June 11, 2020

"On the new rebel state’s first night, the atmosphere was festive and triumphant. Hooded men spray-painted the police station with slogans and anarchist symbols..."

"... renaming it the 'Seattle People’s Department East Precinct.' Raz Simone, a local rapper with an AK-47 slung from his shoulder and a pistol attached to his hip, screamed, 'This is war!' into a white-and-red megaphone and instructed armed paramilitaries to guard the barricades in shifts. Later in the night, Simone was filmed allegedly assaulting multiple protestors who disobeyed his orders, informing them that he was the 'police' now, sparking fears that he was becoming the de facto warlord of the autonomous zone. A homeless man with a baseball bat wandered along the borderline and two unofficial medics in medieval-style chain mail stood ready for action."

From "Anarchy in Seattle/Antifa-affiliated activists seize control of a city neighborhood and declare an 'autonomous zone'" by Christopher F. Rufo (City Journal).

At least it's an example: Don't do this in your city. (Can I trust this not to happen in my city?)

ADDED: Here's the NYT article on the subject "Free Food, Free Speech and Free of Police: Inside Seattle’s ‘Autonomous Zone’/President Trump challenged Seattle’s mayor to 'take back your city' after police vacated a precinct and protesters laid claim to the neighborhood around it":
[F]acing a growing backlash over its dispersal tactics in the aftermath of George Floyd’s death in Minneapolis, the Seattle Police Department this week offered a concession: Officers would abandon their precinct, board up the windows and let the protesters have free rein outside.

In a neighborhood that is the heart of the city’s art and culture — threatened these days as rising tech wealth brings in gentrification — protesters seized the moment. They reversed the barricades to shield the liberated streets and laid claim to several city blocks, now known as the “Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone.”

“This space is now property of the Seattle people,” read a banner on the front entrance of the now-empty police station. The entire area was now a homeland for racial justice — and, depending on the protester one talked to, perhaps something more....

“Take back your city NOW,” Mr. Trump wrote in a tweet directed at Mayor Jenny Durkan and Gov. Jay Inslee. “If you don’t do it, I will. This is not a game.”....

The protest zone has increasingly functioned with the tacit blessing of the city. Harold Scoggins, the fire chief, was there on Wednesday, chatting with protesters, helping set up a call with the police department and making sure the area had portable toilets and sanitation services. “I have no idea where we’re headed,” Mr. Scoggins said in an interview. “We’ve been working step by step on how to build a relationship, build trust in small things, so we can figure this out together.”...
AND: Ken Jennings (who lives in Seattle) weighs in:

155 comments:

Jessica said...

Thank you for highlighting this.

RMc said...

(Can I trust this not to happen in my city?)

"My advice to you is start drinking heavily."

rhhardin said...

Warlord is not an easy job. You have to watch your back.

Winnie said...

Shouldn't they vote or at least get a show of hands to confirm support? Maybe they just plan to be autonomous with no outside funding. I'm skeptical that everyone is in agreement for this zone.

rhhardin said...

Seatle is a good example of the peaceful transfer of power that America can do.

Annie C. said...

Trust? No.

jeremyabrams said...

Madison is essentially a smaller Seattle, in terms of political sentiment. This can be expected there, unless Trump rolls the troops into Seattle, which until now I opposed.

Jersey Fled said...

(Can I trust this not to happen in my city?)

Short answer: No

rehajm said...

(Can I trust this not to happen in my city?)

Follow the money. Are your Governor/Mayor/DA on the take?

Cogs said...

I don’t understand why this isn’t a bigger story.

tim maguire said...

We'll know the government cares about being a government when they hang these people. That will send the necessary message to the rest.

rehajm said...

...informing them that he was the 'police' now

Defund the 'police'.

Temujin said...

You get the leaders you deserve. In their haste to be 'progressive' the people of Seattle have put a Governor who is far left and arrogant, a mayor who is far left and feckless, and a city council who are raging socialists. They are so progressive that massive numbers of homeless and piss on the streets are accepted as everyday proof of the failure of capitalism instead of their own leadership. They have allowed, no- approved- of bad behavior and anti-societal movements for so long, they cannot even recall how that city became an 'almost' great city.

Well- it's done now. Just as San Franciscans are fleeing their city, Seattleites- those with brains and the means, will flee Seattle, leaving only these trolls and possibly Starbuck, Amazon, Microsoft, Google, Dropbox, etc. Boeing is at least down on the south end of the city and can continue to pretend it won't affect them. The tech giants have groomed and approved this mentality. I hope they enjoy stewing in it.

I have family there. They are so woke they see nothing wrong going on except that the police used tear gas and that's why 'the people' revolted. Kids parading around as adults- is how I view my family at this point.

Mr Wibble said...

It would take a heart of stone not to laugh hysterically at these wannabe revolutionaries getting a dose of reality.

Who rules the wasteland?!

wendybar said...

Welcome to Progressive Utopia. Hope you are ready!!

gilbar said...

(Can I trust this not to happen in my city?)
(I Can I trust this to happen in my city!)
fify!

welcome to party pal! Remember how scared and terrified you were of the corona virus?
The civil unrest virus should scare you A LOT more

Unknown said...

When idealists take over there is usually a short transition period before they are disillusioned enough to start compromising their ideals. That shift from protesting police violence to becoming violent police happened so quickly implies this was not idealism. At least with this crew, the violence and/or power was the goal from the start.

gilbar said...

Winnie said...
Shouldn't they vote or at least get a show of hands to confirm support?


Winnie, what are you? some sort of RACIST?
do they vote, in Somalia ?
do they vote, in Sudan ?
do they vote, in Libya ?
do they vote, in South Africa ?

rhhardin said...

It's not consistent to wear hoods. Who are they worried will identify them.

tds said...

the war-lord thing in Seattle is going to evolve into a war-lord's voluntary harem thing (because it always does), then into an involuntary harem, then will get cancelled for #MeToo reasons.

iowan2 said...

I don't know if I'm mad because I can't fight the idiocy in these cities, or just smug, because in my circles, it is not near so stupid.

Has anybody thought this through? What happens if 90% of tax payers, don't? I pay taxes for govt services. That includes police. If I lived in jurisdiction where the police are standing down, I'm not paying. We have to wait until August/September to withhold property taxes, but what if property tax recipients went to 15% of normal? What is the risk for property owners? Think this thru. Property owners, united, can literally shut down govt funding. Govt recourse is very structured and time consuming. We can get the mayor to do another hostage video, now that we know their values are for sale.

cacimbo said...

