I see "far-right activists," but they are tied to other issues — masks and lockdowns. But "some protesters have shifted their focus" — that implies that some of the far-right activists have shifted from protesting masks and lockdowns to protesting vaccines.
The article mentions the right but not the left:
For months, far-right activists across the country have been rallying against mask-wearing rules, business lockdowns, curfews and local public health officials, casting the government’s response to the virus as an intrusion on individual liberties. But as masks and lockdowns become an increasingly routine part of American life, some protesters have shifted the focus of their antigovernment anger to the Covid-19 vaccines. Last week at Dodger Stadium, the same small but vocal band of demonstrators who previously staged anti-mask and anti-lockdown protests in the Los Angeles area disrupted a mass vaccination site that gives an average of 6,120 shots daily. ...
So there are "far-right activists across the country" but also a "small but vocal band of demonstrators" in LA. Was the "small but vocal band" far right? Or did a sleight of hand take place there?
Another example of what I am suspecting is sleight of hand:
In the Covid-19 era in California, vaccine opponents have found themselves increasingly in alignment with pro-Trump, working-class people sometimes eager to embrace extreme tactics to express their beliefs....
I think what's barely getting acknowledged there is that vaccine opponents are left-wing, and they happen to be aligning to some extent with right-wingers. It's easy to understand "pro-Trump, working-class people" as right wing. But there's no cue at all with regard to the vaccine opponents. I'm guessing they are not working class.
Anti-vaccine activists in the state have long been aggressive at times. But in the past two years, and in the months of the coronavirus pandemic, there has been an uptick in confrontational and threatening tactics. They assaulted a lawmaker in Sacramento and threw menstrual blood onto legislators in the Senate chambers at the State Capitol in 2019....
Throwing menstrual blood sounds left wing.
Protesters who attended and helped organize the Dodger Stadium demonstration [last week] said they did not attempt to enter the site and did not block the entrance.... The lead organizer, Jason Lefkowitz, 42, a stand-up comic and server at a Beverly Hills restaurant, said the catalyst for the stadium protest was the death of Hank Aaron, the baseball legend who died at the age of 86 on Jan. 22. Mr. Aaron was vaccinated for the coronavirus in Atlanta on Jan. 5, and anti-vaccine activists, including Robert F. Kennedy Jr., have seized on his death to draw a link.....
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. is a man of the left. I don't know about that "stand-up comic and server at a Beverly Hills restaurant," but I'm guessing not right wing. Quite aside from his employment milieu, I think the NYT would say he's right wing if he's right wing.
The ease with which many of the protesters have slipped from anti-mask to anti-vaccine ideology was on display in one Facebook livestream....
Has this article established that these are the same people? Who are the "many"? We're told about "one." Just trying to puzzle it out, I'm thinking there was a protest at a vaccination site, and some of the people had a right-wing anti-mask, anti-lockdown position, and perhaps these people were also against vaccinations, and some of the people had the kind of pre-Covid anti-vaxxer position that seems to have more to do with female celebrities and New Age characters.
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My business partner’s son is a physician who rails about his young affluent leftist parents who are anti-vaxxer’s. This is a natural outgrowth of decades of organic, no-GMO, no chemicals causes on the environmentalist left. Our affluent suburban Connecticut town pretends to be rural. We have a town farm donated to be the Town Poor Farm in the 19th century. Various contracting farmers tried to make a go of it and failed. The last was a dairy who’s last gasp was to sell unpasteurized milk. After some people got serious illness buying this milk at at a local Whole Foods, they gave up. Our First Selectwoman tried to blame it on the Cows! Our grandparents were not stupid. They lived with disease and death all around. Pasturization and Chlorinated water were huge lifesavers.
The rightist anti-vaxxers are more in the line of the anti-flurodization types fighting government mandates.
Most of the vocal Hollywood type Anti Vax people are Lefties. Charlie Sheen, Lisa Bonet, Mayim Bialik, Jim Carrey, and I can go on and on. Lefties just love to blame EVERYTHING on the right. (works both ways too) but this is laughable.
I thought most anti-vaxxers were muslims (e.g.), but "let us pray it doe not become widely known."
As for rejecting the coronavirus vaccine, blacks reject it at several times the rate of everyone else.
I really don't care about the politics of those protesting the COVID-19 vaccines. More and quicker availability for those of us who understand the risks and benefits.
blacks reject it at several times the rate of everyone else.
White people to blame, of course, LOL.
Silly people. The press will determine who is right-wing by using their infallible filtering mechanism.
The algorithm:
Q: Do we agree with what they are doing?
A: No!
conclusion - Alt-right!
Check back tomorrow for your daily update via an approved outlet. The penalties for category errors have been updated and it is in your enlightened self-interest to conform to the latest update.
Wise citizens understand. Forward!
I remember I used to take pride in the idea that U.S. news consumers didn’t have to parse our news stories the way those poor Russians did under the Soviets. More proof that young people are stupid. Pravda was simply protecting the Russian people from fake news!
I have been having an on and off debate on another site with an anti-vaxer. She was also anti mask for similar reasons, she has a deep belief that you have to let nature take it’s course. Other than the fact that she was reading a right of center blog, I never saw her make any comments that the left wing people who write for newspapers now would call “right-wiing,” she just really opposes. masks and vaccines and was happy to find like minded allies on those issues.
It’s kind of mystical cult new age overlap.
It's interesting, isn't it, that the activists have to be labeled at all.
Why isn't it enough to say "anti-mask" or "against lockdowns"? People can decide for themselves whether we see this people as right-wing or left-wing.
I'm wondering if it's even true. *Are* people who don't want to wear masks "right-wing"? Some are. But I'm thinking the people having big parties in LA and Chicago despite the lockdowns are not right-wing.
Everybody on a team before you form an opinion! You aren't going to root for Tom Brady if you are a chief's fan, even if you like really great passing.
As far as the COVID vaccine went, even Kamala Harris said she wouldn't trust a vaccine that had anything to do with Trump. So I don't think that helps.
But right now? OK. It's hard to get an appointment. It isn't going to hurt me if someone else doesn't want theres.
The earliest anti-vaxx sentiment I can remember was over claims that the MMR vaccine continued a mercury-based preservative and that this preservative was causing autism. I think the argument appealed to the kind of women that shop at Whole Foods and are into "all natural" and "organic" and are always defending against or trying to get rid of "toxins."
Opposition to GMOs and vaccines were given as examples of the left being "ant-science," a claim that was often made of conservatives. Before Trump presidency, the biggest anti-vaxxers I can recall were Bill Maher and Jenny McCarthy.
