"... because they have the context to decide whether an individual piece of content is hateful or not, for example. Which means that if we don’t have agreement from our moderators and our communities that these are the rules that we’re all going to abide by, then a community that’s not willing to work with us has no place on Reddit. And I think that became abundantly clear with The_Donald over the years, and even the past few months.... The mission of Reddit is to bring community and belonging to everybody in the world. And we’ve long had this debate on Reddit and internally, weighing the trade-offs between speech and safety. There’s certain speech — for example, harassment and hate — that prevents other people from speaking. And if we have individuals and communities on Reddit that are preventing other people from using Reddit the way we intend, then that means they’re working directly against our mission.... When we started Reddit 15 years ago, we didn’t ban things. And it was easy, as it is for many young people, to make statements like that* because, one, I had more rigid political beliefs and, two, I lacked perspective and real-world experience. Over the years, we’ve been increasingly confronted with difficult decisions, and we have to weigh these trade-offs. And so here we are, believing that free speech and free expression are really important, and that’s one of the things that makes Reddit special, but at the same time, seeing that allowing everything is working against our mission."
From "Reddit’s C.E.O. on Why He Banned ‘The_Donald’ Subreddit/Steve Huffman, Reddit’s co-founder and chief executive, says new rule changes will help the company fulfill its mission" (NYT).
__________________
* In 2018, Huffman — refusing to ban the subreddit The_Donald — said "There are arguments on both sides, but ultimately, my view is that their anger comes from feeling like they don’t have a voice, so it won’t solve anything if I take away their voice."
July 1, 2020
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74 comments:
Only the right is getting censored....and all the little Progressives are so smug in their thinking that their views aren't hateful to others because not everybody groupthinks.
As long as there are Progressives, there will NEVER be unity....they don't want it.
If he eliminated an Obama subreddit, he'd get cancelled.
To make sure everyone is welcome, we need to make some people unwelcome.
Also, four legs good, two legs better.
I'm not sure what they are going to find more surprising: when they find out that the people they wish to make welcome are not, in fact, going to each them last, or when they find out that well-armed people with nothing left to lose no longer feel constrained by social norms and/or laws.
How is this not election interference?
Anybody can write a bloviating document to defend whatever point of view is convenient for them in the moment. It's the specialty of university presidents everywhere. This reads like that.
So the choice is supposedly between speech and "safety." But speech IS safe, with rare exceptions, like yelling "fire" in a crowded theater. The idea that thoughts and feelings expressed in words can be banned because of their supposed violent effects on the listeners basically means there can never be truly free speech, because there will always be someone who can claim that what you're trying to say is hurtful to them. I can't believe we've reached the point where responsible people in charge of media companies either don't understand this or do understand it, but care so little about free speech that they'd ban it anyway based on this ludicrous premise.
The sea makes widows. This is just one more.
He should listen to his younger self.
Reddit is pretty much just another propaganda arm of the CCP as they're heavily invested in it. BTW some time past Althouse linked to a Redddit board (Forwards from grandma)which, since it has an occasional good meme, I check out occasionally. The comments to most posts show an absolutely miseducated, uneducated mob of mentally bankrupt drones.
"There’s certain speech — for example, harassment and hate — that prevents other people from speaking."
You know what else prevents people from speaking? Deleting their online community.
"There’s certain speech — for example, harassment and hate — that prevents other people from speaking."
That statement makes no sense to me. Certain speech may be tedious and annoying to me, but I can't see how it would prevent me from speaking. It might result in my speech being harder to find and appreciate in a sea of other people's garbage, but that's not the same thing, is it?
I fear the marketplace of ideas and expression is being stifled by lefties for whom 'stifling' is the goal. Shut up, they explained.
Even more embarrassing than that exercise in double-talk -- speech on the internet that some find objectionable supposedly prevents others from speaking on the internet -- is the reality that its author probably believes what he's saying.
Bullshit.
Besides, there haven't been posts to TD for four months, so why ban it now? The banning is just for show. Everyone left that subreddit for another site and Discord channel.
Pleroma, Mastodon, and their Fediverse is replacing all of this. Users can self-moderate, and they can belong to as many of the thousands of instances as will have them.
Centralized social media is on the way out, albeit slowly, victims of the temptations of power too great for their masters to resist.