Life in the zone sounds scary.How long before the not sufficiently woke are dragged from their homes and ....

Leland said...

I think the move by SPD was excellent. You don't want them? Ok, their gone. Now, lets see Antifa for who they really are.

It will be more fun when they run out of food.

DanTheMan said...

Imagine: A bunch of armed Klansman take over a section of Seattle and declare they are now a new nation.

I think it's certain they would all be dead, wounded, or in jail the next day.

Rick said...

Rod Dreher highlights commentary from the group's sub-Reddit. Best line:

They kick some guys' ass and justify themselves by saying "force is sometimes necessary when people don't listen to their commands".

You don't say. I guess we're going to have to learn this civilization thing all over again.


I can't find the original to link, it's an image.

Marcus Bressler said...

Apparently Ken Jennings is not as smart as people might think.

THEOLDMAN

"Alex, Who are Gary Sinese, Patricia Heaton, Jon Voight and James Woods?"

Fritz said...

Cut off the power and water. They'll soon find the 19th century is not a fun as it seemed on TV.

gilbar said...

another iowan asked
What happens if 90% of tax payers, don't? I pay taxes for govt services.


if you're a bar owner, salon owner, Any owner of Any 'non-essential' business; WHY should you pay taxes?
When the government FORCED major parts of our economy to be black markets* did they think it through?

The Governments Only job now seems to be REFUSING SERVICE. They won't let people work; and yet they expect people to pay... Pay for Government people that won't work?
i think the best description of that is: Won't Work

Rick said...

iowan2 said...
If I lived in jurisdiction where the police are standing down, I'm not paying.


The state will always have enough manpower to size your property. Rioting and declarations of independence may not draw a response, but threaten their paychecks and they'll be there. Priorities you know.

Jersey Fled said...

My first thought was that if Seattle wouldn't deal with this, Trump should.

But then I thought: just let this simmer for awhile. Let the liberals who run the place (or thought they did) stew in their own juices. Let every city in this country see what happens when you put the anarchist thugs in charge.

Then, when the Mayor and Governor come weeping to him ON BENDED KNEE, fix it for them.

rehajm said...

@KenJennings
“Oh, if a police claim is contradicted by those involved, we should just not report it?” Uh...yes?


Of course everyone knows when you're the victim of extortion in a police free zone the safest thing to do is blab to the press.

TreeJoe said...

We saw this with Occupy Wall Street. The local government basically supported these "Autonomous Zones" and they quickly descended into places where theft and violent crime were common place, property rights were considered quaint, there was no organizing force, it was invaded by mentally ill homeless, there was poor sanitation, and logistics for food/power fell down quickly.

Sometimes......SOMETIMES.....you let your enemy overstretch themselves rather than attack them head on where they are strongest.

In the meantime, local people and businesses lose out.

Kevin said...

Jeff Bezos could not be reached for comment.

Kevin said...

They should take over the Amazon fulfillment centers.

Shut down Amazon Prime.

Bring white America to its knees.

Then we’d find out what Bezos really thinks.

MayBee said...

Let's talk about those horrible Michigan protesters again.

whitney said...

There are people that have homes and live in that area. Where are they? or perhaps there white people and no one cares

Bruce Hayden said...

“Shouldn't they vote or at least get a show of hands to confirm support? Maybe they just plan to be autonomous with no outside funding. I'm skeptical that everyone is in agreement for this zone “

Why? AntiFA at least, are fairly avowed communists, Stalinist in the 1930s, more Maoist now. Democracy for them is mere window dressing, at least until they manage to establish their earthly utopia (or die of starvation, as is happening now in Venezuela).

CHAZ seems headed that way, with a food crisis the first day (the resident homeless population stole their food supply, and they were begging for more, but it had to be vegan).

Money Manger said...

A good historical comparison is the Anabaptist takeover of Munster in 1534. Personally I look forward to the reappearance of hanging punishment cages.

Big Mike said...

I understand the Autonomous Zone had its first case of “police” brutality last night, with Esteemed Leader Raz Simone personally using a beat down to educate a graffiti artist about the new order. Will there be protests about violation of the graffiti artist’s civil rights? Didn’t think so.

Bushman of the Kohlrabi said...

If there’s any Wisconsin community that deserves a warlord, it’s Madison.

DanTheMan said...

>>Shouldn't they vote or at least get a show of hands to confirm support?

You can vote yourself into communism. You have to shoot your way out.

Big Mike said...

Perhaps Mark Kelly can come up from Arizona to grab all those AK47s in the Autonomous Zone?

Todd said...

I'm sure I have seen this movie before... I remember, Lord of the Flies!

Jersey Fled said...

By the way, I just found pictures of actual Boogaloo boys in action.

Inga was right after all.

<a href="https://theawesomedaily.com/32-pictures-that-prove-the-hawaiian-shirt-is-the-best-shirt-in-the-world/>link </a>

Brian said...

I wonder what those businesses will be saying when the trucks stop delivering. From what I've seen of the barricades they seemed to be pretty permanent. Hard to do deliveries from 6 blocks away.

And if they do let them in, whats to stop the trucks from being looted? At some point the trucks stop coming.

Don't need troops to quell this insurrection. Logistics will take care of it.

Trump will let this go on a long time, all while pointing out how terrible it is that the governor and mayor are allowing it to happen.

Ann, you should post their list of demands. For being an autonomous collective they sure do want the city and state to do a lot of stuff for them.

Yancey Ward said...

Trump shouldn't do anything, and I don't think he would. This is the Democrats' mess to deal with- the mayor and the governor have the power, the means, and need to deal with it...or not.

It is an interesting experiment I would like to see play out through the Summer. Jennings is too quick to dismiss the story about levies being issued on the residents- the enclave has to have some sort of funding for food, electricity, etal. No doubt they have some outside funding, but that will dry up after about a month.

"Can I trust this not to happen in my city?"

Of course not. I expect to see sister enclaves to form in every city in America. What I expect to happen, though, is this- not every resident will want to be part of this new experiment, and the state of Washington and city of Seattle are going to get sued for civil rights violations.

Meade said...

"guard the barricades in shifts"

What they need is a wall. Maybe they could get Mexico to pay for it.

Kai Akker said...