Then again, during the measles outbreak in early 2015, Glenn Beck got fired up about vaccines and suggested that opposition to measles vaccination was an issue the left and the right could cooperate on.
These are not vaccines by any conventional definition. This is a massive experiment in genetic engineering. It may turn out just fine, but it's not like there is no reason for skepticism.
I am struggling to cognize the process by which sufficient menstrual blood is gathered to "throw". As a rough estimate, I went with, say a pint of menstrual blood to make a decent impression. At 32 tablespoons per pint, 2-3 tablespoons of menstrual blood per period, spread over an average period of 5 days, I calculate 64 menstruating women needed per throw. This assumes they all use menstrual cups and de minimis losses in transfer from cup to throwing vessel. Of course it could be fewer women if they time their cycles and choose their protest days accordingly. Such dedication. It would take many more menstruating women if the pint was to be recovered by squeezing it out of used feminine products.
It’s important to continue the narrative that those on the right are nasty totalitarians - and everything else. Anyone who opposes the current regimes desires and plans is ‘obviously’ on the right. Ergo, those who oppose anything that the regime wants, as supported by the media, is one of those nasty people; and must be stopped.
"*Are* people who don't want to wear masks "right-wing"? Some are.”
I split my time between a red state and a blue state and I have friends of both kinds, and family of both flavors too. One thing I have noticed is that the main difference between what we ironically call “liberals” and conservatives is that liberals pay lip service to the rules they flout. One family I know who are died in the wool yellow dog democrats have had COVID pass through their family because, you know, they were different and people *need* to socialize.
I am not just saying that to dish out snark, I have been noticing this for going on to a year. I suspect that liberals are thinking that they are "smart enough not to need the rules but those stupid right wingers are not, and they better follow them!”
I really think that what we call "liberalism” today is really about imposing controls, like speech controls, and gun controls, and other controls on the scary red others they seem to lay awake fearing.
i for one, am:
Super Happy we got Vaccines so quick! (Thanx to President Trump!)
Super Happy my mom and dad (89&92 years old) already got their 1st dose (Thanx to Gov Reynolds!)
Will be glad to take, once there is plenty to go around
Am Really confused why ALL the people over 80* haven't been dosed already
GodDamn Pissed Off that young school teachers (and Representatives) went to the front of the line
people over 80* here in iowa, 60% of deaths from covid are to people over 80
Oso Negro at 7.04am outstanding!
While I’m not an anti-vaxxer, I am dubious of the voracity(?) of this vaccine, regardless of who made it.
While I’ve seen ‘excuses’ why this vaccine was so fast to develop, I find it hard to believe that this was developed so quickly, yet simple everyday life-saving drugs are so difficult and expensive to produce. Further, with so many pharmaceutical resources applied to this, who is footing the bill? We are constantly told how expensive it is to develop a drug, who is going to recoup these sunk costs?
Special Note: (i am (this one time) agreeing when)
tim in vermont said...
One thing I have noticed is that the main difference between what we ironically call “liberals” and conservatives is that liberals pay lip service to the rules they flout.
Having spent Most of my life in a college town, and hanging out with liberals;
I'd say
Conservatives say: "That Rule is BS! i am NOT going to follow it!!"
Liberals say: "*I* am SUPER SPECIAL! i do not HAVE TO follow it!!"
This goes with every rule i've every seen; from cheating to littering to gun ownership
At 32 tablespoons per pint, 2-3 tablespoons of menstrual blood per period, spread over an average period of 5 days, I calculate 64 menstruating women needed per throw.
TMI.
This is how I'm starting a Sunday morning?
Oso Negro - not that your point is not well taken.
Rem accu tetegiste.
https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/06/abortion-opponents-protest-covid-19-vaccines-use-fetal-cells
There are reasons. And then- there are reasons. The Vatican may ok this perversion- I never will
It is clear the anti vaxers are left wing loons. The conservatives in my circle have, or will get vaccinated. Those only hold outs are leftist who spout the word science but are wholly ignorant of the science. Most common refrain is the vaccine is too quick, rushed through. When I ask them to differentiate between these new messenger rna vaccines and the old style, they are deer in the headlights silent.
TiV has a good take. All the rules are implemented are for the "other" not so smart conservatives, not the erudite leftists
Anyway. Gov Reynolds has removed all Covid restrictions in the state. Its up to businesses and individuals to take the needed safety precautions.
For the last 3 to 4 weeks its been hard to get a seat at a restaurant because even the Karens have said, enough. Us conservatives have been eating out the whole time. But then again dinning out has never been a big factor in spread. It was just the leftist SOP of "do something even if its wrong" mentality. Wearing masks has always been virtue signalling. Not effective.
Doctors I know say it "Seems Safe". They are older folks. Sort of a Petrie dish for the youngsters? I won't be around to know.
It's a simple formula:
Anything that falls outside of being in lockstep with the commies is "right wing"....soon to be "right-wing terrorist".
Same as:
Everything good about America is because of socialism.
Everything bad about America is because of capitalism.
"While I’ve seen ‘excuses’ why this vaccine was so fast to develop,...”
I am taking it, I have the second dose on Tuesday, even though I know I am being a little bit of a guinea pig, because serving as a guinea pig is one of the few things I can actually do to help us get over this pandemic where so many have suffered so much.
I made this same argument at dinner once before the election with a severe anti-Trump liberal, and he told me that I was stupid for trusting Trump and I should never take the shot. He "certainly never would."
Before Trump, Robert F. Kennedy Jr. was far and away the leading anti-vaxxer. During Trump, those on the left were adamant they were not going to get Trump's Warp Speed vaccine. Now with Biden, it's 100 mil doses in 100 days.
My spouse and I have elected not to get the vaccine. I have read and watched health care professionals, both government and private sector, speak on the virtues of the vaccine and well as the pitfalls. My trust in anything emanating from the government is zero. So that leaves private health care professionals, including my DIL, who will not take the vaccine.
As an aside, I read this blog conscientiously and have seen much discussion on "cycle threshold" with regard to testing and false positives.
" testing and false positives.”
Any statistics class will teach you that if you have a test that’s 99% accurate and the prevalence of the particular malady is one in a thousand, and you test indiscriminately, that 90% of your positive results will be false. I am sure you can see how the math works without a lot of training in advanced math. You don’t need farfetched theories about PCR cycles to explain the high rate of false positives in certain situations.