More rigid political beliefs.
Why is it, like with SCOTUS, these guys only ever "evolve" in one direction?
Not being a Redditor and never having visited The_Donald, I have no examples in mind, and none of the articles I’ve read have provided any either, but my bullshit meter is going off.
You mean harrassment and hate that the blm/antifa/democrat/media are engaged in. Keeping people from speaking?
So clueless and myopic
In more recent years, it had devolved into a cesspool of racism, violent threats and targeted harassment
That sums up all of social media. To single out groups is to play favorites.
There’s certain speech — for example, harassment and hate — that prevents other people from speaking. And if we have individuals and communities on Reddit that are preventing other people from using Reddit the way we intend, then that means they’re working directly against our mission
To be fair, I don't have any knowledge of specifics when it comes to whatever the heck The_Donald users were supposedly doing and whether it was somehow suppressing or preventing certain people from speaking. But from what I can see on a high level, when it comes to anti-Trump messaging that turns up on Reddit, it sure seems to me like there wasn't really any suppression. Whenever I've visted Reddit for the past few years now, when I load the default front page feed, every single time there's a least 2 or 3 negative Trump stories at the top. So if the argument that he's making here is that somehow the denizens of The_Donald were making it hard for people to speak their minds about Trump, I certainly didn't see any evidence of it.
Do they have a Bent Knee community?
I'll bet there are plenty of Reddit Communities I'd find filled with hate.
Doesn't everyone see the shrinking freedom to hold an opposing view to the left?
Terrifying.
Based on that quote from 2018, it sounds like another leftist who came to realize that his OWN security from the mob depended on "reevaluating" his commitment to free speech. No doubt the pressure to ban r/The_Donald (and countless other "hate" communities became overwhelming. Can't risk his own rice bowl over the free speech rights of deplorables, after all....
Another one bites the dust.
It's never clear to me how online harassment poses a danger. Someone might be embarrassed to speak, or too frustrated to air an unpopular view, but where is the danger? I suppose if someone knows enough about you to doxx you...?
If by the grace of a God with an amazing sense of humor Donald Trump wins reelection, is there any chance in hell that those who say they stifle viewpoints because some people feel "threatened" by them will reach the correct conclusion - that people lie publicly about being Trump supporters because the gatekeepers have made the social cost so high? Will they recognize that they've shot themselves in the foot again? That the antidote to speech you don't like is to counter it with your own speech, so that your point of view is contrasted with the speech you object to?
Or it could be that they're just perpetually afraid they can't win the debate. Since they're the side of feelings, and particularly the side of hurt feelings and delicate feelings, the side of participation trophies and ever-more-granular self-identification so that everyone can feel both special and safe in the middle of the herd, naturally they'd go with "don't challenge my feelings!"
Far far more concerning to me is that they banned the conservative LGBT subreddit. There was no point to that. You can be gay and conservative.
For the record, that was supposed to be "eat them last" not "each them last." For some reason, "each" sounds more ominous.
If he eliminated an Obama subreddit, he'd get Epsteined.
@RMc, FIFY friend
"The mission of Reddit is to bring community and belonging to everybody in the world."
By excluding people progs hate, on the ground that they're haters. Everybody, except.
"There’s certain speech — for example, harassment and hate — that prevents other people from speaking."
And we hate that speech, and we intend to prevent it!
I think that banning hate speech from the Internet is a good and even noble cause. Provided that I get to be the one who decides what constitutes hate speech.
I used to like Reddit, but it now joins the list of social media I will do without.
@tim
r/The_Donald is pretty much home to all those Pepe the Frog memes, cheering of Trump meme tweets and all that crap. While that doesn't necessarily originate in that subreddit, it gets amplified there.
This sort of this is an example, the NPC meme Orange Man Bad video.
I dunno why or how it would make someone feel "unsafe", though I haven't looked at it in a while. I suspect, given the events of the last few months, it would be full of posts that were calling out the destruction of statues and other things. It's also one of those subreddits where you have to wonder if half the posters aren't Mobys.
The incompetent feel left out whenever the right has a subchannel.
Ehh, theDonald was not that interesting tbh.
I like to read the various professions subs, and city subs where riots are happening. I just read them, mostly. Let them tell their story. More damning evidence there than at right-wing sites.
