"The Golden Rule is a resiliency tool that allows us to remain in control and win at the bully game. But what makes bullying a game? Bullies want to look and feel like winners by dominating other people. When we remain calm and kind, we win, they lose, and they leave us alone. The Golden Rule is a force for relational change that turns enemies into friends and empowers victims.... Humanity is biologically programmed for what many social scientists refer to as the Law of Reciprocity or 'the rule of nature.' Simply stated, this principle means I’ll treat you the way you treat me. If you’re nice to me, I’ll be nice back, and if you’re mean to me, I’ll be mean back.... Unfortunately, living life according to the Law of Reciprocity means everyone else controls our emotions. They act — we react. We live in a constant state of response to others. This is where the genius of the Golden Rule comes in. Living life according to the principles of Golden Rule puts us in charge because we understand how to leverage the Law of Reciprocity in a way that allows us to remain in control of our choices. When an enemy is mean to us and we choose to be kind back, we reverse the flow of negative behavior. Our enemy’s brain tells them to stop being mean and to reciprocate kindness. Practicing the Golden Rule frees us from living in reaction to a bully’s actions. It disempowers bullies who are seeking control. It reverses the balance of power in our relationships. It allows us to communicate from a position of strength and confidence: calmly and kindly, motivated by positive virtues of reconciliation and peace, rather than negative reactions of anger, resentment, and revenge."
From "The Golden Rule Solution to Bullying" by BrooksGibbs (Medium).
That's a 2015 article that turned up when I googled the question: Does the Golden Rule empower bullies?
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134 comments:
When reading this I couldn't help but think about US foreign policy.
Our Leftist friends believe that if we just show our enemies that we're nice to them, they'll be nice to us. I believe that bullies - whether internationally or on the playground - seek out and prey upon perceived weakness.
Sorry for getting off on the tangent.
The Golden Rule is an ideal, something to be strived towards. We’re not able to follow it perfectly, but our failures will be lessened if others follow it too. The Golden Rule can be adapted to dealing with bullies only if you take a broader view that includes “tough love,” which is tricky in practice.
I’ve seen a number of people recently arguing that the Golden Rule is possible only if everyone follows it—that it requires reciprocity. But I see no reason to think that’s true.
One good punch in the face usually ends it too. Bullying, I mean. Bullies will leave you alone once they understand there will be pain involved. Verbal bullying? Meh. Knock yerself out.
"I’ve seen a number of people recently arguing that the Golden Rule is possible only if everyone follows it" There's a joke in there somewhere.
We all live under the illusion that only other people are bullies, when in fact that role is continuously passing from one person to another.
We are all sometimes the bully, and sometimes the victim.
We are all sinners.
I’ve seen a number of people recently arguing that the Golden Rule is possible only if everyone follows it—that it requires reciprocity. But I see no reason to think that’s true.
If there is no reciprocity, you wind up with the American political system. The Democrats as Lucy constantly pulling the football away from the Republicans, and the Republicans lining up to attempt the kick every time.
what's so bad about treating others, like you'd like to be treated?
how IS It, that you'd like to be treated?
I'd kinda assume, that if i was being unreasonable; people would let me know
That's how I'd like to be treated
The Old Testament "An Eye for an Eye" vs. the New Testament "turn the other cheek."
The Democrats as Lucy constantly pulling the football away from the Republicans, and the Republicans lining up to attempt the kick every time.
That problem isn't Charlie Brown treating Lucy like he'd like to be treated...
That problem is Charlie Brown not treating HIMSELF like HE'D like to be treated
No one is forcing Charlie Brown to play Lucy's game.... Except Charlie Brown himself
If you were being an asshole; would You want someone to Shoot You? Or for them to just walk away?
I was bullied in high school - literally, violently. My solution was to say nothing, and distance myself from the bullies. If they can't contact me, they can't bully me was my thought process. It worked. Eventually if there is no reaction, and they can't find you, there is no "there" there. I still feel sorry for them.
In my business life, when you are dealing with someone hostile, (the modern form of bullying), simply let them vent first, then provide empathy, then try to come up with a solution. You know, like adults.
Glad to see them leverage Christ's teaching: "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." The next step is to honour Him who gave us this rule.
It empowered Jesus' bullies. This Judeo-christian rule is designed for the salvation of the bullied, not to avoid the bullying itself.
When a wolf stalks a herd of caribou, it seeks out the weakest member of the herd. Bullies do the same thing. If returning meanness with kindness is perceived as strength by the bullies, then it works to stop the bullies, or at worst makes them choose a different victim. If the bullies perceive the kindness as weakness, then the bullies become emboldened. Anti-bullying programs in schools sometimes fail to account for the reality that a bully is still in control of how the situation turns out when "The Golden Rule" is the basis for how to deal with bullies. Often the better solution is to take away their control. The infamous punch in the nose. While the goal of eliminating bullying by eliminating bullies is a well-meaning goal, it doesn't account for human nature.
"I’ve seen a number of people recently arguing that the Golden Rule is possible only if everyone follows it..."
Where did you see that? It's not the Golden Rule at all with that proviso but more like the opposite of the Golden Rule, so who are these ignoramuses arguing that and why on earth should anyone care?
