September 25, 2020

"A police tactic meant to keep officers safer — raiding homes late at night, giving occupants little or no warning — can conflict with 'castle doctrine' laws meant to keep homeowners safe by giving them leeway to use deadly force against intruders."

"In this case, Taylor’s boyfriend saw the police and thought they were intruders. He says he fired in self-defense. The police fired back, in self-defense against his self-defense. The result, as in other cases, was a tragedy that the law didn’t prevent and won’t punish.... Even after they fired back — missing Walker but striking Taylor, who was standing nearby — Walker said he did not know they were the police. 'I don’t know what is happening,' Walker said in a call he made to 911. 'Somebody kicked in the door and shot my girlfriend.'.... Under Kentucky’s version of the castle doctrine... residents are allowed to use defensive force against someone 'forcibly entering' a dwelling...."

From "A woman killed. An officer shot. And no one legally responsible" by David Fahrenthold (WaPo).

The method of entering a home at night is presented as necessary to prevent people with drugs from destroying the evidence. From the comments at WaPo: "Rabid, over-enthusiastic drug enforcement. People die over nothing. Legalize and then focus on treatment."

151 comments:

Sebastian said...

"saw the police and thought they were intruders"

If he saw them, did he not see they were police?

They apparently announced their presence and banged hard. Why would he consider them "intruders"?

I call BS.

zipity said...


Problem is, witnesses have state that the police DID identify themselves. Multiple times.

John Lynch said...

I fail to see how it makes the officers safer. They could do it when no one is home.

They could arrest the occupants when they are outside, too.

The real reason is seizing evidence, because of strange case law that incentivizes breaking into domiciles while the occupants are present.

Mark O said...

Were the words "I think those are intruders," the last thing he said? I heard it was, "The Supreme Court vacancy should be filled by Joe Biden."

wendybar said...

Don't do the crime, and you won't have to worry about this. Breanna Taylor was no innocent waif. She was involved with a drug dealer.

Todd said...

Sorry but if you are the police, be the police. End no-knock warrants. The police get all swat-ed up, crash into the house in the middle of the night, and people die. Too often innocent people. Wrong house, wrong address, wrong snitch, etc.

I am also tired of reading/seeing a dozen police rush suspects as they leave their homes like they are storming the beach at Normandy. If "the perp" is a wanted serial killer, OK but it seems like the police look for any excuse to "suit up" and crash the door.

Good cops get all my respect, they do a difficult job. All cops do that job voluntarily. Do it true and honest or don't do it at all.

Also we must end qualified immunity for everyone in law enforcement and government.

buwaya said...

Rival drug dealers can also identify themselves as police.

In any case it does not seem proper to run such risks to the public, bystanders and innocents merely to collect evidence of petty drug dealing.

TreeJoe said...

I've listened to the officer's version of the story. I've listened to the officially presented version of the story. And I look at the evidence of what happened that night.

The official version of the story, with a supposedly independent third party witness, was that the police had a warrant, knocked, announced themselves as police, no one answered, they knocked down the door and both residents were standing in the hallway with the man standing "in a shooting stance" and he fired at the officers. At which time one of was shot in the leg and 2-3 returned fire, killing Breonna.

My problem with this story is that by all accounts the residents WERE LAW ABIDING in every aspect. She may have had an ex that was involved in drug dealing, but even today that's used as a slur against her because there was no actual evidence she remained involved with him in any way. Nor even that it was extremely recent.

Those law abiding residents weren't standing in the hallway with a gun for no reason. If they heard police, why would they be prepared to shoot AS LAW ABIDING RESIDENTS. They had zero incentive. Further, in the heat of the moment not only did the resident fire at someone who kicked down his door he called 911 for help and said "somebody kicked down my door and shot my girlfriend." Now you could argue he fired first, ok, but if they had announced themselves as police TO THE RESIDENT why would he be saying "Somebody"....no, he didn't know who was in his apartment shooting.

Meanwhile the police initially even said they were revising policy on no-knock raids. Now they say an independent witness said they did knock and announce themselves. Further, the police did in fact shoot 32 rounds into a dark apartment complex after being fired on once. They didn't even hit the person who fired the gun and instead killed a by-all-appearances innocent bystander.

I understand the police were in a difficult position. But frankly, considering errant bullets were into neighboring apartments, they are extremely lucky the death toll wasn't higher.

This type of qualified immunity for killing an innocent bystander during official conduct of their duties is over the top in this case. EVERY SINGLE OTHER "Benjamin Crump" case of the last 6 years has basically been refuted top to bottom. This one - Breonna Taylor - is one in which even with the official evidence it looks to me like the police created a situation where someone was likely to be gravely injured and multiple bystanders were likely to get hurt.

Put another way: Their BEST CASE scenario was going to be knocking down someone's door in the middle of the night and arresting two innocent people. Probably putting them through hell, maybe resulting in one or both of them losing their jobs or spending money on legal fees they may not have been able to afford.

And their worst case scenario was, as seen here, a helluva lot worse.

Unknown said...

There is no doubt that police use excessive force in many cases. Especially when cases do not warrant it. A guns drawn raid of Roger Stone comes to mind, a guns drawn raid of white collar instances.

Body cams being turned off in this case seems fishy for surer. And if there are SO LITTLE drugs in the house that they can be easily disposed of in less than a minute, I would have to say there is some questionable warrants being issued and District Attorneys being very over-zealous.

JAORE said...

I am reading reports HE fired first. Is there NOTHING about this killer cops hunt black folk story that was true?

Hands up, don't shoot. A lie.

Zimmerman stalked and attacked Travon. A lie.

And more and more lies leading to riots and destruction. Ask yourself why.

Yet cites burn, lives lost. Cops assassinated.

But, but, but [after poling shows a problem] Biden says, Bad rioters, bad.

Well then, all is forgiven. Nope, nope, nope.

For years I have said voting a straight party ticket is a fools game.

No more. I will never vote for a D candidate beyond the local level until someone high up clearly, forcefully denounces this as madness and says the D party is partially at fault.

John Lynch said...

Sebastian-

They were plainclothes.

wild chicken said...

"Legalize them"! What's "them"? All drugs? It could be meth, pot, fent, anything?
Yee-haw!

I've been hearing this facile "solution" for years and I'm still waiting. I mean, I could get behind it.

Come on, man!

Drago said...

We now know Taylor's home was being used as a central clearinghouse (stash house) for drugs and drug money being distributed to mulitiple "trap houses" and that the police have the surveillance video proof of that.

We now know Taylor herself had also been under surveillance and we know that police have audio records of her speaking with others about the trap houses, so Taylor was in on it all from the beginning.

We now know the police, though they had a "no knock" warrant issued, did in fact knock and announce themselves prior to entry.

We now know Taylor's boyfriend/ex-boyfriend, whatever, was the first to fire and fired at the police.

We now know Taylor herself was standing directly behind her boyfriend when police returned fire at which point she was hit.

Basically, every single thing everyone thought they knew about this case 2 weeks ago has been a complete lie. A knowing and massive lie.

If you want to know how much of a lie it all was, lets just say it reached Freder/steve uhr/LLR-lefty C**** levels of lying, which, as everyone knows is the benchmark.

John Lynch said...

Zipity-

Actual burglars can do the same thing. They weren't uniformed.

Wince said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Unknown said...

I see why the officers would want to raid the house when the occupants are home, to catch them with the goods. I expect that many cases would be thrown out if they were not home at the time. If you are on a jury would you be as confident of laying down a 10-20 year sentence when the person wasn't home, denies it is their drugs and you have to completely believe the police on this.

A much weaker case.

That being said, if the policy is one-knock, one second, bang the door, that is asking for this kind of stuff to happen. It should be changed as the amount of drugs requiring this type of force should be a pretty large amount.

Michael K said...

Drug legalization is a reasonable approach to certain drugs, like heroin. The trouble is that there are lots of "designer drugs" on the street with bizarre behavior resulting. George Floyd had many of them in his system. Cocaine make people hyperactive and paranoid, a bad combination. I wish it was that simple.