Know your enemy.
I don't believe him. He simply caved, because the Karens just wouldn't let it go. Another Karen's veto. I think being honest about that would be a really good thing. It would let everyone know who is really doing the censoring. Of course that would make him look weak, even though it would actually be brave and helpful to his whole community.
The thing about Reddit is that you can pick and choose which sub-reddits you want to look at. You can make a list of subscribed subs. And never ever ever have to look at one that offends you. If The Donald is offensive to you....you don't have to look at it. No one is making you. In fact, when The_Donald was active it was basically an echo chamber. Just like most liberal web sites or reddit subs. So effing what?
This doesn't mean you aren't going to run across offensive commenters or that every sub is going to be free of offending political statements. Toughen up Buttercup!!!! if you can't scroll fast enough just ignore the ignoramuses. The world is full of things that annoy me or offend my "delicate" sensibilities 😉
I subscribe to many subs that should be politically free....such as Knitting...yet there is always some commenter that cannot resist making some Anti Trump statement. KNITTING FOR GOD'S SAKE!!! Must you make it political???
I just throw a down vote their way and move on. Life is too short to argue with teenagers or emotionally stunted liberals.
I used to subscribe to r/The_Donald. It wasn't much different to here. They banned me, so I am not super sympathetic to their claims of censorship.
That's too bad. I always liked that there was still the wild west on the internet, but I guess reddit got too successful to be a maverick.
So, not an honest statement.
And in the end
The heat you make
Is equal to the hate
You take
There is such an ocean of crap on the web, and so many millions of comments.
What does it matter if one site is gone?
There’s too much of this shit as it is.
Complaints about censorship seem a little hollow from this viewpoint. Start your own weblog. Go to another site if you’re not welcome at one.
Nobody’s going to take your shit seriously anyway, unless you happen to be a major voice like Althouse.
Much ado about nothing.
"so it won’t solve anything if I take away their voice.”
That was before billionaires, who have gone from spending 32 million on elections in 2010 to 633 million today (almost all going to Democrats) set these new terms where defeating Trump is the mission of corporate America.
“The revolution will be televised” - Marshal McCluhan
Now its “The revolution will be heavily sponsored by billionaires and their corporations”
Makes you wonder what their agenda is. Why are they doing Xi’s work by trying to gin up a war between the US and Russia, for example, or to keep us bogged down in Afghanistan, or running Joe Biden who is already making promises to the weapons manufacturers to keep the lucre coming. “We will strenghten NATO”
What’s next? Afghanistan is a “good war”? I think we made our point there that you shouldn’t facilitate large scale terror attacks on the US.
Of course Biden also wants to end fracking, which is kissing not just Putin’s ass, but the Saudis too.
"Only the right is getting censored....and all the little Progressives are so smug in their thinking that their views aren't hateful to others because not everybody groupthinks."
I'm not so sure that's a terrible thing. It encourages them to continually prey upon themselves. The Left seems to have made a fetish of not knowing their enemies.
@JAORE "a bent knee community". Yeah. Wow.
I'm not sure why these platforms don't just say honestly and forthrightly: "We oppose Donald Trump and will exclude any groups that might help get him re-elected." I'm not enough of an expert on 1st amendment law to know, but I kind of think there would be no constitutional problem with this kind of statement.
This is fine. The left is making it all but certain that the only place for "the others" to express themselves truly and freely is in the privacy of a voting booth.
This is what the mentally weak do when they have run out of arguments or are losing badly in the marketplace of ideas. Flip over the chess board and declare victory.
Seeing what he said in 2018 and what he is saying now tells me he caved to the pressure and abandoned his principles. Indeed, those principles may have just been a pose.
No one is hurt by words, especially those written in an internet comment. Feeling 'unsafe' is nonsense, more like a character or psychological defect.
@ARM, you should never be banned. Verbally abused, yes. That’s just good, clean fun. But not banned.
America 1776: "Give me liberty or give me death."
America 2020: "if we don’t have agreement from our moderators and our communities that these are the rules that we’re all going to abide by, then a community that’s not willing to work with us has no place"
There’s certain speech — for example, harassment and hate — that prevents other people from speaking.
Since left wingers claim disagreement isn't just harassment but actually endangers them we understand what he means.
