Althouse: At the Sunrise Café...

August 10, 2021

At the Sunrise Café...

... you can raise any topic.

19 comments:

Chuck said...: So yesterday Althouse blogged that weird trashtalky video by Senator Rand Paul. Where Paul whines about what he claims has been the faulty science propounded by proponents of masks and vaccines.

Paul has infamously proclaimed that he won't accept a COVID vaccine, because he claims that by virtue of his having been exposed to a COVID infection, he's got all the immunity he needs.

So this wonderfully clear and concise hammering of the point -- accepted throughout respectable medicine worldwide -- that even persons who have been infected with COVID should nevertheless be vaccinated, is timely:

https://www.thebulwark.com/what-is-natural-immunity-and-why-should-you-get-the-vaccine-even-if-you-already-had-covid/

For my part, I'm not much interested in engaging with folks like Rand Paul about governmental vaccine mandates. I am now much more interested in private-sector mandates. I want to see airlines, offices, restaurants, theaters, grocery stores, shopping malls, and, uh cruise lines ;-) all declare themselves as vaccinated-only private enterprises. And see if Senator Paul wants bureaucratic tyrants from the government tell those private enterprises how they should run their businesses.; 8/10/21, 8:53 PM
Wa St Blogger said...: Thinking off the cuff…. One of the problems with our political system is the mostly binary choices we have. Not only do we have to choose between what often seems like 2 flawed candidates, but often those candidates represent a basket of policies of which we might only like 51 percent of. And then there are the scandals in which the current politician’s party does their best to hide or deflect to prevent the other party from getting power. Maybe we need an easier recall system where we can give the politicians a vote of no confidence but cannot replace them with the other party except on normal election cycles. Probably need to work out a few bugs, but that’s what popped into my head while driving to get my daughter from work.; 8/10/21, 10:29 PM
Mike (MJB Wolf) said...: Aaah there it is.; 8/10/21, 10:35 PM
Ann Althouse said...: "I want to see airlines, offices, restaurants, theaters, grocery stores, shopping malls, and, uh cruise lines ;-) all declare themselves as vaccinated-only private enterprises."

Do you want someone posted at the door, asking each person for their papers? If you owned a store, would you, on your own, hire someone to stand at the door confronting would-be customers? Or do you just want a sign that would tell people not to enter if they are not vaccinated, so that you'd only stop honest people who read and understand signs?; 8/11/21, 4:43 AM
Chuck said...: Yes indeed Althouse. What I want to see, is real enforcement of strictly private rules on vaccinated-only patronage. Whether I hired a security officer to ask for vaccine cards would be a business decision just like so many stores make on whether to hire someone to essentially guard entrances of commercial establishments. Sometimes it's a "greeter" at Walmart. Sometimes it's a uniformed, armed guard at a bank or at a Walgreens on Michigan Avenue in Chicago. Enforcement could be as varied as businesses are themselves.

But more than anything, I want pro-vaccinated customers to make their consumer-voices heard with the businesses that they patronize. I want to see them telling business owners that "vaccine-only" is exactly what they want. So that business owners can take the steps to satisfy those customers. We are already a majority, and getting to be a super-majority.

I'm COVID-weary and I want the pandemic to end. I'm not confrontation-weary.; 8/11/21, 7:57 AM
Chuck said...: By the way, Althouse; you make a fair point that actually speaks IN FAVOR of governmental mandates of the kind that Senator Paul abhors.

It's the problem of what a young girl store clerk does, or some innocent teenaged store employee can do, when the store has a masking policy but some big guy on his way home from Sturgis, wearing motorcycle club colors and with a .45 on his hip, tells them he won't wear a mask and to fuck off. What do they do?

If there were a governmental mandate, the innocent store clerks would have the force of law behind them. That's one really good reason to make it law, Senator Paul. And wherever those laws have been challenged -- especially vaccine mandates -- they have generally been upheld. So, Senator Paul, if that is what you really want, we'll see you in court.; 8/11/21, 8:07 AM
Ann Althouse said...: "Sometimes it's a "greeter" at Walmart. Sometimes it's a uniformed, armed guard at a bank or at a Walgreens on Michigan Avenue in Chicago. Enforcement could be as varied as businesses are themselves."

And these people are going to be saying "Show me your papers" to everyone who comes in? That's your vision? I doubt that you are picturing what that looks like, which is why I asked you. You seem to lack connection to the real world of actual people.

