From Trump's "Executive Order on Building and Rebuilding Monuments to American Heroes."
These realistic statues must be of "historically significant Americans" and "Americans" is deemed to include those who "lived prior to or during the American Revolution and were not American citizens, but who made substantive historical contributions to the discovery, development, or independence of the future United States." In that category, he names Christopher Columbus, Junipero Serra, and the Marquis de La Fayette.
There's a list of the kinds of people who are deemed to "have contributed positively to America." The list includes "opponents of national socialism or international socialism" — a phrase that must rankle the hell out of present-day American socialists — e.g., Bernie Sanders. It implies that no socialist can be among the heroes — only opponents of socialism. What about James Baldwin? Woody Guthrie? Noam Chomsky? W.E.B. Du Bois? Kurt Vonnegut? Madalyn Murray O'Hair? Gloria Steinem? Pete Seeger? Margaret Sanger? Paul Robeson? Dorothy Parker?
Who are your heroes? Who are mine? I tend to eschew idolatry, but if we're going to make a list of American heroes, I want the left wing represented.
And speaking of idolatry, is anyone talking about the impact of this sculpture garden on people who have a strong moral or religious opposition to statues? I'm thinking in particular of Muslims. From the Wikipedia article, "Aniconism in Islam":
Aniconism is the avoidance of images of sentient beings in some forms of Islamic art. Islamic aniconism stems in part from the prohibition of idolatry and in part from the belief that creation of living forms is God's prerogative. Although the Quran does not explicitly prohibit visual representation of any living being, it uses the word musawwir (maker of forms, artist) as an epithet of God. The corpus of hadith (sayings attributed to the Islamic prophet Muhammad) contains more explicit prohibitions of images of living beings, challenging painters [who] "breathe life" into their images and threatening them with punishment on the Day of Judgment....Note that Trump's requirement that the statues be "lifelike or realistic" mandates the very quality that is the problem for Muslims (who have traditionally sought ways to depict human beings without competing with God, the maker of forms).
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So, no Muslims will be among the idols. Problem fixed.
Maybe they can relocate the one of Frederick Douglass that was pulled down in NY to the statuary park.
There are a lot of tweets guessing that this was the work of Trump supporters, but I'm leaning towards thinking it was the group that pulled down multiple statues instead of the one that pulled down none. Besides, all the Trump supporters I know also like Douglass. If they were going to pull down a statue in a tit-for-tat move, I think they'd pick a different target.
Pete Seeger?
Nope. My NY born wife (Dutchess County) swears that NYC hot dogs never tasted right after Pete got them to clean up the Hudson River.
Pete sings well for an unrepentant Stalinist.
It’ll be our great great grandchildren seeing the first shovel of dirt turned. Yawn.
Plus almost no federal money will be used, if it ever get built.
This is just lovely trolling.
-XC
PS - our WWII memorial was dedicated in 2004. Subtext 1945 and you get 59 years. The actual kickoff of the last effort was (IIRC) 1985. So 19 years on the last attempt. And this was before winning a war against fascism was “problematic.”
Just red meat for the rubes. Nothing will ever happen. Although it will happen faster than the wall.
I like the current list. George Patton and John Wayne? What's not to love?
However, as Althouse points out, every good wholesome American institution is co-opted by the left, and destroyed from within.
Good for her to state outright what team she's on.
See? I said it was “How Trump lost me”.
The park is a dumb idea but it’s also small potatoes, and it’s not clear it’s ever going to really happen.
"...I want the left-wing represented."
They are. Lot of statues everywhere. And they're still tearing them down. We should have a 'left-wing heroes' park, where they can tear down all of their 'heroes' just like now.
"I want the left wing represented."
Like, who? Any heroic leftist? Any hero who contributed "positively" to America?
Note that Trump's requirement that the statues be "lifelike or realistic" mandates the very quality that is the problem for Muslims (who have traditionally sought ways to depict human beings without competing with God, the maker of forms.
That's worth noting in Riyadh or Tehran, not here. Well possibly in Madison.
Literally every single "socialist hero" you suggested was a literal monster. At least half of them explicitly supported the Soviet Union that killed more people than Hitler. Margaret Sanger, FFS? Do you have even the slightest notion of her motivations?
Your list is like suggesting a slate of statues honoring actual slave holding, vocally slave supporting confederates for an exhibit of abolitionist heroes.
Socialists want to enslave and make you poor.
They cannot be heroes.
Just wait. Buy the thyme this hall of heros gets funded, the Dems will be in charge and will make it a BLM Monument with the biggest statue of Barry Hussein O'bama the first Muslim Black-Irish President
Althouse: “What about James Baldwin? Woody Guthrie? Noam Chomsky? W.E.B. Du Bois? Kurt Vonnegut? Madalyn Murray O'Hair? Gloria Steinem? Pete Seeger? Margaret Sanger? Paul Robeson? Dorothy Parker?” What about them? Did they risk their lives or fortunes for the Republic or even for the common good?
More Althouse: “I tend to eschew idolatry, but if we're going to make a list of American heroes, I want the left wing represented.” Many idolators, even retired professors, are unaware of their idolatry. We learn that as Christians for whom idolatry has consequences. The left wing generates seditionists, socialists, Marxists and communists, not heroes.
“What about James Baldwin? Woody Guthrie? Noam Chomsky? W.E.B. Du Bois? Kurt Vonnegut? Madalyn Murray O'Hair? Gloria Steinem? Pete Seeger? Margaret Sanger? Paul Robeson? Dorothy Parker?”
Not sure I understand your question.
Jk. Of course I understand it. But what about them? Where’s the obligation to include (remarkably dated, in the examples you give) Lefty icons? When something is done for political purposes, whoever holds the reins determines the politics.
Regardless, I don’t think Trump is remotely serious about this. Once again he’s highlighting a distinction in values, secure in the knowledge that Progs will have a spaz and help him drive his point home.
If i'm following your argument, the presence of even one Muslim in the population of the USA means that no state or local or federal governmental entity can erect or maintain any representational statuary, since that violates the First Amendment Establishment Clause? This seems shocking, but I suppose the Christmas creche cases might be cited in support. Diversity is our strength! All state-supported representational art must go! (Though I suspect the Muslims would be willing to make an exception for Piss Christ.)