ARM, I've never been on TheDonald and have only been on fun subs like ghost stories and such, and furthermore I'm no fan of banning or blocking... but can you find it in your heart to acknowledge that there's a difference between a particular community's banning a voice that opposes the ethos of the community, and the "platform's" banning an entire community so that none of the other, separate communities (which, as has been pointed out, never have to visit at all if they choose not to) can be offended that it even exists?
Yes, it's those other people who are violent and dangerous, those Trump people. Giving them a little something should work. But when their shafts actually go home, we have to call a halt, because really, we're the smart people and they are the jerks. We are convinced the crocodiles will eat us last.
Hatred being in the eye of the beholder, the ear of the listener, the soul of the perpetually offended, is a big mistake. This heckler's veto is a vile abuse of public discourse. Only the speaker gets to determine the intent of the words spoken. Being offended is your personal problem, without any weight bearing upon my speech.
DBQ,
"KNITTING FOR GOD'S SAKE!!! Must you make it political???"
Check your white privilege!
/sarc
They banned me, so I am not super sympathetic to their claims of censorship.
Yeah, I got banned by the left wing sites I used to read and comment on. Bubble wrap.
They banned me, so I am not super sympathetic to their claims of censorship.
Like any subreddit that is "pro" a given topic, the mods will ban anyone who insists on posting "anti" comments. The rules are posted. If you don't like them, you don't have to read/post in that subreddit.
The memes were great, even when they were stupid. They had a contagious enthusiasm. Now, reddit thinks that if they hide that enthusiasm or force it to go somewhere else, it will cease to exist. The subreddit had been quarantined since June 2019. That meant that popular posts didn't show up on the front page and if you visited the subreddit it gave a dire warning about it being quarantined. It was kind of nice. A lot fewer people visiting just to downvote posts or make nasty, hateful comments.
I'm grateful that Reddit banned The_Donald. Conservatives can either moan about it, hope the DOJ puts Big Tech under a microscope- or build their own web sites, payment systems, financial systems, and countries. As you see at TheDonald.Win, which is a decently based site.
At which point, the people who do not belong in the countries will be expelled in similar fashion. And will have absolutely zero grounds to complain.
“The revolution will be televised” - Marshal McCluhan
@tim in vermont, it sure was televised. On the night of November 8, 2016. Some people haven’t yet gotten the message.
There’s certain speech — for example, harassment and hate — that prevents other people from speaking.
How does that supposedly "offensive" speech prevent others from commenting? I would think just the opposite.
This sounds like the fascism of the college campus.
Jack DelRio's "kiss my ass" rejoinder to the left cannot be improved upon.
Lots of a blather, no specifics. Nor any evidence that Left-wing sites that are "Full of hate" get banned. In other words, just more left-wing lies justifying censorship of unpopular ideas. Reddit does it, because they know Center-right types REFUSE to organize or boycott. So they get what they deserve.
I don’t understand the current generation of Liberals who are so willing to discard free speech simply to gain power. You are free to say whatever you want, and I am free to ignore it. Why is that so hard?
Nor any evidence that Left-wing sites that are "Full of hate" get banned
r/Chapotraphouse was banned. It was pretty vile.
Even before the recent banning, mods from a at least a few subreddits would shadow ban anyone who belonged to The_Donald. If someone who subscribed to TD commented in those subreddits, their comments would show to the one making the comment but not to anyone else. These weren't even political subreddits, they were for hobbies or just general discussion. It was known and it was permitted, so they can save their talk about "whether an individual piece of content is hateful or not". People were punished for membership in a group that was out of favor by those in control.
Center-right types REFUSE to organize or boycott. So they get what they deserve.
Actually we do boycott. Perhaps we should be more vocal about it.
Here is a spot on analogy for what Reddit did- it would be same as Blogger shutting down Althouse because Inga or Chuck complained to Google about the commenters and Althouse's moderation.
If you didn't like "The Donald" subReddit, you didn't have to join it, comment on it, or even look at it.
People were punished for membership in a group that was out of favor by those in control.
Thank for saying that, Mary Beth (the commenter). Up-thread some were saying "for having unpopular opinions," which is neither here nor there unless you say "unpopular to the moderators."
