but the scale of this rip off is historic.
As a former Community College instructor, I can say that this free tuition thing makes little sense unless it's tied to an outcome. Even then, given some of the instructors I observed, I'm suspicious of how well this will work.
Also, when demand for classes increases because enrollment jumps, who is paying for those extra instructors? (The question is rhetorical)
A test of who's wealthy could just be who wouldn't send their kids to community college even if it were free.
If you make something free, you remove all value from it. A diploma from El Cheapo Community College would literally not be worth the paper it was printed on.
Isn't community college more diverse if the wealthy kids are enticed as well? Not many will go, but it's the thought that counts.
I would need to know exactly how "wealthy" is defined in this context.
It is not hard to predict what will happen if the democrats pass that bill.
The dollar will lose it's reserve status.
Our economy will go into a true depression.
The wealthy will suck up all of the depreciated assets.
At some point it will start to resemble Russia circa 1909.
The only difference is there is no where in the world for the wealthy people to run to escape this time.
Speaking of Community College and 2 year certs.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iT-vx7bsGiU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VxxYqE4Gil8
I would have less of a beef with 2 free years of trade school. You know, professionals we need: welders, plumbers, electricians, mechanics, etc. We don't need more Starbucks baristas.
If it's free, then it's not worth anything.
During the 60's and 70's, California was essentially leading the nation in every category, including education and economic horsepower. Community College was *nearly* free and the UC system was reasonably priced. Free education is the cheapest path to equality of outcome.
Mike Sylwester said...
"What business does the Federal Government have paying for community colleges?"
Yes, also, how could this be constitutional? Congress only has enumerated powers, plus it can make laws in ways necessary and proper to execute those powers. Funding community colleges is necessary and proper to do what, specifically, that Congress is allowed to do?
By the way, one thing I find interesting is if I, a non-lawyer, asks a question like this of a lawyer, I hardly ever get a real answer, just the equivalent of an eye roll. A question like that is gauche, I guess, if you’re lawyer.
Mrs. Pessimist went to a two year comunity college for her registered nursing degree because her her parents could not afford a four year BSN school even though she had a full scholarship. With her new degree in 1970 she moved to Durham NC and met a clueless pessimistic undergrad at the local college and the rest is history. She eventually got her BSN and two master degrees and became one of the most successfull nurses in the world by any metric. Her pessimistic husband became a physician successfull in his own right who thinks that expensive credentials are mostly bullshit.
As many of the commenters over there are pointing out, wealthy people don't send their kids to community college.
That's not true, I know some who have.
In CA, for example, graduating from community college pretty much guarantees you admission to a UC. Even one you never could have gotten in to as a freshman
So if your parents can't get you an "athletic scholarship" you can still get in this way.
You don't have to be a billionaire to be "wealthy"
Get back to me about the need for ANY kind of federal "safety net" after the national borders are secured and the federal budget is balanced.
(Oh, and avoid amorphous ill-defined terms like "safety net." Leaves the impression you do not have a clear objective or are being intentionally obfuscatory.)
Someone said....
If we worked as hard on improving our K-12 education system and less time promoting BS social justice causes for teachers, then kids would leave high school with useful knowledge
And someone else said....
we need, desperately need, to send fewer students to any college.
Actually, this whole thing "COULD" work out.
Yes, will just be 2 more years of highschool....
BUT! without required enrollment, grading standards COULD be kept
Don't think of it as 2 more years of highschool, think of it as 2 years of Shop class
Two years of shop class, where they Could kick you out if you're not paying attention
College has become useless for the majority of students. They learn nothing but State propaganda.
Send your kids to Trade School, teach them to work hard and encourage them to get an on-line training in business, finance and accounting so that they can eventually run their own business.
They will provide a useful service to society and have much happier and wealthier lives.
At this point, I think anything that Biden has touched needs to be taken off the table immediately.
Who knows - maybe his economic advisers said "don't do this - if you do, it will be fiscal armageddon and the country will implode".
We just don't know what advice was offered, the quality of the advice, and if it was followed.
'Am I wrong in thinking that free community college will simply make community colleges little more than remedial high school?'
Haven't learned to read yet? Try free community college! Maybe you'll learn to read good...
In the '60s, it was 'Plastics.'
