May 8, 2020

"'They’re coming to take your gas stoves' is a central message of Californians for Balanced Energy Solutions (C4BES), an astroturf group formed to push back against electrification in California...."

"It’s all part of a large, broad, and well-funded campaign against electrification being waged by the [gas] industry. APGA has the Media and Public Outreach Committee, set up by the industry with the goal of 'winning the communications war' over electrification. AGA has the Sustainable Growth Committee and the Building and Energy Codes Committee fighting against electrification.... This industry campaign... comes in response to a rapidly spreading grassroots 'all-electric movement' that has dozens of towns, cities, and counties passing new building codes or ordinances to encourage electrification or, as in Berkeley, California’s case, simply prohibiting gas hookups in new buildings. It’s getting ugly. When the city council in San Luis Obispo planned a vote on an energy code to encourage electrification in buildings, the leader of the opposition (a worker at a gas utility and a board member of C4BES) threatened to bus in protestors and spread coronavirus at the city council meeting.... [F]or the individual homeowner, as for society at large, managing harmful pollution eventually starts to seem a little silly when equally effective, affordable, and pollution-free alternatives are available. It’s time to start making new buildings all-electric and switching out all those existing gas appliances, including gas stoves, for electric alternatives."

From "Gas stoves can generate unsafe levels of indoor air pollution/An accumulating body of research suggests gas stoves are a health risk" (Vox).

"They’re coming to take your gas stoves" is the message, we're told, but the article shows that the message is true. The question is how unhealthful is a gas stove and how sound is the belief that a gas stove is better. People are into seeing the blue flame, so there's a psychological advantage. That psychological advantage can be destroyed by the fear of pollution. All of that belongs properly to the realm of advertising and propaganda.

We've addressed this topic before. A year ago I blogged a NYT article called "Your Gas Stove Is Bad for You and the Planet/To help solve the climate crisis, we need to electrify everything."

110 comments:

Michael K said...

Yes, all that electricity just comes out of the wall. You plug that doodad in and away we go !

TrespassersW said...

California liberal logic: Human excrement and used hypodermic needles in the streets is less important than gas stoves.

wendybar said...

Progressives acting regressively.

Automatic_Wing said...

First, it's fucking ridiculous to think that you can control the climate by forcing people to use electric stoves. Do people really believe that electricity generation doesn't put those scary "greenhouse gases" into the environment?

Second, yes, gas stoves have significant advantages over electric stoves. If you're doing anything with a wok, for instance, an electric stove is not going to cut it. So let people buy what works for them.

wendybar said...

Pretty soon, they won't allow you to eat any cooked food. No meat...just grass. Mooooo!!!!

Ray - SoCal said...

And what of gas heating?

It’s a lot cheaper than electric heating.

This is more environmental virtual signaling.

D. said...

CH4+2O2>>CO2+2H2O

Josephbleau said...

The elite man has overtaken the common man in terms of stupidity.

buwaya said...

It is of course a silly fantasy.
Electric heating is vastly less energy and infrastructure efficient than gas.

Besides this, if the idea is that there is some emissions-free way to generate enough electricity to take over the natural gas system, other than nuclear, which California is shutting down as well... that is simply cretinous.

Your rulers are of subhuman intelligence, or superhuman evil. One of the two.

buwaya said...

You understand that this too is a front in that caste war of yours. You will have to deal with them someday. It will be very ugly.

I'm Not Sure said...

"The question is how unhealthful is a gas stove and how sound is the belief that a gas stove is better."

How sound is the belief that an electric stove is better? Here's a novel idea- let people decide for themselves which they prefer.

Lyle said...

Thank god for gas stoves a after strong storm or hurricane blows through.

PluralThumb said...

No coal stoves? No propain stoves?
Camp fires?
Gas stoves are fairly affordable. California is going to power stoves with wind and solar energy. Just in case, an emergency hamster in a wheel to charge my 3V cell phone battery.

Mike (MJB Wolf) said...

These fuckers never stop. Nothing i do is “killing the planet” least of all cooking with clean efficient natural gas. Water vapor is the biggest by product. Not carbon. So I’m kind of conditioning my indoor air, humidifying, as I cook. The US is swimming in cheap low-emission natural gas. The insane environazis can fuck off.

Sebastian said...