"Who are your heroes? Who are mine? I tend to eschew idolatry, but if we're going to make a list of American heroes, I want the left wing represented."
Sure. How about Julius and Ethel Rosenberg? Bill Ayers and Bernadette Dorn? Angela Davis? Assata Shakur?
Federal art contest? Duck stamps. First thing they do with every submission is submit the painting to ornithologists who determine if the animal is depicted properly - color, proper number of wing feathers, etc. This will apparently be similar in that regard - no symbolic presentations.
https://www.fws.gov/birds/get-involved/duck-stamp/duck-stamp-contest-and-event-information.php
"It implies that no socialist can be among the heroes — only opponents of socialism."
It doesn't say that. I read it as recognizing that leftists on these committees will immediately start trashing opponents of socialism as fascists, racists or whatever they come up with next.
Again, though, it should be out in the country. 30 foot statues.
"What about James Baldwin? Woody Guthrie? Noam Chomsky? W.E.B. Du Bois? Kurt Vonnegut? Madalyn Murray O'Hair? Gloria Steinem? Pete Seeger? Margaret Sanger? Paul Robeson? Dorothy Parker?"
Many (most?) of the above either hated America or hated our way of life that has done more to lift people out of poverty than anything else in the history of the world. The natural order of man is poverty, misery, and death. This country has gone a long way toward putting a dent in that. People (even those listed above) should try to show a little gratitude and humility.
Socialism (along with big brothers Marxism and communism) is pure evil, and I will not get into a discussion of socialism in Denmark or Sweden as Bernie has pivoted to recently. Want a statue of a socialist? Move to a socialist country.
Are you a Muslim who doesn't want any statues? Move to a predominantly Muslim country.
I'm well and truly sick of the 'all cultures have value' bullshit. Some cultures are better than others. Some are more valuable than others. All men might be created equal but I could never run a 4.2 40, nor am I Hollywood leading man material. I've gotten over it.
It's a plan to get riots out of the cities and into nearby wastelands.
As the statuesque Blogger We demand a life size Ann Althouse of Madison whose Blog launched ten thousand comments.
Muslims.
As Boris Karloff said in Bedlam, "They have their world and we have ours."
Disneyland and Disney World already have the Hall of Presidents. I understand the statues are uncannily lifelike.
"This is just lovely trolling."
I enjoy it, of course, but in view of the 19th Amendment, we deplorables do have to consider the feelings of the trollees, as Althouse's "I want the left wing represented" illustrates.
"I tend to eschew idolatry"
What about Bob?
That list of names included by Althouse would be a good one of people to exclude.
I might be willing to include Eugene V Debs who was imprisoned by Wilson.
“... if we're going to make a list of American heroes, I want the left wing represented.”
You’re Wright. Both Wilbur and Orville should have statues.
National Socialism and International Socialism rules out Communists and Nazis. I don't think this restriction necessarily forbids including someone like De Bois, who may have been socialist but whose contributions are unrelated to his socialism.
Why would this idol park honor Noam Chomsky, Kurt Vonnegut, Pete Seger or most of the other people on your list?
RIP Charlie Daniels.....
Pete Seeger? The child of capitalists who unabashedly ripped off real Africans for his version of "The Lion Sleeps Tonight." Mark Steyn details the shenanigans that ensued and how the poor Africans got screwed.
https://www.steynonline.com/9379/the-lion-sleeps-tonight
Just so trump is the tallest I’m ok with it.
How about some statues for ordinary Americans who set an example by doing the right thing in their lives? Like the Vietnamese immigrant woman who cuts my hair? She came here about 20 years ago with two very young girls and a husband who left her soon after they arrived in America. The two girls are now college grads; one is a Physician's Assistant and the other is a Chemical Engineer and they are helping their mother buy a home.
I think this EO is reactive, half-baked, and lame. A knee-jerk "garden of heroes" that hews so closely to one faction's sensibilities at one point in time, in the middle of a very contentious debate about the nature and values of our society, is counter productive.
This kind of thing is Trump at his worst. Ill-considered, pandering, and divisive. I'd still rather Trump than Clinton, but he's not without some obvious and harmful faults.
Beijing Boy: "Just red meat for the rubes. Nothing will ever happen. Although it will happen faster than the wall."
Here's just one link (there are others) that show the wall being constructed along with an interactive map showing what has been completed to date. Live feeds can also be pulled up to watch the wall being built. So you can actually see what is going on.....
https://www.cbp.gov/border-security/along-us-borders/border-wall-system
....or you can just read ARM at Althouse feeding you whatever the latest talking points of Beijing happen to be.
ARM is still reeling from the truth emerging just last week that the ChiComs and the WHO have been lying to the world since October about what info the ChiCom's shared with world health experts and when.
You will recall ARM spent about 6 months praising the communist totalitarian government for their "openness" and "transparency"....which was at the same time ARM claimed the ChiCom's had never mistreated any Uyghur's.
I have to admit, even I was surprised at how vehement and passionate ARM's defense of the ChiCom's treatment of Uyghurs in their concentration/reeeducation prison camps was.
ARM's defense of that treatment was almost...........gleeful.
I know that it would not be tasteful to have nudes. But, for some reason that seems like it could be fun and impactful, imho.
Anywho I can see that it’s probably not going to fly to have Washington (or anyone else) naked.
But w/ clothes on the outside it is necessary to give definition to tits, asses and cocks. For example, we don’t want the dudes to be Kens.
Assuming there’s not a solid record re sizes re privates, how about putting in huge bulges in pants and shirts, for guys and gals, respectively?
Why not have an American hero w/ a huge cock that massively fills out the extra space in one pant leg as it restfully reaches halfway to the knee?
Also, the dude statues should have really big hands. Obviously.
For the gals, in addition to tits, a lot of consideration will need to go into asses. What to do? The current trend is more toward thick than it has been. But, just because the olden days didn’t have the peach emoji that doesn’t mean that gals didn’t have junk in the trunk. So we should represent that. Also, how tightly fitted can the clothes be? It’d be nice to get some smoke-shows in the statue park.
Anywho, I’m more concerned w/ the overall aesthetics rather than the individuals who will be in the statute park.
Hey Ann, can't you let the good guys win one every once in a while?
Some on the right say you cannot judge the merits of a man using today's standards. I feel this is misguided, and is capitulation on a certain level.
