Althouse: "Back in the Jeep, struggling to navigate a road once so familiar but now shrouded by smoke-filled darkness, Chris almost ran over..."

September 13, 2020

"Back in the Jeep, struggling to navigate a road once so familiar but now shrouded by smoke-filled darkness, Chris almost ran over..."

"... what looked like a bikini-clad woman on the road. Once he was closer, he realized she was wearing underwear. Her hair was singed, her mouth looked almost black, and her bare feet were severely burned. He impatiently tried to help her into his car, explaining how he needed to find his wife and son, feeling like she was resisting. Finally, she spoke. 'I am your wife.'"

From "The desperate fight to save his family ends in tragedy" (The Oregonian).

63 comments:

rhhardin said...: The story is there for entertainment value. In a movie, it would probably be a flashback scene to account for agonizing hours of later mental suffering, in that genre.; 9/13/20, 5:35 AM
Browndog said...: Mariana Ruiz-Temple named new Oregon Fire Marshal after Jim Walker resigns

"Mariana has led with grace, transparency and courage," said Governor Kate Brown. "She embodies the experience Oregon needs to face this crisis, in this moment."

People still wonder how the idiots became in-charge.; 9/13/20, 6:32 AM
Big Mike said...: They’ve arrested a man for setting one of the Oregon wildfires. His nam is Michael Jarrod Bakkela and he appears to be incompletely sane but not a member of Antifa.

“Oregon Live reports that Bakkela is reportedly responsible for setting one of two major wildfires in the state, which has killed dozens and displaced hundreds.”

Apparently there are at least two major wildfires in Oregon that the state was slow to deal with, and I don’t know whether Bakkela set the one that killed this man’s son and mother-in-law.; 9/13/20, 6:42 AM
gilbar said...: it's NEAT, how ALL these fires started by roads; and were CLEARLY arson...
but, WE KNOW; that Antifa wasn't behind ANY of them; 'cause Antifa wouldn't hurt people; 9/13/20, 6:45 AM
Narayanan said...: And he would be member of Greenpeace or some such group now crusading for more extreme fire suppression.; 9/13/20, 6:55 AM
Tina Trent said...: Good dog.; 9/13/20, 6:58 AM
Kevin said...: First we saw mismanagement of the blue cities.

Now we’re seeing mismanagement of the blue forests.

How long until CNN labels the fires “mostly in non-populated areas”?; 9/13/20, 7:00 AM
Nichevo said...: rhhardin said...
The story is there for entertainment value.

And do you find it entertaining?; 9/13/20, 7:04 AM
Ann Althouse said...: Think of the 13-year-old boy who stayed with his incapacitated grandmother and died alongside her.; 9/13/20, 7:05 AM
Narayanan said...: If Trump is responsible for all COVID deaths who is responsible for Fire deaths?; 9/13/20, 7:14 AM
rhhardin said...: Think of the 13-year-old boy who stayed with his incapacitated grandmother and died alongside her.

The country is doomed if women have the vote. The story didn't appear on its own. Somebody wants you to click it. Is it impossible for women to be aware of this, is the question. "This story is there because it entertains people like me." Fill out an imaginary movie plot around it, if it helps to see this. Movies are entertainment. Spot the genre.

(Vicki) Hearne's Law: whenever there's a stink about something in the news, it's because come politician or charity wants a stink about it in the news.

Generalize a little from politician or charity.

7,000 Americans die on an average day, with nothing special going on. The job of the news is to find entertaining ones.

Ann doesn't want children in political stories but likes them in her entertainment.

I'm really insensitive to the mob reaction but it feels like the story is an unethical intrusion to me, for no purpose but to keep people from being bored. "Hey, here's a fun story."; 9/13/20, 7:19 AM
Wince said...: The Oregon National Guard is operating four UH-60 Black Hawk helicopters out of Madras to drop fire retardant. Six of the state's largest firefighting helicopters, the CH-47 Chinooks, are not available because they have been deployed to Afghanistan at the request of the Department of Defense to aid in military missions. The National Guard was activating three 125-soldier firefighting teams to be deployed as needed.