The Cracker Emcee Refulgent said...

I don’t know the details of what happened because, frankly, the reaction to it has left me with disgusted indifference to what may have triggered that reaction. However, yeah, what’s so important about a handful of crack vials (or whatever it was) that they require flattened doors and guns blazing in the middle of the night? It simply makes no sense. And we’ve known that since at least the 1920’s. It isn’t hard to see how some Black folks might think they’ve been singled out for a particular kind of institutionalized torment.

Conservatives know that the bureaucracy is moribund, unimaginative, self-interested, and reflexively resistant to change. Well, the police are part of the bureaucracy and it’s no surprise that their leadership isn’t very swift. I’m a huge supporter of the man and woman in blue but some of the tasks they’re set to are just foolish.

wild chicken said...

Oops, it was just "legalize." I inferred "them."

"Legalize" is even broader.

I can see that as a campaign slogan:

"Legalize!" Legalize everything, then nothing is illegal!

Lmao

Mid-Life Lawyer said...

They've shot Florence Nightingale with no warning and for no reason! Most of them were white!!

Steven said...

I'm surprised this sort of thing doesn't happen more often. It doesn't even matter that they were "identifying themselves as police". If someone is knocking my door down in the middle of the night and says they're the police, I'd just assume they were lying.

Gusty Winds said...

It matters what is being sold by the dealer. Nobody cares about pot. But heroine, crack, and pills sold basically via drug dealing Uber Eats in Milwaukee are another thing. There are dozens driving around Milwaukee all day and night delivering to homes, street corner rendezvous….etc. I never really knew its extent until I got divorced and started dating. It’s been and education. Heroin addicts may be able to quite via methadone, but they are addicts forever.

Fernandinande said...

Baby in Coma After Police 'Grenade' Dropped in Crib During Drug Raid

Wince said...

While the castle doctrine can justify use of deadly force upon an intruder, I do not see why that should prevent a separate charge of using a weapon in the furtherance of a felony (e.g., the drug charge, if it turns-out the warrant is justified), including the felony murder rule. Basically a statutory rule you loose the castle doctrine defense if you are engaged in criminal activity.

That said, these raids are overused and should be subject to greater scrutiny by the judges issuing the warrants as to necessity.

mockturtle said...

After watching a few SWAT Team episodes this occurred to me, as well. Barging unannounced into someone's house when they and their family are asleep is just asking for a violent response. And the SWAT members in these episodes [all of whom happened to be black, as were the residents] seemed to be on a power trip, enjoying this kind of raid.

While I support the police, I have seen evidence of misuse of power. An example occurred in a rural area where we used to live. And elderly woman living alone was rudely awakened by a SWAT team in the middle of the night. Her house was trashed and she was traumatized as they searched for drugs. Turns out they had the wrong address!

Oso Negro said...

@Sebastian, perhaps you wake up in the middle of the night fully cognizant of your surroundings and the identity of the strangers at your door or entering your home, but I sure cannot say the same of myself.

Greg The Class Traitor said...

I don't use drugs. But I'd rather see the "drug war" completely end than see this kind of garbage continue.

"They're going to pour the drugs down the toilet if we give them warning!"

I don't care. If you kick in the door of my house in the middle of the night I'm going to shoot you. I don't care what you're screaming.

And, in that case, you, the kicker, deserve to die.

No "no-knock" warrants / raids / whatever. If that means we can't enforce drug laws, then dump the drug laws.

No more of this

West Texas Intermediate Crude said...

They had me convinced that this case was the outlier, the one where the deceased was truly a victim of police brutality. I heard that Breonna was shot in her bed, was an EMT studying to be a nurse, and was killed by blue meanies in a hail of bullets.
Turns out that she was an active participant in her ex's drug trade, that her apartment was being used for drug exchange and storage, that she was by the side of current boyfriend who was shooting at LEOs who had identified themselves and satisfied every other requirement of current law to carry out their assigned duties.
Another one bites the dust...

Oso Negro said...

@John Lynch - yes, you are right. They could do it when no one is home, or even cut off the water before knocking, thus limiting disposal to a single flush.

Big Mike said...

I have been opposed to no-knock warrants since they were originally proposed. Breonna Taylor is only the latest innocent victim — the most infamous was Bounkham Phonesavanh, in 2014 he was just 19 months old when a SWAT team tossed a flash-bang grenade into his crib while he and his family were sleeping. The child was badly burned and no drugs were found.

Lucid-Ideas said...

Why cant anyone get the details of the Taylor case correct?

-Not a No-Knock Warrant

-Not the Wrong House

-The boyfriend who fired first was not the drug dealer

-The police intel thought she was home alone and they were there to obtain drugs, computers, etc as evidence.

- Drugs were supposedly being sent to the house by the ex boyfriend

- The police knocked very loudly

- The new not-criminal boyfriend assumed it was the drug dealer ex-boyfriend

- He supposedly yelled for the knockers to identify and no response was heard
he fired a shot supposedly as a warning not toward people

- The police have testified that THEY DID announce their presence

- Two of the cops entered while shooting hitting the boyfriend and killing Taylor, this supposedly follows police protocol for this situation as they most likely assumed the one shooting was the criminal they were going after.

- One cop stayed outside and fired blindly into the house against protocol, he was the one charged.

This is getting fucking infuriating. BREONA TAYLOR WAS ON THE FUCKING WARRANT AS AN ACCOMPLISS!!!!!!

frenchy said...

So what's race got to do with it?

Big Mike said...

@zipity, even if the police did identify themselves, you’re relying on someone to emerge from deep, REM sleep and process anything beyond “someone is kicking down my doors.” Humans don’t work that way.

rcocean said...

Why not go even further. Lets get rid of crimes. Then we won't need to arrest anyone or have the police. Problem solved.

stevew said...

The argument in favor of police late night no knock raids is nonsensical. They say they do the raids this way to protect the officers, and to prevent the destruction of drug trafficking evidence. Yet we know that the targets of raids are often expected to be armed and dangerous. They operate outside the law and so have demonstrated their willingness to take risks and are unlikely to surrender quietly.

Eliminate these types of raids, save innocent lives. If some drug traffickers escape the grasp of police as a result then the police just have to improve their approach and technique.

rcocean said...

Why not go even further. Lets get rid of crimes. Then we won't need to arrest anyone or have the police. Problem solved.

mockturtle said...

Greg the Class Traitor asserts: I don't use drugs. But I'd rather see the "drug war" completely end than see this kind of garbage continue.

Me too! A total waste of time, money and manpower in addition to the risk of collateral damage.

Big Mike said...

@Althouse, John Lynch is right and reporter David Fahrenthold is mistaken. The original rationale for no-knock raids was that people possessing a sufficiently small quantity of drugs could flush them down the toilet. We’re not talking big-time dealers here. You aren’t flushing a big bale of marijuana down a toilet. Back in the earliest days it was, I think, recognized that the LEOs were at greater risk from no-knock raids, not lesser risk.

Fernandinande said...

And the SWAT members in these episodes [all of whom happened to be black, as were the residents] seemed to be on a power trip, enjoying this kind of raid.

They're functional psychopaths.

Francisco D said...

Lots of misinformation on this case.

There were warrants issued for several residences that surveillance had determined to be involved in drug distribution. The cops had enough information to get a No-Knock exemption from a judge. However, they did not exercise that exception in the Taylor raid. They did in the other raids and there were no injury incidents.

I think the cops did a poor job in the Taylor raid. They did not secure evidence and one of them (the one indicted) fired wildly and put others at risk. However, Breanna Taylor and her BF are responsible for her death, not the cops.

SensibleCitizen said...

As a resident of Louisville, I can say that the press has oversimplified the Breonna Taylor warrant and subsequent tragedy.

What is lost in the reporting is the root cause of the tragedy: If you make the decision to buy a gun to defend yourself, you have a responsibility to know how to use the gun safely.