The Old Testament "An Eye for an Eye" vs. the New Testament "turn the other cheek."
The two are a lot closer, IMHO, than it first appears. "Eye for an Eye" is as much a proscription as a prescription: it limits what one can expect as a form of justice to equal harm, reducing the potential often found in tribal societies for a cycle of escalating vengeance. "Turn the other cheek" approaches from the other side, admonishing followers to ignore small slights. Together they narrow the range where retribution is permitted.
This reminds me of Prisoner’s Dilemma and the Nash Equilibrium. Which in “decision space” is a saddle point, a region of unstability: should I be kind? Should I be cruel? The payoffs are different. In a one-round game it often pays to “cheat,” to hit first or steal stuff because by definition there can be no retaliation. But in a multiple-round game —the game we are mostly playing— retaliation or reward in future rounds will shape our strategy. Typically what is optimal is “one free shot”: if A cheats on B or is mean to B, B should ignore it if it is not repeated. If it is repeated, B should repay A in kind, hoping that A gets the message that “cheaters never prosper.”
In practice this means that we may absorb a first shot, the bully’s probe or verbal test. But if it’s repeated, Katy bar the door. Not a perfect solution but generally the least-bad one. Is it the Golden Rule? No, but it gives the bully a chance to do the right thing. Bullies being bullies, however, they usually don’t.
Those of you who are rejecting the Golden Rule and advocating the punch in the nose, do you consider yourself a Christian? I don't see how you could.
"The Golden Rule is a resiliency tool that allows us to remain in control and win at the bully game. But what makes bullying a game?"
Nothing. You just made an assertion without evidence. Bad organizational skills in writing. Also, an apostrophe addict.
..."by BrooksGibbs (Medium)."
Now we see why Medium is loosing money. Guaranteed pay for hack writers.
Jesus said that "Do unto others" was already the law and the prophets, which implies that it's an expansion or clarification of "eye for an eye." It can be read two ways, both as "if you want x treatment, you must give x treatment to others," as well as a warning that "if you act in x way, you will receive that treatment in return." So, if I'm a bully I can expect to be treated the same by others.
It also strikes me that very rarely is it the case that there are only the two participants involved. Third parties should be considered. If I was being bullied, I would want others to be willing to rise to my defense, which implies that, under the Golden Rule, I should rise to the defense of others who are being oppressed.
There is no contradiction in following the Golden Rule and standing up for yourself. Indeed, using the Golden Rule as a tactic to stand up for yourself, against a bully, is a tried and true approach. Like Dan from Madison above, I take this approach in my business dealings with confrontational and hostile individuals to great success. Of course, being human I sometimes fail to keep my emotions in check and retaliate, but as I've aged and gained experience that happens less often.
Ann Althouse: “...do you consider yourself a Christian?” A muscular one, yes.
I think even Christ understood that always turning the other cheek would invite exploitation and produce more evil rather than less. I imagine He might characterize that “punch in the nose” as therapeutic for both parties, a kind of tough love to encourage the bully to live a more Christian life.
Wrt the question of whether you can be a Christian and still advocate for the punch in the nose: yes, of course you can. It might not be optimal, but it's certainly possible - since the necessary qualification of a Christian is to believe that Jesus Christ was the son of God who died for humanity's sins and rose from the dead to prove His power over death.
That said, once you declare your belief in all that, you're supposed to examine your life and change it in response. People do this with varying degrees of commitment. Upshot: like everyone else, Christians are inconsistent.
The way to deal with bullies is to yell "That's my purse! I don't know you!" and kick them in the balls.
And this is especially true: "Unfortunately, living life according to the Law of Reciprocity means everyone else controls our emotions. They act — we react. We live in a constant state of response to others.".
Following the rule of Reciprocity you yield power over yourself to others.
The Golden Rule for Bullies: Do unto others before they do unto you.
Those of you who are rejecting the Golden Rule and advocating the punch in the nose, do you consider yourself a Christian? I don't see how you could
It only makes you a sinner...
There's also the Karate Kid approach, in which you use force (in the literal case of the movie, a forceful defense that results in the attackers' getting hurt) on a weaker person's behalf. That would certainly be in line with Christianity, even for the mythical totally consistent Christian.
When a wolf stalks a herd of caribou, it seeks out the weakest member of the herd.
That's why, when walking in a bad part of town, you should not just walk but rather you should leap and skip in order to display your fitness to potential predators.
I suspect the advocacy would be on par with impure thoughts. 3-5 hail marys dependent upon which priest you drew...
The way to deal with bullies is to yell "That's my purse! I don't know you!" and kick them in the balls.
I'm LOLing inside my head right now because my husband is still asleep. Please, please, somebody with a ready video camera be present when Fernandinande gets bullied...
It can be hard to be human with so many assholes around. When you offer everyone the benefit of the doubt, you learn to identify the assholes and avoid them. Jesus made a point of forgiving them in the hope they will see the error of their ways and reform. He was an example to us, and no man has changed the world more.
Still, his end was also an example to us. We forget it at our peril. It humans will do this to one who is perfect in all ways, what can they do to you? What will they do to you?