The Oregon National Guard is operating a total of seven helicopters supporting firefighting efforts. Six HH-60M Black Hawks, five outfitted with Bambi buckets to support water drops and one to support search and rescue operations. A UH-72 Lakota with infrared radar is being used to aid in fire mapping.; 9/13/20, 7:24 AM
gilbar said...: Big Mike said...
They’ve arrested a man for setting one of the Oregon wildfires. His nam is Michael Jarrod Bakkela

“Bakkela initially was lodged on a Probation Violation detainer on an original charge of Unlawful Possession of Methamphetamine, more than 2 ounces”

Sounds like a regular Oregon hippy to me; 9/13/20, 7:25 AM
Narayanan said...: THE ENCHANTED FOREST STORY
ABOUT THE CREATOR

Roger Tofte, born in 1930 in Chippewa Falls, Wisconsin, moved to Astoria, Oregon when he was 5 years old
-------------==============
Priorities or Hindsight 2020 >>> your thoughts please

they could have all left earlier when he went for the trailer ?!; 9/13/20, 7:31 AM
Biff said...: Browndog said..."Mariana Ruiz-Temple named new Oregon Fire Marshal after Jim Walker resigns"

More on the story: Oregon Marshal Jim Walker resigns after searching for missing people in Santiam Canyon on behalf of employee; 9/13/20, 7:34 AM
Tom T. said...: It sounds like the son concluded there was no way out and decided instead to return to his grandmother.; 9/13/20, 7:38 AM
Narayanan said...: what Chris really needed to have; 9/13/20, 7:42 AM
Dust Bunny Queen said...: I think the word that rhhardin is looking is titillating, not entertaining. He isn't wrong. The news focuses on the titillating, factitious, weird and entertaining.

We 'can't handle the truth'.....so we get dreck and sensationalism.; 9/13/20, 7:42 AM
Sebastian said...: How much higher taxes are people out in the woods paying for the enormously expensive rescue and fire-suppression efforts staged on their behalf, year after year after year?

"Think of the 13-year-old boy who stayed with his incapacitated grandmother and died alongside her."

I am. I'm thinking, why were they there? I'm thinking, did they follow the news? I'm thinking, what were their emergency plans?

And I'm thinking, how much longer will West Coasters put up with the kind of environmental governance they have?; 9/13/20, 7:50 AM
cacimbo said...: Horrible, horrible story. If I were the woman I would rather die. If she lives I imagine the physical pain of the burns combined with the guilt over her decisions will make her remaining years a misery.; 9/13/20, 7:53 AM
gilbar said...: Nichevo said...
rhhardin said... The story is there for entertainment value
And do you find it entertaining?

MUCH more entertaining, than some boring old story about an ambitious stranger dying in an avalanche; 9/13/20, 8:00 AM
Daniel Jackson said...: baruch atah adonai, dayan ha emet.

days of awe indeed. what incredible young man! mighty deeds in one so young. i, for one, bow my head in his honor.; 9/13/20, 8:01 AM
MartyH said...: As the father of a 16 year old young man who could I could see going back to try to save his grandmother, let me be the first to say: rhhardin, you're a real asshole.; 9/13/20, 8:01 AM
Temujin said...: It's a horrible story on it's own merits. Forget about which political side it serves- that's just nuts. Think about a 13 year old boy, with his dog, trying to find his way through that fiery hell. If you've never been close to a real wildfire, you don't know. There is no sense of any direction, no sense of a right or wrong way to go. He was 13. He went back to the only place he knew and died in the truck, with his grandmother, and his dog in his lap.

If you cannot see the pain of a human struggle in that, you're dead now.; 9/13/20, 8:09 AM
JML said...: Environmental groups routinely sue the Forest Service, BLM, State Forestry Agencies and other Government Agencies to stop prescribed burns and thinning operations designed to reduce/lessen wildfire events. Private landowners in forested areas also sue to block them, and will refuse to clear their land of undergrowth. I live near a National Forest that has not been properly cleared for at least 30 years. A few weeks ago, we had winds that reached 70 MPH. There are several homes in those areas, and few escape routes. If there is a fire, and the people don't get out early, they will pay with their lives. I was at a lake in S. CO. a week ago. One morning the smoke was very heavy. We had wifi service, so I checked to see if it was from the distant fires, or if one had started close by. If there was a new fire within 25 miles of us, I was going to leave. You just can't wait and you can't trust that a fire will be contained.