"Whether I hired a security officer to ask for vaccine cards would be a business decision" — that's no way to answer my question! That's just repeating my question. I think you're failing to answer it because you are not real-world-based. You can't do the exercise.; 8/11/21, 8:27 AM
Ann Althouse said...: "But more than anything, I want..."

You want! That wasn't the question. You're just wishing, not thinking about real people. Terrible response.; 8/11/21, 8:28 AM
jaydub said...: "Do you want someone posted at the door, asking each person for their papers? If you owned a store, would you, on your own, hire someone to stand at the door confronting would-be customers?"

Narcissists seldom develop well considered, practical solutions to complex social issues. They seem to believe that because they "want it" the powers that be (government or private) should decree it, and the general public should just get in line. Of course, that type of authoritarianism seldom works for long in a free society because by definition free people have other options and beliefs and coercing them into a course of action that makes no sense to them eventually requires the threat of violence on the part of the state. In the event narcissists are perfectly comfortable with punishing their ideological inferiors as considered appropriate, given both God and The Bulwark are on their side and all. Business owners, on the other hand, have to satisfy their customers and trying to coerce those customers for any reason, particularly when the science shows that natural immunity is at least equivalent to vaccination, is not a particularly profitable business model. Besides, other than denial of service or calling the police on their customers, what enforcement options can private enterprises use? Hopefully, business considerations will find a compromise position short of state coercion that works for almost everyone, excepting the ideologues and narcissists.; 8/11/21, 8:44 AM
Chuck said...: Althouse, what I originally wrote about private vaccine mandates is "what I want." It was in my first post on this page in the last paragraph; "I want to see airlines, offices... etc."

I don't know what I can tell anyone, other than what I want to see.

But yes, I am in favor of any private means to enforce any private pro-vaccine initiative. I am in favor of vaccine passports, public or private. I am 100% good with a private security guard asking a patron for a vaccine card. Like asking a patron for a driver license at a college bar. Like an election clerk asking a voter for photo i.d. at a polling place. Like asking for a passport at an airport.

Just like that. Unequivocally, yes I am in favor. And I am devoted to real-world issues and so I understand that small or even tiny businesses might choose different means. Or, choose not to have a vaccine ban at all. I am not looking for uniformity or perfection. I am looking for significant consequences. I want to see the unvaccinated no longer getting on airliners, or entering stadiums or concert venues. Lose their jobs, or ability to do business in private venues that want vaccinated-only patronage. As a matter of private enterprise. Let Rand Paul argue against that.; 8/11/21, 9:03 AM
Wa St Blogger said...: What Chuck seems to NOT want is respect. He does not want free enterprise either it seems. I think if a store wanted to only allow masked individuals and vaccinated people, MOST people would be happy to comply. Most people are actually respectful, even in disagreement. What they don't like is being TOLD what to do. It's the actually telling that often causes people to do just the opposite. We are kind of a contrary people in that way. It is especially true when the tellers have lost their credibility. We no longer trust that they know what they are talking about nor that they have our interests at heart.

My daughter had a friend who was having an "off to live her life" party before she departed to another state, and her requirement was that attendees be fully vaccinated. My daughter only had the first shot by the date of the party. She was a little mad at first but I told her that is her right and privilege and we should respect her wishes. Everybody ahs a different take on risk and how to manage it, and we should allow them freedom to choose and the respect of their choice.

As for businesses and customers, they too deserve freedom and respect. If you are the only provider in town of a needed service, you better be pretty open about giving people access, but if there are lots of choices, then each business can determine for itself the rules they want to have. No shoes, no shirts, no mask, no service. Dress codes, whatever. But another can say, "we will not enforce vaccine or masks." You as a customer can then decide which business to patronize. If you want to go to a business that wants customers to wear a mask, be respectful and wear the damn mask or don't go. If you need to have everyone in your life vaccinated and masked, then only go to places that request it. If you are too afraid of even that, stay home and order on Amazon (using the Althouse portal, of course.) Don't force other people to accommodate your fears.; 8/11/21, 9:33 AM
nonrandom set said...: "But more than anything, I want pro-vaccinated customers to make their consumer-voices heard..."

A comment on Chuck's desire: If my only choices are pro- or anti-vaccine, I guess I'm pro, inasmuch as I'm vaccinated and would generally advise others to get vaccinated (if asked). But I do not want to be lumped in with Chuck's pro-vaccinated customers. I don't want businesses asking me about my vaccination, and I do no want any kind of two-tier system either. I do not know what the numbers are, but I would guess I'm part of at least a significant minority, if not silent majority.

