Althouse: "Scientists behind a Nordic study have found that keeping primary schools open during the coronavirus pandemic may not have had much bearing on contagion rates."

July 21, 2020

"Scientists behind a Nordic study have found that keeping primary schools open during the coronavirus pandemic may not have had much bearing on contagion rates."

"There was no measurable difference in the number of coronavirus cases among children in Sweden, where schools were left open, compared with neighboring Finland, where schools were shut, according to the findings."

Bloomberg reports.

87 comments:

Mark said...: I have the feeling that high schools will be hit hard while elementary schools have little issue.; 7/21/20, 7:49 AM
I Have Misplaced My Pants said...: get a grip! you are not in any danger, for the love of God! matters not to the but I’m scaaared! crowd.; 7/21/20, 7:51 AM
John Borell said...: Hence the White House Press Secretary saying follow the science.

Open the schools.; 7/21/20, 7:51 AM
wendybar said...: BINGO!! But putting infected people in Nursing homes is a death sentence....Thanks Cuomo, Murphy and Whitmer for spiking our cases because of your stupidity....; 7/21/20, 7:53 AM
Jeff Brokaw said...: I’ve never seen any data point that supports closing the schools, anywhere, ever. Another manufactured fear porn crisis.

Dats says that kids and teens are at essentially zero risk from COVID, far less than the the standard flu.

And kids’ education *will* be harmed by these cobbled-together contingency plans. As a group, there will be less learning in aggregate, and some kids will learn essentially nothing. The effects long term are devastating, especially for younger kids.

You want to close the schools, you need to start by acknowledging those two things as a starting point, so we both know you’re advocating for you own interests, not the interests of our nation’s children (we already know that, I just need transparency from these liars and fear porn peddlers).

So sick of lies and fear porn, that’s all the news is these days ...; 7/21/20, 8:04 AM
TreeJoe said...: How on earth does this compute with the data that came out of Israel?

P.s. I have 2 school age children 5 weeks away from re-entry, I follow the science closely since I literally support COVID research on the sides, and the reality is that this is what politicized and propagandized science yields. Questionable research comes out in the fog of war (against COVID) that is constantly being promoted by one side or the other as definitive evidence of their point of view, then used to drive policy, and then when competing evidence emerges very few people have the courage to do an about face or change their policies.; 7/21/20, 8:09 AM
Fernandinande said...: Funny to have an article which is comparing the rates of something, but which doesn't contain any relevant numbers at all.; 7/21/20, 8:12 AM
Temujin said...: We've also seen that there seems to be no correlation between shutting down or staying open. New York, New Jersey, and Michigan still have, by far, many more Wuhan virus deaths than Florida, Texas, and Arizona COMBINED. You would not know this listening to our breathless media or the comment by Dr. Fauci who stated that New York did it right. Huh?

Total combined Wuhan deaths to date in Florida, Texas, and Arizona: 11,987
Total Population of those states: 58.6 MM

Total combined Wuhan deaths to date in New York, New Jersey, and Michigan: 54,490
Total Population of those states: 38.6 MM; 7/21/20, 8:17 AM
gilbar said...: Who gives a sh*t?
IF kids want people to care, they Need to start paying their Union dues; 7/21/20, 8:17 AM
rcocean said...: Other countries have re-opened their schools with no problem. Why isn't that reported and addressed? Its the same old game, if it hurts Trump then we get constant comparisons to what other countries are doing, and when it hurts "The Narrative" then other countries are ignored.

There is ZERO reason to not re-open schools except the Democrats think it will hurt Trump and and teachers unions want $$$ with no work.; 7/21/20, 8:20 AM
MikeR said...: I think some of us have learned during this crisis that studies that don't follow the scientific ideals (double-blind, randomized sampling,...) are not "not quite as good". They are essentially worthless. You just can't tell what is going on. Of course the press is there to guess for you.; 7/21/20, 8:28 AM
The Cracker Emcee Refulgent said...: Holy Shit! Is school about the kids in Nordic countries? Crazy, man.; 7/21/20, 8:35 AM
Fritz said...: Fernandinande said...
Funny to have an article which is comparing the rates of something, but which doesn't contain any relevant numbers at all.

They were told there would be no math.; 7/21/20, 8:45 AM
Tim said...: Keep all the "teacher" home. Fire them and give the families the $$ for choosing their own schooling, home, parochial, etc.; 7/21/20, 8:53 AM
wendybar said...: It is hilarious in New Jersey. The kids and their parents are playing together outside in mu neighborhood...no masks. They bring their kids to Walmart which is always crowded....they are packed like sardines at the beach...but don't open schools. Cut my property taxes then.; 7/21/20, 9:14 AM
Marshall Rose said...: Time for school choice vouchers.