On another note, I was in the Forest Service as a Contracting Officer. The waste that goes into fighting fires is criminal - the logistical tail for the actual firefighter has grown to be enormously wasteful. No one dares touch that issue as they will flog you to death because you would be taking away over-time from the employees, spending money by hiring seasonal employees in support roles, and hiring retired employees to work as Administrative Designated support staff, local contractors, etc. I am so happy to be retired.; 9/13/20, 8:10 AM
Dust Bunny Queen said...: I meant salacious not whatever that other word was....thanks alot spell check and no coffee yet.

Nothing wrong with focus on heroic actions. Like Mr. Rogers Mom said. Watch for the helpers.

But most of media today is just infotainment without much actual info.

Infotainment as the means to mold opinion and not to present real actual hard fact.; 9/13/20, 8:35 AM
MartyH said...: In my movie, the thirteen year old is the protagonist.

As for rhhardin, he's running the emergency radio system. He's supposed to give updates to the local area on the fire-where it's heading, who needs to evacuate, who's been found safe, where the shelters are. All he can keep saying is, "This is what happens when you give women the vote."; 9/13/20, 8:41 AM
David Begley said...: Since liberals run the Western states and Libs have been running the National Parks and Forest Service for decades, I suspect forest mismanagement is at the core of the problem.; 9/13/20, 8:47 AM
Freder Frederson said...: “Bakkela initially was lodged on a Probation Violation detainer on an original charge of Unlawful Possession of Methamphetamine, more than 2 ounces”

Sounds like a regular Oregon hippy to me

Hippy? Meth is not the preferred drug of hippies. More likely rural redneck.; 9/13/20, 8:57 AM
Freder Frederson said...: Environmental groups routinely sue the Forest Service, BLM, State Forestry Agencies and other Government Agencies to stop prescribed burns and thinning operations designed to reduce/lessen wildfire events.

This is bullshit. What environmental groups sue to stop prescribed burns? Yes, they will object to logging operations disguised as "thinning", but to claim that environmental groups are against proper forest management is just a lie.

The problem is that we spend about a tenth of what we should on forest management, and a good chunk of that is federal, not state, land.; 9/13/20, 9:02 AM
Michael McNeil said...: Brought forward from another, dead thread. Not totally appropriate for this one, but it'll do….

Sez the NY Times:
Hundreds, if not thousands, of homes have been lost, most of them in Oregon…

If they're unsure as to whether it's hundreds or thousands of homes, then the following phrase — “most of them in Oregon” — cannot be true. Because (just as a single for instance), the huge fire in California's Santa Cruz County (70 miles south of San Francisco: the county, as it happens, I'm in the process of moving from, after more than 40 years), itself during the last two weeks of August burned more than 125 square miles — including more than 1,400 buildings, nearly 1,000 of which were residences.

While my partner's and my home (plus e.g. my ex's house also in the county) turned out to be not directly threatened by the conflagration, we all were forced to evacuate (only a week before our home was due to go on sale!).

There's no question that Antifa or BLM might have set this fire — because after 10 days or so of 100+ degree weather, it began with a bang with a 3 a.m. lightning storm. Literally a bang, since it started with a great blast of wind, which actually blew one of our windows (awaiting repair) out of its frame, which fell with a great crash onto the bathtub, necessitating its repair for the house's upcoming sale, and jerking my partner and me awake — only to be entertained by hours of lightning, thunder, and a considerable amount of rain (in August! remarkable for central Calif.).

The lightning started fires across a broad arc which proceeded to consolidate and burn across the western mountains of the county like nothing ever seen before there.

All three of us (my partner, me, and my ex) took refuge in Siskiyou County (the county, in the far north of California — straddling I-5 — that my partner and I are moving to) — all of us staying in the RV trailer that she and I had acquired to facilitate construction of our new home. It was tight — with my ex also living in the trailer with us for a week or so — let me tell you!

My partner together with my ex have now gone back to their respective homes in Santa Cruz County; I myself returned for a while. Our house there is now on the market and being shown.

Now, though, I'm back north in Siskiyou County — among other things, awaiting installation of our new well, as step 1 in our prospective home's construction project. (Since it's to be located in a forest, the house may well be built out of steel!)

Meanwhile, the nearby town of Happy Camp — pop. 1,190, with 525 households according to Wikipedia, some miles away on the Klamath River here in Siskiyou County — just the other day got burnt to a crisp by a sudden wildfire (which has now proceeded north to ravage Oregon). The town's residents, I'm sure, are not happy campers.