I found that in dealing with hostile and angry persons in my job - and this was a large part of my supervisory job - it almost always helped to first just remain silent and listen; let them say whatever they wanted to say, let them get it off their chest or out of their system, so to speak. When they quit - and they always did - it was much easier to deal with them. And once I learned this, it was much less stressful for me.
Our neighborhood is, unfortunately, littered with those moralizing wokey “we believe...” yard signs. One line asserts that KINDNESS IS EVERYTHING.
Why not just walk around town wearing a sandwich board sign saying, front and back: “KICK ME. I WON’T DO ANYTHING.”
The golden rule is based on fear, is what's wrong with it. Then there's sado-masochism.
Ohio has exactly one such yard sign, as far as I can tell. About ten Trump signs are wtill up, though.
Ohio has exactly one such yard sign, as far as I can tell. About ten Trump signs are wtill up, though.
I used to see a few in certain neighborhoods around Columbus.
Hmm... that makes me think. On principle, I hate all yard signs, never had one, but this might be the perfect time for me to stick a TRUMP sign out front.
...a Trump sign in the same colored-chalk-on-blackboard style as the wokies. (Funny, autofill first tried to correct “wokies” to “wolves” then to “dorkies.”)
In our super woke school district, my daughter was taught that the Golden Rule is no good. Her classroom teachers, along with the guidance counselor, gave a lesson on this and in my daughter’s words, a fifth grader at the time, said “What if they don’t want to be treated the way you do? How do you know how they want to be treated?” Sorry people, along with math, the Golden Rule is racist now.
Gahrie said...If there is no reciprocity, you wind up with the American political system. The Democrats as Lucy constantly pulling the football away from the Republicans, and the Republicans lining up to attempt the kick every time.
You misunderstand what the Golden Rule is. It doesn't mean being a doormat and letting people get away with anything. It's as much about respecting yourself as it is respecting others. The most famous proponent of the Golden Rule was Jesus of Nazareth, who also said, “I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.” He didn't hesitate to publicly confront hypocrites and other sinners.
Ann Althouse said...Where did you see that? It's not the Golden Rule at all with that proviso but more like the opposite of the Golden Rule, so who are these ignoramuses arguing that and why on earth should anyone care?
I was pretty sure I'd seen it here, though I couldn't remember who from. Thanks to Gahrie for stepping up and helping us out. But I've also seen it on Twitter within the last few days.
Speaking of yard signs, there are lots of the woke variety around this area f southern Maine. I find that amusing because Maine has to be one of the whitest states in the US. Plenty of Trump signs as you go north and east.
Those of you who are rejecting the Golden Rule and advocating the punch in the nose, do you consider yourself a Christian? I don't see how you could
If Anyone Ever Asks You; "What Would Jesus Do?"
Remind Him That Flipping Over Tables And Chasing People With A Whip Is Within The Realm Of Possibilities
Those of you who are rejecting the Golden Rule and advocating the punch in the nose, do you consider yourself a Christian? I don't see how you could.
I always find it funny when someone suggests another is not Christian as God made clear that judgement is his alone.
Ask whether those “kind” people would kindly acknowledge that the Russia investigation and the 2 impeachments of Trump were grossly unfair partisan political exercises based on manufactured lies, and that Trump and his supporters are owed an apology at the very least.
Good luck!
"It only makes you a sinner..."
I referred to the advocacy of the violent response, not to the violence per se.
I agree that if you slip and punch somebody, it's just a sin within Christianity. But if you state that what you believe in is nose-punching when bullied, then you're stating a belief in a system other than Christianity. How can that be a sin? You're simply placing yourself in another system. Is it a sin not to be a Christian?
Or maybe my yard sign should just say: WELL BULLY FOR YOU
In practice, the Golden Rule is the best self-help rule for business and social conduct ever devised.
When you are stuck in a dilemma requiring action, one approach to resolving your next move is to ask yourself what you would want to done to you in a similar situation, recognizing that you are as self-interested as your counterpart.
If your practice of the Golden Rule is inner-directed, it is Stoic in its essence: you can control only your own thoughts and actions.
Bullies don't follow the Golden Rule. Mean Girls don't follow the Golden Rule. They are distinguished by their poor choices.
"I always find it funny when someone suggests another is not Christian as God made clear that judgement is his alone."
Congratulations for thinking of using the word "suggests" so you could avoid lying about me.
What's the Christian position on innuendo, in your view?
Meade--Your yard sign should say
Psychiatric Help $.05. The Doctor is IN.
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
gilbar said...If Anyone Ever Asks You; "What Would Jesus Do?"
Remind Him That Flipping Over Tables And Chasing People With A Whip Is Within The Realm Of Possibilities
In the garden of Gathsemane, when they came to arrest Jesus, Peter pulled out his sword and cut somebody's ear off.
"Those of you who are rejecting the Golden Rule and advocating the punch in the nose, do you consider yourself a Christian? I don't see how you could."
Ever been stalked by a group of older kids from fifth though seventh grades occasionally getting beat up? I finally confided in my father when he returned from overseas. The Colonel who had always taught me not to fight and be a kind gentleman immediately took me to the back yard and taught me to box. The rules changed, be a kind gentleman, but if you get in a situation you have to defend yourself and if they touch you fuck them up. Well it worked, the next time they confronted me I put a blow hole where the ring leaders nose and mouth once were. The the bulling stopped.