--- Raz Simone, a local rapper with an AK-47 slung from his shoulder and a pistol attached to his hip, screamed, 'This is war!' into a white-and-red megaphone... Later in the night, Simone was filmed allegedly assaulting multiple protestors who disobeyed his orders, informing them that he was the 'police' now

Order your copy today of Fyodor J. Dostoevsky's latest novel, Crime and Possession. Read how an ambitious but unknown young idealist with limited talent and skills seized the opportunity to become the unlikely commissar of a radical utopia... only to become lost in the underground of his delusions and wreak havoc on his own allies -- and even on Sonya, the meek food coop cashier who loved him. How his clever pursuer from the local police Detectives brought him to a spiritual reckoning with his criminal past, using nothing more than a red hat and some manual dexterity, and led him to a reconciliation with ever-sacrificing Sonya and the possibility of redemption and a new life in the wilds of Redmond once his prison term was served. $29.95 from Amazin Books & Novelties, c/o Bezos, Box 871999 Washington Post.

Laslo Spatula said...

Mayor Durkin is on the ropes with the left.

As such, CHAZ will get food, water, electricity, etc: she cannot be seen as the one to destroy the tent-fort play-zone.

If things go wrong there it will be on account of The Man, and she cannot afford to be seen on the side of The Man.

Any negative news from the tent-forts will be smothered, so she only has room to go left.

Expect gluten-free vegan pizzas to be regularly delivered by trendy shops for their revolutionary-hip points. Hipsters will bring trinkets to the barricades as they take their righteous selfies for social media; clean needles will be supplied.

At this point she can only try to wait it out (while she is secretly supplying them, so it could be awhile) or to have Trump come in so she has him to blame.

I bet she is secretly hoping on the latter: Trump as Deus Ex Machina.

America needs a Deus Ex Machina right about now.

I am Laslo.

Bill, Republic of Texas said...

They reversed the barricades to shield the liberated streets and laid claim to several city blocks,

The anarchists are better at governing than the US government. At least they enforce they protect their border.

rehajm said...

They should take over the Amazon fulfillment centers.

They'd have to expand their zone to Bellevue.

Laslo Spatula said...

Jennings is the host of an upcoming new game show.

So he is tweeting his support of the left and making fun of the deplorables.

Good thing it is only the lefty-hipsters that watch TV game shows.

But he is setting up. for his cherished guest visit on Jimmy Kimmel perfectly.

I am Laslo.

RigelDog said...

Right now our daughter is in the long-distance interview process to get a job in Seattle, at Amazon headquarters. Looks like she'll get the job. I'm scared shitless for our country.

Rick said...

This is an opportunity for the University of Chicago and a handful of other universities. Roughly 80% of Americans think identity politics driven thought control is nonsense. The first University (or group of) to reject it forthrightly and move to a rational position is going to create a dominant brand. Think of the famous saying that Fox found a niche market - half the American public. The crazier the left gets (and reveals academia to be) the easier it becomes for some group to break away. Once the ice is broken the left can't compete, their cartel status is absolutely required for their model to exist. Once people have a choice about where their money goes the schools clinging to left radicalism will be effectively defunded by students choosing to go elsewhere.

C'mon Texas trustees, make your move.

AllenS said...

Please, President Trump, do not intervene in what's taking place in Seattle. Same thing if it happens in Madison WI. Voters need to see what happens when you don't use your head when you vote, but rely on your emotions.

Mike Sylwester said...

Washington state will be in play in the 2020 election.

Trump might win more than 40 states.

MartyH said...

Why is the FD helping these insurrectionists out?

Sally327 said...

Protesting is easy, governing is hard. It's also not as much fun. It's tedious and thankless and never ending.

I did like that mention in the NY Times article about a hot dog stand getting paid in "US Dollars". You mean the "protestors" don't have the next Alexander Hamilton already at work creating a new financial system? Maybe the 23 year old with a stethoscope around his neck playing Dr. Dogood, he could handle that on the side.

Gregory said...

I work at Amazon, a few blocks from the so-called CHAZ (Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone).

What's happening there is a demonstration by the Seattle Police Department. The SPD is at 80% of budgeted staffing, and they can't fill even 50% of each new recruiting class. Their existing workforce is being siphoned off by the suburban communities that surround Seattle. Those communities are well funded (lots of Amazon/Microsoft/Boeing employee money), have good schools, low crime, and a general respect for the law. It's surprising that any police officer would want to put up with the harassment they get from the Seattle hipster/protestor community and the hostility they get from the mayor and city council.

The East Precinct neighborhood was quiet when the SPD methodically abandoned the building, literally leaving the keys in the door. They CHOSE to do this, to send a message to the city.

RNB said...

Enjolras breathes a (posthumous) sigh of relief, having been supplanted as "The Worst Revolutionary Leader Evar."

Saint Croix said...

Yesterday the governor of Washington said he had no idea what was going on.

What a bizarre lie!

Gusty Winds said...

They tweeted out that the homeless people the first or second night stole the food. Delicious.

Jupiter said...

"At least it's an example: Don't do this in your city. (Can I trust this not to happen in my city?)"

Judging by those lovely murals on the plywood over the broken windows of your slightly wealthier fellow citizens, no. You are just waiting for your Raz Simone to come along.

J said...

What happens legally if someone in this zone manages to eliminate one of the new warlords?

Rick.T. said...

Do you hear the people sing?
Singing the song of angry men?
It is the music of the people
Who will not be slaves again!
When the beating of your heart
Echoes the beating of the drums
There is a life about to start
When tomorrow comes!

Will you join in our crusade?
Who will be strong and stand with me?
Beyond the barricade
Is there a world you long to see?

Then join in the fight
That will give you the right to be free!

DanTheMan said...

>>Raz Simone, a local rapper with an AK-47 slung from his shoulder and a pistol attached to his hip, screamed, 'This is war!' into a white-and-red megaphone

Remember when:
- Bearing an assault rifle or a handgun in public was the act of a dangerous lunatic?
- Disobeying a government lockdown order was selfishly endangering millions of lives?
- Protesters were really Russian agents and white supremacists?
- First responders were all brave heroes of the pandemic?

Those days are long gone... it's been almost two entire weeks now.

Matt Sablan said...

"This can be expected there, unless Trump rolls the troops into Seattle, which until now I opposed."