Let the parents asses their own risk comfort level and take the tax dollars for their children where they wish.; 7/21/20, 9:43 AM
Kai Akker said...: Jeff, who Dats?; 7/21/20, 9:47 AM
Jupiter said...: "And kids’ education *will* be harmed by these cobbled-together contingency plans. As a group, there will be less learning in aggregate, and some kids will learn essentially nothing. The effects long term are devastating, especially for younger kids."

Oh, BS. The American public schools are essentially baby-sitting services, if you're lucky. Along the way, they may teach their victims some useful mathematics and science. They will certainly imbue them with a toxic culture of feral sexuality known as "hook-up culture". They are likely to introduce them to a wide variety of drugs, many of which are addictive. The effects are, indeed, long term and devastating. Shut the damned things down.; 7/21/20, 9:47 AM
Jupiter said...: The important question is not whether the kids got sick. The important question is whether the teachers, and, even more important, the administrators, got sick.; 7/21/20, 9:48 AM
robother said...: Assuming the primary purpose of schools is to educate children. But as we all know, that is mere pretext: the primary purpose of American public schools is to generate a paycheck for unionized teachers and administrators. (The fact that 60% of American students do not achieve proficiency in 8th grade language and math sort of gives away the truth.) The spread of COVID to teachers and administrators is thus the only real concern. The Nordic study does not answer that question.; 7/21/20, 9:54 AM
Howard said...: numberz r white privlege; 7/21/20, 10:00 AM
Kirk Parker said...: "Normal to have an article which is comparing the rates of something, but which doesn't contain any relevant numbers at all."

FIFY. This is the mainstream press we are talking about here...; 7/21/20, 10:16 AM
Money Manger said...: It sounds a bit overwrought. But then again, after the issue between the NYT and Slate Star
Codex, maybe not.; 7/21/20, 10:29 AM
Jersey Fled said...: Seems like our lefty friends here are against reopening the schools and nothing is going to change their minds.

Earth to Jupiter:

Some teachers are going to get sick just like healthcare workers get sick and grocery store clerks get sick. The "one life is too many" standard is not for responsible adults.

Incidentally, the total number of healthcare workers who have died from the virus in the U.S. is 549 according to the CDC. An incredibly low number.; 7/21/20, 10:45 AM
Jersey Fled said...: Sorry, Jupiter. I thought you were being serious.; 7/21/20, 10:46 AM
Wince said...: "A Nordic study..." which reminds me.

Slightly off topic: Does anyone still use a NordicTrack Ski Trainer?

The relics don't event appear on the company's main page.

NordicTrack has relegated its Ski Trainer to the bottom of its "Strength Training" products, below Dumbbells and Speedweights.

Talk about a successful corporate reinvention!; 7/21/20, 10:47 AM
Gusty Winds said...: The Milwaukee Journal has an article that links to a letter sent to Wis Gov Evers from Teachers Union heads in Madison, Milwaukee, Green Bay, Kenosha, and Racine. They want Evers to force ALL schools to open virtually. In Southeast Wisconsin the W.O.W Counties (Waukesha, Ozaukee, Washington) are opening on campus, in-person classes after Labor Day. All have an on-line only option for parents that choose that for their children. I doubt in those areas there will be many.

The hypocrisy of the unions is apparent. It is a clear disadvantage to the Blue area, so they simply want to mandate freezing everybody. Even in Sussex, Hartford, Oconomowoc, etc…. Their letter mentions concerns over “inequity”. They’re right. In the W.O.W counties parents will be able to go to work, kids will be better off and they will be better educated.

These union heads are really sick people. Political beasts that really don’t care about educating children. They just want everyone frozen until the election. Laughably their letter states they want a “science” based approach, with is a good laugh.; 7/21/20, 11:03 AM
hstad said...: I've been saying for months that 'Face Masks" don't work. But, our so-called experts Dr. Fauci and Dr. Brix said different. The MSM need to be ask these experts about this issue. Moreover, given the laws and rules promulgated over the past several months by these experts and our elected officials, I'm wondering where they got their scientific advice. All of these scientific studies (cited below) come to the same conclusion: "...No RCT study with verified outcome shows a benefit for HCW or community members in households to wearing a mask or respirator. There is no such study. There are no exceptions. Likewise, no study exists that shows a benefit from a broad policy to wear masks in public..."

https://www.rcreader.com/commentary/masks-dont-work-covid-a-review-of-science-relevant-to-covide-19-social-policy; 7/21/20, 11:23 AM
n.n said...: "Normal to have an article which is comparing the rates of something, but which doesn't contain any relevant numbers at all."

Executive summary. It's still better than a headline, which may or may not represent the published content, and relies on readers to infer the facts.; 7/21/20, 11:35 AM
tim maguire said...: MikeR said...studies that don't follow the scientific ideals (double-blind, randomized sampling,...) are not "not quite as good". They are essentially worthless.