However, if a person has symptoms as noted by a doctor with extensive training, and is tested, the results are highly likely to be correct. People mix up concepts here into such a muddle, it’s sad to see.
Last week at Dodger Stadium, the same small but vocal band of demonstrators
"Small" is correct - most pictures show only 2 or 3 people, 20 at the most (from a distance with a telephoto lens, so you can't tell if they're protestors or not). e.g.
If you told me that you were going to take me back in a time machine and abort me as an unborn child and used the cells to save hundreds of thousands of lives, maybe millions, I would say “welp” and then “OK.”
If you believe that these immortal cell lines mean that the child whose normal life was taken can never actually die and be released to the arms of Abraham, It’s kind of an abstract point, but I think of the episode of Star Trek where the guy sacrifices himself to eternal conflict with his twin from the other dimension in order that both universes not be destroyed.
I am dubious of the voracity(?) of this vaccine,
I think you meant "veracity", so you'd doubt the vaccine is honest rather than doubt that it's hungry.
Or maybe "efficacy"...
Antivaxx is an equal opportunity mental illness.
Good job, Tim. I like to think that in addition to being a Guinea pig, you are forgoing your place in heaven to make more room for the stephen coopers of the world. That's real love for your fellow man.
Bob Dylan couldn't care less.
Just from the people i come in contact with, it seems that those refusing the covid vaccine are the same people who have been negative about every possible cure or treatment that has come down the line with the exception of lockdowns, masks, and social distancing. They are the teachers who refuse to go back to the classroom in spite of the fact that all of the science says that both students and teachers are safer in the classroom than they are in the general community. Even the CDC and WHO say so.
They simply don't want this crisis to end.
And I don't think it's necessarily all political in the normal sense, although they seem to be overwhelmingly on the left.
I think they just need something to be scared to death of. All of the time.
During my lifetime it was first nuclear war, then chemicals and pesticides, then environmental disasters in general which morphed into global warming, and now a conveniently timed pandemic, which strangely there have been many of in human history and yet we are still here.
"We are all going to die!"
I'm beginning to believe its a psychosis. Or maybe some Darwinian evolutionary adaptation where only the scared survive.
Just yesterday my wife showed me a news article that said that this will never end because there are now 4000 new mutations of the virus. If one doesn't get you the next one will.
But just in case we somehow we survive, the next existential crisis is already in the works.
Its white people.
One reason to get an education is to learn something about consistent arguments. I have said for a long time that the "anti-science" charge is used selectively. Anyone who questions climate orthodoxy for any reason (windmills and solar fields kill animals, cobalt mines are as bad as coal mines, it makes more sense to adapt to storms than to try to achieve Zero Carbon) is supposedly "anti-science." Obviously any attempt to "convert" gays is in fact anti-science. The attempt to discuss nature in terms of two genders, or race in terms of genetics, seems pretty scientific to me, but both are now apparently prohibited in the academy. There have been plenty of anti-vaxxers on the left. This may be a remaining fragment of the anti-Big Pharma, anti-corporate perspective which is getting launch in the pandering to Big Tech and China. Vaccines generally speaking are one of the spectacular successes of modern science. Maybe the politics will change if people embrace Covid vaccinations--which, frankly, have not gone through the usual testing.
There is resistance to Covid vax from African Americans--especially the poor in the inner city. Part of the ongoing problems there, which I think are in no way addressed by de-funding the police, is the sense of a culture somewhat closed off from the world: not trusting the police, any government office, any hospital, any private sector office with an intimidating point of entry. Probably overlapping with rural Trump voters.
They simply don't want this crisis to end.
If you want a vision of the future, imagine a nasal swab stamping on a human face - forever.
If one is asymptomatic, gets the PCR test which results in a positive, can the person transmit Covid if the cycle threshold used in the test was over 36?
If the testing required a CT (read: amplification) of >36, the answer is no. The testee does in fact have Covid, but the viral load is miniscule. As a result, the positive case count can be manipulated depending on the CT utilized.
What's amusing about this topic is the articles referencing this are slowly disappearing from Google.
I saw this article about the relative efficacy of various vaccines. My very cursory reading left me with the impression that I want the moderna vaccine. But I'm on lists, and I guess I will get whatever vaccine is being given when I get called. I'd be happy to hear opinions of others on this question. (This is not promoting "anti-vaxism" nor does it express support for waiting for a safer vaccine. If I wait, it will be to get in the appropriate line for the better vaccine, if I can find that line.)
Humperdink said...
If one is asymptomatic, gets the PCR test which results in a positive, can the person transmit Covid if the cycle threshold used in the test was over 36?
don't Forget!
Just because you had covid (asymptomatic or not) back in april....
And got the vaccine in January...
does NOT mean that you are not REQUIRED to wear a mask at ALL times!
What's amusing about this topic is the articles referencing this are slowly disappearing from Google.
Also from Bing.
Here is my personal anecdote. There are two kinds of people against vaccines. People who were never for them to begin with, and people who are against them now only because of witnessing or experiencing a severe reaction (or death of a loved one) first-hand. Those that are against vaccines with no history of adverse reactions, tend to be right wing. They always distrusted the government and Big Pharma. Those against vaccines due to adverse reactions tend to be left-wing. They always trusted the government and Big Pharma until it bit them in the butt.
I'll give you a clue AA,
If the NYTimes or any of your usual media sources is commenting on "right wing" beliefs, they're lying and projecting.
If possible, they're lying & projecting even more when commenting on the "working class."
Not only does no one at the Times know any working class people, but also none of their associates, friends or family know any working class people.
Period.
Anti-vaxxers have been, in recent history, far and away a Leftist movement. And yes, Robert F. Kennedy Jr. was the leading spokesperson for this movement. He's a madman, and not because he's anti-vaxxer. If you've ever listened to him speak, you would know that anyone else talking like that, not named Kennedy, would not be on the streets.
That said, his anti-vaxxer movement was about vaccines for the kids, some of which many suspected caused autism. Many still do. The problems were that upper middle class and upper class Liberals were ceasing to have their kids vaccinated. (they are also having fewer kids, but that's another story). It is a problem in some school districts.
The Covid vaccine is a different topic and it does appear to be that anti-covid vaccine people come from all sides. There is a very real concern about anything the government puts out- especially at 'warp speed'. And there are those who would refuse a chocolate bar if it came from the hands of Donald Trump, so you can imagine how they feel about a vaccine, created in 8 months for a virus we've never seen.
Once enough time goes by and Biden and his apparachiks have convinced enough of the populace that it's Biden's vaccine, the Left will march in line like good little puppies to get their vaccine. Those on the right...might not.
