June 14, 2020
"We will not sell facial-recognition technology to police departments in the United States until we have a national law in place, grounded in human rights, that will govern this technology."
Said Microsoft President Brad Smith, quoted in "Microsoft won’t sell police its facial-recognition technology, following similar moves by Amazon and IBM" (WaPo).
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But we will sell it to China.
but, they'll GLADLY sell to China, right?
i mean, right?
As Richard Grenell pointed out in a Tweet, they probably do see to countries where being gay is criminalized.
THEOLDMAN
It's a private business. Let them do as they wish. And when the next mass shooter cannot be identified while leaving a Las Vegas hotel, oh well.
The science is settled — some people all look alike.
Question: Who are they selling the technology to?
This will open up the opportunity for the creation of a new billionaire. I’ll bet the Chinese would be happy to sell the tech to the police
- Krumhorn
They've been saying that for two years. There doesn't seem to be an unwillingness to sell to private entities so it wouldn't be impossible to get. I would think, also, that it's quite likely that the NSA or some other government group has been working on their own technology and isn't reliant on Microsoft or Amazon for it.
It seems like a fairly safe PR move, as long as there isn't a big terrorist event. Then they could end up being a scapegoat - we could have caught the baddies sooner if only we'd had the facial recognition technology in place that Microsoft wouldn't sell us.
Are there any bookmakers who have odds on how the anti-commandeering principle and dual sovereignty will fare when they collide with Commerce Clause hooks in such a law?
It is a nice gesture to say that we need such a national law, but I am not sure how much it could govern use by police departments, as opposed to the capabilities provided by the vendors.
License plate readers are already used almost universally by police. Who needsyour face when tbey know where you drove, already?
maybe Silicon Valley can publish HumanRightsWatchList in collaboration with SPLC
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@Marcus said...
As Richard Grenell pointed out in a Tweet, they probably do see to countries where being gay is criminalized.
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so it is facial recognition + 'gaydar tech'
How does this help? 4 police pinned down Floyd and one of them sat on his neck.
Sahll we address the democratics who run the Minneapolis police dept?
oh no! can't do that. Narrative.
Do this with China, you fucking, posturing assholes.
From his lofty perch, "But we have no problem selling facial recognition equipment and software to China."
Whatever. I'm so tired of these companies living by obvious double standards- censor here in the US, but work freely with communists and bad actors. I'm dropping T-Mobile this week. And the upcoming trip to Disney with the grandkids? Screw them. There are other amusement parks in Florida we can go to. Or the beach. The beach takes no political stand.
Too late to close that particular barn door. The technology exists and has been developed over many years by many different companies and government agencies.
It’s everywhere already, and more to the point, any legislation they work on will be shaped by both those that want the technology and those that produce it. You know who won’t shape that legislation? Those who need to be protected by that legislation.
"Whatever" is the word that teenagers mostly girls employee when they admit yeah I know you're right but I don't want to talk about it anymore cuz I'm embarrassed
the new motto for the deplorables: Freedom fighters for the police state
Microsoft is doing what it's always done; waiting until they see someone else making money from a technology before they commit heavily to it.
Doesn't the desire for a national law fly in the face of federalism? Why have states if they are not competent to exercise police powers?
But we will sell it to China.
we address the democratics who run the Minneapolis police dept
so tired of these companies living by obvious double standards
They're Pro-Choice, selective, opportunistic, reacting to em-pathetic appeals for leverage and profit. That said, after 16 trimesters of conducting witch hunts and warlock trials, the Democrats are desperate to force a politically congruent narrative that shares or shifts responsibility.
But they will see it to China... right?
Do this with China, you fucking, posturing assholes.
Which reminds me, with the help of the one dog I'm developing a fecal recognition system - no shit!
And I also won't sell it to police departments, but not by choice.
masks AND facial recognition
what's next?
We want the government to give us monopolistic control over this technology or we won't see it. And don't call us fascist.