Also, the idea of having the force of law behind something means nothing without the actual force of law. Are we calling in police to help the store clerk enforce vaccine mandates? That is even more divorced from reality.

All of this seems to obscure the real problem: the benefits of the vaccine are not enough to convince a sizable group of people to get vaccinated. And while I did decide to get vaccinated, I can certainly see how the current messaging around the delta variant and mask mandates is sending mixed signals on vaccine efficacy, to put it charitably.; 8/11/21, 9:53 AM
Chuck said...: Wa StBlogger: I was having a hard time finding anything in your post to disagree with. As conservative, I believe in the genius of the marketplace and of course in the freedom to operate one's business as one wishes. Which would very much include a cruise line operator deciding, in his own interest, do have a vaccine mandate. Just as one example.

And of course, a business might want to also have a wide-open no-mandates policy as well. I'll happily choose any one that I think is protecting me, and a vaccine/mask mandate will only encourage me to patronize it.

But the bottom line -- and this is addressed as well to commenter "nonrandom set" -- is that I would like to see private vaccine mandates become commonplace. With most employers requiring it. With airlines requiring it. With health insurers basing premiums on it.
With all sorts of large mainstream private commercial institutions requiring it. And the mom and pop gas station might not want to participate. The bar and grill in a one-stoplight town might not want participate. I'll avoid them.

I no longer want to avoid the elephant in the room; there is a sizable group of people in the country who never wanted to believe that the pandemic was serious. They didn't want the pandemic to be serious, because if serious it had the potential to derail the economy and thereby derail the Trump 2020 campaign. And everything since has been confirmation-biased.

~We just need more credibility be given to "theraputics."

~The Trump Administration's "Operation Warp Speed" was tremendous.

~Shutdowns of social and economic activity in 2020 were terrible, and did more harm than good.

~The Biden Administration's encouragement of people actually getting the Trump vaccine is bad.

~We can't have anymore shutdowns; even if near-universal vaccinations and widespread mask usage would help us get to a place where economic shutdowns would be unnecessary.

~Shutdown orders by blue-state governors were autocratic commands to private businesses. But orders by red-state governors to local school boards and private cruise line operators are patriotic.

That's the bullshit we're up against. Best to call it out forcefully.; 8/11/21, 10:56 AM
NKP said...: CHUCK:
"I want to see airlines, offices, restaurants, theaters, grocery stores, shopping malls, and, uh cruise lines ;-) all declare themselves as vaccinated-only private enterprises."

ALTHOUSE:
"Do you want someone posted at the door, asking each person for their papers? If you owned a store, would you, on your own, hire someone to stand at the door confronting would-be customers? Or do you just want a sign that would tell people not to enter if they are not vaccinated, so that you'd only stop honest people who read and understand signs?"

COLONEL MUSTARD:
Corporate loves to out-virtue signal its competitors. "No mask, no entry." "Social distancing to the max." "Hand sanitizers EVERYWHERE."

However, managers of their stores and branches (I know a few), while being told to constantly remind patrons of "The Rules" are also told NEVER confront non-conformers personally because of exposure to legal action and the expense and notoriety that goes with it.; 8/11/21, 11:21 AM
NKP said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 8/11/21, 11:24 AM
Wa St Blogger said...: I am looking for significant consequences. I want to see the unvaccinated no longer getting on airliners, or entering stadiums or concert venues. Lose their jobs, …

You know what I am looking for? I am looking for significant consequences. I want to see those who disdain our rights and freedoms no longer getting on airliners, or posting their unAmerican ideas on the internet. Lose their jobs. The thing is some people want private enterprise to restrict and punish individuals with state enforcement. The thing is, just a short flight away they can have exactly that in Cuba, or maybe a longer flight and get it in China. The curious thing is, given that they have the freedom to do exactly that they have not taken that opportunity for themselves. Why is that?; 8/11/21, 11:25 AM
StephenFearby said...: WSJ Aug 7

Fake Covid Vaccination Cards Are on the Rise in the U.S., Europe
Vaccine mandates have fueled an increase in demand for fraudulent certificates as sellers flourish online

https://www.wsj.com/articles/fake-covid-vaccination-cards-are-on-the-rise-in-the-u-s-europe-11628341203

AP Aug 9

Fake COVID-19 Vaccine Cards Online Worry College Officials
With more than 600 colleges and universities now requiring proof of COVID-19 inoculations, an online industry has sprung up offering fake vaccine cards.

https://www.usnews.com/news/politics/articles/2021-08-09/fake-covid-19-vaccine-cards-online-worry-college-officials

Nexstar Media Wire Aug 9

FBI warns about penalties for making, using fake COVID-19 vaccination cards

"...The DOJ said that misrepresenting the official seal of a U.S. agency, like the CDC logo on vaccine cards, could be a violation of federal law. Violators could face up to five years in prison or a $5,000 fine."