On that note, what present day person is worthy of a statue to the left?
I need a name.
"a list of American heroes, I want the left wing represented."
Jefferson and FDR were Democrats. Abe and TR were GOP. Both sides of American loving people represented. American haters and enemies?! Screw them. Let the haters and traitors put up their own damn statues. Lots of confederates like Robert E Lee loved America. Before and after the war. Fought in battle for America. If they aren't fit to be honored, how in the H E L L are haters and traitors fit to be honored?
I want the left wing represented.
How about that dead woman on the freeway in Seattle??
If Black Lives Matter, why in God's name would you include Margaret Sanger?
No socialists can be among the heroes. Except for Woody Guthrie, Good. Nobody would go.
Noam Chomsky? - Lying lunatic
Madalyn Murray O'Hair? - Insane atheist
Gloria Steinem? - Complete hypocrite
Margaret Sanger? - Should the park honor eugenicists?
And speaking of idolatry, is anyone talking about the impact of this sculpture garden on people who have a strong moral or religious opposition to statues?
Who cares???
This is not a religious park. No one is worshiping these proposed statues or proposing that people attach religious significance to them.
If Muslims are offended by visual representations of living people in a secular setting, that is just too effing bad. Better go blind then.
Each religion is allowed to worship in their own way...and not allowed to force their preferences onto other religions. Mind their own business.
However, this is park is not a religion.
The major civilizations conflict on some essential ideas, and statuary is one of those. A prohibition on statues to satisfy Islam would basically be theocratic. It's the government of a pluralistic society, and not any religion, that is establishing this statue garden.
When the dems get into office, they will put up statues of their socialist heroes. Whitman would smile.
"What about James Baldwin? Woody Guthrie? Noam Chomsky? W.E.B. Du Bois? Kurt Vonnegut? Madalyn Murray O'Hair? Gloria Steinem? Pete Seeger? Margaret Sanger? Paul Robeson? Dorothy Parker?"
Nope. Although I can admire certain works of art produced by socialists, I can't think of someone as a hero who is pointing a gun at my head, or ennabling those who do. Instead, get a copy of Jim Powell's THE TRIUMPH OF LIBERTY and create monuments to the people whose biographiesappear in that book.
There’s a lot of Muslim countries in the world for those here who don’t like our lifestyle and culture. The door swings out.
The only time I actively contradicted a professor was when she praised Noah Chomsky's "descriptive grammar." I pointed out how insulting it was to suggest that there were people who couldn't learn to speak and write properly and that therefore Standard English shouldn't be taught.
I nominate Colin Kaepernick.
How about left-wingers who were against illegal immigration, like Cesar Chavez and Barbara Jordan?
Otherwise, the leftists already have their statue parks, in numerous countries including the U.S.: "The Memorial to Victims of Communism."
"a list of American heroes, I want the left wing represented."
Let's not forget Julius and Ethel Rosenberg. No other leftists had such a profound affect on America.
Let's get Alger Hiss in the park as well. And for modern leftism to be represented, I'm torn between Alyssa Milano and Kathy Griffith.
Pete Seeger was an unapologetic Stalinist until the day he died. By all means, include members of the Left. But can we include only those who loved America and sought to improve on its faults, and exclude those who sought to replicate the horrors of the Soviet Union? Ann, you refused to vote for Reagan because you feared the outcome of his election. 40 years later you've expressed no reconsideration of his presidency or your foolish concerns. What would America look like if Seeger had his way? Would you have any concerns then?
"Did they risk their lives or fortunes for the Republic or even for the common good?"
Agree. Heroes are people who really hung it out there. Fighters and decision makers. Artistes who faced criticism!! are not quite the same thing.
Agree with Mike K about Debs too.
We can relocate existing statues to help fill the new park re great American influencers:
https://www.thedailybeast.com/trump-camp-vows-to-protect-brazils-most-iconic-statue-from-left-wing-mobs?ref=scroll
"Did they risk their lives or fortunes for the Republic or even for the common good?"
Agree. Heroes are people who really hung it out there. Fighters and decision makers. Artistes who faced criticism!! are not quite the same thing.
Agree with Mike K about Debs too.
Ah, Margaret Sanger. If her ghost were to join us today and see what is going on, she would have a wonderful told-you-so moment where she would berate us for not eliminating this problem earlier by exterminating all the black people. Her views were quite similar to Hitler, except Hitler was in too much of a hurry. It was much more civilized to simply stop them from breeding.
It is hard to come up with a prominent American who is less representative of American ideals both now and in the past. At least Woodrow Wilson for all his blatant and unrepentant racism was an American patriot and wanted to bring about world peace. Sanger was all about death.
And I say this as someone who, if either Hitler or Sanger had their way, would probably have never been born.
What about James Baldwin? Woody Guthrie? Noam Chomsky? W.E.B. Du Bois? Kurt Vonnegut? Madalyn Murray O'Hair? Gloria Steinem? Pete Seeger? Margaret Sanger? Paul Robeson? Dorothy Parker?
Interesting how American socialists were uniformly "anti-fascist" until Hitler and Stalin jointly invaded and annexed Poland, the overt act of aggression that forced Great Britain and France to declare war against Germany. From September 1939 until the third week of June 1941, our native commies were as isolationist as the most rabid America Firsters. The Daily Worker routinely damned Roosevelt as a traitor and imperialist for his measures to support the British war effort. But something happened on 22 June 1941 which made them spin their heads around to "anti-fascism" once again.
Socialists cannot be American heroes — none of them. Socialists are like Satanists, we must tolerate them because our foundational principles demand it. However, no foundational principle demands we honor them.
Socialists are a species of True Believer, along with communists, National Socialists, fascists, phalangists, and all theocrats. They are all too goddamned certain of the truth of propositions outside the bounds of empirical reasoning.
Isn’t Chomsky Canadian anyway?
How about a Girl Scout selling a box of cookies to her abortion provider?
Are you seriously think we should not build something because there is some minuscule number of people opposed? If that is your stance nothing, anywhere should ever be built.
After my snark......I realize our hostess makes a good point.
Are there any left wing heroes.....heroines? I don't think so.
We would be making monuments to good-think, and good-think is ephemeral.
Dopey idea if it doesn't include Derek Jeter and Mariano Rivera.