The double-blind study is the gold standard, but some things are simply not amenable to that approach. Sometimes, especially where humans are involved, you have to settle for case studies. They're not as good, but they are far from worthless.; 7/21/20, 11:35 AM
hstad said...: AA - LOL - I posted that yesterday when you trotted out that "teacher meme" but you saw fit to delete my comments. Probably cause I was not charitable enough with those so-called experts Dr. Fauci and Dr. Brix. I will not resort to name calling here in this response. But that's all us everyday people have left. When experts let us down and the result is major government officials like Governors make it a rule/law and creating needless law breakers based on 'fake science' that's all of us have left. Nature abhorres a void. The BLM and ANTIFA movements are not an exception, modern society and its laws have been discredited. I became a skeptic when I had to serve in Vietnam, based upon another lie. Bush (W) went to war again (Iraq) based upon a similar line. When will the MSM, Political, and Establishment lies stop? When something in that vacuum comes to fruition - so terrible that our entire way of life is brought to its knees. 'Mad Max' is around the corner unless we stop this madness - 'Nature hates a Void'.; 7/21/20, 11:36 AM
n.n said...: I've been saying for months that 'Face Masks" don't work

They have limited utility outside of a dedicated environment, and may actually serve to spread viral contagion when improperly used.; 7/21/20, 11:37 AM
n.n said...: Incidentally, the total number of healthcare workers who have died from the virus in the U.S. is 549 according to the CDC. An incredibly low number.

These are mostly excess deaths that could have been avoided if they followed their own hygienic guidelines, and would have mitigated cross-contamination in medical facilities, too.; 7/21/20, 11:39 AM
hstad said...: Blogger Wince said...
"A Nordic study..." which reminds me. Does anyone still use a NordicTrack Ski Trainer?..."7/21/20, 10:47 AM

Yes, I do and believe it or not it still works fine - use it 4 times a week. You're right the Company reinvented itself in a very difficult and fad industry. But it had to since electronics changed everything. In this age everyone has to have a screen - airplanes, ships, trains, trucks, cars and yes, exercise machines.; 7/21/20, 11:41 AM
Rick said...: Why is the left so anti-science?; 7/21/20, 11:49 AM
Jaq said...: ""There was no measurable difference in the number of coronavirus cases among children in Sweden, where schools were left open, compared with neighboring Finland, where schools were shut, according to the findings.”

Not really the students we are worried about. I read one story by a European epidemiologist who said that in Norway though, if a teacher became ill, it was publicly acknowledged and aggressive contact tracing began and the kids were all isolated, in Sweden, it was a private matter.

For some reason the powers that be want to force this issue of re-opening schools and I get the feeling that their reasoning probably closely resembles the reasoning behind encouraging the street protests, that there are "higher issues” at stake, like maybe nipping this homeschooling thing in the bud. At my age, I only have one good friend with a school age child and she feels like this period has opened her eyes to a whole new set of possibilities. The real drag that children create is that they anchor you to the school system.

BTW, Sweden’s death rate is many times that of Norway. Oh, I forgot, we were all ignoring that fact. Sorry, carry on with your politics.; 7/21/20, 11:53 AM
Jaq said...: "et a grip! you are not in any danger, for the love of God! matters not to the but I’m scaaared! crowd.”

So we hear from the “My personal interests outweigh any considerations having to do with others!” crowd.

Another Biden for POTUS message from the Althouse commentariat.; 7/21/20, 11:56 AM
Birkel said...: Tim in Vermont believes sharing this information means you want to murder people.

Shame on you, Althouse.
You are heartless.; 7/21/20, 12:01 PM
Jaq said...: "I've been saying for months that 'Face Masks" don't work.”

Where they have been studied, they work. But they don’t work when a bunch of yokels with their noses peeking out, I guess to make their noses easier to pick, or smug asswipes outright refusing to wear them are factored in. Countries that have this under control don’t have this idiot thing against masks.

I know, I know. You want things to go back to normal, even if wearing masks only cuts the risk by 20%, that day is closer, but that is too much to ask, because some moron is more worried about black helicopters and threats to her “freedom.”

I get closer ever day to voting for Biden instead of just not voting just out of a desire to spite you people. You guys have no concept of the backlash you are creating with your stupidity.; 7/21/20, 12:03 PM
Jupiter said...: "Sorry, Jupiter. I thought you were being serious."

Apology accepted, but in a way I was being serious. From the point of view of the people most strenuously objecting to reopening the schools, the question of how the kids are doing is largely irrelevant, in this context as in so many others.; 7/21/20, 12:10 PM
Kai Akker said...: The changes are coming, praise the Lord!