The fear and cowardice I felt stopped.
FTR, No, I am not a Christian, and, therefore, I don't feel constrained in anyway by its churches' teachings. I feel free to adopt them when they coincide with what I believe personally, and I feel no guilt about rejecting the ones that don't. Becoming a doormat for a bully isn't anywhere in the realm of what I'm willing to do to satisfy someone else's religion. My advice for bullies is, "Don't do unto others unless you're willing to be done unto." Anti-bullying campaigns, in my experience, are more about teaching coping skills to the bullied than stopping the bullies. Kind of like how a pastor teaches women how to cope with being a battered wife.
"Peter pulled out his sword and cut somebody's ear off."
Yes, and then Jesus healed the man's ear.
God is always renegotiating covenants.
At my work this past year we have been forced to go through the DEI (diversity, equity, inclusion) garbage because our CEO made a woke statement after George Floyd's death that wasn't woke enough. Actually I think we've been doing this because DEI is easier to deal with than to figure out how to address challenges caused by COVID.
Anyway, our diversity consultants have told us that the golden rule is not good enough and that the platinum rule is better. The platinum rule is to "treat others as they would like to be treated". Which sounds good except the only way the consultants suggest doing that is by first seeing the other person's race and treating them the way their race wants to be treated. And fundamentally that is the only way if you don't know the person and don't believe in a shared humanity.
We also told that stereotypes are evil. Do you see the conflict in this? The platinum rule requires stereotyping. It is a Kafkatrap.
I've decided to look for a new job because it has become so frustrating. And I really enjoy my job. And me leaving will probably kill the company. And when that happens the CEO won't have any idea why it has happened or what they did wrong. It's tragic.
"God is always renegotiating covenants."
Man's idea of God is always changing.
We have the the Mosaic Law, the prophets, the Gospels, and the Acts of the Apostles. It is all there. We should be able to figure something out.
I think many people succeed by employing a combination of Golden Rule and Reciprocity, in which you give everyone the benefit of Golden Rule until they fail to reciprocate one or more times. Everyone who uses this simple matrix will always employ Golden Rule with each other, which hopefully creates a critical mass of good will in any community.
There was a famous game theory programming contest that was won by a program called Tit-for-Tat that used this algorithm. It always started with cooperation, and then did whatever the counter-party did on their last interaction.
Catholics like me aren't Christian evidently.
"Catholic teachings embrace Natural Law affirming the personal right to self-defense, particularly to protect the lives of others, especially those weak and defenseless."
Spent my life defending the defenseless from bullies.
"I've decided to look for a new job because it has become so frustrating. And I really enjoy my job. And me leaving will probably kill the company. And when that happens the CEO won't have any idea why it has happened or what they did wrong. It's tragic."
I suppose if he asks what is going wrong, you could tell him that your perception is that the DIE training is flawed and is destroying morale. Does he attend the DIE sessions? He should. It sounds like it is killing his company.
Words, bulling words are meaningless, words can always be defused. The threat of violence or actual violence are deferent animals. Problem with what a bully perceives as cowardice sometimes leads to violence.
Communists said it better in the 1930s. "Morality is petite-bourgeoise nonsense".
The golden rule is a heuristic that provides a sub optimal solution. If you follow it you get a pretty good result, but if you are good at determining who to fight and who to apply the golden rule to you will have a better outcome, your loss function will be lower.
if we're going to destroy Counter-revolutionary thought and root out "racism", well some changes will have to be made to how we think and behave. We can't let the Wreckers win Comrades!
The Golden rule is too simple for philosophy professors. They need to write 600 pages attacking it, with words no one else can understand.
Job security.
I still fly my two sided 3x5 Trump 2020 flag. I'm waiting for someone to manufacture a Biden "vote for a clown get a circus" 3x5 flag. Otherwise I'll fly my Betsy Ross on the 4th of July.
"...your perception is that the DIE training is flawed..."
I see what you did there. And I APPROVE!
The Golden Rule (or "you make your own karma") is good guidance, but not the only thing to consider. There are bad people in the world whose nature it is to do gratuitous evil. They are best avoided, although sometimes that simply is not possible.
The Golden Rule - meaning
"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."
An ancient and mostly pan-social opening gambit to discover the peaceful intentions of others.
turn the other cheek - meaning
A limiter to The Golden Rule. If the second cheek is struck, you know how they want to be treated.
"Meade--Your yard sign should say
Psychiatric Help $.05. The Doctor is IN.
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."
LOL.
Dr. Meade: Looks like our time is up. That will be $.02.
Patient: Wait. Your sign says $.05.
Dr. Meade: I know but I'm taking my own advice and so I'm only charging you what I would have you charge me.
Besides, honestly... the advice just isn't worth that much.
Josephbleau @ 8:33: interesting point, but how will you know that your cherry-picking strategy is better? You’re not running the other branch of the experiment, and you are (necessarily) guessing and mind-reading. You are also shaping the playing field —what message do your counterparts receive and how do they adjust their strategies? Do they see you as a smart kind guy with whom it pays to cooperate? Or as a guy who seems nice and then preemptively nails people?
I am not attacking your position so much as wondering if that strategy results in more information being lost than might be lost by some other strategy as the game goes on.