- krumhorn
there is a statue of mohammed in the law givers dais, right,
The Hall of Fame for Great Americans, in a pavilion designed by Stanford White at the turn of the prior century, contains bronze busts based on nominations anyone can make. It sits in University Heights, The Bronx, about a mile and a half from where Trump attended college for two years. The busts included Robert E Lee and Stonewall Jackson until Gov. Cuomo ordered them removed three years ago. But they still include Woodrow Wilson, Teddy Roosevelt and Stephen Foster. Last round of inductions at the bicentennial and those busts have not been executed. For some reason, Louis Brandeis's bust also not yet executed. The foundation is basically out of money. Too bad Trump can't revive it.
During the speech Trump suggested Louis Armstrong. I want all the statues to be active. Satchmo playing the trumpet (with those cheeks). Martha Graham. Jackie Robinson. Anyone who would stand with their arms crossed should be excluded. Unless Washington starts chopping down the cherry tree, he's out.
If Muslims don't like it, they don't have to visit it.
The EO specifies an area of natural beauty and near a major population center. I nominate land near the Cloisters on the Platte. It sits on bluffs above the Platte River and by Interstate 80. About 20 miles west of Omaha.
Let's get some real women in this mix. How about Jerry Mock? Sarah Thompson? Nelly Bly?
This will chafe a lot of asses: how about Mary Chestnut?
AA noted, "that is the problem for Muslims"
I've observed that the list of things that Muslims don't like is quite long.
Take a look,
https://me.me/i/europeans-christians-buddhists-hates-europeans-christians-buddhists-jews-atheists-dogs-gays-lesbians-ham-wine-beer-your-civilization-your-19648594
Hey how about Franklin Roosevelt, for Pete's sake!
Scalia, but no John Marshall, no Brandeis, no Thurgood Marshall?
MacArthur (vain, incompetent and insubordinate) and Patton (who famously struck a soldier in hospital), but not Grant, Eisenhower or George Marshall, the three greatest commanders in American history?
This is a laughable exercise in right wing distraction. Let's talk about Trump's complete failure of leadership on corona virus, his servile response to Putin, his proven efforts to use the levers of US policy to get foreign governments to support his reelection, his refusal to recognize the legitimate bases of the nationwide protests following the death of George Floyd, his inability to study or think coherently about any of the issues presented for his decision, his narcissistic personalization of every political question.
Ready, set, go....
I fail to see the problem with Trump's statuary park. We have statutes and monuments already on federal land so how would this proposed park on federal land be any different?
And 3 more: Allison Kraus, Marni Nixon and Carole Kaye. Do they have to be dead?
traditionalguy said, As the statuesque Blogger We demand a life size Ann Althouse of Madison whose Blog launched ten thousand comments.
I second the motion if she's in running shorts photographing a sunset.
Jefferson and FDR were Democrats.
Jefferson was not a Democrat. He died before the Democratic Party was formed.
On Facebook, one of my colleagues is mad at me, because I am mad at her, because she refuses to condemn destroying statues. Excuse the fuck out of me, but I think historians (and history teachers) have an obligation to protect and preserve history.
"I want the left wing represented."
I think you probably mean liberals, which is something entirely different unless you also want white supremacists included.
If you do mean "left wing", then the Russians have plenty in storage.
It's a lame public relations gesture which is obviously trying to shore up his base and wrong foot his opponents. If they were smart they would ignore him (most likely they will take the bait)
Trump could have won the upcoming election in a landslide if he presented a coherent, consistent plan of action for dealing with Covid in a presidential manner. Instead he's acting like a partisan buffoon. I think he'll lose now.
Why would Noam Chomsky be a hero? I mean as far as I know the only thing he did with his life, other being outspokenly and fanatically left-wing, was to teach linguistics.
And before you ask, you've probably heard that he invented generative grammar. And that is indeed a pretty cool theory, even if not perhaps actually true, and certainly worth celebrating.
Except here's the thing. Noam Chomsky did not invent generative grammar or any of its variants. What he did was take credit for someone else's work for most of his life.
It's not so much feelings-crazed as not being able to do systems, in Althouse's case.
Rule by loudest whining, in Scott Adams's analysis. A method certain to fail.
A little off-topic, but maybe before every sporting event, the home team announces the name of every person murdered in that city, in what context they were murdered, a picture of the person and a moment of silence...every home game. During normal years, every big city has a sporting event at least weekly. 2 birds, one stone.
I was always mainly independent. Noam Chomsky converted me to conservative. He should preach what he practices. Capitalism.
It's a plan to get riots out of the cities and into nearby wastelands.
That's a good idea: corral the protestors, activists, advocates in a pen, in what is a karmic reversal of the order they hoped to normalize. And, yes, include the eugenicists, the abortionists, the chauvinists, too, and don't spare the diversitists who breed adversity. The heroes of leftism should not be forgotten, lest we forget their progress.
I think we should have a statue of Donald Trump carried to and erected on the Moon!
It will stand proudly for the ages and continually drive the progs crazy.
The problem with left wing heroes is most of them supported the KKK like Robert Byrd or snuffing the Black race like Margaret Sanger. So those statues would have to be torn down the moment there were put up. If we are to put up socialist, then what's to stop the left from putting up Adolf Hitler?
In the Great Court, which stands as a patch of untouched peace among the fifty busy square miles devoted to the towering buildings that are the pulse beat of the United Worlds of the Galaxy, stands a statue.
It stands where it can look at the stars at night. There are other statues ringing the court, but this one stands in the center and alone.
It is not a very good statue. The face is too noble and lacks the lines of living. The brow is a shade too high, the nose a shade too symmetrical, the clothing a shade too carefully disposed. The whole bearing is by far too saintly to be true. One can suppose that the man in real life might have frowned at times, or hiccuped, but the statue seemed to insist that such imperfections were impossible.
All this, of course, is understandable overcompensation. The man had no statues raised to him while alive, and succeeding generations, with the advantage of hindsight, felt guilty.
I'm all in favor of more art. It enriches our lives.
The statue of St. Ignatius Loyola in the center of Creighton's campus is absolutely fabulous. It has really improved the campus and is a real blessing.
I was there for the dedication and the Jesuit Superior General was present. Great day for Creighton and it was all made possible by Fr. John P. Schlegel, S.J.