-- I was always lukewarm to the idea, saying, "until the rioters act like an enemy army, you can't treat them like an enemy army. They don't have the organization or means to take and control territory, so this should be dealt with like a police action."

I've, yet again, been proven wrong.

Tommy Duncan said...

Is this America under Democrat rule? Fake "free zones" where the occupying force is fed and provided electricity, sanitation services, water and health care by the displaced taxpayers? How will this work on a national scale?

Butkus51 said...

declare war and nuke em

thats when things got real

JAORE said...

Federalism!

Trump should stay back except for highlighting what is happening.

Let Seattle be the example for the highlighting the insanity. Yeah some local "innocents" will be harmed. (Has anyone even noticed the 17 or so people who have been killed in those "mostly peaceful" protests?) Too bad. The City officials don't care,why should the rest of us?

Just like Trump wisely did not declare insurrection about sanctuary cities, he should leave this one to fester. After all lots of locals have been harmed by sanctuary cities and no one seems to care.

Seattle voted these clowns in. Let them wait for the next election cycle where I fully expect the locals to vote them BACK in or substitute clown clones.

It will never change until it hurts.

Lawrence Person said...

The leftwing madness of defunding the police and letting slip the dogs of anarchy will not work out well for those involved. Nor for the political party permitting it...

Matt Sablan said...

Wait -- are they placing levies on people in their free zone? So, the first thing they did was set up taxes and a border?

ALP said...

Alt news rag "The Stranger" is worth a look on this subject if you care to visit:

https://www.thestranger.com/slog/2020/06/11/43888539/an-exceedingly-chill-day-at-the-capitol-hill-autonomous-zone

News that SPD wants the zone back:

https://www.thestranger.com/slog/2020/06/10/43885152/slog-pm-spd-wants-autonomous-zone-back-ag-ferguson-demands-police-accountability-nascar-bans-confederate-flag

ALP said...

Laslo Spatula: "Expect gluten-free vegan pizzas to be regularly delivered by trendy shops for their revolutionary-hip points. Hipsters will bring trinkets to the barricades as they take their righteous selfies for social media; clean needles will be supplied."

Hilarious, spot on, worth repeating. But where is the kale and microbrew?

Churchy LaFemme: said...

It's come to this.

Can Of Cheese for Hunter said...

Leftwing Seattle is secretly filled with rightwingers!

DanTheMan said...

>>What happens legally if someone in this zone manages to eliminate one of the new warlords?

That person would get charged with murder. Remember, we're only *pretending* this is not part of the city of Seattle.

Can Of Cheese for Hunter said...

I feel bad for the good people who live there.
BUT - this is where democratic-progressive-socialism / anarchy-Antifa fascism is headed.

enjoy.

Can Of Cheese for Hunter said...

Let Seattle turn into an angry leftwing anarchist shit hole. Democracy!

tommyesq said...

I sort of hate to point this out, but these people are taking full advantage of the Second Amendment, and for the specific purpose that the Second Amendment exists - using force of arms to resist an oppressive government. I am not sure I agree with their underlying premises, at least to the full extent of such premises, but the Second Amendment was always, at its heart, a threat of armed rebellion as a hedge against an over-expansive state.

Static Ping said...

Always good to know that Ken Jennings is on the case. Game show celebrity Twitter news is the best news!

That said, it probably would have been more believable if it has been Alex Trebek.

Sebastian said...

"Can I trust this not to happen in my city?"

A rhetorical question, no doubt.

But you still have to decide to see what you are observing.

And then you, and the Althouses of America, have a choice to make: submit or stand up.

rhhardin said...

Speaking of barricades
Les Barricades Mysterieuses

cacimbo said...

A major American city had multiple blocks taken over by Antifa four days ago - NPR has yet to report on the issue.CNN mentions the "occupation/protest" briefly in one paragraph in a story on how the Seattle Mayor is criticizing Trump.CNN also states there is no evidence Antifa is behind the occupation.

Yet media truly believe Trump is the reason the public hates them.

Paul said...

And the liberal Governor of Washington State along with the Mayor of Seattle are waiting for... BATMAN!!! Yea, Batman will save them cause they won't save themselves by, you know, growing a pair.

But Batman will just watch Seattle burn... He don't like pussies either.

Matt Sablan said...

"I sort of hate to point this out, but these people are taking full advantage of the Second Amendment, and for the specific purpose that the Second Amendment exists - using force of arms to resist an oppressive government."

-- That is so massively incorrect. They can still opt to vote these people out. They're not targeting the government; they're targeting their fellow citizens.

mezzrow said...

They should take over the Amazon fulfillment centers.

Shut down Amazon Prime.

Bring white America to its knees.

Then we’d find out what Bezos really thinks.


Honey, where's the goddamned toaster I ordered yesterday?

What?

MD Greene said...

cacimbo is right.

The "media," even in Portland, are ignoring this because it doesn't make Trump look bad. That's their sole raison d'etre this year.



Oso Negro said...

Mr. Scoggins said in an interview. “We’ve been working step by step on how to build a relationship, build trust in small things, so we can figure this out together.”..

Dear Mr. Scoggins,
It's difficult to build relationships and collaborate with people whose motto is "fuck you, we do what we want". I am disappointed that a Fire Chief would not be more practically grounded.

Matt Sablan said...

The Fire Chief has no power, especially if his mayor won't provide armed escorts. He's doing what he can, and what he can do is bend the knee to the new regime.

Michael K said...

Blogger Leland said...

I think the move by SPD was excellent. You don't want them? Ok, their gone. Now, lets see Antifa for who they really are.

It will be more fun when they run out of food.


They already have but the Mayor will be shipping pizzas tomorrow, I'm sure. The SPD shift to suburbs has been going on in LA for years now. Jack Dunphy retired and now works for a suburban city. Baltimore PD is less than 50% staffed. Chicago will be next.

gerry said...

What they need is a wall. Maybe they could get Mexico to pay for it.

Seattle could use Portland city hall as a model.

Judging by those lovely murals on the plywood over the broken windows of your slightly wealthier fellow citizens, no. You are just waiting for your Raz Simone to come along.

It's always nice when local celebrities encourage activities that require erection of protective plywood window coverings with virtual tours and witty comments. It's so Rad Chic!

AZ Bob said...

Building a wall around the Warlord's wall is a simple but effective approach that led to Julius Caesar's defeat of Vercingetorix and the Gauls.

GRW3 said...