First rule of defending yourself from a home invasion is to NOT move toward the invader. A bedroom, behind the bed is your best defensive position, call 911 and tell them the location of your bedroom in the house, and aim your weapon at the bedroom door with the lights on. If the police enter your home, put the gun down. You have to remain calm so that you don't accidentally shoot a friend, family or the police. You should never fire at anyone in the dark unless you are in imminent and certain danger.

Not easy to do, which is why most people are better off without firearms in their home for personal protection.

Fernandinande said...

Breanna Taylor was no innocent waif.

My favorite part of her story was the dead guy in her rental car, four years ago.

rcocean said...

Taylor was shot because her boyfriend picked up a gun and shot at the police. Sorry, she got killed, but the Police have to shoot back when fired upon. Why is CNN and the MSM lying about this? Why is Lebron James lying about this, and supporting BLM riots? Why are celebrities and the MSM encouraging black people to take "Vengeance" on the police? And why are average people OK with this?

Dust Bunny Queen said...

Blogger Greg The Class Traitor said... .... I don't care. If you kick in the door of my house in the middle of the night I'm going to shoot you. I don't care what you're screaming.

This....exactly THIS. I don't know who you are. I don't know if you are the police even if you scream it out loud. You could be anyone.

You don't have time to reason out all of the possible scenarios when people are breaking into your house suddenly and VIOLENTLY. The gut adrenaline reaction is to protect yourself, your family and...it seems anymore...your dog from getting killed.

No Knock Raids should be abolished.

phwest said...

I can see Walker being confused easily enough. Imagine this situation - you're up late (12:40 I believe) watching TV in bed with your girlfriend. Someone yells something at your front door that doesn't register (you certainly weren't expecting it or listening for it) and then starts bashing down the door. You know your girlfriend has a dangerous ex. I could see thinking it was him under the circumstances.

The problem with this kind of raid is that the cops want it to be fast and disorienting, because they don't want the suspects to react quickly enough to flush the evidence down the drain. That's not going to make the situation worse if you are breaking in on actual drug dealers, as I think its a pretty safe assumption that their minds would leap to "uh, oh, cops" in that situation. But for someone who has no particular reason to expect police to be breaking down their door late at night that's not the case. Why assume that Walker heard the cops announce themselves and understood what was going on? I'd also note this is why I don't consider the fact that most of the other residents in the complex didn't hear the cops announce themselves proof of anything either.

This kind of thing happens sooner or later if you do enough of these raids. At least the cops were at the right house this time. Anyone who supports these enforcement actions needs to accept that fact and stop trying to rationalize away individual cases by contesting particulars. This is also why these particular cops shouldn't be charged with murder either - they don't set the policy, they just drew the short straw and had someone shoot at them while they were doing something they were authorized to do. And that is also why the civil verdict was just - Taylor's family bore the cost of a city policy, and deserve to be compensated for their loss by the city.

Achilles said...

Sebastian said...

"saw the police and thought they were intruders"

If he saw them, did he not see they were police?

They apparently announced their presence and banged hard. Why would he consider them "intruders"?

I call BS.


Drug raids need to end.


If you wake me up at night yelling and banging on my door, then break into my house in plain clothes with guns drawn, I am not sure if I would take the time to listen to your yelling.

Breonna was not innocent either. She was part of a drug ring that distributed drugs to kids.

But these people need to be arrested outside their house. The house can be searched later. There is no reason for late night raids.

stlcdr said...

Blogger Lucid-Ideas said...
...

9/25/20, 9:32 AM


That is what the particulars of the event as I understand them, at this point. (I suspect it will not change much going forward, and is obviously radically different than what the media is portraying the situation).

The first thing that comes to mind is if someone is about to break down my front door in the middle of the night: it doesn't matter what that person or persons say, they are comitting a crime with an expected intent to harm and I am rightly in fear for my life.

Saying 'police' is not limited to the police.


Unknown said...

TreeJoe: My 23 year old son and I got into a loud argument last night where he is ABSOLUTELY convinced of a bunch of BS that concludes with 'she was murdered.' Fact is the warrant was issued to search her apartment based on evidence that she was involved in the drug business, and they were looking for drugs and money for prosecution (or, I suppose, developing her as a CI). She was considered a 'soft' target, so the police knocked and announced themselves. They did not know the drug dealer was there or it probably would have gone differently. In fact, if the drug dealer had not been there she probably would have opened the door and lived.

Big Mike said...

@Lucid-Ideas, besides your comment is the information you presented summarized anywhere you could link to? Everything I read about the Breonna Taylor case claimed it was a no-knock raid.

MD Greene said...

If police want to search a house or person for drugs, why not position cops outside the person's house, overnight if necessary, wait for him or her or them to come out the door, present a search warrant and THEN go inside?

We have creeps selling deadly drugs, and if you have known someone who has overdosed and died you probably agree with me that those creeps should be prosecuted. But arresting them is not worth putting lives at risk.

Big Mike said...

No more. I will never vote for a D candidate beyond the local level ...

@JAORE, I don’t even vote (D) at the local level. The Democrats won’t change until the party as a whole is punished. Not just punished — thrashed.

eric said...

I love how everyone is picking this apart in a reasonable fashion and discussing differences of opinion as if it matters.

We have BLM and AntiFa burning down our neighborhoods, looting our stores and assaulting and even killing people because of "racist" cops "murdering" people.

Hello! NONE OF THAT IS TRUE!

It's like yall are standing outside the house while it's burning down and discussing what's coming on netflix later tonight.

We cannot discuss any sort of reform under these conditions and all you idiots wanting to do so are providing cover to the terrorists.

DanTheMan said...

I think the premise is wrong. Night raids are not "safer", not for the police, and not for the suspects.
In my former career, I participated in a number of search warrant services, and our preference was always daylight, and uniformed officers leading, with detectives entering only after the scene was secure.
Busting the door down was always a last resort, but sometimes the reality is you can't put 6 guys on a house and wait two days for the suspects to come outside. It's not like they get up every morning and go to work like regular folks.
Also from my experience, druggies are much more likely to be up and functioning at 3AM than they are at 8AM.
If you want to catch them sleeping, generally you have until early afternoon!

Nonapod said...

So what's race got to do with it?

Technically nothing. Obvously if the victim was white it wouldn't rate as a national story. But because of the times we're living in, a spotlight has been shined (shone?) on this particular case and highlighted a problem with police raids in the middle of the night, which may ultimately prove to be a good thing.

Legalizing drugs in general may ameliorate some of this. But ultimately as long as there is a need for police raids (which even if drugs were legalized there still would be for things like sex trafficking and domestic terrorism and the like) we still would have to deal with the underlying issue.

Bill, Republic of Texas said...

This is why I'm pissed off at BLM and Antifa. Here is a great case talking about the dangerous of over zealous police actions. We really need police reform in this country. But by their actions they polarize the situation. They clearly have no interest in reform and they are only interested in "the worse, the better" revolution activity.

This was a "no knock" late night warrant. What happened to the rule of warrants being served during daytime and must knock and announce? Supposedly (and I don't believe it's true) the police did announce. Then why get a no knock warrant? That tells me the police lied about the need for a no knock warrant or they lied about announcing themselves.

I place the blame for Taylor's killing squarely on the police, prosecutor and judge.

SensibleCitizen said...

No knock warrants greatly reduce the risk of a gunfight. On the morning of the Breonna Taylor tragedy, six dangerous felons were arrested without a single gunshot on no-knock warrants. The one warrant that was executed with the police knocking ended in a death.

That seems to be lost on the press. Had the police not knocked, Breonna would likely still be alive.

Another point lost on the press: If the cops had been rogue racists, they would have simply shot and killed Kenneth Walker, who was obviously armed, and who had already shot one of them. Had they done that, this incident would have been a non-issue. The cops did the right thing and have paid a heavy price.

h said...