Althouse has just allowed Trump to define the left as being comprised solely of national socialists and international socialists.
His EO is already bearing the fruit he knew it would. The dude is genius.
Have two parks in one! Turn right on entering and the would be Statues of Great American Patriots. Turn left on entering and one would see Heaps of smashed stone and trash in black garbage bags!
Just red meat for the rubes. Nothing will ever happen. Although it will happen faster than the wall.
Actually the border wall is being built.
See Trump wall by drone.
If you watch that you will see what is being built and how it's being built. One question I was left with after watching that is just how fast this is occurring. Since the video was only looking at one contractor, who was putting up a new wall at a mile per week, and there are number of other contractors, then I would guess we are talking between something like ten miles per week for all of them.
The US-Mexican border is almost 2,000 miles long. If twenty percent of it already has a substantial border wall -- not just from this administration, but from various prior -- then that leaves 1,600 miles without a significant barrier. At the current rate of, I'm guessing, ten miles per week it would take 3 years to finish.
An interesting question is why ARM would think a wall wasn't being built. Is it because the only sources he gets his news from him tell him that it isn't?
Statues tend to lose their impact when put into a statuary garden or arranged in an eclectic grouping. Best is the odd statue in a plaza, in a niche, or in a clearing of a park where the passerby can have the experience of encountering the work naturally (accidentally? fortuitously?), and go up -- if it strike him -- to look at the plinth to see who is commemorated there.
It will be important to keep reminding dems/leftists/LLR-leftists that Che Guevara, Maduro and Soleimani are not Americans so they should not be considered for this exhibit.
It implies that no socialist can be among the heroes — only opponents of socialism.
Sounds exactly right.
The Constitution is about reining in the government from its natural propensity to encroach on individual liberty. Socialism is about empowering the government to run people's lives..
I believe it's well past time to be explicit that belief in socialism is antithetical to American values, and to reflect on the various alignments of socialism with other anti-democratic movements in history—so often, of course, in the guise of "promoting democracy," which in practice becomes the kind of mob rule we now see with "Antifa," the "anti-fascist" fascists.
If you want the "left wing" represented, you'll have to make a case for some left-wing heroes who weren't revealed by the Venona decrypts to have been literally Stalin's dupes, or whose idea of "America" was not fundamentally at odds with the Constitution, to say nothing of the Articles of Confederation. In other words, we'll have to first define what "America" is, then define a "left-wing" perspective on it that's constructive in terms of the definition of what it is, then identify left-wing heroes who pursued that construction.
I'm willing to hold back from saying "there are no such left-wing heroes."
Barely.
Actually, upon reflection, I'll offer one: Daniel Patrick Moynihan.
I want the left wing represented.
How about one of President Clinton making the O face while Monica knells before him?
Re: Mary Beth:
There are a lot of tweets guessing that this was the work of Trump supporters, but I'm leaning towards thinking it was the group that pulled down multiple statues instead of the one that pulled down none.
Yeah, I think a lot of people are in denial about just how dumb the protesters pulling down statues are. It's like how you got all these elaborate exegeses of what "defund the police" really meant, and then activists clarified that no, they really did mean exactly what their simplistic slogan said.
Inclusion of the good, the bad, and the ugly will ensure a safe space for all of our statues and monuments.
If Black Lives Matter, why in God's name would you include Margaret Sanger?
Some, select, Black Lives Matter is a testimony to the progressive, secular legacy of Sanger's religious devotion. Let us bray.
I propose that we start with roster of people who have already been honored with USPS stamps which I believe require arduous persuasion?!
further States can do theyr own thang.
Why not have an American hero w/ a huge cock that massively fills out the extra space in one pant leg as it restfully reaches halfway to the knee?
Ron Jeremy has been canceled.
I'm also a fan of the ten commandments, so I'm not much into idolatry either. But it is not just statues that need to change. This business of Democrat names being placed on every building needs to end. Yeah, they can get of Reagan National Airport while they rename Houston back to Houston Intercontinental and JFK back to Idlewild. And since Columbus is problematic, and we are in the 21st Century; disband DC, give the apportionments back to Maryland and Virginia, and distribute federal services across the country. If business can have people working remotely from home, so can the federal government. At least at smaller local offices that represent the local citizenry.
"It implies that no socialist can be among the heroes... I want the left wing represented."
So the left wing is all socialist?
I had begun to think that was so. Good to know it has been confirmed.
"I want the left wing represented."
How about Julian and Ethel Rosenberg? You could represent them (realistically!) in their electric chairs under the benevolent gaze of a bust of Stalin. Would it be too much to ask for a light show on the Fourth of July?
If Ann wants the left represented how about a few to piss them off, too- Milton Freidman, Thomas Sowell, et al. Maybe make the statues of wax so then whatever side is in power can melt the other side without having to bring in the engineers...
"I want the left wing represented."
How about Julian and Ethel Rosenberg? You could represent them (realistically!) in their electric chairs under the benevolent gaze of a bust of Stalin. Would it be too much to ask for a light show on the Fourth of July?
It's like the US Hall of Fame. Cool. As long as Wayne Gretzky gets a prominent position.
Arguing about whose statues should NOT be there misses the point. As does our hostess' idea that including heroes against Socialism means other heroes who happen to be socialists logically must be excluded.
I would love to walk this park with my grandchildren, talking about what I admire about my heroes as we pass them. Woody Guthrie's socialism disqualifies him from my personal list, but I get why others love him, and if he's in the park it costs me nothing to say so as we pass him by.
Greatness in some field of endeavor should get you on the candidate list, private funding gets your statue built, and only the most obviously evil acts are automatic disqualifiers (sorry, O.J.).
Except for the God that you worship, all of your heroes are flawed. And so is America..awesome and flawed at the same time...just like her heroes.
This is nonsense, except as a volley in the culture war; if Trump can milk it, bully for him.
As to who to include--why not just make it automatic for the recipients of the plethora of awards we already have--Presidential Medal of Freedom and the like, all those people most people have never heard of, who did stuff most people couldn't care less about?
As to Muslims, they can adapt or go elsewhere. There are dozens of countries in the world under Islamic law, if that's their bag.
RIP Charlie Daniels indeed. I saw the CDB on campus about 1975; I had barely heard of the guy and went along with a friend for the hell of it.