"Amid the pushback, [SC Gov.] McMaster announced a solution to allow working and low-income families a new option. Through the governor’s Emergency Education Relief Fund under the CARES Act, South Carolina is spending $32 million on SAFE grants. These are scholarships that will allow families with adjusted gross incomes up to 300% of the federal poverty level to send their child to a private school."

https://pjmedia.com/news-and-politics/stacey-lennox/2020/07/20/as-public-schools-dither-over-reopening-s-c-gov-mcmaster-expands-private-school-scholarships-n665658

NEAs won't go teach? Unemployment office is open, and btw, THANK YOU!; 7/21/20, 12:13 PM
Jupiter said...: "...No RCT study with verified outcome shows a benefit for HCW or community members in households to wearing a mask or respirator. There is no such study. There are no exceptions. Likewise, no study exists that shows a benefit from a broad policy to wear masks in public..."

It seems fairly clear to me that the best thing I can do for the unfortunates who earn their living serving the public in various venues is to keep my big, fat mouth shut when I am in their presence, masked or unmasked. And I try to do that, but I cannot bring myself to maintain silence when they ask me a direct question, however inane. "Did you find everything you were looking for?", for example.; 7/21/20, 12:15 PM
Drago said...: tim in vermont: "I get closer ever day to voting for Biden instead of just not voting just out of a desire to spite you people."

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

Whatever you say "Chuck".; 7/21/20, 12:54 PM
walter said...: Yes Tim,
Slapping masks on 2 and 3 year olds seems to indicate irrational overreach.
And local health authorities in low risk areas obscuring death rates and other methods suggests to some of us that much of this is bullshit.
Your ongoing attempts to shame, blame and threaten your vote for Biden is just more of the same. Go for it.; 7/21/20, 12:57 PM
Original Mike said...: Blogger Marshall Rose said..."Time for school choice vouchers. Let the parents asses their own risk comfort level and take the tax dollars for their children where they wish."

I posted this on another thread. If the government gave food assistance dollars to grocery stores, rather than individuals, and if they continued to send that money to the stores even when the stores refused to open, everyone would rightly call that insane.

Why are education dollars different?; 7/21/20, 1:13 PM
Jaq said...: "no study exists that shows a benefit from a broad policy to wear masks in public...”

That’s because it’s impossible to study what people refuse to do. Except that we know that in countries where mask wearing is uncontroversial, numbers are better.

But you see these are subtle points that the troglodytes fail to grasp.; 7/21/20, 1:17 PM
Jaq said...: "Open up but protect the vulnerable” was obviously complete bullshit, what you guys really meant was “Open up, but protect the vulnerable UNLESS, unless it causes me the slightest discomfort or inconvenience."; 7/21/20, 1:20 PM
Jaq said...: "No RCT study with verified outcome shows a benefit for HCW"

https://boston.cbslocal.com/2020/07/15/face-masks-study-health-care-workers-surgical-coronavirus-mass-general-brigham/.

What other lies are they telling you, or facts are they leaving out by using weasel words?; 7/21/20, 1:23 PM
Jaq said...: "NEAs won't go teach? Unemployment office is open, and btw, “

let me finish that comment for you. “thank you everybody, and when you vote for Biden, be sure to pull the blue lever all the way down!"; 7/21/20, 1:25 PM
walk don't run said...: The most important graph of the Covid-19 epidemic that you will never see in the media. It is worth following it daily to get a real sense of where the epidemic is heading.

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/daily-covid-deaths-per-million-7-day-average

This website has a lot of useful data but hides this graph where it is difficult to find. If you are interested bookmark it. At this point the most reliable data is deaths. Of course they can be over and understated so it is not perfect but it is more accurate than positive cases (dependent on who gets tested and the number and availability of tests). Another problem is that reporting of deaths can be delayed. Using 7 day average smooths that out.

What I like about this graph is that it controls for population since it plots the 7-day average of deaths per 1 million population of various countries. On this graph the US is the brown line and you will be surprised to see that the peak is well below the peaks of the UK and Italy. You can select countries to be plotted and you will find the US is below a lot of other countries. Currently the US deaths per million population are relatively flat but increasing marginally at 2.3 deaths per million population. That compares with a peak of just over 8 deaths per million population in mid April. When you look at this graph you see no reason for the US to panic. Deaths are down 72% from the peak and are only slightly increasing. There certainly is no spike in deaths from Covid-19.

My guess is that the new epicenters have learnt from the disastrous handling of the disease in New England and are protecting residents of nursing homes which have typically made up 50% of the deaths. In addition hospitals are now applying new protocols for treatment that are more effective. In other words targeting strategies with respect to prevention and treatment are working despite an apparent increase in prevalence that the media are gushing over. Yes America it is safe to open up provided you protect those who are most at risk.; 7/21/20, 1:27 PM
Jaq said...: The fact that the media is pushing this through publishing carefully selected factoids in carefully couched language reeks to me of the “Protests don’t spread COVID” crap we saw earlier. I don’t know why they are pushing it, but I doubt that the primary concern is public health, there has to be some kind of partisan political angle. There always is. Somebody somewhere decided that they were going to push this narrative and sent out the scribblers to cobble together the best case they could, which is this weak tea they have served up.