The WaPo article actually clarifies a few things for me. The warrant itself was a "no knock" warrant (the article shows the pdf of the warrant with those words). But (there is a little dispute about this) the police did knock and announce themselves as "police" as they entered the house (not waiting at the door for it to be opened to them). (The little dispute is the police claim they knocked and announced; one neighbor supports that claim; other neighbors did not hear it; Taylor's surviving boyfriend (who shot at the entering police, hitting one and seriously wounding) claims to have not heard any announcement, and (I think) claims to believe that the door was being breached by the former drug-dealing boyfriend, looking for Breonna, or drugs, or money.

SensibleCitizen said...

The reason police serve multiple warrants simultaneously, instead of picking up people on the street, is it eliminates the ability for criminal networks to communicate and plan an ambush on the police, or to hide or destroy evidence.

In the Taylor case, the police were arresting her as a known associate because her life was in danger. She knew enough to be a threat to the criminal network and it was not safe for her to be home after raiding the trap houses. She was the most likely of the group to be an informant, so she was in serious danger.

Todd said...

Lucid-Ideas said...

This is getting fucking infuriating. BREONA TAYLOR WAS ON THE FUCKING WARRANT AS AN ACCOMPLISS!!!!!!

9/25/20, 9:32 AM


Fine. Why can't they grab her as she is walking OUT the door? Why do they have to "bust in"? By all accounts she was not a "gun slinger".

At a minimum, if every one of the Police body cameras with audio and video is not fully, 100% available, they are at fault. Those cameras are for EVERYONE's protection. If it isn't available the assumption is because the Police have something to hide. In that case, they are at fault.

AZ Bob said...

Legal experts on Thursday said the Taylor case reveals an unresolved conflict in the law.... There’s a gunfight, but no one is criminally responsible,” said Michael Mannheimer, a law professor at Northern Kentucky University. “As unfortunate and as strange as that sounds. --David A. Fahrenthold, WaPo

The WaPo writer assumes that someone must be held criminally accountable for what happened. This is false and who are these so called legal experts anyway.

The legal standard of proof beyond a reasonable doubt and the presumption of innocence benefits all criminal defendants. So, both the home occupant and the police officer are entitled to it.

Let's say a police officer was driving down the street and saw two men fighting. He arrests both of them under the principle of "someone needs to be held accountable."

Will the jury be able to decide who was the aggressor and who was entitled to self-defense when neither defendant is required to testify. What happens? They both will be acquitted.

I doubt the law professor from Northern Kentucky University would really find the protections afforded criminal defendants to be unfortunate and strange.

Kate said...

Seems like a lot for society to risk in order to prosecute drug crimes. We've tried illegal for a long time. It's clusterage.

Todd said...

eric said...

We cannot discuss any sort of reform under these conditions and all you idiots wanting to do so are providing cover to the terrorists.

9/25/20, 10:11 AM


Nice try but no.

I don't want to have to worry that some Police are going to kick down my door in the middle of the night due to bad penmanship, bad snitch, or bad SWAT by some online nut-job. You kick in my door at night, there WILL be gun fire. One of mine getting shot or killed because the cops "have a right to shoot back" when they did not EVER need to bust in ANY door is murder under color of law. THAT has to stop. We should NOT let D city antifa/BLM distract us from what is right and what is wrong. They are wrong. No knock warrants are also wrong.

Sebastian said...

Blogger Achilles said...
Drug raids need to end.

I called BS only on the narrative, not to defend raids as such.

Others say, anyone can call themselves police and barge in. Fair point. How often does that happen? How many gang shootings or home killings involved false announcements, of the sort that would put criminals like Walker on edge?

Levi Starks said...

You don’t need to “legalize” anything.
Because “legalize” is code speak for figure out how to collect taxes for something we’ve decided to allow you to do even though we know it’s bad for you.
Carefully examine many of the police involved deaths of black men in recent years. Look at how often it involved tobacco and taxes.
Let’s start with George Floyd, all he wanted was a pack of smokes, which in a tax free world would have been about a buck.
And how about that black man in Chicago who was killed while trying to earn a living selling cigarettes individually?
And Michael Brown wanting his smokes here in St. Louis.
It’s not the police that are killing black men, it’s taxes.

mockturtle said...

The point that city policy was to blame for her death, rather than the individual cop, has much merit. Let's get the city council and concerned citizens together to change policy. It would not be 'caving' to criminals but could prevent a lot of future incidents as well as dead cops.

mockturtle said...

The point that city policy was to blame for her death, rather than the individual cop, has much merit. Let's get the city council and concerned citizens together to change policy. It would not be 'caving' to criminals but could prevent a lot of future incidents as well as dead cops.

Elliott A said...

My dad taught me from an early age that bad things can happen if you are with someone you shouldn't be or are someplace you shouldn't be. And, when something does happen it is your fault.

William said...

TreeJoe presents a reasonable and knowledgeable recitation of facts that points towards the culpability of the police. Well and good, but the facts don't prove first degree murder or racism. The raid was wrong and wrong maybe both in concept and execution. Even so, the cops involved in the raid are caught up in some larger issues and are being unfairly demonized. I would not vote to either indict or convict them of murder.

Greg The Class Traitor said...

SensibleCitizen said...
No knock warrants greatly reduce the risk of a gunfight.

They may greatly reduce the risk of gunfights with criminals, but they greatly INCREASE the risk of gunfights with non-criminals whose houses are being invaded by cops who have the wrong address, etc.

No. I've been opposed to them for years, and I'm not going to change my position on that just because Burn Loot and Murder is also against them.

See, blind pigs and mushrooms

There's no legitimate reason for the cops to be busting into my home. But many opther innocent people have been killed because cops burst into their homes on no-knock warrants.

I don't care what % of them are served correctly. I don't care home many drug dealers they catch with them.

Until the failure rate is 0% (which isn't going to happen) they are an illegitimate threat to law abiding people

End them

mockturtle said...

We lost the War on Drugs many years ago and, just like any unsuccessful military adventure, we need to cut our losses and get out.

Sam L. said...

Nothing to see here; it's just the WaPoo, WaPooping. Go about your business.

Lucid-Ideas said...

@stlcdr
@bigmike
@todd

Police exist to catch criminals. Their mission is to build cases against drug dealers. Do we prefer that those drug dealers get arrested rather than shot or killed? Sure. We and they DO NOT default to politeness trumping getting the fucking job done.

When I was in Iraq and we provided intel to our 'door-kickers', we always made sure to tell them to be polite as possible, knock thrice, turn around three times, wait 5 minutes, open the door and then whisper sweet nothings in our target's ear to come peaceably. It was our M.O....damned if our commander didn't chew our asses out every single time!

TL;DR - All accommodations are operational in priority only. We do not allow criminals to dictate the way in which we enforce the law.

Bob said...

"If police want to search a house or person for drugs, why not position cops outside the person's house, overnight if necessary, wait for him or her or them to come out the door, present a search warrant and THEN go inside?"

Crazy Jane, that's a crazy idea. Doing things that way would be expensive! It would cost the taxpayers more in overtime for the cops. Better to have a good shoot-'em-up-bang-bang and get it over with. Who cares if they don't know who is in the house? The new boyfriend was probably up to no good anyway. Shoot first and make excuses later!

Michael K said...

Supposedly (and I don't believe it's true) the police did announce. Then why get a no knock warrant? That tells me the police lied about the need for a no knock warrant or they lied about announcing themselves.

It was the boyfriend who admitted they knocked.

clint said...

I think there's strong bipartisan agreement, now, that middle-of-the-night SWAT raids are not a good idea.

But the fix to bad policy is to change the policy -- as Louisville already has and Rand Paul proposed doing nationally -- not punishing random people who were unlucky enough to be carrying out that bad policy when things went wrong.

Unless the officers behaved badly (like the one who was indicted), this is exactly what qualified immunity is supposed to be for.

Fernandinande said...

Look at how often it involved tobacco and taxes.

Interesting, I hadn't noticed that before.

Francisco D said...

Dust Bunny Queen said... No Knock Raids should be abolished.