Maybe all these tech geniuses should set their clever little brains to the task of devising a way to enforce the laws without arresting black people. They could make a little project out of it. Show those stupid cops how it's done!
More corporate posturing. Maybe not as bad as Boeing's brave stand against "systemic racism" but this is just begging for a rebuttal that Microsoft and Google have absolutely no qualms with helping the Chinese police state 24/7 when there is money to be made.
Why isn't a contract that spells out the limitations and restrictions on the use of the technology sufficient?
“We will not sell facial-recognition technology to police departments in the United States until we have a national law in place, grounded in human rights, that will govern this technology,” Smith said.
But these companies (IBM, Microsoft, et. al.) have no qualms dealing with countries like China, which in effect have no national human rights laws in place, in selling their products to. In fact, they seem go out of their way to try to sell their products to China. Remember when Google had their motto of “Don’t be evil”? Google refused to work with the US government in going after people viewing and purveying child porn on the web. Yet, they work hand-in-hand with China going after human rights activists in China & Tibet using the web to get their messages out to their fellow citizens and the world. Many of these activists were imprisoned long-term, assaulted, sent to “re-education camps” or permanently disappeared.
Greedy, self-righteous Hypocrites...
Several commenters have made the salient point that Microsoft will gladly sell the technology to China.
Microsoft is asshole!
China should actually steal the IT technology just to teach Gates a valuable lesson in assholery.
“License plate readers are already used almost universally by police. Who needsyour face when tbey know where you drove, already?”
Real story. Awhile ago I was visiting PHX, staying at a motel, and one of my license plates was stolen. The PHX PD Officer who showed up to take the report suggested that I drive back up to CO with no plates. He told me that if I tried it with a plate that had been reported stolen I would be escorted out of the vehicle at gunpoint. He then demonstrated to me how the system worked. He scanned my remaining plate and his entire computer screen started flashing, indicating a stolen license plate. All automatic. I followed his advice, and wasn’t pulled over until I was almost home, over 700 miles later. CO state trooper at the bottom of Vail Pass pulled me over and after hearing my story confirmed it - that indeed, if his plate scanner had recognized my plate, he would have removed me from the vehicle at gunpoint. Probably after Vail PD had responded to back him up. Didn’t even get a ticket, after I showed him the plate I had removed, and it was registered to me. Popped into into the DMV the next day, got a new set of plates, put them on in the parking lot, and all was well.
It's an absolutely meaningless statement. The software is generally available in open source.
Yes, the "magic of the free market". Funny how the economists assure us that as long as we have COMPETITION it'll all be OK. Except it doesn't work out that way. Wasn't there something on the web, that MS or IBM was going to sell the technology overseas to China and other countries?
But the Police in the USA can't be trusted, says the rich white men who run IBM and MS. If I was Trump I'd pursue a DoJ suit against these companies for being monopolies and refusing to compete. Or perhaps use the Production Act used during CV-19 and FORCE them to sell the technology to Police Departments.
I suppose that one could source such software from, I dunno, India maybe?
I'm not an advocate of the surveillance of society, but if there's demand, someone will figure out a way to meet it.
Bruce: I was driving a rental and was pulled over, with no traffic violation, for driving uninsured. When I explained it was a rental, and that the company self-insured, and that I did indeed have State Farm auto insurance, the officer let me go. But it would have been a nice juicy several hundred dollars to the city if I'd been uninsured. Unless, of course, I was also illegally here. Then, no problem!
Better still, ban the technology. It's time to establish privacy rights. Indeed time to stop the collection and sale of personal information without consent.
Also because their facial recognition software doesn’t work very well.
“This will open up the opportunity for the creation of a new billionaire. I’ll bet the Chinese would be happy to sell the tech to the police “
Natch. And it will be cheaper.
There’s no empty signaling quite like corporate empty signaling. My older son’s large Seattle-based engineering firm (which has two black employees) gave everybody the afternoon off to work for racial justice. My son and his white friends went hiking and had a few beers. I’m guessing their middle-aged white supervisors, oddly mostly named Scott, weren’t exactly marching through Selma that afternoon.