FWIW, I had my second dose this past week. I had 1 1/2 days of feeling like crap- alternating with chills and slight fever- but that's it. Oh yeah, a second head is starting to form out of the side of my neck. My wife is anxious to see if it's better looking.
Anti-vaxxers as right wing?
One wonders on how many topics have people on the Left been taught the exact opposite of reality to make the people on the right the boogie men. It seems like it's on virtually every topic. Got to hand it to the education system. They are thorough on things they believe in.
natatomic said: They always distrusted the government and Big Pharma.
Wrong. The distrust for Big Pharma is a Leftist cause. While we on the right don't like the gamesmanship, don't like government in bed with industries, we don't campaign or protest against 'Big Pharma'. That's a Leftist phrase if ever there was one. It is the Left that literally coined the phrase 'Big Pharma', Big Energy, Big (fill in the blank).
BTW- the Left loves the marriage of government and certain industries.
My sister, a traditional Roman Catholic who opposes abortion, is against using the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines because they were tested for international distribution using a standard cell line, one that comes from an elective abortion in the Netherlands in about 1973. Explanations that took me about one minute to find on google, that this test is required of all vaccines as a standard safety protocol for distribution, that the pope and other church leaders say the vaccines are not tainted by abortion, and so on, have no effect on her position.
That is her choice, I don't argue religion with family. Oddly, she is not the anti-vaxxer in my family. That would be my other sister, who is what Southerners describe as "Bat S**t Crazy" so as not to be unkind.
@temujin: the vaccine group that was recently banned by Facebook was heavily right-leaning and very pro-Trump. The group was around 600,000 people I think? I can’t remember the exact number. Anyway, the group was called “stop mandatory vaccination“ although most people there were just against vaccines in general, not just a mandatory ones, although I would say about 10% of the people in The group vaccinated to some extent, but were truly only opposed to mandates. But no, the group was definitely at least 90% right leaning, which is what got the group banned from Facebook. Y’all know that would not have happened had it been left leaning
Also, the politicians that push vaccine mandates tend to be left wing. Look at California and New York with their zero exemptions for unvaccinated children to attend school. Even if they have a history of adverse reactions and the doctors tell the parents they should not continue vaccinating, there are zero exemptions made for anyone in those two very blue states. And I think it was New York where children can’t even do the virtual school unless they get vaccinated. Like, they’re at home, away from everyone else, but if they aren’t vaccinated in their own home, they aren’t allowed to attend a virtual public school. And what is even crazier, a child who actually has hepatitis is allowed to attend school (which I’m not opposed to), but no one is allowed to know about it because of HIPAA regulations (also fine). But if a child doesn’t have the hepatitis vaccine, they are the ones considers a danger to everyone else.
I haven’t run across any people who are anti Covid vax on the left, not one. About half of my friends, relatives and acquaintances have gotten the vax. I’m still waiting and will gladly get the vaccine when I get the notice from my clinic. I have heard of people on the right who are anti Covid vax because of some crazy ideas, probably based in Q Anon nonsense. Then right here in the Althouse comments sections you have Stephen Cooper who goes on and on every night imploring people to not get the Covid vaccine.
I have now had both jabs of Pfizer and am good to wear a mask, social distance and be encouraged not to travel. We are on a massive clinical trial, I suspect and it is probably a good thing
Black people are the anti vaxer’s anti vaxers. They are not down with the jab. At all. And they are not right wingers. But if ten percent of them get vaccinated I would be surprised. Their suspicion arises from the Tuskegee experiments 70 years ago. So I suppose there are those who think a million mostly white people are getting vaccinated weekly in order to trick blacks into killing themselves.
mezzrow at 6:46 nails it. Like racism, anti-vaxx sentiment is bipartisan, but will be defined as "right-wing" as time goes on.
stlcdr:
"While I’ve seen ‘excuses’ why this vaccine was so fast to develop, I find it hard to believe that this was developed so quickly,"
My understanding is, it's in part because they weren't starting from scratch or anything close to it. mRNA technology was almost to where it needed to be already. (Those who know more biochemistry than I do, which is at least several of you, are welcome to correct.)
"yet simple everyday life-saving drugs are so difficult and expensive to produce."
But a big part of that is the enormous regulatory burden of proving to the FDA that the drug will be safe. As someone smart (possibly here) put it, that second pill may cost pennies, but the first cost $100 million. In this case the government waived a lot of that. (And I think it's fair to ask what risks we're accepting by doing so. I have the sense they are reasonable, but the question is a fine one.)
"Further, with so many pharmaceutical resources applied to this, who is footing the bill?"
We are, champ! One way or another.
vaccine opponents have found themselves increasingly in alignment with pro-Trump,
They are aligning themselves that brought the vaccine to reality at least a year before anyone thought possible? Yeah, I'm not buying it, and everyone anti-vaxxer I met voted Democrat and would tell you about their experience being vegan.
There are the "people like us" and the "people like them." Anything the Times doesn't like is attributed to the "people like them," and the "people like us" feel good about ourselves.
Of course, skepticism about vaccines can come from skepticism about masks and skepticism about Fauci. It can also come from skepticism about White people or skepticism about Big Pharma (once a left-wing bugaboo) or skepticism about RNA manipulation.
But the "people like us" like it when the explanation is simple.
An interesting article I ran across a few weeks back.
The Anti-Vaccine Movement in 2020
The popular depiction of antivaxxers as “earthy-crunchy” doesn’t tell the whole story. Anti-vaccine sentiment is strongly associated with conspiracy thinking and protection of individual freedoms, traits that are finding a home among far-right groups.
One third of minorities are anti-vax (at least when it comes to COVID), and it has nothing to do with matters of conscience due to the unethical origins of the AZ and JJ vaccines being developed from cell lines derived from the intentional killing of human life.
A large proportion of nursing home employees are anti-vax.
Probably many public school teachers are resistant.
All because the Party of Science in typical fashion decided to slit people's throats with the national-suicidal anti-Trumpism.
The only 'anti-vaxxers' that I ever heard of in the past were all left Hollywood-types.
Typically wealthy, white women with too much time on their hands.
Why didn't they throw in 'white supremacist' or 'white nationalist' while they were at it?
Consider the source; it's the New York motherfucking Times...
Liberal counties in CA were historically anti-vaccine, e.g.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/01/22/vaccine-deniers-stick-together-and-now-theyre-ruining-things-for-everyone/
I wonder what the impact of calling someone "right-wing" who is not right wing is? This also happened with Gamestop on Reddit, who is notoriously liberal.