The No Knock exemption was exercised in the coordinated raids that night, but not at Brianna Taylor's place. The police knocked and waited. They exercised poor judgment that night that resulted in one of their own being shot by a drug dealer.

At the residences where the No Knock exemption to the judicial warrants were exercised, there was no gunfire.

You may have cause to disagree with No Knock warrants but this case does not support your position. It does the opposite.

Chris Lopes said...

"She was the most likely of the group to be an informant, so she was in serious danger."

And they did a great job of protecting her.

Yancey Ward said...

I am an opponent of such midnight raids. There are better ways to arrest people and to seize evidence in homes like this given a proper warrant.

Having said that, though, all of the media reporting on this story was clearly wrong and likely just a pack of lies spread by Taylor's family attorneys and the various politicians using it for propaganda.

Robert Cook said...

No-knock warrants and door-busting night (and day) raids by armed, uniformed state thugs are innately unconstitutional and should be forbidden in all cases. A citizen's civil rights protections against unreasonable search and seizure take priority over the state's interest in finding or preventing the disposal of any evidence of criminal activity they suspect the citizen of having committed. The Bill of Rights is a shield to protect the people from the state's abuse of power; it is not meant to facilitate the state in abusing its power.

This case (and others like it) are brutal illustrations of the nature of the unleashed state. We are not any more virtuous than any other state, and neither, as human beings, are we any more "evolved" or less brutal than any others. It is only to the degree we adhere to constitutional restrictions on the state that citizens can assume we will be shielded from government overreach and abuse.

This is an assumption that must be considered effectively invalid.

Balfegor said...

You don't even need to legalize drugs. Just apply greater scrutiny to the situations in which no knock warrants (or midnight warrants or whatever) are authorized. And if judges and prosecutors and police can't exercise their discretion responsibly and restrict these tactics to extraordinary cases, then take it away from them. No more no-knock warrants.

Are there any states that prohibit no-knock entry ("exigent circumstances") or warrants today? I think the answer is no, but am not sure. Seems like a question ripe for the laboratories of democracy.

Mark said...

Whether it is Taylor or Roger Stone, these late night / early morning raids are wrong and have often led to shootings like this.

Robert Cook said...

"Don't do the crime, and you won't have to worry about this."

1. We all have to worry about this. Plenty of people who "haven't done the crime" have been subjected to such unconstitutional invasions of their homes by unannounced armed officers, with pets murdered and the residents similarly traumatized or harmed, often through stupid mistakes (going to the wrong address, or an address where a suspect once resided but has long vacated, for examples).

2. Even people who have "done the crime" enjoy the constitutional protections against state power.

3. How do you know the parties in this case "did the crime?"

Oso Negro said...

Hmm. Perhaps I need to switch from a S&W 38 on my nightstand to a 12 Gauge Saiga with a 20 shell drum. If you are the only one left alive when the shooting stops, the narrative is whatever you say.

Bruce Hayden said...

“ Taylor's surviving boyfriend (who shot at the entering police, hitting one and seriously wounding) claims to have not heard any announcement, and (I think) claims to believe that the door was being breached by the former drug-dealing boyfriend, looking for Breonna, or drugs, or money.”

This is like the “Hands up, Don’t shoot” myth created by Mike Brown”s accessory, who was potentially culpable for Brown’s death as such under the Felony Murder statute. BF here could easily be culpable of Felony Murder since his shooting at the cops was the proximate cause of her death. Same result - the accomplice has made themself safe from prosecution for their participation in the crime.

PM said...

"Legalize and then focus on treatment."

The closest example of what that'll look like is on the streets of SF.

Bob Smith said...

I’m OK with legalization as long as we eliminate using drug and alcohol addiction as excuses for absenteeism and substandard job performance. You haven’t lived until some smug twerp has violated every rule in your rule book, is up for dismissal and rolls out “I really don’t want to admit it but I’m addicted to drugs/alcohol.” And you have to offer rehab.

narciso said...

susan rosenberg 'say her name' isn't interested in police brutality, she's interested in revolution, and considering tolstoy's aphorism, even if you are not interested,

Robert Cook said...

"'Legalize them!' What's 'them?' All drugs? It could be meth, pot, fent, anything?
Yee-haw!

"I've been hearing this facile 'solution' for years and I'm still waiting. I mean, I could get behind it.

"Come on, man!"


Portugal decriminalized personal possession of all drugs nearly 20 years ago, and it has been pretty successful.

Mr Wibble said...

"Rabid, over-enthusiastic drug enforcement. People die over nothing. Legalize and then focus on treatment."

Fuck that. If it's legal than not a single goddamn cent should be spent on "treatment". You're an adult and responsible for your own actions. Society should not be forced to pay every time you decide you want to get clean.

Jupiter said...

"In this case, Taylor’s boyfriend saw the police and thought they were intruders. He says he fired in self-defense. The police fired back, in self-defense against his self-defense."

Well, they were "intruders". But they were also the police, and they claim they identified themselves as such. Now, if he had been half-asleep in bed, I might believe he didn't hear them. But he was on his feet, with a gun in his hand. So someone is lying. Someone besides the WaPo, that is.

MadisonMan said...

Breanna Taylor was no innocent waif.
So what? No one should be shot in their homes during a raid.
At least in the case of Bou-Bou, the agent involved and the judge both stepped down from their jobs -- almost immediately. (I wonder what that agent is doing nowadays...google search reveals she is now a stay-at-home Mom).

Jupiter said...

Blogger TreeJoe said...
"My problem with this story is that by all accounts the residents WERE LAW ABIDING in every aspect."

TJ, you must mean "all accounts written by Democrats", AKA lying liars who lie. Her current boyfriend may have been abiding him some laws, but she was mixed up in her former boyfriend's drug business. That would be the former boyfriend she said was driving her rental car when the corpse turned up in the trunk. That former boyfriend. Shit happens.

The problem with your theory, is that according to you, the police knowingly raided the apartment of two known law-abiders in the middle of the night. Now, if they did that, they are very bad cops. But that is not what they told the judge they were getting ready to do.

cacimbo said...

I have participated in about 25 no-knock warrants.The entry itself was done by the emergency services unit.None resulted in a shoot-out thank goodness. Are we(the cops) concerned about evidence being destroyed - sure.I recall one case they actually arranged to have the water cut off to prevent flushing of the evidence. But the real worry is safety. Here in NYC police vs drug dealer is hard core. Drug dealers grease railings/stairs, dig holes, build false walls, have elaborate camera set ups.... Drug dealers set traps for the police and we try to avoid/find them without getting seriously injured. On one warrant we executed, the steel door was so heavily fortified that after an hour they finally cut through the side of the building to gain entry.The lowest level dealers are treated like slaves. Some are are made to lay in cramped hidey holes for hours, handing out drugs to the next dealer up the chain in response to a special knock.They also literally lock dealers into buildings with no exit until the security gate is opened for the next shift by a higher level dealer. Guns and even small bombs are routinely found during these drug warrants.The dealers are usually heavily armed to protect themselves from other dealers looking to expand their territory.You try to get as much info as possible on the place you are going to enter, but you never know what you are walking into and expect the worst.

Most commenters here probably have a middle/upper class view of drug dealing. You call a number and a very normal well dressed person drops the drugs off to you. Purchases are made in bulk so you don't have the constant traffic. Well in poor neighborhoods it is very different.These warrants are not about police getting a few vials- it is about the quality of life for entire buildings and blocks of residents. The dealers take over numerous apartments in one large building. The stuff is moved around throughout the day.The people moving the stuff are either armed or escorted by armed thugs so they are not robbed by the junkies. The junkies wander the building like something in a zombie movie. So taking out the drug dealers is not about getting a few bags of drugs - it is about shutting down the network. That improves the entire area.

That said, the system is not working. As soon as you lock one person up - they are replaced. The wait list for rehab is years long. Dealers don't care who they sell to.When I was in high school in NJ it was easier to get drugs than alcohol.So me - I would love to see ALL drugs legalized. Not in the absurd way they are doing marijuana, but 100% legal to all above a specified age, just like alcohol.Thanks to education and treatment alcohol use and abuse has declined significantly in the USA over the past few decades. Treat drugs the same. Those who can use responsibly should be allowed. Dump the billions we are spending on drug enforcement into drug education and rehab programs.