I did have to laugh at the tweet from one of the free state organizers asking supporters to bring them more food supplies because the homeless people they invited into their are took all the food they had. LOL... Logistics problems kill more armies than bad generals.

Wince said...

They reversed the barricades to shield the liberated streets and laid claim to several city blocks, now known as the “Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone.”

One day burning the Auto Zone, the next declaring an "Autonomous Zone".

Can Of Cheese for Hunter said...

Inslee?

Never heard of it!

"As antifa militants have taken over six blocks of Seattle’s Capitol Hill district, calling it the “Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone” or the “People’s Republic of Capitol Hill,” Gov. Jay Inslee (D-Wash.) laughed about this open rebellion, saying he hadn’t heard about it. Inslee added that the National Guard is demobilizing, and his chief of staff suggested that even if an open rebellion had broken out on the streets of Seattle, it would be up to “local authorities” to fight it."

Inga said...

“I sort of hate to point this out, but these people are taking full advantage of the Second Amendment, and for the specific purpose that the Second Amendment exists - using force of arms to resist an oppressive government. I am not sure I agree with their underlying premises, at least to the full extent of such premises, but the Second Amendment was always, at its heart, a threat of armed rebellion as a hedge against an over-expansive state.”

You have a legitimate point. The boogaloos in Michigan’s Open Up protests actually stopped a state legislature in session because they were there brandishing their big guns to intimidate the legislators. How is that any different to what these anarchists are doing in Seattle? Both are instances of insurrection and the state governments should not allow it to happen. Men with big guns should not be allowed to intimidate local governments. It’s going to come to bullets flying when idiots with guns think that the 2nd Amendment will protect them if they decide they are pissed off about what the government is doing or not doing.

The Cracker Emcee Refulgent said...

"One day burning the Auto Zone, the next declaring an "Autonomous Zone"."

They're hoping for corporate sponsorship. The Auto Zone Autonomous Zone!

Please, President Trump! Don't intervene. These people are campaigning for you.

After 10 days up there, dealing with violent protests every night, my Washington National Guard son is coming home today. He says the attitude of the police and the Guard is, "let it burn". The people of Seattle asked for it. They got it.

Matt Sablan said...

"You have a legitimate point."

-- No. They do not.

"The boogaloos in Michigan’s Open Up protests actually stopped a state legislature in session because they were there brandishing their big guns to intimidate the legislators. How is that any different to what these anarchists are doing in Seattle?"

-- Well, one group didn't burn down a good chunk of the city, leave multiple dead bodies, and secede from the state while extorting American citizens trapped in their new "free zone" for protection while physically beating people who broke their rules while denying free travel to Americans entering or leaving the area.

Sam L. said...

"At least it's an example: Don't do this in your city. (Can I trust this not to happen in my city?)" My bet is NO, you CAN'T trust that not to happen.

Jamie said...

I can see the 2A point, a little - they believe they are fighting an oppressive government.

Where it falls apart is that they're demanding that the oppressive government supply them with all sorts of things while they stand in armed open rebellion against it. Did the revolutionaries of colonial America, once they had declared their independence, demand that the British provide them with governmental services? (Of course it further falls apart on the grounds another commenter mentioned above - they only feel the government is oppressing them; there's no actual evidence that it is.

bagoh20 said...

Relax. Madison has gun control.

n.n said...

actually stopped a state legislature in session because they were there brandishing their big guns to intimidate the legislators

The legislature took a knee to protest civil rights. #TheirChoice

That said, respect our reproductive rites or the children get Planned/scalped/cannibalized anyway.

Inga said...

I find it ironic how the 2nd Amendment proponents are surprised that anti government people on the left actually figured out they could do the same thing that anti government people on the right have been doing, which is using their weapons to try to intimidate the government or those they disagree with. All the brandishing of weapons at protests should’ve been a warning that it would come to this. I saw it coming in full view in Michigan. All you gun enthusiasts, you are seeing the objects of your obsessions being turned against you. I’ve been reading for years now how the rightists have all the guns and the leftists shouldn’t forget it.

Guns at protests should be outlawed, it’s only a small step from guns being used for intimidation at a protest to guns being used for insurrection when protestors go down the insurrection path.

Using weapons, such as arson, looting, cars ramming into crowds, Molotov cocktails and BIG GUNS. are not a part of a peaceful protest. The Constitution allows for the voicing of grievances, but not the overthrow of government. The 2nd Amendment coming back to bite some folks in the ass.

n.n said...

Apparently Ken Jennings is not as smart as people might think.

Intelligence and bad judgment are not exclusive.

Inga said...

I said...
“You have a legitimate point."

You responded to me saying...
“No. They do not.”

Who is this “they”? I was addressing my response to the commenter Tommeyesque.

Tommy Duncan said...

JAORE said:

"Has anyone even noticed the 17 or so people who have been killed in those "mostly peaceful" protests?"

Does anyone have a firm count for how many have been killed? Based on my Internet searches the media is doing their best to make sure no one has an accurate tally.

bagoh20 said...

If it has not already happened, I suspect a sniper has the new warlord in his sights, waiting.

Static Ping said...

AZ Bob, that Julius Caesar example is true in the sense that he won, but he very well could have lost. Walling in a fortress as part of a siege is a perfectly viable strategy, but with any siege you have to worry about a relieving force coming up behind you. That's exactly what happened to Julius Caesar, but he had enough warning to put up his own wall to protect himself, making it a siege within a siege. If you believe Julius's account - he was not beyond lying whenever it suited him - the Gauls did eventually break through his defenses and it was very touch and go whether he and his army were going to survive.

Mark said...

White supremacist militia types -- a handful in the entire country -- go and set up an autonomous area in the middle of nowhere and mostly mind their own business, and everyone goes nuts.

Leftists do the same thing in the middle of a major city and people yawn.

PM said...

Let it happen, Seattle. Don't make a move. Don't interfere. Let it bloom into whatever it's destined to be. These people have put a stake in the ground. Let's all watch.

Jeff said...

The obligatory autonomous collective.

LCB said...

Use troop to isolate them. Starve them out. Cut off the water. Without water, 3 or 4 days max.

reader said...

This makes Cliven Bundy pop into my mind.

How does the media coverage differ between the two sides of the same crazy coin.

DanTheMan said...

I've said this before, but I believe it bears repeating...

If the police were the monsters these anarchists claim they are, they wouldn't dare taking over a police station and claiming a section of the city as theirs.