Do they laugh it off, or does some part of them go, hey wait, is this what they do right wingers and it is not right to stereotype I wonder if it happens all the time, or do they maybe adjust some part of their self and think they're a bit more right wing, or maybe they change their viewpoints on the spot to not be whatever is called right-wing. Or maybe I'm thinking of it wrong and it has become an description you just ignore now because there is no truth to it.
Last year, my (life long Democrat) wife voiced the popular liberal sentiment that the WuFlu vaccine was untrustworthy because the Big Pharma companies were only in it for the money and Trump rushed it to the public.
I explained how Trump provided resources to facilitate Phase III trials and how the FDA process worked, having consulted to the Pharma industry in the past. She had no response and seem unconvinced.
Once Biden was "elected" she lost her reservation about the vaccination. She had the Pfizer shot last week and will have her second shot in a week (teacher priority). She is now pressuring me to get the shots ASAP.
Biden has truly restored our faith in government hasn't he?
"Strongly associated with conspiracy thinking and protection of individual freedom”
Yes, the two are one and the same! No left wing collectivist voting liberal has ever been an anti vaxer, therefor the above phrase is almost redundant!
This is narrative being created real time by the fascists who have control of our government and the press.
Note: Exclamation point indicates sarcasm.
My wife and I would probably be considered anti-vaxxers (though I prefer vaccine skeptic). I don't want to get into a flame war on the merits and our personal struggles with our first kid who had all the vaccines and developed chronic seizures and autism (among other diagnosed issues). I believe firmly that vaccinating your kids is a personal choice and each person can choose accordingly. Anyway....
Anti-vaxxers have been a 'bipartisan' group for a long time. Likewise, the more obnoxious anti-anti-vaxxers have likewise run the gamut of the spectrum. Though, it is clear that left wing POLITICIANS have been more likely to use the government to take away any personal choice in the matter. But it would be accurate to say the primary predictive criteria for who would be anti-vaxxer are upper middle class to wealthy white women who tilt center-left. I also seen the anti-vaxxer crowd have distinct libertarian instincts when not overtly leftists. I never saw right wingers inclined to support Trump in a full throated manner to be sceptics of vaccines. Judging by my own anecdotal Facebook feed, it was likely to be pro-Trumpers posting obnoxious memes about the need to vaccinate your kids. BEFORE THE PANDEMIC.
Everything changed with the pandemic. The wealthy white women were more likely to be pro-lockdown than the Trumpers. And the Trumpers were more likely to be anti-vaccine right up until the vaccine unexpectedly got released under Trump and they needed something to brag about Trump on. The partisan Democrats were vaccine skeptics specifically for the COVID Vaccine because of their hatred of Trump. Once it became clear that Biden won, that vaccine skepticism went poof.
Just another example of partisan blinders driving ones opinion on matters that should be completely non-partisan.
The only people I've seen being consistently against masks mandates, lockdowns AND vaccines through this whole thing has been my friends of a distinctly libertarian tilt who take pride in hating Democrats AND Republicans. But I do think in the meta pre-pandemic, the anti-vaccine crowd tilted left primarily out of a hatred of Big Pharma.
But I also want to be clear not to over value the likes of Jenny McCarthy (or God forbid, a Kennedy). Our own position on the matter, and many others, has nothing to do with the ravings of a rich celebrity but out of personal experience and our own research on the matter (Look at the side effects list on the CDC's own vaccine website for the MMR vaccine, as an example, to understand why one does have to calculate taking a risk that they won't hit the biological lottery and be one of the few the vaccine doesn't agree with). Vaccines are mostly safe. But they are not 100% safe (otherwise they wouldn't list side effects in the first place).
" haven’t run across any people who are anti Covid vax on the left, not one.”
Since the election steal, anyway. We can believe Inag, or our own lying eyes.
Here’s a Democrat anti-vaxxer for you Inag, Kamala Harris
Video at the link. Sorry you probably won’t find this story in the “mainstream” meaning left wing fascist media, she actually tweeted her ant vax sentiment as if she were proud of it.
https://www.dailydot.com/debug/kamala-harris-anti-vax-pence/
We should believe Inag, and not our lying eyes though.
"If the testing required a CT (read: amplification) of >36, the answer is no. The testee does in fact have Covid, but the viral load is miniscule. “
That’s too clever by half. If you test positive on the PCR, and never develop symptoms, then you know in retrospect that you had COVID most likely, and were not contagious. Which is as useful as knowing last week's lottery numbers. If you get a positive PCR, whatever the level of virus, you should be protecting others by isolating yourself, not pretending to know some hidden fact covered by a conspiracy of some kind. You have a hypothesis, it’s maybe even right, but is there a study anywhere looking at transmission and PCR amplification? I doubt it so much that I am not even going to bother with scholar.google.com, but you can go have a squiz.
BTW, it is well established by numerous studies, including studies of long haul plane flights where all passengers where put in quarantine for two weeks and tested regularly for COVID that people without symptoms can spread the virus. The viral load builds over time, and just because you have a low load the day of the sample does not mean that the test can see the future.
This stuff is not hard. I just wonder if the problem with people’s ability to analyze this stuff is because they didn’t spend years in higher math or a scientific discipline heavily dependent on math where the much of the activity involved had to do with looking for holes in specious arguments, you know, because nobody wants the plane you designed to crash because you didn’t consider everything.
I remember still my first day of Physics 115, over forty years ago, when the prof said to the class: “Don’t believe anything I say because I say it, make me prove it to you."
“Their suspicion arises from the Tuskegee experiments 70 years ago. So I suppose there are those who think a million mostly white people are getting vaccinated weekly in order to trick blacks into killing themselves.”
You are not seeing it. The nurses can tell if you are white or black, so they give the blacks the poison vaccine and the whites the good vaccine!
In New Mexico they're throwing out doses of vaccine every day because many of the people put on the list for that day don't show up. They could be anti-vax or they could be at a different address or they could have had covid already. Whatever the reason, New Mexico by state law then throws out the doses which were out of refrigeration and ready. And that's policy in a lot of states. But doesn't it make more sense to have a vax "standby" line from which people come in and get the shot in place of the no-shows? Equity and efficiency. I was horrified by the stories I heard about stand-by lines until I heard about the alternative - throwing out doses.