""They’re coming to take your gas stoves" is the message, we're told, but the article shows that the message is true."

Right. Progs actually want to control your life. Progs actually want to use government to coerce you into things you don't want to do. Against progs, you don't need propaganda: just stating the truth clarifies their essential nature.

"The question is how unhealthful is a gas stove and how sound is the belief that a gas stove is better.'

That is not "the question": that is how prog propaganda would like you to think.

"People are into seeing the blue flame"

Huh? As in so many things, Althouse knows best why people like what they like.

Dave Begley said...

Why can't people be free to choose what kind of stove they want? What's wrong with pro choice?

And any serious cook knows gas is the best.

ftv2 said...

California has some of the highest rates for electricity in the nation. Then add on that they (the electric companies) are also incredibly inefficient and their power lines have caused numerous fires in this state too.They want to get rid of fire places too...

Howard said...

Gas stoves do cause indoor air pollution. Quite possibly it is harmful to some people in some situations. The solution is simple when you're using your gas stove just run the ventilation Hood.

I'm Full of Soup said...

Makes it easier too for the govt to restrict your energy use and that may be coming to your neighborhood soon if your state has a loony lefty Denm governor.

PatHMV said...

Living in Louisiana and subject to regular hurricanes, I can tell you that the natural gas distribution system is much more robust and reliable than the electrical grid. After Hurricane Katrina, some areas were without electricity for 30 days or more. I know of no areas who lost their natural gas. Many homes here installed natural gas-powered whole-house generators for emergency backup power.

In a world all too prone to natural disasters, why do so many "experts" who know what's "best for us" keep wanting to reduce us to single points of failure in so many areas?

Howard said...

The use of shity old wood burning stoves causes horrific air pollution in some rural areas of California. Burning carbohydrates is popular with deplorables. since the most the people that are harmed by them are deplorable then it really doesn't matter because they welcome the pollution and wear it like a badge of honor.

After spending a lifetime and environmental cleanup, most of which was an overreaction or unnecessary, you see how The regulators strain the gnats and let camels pass.

Fernandinande said...

The most efficient stove would directly run off the heat of a small nuclear reactor, or perhaps an electric stove powered by a radioisotope thermo-electric generator.

Rick said...

a rapidly spreading grassroots 'all-electric movement'

By "grassroots" they mean well funded left wing activists looking to control others so they can claim to have accomplished something.

Freder Frederson said...

I know of no areas who lost their natural gas.

Well you just weren't paying attention. Parts of New Orleans didn't have gas well into 2006 (granted, the electric was out even longer in some parts of the city). Plus, broken gas lines caused lots of fires in New Orleans.

I'm Full of Soup said...

Here in Philly burbs, the local utility is actually beefing up and expanding its natural gas services.

Fernandinande said...

"People are into seeing the blue flame"

Huh? As in so many things, Althouse knows best why people like what they like.


Yeah - huh?

When I read that I thought of the Blue Flame land-speed record vehicle, just like everybody else did fersure.

buwaya said...

This is not about specific regulations, or the enforcers of regulation, or activists and politics, as politics.

All of those things are fallout from your fundamental conflict, of peoples and cultures. Of course you will have regulation that is divorced from reality - that is simply the nature of the caste of people who own those institutions.

They can't help it, any more than wasps can help building nests under your eaves.
The problem is not that the wasps are doing unfortunate things, but that you have wasps.

daskol said...

gas stove + highly reactive carbon steel pan that leaches metal into acidic foods = best possible conditions for preparing delicious animal protein.

Fernandinande said...

And they're coming to take your stoves ha-haaa
They're coming to take your stoves ho-ho hee-hee ha-haaa
To the wind-turbine farm
Where life is beautiful all the time
And I'll be happy to see those nice young men
In their clean white coats

chuck said...

Your Gas Stove Is Bad for You and the Planet

The corona virus isn't the only disease spreading from NYC.

Wince said...

I'm still trying to figure out which type of stove top make a "Nyaaa" sound when you turn on the burner.

I want one of those.

Anonymous said...

So the Left coast is freezing gas hook-ups while Cuomo both won't allow any new gas capacity (eg more pipelines) yet is mandating more gas hook-ups

daskol said...