They can because, while protesting police violence, they know they are in no danger whatsoever from the police.

Bruce Hayden said...

“ they only feel the government is oppressing them; there's no actual evidence that it is.”

I read a theory somewhere last night that the middle class is bifurcating, along useful and parasite lines. These are mostly people who went to college, believing that they would get middle class jobs, with job security and the ability to get married, have kids, and raise them to follow them. But they ended up with liberal arts degrees in history or English, Gender Studies, etc, that society doesn’t value. So, instead of the semi secure jobs and futures that their parents had, and strived to give them, they ended up as baristas, waiters, etc, or just living in their parents’ basements, playing video games, and maybe protesting a bit for entertainment. Meanwhile, business and most STEM grads find the types of stable jobs and careers that they all envisioned when going off to college.

Their problem is not that the government oppresses them, but that they are not valued by our economy. Baristas are much more easily replaceable than plumbers, despite their MFAs in French Literature. That is their oppression - that their skills are not economically valuable, and are easily replaceable.

Note, BTW, that a good part of the “Defund The Police” that they are demanding turns out to be that government funds for policing be reallocated to activists, social workers, and others whose value to the economy is minimal.

DanTheMan said...

>>they believe they are fighting an oppressive government.

So they should all go to work on July 3rd, and refuse the day off which many companies are offering. They wouldn't want to celebrate the founding of our racist, oppressive government.

Drago said...

Inga: "You have a legitimate point. The boogaloos in Michigan’s Open Up protests actually stopped a state legislature in session because they were there brandishing their big guns to intimidate the legislators."

No, they weren't brandishing weapons. A lie you keep pushing purposely like your Trump said to inject lysol lies and 4 years worth of russia collusion lies.

Brandishing a weapon in MI is against the law and can result in up to 90 days in jail.

The MI protesters were simply carrying their weapons per legal requirements, as they are allowed to do.

Zero anti-lockdown protesters were cited for brandishing their weapons. Zero.

Inga's time would be better spent returning to her previous lies about Brett Kavanaugh being a gang rapist and Carter Page being a russian spy.

Drago said...

Matt Sablan: "Well, one group didn't burn down a good chunk of the city, leave multiple dead bodies, and secede from the state while extorting American citizens trapped in their new "free zone" for protection while physically beating people who broke their rules while denying free travel to Americans entering or leaving the area."

Oh, Inga has an answer for that!

And it rhymes with "guys with hawaiian shirts......"

Kyzer SoSay said...

$700 will get you a very nice 9mm pistol + spare magazine, a holster for it, 200 rounds of practice ammo, a pack of 10 SnapCaps (fake bullets for dry-fire practice, available on Amazon), and 50 rounds of hollow-point defensive ammo (if there's any left in stock).

Two range visits, 100 rounds each, with at least an hour of dry fire practice in between and before. First time you go, don't worry so much about accuracy on your first few mags. Run the paper about 5 yards down the track, and take your time getting the feel of the firearm. As long as you're hitting the paper, you're doing alright. The point is to understand how to safely and effectively operate the tool. Many ranges have a "ladies night" where you can get personal instruction from the Range Officer (they'll often have many more RO's than normal supervising the range for just that purpose).

Think of it as a blogging opportunity. Maybe you'll find you enjoy it. If you enjoy it, you could buy a .22 target pistol and take up light-recoil plinking. Maybe you'll find you hate it, and you'll come to consider guns to be vulgar objects worthy of scorn. Or maybe you'll simply recognize it as a useful skill, practice one or twice a year, replace your defensive ammo every 3 years, and never give it much thought except for the sense of security in knowing that, in a home invasion, it's the burglars who oughta be scared.

PS - SnapCaps will wear out after awhile. Repeatedly cycling them through the firearm will eventually chip them, bend them, or take chunks out of the extractor groove. Luckily they're very inexpensive, so best practice is to replace them as soon as they show signs of failure. Failure to chamber? Toss it. Failure to extract? Toss it. Jamming in the magazine? Toss it. Buy a 10-pack, and once you've thrown out 5 or 6, order another 10. Rinse, repeat.

PPS - for $400-500, replace the words "very nice" in the first paragraph with "good". At $300, replace with "decent". Really not hard to afford.

Kyzer SoSay said...

"Well, one group didn't burn down a good chunk of the city, leave multiple dead bodies, and secede from the state while extorting American citizens trapped in their new "free zone" for protection while physically beating people who broke their rules while denying free travel to Americans entering or leaving the area."

Inga will steadfastly ignore those differences until it becomes impossible to do so, at which point she will simply scoff and describe them as "no big deal".

Because Inga.

walter said...

Gusty Winds said...They tweeted out that the homeless people the first or second night stole the food. Delicious.
--
Since this an era of reimagining things, I'm imagining Laslo and crew on an undercover op. The request for food donations offers another opportunity.
Consider extremely organic pies.

Inga opined...The boogaloos in Michigan’s Open Up protests actually stopped a state legislature in session because they were there brandishing their big guns to intimidate the legislators. How is that any different to what these anarchists are doing in Seattle?
--
By "boogaloos", you mean https://www.michiganunitedforliberty.com/
Did they decide to occupy it, make it their own. Shout "This is war!"?

Richard Dolan said...

The voters of Seattle put the uber-lefty mayor and city council in charge, as well as the uber-lefty governor. And the mayor and the rest of the city officials seem to be delighted with their version of Occupy Wall Street. (My office is close to the original one in lower Manhattan, and though it was a disgusting mess, it was also fairly easy to ignore.) So, having put those clowns in charge of the circus, the residents now to get enjoy the show.

exiledonmainstreet, green-eyed devil said...

Ken Jennings needs to protest the fact that the 3 best Jeopardy players are all white men, as is the host of Jeopardy. That clearly shows systemic racism. He and the others need to donate all of their game show earnings to BLM, or to the contestants of color who competed against him and lost.

Jim at said...

Trump needs to stay out of it. This is what the residents of Seattle voted for. Let them embrace it. Own it.

And not a penny of my tax dollars should be used to save them from it.

LIB.

Rick said...

CHAZ Demands

We also have economic demands that must be addressed.

We demand the de-gentrification of Seattle


Is there any doubt the left would characterize this "demand" as ethnic cleansing and proof of racism if the shoe were on the other foot?

Gk1 said...