PS Minorities know that Trump's policies developed the vaccine at warp speed. They have been told by Dems that Trump is a white supremacist and they are resisting the vaccines his administration developed. Why would he be impeached and vilified if he saved the world from the pandemic? White liberals know when to listen to propaganda and when not; and so they are being vaccinated. Minorities are not. Lies that kill.
If you told me that you were going to take me back in a time machine and abort me as an unborn child and used the cells to save hundreds of thousands of lives, maybe millions, I would say “welp” and then “OK.”
At the risk of some tedious commenter saying something inane and tedious, may I ask if you would say, "OK," if the authorities (pretend you're in China) said that they were going to take you and experiment on you TODAY and shoot you in the head and use your remains to help others decades from now?
If you could go back in time, would you say "Sign me up for the Tuskeegee experiments"?
Of course, it is hardly a real comparison.
Because by your own statement, you would have had a choice, you would have been able to give informed consent.
The humans who were killed to create those vaccines and other drugs did not. Rather, they were treated as objects, as things, for the use and exploitation of others more powerful than they.
"eager to embrace extreme tactics to express their beliefs"
In other words, the same tactics leftists have been using for decades.
Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying chuck all the AZ and JJ vaccines into the ocean and burn down their factories and jail their evil scientists. I'm not demanding that anyone not take their tainted vaccine, their fruit of the poisonous tree.
But let's be clear and if someone chooses to take those vaccines, let them take it with INFORMED consent as to its origin.
(Meanwhile the others that have been approved and are in use now were not developed with the unethical, tainted cell line, but they were tested with it. That little association with evil, however, can be attenuated by the fact that they are now being tested on others, on "guinea pigs" in the general population, without such moral taint.)
"Tregonsee said...
"I really don't care about the politics of those protesting the COVID-19 vaccines. More and quicker availability for those of us who understand the risks and benefits."
I would agree -- except that we will be told that we have to keep wearing masks, socially distancing, and keeping schools closed until EVERYONE is vaccinated.
“In New Mexico they're throwing out doses of vaccine every day because many of the people put on the list for that day don't show up. “
If they understood science, like “Operations Research”. They would only unfreeze vaccine at the percentage of people who normally show up, modeled for day of week and weather conditions etc. If they run out then they can give them a free limo ride for tomorrow to get the shot then.
And if some questionable theologians under the color of official authority want to go around wearing millstones around their necks as they seek to usurp individual conscience and engage in classic utilitarian, the ends justifies the means, justifications for being complicit in "just a little evil," that is on their heads too.
I will not be eligible for the vaccine where I live until May or June. Given that getting the vaccine doesn't eliminate restrictions for what I can do and where I can go until the politicians decide to remove them, being farther along on the eligibility list doesn't bother me. If Trump's no longer being in office means a more open approach to offering interventions and treatments is allowed, I might decide to forego the vaccine. Why be a guinea pig for a vaccine for a virus I may never get if there's an effective treatment? I don't think that makes me an anti-vaxxer. It just means I'm not eager to participate in a massive clinical trial. Clinical trials should always be voluntary and only come with informed consent. I don't buy version 1.0 of anything.
I might -- MIGHT -- take the Pfizer or Moderna because the field trials can be said to remove the unethical form of testing. But my conscience will at the very least demand that I reflect upon it.
In the end, I might not for that reason or, probably more likely, I will not take it because of its experimental nature and the way that it has the body's own cells create the material for the immune reaction to kick in. I would rather take the more traditional small exposure to the actual disease. Besides, I have already had one rather substantial bad reaction to an antibiotic that acts in a similar way, which has led to permanent damage. The risk outweighs any benefit.
The AstraZeneca and Johnson&Johnson vaccines I will never take.
According to a professor at Miami, Joseph Uscinski, who studies conspiracy theories, there is no left-right divide in being an anti-vaxxer. There are anti-vaxxers on all points on the political spectrum. I know both liberals and conservative that are anti-vaxxers.
In California, there are certainly right wing anti-vaxxers, but it is largely a wealthy left wing phenomenon. here's an interesting pre-Coronavirus article about vaccination rates in California. Wealthy Marin County (82% Biden, 16% Trump) is called out as having one of the lowest vaccination rates.
But coronavirus vaccine refusal doesn't seem to be concentrated among rich progressives this time around. It's people like hospital staff -- nurses, techs, receptionists -- who have refused the vaccine. One hospital even had to bribe its workers with $300 payments just to get them to take the vaccine. Anecdotally, I've heard that doctors (largely Asian, Indian, and White) have almost all been eager to vaccinate, while staff have needed to be cajoled/browbeat into vaccination. As noted above, the demographics of vaccine refusal are probably more racial than political, with Blacks being the most opposed to vaccination, even if they aren't out trying to shut down vaccination sites.
I will not take it because of its experimental nature and the way that it has the body's own cells create the material for the immune reaction to kick in
Produce a specific protein. Chains together specific amino acids in a precise manner to produce a protein, toxic to a specific virus, stopping its reproduction.
What is the danger of that protein?
Those against vaccines due to adverse reactions tend to be left-wing. They always trusted the government and Big Pharma until it bit them in the butt.
They are also grossly uninformed. And prone to hysterics.
In the first week or so there were six adverse reactions in 276,000 vaccinations. No deaths.
Haven't bothered to keep track since it was a trivial number.
Go ahead iowan, I'm not stopping you from taking it.
Me? I'm first going to think long and hard about it.
It's been what? Two months since the vaccinations first started? Sixty whole days?
Fools rush in.
There is a reason that other drug trials take months and years -- and even then unforeseen severe adverse reactions can crop up.
But by all means, we can rest assured that Jason and Michael Myers are really dead.
The first prominent antivaxxer i remember was Jenny McCarthy.
Full disclosure: I remember her best for her layouts ;)
But, I don't think anybody could accuse Jenny McCarthy of being a right-winger, as far as I know. I believe most right-wing Hollywood bunnies are closeted. I'll die on that hill.
This is the first time I'm hearing of antivaxxers as right-wingers.
There is a reason that other drug trials take months and years -- and even then unforeseen severe adverse reactions can crop up.
I worked in that industry for almost 10 years. Two thirds of the time it takes for approval on a new drug consists of bureaucratic over reach and waiting for some government agency to get off their dead ass.
I have no misgivings about getting vaccinated.
Take the Pfizer trials. Phase 3 study was completed November 18, 2019. From what I understand, we are still waiting for one group in the FDA to complete their review of the data so that they can pass it along to a Board, so that the Board can make a final decision. That Board will approve the vaccine "conditionally" with a note that the trial did not contain enough Eskimos or some such.
Almost thee months have gone by.
