May 2, 2019

"We used to love cooking with gas, too. But if our society is going to solve the climate crisis..."

"... one of the things we must do is stop burning gas in our buildings. Nobody is going to shed a tear about having to switch to a more efficient furnace or water heater. But people feel emotional about gas stoves, and the gas industry knows it. Seeing this fight coming, the industry is already issuing propaganda with gauzy pictures of blue flames.... Why do all-electric homes make sense now? Because... of devices called heat pumps.... Building a new all-electric home powered by heat pumps is already cheaper than building with gas because you avoid the costs of gas lines and ventilation.... Stoves actually use very little energy, but until people are convinced there are superior alternatives to gas stoves, we will not be able to get rid of gas lines to buildings.... The perceived advantage of gas stoves is pinpoint control of heat, but induction cooktops are more precise, and faster.... [And] a growing body of scientific evidence has shown that gas stoves throw off pollutants like nitrogen dioxide and carbon monoxide...."

"Your Gas Stove Is Bad for You and the Planet/To help solve the climate crisis, we need to electrify everything" (NYT).

I expected the commentariat to resist, and, yes, here's the top-rated comment over there:
Um.... no. Of all the things I'm willing to do to save the planet, my gas stove will be the last to go.

I'm a cook. It's my one true passion. I lived for four years on an island (Hawaii) that has no natural source of natural gas. So I learned to "love" induction-- because I had to. Is it better than electric? No question. But it is not, and never will be, gas. There is nothing to replace the visceral feeling of being able to lean down and resize a flame by sight. Nope, not the same as dialing down an electric counter from "8" to "7".

I want to help you, I really do. But comparing very-special-advances in induction technology to gas cooking is like telling Ansel Adams that he's going to just LOVE what you can do with your iPhone. If you're boiling water-- sure, go ahead, I don't care. But before we start targeting one of the few technologies that gives genuine joy, how about we think first about the thousands of corporations that pay zero taxes to humm along on coal-powered transmission belts.

Call me when they're dealt with, and I'll think about my stove.

189 comments:

mockturtle said...

There is no climate crisis.

Henry said...

The big switch is heating oil to gas. You do that with an existing home. You replace your oil furnace with a much more efficient gas furnace. The gas stove is a small extra reward for a big increase in fuel efficiency.

What this argument takes for granted is that you're building an entirely new house.

With electric-powered backhoes, I guess.

MBunge said...

"Stoves actually use very little energy"

Yes, forcing people to use more energy is sure to solve the problem.

Mike

Amexpat said...

Gas lines are a fire danger and either a suicide aid or legitimate cause of death with leaks in homes.

Much better for all homes, where possible, to have solar panels to cover their energy needs. Being energy self sufficient is one of the few areas where the left and right can unite - save the planet or be more independent of big government and business. I'm surprised that a clever politician has exploited this.

Black Bellamy said...

My wife is one of the best cooks in the entire world. We have been using electric ranges for 10 years and her cooking has only gotten better. You love dialing up your pretty visible flame, I get that. You have feelings about your gas.

Henry said...


How New York City Gets Its Electricity - The New York Times

traditionalguy said...

CO2 is a benevolent trace gas fertilizer of green plants. It is no more Carbon than table salt is Chlorine. The ENTIRE climate hoax is a grade B religion of being more Clean. And every scientist knows by now that it is false from the first lie to the last lie. And it is the planned basis of the New World Tyranny's method of stealing from us by using a new Currency.

Seeing Red said...

Sure then the electricity goes out.

I’ve had the electricity off 18 hours in the winter.

Besides those idiots don’t understand what it takes to generate electricity, those NIMBYS.

And they keep adding more people.

They assume POOF! It’ll be fixed pronto.

rhhardin said...

The electric stove stopped working two decades ago. I use it as counter space, and microwave everything anyway.

Tommy Duncan said...

"...think first about the thousands of corporations that pay zero taxes to humm along on coal-powered transmission belts."

Where did this come from? And are the belts in my car's automatic transmission now coal powered?

Or have aluminum cable electric transmission lines been replaced with belts powered by mini coal fired power plants mounted on the poles?

And, finally, what does this have to do with taxes?