Here, we enjoy - because our host has deemed it so, not because she claims to be a platform - viewpoint-free moderation. Which is why I spend so very much of my time here. I wish we had more left-leaning commenters - I want to hear what they have to say, and to engage with their arguments in a place where there's no shouting down and where everybody can call out the retreats into ad hominem and other logical and argumentative fallacies.
Founder of Gab got banned by Visa. And Visa leans on any payment processors.
Also conservative provocateur, Laura Loomer, got banned by all online payment systems.
What about yelling, "It's all right, stay in your seats..." in a crowded theater that is on fire?
Reddit has plenty of hateful groups - FemaleDatingStrategy has devolved into a man-hating cesspool, where men are not even permitted to post, and are viciously turned out if discovered.
WhitePeopleTwitter and BlackPeopleTwitter are anti-white hate groups. There are also anti-Christian groups like atheism, and anti-family groups like chidfree.
You get the point. Hate is fine as long as it is directed against a conservative target.
I deleted my account a couple weeks ago. The final straw for me was ask philosophy, a subreddit I really enjoyed, began agitating for just this kind is suppression of speech that they feared or disagreed with.
As some have said, you can follow whichever groups you like, and build your own experience. You are in no danger of accidentally coming into contact with conservatism, but leftism has a way of inserting itself into everything.
Reddit has plenty of hateful groups - FemaleDatingStrategy has devolved into a man-hating cesspool, where men are not even permitted to post, and are viciously turned out if discovered.
WhitePeopleTwitter and BlackPeopleTwitter are anti-white hate groups. There are also anti-Christian groups like atheism, and anti-family groups like chidfree.
You get the point. Hate is fine as long as it is directed against a conservative target.
I deleted my account a couple weeks ago. The final straw for me was ask philosophy, a subreddit I really enjoyed, began agitating for just this kind is suppression of speech that they feared or disagreed with.
As some have said, you can follow whichever groups you like, and build your own experience. You are in no danger of accidentally coming into contact with conservatism, but leftism has a way of inserting itself into everything.
Mainstream journalism is so full of hatred for Donald Trump that some random online pro-Trump forum is like a fart in a hurricane. If we piled all the hateful tweets and FB posts and Tik-Tok videos on a yuuge balance scale the resulting whump of the multi-metric tons of Leftist hate slamming one side to the ground would catapult that little subreddit into a low outer space orbit. I’m constantly amazed at these log-eyed losers keep finding the mote in God’s eye!
The final straw for me was ask philosophy, a subreddit I really enjoyed, began agitating for just this kind is suppression of speech that they feared or disagreed with.
I haven't left reddit completely, but I have unsubscribed to some topics like when r/skeptic changed from being about skepticism to being about anti-Trump. I don't like how politics seeps into everything, even subreddits that are in no way political. It's so America-centric and seems obsessive. I believe that in the future we'll look back on this time as one of mass hysteria and shared mental illness. It will depend on whose side wins as to which side we call mentally ill. Both seems to think the other is. It doesn't give me much hope for us eventually finding common ground.
The totalitarian creep of left-wing politics into every sphere of life is terrifying. There's no escape. I try to block it out on my social media, but it's a daily effort. Everyone seems to feel compelled to mouth the same opinions, over and over, just for the sake of saying them. The purpose is not self-expression because if it were I'd hear thousands of different ideas instead of only a few.
It's like facing a horde of zombies compelled to shamble forward while mumbling the same slogans, forever.
I hate saying the same thing as everyone else. If I don't have anything to add, I stay silent. Apparently, this view is rare.
Dan,
"What about yelling, 'It's all right, stay in your seats...' in a crowded theater that is on fire?"
That's more-or-less what happened at the World Trade Center. When the Port Authority call came to Morgan Stanley, Rick Rescorla famously told them to FOAD and marched his colleagues out. (He went back to look for stragglers and was still in the building when it collapsed.)
They banned r/hatecrimehoaxes too. Seems it promoted hate by posting about hate crime reports that turned out to be hoaxes.
richlb said...
He should listen to his younger self
How true. He was right the first time: there are alternatives to speech.
As a giant of our age once said:
“ME: Look, if you're going to do what you want, I'm going to do what I want, but you're not going to like it. “HER: What's that?"
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