I like to think of the problem as a clerisy problem. That's why I like people like Gabrielle Hamilton. Lefty E. Village dwelling lesbian, but because she cooks and cleans and runs a thriving small business, she's not clerisy. She remains tethered to how things actually are. Nobody who cooks would ever buy this crap.

Jamie said...

Electric stoves suuuuuck. Everyone who cooks anything more complicated than boxed mac and cheese or spaghetti with sauce out of a jar knows it. The only electricity-powered stove that can compete, in performance, with electric is induction - which requires quite specific cookware, and which, yes, does not provide the visual feedback of the blue flame.

Ron Winkleheimer said...

At the upper levels this has nothing to do with environmentalism or indoor pollution. The electric company leadership is buying off politicians in order to put their competition out of business. You see it on a much smaller scale around here when a new subdivision is built and reps from the electric company and the gas company lobby the builders about whether they are going to lay gas lines and what kind of heating and water heaters are going to be installed.

Patrick Henry was right! said...

So electricity is pollution free?
Got it.
Not.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

They can try to come and take my commercial, 6 burner, Viking stove....over my dead body. Also the gas heat for the house, gas water heater.

When the electricity goes out...as it always does, in the winter we are still warm, can take hot showers and cook food, which also heats up the house

When the electricity goes off and you don't have gas....you are screwed.

Owen said...

Like so many other Prog initiatives, this one depends on the public being too scientifically illiterate to understand basic concepts about energy. As Michael K said in his (thread winning) comment at the top, you just plug the doodad in the wall and the electricity comes out! That brings "magical thinking" to a whole new level.

I think there is also a commensal aspect to this hysterical/virtue-signaling over-regulation, where liability lawyers often feed on the issue. How long before somebody sues the gas company for failing to warn that CH4 was dangerous? That there might be --gasp-INDOOR POLLUTION that would produce mutant children?

Nothing new here.

Darkisland said...

Electricity is generated by burning coal, gas or oil in a central power plant.

By its nature, and laws of physics, about 40% of the energy input comes out as electricity. Probaly less depending actual operating conditions. 40%is the theoretical maximum.

The other 60% is waste heat out the stack or cooling water.

Then the electricity is transmitted to the end user. Another 5% is lost in transmission. Or more depending on system efficiencies.

When gas is burned in a stove, water heater or heating furnace 70% or more of the energy is used.

Using electricity for heat is extremely wasteful and a generally stupid thing to do.

John Henry

brylun said...

Due to high electricity demand, California imports more electricity than any other state. The exporting states should get wise and make money from exporting electricity to California.

Retail Lawyer said...

Northern California is having its first electricity shutoff during the lockdown today.

tcrosse said...

Will there be an exemption for all those rich folks who have gas restaurant-style ranges in their kitchens?

Retail Lawyer said...

Wanting natural gas hookups does not equal "being against electrification"

Darkisland said...

 PatHMV said...

. Many homes here installed natural gas-powered whole-house generators for emergency backup power

For emergency/backup power use gasoline. Maybe diesel. The whole point of backup is to be off grid.

Pipeline gas is on grid dependent. Pipeline, not electric grid, but still dependent.

John Henry


Ron Winkleheimer said...

I have a hybrid stove, which are extra expensive, electric oven, gas top. I wanted a gas cook top because they are far superior to electric. However, I talked to a couple of professional chefs and they advised against a gas oven because its much harder to have precise heat control with one, which you need if you are going to be baking.

Anyway, I can't imagine a professional kitchen being able to function using electric cook tops. At least, not for long.

Michael K said...

Bill Cosby, back before he became a non-person, had a very funny routine about electricity.

You can't find them on YouTube anymore.

madAsHell said...

Gas stoves do cause indoor air pollution.

CH4+2O2>>CO2+2H2O

What pollution would that be??

h said...

Coming next: fight climate change by replacing natural gas furnaces with coal burning furnaces. Gets rid of the dangerous fracking, don't you know.

Karen said...

I never really learned to cook until I had a gas stove. There’s no comparison in the amount of control you have over temperature.

Darkisland said...

I mentioned the 60% energy loss in generation. If that heat can be recovered, called cogeneration, system efficiency can be in the 60-80% range.

Stack and radiator heat is captured and used for building heating, industrial process heat, building cooling (search absorption chillers).