Does anyone doubt that the vaccine will be approved?
So why the wait.
Re: Mark:
It's been what? Two months since the vaccinations first started? Sixty whole days?
The Phase 3 clinical trials for Pfizer (over 40,000 participants) started on July 27, 2020, so more like six months. Phase 1 trials started back in mid-March, so it's been used on human test subjects for about 11 months at this point.
"If you could go back in time, would you say "Sign me up for the Tuskeegee experiments”?”
Not the same thing at all. There is a mountain of evidence that the vaccines are safe and effective, although because of the limitations of time, we don’t really know all of the facts, but if I were as sure as I am that the vaccine will save hundreds of thousands, if not millions of lives, a number south of 100% sure, BTW.
And obviously the unborn child had no choice in the matter. I am just saying that it’s probably wrong to make a fetish of it when so many lives are at stake. You seem perfectly happy to put off all vaccinations until your moral objections are answered. You are no different than the Democrats in the bureaucracy who held up the current vaccines until after the election, for “moral” reasons.
So, Althouse likes to blog about stories in the NYT and the New Yorker -- today's blog being a case in point. But what she's doing is picking the narrative apart, looking for the inconvenient fact that the slippery prose is trying to hide.
This is what reading the Times has come to in 21st century Madison. Truth be told, it's what reading narratives has always been about, getting past the spin to the simple statement of the world observed -- how Adam would have described it to his Creator before spinning became second nature.
Does not getting a rushed vaccine for a disease that has a 99.7 percent survival rate make me an anti-vaxxer?
If I never get a flu shot, is that anti-vaxxer?
No. I get to choose the risks I take. If that makes me 'far-right' to the fucks at the NYT? Fine. So be it.
I dont think anybody should be forced to take the vaccine, but if they won’t let you on an airplane or to cross a border after everybody has had a fair chance to be vaccinated, too bad, so sad.
" vaccine for a disease that has a 99.7 percent survival rate”
You can’t look at it like that if you are a government responsible for 300 million lives. How many people should die because hospitals are overflowing and they can’t get their non COVID treatments, for example? The hospitalization rate is far higher than the death rate. But at some point, if enough people get the vaccine, probably well short of 100%, the numbers of people with COVID requiring hospitalization will collapse. Since the whole motivation of anti-vaxxers is to free ride on the immunity of others while letting others take the risks, then yes, you are an anti vaxxer. Do you remember the polio epidemic? Probably not.
I would agree -- except that we will be told that we have to keep wearing masks, socially distancing, and keeping schools closed until EVERYONE is vaccinated.
>>
No. It won't stop ever, unless there is mass (un)civil disobedience.
Pneumonia is something like the 6th or 8th leading cause of death in old people.
Prevnar does a pretty good job at preventing 13 different strains (and they're adding more) of pneumonia.
The max vaccination rate in old people is 70%.
That will be the ceiling on the ronavax.
The "authorities" will use that as an excuse, sure to keep everyone locked down, but to be honest, they will use any excuse. If 100% got vaccinated, it would be, "now we have to vaccinate the kids." Or "NEW STRAINS" Or "IMMUNITY IS ONLY TEMPORARY" or whatever bullshit they're spewing that day.
Mass, (un)civil disobedience up to and possibly including shooting our way out is the only way to break the lock down.
Good luck.
I'll be sitting on my porch in St. Kitt's cheering you on.
I know a lot of people who are against vaccines. Those on the left don't trust the science and those on the right don't like the government telling them what to do. Personally, I am a big fan of science. I actually volunteered for the Johnson & Johnson vaccine trials and was injected in November. It kicked my ass harder than any vaccine I've ever had before, but I'd do it again in a heartbeat to prevent a serious disease like Covid. When J&J released their data last week, I had people tell me that they didn't want to get that vaccine because it wasn't as "effective" as the other vaccines and would wait to get the Pfizer or Moderna vaccine. It depressed me that they didn't really understand the science. Even though more people in the J&J trials actually got Covid, none of them got a bad enough case to require any medical attention for it. That is a 100% win in my book. We're developing into a culture where people are expecting 100% perfect results from everything; but life is really about risk/reward ratios, not perfection.
Loudogblog
Your point is the key one. The important thing is preventing *serious* cases. The J&J seems to do that perfectly. Mild cases are not very important, it’s the serious ones we need to avert. And all the vaccines do that almost completely.
You are on the wrong blog if you are looking for people who consider evidence important! We are awash in COVID denialists.
I am confused. If my unvaccinated body gets on an airplane with the remaining vaccinated passengers, who is at risk? What am I missing?
Vaccines are not magical elixirs that perform without side-effects. There is not a single vaccine. They are part of a risk management protocol. The issue is inoculation, or immunity, not vaccination. It is also that we have had low-risk, inexpensive, widely available treatments since the beginning of the outbreak that could have been advised to normalize community immunity that would limit infections and disease progression. That said, close Planned Parent/hood, isolate medical facilities with symptomatic individuals and exposd attendants, end the home incarcerations, which were the primary locations for viral spread and excess deaths.
Postoperative wound infections and surgical face masks: a controlled study
Effectiveness of Adding a Mask Recommendation to Other Public Health Measures to Prevent SARS-CoV-2 Infection in Danish Mask Wearers
Physical interventions to interrupt or reduce the spread of respiratory viruses
Let's Make It Clear and Simple
Ivermectin
HCQ
The FDA-approved drug ivermectin inhibits the replication of SARS-CoV-2 in vitro
New insights on the antiviral effects of chloroquine against coronavirus: what to expect for COVID-19?
The multiple molecular mechanisms by which chloroquine can achieve such results remain to be further explored. ... preliminary data indicate that chloroquine interferes with SARS-CoV-2 attempts to acidify the lysosomes and presumably inhibits cathepsins, which require a low pH for optimal cleavage of SARS-CoV-2 spike protein
Zn2+ Inhibits Coronavirus and Arterivirus RNA Polymerase Activity In Vitro and Zinc Ionophores Block the Replication of These Viruses in Cell Culture
There's never been all that much daylight between the "far right" and the "far left".
Blogger tim in vermont said...
I dont think anybody should be forced to take the vaccine, but if they won’t let you on an airplane or to cross a border after everybody has had a fair chance to be vaccinated, too bad, so sad.
Does that include people entering the United States legally and illegally?
Re: Oso Negro:
Does that include people entering the United States legally and illegally?