Either that or journalists really are that stupid. You can never rule that one out if you think that journalists get to decide what to write about on their own.; 7/21/20, 1:45 PM
Gk1 said...: Piping up as someone who is married to a high school teacher what I can attest is it can be a LOT more work on the teachers to teach online not less. My wife teaches kids with learning disabilities and has to do mounds of paper work to document each students performance even when class is in session. The whole reason for being is to prove the state of california did everything possible to educate a student, so it has to document every step of the way for this population.

With online classes its 10 times worse as this is a population that either can't concentrate for more than a few minutes at a time, parents have old or sometimes non existent computers with terrible internet connections. Another cultural problem not discussed is a good majority of hispanic parents would much prefer their kids go out and earn $$ anyway and just shrug when told Juan is not punching into his zoom classes.

Many teachers feel like they are failing their students and they are rapidly losing ground. The other thing to consider is in some areas like mine, the teaching population can be much older and actually in the risk profile with those that catch and die from covid so to be fair it's not a risk free proposition for teachers. I agree with the sentiment we need to go back to school but leave it to the communities to decide, including the teachers unions.; 7/21/20, 1:53 PM
MayBee said...: But they don’t work when a bunch of yokels with their noses peeking out, I guess to make their noses easier to pick

Talk about smug!
I've seen people of all ages and types with their noses out of their masks. Older people seem the most susceptible to this. I don't think they are doing it to pick their noses, but because that's what happens if you are wearing an ill-fitting mask, or if you feel like you can't breathe, or if your glasses keep fogging up.

There needs to be a dose of reality here. We have never gotten 100% compliance in anything, and we aren't going to get it in mask wearing, let along in proper mask wearing. You are going to drive yourself crazy hating the masses for not complying.
Speed limits, drug use, healthy eating, going to school -- never 100% compliance. It isn't going to happen for masks, either.; 7/21/20, 2:00 PM
Vonnegan said...: Kai Akker, I have a cousin who teaches in public school in SC and she is insanely angry about what McMaster did. She keeps posting on Facebook about how he doesn't support public school teachers. I love McMaster's idea and I think more states should be doing stuff like this - but I've kept my mouth shut on Facebook so far.

ACLJ is also willing to sue districts who won't reopen in person. More!; 7/21/20, 2:24 PM
Rick said...: tim in vermont said...
"Open up but protect the vulnerable” was obviously complete bullshit,

As are indefinite lockdowns. You can identify who is commenting in bad faith by noting they refuse to themselves the standards they apply to others.; 7/21/20, 2:34 PM
Jaq said...: "You are going to drive yourself crazy hating the masses for not complying. “

My point is that it is impossible to do a study on public health impact of mask wearing because of the kinds of morons I cited above that we all have seen, and so it is dishonest to offer that as “proof" that masks don’t work. One of the reasons I like this blog so much is that it is about seeing through the bullshit and spin, and there is a lot of bullshit and spin. Anybody who opposes the lockdowns should be embarrassed to cite Sweden, which has been a charnel house, with Norway, which has done an excellent job.

Personally, if I see more than the very occasional person in a store not wearing a mask, I cross that store of my list of places that I shop. I have long since given up on the human race as a whole. I drive an extra 20 mins to get to a town that requires shoppers to wear masks. I think of that line from Mary Poppins when I think of humans “Although I adore them individually, believe that as a group they’re rather stupid.; 7/21/20, 2:36 PM
Jaq said...: "On this graph the US is the brown line and you will be surprised to see that the peak is well below the peaks of the UK and Italy.”

Only if you count on the MSM for COVID news.; 7/21/20, 2:38 PM
Jaq said...: "Your ongoing attempts to shame, blame and threaten your vote for Biden is just more of the same. Go for it.”

I am not threatening. I am not attempting to shame or blame. I am pointing out that this is the inevitable result of the many ridiculous and uncaring comments I read here. If I feel it, and many of you are aware that I have been a strong supporter of Trump for a long time, if this is how I feel, imagine the undecideds, how they feel. But go ahead with your “fuck the world, I don’t want to wear a mask routine” I can’t stop you. I certainly harbor no delusions that you would ever feel any shame.

You guys are simply wrong on masks and I can’t understand why you are falling for this clickbait agitprop so easily. Why do you even read this blog if you are not interested in critical thinking and careful analysis of texts?; 7/21/20, 2:46 PM
JAORE said...: In a classroom setting the one teacher (plus aids) per (say) 25 kids is reasonable. In video teaching why limit yourself to 25 kids per teacher. Why not 50, or 100or 200?

If the teachers unions actually felt the distance teaching would be accomplished with, say,one GOOD teacher per 200 computer screens, and the others would be fired, I'd wager they'd demand immediate reopening of classrooms.; 7/21/20, 2:56 PM
walter said...: "Why do you even read this blog if you are not interested in critical thinking and careful analysis of texts?"
What a smug a-hole you are.; 7/21/20, 3:19 PM
Jim at said...: “My personal interests outweigh any considerations having to do with others!”