It was awesome! However corny he could get, he was a damn fine fiddler with an outstanding band, and they did great, long, show.
Narr
He needs a statue
Sigh. Just one of a long list of issues our Muslim friends have had for a very long time with ...the basic tenets of Western civilization.
As Raylon Givens once said (in a slightly difference context): "If you keep running into assholes all day, then maybe you are the asshole."
Trump’s statue must be in bronze of course.
Master Troll does what he does best. Trump is just using the laser pointer to get the cat to jump off the balcony now. Its just too easy.
Please!
Not a single person you mentioned in paragraph 4 is worthy of being there.
Dorothy Parker?
Woody Guthrie?Just trying to rile the readers with that garbage?
"I tend to eschew idolatry, but if we're going to make a list of American heroes, I want the left wing represented.
Goodness me, I'm not sure that I would mind this either, but you see my dear, the whole reason for the park in the first place is because the left wing has been busily tearing down these statues all across the country in the first freakin' place! Would you settle for a simple firing squad ceremony at its opening?
None of the examples that you have listed would qualify if we are measuring by national/international stature, lifetime accomplishment, and contribution to American achievement and culture - in my opinion.
And all depictions must be lifelike and realistic, just the way they were in socialist realism. Oops, I meant individualistic, but nonetheless required, realism. After all, uniformity in expression is the American way!
Why isn't this simply disgusting?
Paul Robeson realized he was no hero when it sunk in to him that worshipping Stalinism was better done in the U.S. than Moscow.
He should probably also be excluded on the basis of that weird film he made with H.D., but the Stalin thing is objectively bad.
How about George Schuyler, most popular black columnist during WWII, great noir novelist, veteran, patriot, and John Birch Society spokesman? He lost his one daughter in Vietnam. She was a concert pianist, reporting from there and I believe doing USO work. Helicopter crash.
The JBS integrated before the GOP or the DNC, or National Review. Funny how few people know that. Buckley was still stumblebumming slurs while tossing his greasy forelock decades later.
The rest of the people on the list are mostly dumb bunny communist stooges. Now why is that?
How about Robert Oppenheimr?--He's pink enouugh to lease the progressives, but there's that atom bomb thing that might get their knickers in a twist.
And sine the Black Lives Matter people (or at least the non crazy ones in the bunch) are saying that we can't demolish the Edmund Pettus bridge in Selma Alabama, how aobout making a new statue for Edmund Pettus--an otherwise barely known Confederate General
Chuck Yeager---too white, from West Virginia and helped usher in the jet age with all those climate destroying emissions.
>>"is anyone talking about the impact of this sculpture garden on people who have a strong moral or religious opposition to statues? I'm thinking in particular of Muslims."<<
OK then, here's the solution: The park will have no statues of Muslims. No Muslims will be required to go to the park.
Next problem?
Generations from now, we will be able to look back and tell our children that this this was the moment when the rise of the communists began to slow and our national community began to heal. This was the moment when we ended a culture war and secured our nation and restored our image as the last, best hope on Earth.
There have been times and places in the Islamic world where Muslims had no problem with representational art.
And if Muslims get a veto over statues in parks, shouldn't Jains get a veto over pesticide application in parks? That way lies madness.
And speaking of idolatry, is anyone talking about the impact of this sculpture garden on people who have a strong moral or religious opposition to statues? I'm thinking in particular of Muslims.
Why? Why must we continuously bow down to the dictates of Islam while attacking Christianity is all forms?
Who should be honored? I'll start with some 20th Century heroes:
01. Charles Lindbergh
02. Hebert Hoover
03. Whitaker Chambers
04. Phyllis Schafly
05. Dr. Salk
06. Douglas MacArthur
07. Booker T. Washington
08. William Randolph Hearst
09. Robert Taft
10. John wayne
The modern left wing? There are plenty of left wing folks from our founding and formative years to have a politically diverse, yet America supporting, set of honorees. Why would we honor Marxists and Socialists? They, and their ideas, failed.
And why do we care what Muslims believe? This is not a Muslim country, nor culture. And there are no obvious or prominent Muslims in our history deserving of statuary honor.
Pete Seeger and Guthrie recorded as the Almanac Singers as France and Poland were overrun and the Holocaust cranked up. All their songs were isolationist and anti-war, opposing aid to the UK because Britain was not a "democracy. All this was in accordance with Hitler's ally Stalin's orders to the American Communist Party members. On the day that Hitler invaded the Soviet Union, the Almanace Singers reversed course so fast that their underwear was on backwards and started pushing American boys (not them, of course) to go to war to beat Hitler. You could look it up.
In what sense are they American heroes?
What's the over/under that he's trolling/joking?
They should put it across from Storm King park in New York State. Or as I call it, “the Island of Misfit Sculptures.”
Sample ugly sculpture
"Gloria Steinem? - Complete hypocrite”
But I hope it does her hotness justice.
I could write a very short book about left wing hero's, about as short as my other 2 books,"Famous Italian War Heros" and " Negros I Have Met At Yachting Parties"!
A great sculpture would be Woodrow Wilson striking a match and setting the 20th century ablaze.
When I was on London I was pleased to see a statue to a man who truly deserved it: Hugh Dowding. I know nothing of his private life, what pronouns he used, which if any sexual preferences he had, how he voted, but he did more than any other single person to win the Battle of Britain.
Margaret Sanger should be right alongside Robert Byrd's statue. She's got a higher body count than the Death's Head SS battalion and Josef Mengele combined.
Inga: "Trump’s statue must be in bronze of course."
Inga's pals were busy beating up church goers and screaming at children and disrupting church services today.
Because of course they were.
https://twitter.com/charliekirk11/status/1280172490245861377
Inga probably wants a statue to Peter Strzok and Lisa Page prominently displayed.
If the aniconists don’t want to visit the garden, they don’t need to. The funding will not go toward furthering a competing (or any) religion: the figures are there to commemorate events and people in the secular world.
Based on the Wiki entry, Q’ran does not condemn the making of representations of living forms, it onky makes passing reference to Allah’s status as “maker of the [actual] living forms,” just as the Judeo-Christian God created everything, including all living things. So I don.’the read that as a condemnation of the act of making representations —mere and obvious lifeless imitations of the original living works. They are not idols but reference points toward the true glory. It is only in the collateral material, the Hadith, that you get an attempt to criminalize the art. Typical jackass move by a minor bureaucrat, making new prohibitions around the original affirmation.