"Could be a violation?"

https://www.wfla.com/community/health/coronavirus/fbi-warns-about-penalties-for-making-using-fake-covid-19-vaccination-cards/; 8/11/21, 12:58 PM
Wa St Blogger said...: Chuck,

I appreciate your magnanimity addressing an earlier post of mine. Maybe I am taking too big an exception to your strong language. Banning people from travel, costing them jobs? That is harsh rhetoric. You may be convinced that Covid is a apocalyptic virus, but not everyone agrees, and by not everyone, I mean people who have expertise in the matter. Also not everyone agrees about the best approach to managing it. Harsh punishments for even honest dissention is not respectful. You might be assuming that all dissenters are MAGA rubes, but I think the population set is much more diverse and nuanced.

The Blogger spouse and I differ a lot on the risks, responses and remedies. We are both educated, well read and rational in our approaches. We also respect each other and grant that the other might be correct. Neither of us would be particularly happy if the other were barre3d from work or travel due to that difference.

Now, confirmation bias is a two-way street. You seem to only care about those whose bias is different than yours. I can give an almost mirror image to every point you made.

I have very personal stakes in this. I have at-risk children and parents, but I am in charge of managing our response, and I don't agree that someone else should be in charge of dictating how I do that. Personally, I am contemptuous of the anti-vaxxers when it comes to MMR and other well-proven remedies, but I understand someone's hesitancy over un-tested protocols that don't actually prevent infection. I grant them grace and respect in this case.; 8/11/21, 1:51 PM
Chuck said...: Again, Wa StBlogger;

I've been trying to focus on private sector responses in an age of COVID debating. I am starting from the position that private sector responses avoid all of the arguments about "bureaucratic tyrants," "punishments," and "orders." The private sector is businessmen making choices in the interests of their businesses, employees and customers. They aren't running for office. I have been trying to focus on an aspect that is particularly uncomfortable for guys like Rand Paul and Ron Johnson (guys who usually stick up for the broad prerogatives of business) to argue; they will need to argue (won't they?!?) that businesses shouldn't have the freedom to enforce mask and vaccine mandates.

I know lots of people who voted for Trump in 2016. I was one of them. I know only slightly fewer people who voted for Trump in 2020. I know of almost no one who hasn't gotten the COVID vaccine. In fairness to you, I don't think it is too much of a stretch to say that I assume that all COVID vaccine-dissenters are MAGA rubes. I have yet to see of hear of a thoughtful, credible vaccine-dissenter.

And one more thing; we do indeed agree, in our shared contempt of the traditional anti-vaxxers (MMR and the like). Donald Trump used to be one. He might still be. I sort of presume that he is still one. When has he ever thoughtfully changed his mind about anything?

The COVID anti-vaxxers can't seem to sustain even the simplest of questioning. Rand Paul, the best talker of all of them, probably comes closest.

But if we asked Marjorie Taylor Greene why not get vaccinated, it would be a laughfest. She falsely claimed that asking her about it was a HIPAA violation (it isn't), and is now serving a Twitter suspension for writing that the vaccines are a "failure" because the spread of virus can occur even in vaccinated people.

Vikings quarterback Kirk Cousins, whose father is a kind of MAGA preacher, was asked about his vaccine status and wouldn't say what his objections were. Kirk's status as spokesman for Holland (MI) Hospital is now terminated.

PGA Tour player Bryson DeChambeau ridiculously said that he hadn't gotten the vaccine because he wanted others to be able to get any dose that might have gone to him. While we have thousands of doses going unused.

There are too many political leaders and celebrities to list, who claim that the current vaccines are "experimental" (they aren't) and are unapproved (they have Emergency Use Authorization, and will soon get full approval). It will be a sorry list of people who died or suffered serious illness between the time that they could have been vaccinated, and the time when full approval is granted by the FDA.; 8/11/21, 6:09 PM