Your health and safety isn't my fucking responsibility, Tim. It's yours.
How many times do you need to be told that?; 7/21/20, 3:34 PM
narciso said...: all of the media, that they shove in our face, is clickbait, occasionally there's one bit that's true, that's because the algorithm misses it,; 7/21/20, 3:54 PM
Original Mike said...: "Whatever you say "Chuck"."

'Noseless' might be more apt. Or perhaps 'Tycho'.; 7/21/20, 4:13 PM
I'm Full of Soup said...: COVID 19 DEATHS PER MILLION OF POPULATION AS OF 7/21/20:

• 433 - USA - all states
• 557 – Pennsylvania – DEM governor
• 789 – Delaware – DEM governor
• 1,769 – New Jersey – DEM governor
• 1,666 - New York – DEM Governor
• 1,232 – Connecticut – DEM governor
• 1,223 – Massachusetts – REPUB governor
• 1,312 – Total for PA, DE, NJ, NY, CT & MA

• 268 – USA excluding the six states listed above

• 48% of deaths in USA were from the six states listed above. There have been 143,012 deaths in USA to date and 74,271 of those were from the six states listed above.; 7/21/20, 4:24 PM
RobinGoodfellow said...: It’s a shame about the narrative.; 7/21/20, 4:28 PM
RobinGoodfellow said...: Why is the left so anti-science?

7/21/20, 11:49 AM
Blogger tim in vermont said...
""There was no measurable difference in the number of coronavirus cases among children in Sweden, where schools were left open, compared with neighboring Finland, where schools were shut, according to the findings.”

Not really the students we are worried about.

I guess I am an “essential worker”. I haven’t missed one day of work due to Flu Manchu.

Is my health any less important than the health of teachers? What about grocery store employees?

If a teacher is at risk, he can stay home. For people under—what?—50, the risk is minimal.; 7/21/20, 4:36 PM
Birkel said...: I could not give one less damn who Tim in Vermont decides has earned his presidential vote.

If Vermont is close enough that one vote matters Trump has already won.; 7/21/20, 5:21 PM
effinayright said...: tim in vermont said...
"On this graph the US is the brown line and you will be surprised to see that the peak is well below the peaks of the UK and Italy.”

Only if you count on the MSM for COVID news.
**************

Oh. So the MSM is MINIMIZING covid deaths to help Trump, is it..?

And I guess you miss that 2 deaths-per-million is an EXTREMELY low stat. So...Why all this emotional bedwetting?; 7/21/20, 6:33 PM
Drago said...: tim in vermont: "You guys are simply wrong on masks and I can’t understand why you are falling for this clickbait agitprop so easily."

I'm sorry the failure to realize 2.2 million deaths is happening to you.

Please tell us more about clickbait agitprop.....as you advocate for Biden and marxist policies.

Should be lit.; 7/21/20, 6:34 PM
Kai Akker said...: ---Kai Akker, I have a cousin who teaches in public school in SC and she is insanely angry about what McMaster did. [Vonnegan]

Angry, hence she sees the risk to the monopoly. This is the time when change has to occur, so I hope more governors and legislators work to open this field up. Two generations of imbeciles is enough.; 7/21/20, 7:18 PM
Kai Akker said...: ---The other thing to consider is in some areas like mine, the teaching population can be much older and actually in the risk profile with those that catch and die from covid so to be fair it's not a risk free proposition for teachers. [Gk1]

Yes. But this is changing everyone's lives. If the older teachers feel unsafe in the classroom, they may have to retire early. It's not a fair deal; but building the school systems around the teachers' priorities has been a disaster. This unexpected event is changing a lot of things and schools are at least one that could be made to benefit from that.; 7/21/20, 7:27 PM
Gk1 said...: "Yes. But this is changing everyone's lives. If the older teachers feel unsafe in the classroom, they may have to retire early." That's a little glib isn't it? Granted covid has been hyped beyond all reason but people here are legitimately spooked.

You have to believe me they don't like teaching online as its clear the kids are being short changed and no ones happy. They just fear outbreaks that may not effect the kids much but wipe out the teachers.

Living in Kalifornia its not like the Governor is going to incentivize schools reopening sooner rather than later anyway. The schools here are a trainwreck even without this event.

I would like to see it left to communities to decide when and how to open and fervently hope our Gov. stays the fuck out of it as he hasn't a clue.; 7/21/20, 8:00 PM
Kai Akker said...: ---- That's a little glib isn't it?

No, it is not in the least glib, Gk1. Older teachers may have to take early retirement. That's life. We play the hand we are dealt. Their jobs are not guaranteed throughout any and all conditions, conflicts, and circumstances.; 7/21/20, 8:23 PM
Jaq said...: You will have to do bettter than to put words in my mouth Drago.; 7/21/20, 9:43 PM
Nichevo said...: Birkel said...
I could not give one less damn who Tim in Vermont decides has earned his presidential vote.