Natural gas makes sense for those generators but they are not backup or emergency unless they are dual-fuel (gas/diesel)

Point of pedantry: backup generators are not the same as emergency generators. Emergency generators must meet more and stricter requirements under the National Electrical Code(NEC)

Bonus pedantry:the NEC is a private, not government regulation, promulgated by the National Fire Protection Association (NFPA)

Probably more effective than any govt agency. All govt can do is fine you. Nfpa can stop you cold.

John Henry

Maillard Reactionary said...

buwaya: "Your rulers are of subhuman intelligence, or superhuman evil. One of the two."

Why only "one of the two"? I think it is premature to imply that they cannot be both.

Seriously, another aspect of the government class that makes them so dangerous and intrusive is their self-confident certainty. The combination of that with their stupidity and assumed superiority is quite a toxic brew.

A case in point: Governors pointing to rising Wuhan flu case numbers to justify extending their lockdown orders, immediately after asserting that reopening cannot be contemplated before more testing for exposure is completed. The connection between the two seems to totally escape them since it justifies the continuation of their power-grab and suppression of individual rights.

For them, that's a feature, not a bug.

iowan2 said...

Go back and read the post about the 16 year old Carolina girl during colonial times saving seeds, testing seeds mailed to her, planting acorns for a ship building industry that did not yet exist. no experts no government.

This organized lifestyle change, makes it easier for the govt to control the masses.

If the population was distributed the was it was in 1870, it would be impossible to shut down commerce. Impossible to shut down a dozen barber shops in a town of 20,000.

Talking about freedom this morning, freedom from danger. Licensing barbers infringes on freedom, and there is no danger.
Freedom to take my fatted calf the the local butcher? That butchers required license is a taking of the butchers freedom, does not make things safer.

Pushing the population into cities, is not trading freedom for safety, it is to control the population. All services are licensed(controlled),autos are cost prohibitive, (license parking ramps), Natural gas is bad? Abbra caddabba, refuse its license. No muss no fuss.

This current virus is a wildly successful experiment, and we are the losers. I'm in the kill zone, but I will sacrifice myself in the name of my grandchildren if I would believe it would prevent whats coming.

Krumhorn said...

I don’t mind if the lefties elect to rip out the gas appliances from their hovels; they should leave my hovel alone. But that’s not how they roll.

Scratch a leftie, and you’ll find a tyrant screaming to get out. This is why we have the Second Amendment. It ain’t about hunting ducks, squirrels, and deer.

- Krumhorn

Birkel said...

The goal is to push the middle class out of California.
That was the goal in all the cities and they have created one-party towns.
It was a solid plan.

This is Althouse's preferred political party.

tim maguire said...

Having had both, I can say with authority that gas stoves are better. It's not just the blue flame (though being able to easily see which burner is on is one of the advantages of gas, as everyone who has ever put on a kettle to boil and come back 5 minutes later for their cup of tea only to find the wrong burner is on and the kettle is still cold can attest), gas stoves heat up quicker, cool off quicker, and allow for finer adjustments of temperature.

"Electrification" is welfare for building inspectors and other assorted government busybodies.

reader said...

I have an induction cooktop. It is a breeze to keep clean. I cook a lot and I’m lazy so that is important to me. It looks brand new even after about six years. This is a fact that was pointed out to me by the repairman that came out to look at it just before we were put on lockdown. One of the generators went out...and they don’t make the part anymore. They only have to make replacement parts for a certain period of time and my cooktop and I didn’t make the cut.

Consequently, I’m about to begin a kitchen remodel (I’m not going to purchase another electric cooktop that only lasts five years and gas cooktops/stoves are very repairable). It’s considered essential. California may not give a rat’s ass if you can afford food but they want you to have something to cook it on. Yay!

I’m getting a gas range. It’s going to be a pain to keep clean - sigh.

Howard said...

Look it up mad as hell. Perhaps you are too stupid to know that oxides of nitrogen are a byproduct of combustion as well as micro particulates and carbon monoxide. Don't you have some poor overworked pee on cashier to yell at?

What's it like being a f****** cowardly dumb s***? No wonder you're mad as hell you should be mad at your parents for giving you those defective genes

Big Mike said...

I don’t know of anyone whose hobby is gourmet cooking and who prefers electric burners to gas on their cooktops. They want to see the flames and to set them just so.

California, with its expensive, but irregular, supply of electricity is abso-fricking-lutely the wrong place to try this crazy experiment in the name of junk science.