Such is life in California (and Oregon) these days.; 9/13/20, 9:19 AM
Kai Akker said...: All right, I'll ask it. Where was the husband (and father) all that time? He wasn't there when the wife was packing up. He was getting a trailer. He wasn't there by the time they went to bed. And he obviously wasn't there when they woke up either.; 9/13/20, 9:41 AM
Narayanan said...: @ JML said...
On another note, I was in the Forest Service as a Contracting Officer. ... I am so happy to be retired.
-------------=============
If Deplorable Burning Kansans have sense to build underground storm shelters why not wokiste LeftCoastists? what design modification needed for fire + wind vs wind alone? or they code restricted from doing so?; 9/13/20, 9:45 AM
Dear corrupt left, go F yourselves said...: "She had watched the wildfires come out of nowhere and spread swiftly. "

Who or what started these fires?

If Antifa Nazi arsonists did it, we will never know. News media will cover.; 9/13/20, 9:53 AM
Narayanan said...: God has cared for these trees, saved them from drought, disease, avalanches, and a thousand tempests and floods. But he cannot save them from fools.
John Muir
------------==============
Has he never seen or heard of wild fires? did they not burn in his time?; 9/13/20, 9:58 AM
Michael K said...: This is bullshit. What environmental groups sue to stop prescribed burns? Yes, they will object to logging operations disguised as "thinning", but to claim that environmental groups are against proper forest management is just a lie.

Forestry expert Freder is here to teach us about forest management. The privately owned forests by Weyerhauser are not on fire. The "thinning" efforts are routinely blocked which is why the fires are so fierce and hot. My son is a CalFire supervisor. I'm sure he would appreciate your help in figuring out what to do.

It is nice to have an expert on so many topics here. Thank you Freder.; 9/13/20, 10:34 AM
Old and slow said...: Meth is the drug that all hippies claim to detest... They lie. I used to be a meth head loser and I can tell you that all the hippies I knew asked for meth on the quiet every time I saw them. Anecdotal, but I aint the only one.; 9/13/20, 10:35 AM
Paco Wové said...: Fairly good article from last year's Sacramento Bee on the inadequacy of forest and fire management in the western U.S. tl;dr – "In California, the debate over prescribed burns is complicated by a deadly history with wildfires that have grown quickly out of control, the state’s stringent environmental regulations, fear of liability lawsuits and infringement on property rights, and the huge swaths of federal forestland with their own management rules and oversight." As a result, only a tiny fraction of the amount of land that should be burned to prevent fuel buildup is actually being burned. The situation is not identical in Oregon, but there are a lot of similarites.; 9/13/20, 10:37 AM
JML said...: FF, one story of many:

https://helenair.com/news/state-and-regional/lawsuit-halted-fire-mitigation-work-in-area-now-burning-near-lincoln/article_1645162d-56f1-5ae5-b118-44e4ed7fffb9.html

Narayanan: There is a good chance they would bake or suffocate in a shelter.; 9/13/20, 10:41 AM
Thistlerose said...: Why were the mother in law and 13 year old not taken out if the area when the father went to get the trailer. Very bad planning.; 9/13/20, 11:05 AM
Paul said...: I hear Pelosi got up at this G7 something (by remote) and talks 'climate change' cause of all these fires.

But folks, these fires are ONLY HAPPENING IN OREGON AND CALIFORNIA... no where else. It ain't 'climate change'.. it's BLM/ANTIFA arsonist. Same thing kind of happened in Australia. Arsonist.

It's mass murder by the far left.; 9/13/20, 11:05 AM
Michael K said...: Narayanan said...
God has cared for these trees, saved them from drought, disease, avalanches, and a thousand tempests and floods. But he cannot save them from fools.
John Muir
------------==============
Has he never seen or heard of wild fires? did they not burn in his time?

Muir was seeing the forests as they were after thousands of years of natural growth and the thousands of fires that had cleared the underbrush.; 9/13/20, 11:17 AM
Earnest Prole said...: let me be the first to say: rhhardin, you're a real asshole.