But it would have been a nice juicy several hundred dollars to the city if I'd been uninsured. Unless, of course, I was also illegally here. Then, no problem!
A friend of mine with dual citizenship with Mexico used his Mexican driver's license in the US (and vice-versa); he got stopped in Denver and they physially took his driver's license because he didn't have insurance. Then about a week later he got the Mexican license back in the mail, with a note saying, "Sorry, we can't confiscate foreign licenses, so here's yours back." Also no ticket or fine.
Plates? in California only a rear plate is required. Where the tag must go.
Microsoft is virtue signaling to the Seattle area thugs in the hopes they will burn down the Seattle area MS campus last. I suppose they don't currently have any real estate or employees in the CHAZ, but it would be fun if they did.
It could reduce false positives to limit collateral damage, and reduce false negatives to mitigate criminal progress. I guess when you're a diversitist, a color is a color is a color. Some... select... indigo lives matter. #HateLovesAbortion
Technology has given a voice to countless people and helps facilitate democratic movements. It has lifted the veil on repressive societies. It has brought greater transparency and justice. It is a good thing.
Let's use this software. Let's identify the men and women behind the arson and looting. Let's give these bastards an opportunity to tell us their story...
They suck in face recognition and they know it. Especially of the black guys. They would generate so many false positives, they would not crawl out from under the lawsuits.
Crack, when we lived in Seattle my mother-in-law used to get on our case all the time for not doing more yard work. We told her, "You live in southern California where the weather is almost always perfect. Here, when the weather is bad, nobody wants to do yard work. And when the weather is good, nobody wants to do yard work."
It didn't stop her from giving us sh*t but it was the truth nonetheless.
Remember "eminent domain"? If the Government wants a product you've got, they can TAKE it.
This matters and the net effect will be more people killed -- both more black people and more white people, but especially more white people.
Hey, I've got a recommendation for a Federal law to address this issue:
"All businesses that, after September 1, 2020, refuse to sell a product or service to any law enforcement agency in the US on the same basis that the business has sold it to any other customer shall be subject to a 25% tax on all gross revenues from September 30, 1920 and going forward. The first payment, on all revenues accrued since September 30, 1920, will be due September 30, 2020, with further payments made quarterly."
Note that this is of course just an income tax. It is not an ex post facto law under current precedent; income taxes on income earned before passage of a tax have been upheld by the courts.
IBM is getting out of the business altogether, ostensibly for the same reason. Maybe another field for Musk? Anyway, there's no such thing as a "moral" or "virtuous" company. They are managed by humans and have human traits. I'd advise anyone that company mottoes and vision statements are nothing more than marketing gimmicks for the rubes; that's you. I suspect IBM quitting altogether and Microsoft"refusing" to do business with government agencies points to defective product and they are cutting their losses. Microsoft in particular is notable simply because the government is the only entity big enough to whip their ass in court, which is exactly what would be required to get the noble Microsoft to even refund purchase price of defective software. Their shit has been broken since it was first offered for sale.
Facial recognition software is a red herring. The real creepy tech is body geometry and dynamics recognition. You can change your face with makeup, hair, and prosthetics; it's really hard to change your body proportions and the way your body moves around those proportions.
Sounds like restraint of trade, but i'd like to see if they are selling to China.
Maybe Microsoft found out they really do all look alike.
Clearview AI, an American company, allows hundreds of law enforcement agencies to search for individuals from a database of billions of photos scraped from online sources. Their gigantic database file puts them well ahead of the big guys in finding matches, so I would assume search prices will rise along with Clearview's customer count. Congress cannot do anything as long as party control of the Congress is split.
Funny thing is that management of the Microsoft, Amazon and IBM are turning down profits. Amazon has been attacked by Trump, supposedly because of excess delivery charges made to USPS when in fact he is out to get Bezos and WaPo. So is this whole thing an Amazon counter-thrust?
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