Ficta said...

From my cold dead hands. I used electric for many years. I am not going back. Cooking on an electric stove is unacceptable. The quality of many dishes prepared on an electric stove is inferior because you don't have fine, timely control of the heat. It has nothing to do with a pretty blue flame.

I suspect that the assholes pushing for this either eat out (those chefs aren't giving up their ranges, BTW) or don't care how their food tastes (some people don't)

n.n said...

We need to shift/share responsibility, infuse the debate with brown matter to force a consensus with reality, and obfuscate the Green blight and missing links through sociopolitical myths, judgment, and labels. And the band played on.

Ron Winkleheimer said...

Using electricity for heat is extremely wasteful and a generally stupid thing to do.

Yep, I think the people pushing it really must think the electricity comes out of the wall.

pacwest said...

I hadn't realized CA was building nuclear power plants. Good on them.

PM said...

All-electric homes. All-electric cars. We're gonna have to burn a lot of trees...er... 'renewables' to generate all that current.

gadfly said...

California's climate and its farm and service oriented economy requires far less energy than our cold rust-belt states while operating at a significantly higher cost as a result of overinvestment in expensive solar and wind generation which requires continuous operation of coal, natural gas, nuclear and hydro plants, just to cover times when the wind don't blow and the sun don't shine. Large investments in the bird-killing solar and wind generators begets KW costs at least 3 times higher than natural gas generators that output almost 50% of California's power. So why push entire electification with natural gas heating cost at an all-time low, thanks to fracking?

Drago said...

Howard: "What's it like being a f****** cowardly dumb s***? No wonder you're mad as hell you should be mad at your parents for giving you those defective genes"

It was only days ago that Howard and Inga were laughing and laughing and laughing about those krazy and kooky ideas around oral rinses that kill viryses and indoir lighting to kill viruses and bacteria as well as the use of UV light inside the body as a means of killing viruses.

Oh how they laughed and chuckled and chortled over those wacky Trumpy things!....

.......until, of course, the reality of all three of those things were made known to them.

Well. Not a good look for self-styled "elites"....

buwaya said...

California isn't building nuclear plants.
Its about to shut down its last one in a year or two.

I'm Not Sure said...

"I don’t mind if the lefties elect to rip out the gas appliances from their hovels; they should leave my hovel alone. But that’s not how they roll."

That's the problem with progressivism in a nutshell. It's not good enough for them to be able to suffer their own preferences- they need to be able to force them on everybody else, too.

Everything not forbidden is compulsory.

LA_Bob said...

"People are into seeing the blue flame, so there's a psychological advantage. That psychological advantage can be destroyed by the fear of pollution."

Not so sure. Ever since I was a kid, I always heard how expensive "all-electric" is. Money talks. This is universal understanding in California, which is why Prop 13 will never be repealed.

Besides, you can kill a lot of coronaviruses in that pretty blue flame.

Michael K said...

What's it like being a f****** cowardly dumb s***? No wonder you're mad as hell you should be mad at your parents for giving you those defective genes

I told you Howard was going nutsy. Get out of that bubble before it kills your last brain cell, Howard.

Sam L. said...

Wellll, I'm cooking with GAS!!!1111!!!!! Nyah, nyah, nyahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

Big Mike said...

Look it up mad as hell.

I warned all of you that Howard is an educated fool. But did you pay attention? Nooooo!

Skeptical Voter said...

Well slow down folks on this issue. There are places in the country where electrical heating and stove tops are the preferred solution. If you live in a region where hydropowered electricity is abundant and cheap--Washington and Oregon with the Bonneville Power Administration and a good part of the deep South with the Tennessee Valley Authority--there's a preference for electricity. People sometimes vote with their pocketbook on these heating and cooking issues.

But there's no earthly rational reason for the City Council in Berserkeley to ban new gas hookups. OTOH the city is pretty well built out and there are existing gas lines throughout the city (I lived there in law school and visited my brother's home there for 45 years). The City Council resolution was mostly pointless stupid virtue signaling along the lines of their previous resolution declaring Berkeley a "nuclear free zone".

But that's all of a piece with the Berkeley resident who said she preferred to buy her meat in the supermarket where "no animals are hurt". They've smoked some righteous stuff in Berkeley!

Richard Dolan said...