Balfegor said...

Re: Sebastian:

It doesn't seem to be particularly rare, although it's probably a small minority of home invasions. Just googling "home invasion" and "claimed to be police" I get:

During the incident, the suspects announced themselves as “HPD” several times and demanded that the residents put their hands up, police said.

Three suspects who broke into a home near Buford Saturday morning and tied up the residents claimed to be police officers, officials said


The Kentucky State Police Post 1 is seeking assistance in gathering information regarding a home invasion in Trigg County where suspects falsely identified themselves as Trigg County Sheriff's Officers, according to a KSP news release.


Police are hunting for three armed intruders who broke into a Lynnwood home and claimed to be police before pepper-spraying the residents and robbing them at gunpoint.

According to a release, the investigation revealed that three males forced entry into the residence while brandishing firearms and claiming to be with the Boone County Sheriff’s Department.

It's not a made-up concern.

Joe Smith said...

"Legalize and then focus on treatment."

I'm as libertarian as the next guy, but the dude was a fentanyl dealer, he wasn't selling joints to community college stoners...

Did the cops have sound to go along with their body cams? Seems that would clear things up.

As for night raids, the first thing I think of is David Koresh and Waco. The guy was well-known and was frequently seen in town. Why not just pull him over on the way to the grocery store or bust him sitting in a coffee shop?

Because that sensible (and safe) tactic doesn't show the little people who is in charge of their lives...it wouldn't instill the necessary fear of the feds. They treat taxpayers like shit because they can.

Ask Roger Stone how he knows this...

Jupiter said...

Drago, I agree with everything you said, except;

"Basically, every single thing everyone thought they knew about this case 2 weeks ago has been a complete lie. A knowing and massive lie."

I have known most of the facts you cite for months. There was a video about it by some black ex-cop in Texas, if I recall correctly, who read all the docs and laid it all out pretty clearly, shortly after it happened. Same with the Trayvon shit, and the Gentle Giant, and George Floyd. You people need to stop paying attention to the bullshit in the MSM, and listen to what is on the web. There is crazy shit out there, but you can sort through it.

Jupiter said...

I have been fairly far down the Libertarian primrose path, at times, but you folks talking about legalizing drugs need to understand what you are saying. Either

a) It should be legal to sell any substance in any quantity to anyone, making any claims you like about it, or
b) The police should continue to enforce some drug laws, thereby creating a lucrative market for those willing to accept the risks.

Automatic_Wing said...

"Rabid, over-enthusiastic drug enforcement. People die over nothing. Legalize and then focus on treatment."

This approach would be a disaster. Roughly 70 times as many people die from drug overdoses as are killed by police in all situations. "Just legalize it, maaaan" will just create more addicts and more overdoses.

MadisonMan said...

cacimbo, I appreciate being able to read that POV. Thanks for sharing it.

Achilles said...

rcocean said...

Why not go even further. Lets get rid of crimes. Then we won't need to arrest anyone or have the police. Problem solved.

That is a really stupid straw man argument.

Stupid enough to adjust my perception of the rest of your posts.

MadisonMan said...

cacimbo, thanks for sharing that POV. I appreciated being able to read it.

If you see this comment twice, blame Blogger.

J Melcher said...

No Knock warrants entail the idea that the quantity of evidence that CAN be quickly disposed of between the announcement of the warrant and the securing of the scene, is physically small enough to go down the toilet. The whole "no-knock" idea is to bust CONSUMERS. Not warehouses, not factories, not transportation hubs, not dealer showrooms ... not anybody with suitcases or pallet-loads of merchandise or cash. The evidence sought in a no-knock raid- and-search is inherently SMALL.

Maybe a terabyte thumb drive with nuclear launch codes is an exception. But I find it difficult to imagine a scenario where local cops after local offenders are searching for serious evidence of a major crime that is going to evaporate between the sound of the doorbell and the entry of the search team.

Earnest Prole said...

Race has nothing to do with this case; it’s just another no-knock drug raid gone wrong. Eliminate qualified immunity for those investigating victimless crimes and police will instantly behave more responsibly.

Greg The Class Traitor said...

Automatic_Wing said...
This approach would be a disaster. Roughly 70 times as many people die from drug overdoses as are killed by police in all situations. "Just legalize it, maaaan" will just create more addicts and more overdoses.

I don't care. If a bunch of idiots want to kill themselves, that's their problem.

My problem is with police invading the homes of law abiding citizens, those law abiding citizens trying to protect themselves from home invasion, and those law abiding citizens getting killed.

One law abiding person killed by a bad non knock raid is a tragedy. 1000 people killing themselves with drug overdoses is a statistic

Edmund said...

A few points:
- the cops were plainclothes. Not clear if they were in any kind of uniform at the time of the warrant.
- the "evidence" that she was involved in her former boyfriend's drug trade was that several packages for him had been delivered to her. Postal inspectors were contacted before the warrant was issued and said nothing suspicious was delivered there. Her ex said he had shoes and clothes sent there because it was more secure than the house he was in. (Plausable, as the packages might have been left at an office, rather than doorstep.)
- the officer that was wounded may have been hit by friendly fire.

https://www.courier-journal.com/story/news/crime/2020/06/16/breonna-taylor-fact-check-7-rumors-wrong/5326938002/?fbclid=IwAR0_GCeX1e5Gw2tkkam7ytnd0-yRQl-8ms1vFytg85AU9FyuosweCDyOliA

BleachBit-and-Hammers said...

Do we ever hear of a no-knock raid that worked out?

Jupiter said...

' "Just legalize it, maaaan" will just create more addicts and more overdoses.'

You're not getting the picture here, Auto. That's a feature, not a bug. A LOT of us are sick of self-indulgent assholes making our lives worse. If they want to bliss out and die, well, ta-ta. Be sure to write. We'll just have to soldier on without the crippling burden of your existence. Of course, when it's someone you care about, you start to think about the needle and the damage done.

mockturtle said...

This case (and others like it) are brutal illustrations of the nature of the unleashed state. We are not any more virtuous than any other state, and neither, as human beings, are we any more "evolved" or less brutal than any others. It is only to the degree we adhere to constitutional restrictions on the state that citizens can assume we will be shielded from government overreach and abuse.

Well-stated, Cookie! On this, I agree with you 100%.

Kansas Scout said...

There are other examples of raids resulting in innocent homeowners/residents being killed when trying to defend themselves from a perceived home invasion. There were very good reasons to raid the Taylor apt. It's the boy friend that opened fire striking a policeman. He was a drug dealer and no innocent.

mockturtle said...

Bob Smith suggests: I’m OK with legalization as long as we eliminate using drug and alcohol addiction as excuses for absenteeism and substandard job performance.

And end Social Security Disability Benefits based on alcoholism/addiction. I mean, how stupid can we get??? [Answer: We have no idea but the possibilities are endless]

mockturtle said...

Automatic complains: Roughly 70 times as many people die from drug overdoses as are killed by police in all situations.

Self-inflicted attrition. Sad but the consequences of stupidity are often dire.

Todd said...

Lucid-Ideas said...

We do not allow criminals to dictate the way in which we enforce the law.

9/25/20, 11:22 AM


I am not a f*cking criminal. The police do NOT have the right to bust into my home with a no-knock warrant and then shoot me, my wife, and/or my dog because THEY were worried for their safety, regardless of if I threw some lead their way when I heard my door being busted in. End of story.

The police are TOO militarized and judges have zero accountability for signing off on these with little to no oversight. A no-knock should be the last resort and should be done with the utmost of care. They didn't even know she was NOT alone. What the hell.

So if that means that a few gang-bangers or drug dealers get to ply their craft another day or two so be it. What ever happened to innocent until proven guilty? Me dead in the living room as the result of a no-knock is NOT "innocent until proven guilty", it is "law suit settled out of court to get the wife off of the 6-o-clock news". Big difference.