The golden rule is spectacularly ineffective when applied as a defense against someone who is trying to kill you.
There's plenty of less dramatic examples in between.
Civilized solutions require a civilized context.
A civilized context must be defended by credible threat of uncivilized means.
Cherry picking sounds sexist.
"Tit for tat" is a rule that works better. (There are extension of it that work even better but take too long to describe.)
dwshelf @ 9:01: “... A civilized context must be defended by credible threat of uncivilized means.”
Well said. I think here of Al Capone’s observation: “You get a lot farther with a kind word and a gun, than with a kind word alone.” Or words to that effect.
“You get a lot farther with a kind word and a gun, than with a kind word alone.”
I like that. My anti-woke yard sign:
We believe...
KINDNESS IS EVERYTHING
(yes, but only if everyone is carrying concealed)
Once upon a time, publications spelled out who our enemies were:
http://content.time.com/time/subscriber/printout/0,8816,798214,00.html
Do unto others as you would have others do unto you applies to first contact with someone or a group. If they reciprocate, then all is well. You can continue dealing with them on that basis.
But if first contact consists of them throwing rocks or spears at you, they better hope you're not a better rock or spear thrower.
Almost every religious group has some variation of the Golden Rule. With variations.
Western liberal democratic Christianity is just a thin veneer over our evolutionary paganism. This was done by design to recruit Euro trash to Jesus where all that is required is belief and all manner of transgressions are forgiven.
This milieu gives so-called christian evangelical fundamentals licence to worship an effeminate forked tongue silver spoon mean-girl bully.
Does the Golden Rule forbid retaliation in appropriate circumstances? I think not.
Congratulations for thinking of using the word "suggests" so you could avoid lying about me.
You don't like that I know the Bible well enough that God made clear that a person adherence to Christianity is for God's judgement alone? Is that what you call innuendo?
Or by innuendo, you meant that I was trying to lie about your position when you acknowledge I did not. Did you read my mind to determine my intent?
My statement was spot on to my sentiment. I find it funny. Indeed, I typically laugh out loud, when anyone questions whether or not someone is sufficiently Christian based on their ability to communicate a certain understanding of the biblical text. If this were the measure of a person's Christianity, then why didn't Jesus join in the stoning and instead made the comment he made?
I never lied about your views. I laughed at your silly attempt to question others understanding of what it means to them to be Christian. I did to you what you did to them. If you believe Christianity means never throwing a punch, bully for you.
This rule assumes you are dealing with a person who is both sane and sober. A mentally ill person can be a very determined bully from which there is no relief. I know of several situations where entire blocks were made miserable by one individual. The only remedy was to move.
1.61803398875
I think it's a good tool unless you run into a psychopath who just enjoys hurting people...then you are in for a beating.
The golden rule is not a universal doormat approach. I think we should be wary of making any statement too universal and instead use it in the context that it was meant. If you are a Christian who only follows the gospels, then you might need to take the very meek approach and allow any injustice to occur to you without giving response. However, if you subscribe to the whole new testament then you have additional material to work with.
Treat others as you would have them treat you is very much a great way to live. How would YOU want to be treated if you were the bully? As the bully you have already either violated the golden rule (treating someone differently than you want to be treated) or you are communicating the coin in which you want to be paid (force is how I expect you to use upon me.)
It is not in the best interest of a functioning society to allow people to cause harm to others. Jesus never decried the government from exercising its prosecution and punishment powers, and Paul was very clear that the state was authorized for such purposes. So if a bully is violating law, then it is appropriate to have that addressed since they are likely to continue that behavior against others and harm society as a whole. Taking matters into your own hands is more tricky. If the offense is against you alone and is not affecting others, it might be within the spirit of the rule to turn the other cheek and possibly win the person over. But if the person is impacting others as well, do you have a responsibility to protect others - in the words of Rawls - a duty to care?
I think the golden rule is a personal, not a corporate ethic, and thus we should treat others with respect, it does not imply doormat living, though. It is about treating people with kindness, letting others go first, not demanding your "rights" and "privileges". Being meek. The turn the other cheek requirement, is a little more difficult to get around. However, I note that Jesus is talking about minor offenses. A slap on the cheek is not violence as much as it is insult. So, if Jesus wanted up to be totally at the mercy of those who abuse, maybe he would have said if your neighbor stabs you in the chest, turn around so he can stab your back too. I know I am arguing from absence, but we should not assume that an ethic to treat people with kindness and to ignore insult means we must stand there and let someone beat us to a bloody pulp.
Most people are neither bullies nor victims of bullies. How do they do it?
That reminds me. Growing up, my now-deceased Old Man would often counsel me to consult the so-called Golden Rule. As I got older and, unfortunately, began to resist some of his values in favor of my understanding of rules of the counterculture I began swimming in, he would remind me that "well, Son, some rules are made to be broken and should be broken."
I don't remember Dad every saying to me the words "goodbye" or "farewell" or even "see you later." In fact, after 10 years of dealing with Parkinson's (along with another neurological disease), when I flew out to see him a week before he exhaled for the last time, his final words to me were the same ones he would always — thousands of times over the course of 48 years — send me off with: " be good."