Businesses will "self deport" and leave Seattle as insurance underwriters hike up premiums or cancel policies. You would have to be a horrible businessman to hang around if you managed to survive the last round of riots.

Jim at said...

And btw, Ken Jennings is a nasty, little leftwing shit.
Always has been.

Jim at said...

Washington state will be in play in the 2020 election.

Nope. Not a chance.

John henry said...

Re food

They say they want soy and oats. It would be cool if someone went out and dumped a dump truck load of soy deans into the zone.

And/or a truckload of oats, corn etc.

How does one even eat soy? In fact, what is "soy"?

I know the soybeans and I know them used as an ingredient in many foods. I don't think I've ever heard of eating soy or soy beans by themselves.

John Henry

Narr said...

In CHAZ, everyone will change their underwear every day. Underwear will be worn on the outside, so we can check.

Narr
Been here before, kids

Ron Winkleheimer said...

I don't know who the hell Ken Jennings is, but he is pretty gullible. Of course business owners whose business is located within the occupied area are going to deny they are being extorted to a member of the MSM. How can they know she won't rat them out? People who are being extorted often deny it to the police, they are afraid of reprisals.

Ron Winkleheimer said...

NSFW

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LonKGuS9uuQ

walter said...

"We demand that between now and the abolition of the SPD that each and every SPD officer turn on their body cameras, and that the body camera video of all Seattle police should be a matter of easily accessible public record."

Hmmm..but the replacement force?

PuertoRicoSpaceport.com said...

I'd be willing to bet a couple donuts that we will not see PDJT send in military troops. I think this is what the demonstrators want, for the imagery and that is why PDJT won't give it to them. We don't see him do anything more than threaten and bloviate. But that is just for show. What he will actually be doing, will not be visible and he won't be blamed for it.

The president has about 100 different SWAT teams at his disposal. These range from the FBI, Marshals, DEA to the Dept of Agriculture and the Railway Pension Administration. PDJT can thank Obama and predecessors for these teams.

They can go in heavy and confrontational but I suspect that they won't. They can also go in undercover and start identifying and picking off leaders one by one. We probably won't even hear about it. One minute they will be wandering around the zone agitating, the next minute people will be asking "Anyone seen Sam lately?" Possibly the agents will even spread rumors that Sam has defected and is ratting everyone out. Doesn't matter if it is true, only that people in the zone think it is.

Kind of like what happened with all the violent rioters. One day they were there burning down cities and looting. The next day they weren't and the protests because fairly peaceful.

In Minneapolis, the polices stopped a lot of cars where they found weapons of violence (I think the police chief called them) but the people all "escaped" I suspect that under a state of emergency order, which we are under, they can be held incommunicado by the feds for a while.

https://www.twincities.com/2020/05/31/st-paul-police-stop-cars-without-plates-find-tools-to-wreak-havoc-in-our-city-inside/

I trust Trump. You should too.

John Henry

DanTheMan said...

>>$700 will get you a very nice 9mm pistol

Citizens with handguns are not the answer to lawlessness. If you want to buy one for self defense, fine. If you want to fix the problem of lunatics being allowed to take over a chunk of a city, then they are not useful at all.

The government in Washington state has declined to enforce the laws of the state for purely political reasons.

That's the problem.

Again, let a bunch of skinheads and Klansman vandalize and wall off part of Tacoma, and declare it a White Enclave. They'd be met with immediate, overwhelming, and quite deadly force.


DanTheMan said...

>> Washington state will be in play in the 2020 election.

In a sane world, yes.

Right now, the world is not sane.

lb said...

Heading to the airport right now to pick up my kid who works in Seattle - has been working from home near Cap Hill. My guess is he will decide to take his skills elsewhere - what kind of governmental body let's people do this without any repercussions? Let them continue - if I owned property in that zone there would be one heck of a lawsuit being leveled against the "government" there.

Crazy World said...

Inga should send them a care package.

tommyesq said...

Jamie said (Of course it further falls apart on the grounds another commenter mentioned above - they only feel the government is oppressing them; there's no actual evidence that it is.

I didn't mean to suggest that I think they are right in their grievances (or, for that matter, that they have been open and honest with what their grievances are - I really couldn't say). I do, however, believe that government, both federal and state, has become an enormous monster with its tentacles in all aspects of everyone's lives, usually through unelected and unaccountable bureaucrats on whom all elected officials have dumped actual lawmaking and enforcement responsibilities to free their own time up for endless fundraising and graft, and that this has resulted in some very negative consequences for Americans in general and poor minority communities even more so. I do not think that all cops are bad or racist, but I think you are fooling yourself if you believe that none, or even vanishingly few, have some issues with the black community.

As to Inga's point re the right wing protesters bringing guns to the open-the-country protests, I agree that this was done in no small part to intimidate the police and government into not interfering with the protest. I would argue that this is also something legitimately considered by the founders in adopting the Second Amendment, and that absent the armed citizens, Governor Whitmer would have ordered action shutting the protests down. If you are a left-winger who took issue with the clearing of Lafayette Square through use of force, you should be in full agreement with the armed protesters at the Michigan protest who prevented a similar occurrence.

I tend towards libretarianism, but I do try to apply it equally.

chickelit said...

Jim at said...Trump needs to stay out of it. This is what the residents of Seattle voted for. Let them embrace it. Own it.

I agree. The Washington Star National Guard or whatever is under the Governor's purview should respond first. Ultimately, the people of Washington State can resolve this. But do they want to? It doesn't look like it from a distance.

Bob said...

Saint Croix said, "What a bizarre lie!"

No, it wasn't a lie. The Governor of Washington proved during the Democratic presidential debates he doesn't know what's going on.

Bob said...

bagoh20 said, "If it has not already happened, I suspect a sniper has the new warlord in his sights, waiting."

Funny, I was thinking something similar just before I found your comment. Someone is gonna shoot that mofo for sure.

RigelDog said...

Gregory said: I work at Amazon, a few blocks from the so-called CHAZ (Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone).}}}

Serious question, Gregory, if you see this. Should our charming, independent-thinking, apolitical, non-woke daughter move to Seattle to take a job at Amazon headquarters? It would probably not be a permanent move but she lost her job here on the east coast due to Covid and is interested in having a different experience for a few years. I'm wondering if she would be physically safe, and if it's likely that she'd have to affirmatively declare her support for bullshit causes in order to survive at Amazon.

Inga said...