Very funny, really, coming right after the meltdown over M Moore's Planet of the Humans. Assuming that the lefties hadn't figured out the realities of electric generation (amply discussed above-thread), Moore made it as simple as possible to understand for those who can only think in pictures. But once again, the narrative (fake but accurate!) is more important than the reality, especially in CA.

Mattman26 said...

"They’re coming to take your gas stoves" is the message, we're told, but the article shows that the message is true.

Ain't that beautiful? Don't listen to these "astroturf" mo-fos when they tell you, quite accurately, exactly what it is we're trying to do. Echos of the gun control folks.

Relatedly, referring to your opponents as opposing "electrification" is ridiculous, and intentionally deceptive. I've got to think all or virtually all of these places already have electricity.

Tomcc said...

I see the term "astroturf" is used un-ironically. This is similar to yesterday's post about "disinformation" on Coronovirus. The essence of their argument is that "our experts are pure of heart and mind, while yours are malignant in their ignorance".

Static Ping said...

And, as usual, electricity needs to come from somewhere. You cannot replace coal, oil, and natural gas with fairy dust and unicorn farts. If you want to get rid of fossil fuels, you need nuclear complemented with hydroelectric where available. Solar and wind are only useful for niche roles and virtue signaling.

This does not apply to Iceland or any other place that can generate geothermal power because they are located on a volcano hot spot.

Todd said...

"'They’re coming to take your gas stoves' is a central message of Californians for Balanced Energy Solutions (C4BES), an astroturf group formed to push back against electrification in California...."

When it is NOT done by the left, it is described as astroturf even when it is 100% grass roots with NO "outside" money, see "tea party". Whereas just about EVERY SINGLE left wing group has "dark money" doners shelling out bucks.

"They’re coming to take your gas stoves" is the message, we're told, but the article shows that the message is true.

That is what the REALLY hate, the fact that the gas group is correct, that CA does want their gas stoves, gas dryers, wood burning stoves, camp fires, gas cars, etc. How DARE you shine a light on that!

We used to have gas appliances and the gas dryer was the BEST even hedging out the gas stove.

daskol said...

I live in a mid-late 19th century house which we did some work on. The original heating system was coal-fired from the basement with "fireplaces" throughout the house that are actually just heating outlets, and the original fireplace frontispieces/grills are actually vents that can be adjusted. The house is also plumbed throughout in the ceiling for gas lamps. I love my gas stove and dryer, but I do dig my electric lights.

Ron Winkleheimer said...

Speaking of gas stoves and woks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dworC_RqzHw

Bushman of the Kohlrabi said...

If it saves just one life...

Rabel said...

What a coincidence. I just got a call from a guy claiming to be from my gas company. They say I owe them over $900 and I haven't paid my bill in over a year.

An obvious scam. The bill is deducted automatically from my credit card and I get an email each month from the provider verifying that.

The header on these emails says "Your Atmos bill has been" and I never open them.

I asked the guy on the phone (before I checked the email) why I wasn't disconnected if I wasn't paying the bill. He said that was odd but he didn't know why. Sure, scammer, I thought.

I just opened one of those emails and it says "Your Atmos bill has been declined."

Oops.

There goes my Corona money.

Payment probably stopped when I got a new card with a new expiration date.

RichardJohnson said...

Safety is another reason for preferring gas stoves. Visual inspection makes it clear that a gas stove is on. From visual inspection of an electric stove, it is not so clear that the stove is on. I know of three houses in my hometown that were burned down by forgetting to turn off an electric stove. I know of no such cases for gas stoves.

Jim at said...

Seattle wants to do the same, damn thing.

Abdul Abulbul Amir said...

That largely depends on how you generate the electricity. Only hydro and nuke pass the clean test. Wind and solar are dirty in mining of toxic metals and are barely partially recyclable at end of life.

John henry said...

I'm not sure that Huston should be counted ss "clean"

No air pollution to be sure but look at how many thousands of square miles of trees the James Bay hydro project killed.

Or hoover dam. An awful lot of land was drowned building the equivalent of 1 nuke plant. To be fair, it was never justified on electricity, that's just a side benefit.

Of us energy production, hydro is insignificant. And there aren't many sites left.

And they REALLY, REALLY, REALLY piss environmentalists off.

Some people might view that as a point in hydro's favor.