Confused about the consideration of Muslims. Has President Trump made attendance mandatory? This memorial sounds like something you must make a fair amount of effort to see. If you don't like statues, don't go. I'm not a big fan of huge Frying pans, so, while I'm often in the area, I haven't taken in the sight. But I wouldn't prevent you from going. Same with that big ball of twine. Knock yourself out.
John Wayne listed as a hero is a very precise cuck detector. In rcocean's case, it's just confirming what we already know.
How about George McGovern? He didn't have a trick knee or bone spurs, but he does have a DFC.
HEY... anything that makes us forget that Confederates are Democrats, and that's the main idea here. Confederates == Democrats? Not in the new history books!
Actually the border wall is being built.
See Trump wall by drone.
Very impressive. There are other videos that show the work of other contractors. This wall must be built. All of it.
- krumhorn
I want the left wing represented.
Benedict Arnold - non-slave-owning opponent of the controversial and polarizing slave owner, George Washington.
John Wilkes Booth - actor and political activist, remembered for a mostly peaceful protest at Ford's Theater during which a gunshot took the life of the deeply divisive and militarist Republican, Abraham Lincoln.
Julius and Ethel Rosenberg - disseminators of valuable scientific information.
Lee Harvey Oswald - political activist and veteran, remembered for a mostly peaceful protest that took place in Dallas in 1963, during which a fatal bullet hit the sexist President John F Kennedy, the man who began America's futile interference with the progress of the Socialist Republic of Vietnam towards unity.
We are looking for a piece of sculptural art for our living room. I was not thinking of anything huge, but if people are going to start making a whole lot of statues, maybe I can get a discount.
An abstract Trump in bronze might be OK with my artist (and life long Democrat) wife if it conveyed a message we would both appreciate or not be offended by.
Any sculptural artists out there looking for a commission?
Ginger Beer wrote: "Pete Seeger was an unapologetic Stalinist until the day he died." Technically, not quite. One of the funniest things I read in the annals of Leftist Stupidity was Seeger saying in the last year or two of his life, something like, "You know, that Stalin may not have been such a good guy after all."
Howard: "John Wayne listed as a hero is a very precise cuck detector. In rcocean's case, it's just confirming what we already know."
Howard has, on multiple occasions, referred to the BLM rioters like the ones who murdered the children this last weekend as Heroes worthy of praise and equivalent to our D-Day troops.
I think that's just about all we need to know about Howard's assessment of Heroes.
Krumhorn: "Very impressive. There are other videos that show the work of other contractors. This wall must be built. All of it."
That "proof" is merely video and real time and easily verified which cannot, for even a moment, compare to Beijing Boy ARM's "testimony" on Althouse blog.
Obviously.
Ann Coulter Can't Stop Trolling Trump After Border Patrol Tried to Brag About 'Over 200 Miles of New Border Wall'
I didn't see anything about who pays for the statues. Most,if not all past monuments have been for by privately raised funds. This effort should be as well.
"The Memorial to Victims of Communism."
That's a good one.
Who are your heroes?
These people might've qualified as heroes in the past for arbitrary and capricious personal reasons -
Sports: P. Nurmi, M. Ali.
Music: Richards, Waters, Wolf, Page, Byrne, Reznor.
Visual: A. Adams, E. Curtis, M. Brady, G. Winogrand, R. Frank, Bushmiller, Crumb, R. Griffin, Rbt. Williams. (+ old timers like Bosch, Bruegel, Durer, etc)
Thinking: Newton, Maxwell, Einstein, Feynman, Darwin, Galton, Dawkins, Edison.
Words: Twain, Zola, Frazer, Orwell, Huxley, Miller, Vonnegut, Guthrie Jr.
Which reminds me, the anti-STEM crazy racists are trying to cancel Steven Pinker.
How about George McGovern? He didn't have a trick knee or bone spurs, but he does have a DFC.
He also admitted, late in life, after trying to run a small business how fucked up your leftist economics are.
James B. Coxey, who organized Coxey's Army in 1894, is a possible candidate for an authentic left-wing hero who did not want to destroy America and turn into something opposite.
Now the reason I know about Coxey is because my brother started looking up our ancestors and although Coxey is not an ancestor, his first wife, who later divorced him, was.
See Jacob S. Coxey and Jacob S. Coxey
" Negros I Have Met At Yachting Parties"!
I actually knew a black sail maker. Pretty good sailor.
Inga said...
Trump’s statue must be in bronze of course.
Most statues are you idiot. That or marble.
So far we have ARM now fully and simultaneously in the Avenatti, Bolton and Ann Coulter Camp.
Trump truly is a stable genius.
Quick question for Inga and Beijing Boy: should the Strzok/Page statue show them in an embrace, or would it be more appropriate for them to stand back to back, arms crossed, looking forward together, like a Law Firm pic?
Would it be even more appropriate to have foreigner Christopher Steele and his one russian Putin-connected subsource stand behind them in a group?
Oh, and maybe Mark Twain. I was going to say of course instead of maybe but then I started thinking about it.
I have always thought of Mark Twain as being left-wing because he was so vehemently anti-war. But that's just a reflection of when I was born. Historically the left has often demanded war. I don't think being anti-war is an enduring left-wing value.
And then I started to think about all of the other authors I have liked that were left-wing. Except there is a problem here. Although these people described themselves as left-wing back when they did whatever, if they were alive today, and assuming they maintained the same beliefs now as back then, they would pretty much all be considered right-wing.
Steppin Razor: what you said.
Matthew Heintz: I know of about a dozen Italian-American war heros and knew three personally. Of course your surname excludes you from the conversation. Go pound your knockwurst.
I think all the suggestions are great, but would insist that all statues depict the hero in a toga (http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_lxXu9A3PYjA/TNyaDanyuwI/AAAAAAAAAYw/1cTQyFqps_8/s1600/100_1104.jpg) or in the nude.
Amexpat said...
... Trump could have won the upcoming election in a landslide if he presented a coherent, consistent plan of action for dealing with Covid in a presidential manner.
Two positives can’t make a negative, except for the sarcastic toned “Yeah. Right.”