"Our Leftist friends believe that if we just show our enemies that we're nice to them, they'll be nice to us. I believe that bullies - whether internationally or on the playground - seek out and prey upon perceived weakness."
Ha! There's no bigger international bully than the US.
narciso said...
"Once upon a time, publications spelled out who our enemies were:
http://content.time.com/time/subscriber/printout/0,8816,798214,00.html"
Thanks, narc. That was a great read:
"Yours Forever." Today, the children of pity are largely ineffectual; the children of hate are at bay. The West faces the children of power who rule Russia and all Communist parties throughout the world. Against them stands capitalist democracy, which has certainly not fulfilled the shiny, steam-driven dreams of some of its early prophets. There is no need, however, for capitalism to cringe silently beneath the Marxist indictment. The Communist Manifesto made better reading before Marxism had been tried. Capitalism, for all the regimentation and degradation that occasionally went with it, has made a compromise with The Machine which is, on the record, superior to the Marxist compromise with human nature. Capitalism does not get all it can out of The Machine, or give men all they should have. But it has left man essentially free, while it gets more out of The Machine than Marxism does. But capitalism has failed to proclaim, so that the world can hear—and that is not to capitalism's credit—the victory it has won over the argument of the Manifesto.
"Ha! There's no bigger international bully than the US."
Sadly, too many Americans still choose to believe that rule.
"If there is no reciprocity, you wind up with the American political system. The Democrats as Lucy constantly pulling the football away from the Republicans, and the Republicans lining up to attempt the kick every time."
Ha! The Republicans refuse even to pretend to play with the Democrats. Both sides are assholes, but the Republicans are the bigger assholes by far.
"Glad to see them leverage Christ's teaching: 'Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.' The next step is to honour Him who gave us this rule."
Versions of this teaching are found in many or most cultures and religions. There is no one "him" to honor for this teaching.
Ah cookie if the us has been anywhere as ruthless as you say we would have crushed Tussia before they got the bomb, would have slaughtered the likes of ayers and rosenberg before they could contaminate a generation of stupid youths.
Meade @ 10:27...
Very nice...
My 90+ year old dad always said, 'It doesn't cost anything to be nice to people.'
That's what I tell my boys...
"Our neighborhood is, unfortunately, littered with those moralizing wokey “we believe...” yard signs."
The last time I was in Berkeley, those signs are on every single house.
My favorite when they're in the yard of the older homes that often were/are used for professor's houses.
8,000 square foot, 7 bedroom, $6M craftsman-style masterpieces.
But the funny thing is, the occupants still lock their doors at night, and 5 or 6 of those bedrooms remain perpetually unoccupied by 'migrants.'
It is categorically imperative to mess with bullies.
The rise of the trannies is proof that a lack of bullying is detrimental to society.
Whether morality, its relativistic sibling ethics, or its politically congruent cousin law, it's all religious. Different faith. Different philosopher(s). Different ideologies.
One good punch in the face usually ends it too. Bullying, I mean. Bullies will leave you alone once they understand there will be pain involved.
Don't hurt me. Don't abort me. Don't cannibalize my profitable parts. Don't sequester my carbon pollutants. When babies recoil in horror. When they cry in disbelief. After birth we are more forceful to secure our rights. Affirmative feedback with reconciliation.
"Yours Forever." Today, the children of pity are largely ineffectual; the children of hate are at bay. The West faces the children of power who rule Russia and all Communist parties throughout the world. Against them stands capitalist democracy, which has certainly not fulfilled the shiny, steam-driven dreams of some of its early prophets. There is no need, however, for capitalism to cringe silently beneath the Marxist indictment. The Communist Manifesto made better reading before Marxism had been tried.
Stood against slavery. Stands up to diversity. Protests political congruence. What a difference Time makes.
"Ohio has exactly one such yard sign, as far as I can tell. About ten Trump signs are still up, though."
So the majority are bullies.
LOL “non-religious” is exceedingly rich ignorance on display!
"FTR, No, I am not a Christian, and, therefore, I don't feel constrained in anyway by its churches' teachings."
Neither do many Christians.
KINDNESS IS EVERYTHING
(yes, but only if everyone is carrying concealed)
-----------------
“An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life.” ― Robert A. Heinlein, Beyond This Horizon.
"When an enemy is mean to us and we choose to be kind back, we reverse the flow of negative behavior."
This works well, except that once in a while you get crucified.
I am all for the golden rule in everyday life, but I have my doubts as to this:
When an enemy is mean to us and we choose to be kind back, we reverse the flow of negative behavior. Our enemy’s brain tells them to stop being mean and to reciprocate kindness.
I mean, I just don't think this is descriptively accurate, as an account of how either the world or human psychology works once the other party isn't just a stranger, but actually an enemy. Sure you can turn the other cheek, as the Christians say, but then their god got crucified.
Haha, I see Jupiter had the exact same thought I did.
"...Law of Reciprocity or 'the rule of nature.' Simply stated, this principle means I’ll treat you the way you treat me. If you’re nice to me, I’ll be nice back...?"
What in God's name is this writer pushing such 'Poop'. "Rule of Nature' by any definition is not being nice. 'Rule of Nature is simple - Survival'. Therefore, you derive the magic 3 - Air, Shelter, Water and Food. For example, you can only survive for 3 minutes without Air. In every species, including humans, over many millennia, the 'need to survive' is biologically built in to everything. What that has to do with "nice" baffles me?