In the 2020s, it's 'Trade school.'
Little Johnny can learn plumbing and buy a Ferrari.
That's no joke. My plumber drives one. Used, yes, but a Ferrari nonetheless...
Nothing is free. To say so is misinformation. 4 Pinocchios worth. Fact check is that it means someone else is paying for it. National debt means some else's grandchildren are paying for it. Stop lying about government spending.
---Free education is the cheapest path to equality of outcome.[Howard]
K, then fire all the faculties and start over with normal pay scales and new faces. You could cut costs by 50% and get a viable system again with far lower tuition, even if not "free."
But you still won't get equality of outcome without a large Stalin factor.
The Los Angeles College Promise program provides free tuition in the county to community college first time, full time students. I don’t know if such programs exist elsewhere.
Community colleges mostly teach students what they should have learned in high school. Meaning be on time, hand your assignments in on time. Also CC students have to pay for their education. Even if it is paid for by grants or students loans, the student is responsible for gathering and paying the money, and the degree is not granted until the student's financial obligations to the college are met.
Community colleges are heavily subsidized by the state, and their graduation rates are abysmal, something like 30% of students in two year programs graduate after 30 months.
This does not mean that all CC students are stupid or lazy. Given the relatively low value of a CC degree,and the effort it takes to get one, those who do graduate are not dummies or lazy. Most of the students could make more money, short term, by getting a full time job doing unskilled labor.
Consider the contrast between two 18 year old high school graduates, both of equal intellect and both equally diligent, one of whom has his college education managed and financed by his parents, the other told that he is on his own.
I'll go for "free" community college when it's only for night school for those who are already employed. If it were up to me it would be a requirement that in order to collect welfare and or unemployment one must have a GED equivalent unless that person is medically handicapped. 75% of the population doesn't go to college 75% of the jobs in this country don't require a college education. Vocational education is what this country needs more of.
While tuition might be free, textbooks, lab/equipment fees, and other associated costs (like art supplies, a decent laptop, or required software applications) still have to be paid for. Unless I am wrong on that - still gives the student some skin in the game.
respectfully, i get the feeling that a Lot of you aren't very familar with Community Colleges
(at least ones in Iowa (or Illinois)
about half the classes taught are things like
Welding
Computer Numerical Control (CNC) Operator
Computer Analyst: Data Center Technician
CDLA licence training
Diesel Mechanics
Heating and Air Conditioning
to name a few. It's not just AS degrees and stuff for transfer. When you keep saying "people don't need degrees, they need Vocational School... THAT'S WHAT COMMUNITY COLLEGES DO!!
Clever of the Washington Post Editorial Board to get everyone discussing community colleges, when there’s so much other rubbish in the bill.
How about free trade schools to create mechanics, plumbers, electricians, steel workers, tool and die makers.
Community college is way underrated. I much preferred the small class sizes. I got into pharmacy school, as did others in my class, from community college.
So the Professors are going to work for nothing?? Because NOTHING is Free.
Howard said...
During the 60's and 70's, California was essentially leading the nation in every category, including education and economic horsepower. Community College was *nearly* free and the UC system was reasonably priced.
It was that way in the 80s and 90s, too.
Then the Democrats took over.
Free education is the cheapest path to equality of outcome.
No, it isn't.
Bewcaues many people do not like school, do not want to be there, and do not want a "college based" life.
So unless your belief is that "anyone who doesn't like what I like should have a worthless life", you're heading down the wrong path.
The right path is to stop illegal aliens from entering the US, kick out as many as possible who are here, and significantly cut low skilled legal immigration.
Then everyone willing to work will be able to get a job, and work their way up to one that pays well enough to support a family
I teach in two community college districts. The median age of the students is 24 and the average age is 26. Most students are part time since they work either part time or full time. A lot of them are parents.
The well to do already get free tuition. They participate in the dual enrollment programs spending their junior and senior years in high school at the community college. They graduate HS with an AA or AS degree. The school district pays their way at the CC.
Lots of our students transfer to 4 year schools. Many legislatures have required the state universities to grant full credit for CC classes. Lots of transfer programs exist between CC’s and Universities. Go talk to any admissions person at a 4 year school. They will tell you that CC transfer students have the highest success rate of any of their students.
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