He seems unnerved by his own emotions — in a word, unmanly.; 9/13/20, 11:25 AM
BUMBLE BEE said...: I remember some years ago there was a article by a Homeland Security source about low exposure terrorism. Train derailments and forest fires were high damage, high cost and low detection means. Lightning strikes are recorded and power lines downed are likewise documentable. In a conversation with a firefighter years back, he described rescue of children from burning houses. In checking the bedrooms of the children the first check was under the bed. The next check was in the closet. It was where the children, dead or alive, were to be found.; 9/13/20, 11:30 AM
Fustigator said...: Jesus that story. Heartbreaking.

My take-aways:

Dad tried to do to much...wanted to save all them and many of their possessions by borrowing a trailer. Absolute tragedy because of that decision. Should have packed up the car with everyone at that time. I dont know how he will live with that one.

Mom....absolute badass with an incredible will to live. All the others died. I am guessing she was with them and they succumbed and she walked out and survived (at least for now).

Son and dog...also badasses and did what they could to help family members.

Just awful and gut wrenching to read this and think about what they went through.; 9/13/20, 11:34 AM
Aggie said...: You know who prefers meth? Antifa militant extremists, who have a great love of mischief and just love to see things burn. What percentage of the black bloc has a stream of chemicals coursing through their veins on riot nights, do ya think? Does anyone think they would hesitate to bring the show out of the cities? Does anyone think doing something really big, and striking at a vulnerability is not in their plans?

I would imagine that law enforcement is carefully parsing their words when they say it can't be Antifa doing this. I can't say that I blame them. Because they don't want the other 99.9% of the country's population who still believe in a moral basis for the law, hunting every last one of them down and stringing them up - like they understandably might do.

If there are Antifa ties that come to light, this indisputably makes them a terrorist organization that has murder as its natural purpose. DOJ needs to pick up the pace.; 9/13/20, 11:45 AM
Marc in Eugene said...: I read the chief fire marshal resignation story in the Oregonian earlier this morning and there was nothing in it about his searching in the night for someone etc, although all that good stuff about how great the new (Latina) chief is was. I wonder if the O. was intentionally 'managing' the news or if they genuinely lacked the information that's in the Statesman-Journal.

Had forgotten all about the Statesman-Journal, to tell the truth.; 9/13/20, 12:04 PM
Jim at said...: but to claim that environmental groups are against proper forest management is just a lie.

Yes. We folks on the west coast need to pay attention to what the asshole from Louisiana knows about environmental groups and their history out here.; 9/13/20, 1:53 PM
Yancey Ward said...: Rhhardin is an asshole, Marty, but if he didn't exist on this blog, important perspectives would never get written here. This is why I pretty much never criticize what he does write- his balls are bigger than mine and made of actual brass.; 9/13/20, 2:13 PM
Yancey Ward said...: My takeaway from the article is similar to Fustigator's- the father spent far too much time trying to save things rather than his family. It is an understandable mistake, but a tragic one that he will, no doubt, spend the rest of his life regretting.; 9/13/20, 2:22 PM
I Have Misplaced My Pants said...: It’s not really my business what happened to that family, but since we are discussing it: I don’t really understand the timeline or why the family was left alone by the dad. I’m not judging because I wasn’t there making desperate decisions, but, there is zero chance Mr. Pants would leave me and our kids and an invalid mother in-law alone in a situation like that. That poor man has to live with that the rest of his life.

And Hardin is terribly exasperating but I see his point in this. People die all the time. I know two families who have lost teenagers to cancer but that’s not dramatic. Another family’s tragedy is usually entertainment if it’s in the news for no reason other than to make you go “oh what a shame.”; 9/13/20, 3:04 PM
wildswan said...: RH Hardin
One way you are wrong is in thinking that a story like that is not a way to get action. The story distinctly says (to me) that fires are moving faster than many of those who live in the forests realize, and that the people who are dying have (or had) real lives) - they were normal, had people and animals and a place they loved. Something should be done. Something is wrong in the forests. You, RH Hardin, might never tell a story about real people you knew to make a point but many people do just that. The fact that this mode is being exploited in critical race narratives which begin with a little fable about "a personal experience which led me to..." etc, merely shows that one should consider the source. I'm going on like this because in my opinion, Rh Hardin, you've moved from "tedious" to "quite horrible" in your comments on this story. You aren't quite as bad as you are being today. As a woman I know this sort of tipover into a ghastly parody of oneself happens to people. And I've thought of some other condescending remarks. But maybe this - you won't be any good to your country if you don't get a grip.; 9/13/20, 3:27 PM
James K said...: Terrible writing. A single-sentence paragraph: "Wyatt had been found." Huh? Didn't the lead-in say he died? If you missed that lead-in, it would be hard to tell whether Wyatt was found dead or alive.