Now imagine a voice dripping with sarcasm.
Yeah. Right.
Trump suggested that HCQ might possibly be useful in fighting the dreaded covid. Immediately at least two governors, including my state’s Dictator Cuomo, issued edicts forbidding it’s use. The people who said it was effective said the key was intervening early. The American medical establishment, including the government’s very own VA healthcare system, immediately designed trials where it was only given to people in the ICU or on ventilators, and loudly proclaimed, amplified by the media: “It doesn’t work! Trump’s a fool!” And of course now we have several reports from around the world that prove, if used early, it works.
He did have one coherent plan early- halt international travel from China and other hotspots. And was roundly condemned because covid wasn’t a problem, the big dumb idiot was overreacting. Oops! He was right.
One, only one, of our 50 governors got it completely correct. Kristi Noem of South Dakota. Do nothing and deal with problems as they arise. Duh! It’s so simple the intelligentsia can’t understand it. BTW, she has my vote locked in for 2024 should she brave being Palinized.
Right now Navy admirals are doubling down on restrictions for sailors. Almost as if they’re daring POTUS to override their idiocy. Of 1.3 million active duty personnel there has been one whole entire covid death. Almost as if young healthy people can get it and quickly recover, or not get it at all as their immune system nips it in the bud.
There is absolutely no national policy that President Donald John Trump could have implemented that wouldn’t have been attacked by Democrats with the willing assistance of the media, coupled with governors like Dictator Cuomo openly defying the federal policies and doing exactly the opposite. Like Dictator Cuomo did by ordering nursing homes and other long term care facilities to take in covid positive patients. He’s got a ways to go before he’s murdered as many people as other modern dictators, but he’s got a good start.
The USA is 50 states, each of which can make it’s own policy for dealing with emergencies or problems. What works in Delaware doesn’t generally work in Wyoming.
Getting multiple fundraising appeals tied to the announcement. Its real purpose.
obviously all American winners of the Nobel Peace Prize should get statues.
So far as I can tell, there is no great groundswell of opinion demanding that statues of Dorothy Parker be erected. Nonetheless, here's how I'd like to remember her. Put up a statue of Marilyn Monroe in a diaphanous nightgown. Have Marilyn posed with a Petrie dish and a confused expression. On the plinth below, put the Dorothy Parker quotation: "You can lead a whore to culture, but you can't make her think". It's important that the nipples be visible. That's how I'd like to remember her. Marilyn, I mean.
I think when we put up statues, we like to celebrate that person's most enduring and lasting contribution to the balance sheet of humanity. We don't erect statues to memorialize their deficits. Some of the people Althouse named are not known for the their political or economic insights, but they could carry a tune in other areas. And, as noted above, it's important that the nipples on the Marilyn Monroe statue be visible.
What about James Baldwin? Woody Guthrie? Noam Chomsky? W.E.B. Du Bois? Kurt Vonnegut? Madalyn Murray O'Hair? Gloria Steinem? Pete Seeger? Margaret Sanger? Paul Robeson? Dorothy Parker?
No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. Thanks for playing.
In what sense are they American heroes?
Why, they moistened Ms Althouse's lady parts. What else would suffice? What else is needed?
The Douglass statue seems to be one of 13 resin Douglass statues put up around Rochester a few years ago. One was already replaced two years ago, after it was vandalized.
Let's talk about Trump's...
See, the problem here is the impacted assertions you have clogging your premises. I believe an enema is in order for your constipated thinking.
This is so dumb but it won't come to pass -- it's just Trump counterbalance -- he puts something out so the press will freak out over it while he does something else entirely.
"I think that's just about all we need to know about Howard's assessment of Heroes."
Howard is an edge lord. As is Ann Coulter. Get it?
"He [McGovern] also admitted, late in life, after trying to run a small business how fucked up your leftist economics are."
McGovern's finest moment. A brainwashed "syllogistically challenged" State-fellator like Howard or Inga could go their whole lives and never have that kind of Road to Damascus moment.
As usual, President Trump explodes brains. It is truly amazing.
Ann Althouse said...
I tend to eschew idolatry, but if we're going to make a list of American heroes, I want the left wing represented.
The image that comes to mind is of a segregated garden, sorta like the old smoking and non-smoking sections of restaurants in a time gone by, created in the name of "neutrality." But what does it mean to have the left represented? Does that include Abby Hoffman? What about the Weather Underground or The Symbionese Liberation Army? Maybe Howard Zinn deserves one, doesn't he? And The Beat Poets, what of them? Should we make sure Timothy Leary is represented? What about a collection statues demonstrating the Vietnam, er, Demonstrations? And then there's Earl Warren. Does he deserve enshrinement? Should Ted Kennedy have one, with him climbing out of a car?
But then I guess that's the argument for and against...heroes for some, but not everyone.
I only mention this because once you open the door to one, you open the door to the possibility of any and all, some noble, some not so much. Not sure that I care if there's a statue of Baron Von Steuben, although one of Tip O'Neill would be just fine (I think Tip O'Neill was a great Speaker of The House, btw), and one of Malcolm X.
The whining “but what about the Muslims?” bit is weird. We have tons of lifelike statues already and American Muslims somehow manage. Maybe we should stop treating them like they are made of glass?
Indeed, we have had new statues in recent times. For instance there’s one from the Obama administration honoring Martin Luther King, Jr. it’s not perfectly realistic but it’s close enough to trigger most of the same concerns, which I don’t recall you voicing at the time. It unrealistic in the sense it is half unchiseled stone, which led to jokes that Darth Vader froze him in carbonite. Hell, he’s also a Christian pastor! Double plus I good!
Of course famously the taliban destroyed statues, but IGAF what radical goofballs like that think,
I don’t really care. Do you?
What about James Baldwin? Woody Guthrie? Noam Chomsky? W.E.B. Du Bois? Kurt Vonnegut? Madalyn Murray O'Hair? Gloria Steinem? Pete Seeger? Margaret Sanger? Paul Robeson? Dorothy Parker?
Only Paul Robeson. The rest are worthless. Especially not Chomsky, Steinem, or Sanger.
"And The Beat Poets, what of them?" Only if they include my own childhood hero, Maynard G. Krebs, or the Beat in Kerouac's ON THE ROAD who hated cops, labor unions and liberals.
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