Man these people are trying to redefine everything with 'fake meanings'.
Is it a sin not to be a Christian?
Yes. Not only that, according to Catholic teaching it is the only unforgivable sin.
gilbar said...
what's so bad about treating others, like you'd like to be treated?
Nothing wrong with it. it's how I try to start each interaction.
But once someone treats me worse than that, I'm a moron if I treat him / her better than he / she treats me.
They don't control either my emotions or my actions. The thing they control is the "limit line" of how I'm allowed to treat them. And their only power is to lower the limits, so that I can treat them more harshly than I otherwise would.
But, since it gives me a great deal of pleasure to hurt bullies, I generally do take them up on their offer
"Is it a sin not to be a Christian?
Yes. Not only that, according to Catholic teaching it is the only unforgivable sin."
Not true. The only sin that can't be forgiven is denial of the Holy Spirit.
In the confessional this week, ask your priest. Pretty sure he will confirm.
Ann Althouse said...
"Those of you who are rejecting the Golden Rule and advocating the punch in the nose, do you consider yourself a Christian? I don't see how you could."
And didn't Christ also say, "Whoever doesn't have one, sell your cloak and buy a sword."
Which I take as Christ talk for, "Lets not be ridiculous about this other cheek stuff." Ya know. Sometimes you have to get their attention first.
I prefer Maimonides’s version of the Golden Rule: Don’t do unto others what you don’t want them to do to you. This is the libertarian, not the socialist, version of the Golden Rule. Leave other people alone. But if you are attacked unfairly, feel free to fight back.
Simply stated, this principle means I’ll treat you the way you treat me.
That is false.
The Golden Rule is to do unto others as you would have others do unto you.
Robert Cook said...
"FTR, No, I am not a Christian, and, therefore, I don't feel constrained in anyway by its churches' teachings."
Neither do many Christians.
LOL!
I agree and I think it is not always a bad thing.
"This is the libertarian, not the socialist, version of the Golden Rule."
More like the *libertarian socialist* version. That is, if we can define socialist as: getting along with others. And libertarian as: only you can do you and only I can do me.
But I agree in principle and I agree that Maimonides had the best approach to the Rule.
"I suppose if he asks what is going wrong, you could tell him that your perception is that the DIE training is flawed and is destroying morale. Does he attend the DIE sessions? He should. It sounds like it is killing his company."
It's a she and she's in every single meeting - there are only 45 people in the company - and it's clear that the feeling of righteousness she gets is huge. She can't wait for our company to become a "leader" in this space and start promoting ourselves at conferences.
And when the now only technology person leaves and the company has no one to keep the website going (by which we get 60% of our business - 90% in the past year) it's going to be brutal.
LOL “non-religious” is exceedingly rich ignorance on display!
Indeed. I can say it has been adopted by non-religious in the same way marriage has. Odd though that the title makes this claim, yet if some note they support punching a bully, then their religion becomes suspect.
I wonder. Does this mean that the solution to bullying isn't best found in religion? Or might it suggest that proscribing rules for dealing with bullying is difficult? Bully is a rather ambiguous term. I've seen people use bully pulpits to tell others not to bully.
Case in point, Joy Behar asked Jake Phillip's "Would Jesus have baked the cake?"
To me, the religious angle is a digression from the simple life lesson that bullying typically ends the moment the bully gets what they give. That is, they get treated as they treated others.
"What is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow."
This is the essence of the "I cut, you choose OR you cut, I choose" approach to achieving fairness. Nearly all children love learning this method as it empowers them in forming and keeping friendships. Every child wants friends and most children want to master the art of being a friend. Business separation agreements can effectively be written just this simply. Prenups too. (Postnups, not so much. Unless both divorcing parties wish equally to have a decent continuing working relationship — something that is rare — which makes it strangely beautiful when it does happen.)
"Those of you who are rejecting the Golden Rule and advocating the punch in the nose, do you consider yourself a Christian? I don't see how you could."
My understanding is that if you accept Jesus Christ as your personal savior, you are a Christian. There is no requirement regarding your behavior, except perhaps that you feel bad about it once in a while, and ask Christ's forgiveness.
" Is it a sin not to be a Christian?"
No. But you'll go to Hell for it.
"God is always renegotiating covenants."
I am altering the deal. Pray I don't alter it any further.
"No. But you'll go to Hell for it."
Which gets us to Pascal's Wager.
Not every self-identifying Christian soul ascends to heaven. It's possible for anyone, Christian or not, to reach their final mortal moments, to come face to face with the Holy Spirit, Jesus Christ and/or God, and to turn away in denial. Bad bet. That would likely be your unluckiest of unlucky days.
"Eternity?", said Frankie Lee
With a voice as cold as ice
"That's right", said Judas, "Eternity
Though you might call it 'Paradise'"
"I don't call it anything"
Said Frankie Lee with a smile
"All right", said Judas Priest
"I'll see you after a while"
I always thought the Golden Rule was, "He who has the gold, makes the rules."
Looking at the recent election, I think it still holds.