If Vermont is close enough that one vote matters Trump has already won.

7/21/20, 5:21 PM

Tim I think votes in FL now.

Tim, you truly need to reconceptualize your approach to this issue. I'm sorry you have been affected by this disease personally, but your reaction reminds one of Cindy Sheehan, the sacred cow Gold Star Mom for Iraq. Please don't go to Venezuela and screw Hugo Chavez, he's long dead and would stink.

Keep your eyes on the prize. The D establishment and all its works are your enemy, mine, and mankind's. Who sent sick seniors to nursing homes with body bags? Team D. Who shat on HCQ therapy? Democrats. Who closes churches and opens marijuana stores, promotes Antifa protests and threatens the other side with nuclear weapons? Them. The people you are making noises like you would vote for them.

You owe PDT your vote and support in every forum you can find. If you're the man I think you are.

I'm sorry you have experienced hostility and frustration here -

I should also say, I'm sorry for your loss

- but you haven't been an angel about it either. This is not a place to go to get your ass kissed, never has been.

Your vote holds in the balance the life or death of the Republic. I refuse to believe that you would be such a sulky pissant as to choose death. That's a compliment, by the way.; 7/21/20, 10:00 PM
Jaq said...: Talk about bedwetters. Anybody points out the fallacies in you guys’ ... well let’s charitably call it ‘thinking,' and you guys freak out, rather than countering with reasoned arguments. What a shock.

"Your health and safety isn't my fucking responsibility, Tim. It's yours.
How many times do you need to be told that?”

These are the kinds of questions that elections are meant to decide. Is requiring a man to wear a mask to slow a pandemic a bridge too far? Is wearing a mask such a heinous infringement of a free man’s human rights that it is simply beyond the pale to make this seemingly simple minor request? You have your self-centered values. I have different values. You can’t “tell me” my values. My values say that if there is some minor thing I can do to help protect the health of the community, I will do it. Yours are different.

Incidentally, I don’t really have strong opinions about opening schools or not, as long as older teachers are somehow accommodated though lots of children live with vulnerable people at home, which is also problematic. My objection is to the ridiculous arguments made comparing Sweden’s disastrous policy choices with Norway’s favorably while ignoring that Sweden has been a disaster COVID wise. But as long as the article doesn’t disturb your prejudices, it doesn’t matter how shoddy the arguments are, does it?; 7/21/20, 10:02 PM
Rick said...: That's a little glib isn't it?

That's the same choice everyone else faces. Why do teachers think other people should bear the risk of the their own choices?; 7/21/20, 10:10 PM
Jaq said...: "What a smug a-hole you are.”

I will file you under “not interested in critical thinking”.

So many of you seem proud to say that you read this site for the comments, likely because the comment echo chamber doesn’t challenge your prejudices in any way. And if somebody does challenge your prejudices, just call them a "smug asshole” and that will refute all uncomfortable points that person might make. Or you could put words into his mouth and have fun knocking down straw men.; 7/21/20, 10:18 PM
Original Mike said...: "We play the hand we are dealt."

I think our fundamental problem is a whole generation of children have been raised thinking there's a way around that.; 7/21/20, 10:59 PM
walter said...: Willing to bet the US isn't the only country to evaluate the prospects of elevated risk teachers vs minimally vectored students...; 7/21/20, 11:20 PM
gadfly said...: How silly it is to compare the highly socialistic, tightly-controlled societies of Scandinavia to America's looser, more free-wheeling environment. In classrooms, for example, Nordic students remain in one room and teachers move between classrooms. That cuts way down on disease exposure.

Unless Americans can be convinced that we have a concept problem, our kids will continue to rub up against each other every hour on the hour.; 7/21/20, 11:37 PM
Jaq said...: "This is not a place to go to get your ass kissed, never has been.”

This is very true. Maybe I am not one of the commenters who needs to hear this. I call ‘em like I see ‘em. What I see is a bunch of children fetishizing a piece of cloth they are asked to wear over their nose and mouth for a time. I back up my opinion with logic and evidence. I thought that this was not a place where bullshit arguments that skirt inconvenient facts carried the day, but I was wrong about that.

I think you guys are underestimating the hostility that your childish tantrums on masks is embiggening. It’s not just me. I hear it all the time from people who will go off on a rant about it at the slightest invitation. You can call it ‘concern trolling’ if you like, but I would think that my right wing bona fides should be beyond question with anybody who has read my comments here for years. It’s almost like you guys care so little about the election that you can prioritize some stupid fear of a piece of cloth over it.; 7/22/20, 6:16 AM
MayBee said...: My point is that it is impossible to do a study on public health impact of mask wearing because of the kinds of morons I cited above that we all have seen, and so it is dishonest to offer that as “proof" that masks don’t work

If that was your point, you could have left out the nose picking comments. Especially when you are bemoaning how awful you see Trump supporters being.
Also, this goes both ways. Is there anywhere that has universal compliance with mask wearing? I am asking sincerely. I know in Japan sick people tend to wear masks, but I don't believe there was a mask requirement and I also don't believe even there you would get 100% compliance. Japan is very different from the US in many ways, not just masks.
Hong Kong is a strange anomaly. Very little COVID, large gatherings, little masking.