No, Wyatt had not been found. His body was found.; 9/13/20, 3:31 PM
Rosalyn C. said...: I pity the husband and father the most. He made a tragically stupid mistake. The article ends with him blaming the police at the check point, what if he had been about to get through sooner, etc. Reminds me of the family whose grandfather dropped their infant off the side of the ship and blamed/sued the cruise line. Eventually the grandfather plead guilty.

Locally (Cal Fire) had guidelines for evacuation preparation, I can't find it right now otherwise I'd link. They had a chart, if you this amount of time you can organize certain items, etc., this amount of time just get out. I'm sorry that the guy didn't take his family out when he went for the trailer. At least he was able to save his wife.

What can you say about the son? I guess he decided to ignore his mother's orders about leaving and went back. Have to give him credit for guts.; 9/13/20, 3:40 PM
Michael K said...: <a href="https://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2020/09/fire-fanaticism.php'> Here is a bit of real information for the New Orleans fire expert.</a>

<i>The real reason for the large fires is the overloading of our western forests over the last several decades, which can be laid at the feet of excessive and misguided fire suppression starting almost a century ago, and environmentalist opposition to any pro-active forest management on public lands. Environmentalists without fail run to the courthouse to block every Forest Service forest thinning plans, delaying and sometime blocking sensible forest management.</i>

The prospect of annual massive fires is now upon us, or at least for the blue states.

Good luck !; 9/13/20, 5:39 PM
Drago said...: Field Marshall and Bundy/McCloskey Case Liar Freder: "This is bullshit. What environmental groups sue to stop prescribed burns? Yes, they will object to logging operations disguised as "thinning", but to claim that environmental groups are against proper forest management is just a lie."

You are lying. Again.

And not well I might add.

Hey dummy, what do you do with the logs that you are getting rid of to thin the forest as well as vegetation control?

Huh?

Who is best equipped to deal with that? Spoiler: it ain't you and your antifa soyboys.

Morons like Freder have been brainwashed to believe that just because someone can get into a forest and thin it out and get it cleaned up and can possibly make a buck on the side while decreasing the likelihood of large scale forest fires which threaten humans, it should be avoided at all costs.

Well we are seeing the costs now, aren't we?

Congratulations Field Marshall. You and your marxist lefty pals are the authors of all that you see in the west. There's not a republican anywhere in sight in those states.

Its. All. You.; 9/13/20, 9:35 PM
Mike (MJB Wolf) said...: What a story. That could have been us. Last Halloween my wife and I both awoke at 2 a.m. smelling smoke. By 2:15 we had the cats that we could corral, the dog, the 80-year neighbor and our grandson loaded and evacuated. The mountain side 200 yards away burned, but only two houses on our block burned that night. San Bernardino Fire and the Forestry Dept dud an awesome job saving the neighborhood.; 9/13/20, 9:42 PM
Birches said...: The kid and the dog never left the car. If it was on fire, they never would have been able to get back in.; 9/14/20, 7:46 AM
Birches said...: It's a good reminder to play things safe and leave together.; 9/14/20, 7:46 AM
Nichevo said...: Many feelings. On the logical side of the spectrum, it's a pity the boy couldn't operate the car and drive them to safety. But good for him not leaving grandma and Rover. What were the husband and wife thinking?; 9/14/20, 9:12 AM
JAORE said...: Tragic is the correct term.

I pray the husband and wife can forgive themselves for all the second guessing inherent of real or imagined mistakes in such a time.; 9/14/20, 10:16 AM
PM said...: Chilling O Henry ending.; 9/14/20, 10:52 AM
wishfulthinking said...: I have read that the fire picked up strength much faster than the family and authorities expected. Also, that the heat may have melted the car tires so they had no way to get out at that point.

It is a tragedy on all counts, but I think it's made worse because so many of us think that these fires can either be prevented or reduced in their intensity with proper forest management.

My heart aches for this family and all others affected by the fires in Cali and Oregon.; 9/14/20, 4:08 PM