This milieu gives so-called christian evangelical fundamentals licence to worship an effeminate forked tongue silver spoon mean-girl bully.
I don't think Hillary had the Evangelical vote.
Pascal's wager was conditioned on uncertainty; by the time one is f2f with YHWH or WHOEVER it's too late.
The Golden Rule made intuitive sense to me as soon as I heard it, and I earnestly applied it when I could, but only to find that most bullies like to be bullies more than they like to play fair.
My late older brother was a classic case. The ONLY thing he deferred to was superior force or its threat, throughout his five and a half-decades. He would take from anyone, anything they didn't guard. He used to babble about Jesus and Marx when he wanted to impress someone with his sociology degrees and intellectuality.
He bullied the sorry chatterbox he married late in life, and ran through the money she had.
Verbal abuse at family gatherings, emotional and probably physical abuse at home . . .
Narr
There's a masochist for every sadist.
The Golden Rule is formulated with an assumption of reconciliation. #HateLovesAbortion #DiversityBigotry #InclusiveExclusion #SocialJustice
I have frequently argued that the Golden Rule is a lousy guide to conduct, because the things that I wish people would do Rto me are frequently not the things they want done to themselves. A much more reliable guide is Wil Wheaton's Rule: "Don't be a dick." It may not be nearly so ambitious in scope as the Golden Rule, but strangely enough, a lot of people find following it to be quite a challenge.
" Is it a sin not to be a Christian?"
late to the debate as usual. Hard to be an active blogger and still maintain office hours.
These tow do not directly correlate. A sin is anything you do that goes against God's standards. being a Christian is simply acknowledging that because you are a sinner you accept His sacrifice on your behalf and attempt to do what he commands. You can be a Christian and a sinner (in fact it is impossible not to sin), but you cannot be a non-sinner and not be a Christian (if it were feasibly possible) since being sin-free would require that you do everything Christ commands, thus making you, by action, a Christian. Not being a Christian is not your biggest sin, but if Christ IS the savior, it is your biggest mistake.
Pascal's wager, as commonly treated is not a good way to approach salvation. To choose to believe in God as a form of fire insurance is not a saving form of belief. At best the wager is good for opening the line of thought that IF there might be a God who can offer you eternal life you would be entirely idiotic not to make absolutely certain you have evaluated that possibility and eliminated it without doubt. The risk/reward trade-off is too large to ignore. It's like finding a lottery ticket on the floor. Chances are it is not a winner, but the possibility of it being worth 50 million might be sufficient enough to pick it up and look up the winning numbers. The calculus changes if you have to pay for the ticket, though.
ex-madtown girl,
“What if they don’t want to be treated the way you do? How do you know how they want to be treated?”
I don't think this 5th-grader is saying that the Golden Rule is racist. She's asked an exceedingly sane and sensible question, which is how, when you meet a genuine Other, you are able to determine what is "good" or "bad" for them.
It's easiest to illustrate with science fiction, b/c that's where the real "genuine Others" are. I just reread Orson Scott Card's Speaker For the Dead for about the fifth time, and . . . let's just say that a lot of misunderstandings can arise about points of that sort. A bunch of humans of Brazilian extraction form a small colony on a planet that turns out to have an intelligent species already on it. The humans cautiously study the new species; then two of their "xenologers," in separate incidents, are staked out on the ground, cut open, and all of their internal organs meticulously removed.
It turns out (sorry for the spoiler) that such death-by-torture is the highest honor the species can confer; that it sends the member of the species into a "third life" as a sentient tree; and that the new species perceived the humans as selfishly withholding this gift from them when they asked to have it done to themselves, rather than take part in what they saw as the torturing-to-death of one of their number. The humans "withheld" the gift b/c they couldn't bear to torture a fellow-creature to death.
Now, that is a real dilemma if you follow the Golden Rule, b/c there is a real difference between "what you would done unto you" and what the Other would want done unto himself. I think your fifth-grader was raising a genuine and valuable question.
"My understanding is that if you accept Jesus Christ as your personal savior, you are a Christian. There is no requirement regarding your behavior, except perhaps that you feel bad about it once in a while, and ask Christ's forgiveness."
Yes, well, just saying you have accepted Christ, even believing you have, is a lie if you don't live and behave in a Christ-like manner. Those who assert what you have heard are the "have-it-both ways, EZ Duzzit" Christians. There is most certainly a requirement of proper behavior.
Matthew 7:21-23
21 “Not everyone who calls me Lord will enter God’s kingdom. The only people who will enter are those who do what my Father in heaven wants. 22 On that last Day many will call me Lord. They will say, ‘Lord, Lord, by the power of your name we spoke for God. And by your name we forced out demons and did many miracles.’ 23 Then I will tell those people clearly, ‘Get away from me, you people who do wrong. I never knew you.’
"I don't think Hillary had the Evangelical vote."
The Evangelicals voted for the Anti-Christ, as is their custom. (That wouldn't have excluded them from voting for Hillary, but her opponent was the greater Anti-Christ.)
Third try!
Vonnegut had a commentary on the instruction to Love Everybody-- not realistic at all, he thought, maybe better to have commanded Respect Everybody.
Most people CAN'T love everybody, get frustrated, and do the next best thing, which is Hate Everybody.
Narr
I'm selective
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