So....we don't really know what masking will do. We don't have "proof". And I wear mine, and you wear yours, and we do our best. You drive out of your way to be among mask wearers, and that is probably good since you have underlying conditions. But you also know the drive there isn't "safe". You also don't know if the mask wearers washed their hands the last time they coughed, or if they are going to pull it down to talk. On and on.

And as we saw with the lockdowns, we need some people who are going to push back on government mandates. Even if we think they are bullheaded. It's in our blood as Americans to not just comply with what the government tells us to do, and that's who we are. Left, right and center. So I'm happy to see people asking, "Are masks really the thing that we need to get over this pandemic?" Maybe they are. To me, it makes little sense that we can have mass demonstrations in the streets - as long as some of the people wear masks!! But we can't open schools. To me, it feels like masks are the things Governors are holding on to to give them an excuse to allow some businesses to open after they shut everything down.

But as I said, I wear my mask when I'm out, because it my state its the only way we are going to get through this, legally if not health-wise.; 7/22/20, 6:36 AM
MayBee said...: OK, I have found some answers to my question about countries making masking mandatory.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jul/20/global-coronavirus-report-masks-made-mandatory-in-hong-kong-france-and-melbourne

Few have mandatory masking throughout the country- some have it for public transport, some have it indoors, some are imposing fines. For many countries, it is new. So as far as evidence that this is the big thing to save us....that information isn't available either.
So....do we agree with fining a poor person the equivalent of France's fine ($154) for not wearing a mask? Should we send the Feds out in vans to ticket people?

Are any of these places having 100% compliance? If they do, what are they doing to get it? Does anyone think we will have it? Or is not wearing a mask just a new reason to hate people you think are the "other"?; 7/22/20, 7:41 AM
hstad said...: tim in vermont: "You guys are simply wrong on masks and I can’t understand why you are falling for this clickbait agitprop so easily."

Nice try, "tim in vermont" until you post countervailing studies, which are credible, not by a few people, versus what I posted, yours is just an opinion. Willing to be convinced, but my friend you have a mountain to climb. Moreover, once your on top of your mountain, the valley below has changed are your argument became pointless. You seem to use a lot of circular [vacuous] arguments which result in you painting yourself in the corner.; 7/22/20, 1:11 PM
hstad said...: 7/22/20, 6:36 AM
Blogger MayBee said...
So as far as evidence that this is the big thing to save us....that information isn't available either...? 7/22/20, 7:41 AM

Beg to differ, the information is available but it says the opposite (no impact) which gives the Liberals/Leftists a conniption because they view this pandemic as a one time 'control' opportunity which only comes along in every 2 - 3 decades. They want to make hay. BTW, "Maybee" the studies on Masks go back many years and decades - this is not the first time we've had problems. But it's the first time we've had a combination of a fraud MSM pushing against anything our national leaders like - "Orange Man Bad". That's why masks have become an issue. Plus our state and local leaders are little despots in waiting telling us to do as they say not as they do. This article has numerous reputable studies over the decades on masks - just a short list. There are thousands more going back decades +.

https://www.rcreader.com/commentary/masks-dont-work-covid-a-review-of-science-relevant-to-covide-19-social-policy; 7/22/20, 1:21 PM
Nichevo said...: This is very true. Maybe I am not one of the commenters who needs to hear this. I call ‘em like I see ‘em. What I see is a bunch of children fetishizing a piece of cloth they are asked to wear over their nose and mouth for a time.

Tim, you just don't see yourself. It is you who are fetishizing the masks. (Shunning them is the opposite.) They may work, they may not work, they may work a little but not much, and who knows, in some cases they may do more harm than good, especially if "worn wrong" which may certainly happen as there are no standards.

We swim in ignorance. People are just quoting and throwing studies around like "brickbats" to impose their views on other people. "Do what I say!"

Nobody is improving masks. You want a rational incentive to wear masks, Tim? Devise a regime that protects the wearer 70% or 95%, not just his audience. Not even thought of. But I'm not sick, so the only sensible reason for me to wear one (other than doing what you or Cuomo want) is to protect myself. That's not on offer. Why is that not on offer, Tim?

BTW I'm not your problem. I do mask as appropriate (not out in the open by myself socially distant), I'm not defiant about it at stores, but I am skeptical and it increases my contempt for the system. It verges on superstition.

But if it makes you feel better, I do it, and maybe making YOU feel better is the highest good it achieves.

Now kindly fucking vote for Trump, OK?; 7/22/20, 2:45 PM