“By "boogaloos", you mean https://www.michiganunitedforliberty.com/ Did they decide to occupy it, make it their own. Shout "This is war!"?”

Virus restrictions fuel anti-government ‘boogaloo’ movement

“One user said Whitmer should be “guillotined” after another suggested another governor should be hanged from a noose, according to a screenshot captured by the Tech Transparency Project research initiative.

The coronavirus pandemic has become a catalyst for the “boogaloo” movement because the stay-at-home orders have “put a stressor on a lot of very unhappy people,” said J.J. MacNab, a fellow at George Washington University’s Program on Extremism. MacNab said their rhetoric goes beyond discussions about fighting virus restrictions – which many protesters brand as “tyranny” – to talking about killing FBI agents or police officers “to get the war going.”

“They are far more graphic and far more specific in their threats than I’ve seen in a long time,” she said.

The violent rhetoric is dramatic escalation for a online phenomenon with its roots in meme culture and steeped in dark humor. Its name comes from the panned 1984 movie “Breakin’ 2: Electric Boogaloo,” which has become slang for any bad sequel. Another derivation of “boogaloo” is “big luau” – hence the Hawaiian garb.”

Then there are the three boogaloos who were arrested in Nevada for their firebombing plots.

LAS VEGAS – Three Nevada men with ties to the anti-government “boogaloo” movement, a loose group of right-wing extremists advocating the overthrow of the U.S. government, have been arrested on terrorism-related charges in what authorities say was a conspiracy to spark violence during recent protests in Las Vegas.

Federal prosecutors say the three white men with U.S. military experience are accused of conspiring to carry out a plan that began in April in conjunction with protests to reopen businesses closed because of the coronavirus and later sought to capitalize on protests over George Floyd, the Minneapolis man who died in police custody.

They were arrested Saturday on the way to a protest in downtown Las Vegas after filling gas cans at a parking lot and making Molotov cocktails in glass bottles, according to a copy of the criminal complaint.

The Las Vegas FBI Joint Terrorism Taskforce began investigating Lynam and Parshall in April 2020 based on a report that the men were planning terrorist activity, according to the complaint.

Inga said...

“Inga should send them a care package.”

Why? Does it sound by what I’ve written that I agree with what they’re doing?

tcrosse said...

bagoh20 said, "If it has not already happened, I suspect a sniper has the new warlord in his sights, waiting."

Under Obama the use of drones to deal with turbulent nuisances was refined, US citizens or not.

Leora said...

And the store owners in Little Italy never paid the Mafia to protect their stores. And John Gotti's neighbors in Howard Beach all loved him.

walter said...

Inga,
There was no connection to of violence or threats by https://www.michiganunitedforliberty.com/ made in that excerpt/article.
Instead, they are filing suits and helping petition for Whitmer's recall.
https://twitter.com/miunited4lib?lang=en
Oh..get under the covers when you see this:
Michigan United For Liberty, a grassroots organization of over 9,000 members in Michigan, has canceled its Michiganders' Marketplace “Sunday Funday” freedom celebration at the Michigan Capitol, which had been scheduled for 1pm on Sunday the 31st.

The decision was immediately made when the group was informed that another group of demonstrators plans to descend on the Capitol that same day, ostensibly to protest the killing of George Floyd by Minneapolis police officer Derek Chauvin.

Despite Chauvin’s immediate firing, subsequent arrest, and the President announcing a Justice Department investigation into the incident, rioters in Minneapolis robbed and burned innocent businesses to the ground, overran a police precinct, assaulted officers, and committed other acts of senseless violence.

Riots have broken out in numerous other major U.S. cities.

“We will not allow our message of peaceful, law-abiding, positive resistance to be conflated with the violent and unlawful actions of unrelated groups, and we cannot ask our members and supporters to put themselves in harm’s way,” said MUFL spokesman Adam de Angeli. “We will not be associated with political terrorism in any manner.”

While Michigan United For Liberty acknowledges the seriousness of the issue of police brutality, the group is committed to – and must remain focused on – ending Governor Whitmer’s unconstitutional lockdown orders that are destroying the lives and livelihoods of Michiganders with every passing day. Regrettably, the organization sees no possibility of its positive message being clearly conveyed with another protest happening at the same place and time.

Instead, Michigan United For Liberty encourages its members carry out the spirit of the scheduled event – opposing and defying the governor’s unconstitutional lockdown orders – on Sunday by going to church, getting together with friends, and being productive members of society.

“Our movement honors the tradition of Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., who understood that only through non-violence can we achieve justice,” de Angeli continued. “We had hoped to send that message once again with an upbeat freedom celebration on Sunday afternoon, but given the circumstances, it’s clearly better that we simply move forward, roll out our legislative program and grassroots leadership program, and steer clear of this danger."
--
Holy hell!

Gregory said...

RigelDog said:

"Serious question, Gregory, if you see this. Should our charming, independent-thinking, apolitical, non-woke daughter move to Seattle to take a job at Amazon headquarters?"

Absolutely. Amazon spent >$5 Billion building out space for 65,000 employees to work in the former warehouse district known as South Lake Union. Every building has 24-hour security, and every inch of the campus is watched 24-7 by serious professionals who know what they are doing. Jeff Bezos gets criticized for many things, but being a poor investor isn't one of them.

And don't worry about her having to endorse the nonsense. No one will ask.

Churchy LaFemme: said...

The president has about 100 different SWAT teams at his disposal. These range from the FBI, Marshals, DEA to the Dept of Agriculture and the Railway Pension Administration. PDJT can thank Obama and predecessors for these teams.

Does he?

Were I he, I would certainly hesitate to ask the FBI to do anything significant, and I suspect the rest aren't much better.

Scott Patton said...

We're an autonomous collective! Timeless humor.

Sydney said...

I have family there. They are so woke they see nothing wrong going on except that the police used tear gas and that's why 'the people' revolted. Kids parading around as adults- is how I view my family at this point.

I have children living in the Capitol Hill neighborhood. Your relatives sound like mine.

DeepRunner said...

Ken Jennings...aren't his 15 minutes up yet?

tommyesq said...

The president has about 100 different SWAT teams at his disposal. These range from the FBI, Marshals, DEA to the Dept of Agriculture and the Railway Pension Administration. PDJT can thank Obama and predecessors for these teams.

Why the F**K does the Railway Pension Administration even have a single firearm, much less a SWAT team???