John Henry

John henry said...

BTW:James Bay was also responsible for almost all the acid rain in the USA.

Thanks, Canada.

Also reminds me, there is a plan afoot to run additional power line from James Bay through New Hampshire to Massachusetts.

One would think environmentalists would be pleased to be getting clean, renewable sustainable power.

One might think that but noooooooo, one would be wrong. Envonmentalists are working overtime to stop it. Power lines are ugly.

They are also shutting down local power plants.

Fuck 'em. Let them freeze in the dark.


John Henry

daskol said...

My first job out of college was writing code for an app used by a utility in NJ to help them assess where to buy their power. I had no idea how much of the trip-state area's energy comes from Niagara Falls.

Darkisland said...

I'm not sure that Huston should be counted ss "clean"

that should have been hydro, not huston.

Also, here is a chart from Lawrence Livermore Labs showing all US energy sources and all energy usages in 2019. Not particularly how much energy is "rejected" on the right side. Rejected is a polite word for wasted.

https://flowcharts.llnl.gov/content/assets/docs/2019_United-States_Energy.pdf

Hydro makes up about 2.5% of the total energy produced, almost all to electric.

Note also that of the 37 quads total that go into electric generation, about 12 come out as electricity and 25 go to waste. That's 32 % used, 68% wasted.

As I said, using electricity for heating is generally pretty stupid and wasteful.

John Henry

RobinGoodfellow said...

They have my gas stove when they pry it from my cold, dead oven mitts!

The Minnow Wrangler said...

I lived with electric stoves for 20+ years. I couldn't wait to get a gas stove and I was very happy when I finally got one. It is much hotter than electric and you can control the heat more easily. Sadly I am now living with an electric stove again since I moved to Kansas and I'm on a limited budget. But I loved those few months I had cooking with gas! Funny thing, I have pans with metal handles, never a problem with the electric stove, but once I had a gas stove I had to buy some silicone handles for them.

Where do they think that electricity comes from anyway? Where I live right now electricity is much more expensive than gas, even in the winter. Probably because we run a couple of electric heaters, but the summer where my kids were living upstairs we had an almost $600 electric bill with the big window AC up there.

RobinGoodfellow said...


Blogger madAsHell said...
Gas stoves do cause indoor air pollution.

CH4+2O2>>CO2+2H2O

What pollution would that be??”

That is a good question, because CO2 isn’t toxic, it is a simple asphyxiant. Which means it takes A LOT to kill you.

JaimeRoberto said...

As a California resident it pisses me off to no end that our governments are perfectly content to let homeless camp in creek beds and crap all over the place and make the cost of living higher for regular people. That's the Progressive way: harass the normals and let everyone else ignore the law.

tcrosse said...

I had no idea how much of the trip-state area's energy comes from Niagara Falls.

Niagara Falls! Slowly I turned. Step by step, closer and closer I came....

mandrewa said...

I don't get it. Most places electricity is either generated by burning coal, which generates more nitrogen and sulfur oxides, as well as more CO2, than natural gas, or oil, same thing as coal except not as bad, or it's natural gas itself that is being burned to generate the electricity.

The exceptions are nuclear and hydrothermal power plants. But since in neither case are new instances of these being built, it is probably best to regard these as gifts from the past. Precious treasures that once they are gone, will never be replaced. Of course in the usual staggering stupidity of the left, where beliefs reject reality, they are actually shutting down some nuclear power plants, as in New York right now, and deliberately increasing CO2 emissions, although of course without acknowledging that they are doing so.
(The left lies and academia and the media help them.)

Solar cells and wind power are quite expensive and in the typical situation, can supply power at best and somewhat unpredictably half the time, which normally means natural gas driven power plants are the only real alternative to back them up.

effinayright said...

Howard said...
Gas stoves do cause indoor air pollution. Quite possibly it is harmful to some people in some situations. The solution is simple when you're using your gas stove just run the ventilation Hood.
*******************

Howard you are so full of shit. Look at the chemical equation above and point to the air pollution. Is it the CO2, which every animal exhales? Is it the H2O, the stuff that's always in the air in varying amounts?

Or maybe it's the infinitesimal amount of mercaptan, around 3 parts per million,added to gas to give it an odor so its presence can be detected? Mercaptan is a substance naturally found in the human body, and when the gas is burned it is converted to H20, CO2 and tiny amounts of SO2.