Levi Starks said...

Why does it need to be legalize and focus on treatmen?
Why can’t it be legalize and let nature take its course?

Todd said...

Oso Negro said...

Hmm. Perhaps I need to switch from a S&W 38 on my nightstand to a 12 Gauge Saiga with a 20 shell drum. If you are the only one left alive when the shooting stops, the narrative is whatever you say.

9/25/20, 11:53 AM


Expecially when the body cams on the Police all go faulty at once...

Todd said...

Automatic_Wing said...

Roughly 70 times as many people die from drug overdoses as are killed by police in all situations. "Just legalize it, maaaan" will just create more addicts and more overdoses.

9/25/20, 12:43 PM


Sounds like a self-solving problem then...

hstad said...

Oh, look the WaPo article forgot one real point - the warrant issued was for a known large scale drug pusher. Forget about the WaPo dressing this guy up as an EMT worker. LOL - that's the source of most illicit drugs. Moreover, the cops stated they "banged on the door several times yelling "Police". I wonder why WaPo forgot to mention such evidence - narrative broken. But of course Taylor's boyfriend stated the "police did not identify themselves" interesting narrative for a defense. We'll see/hear the audio of this event soon which I suspect is a lie by "Taylor's" boyfriend or maybe the cops lied.

Oso Negro said...

Blogger Automatic_Wing said...
"Rabid, over-enthusiastic drug enforcement. People die over nothing. Legalize and then focus on treatment."

This approach would be a disaster. Roughly 70 times as many people die from drug overdoses as are killed by police in all situations. "Just legalize it, maaaan" will just create more addicts and more overdoses.

9/25/20, 12:43 PM


I like this logic! Let's apply it to cars and women working outside the home also.

Narayanan said...

Do they blow out door lock handle as shown in ....

Would shooting out locks like in No Country for Old Men work in real life

Jim at said...

So what's race got to do with it?

Nothing. Except to be used as a bludgeon by the left.

If precious Breonna had been white, we would've never heard one word about any of this.

Narayanan said...

The police are TOO militarized and judges have zero accountability for signing off on these with little to no oversight ....
,_-------
It should be required to do field demonstrate at judge's home for every warrant and team.

cacimbo said...

@Jupiter "It should be legal to sell any substance in any quantity to anyone, making any claims you like about it.."

Why not regulation similar to current alcohol and legal drug laws. The state regulates accuracy of labeling and enforces reasonable restrictions on sale such as a minimum age to purchase and use - like no DUI.

Michael K said...

I am not a f*cking criminal. The police do NOT have the right to bust into my home with a no-knock warrant and then shoot me, my wife, and/or my dog because THEY were worried

Unless, of course, you are Roger Stone.

BUMBLE BEE said...

Hands up don't shoot, I can't breathe, how about drunk drivers only having "a couple of beers" then blowing .19? Cacimbo is right. It is nasty business and hundreds of thousands die from it every year. Death is an occupational hazard in that line of work for both sides. No junkie ever quits that shit because they caught a case. Recovery rates hover around %2, with %98 failure. You wanna talk about Deadly Infections (Covid)? Talk meth, heroin and fentanyl. Too many theorists here tryin to pick up the turd by the clean end. Call 'em a cab and invite them down to the precinct. Willful ignorance in action.

Lucid-Ideas said...

@Todd

Read Cacimbo above. These people make life absolutely miserable for anyone and everything around them. They are terrorists in everything except strict definition only. They work constantly, build networks, and organize efficiently to thwart law enforcement at every turn.

I do not necessarily see a specific problem with law enforcement doing everything they can to accomplish their mission and keep themselves from being denied success. I believe that those measures should be within reason. I do not advocate for no-knock warrants in every case, maybe not even in 1% of cases, but I am not going to say that there are not times when such a tactic is absolutely necessary. I've never been a cop, but I feel comfortable saying that.

Furthermore, I also believe in law enforcement being held accountable for operational fuck-ups, of which one officer most definitely did in this case (firing blind IS NOT standard police practice anywhere in the world except maybe Mozambique). I expect operational planning and good judgement to be used and maximum analysis be carried out before taking high operational risk scenarios. As another commenter alluded above, "We never hear about the raids that went right." Yeah...because the vast majority don't end up going upside-down. I'm not even sure if the numbers of operational catastrophes is statistically significant, not without seeing hard data.

Criminals shouldn't be allowed to dictate how we bring them to justice. All of the rest of us do that and for me, I'm fine with operational tactics - from time to time - which enable these urban-terrorists to be brought to justice.


Ken B said...

Pelosi just said the cops murdered Taylor.

JaimeRoberto said...

Many years ago in a different country I was in a night club that got raided by the cops, except they didn't look like cops. They were wearing ski masks and no visible identification. I thought they were the local mafia coming to teach someone a lesson. It wasn't until about 5 minutes into the raid that someone identifiable as a cop appeared. Luckily nobody started shooting, but crap like that is a recipe for disaster.

Narr said...

Self-described small-l libertarian here. (I.e. I think there should be many fewer, but more strictly enforced, laws.)

People gonna OD. I have known some, and few were any loss to the world.

Cook and the other critics are right--this is deadly state power in service of half-assed public policy, more dangerous than the drugs themselves to people who are marginally or not-at-all involved (not to mention for the cops).

Narr
DARE to think outside the box

hstad said...


Blogger Sebastian said...
Blogger Achilles said...
"...anyone can call themselves police and barge in. Fair point. How often does that happen? How many gang shootings or home killings involved false announcements, of the sort that would put criminals like Walker on edge? 9/25/20, 10:56 AM..."

True, but in this case - Walker did not open the door - cops just knocked it down. So how does announcing you're the cop relate to the "home invasion" arguement?

PatHMV said...

cacimbo, thank you very much for that first-hand report. Very valuable perspective, clearly from one who knows of what he speaks.

The counter point, I think, is that many police in areas that are NOT New York City, Chicago, or Detroit nevertheless have an attitude that they want to play just like the "big boys" on the NYPD. So they get the gear and go on exercises to prove it. Just following "best practices," of course... but those best practices are derived from those with the most experience, who developed them in the context you describe, where it really is very nearly like a war between the forces of order and disorder. They should not be adopted willy-nilly in other environments.

I spent my first 5 years out of law school as a prosecutor. I saw the attitude first hand. Even the basically honest cops very often had secret power trips. Institutionally, the PD ALWAYS wanted an armored personnel carrier and other such quasi-military stuff. When they buy it, it's "just in case." But after they buy it, it's an asset and they have to use it to justify the on-going maintenance costs and to be able to buy another one when it gets too old for continued service.

So between the power trips and "best practices" and the "use it or loose it" mentality to buy exciting gear to play with, you get a conflagration of bad approaches to the problem the police are trying to solve.

TheOne Who Is Not Obeyed said...

Levi Starks: "It’s not the police that are killing black men, it’s taxes."

It's not taxes that are killing black men, it's smoking and drinking. Those kill them at a much higher rate than anything else, whether they are procuring their smokes and drinks legally or illegally. You don't see a lot of black Seventh-Day Adventists passing forged bills to buy a pack of smokes while high on fentanyl.

Earnest Prole said...

I’m entirely law-abiding and sleep with a 12-gauge shotgun against my nightstand. If you wake me from a dead sleep by bashing through my front door while screaming unintelligible things, you take your chances.

Francisco D said...

Jupiter said... I have known most of the facts you cite for months. There was a video about it by some black ex-cop in Texas

You may be referring to Officer Tatum a former Tucson cop.

Brandon Tatum has an interesting YouTube channel. He sometimes appears with Candace Owens, Dave Rubin and an array of Black conservatives.

Unknown said...

You wake up in the night and men all in black are in your house shouting at you. What the hell should you think? Damn straight I would think robbers and shoot them. In no way do I know about the Taylor case. It should never be done. I don't care about evidence flushed. Too many innocent people get shot this way. Officers and even detectives should always be wearing their uniform when arresting someone. Not plainclothes. Not black.