I mean, it should at some point. But right now we're requiring legal entrants to the US to have a negative coronavirus test within 72 hrs of departure, and at the same time cutting back on efforts to deter and prevent illegal entry to the US, so you know how that's going to turn out. Everyone's fine burdening citizens, legal immigrants, and legal visitors, but it would be "racist" to try and control illegal entry.
Re: stlcdr
While I’ve seen ‘excuses’ why this vaccine was so fast to develop, I find it hard to believe that this was developed so quickly, yet simple everyday life-saving drugs are so difficult and expensive to produce. Further, with so many pharmaceutical resources applied to this, who is footing the bill? We are constantly told how expensive it is to develop a drug, who is going to recoup these sunk costs?
The reason why these vaccines have been produced so quickly is because mRNA vaccine technology and viral vector vaccine technologies have been developed over years to be plug and play. You plug in the viral protein coding sequence into it, and then you produce the vector using already known production methods, and then you let the human body do the hardworking. We could have had these vaccines distributed and manufactured earlier, except for the necessity of clinical trials and the scaling up of production. "Everyday life-saving drugs" are unique chemical compounds or maybe monoclonal antibodies, and everything about them from discovery and production and instruction is substantially more unique for every compound. The production infrastructure developed for these vaccines will be applicable to any future vaccine, but clinical trials will still have to be held.
I remain skeptical of the reasons for Black resistance to this vaccine. I mean, yes, of course, Tuskegee, and Henrietta Lacks. (The latter wasn't an abuse of Black patients so much as a refusal to give one woman credit for the cell line developed from her cancerous cells. We've been talking just now of immortal cell lines developed from fetal cells; how much "credit" did those donors get?) But Tuskegee, for example, ended fifty years ago. And in the meantime there has been, shall we say, a hell of a lot of development in the way of pharmaceuticals.
Were Blacks specially reluctant to take the MMR vaccine? I don't think so. Did they balk at treatments for AIDS? Again, I don't think so, even though some of those (AZT in particular) actually did turn out to be pretty toxic in their own right. Do they balk now at the incredible legions of recently-developed meds for, well, everything? Nope, just the Trump vaccine. Because Trump, and for literally no other reason.
I see no reason why special accommodations ought to be made for what is in effect a media-induced phobia.
All fair points, MDT. Then again, a LOT of past medical research has gone on in the shadows and secret labs hidden from public view.
There is very little true INFORMED consent when it comes to meds. Mostly, it is Ignorant Consent, which of course, is no real consent at all.
While I’ve seen ‘excuses’ why this vaccine was so fast to develop, I find it hard to believe that this was developed so quickly
Fast development is not remarkable. The testing phase is time and resource intensive. The accelerated deployment of the vaccines was motivated by an acutely phobic reaction, social contagion, denial of care, and draconian strategies that enforced compliance and cause excess harm. There are alternative, low-risk, inexpensive, effective treatments to mitigate infection and disease progression. The key is to reach community immunity through denial of safe sanctuaries.
but it would be "racist" to try and control illegal entry.
For safety assessments, yes. Also, to normalize emigration reform, including: a fence to discourage hazardous passage, official stations to enable safe petitions, and reduce collateral damage at both ends of the bridge; and to mitigate immigration reform, including: smuggling, trafficking, and transference.
Re: Michelle Dulak Thomson:
I remain skeptical of the reasons for Black resistance to this vaccine.
"Trump!" might be part of the answer, but across the board, adult Blacks are less likely to vaccinate than Whites.
I think it's just reflective of broader distrust of authority and institutions. Among Whites, that attitude is a bit fringe, but it seems more mainstream among Blacks. And in the void left by lack of trust in authority, you get conspiracy theories and rumour. Sometimes it's just nonsense, like the DC councillor who claimed Jews control the weather, and sometimes it's harmful nonsense, like the widespread belief, as late as April, that Blacks are immune to coronavirus. High Black infection and fatality rates in the spring probably had a lot more to do with susceptibility to those kinds of rumours than structural racism or whatever. Current reluctance to vaccinate is of a piece with that.
Oso Negro: One would not need a pint. A little menstrual fluid goes a long way. Nevertheless, your dive into the practical logistics of the protest is spot on. You should pardon the pun. My guess is that the "menstrual blood" would be a bit of the authentic stepped on a few times with Karo syrup.
FWIW, an awful lot of my Lefty friends on FB have been anti-vax for years, even before COVID. At least according to my FB feed, I'd suspect that anti-vax thinking is a little more common on the Left than on the Right, but it does seem more bipartisan than most subjects.
RigelDog,
I was thinking that it needn't be menstrual blood at all, or indeed human blood at all. Anyone with a friend at a slaughterhouse ought to be able to get as much cows' or pigs' blood as they like, and of course there's no way for us to tell them apart by eye.
Prior to this last year, everyone I know who is an anti-vaxxer has been on the Left. No exceptions at all. Of course, that might be skewed by the fact that I am surrounded by Left-wingers, whereas the Right-wingers in OR are all many hours away, if not actually in ID.
Balfegor, I am with you up to a point. Blacks have, heaven knows, lots of reasons to distrust Tha Gummint. But there is no explanation at all for (say) Kamala Harris' refusal to take any vaccine associated with Trump, and her swift reversal as soon as Trump was no longer President and therefore the vaccine was now a Biden triumph, not a Trump one. It's the same damn vaccine, damnit. There's no explanation except the obvious one: Trump Bad! Biden Good! We now have politics literally on that level.
We have a large and vocal part of our society/media that constantly goes on and on about the nasty things white people have done to black people over the years (many of which are true but most, not all, of which are old news). So are you surprised that some black people are hesitant to get the vaccine? Who do YOU hold responsible for your black friend who doesn't get the vaccine, and gets sick?
"You can’t look at it like that if you are a government responsible for 300 million lives." The government is not responsible for 300 million lives. That the bureaucrats in the health agencies think that is very much part of the problem of tyranny.
"How many people should die because hospitals are overflowing and they can’t get their non COVID treatments, for example?" Didn't happen anywhere in the US (have no clue about other countries). Even in LA a couple months ago when things hit the fan they weren't turning away patients for non-COVID treatments due to capacity issues. There was a ton of panic rpon in the media that it could/would happen, but those stories went away when it didn't happen. I can find a couple cases where an ambulance or two was diverted to a different hospital due to the intended hospital being maxed, but in no case was someone unable to receive care because the entire area system was overburdened. And no one died because of the capacity issue - although the lying media tried very hard to tie a couple deaths to COVID capacity issues. But real reporting showed COVID capacity wasn't the problem with those.
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