So...where's the pollution.

As for ventilation hoods, most kitchens in older homes do not have them and cannot be retrofitted to do so.

daskol said...

Hank Hill would not be amused.

Jupiter said...

As the article makes clear, the high temperature and free radicals present in flames break down the N2 which is the primary component of the atmosphere, making nitrous oxides. A certain amount of CO is also produced, which is toxic.

I grew up using electric, and I don't much like gas stoves when I encounter them. But whatever. I am thinking that an underground natural gas tank could come in handy during the zombie apocalypse. It's all well and good to stow bags of rice and beans, but how do you propose to cook them when the electricity goes out?

Rusty said...

Big Mike said...
"Look it up mad as hell.

I warned all of you that Howard is an educated fool. But did you pay attention? Nooooo!"
But is an environmental engineer really an engineer? Are they really educated?

daskol said...

This looks a bit bulky, but has good reviews and if you use Althouse's link she gets a piece.

Rick.T. said...

Gas stoves do cause indoor air pollution.

CH4+2O2>>CO2+2H2O

What pollution would that be??
-------------------
Nobody tell Howard about ventless propane fireplaces.

Rick.T. said...

I have a hybrid stove, which are extra expensive, electric oven, gas top. I wanted a gas cook top because they are far superior to electric. However, I talked to a couple of professional chefs and they advised against a gas oven because its much harder to have precise heat control with one, which you need if you are going to be baking.
----------------
If you can afford it. a gas cooktop and separate electric wall oven are the way to go.

MartyH said...

We just got a new washer and dryer today. Annual cost to run the washer with an electric water heater: $25. Gas: $14.

jj121957 said...

"California isn't building nuclear plants.
Its about to shut down its last one in a year or two."

And that plant, Diablo Canyon, is probably only about 20 miles from San Luis Obispo. So those people will have to rely on electricity transported from who knows how far away. Add to that the fact that because of recent wildfires and lawsuits the public utilities are just shutting off the power just about any time the wind blows enough to risk arcing power lines. And the further away from your back yard your source of electricity is the more you will be exposed to wind caused outages.

Tomcc said...

MartyH: ...electric water heater: $25. Gas: $14
Just spitballing here 'cause I'm not an economist; but what happens to the price of electricity when it's the only option? (God help those poor schnooks in CA)

Unknown said...

Hi Ann, i cowrote the NYT oped on gas stove and contributing author to this report at RNI, and a proud UW law grad, class '96. Thanks for covering.

Michael McNeil said...

They can try to come and take my commercial, 6 burner, Viking stove....over my dead body. Also the gas heat for the house, gas water heater.

They don't need to “come and take” your gas stove, furnace, or water heater. All they have to do is block the gas line where it enters that particular polity's territorial limits. Voila!

Charlotte Allen said...

I can cook fine on my electric stove. It just took some getting used to after decades with gas (moved to townhouse complex built in the early '60s when "all-electric" was chic). It helps to have a ceramic top. You can slide pots that are getting too hot over to cooler areas. My electric oven seems superior to my old gas ovens. I'd never switch to induction, though, because I cherish my old Calphalon pots and pans and my Moroccan ceramic tagine that I can put right on top of one of the burners. I refuse even to buy "induction-ready" cookware. I do disapprove of green Nazis banning gas, however. Why do liberals love ordering people around?

DavidUW said...

Given the proven unreliability of the California electric grid, never mind the expense of electricity here, I feel they have an uphill fight even given the stupid quotient here. Even the idiots have memories that spend 12 months and the annual blackouts.

I'm Not Sure said...

"I can cook fine on my electric stove.
...

I do disapprove of green Nazis banning gas, however. Why do liberals love ordering people around?


Now, see? That's the mature, adult way to approach the world. As opposed to the "This is how I think things should be done and I'm going to do everything I can to force you to go along with what I say" way so popular with today's progressives.

mikee said...

Has there ever, ever, ever been a problem to which leftist collectivization and loss of individual rights wasn't the proposed answer? Makes me a bit suspicious of the proposed solution, collectivization, when it works not just for your transportation needs, but for your cooking needs, and can also be used as a salad dressing.

I'm guessing the real issue is that monopolists dislike competition, because other things actually work better than the monopoly solution.