Paul said...

"The method of entering a home at night is presented as necessary to prevent people with drugs from destroying the evidence. "

Ok, then WHY NOT JUST WAIT TILL DAYLIGHT???? It's that simple folks. Why late night raids unless it's some kind of emergency where they must invade (yes I said invade) the house NOW.

Balfegor said...

Re: Lucid-Ideas:

Looks like the number of no knock raids might be around 60,000 per year:

Data collected by Kraska shows that municipal police and sheriffs' departments used no-knock or quick-knock warrants about 1,500 times in the early 1980s, but that number rose to about 40,000 times per year by 2000, he said. In 2010, Kraska estimated 60,000-70,000 no-knock or quick-knock raids were conducted by local police annually.

Other estimates are lower, e.g. Vox claimed ,over 20,000 per year in a 2015 article.

So if the number that result in deaths is 30-40 per year, then that works out to somewhere between 0.05% and 0.2% of cases resulting in deaths (inexact because a single case may lead to multiple deaths).

Michael K said...

So between the power trips and "best practices" and the "use it or loose it" mentality to buy exciting gear to play with, you get a conflagration of bad approaches to the problem the police are trying to solve.

I don't disagree. I went round and round with the OC Sheriff's office about a ticket one gave my daughter but we are now in the BLM world. Cops are getting shot in rural traffic stops. Night raids on drug dealers are not my thing. I'm a bit more on the side of Tom Clancy's novel "Without Remorse."

Jupiter said...

Cacimbo said

"Why not regulation similar to current alcohol and legal drug laws. The state regulates accuracy of labeling and enforces reasonable restrictions on sale such as a minimum age to purchase and use - like no DUI."

Maybe. Here in Oregon, that is basically what has been done with marijuana, but there is still a huge black market. It is less profitable, and less violent, than it used to be. So there's that.

But how is that going to work for fentanyl and meth? LSD? If the seller is legally responsible for the consequences of use, nobody sane is going to sell those openly. Hell, if MDs and pharmacists were responsible for the consequences of using prescription drugs, you wouldn't be able to buy anything but aspirin.

Drago said...

Jupiter: "I have known most of the facts you cite for months. There was a video about it by some black ex-cop in Texas, if I recall correctly, who read all the docs and laid it all out pretty clearly, shortly after it happened. Same with the Trayvon shit, and the Gentle Giant, and George Floyd. You people need to stop paying attention to the bullshit in the MSM, and listen to what is on the web. There is crazy shit out there, but you can sort through it."

True.

Jupiter said...

"You may be referring to Officer Tatum a former Tucson cop."

That sounds like the guy. You could listen to him and tell he knew his ass from a hole in the ground.

TheConservativeTreehouse.com had the whole story on Trayvon within days, including the fact that his father is a gangster. Same for Gentle Giant. Lots of sites had videos of Floyd ditching drugs while sitting in handcuffs on the sidewalk. Other sites covered the fact that Minneapolis PD explicitly trained officers to use the kneeling neckhold. People are just now realizing that the autopsy made it clear he died of fentanyl poisoning, although I read about it the day after it was released, on unz.com. The truth is readily available, it's just not in the lying MSM.

donald said...

eric said...

We cannot discuss any sort of reform under these conditions and all you idiots wanting to do so are providing cover to the terrorists.

9/25/20, 10:11 AM

Nice try but no.

I don't want to have to worry that some Police are going to kick down my door in the middle of the night due to bad penmanship, bad snitch, or bad SWAT by some online nut-job. You kick in my door at night, there WILL be gun fire. One of mine getting shot or killed because the cops "have a right to shoot back" when they did not EVER need to bust in ANY door is murder under color of law. THAT has to stop. We should NOT let D city antifa/BLM distract us from what is right and what is wrong. They are wrong. No knock warrants are also wrong.



Every single damned ❤️ There ever was.

iowan2 said...

The Bill of Rights are meant to protect me from the government. The Bill of Rights enumerate actions prohibited by the govt. Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutly.
David Koresh
Mrs. Randy Weaver
Kevin Clinesmith
James Clapper

Eliminate middle of the night raids and busting down doors. Killing people to protect them can not be justified. Exigent circumstances are one thing. Busting down doors under the color of authority, is a pure violation of privacy.

Understand leftist are the ones that love the raw exercise of power. Not making a claim it is only leftist, just that the leftist get the biggest hard-ons exercising it.

Automatic_Wing said...

@mockturtle - Self-inflicted attrition. Sad but the consequences of stupidity are often dire.

By this logic, Breonna Taylor is "self-selected attrition" as well. No one made her participate in a drug gang. Was definitely a case of her choosing poorly.

funsize said...

So if the cops do knock, and a shootout or high speed chase ensues, the potential for someone to be wrongfully harmed remains. I'm against forced entry raids on homes but admit I don't have a better suggestion.

Also the statement that Taylor was standing nearby contradicts the narrative that she was murdered in her bed. Which was it?

Robert Cook said...

"Criminals shouldn't be allowed to dictate how we bring them to justice."

No, we have the Constitution for that. The constitution is not written to "protect criminals," and it is not written to make it more convenient for the government to exercise its power against citizens. It is written impede the state's ability to exert that power, in order to protect citizens, including those accused of crimes, from unrestrained government might.

"No-knock' warrants and late-night terroristic smash-and-invade police operations are unconstitutional, criminal abuse of state power.

mockturtle said...

By Jupiter: If the seller is legally responsible for the consequences of use

Sellers of liquor and tobacco are not responsible for the effects of their use.

mockturtle said...

The Constitution is all we've got, folks. As someone up-thread observes, it's the only thing standing between us and a totalitarian state. And if forced to choose between safety and freedom, I'll choose freedom every time.

n.n said...

Another protest founded and sustained on a false or misleading premise.

Nichevo said...


BleachBit-and-Hammers said...
Do we ever hear of a no-knock raid that worked out?
9/25/20, 1:07 PM


Cacimbo cited about 25.

Seems like these police lacked sufficient intelligence, preparation, for their raid. Non-no-knock though it was, it would seem they would have benefited from fiber optic probes and infrared cameras and all the other jazz you see on TV when they have a hostage situation or a ticking time bomb scenario. At the very least they should have had surveillance sufficient to know the occupants of the house.

That said, raids, knock or not, are sometimes necessary. That said, the St. Valentine's Day Massacre demonstrates adequately that even uniforms and badges are not proof positive of identity and authority.

That said, if all major drugs were safe and legal, regulated for purity like OTC drugs or possibly like liquor/tobacco to control distribution by age, I think this would accomplish most harm reduction.

A pack of joints should probably cost like a pack of smokes, production cost around 20¢ a pack, $1 a pack is fair, $20 a pack allows everyone to wet their beak. And if you could buy Bayer heroin or Mallinckrodt cocaine and Becton-Dickinson apparatus, nobody would need it cut with fentanyl and strychnine and injected with dirty needles.

And in neither case would it be so expensive that you had to rob your grandmother or perform fellatio to pay for it. At this point the illegal market would be pretty damn marginal as the only ones who couldn't get it would be kids and a) they're not too lucrative a market and b) they would just get it where they get butts and booze now.

And the normality of it would probably lead to less glamor, less abuse, less overuse. I've been prescribed amphetamines. They work. They're great. But too much of them is not great and when my shrink pooh-poohed my concerns about his steadily increased dosages for me, I quit him and them. I see no reason why I can't buy dexedrine or Adderall at my own discretion.

Were we a notably worse society a hundred years ago when you could send your twelve-year-old down to the drugstore and hardware store for a carton of Luckies, a quart of whiskey, a bottle of laudanum, and a .32 pistol?

Short answer: No. People are the problem.

Jeff said...

If you see this comment twice, blame Blogger.
Not the drugs?

Jonathan Graehl said...

bizarre. they knocked + announced. money grab lies one assumes.