Seeing Red said...

Once in my entire life did I have to turn off the gas to my home.

I’m in suburban Chicago and my electricity goes out at least 1-2 x a year.

But I have seen the damage to cement a downed electrical line can do.

Sebastian said...

Dear top-rated commenter:

Your annoyance confirms the virtue, indeed, the necessity, of the switch.

Controlling you, your behavior, your mind, your food, is the point--it's for your own good.

Of course, it will do nothing for "the planet," which does not care about human whims.

But it will work wonders for humanity: progressive nirvana is near.

mockturtle said...

George Carlin had it right: Saving the Planet

Unknown said...

Always with the canard about oil subsidies. It’s bullshit but keeps on keeps it on. Much like climate change, hands up don’t shoot and Trump is the embodiment of all that is evil.

Dumb as a rock ( but dangerous ) democrat propaganda.

Seeing Red said...

"...think first about the thousands of corporations that pay zero taxes to humm along on coal-powered transmission belts."


Think first about the $79 BILLION the USG spent the last month of their budget so their dept budgets wouldn’t get cut.

buwaya said...

Installing solar will not make you more independent.
You are just replacing regulatory regimes.

You are enabling government-financed and government-regulated entities, those that are licensed to make this equipment, to install this equipment, and to maintain this equipment. No different than gas companies or electric utilities.

Indeed, your home electric generation system will have to connect to an electric utility for backup, and as a way to get rid of your excess generation. There is no battery technology that can serve as a replacement.

Xmas said...

I have a hybrid stove that is an electric oven with gas burners. It's great.

That replaced an all electric stove. I hate electric stoves. Induction sounds great, but you need special cookware and it lacks any visual cues as to heat.

Fernandinande said...

Einstein was cooking with gas when he patented a "heat pump" in the 1920's.

Seeing Red said...

That idiot learned nothing from Hurricane Sandy.

John Borell said...

We're at the end of a kitchen remodel part of which was switching from gas to induction.

I did it for the environment.

No, not the global environment, but for my kitchen environment. That gas stove was great to cook with but a mess to clean up. Have to admit, the whole "do this for the environment" thing just doesn't resonate with me.

Oh, and we did not need to switch to 'special' cookware. The stuff we have all works with induction.

JackWayne said...

My 2 cents. Hurricane Ike knocked out electricity in Houston for 4 days for most. As much as 3 weeks for some. Warmunistas can suck it.

Marcus Bressler said...

As a chef, I always choose gas over electric, if the choice is available. When the power was off for three days after a hurricane, I cooked with a mini-propane stove. Gas rules!

THEOLDMAN

(And afterwards, I did not throw out my ketchup, mustard, hot sauces OR mayo)

buwaya said...

Gas is actually more energy-efficient. No energy conversion losses, the translation of chemical-nuclear heat to electricity, no transmission losses, and far less energy-intensive infrastructure.

Consider, for instance, that the making of an automobile generates vastly more "greenhouse gas" than the thing will create by burning fuel over its lifetime.

You have to take all this into account if you are going to sincerely grapple with CO2.

But nobody on that side is sincere. They are liars.

Henry said...

Indeed, your home electric generation system will have to connect to an electric utility for backup, and as a way to get rid of your excess generation. There is no battery technology that can serve as a replacement.

I've toyed with the idea of building an off-the-grid cabin that combined solar with propane backup for electricity and wood stove for heat.

But that has nothing to do with saving the planet.

Paul said...

Bunch of nitwits.. where do they think the electricity comes from??? Nitwits.

Tina848 said...

Natural gas is abundant, cheap and burns cleanly. It has been used for well over 100 years. With Fracking, we have literally TONS of it. So much we are exporting it from the US. If we all switched to electric, where would the power come from....Coal plants? natural gas plants? Nuclear? Solar or wind will not provide nearly enough power consistently to generate enough electricity for this. Should we also get rid of gas heat, too?

stevew said...

As mockturtle so efficiently says, the opening premise is false. All that follows in the argument is irrelevant.

Will I be required to give up my gas grill? How about charcoal smoking and grilling? My eldest and his family live in Maine - near Portland - and they and everyone in their area have propane tanks to supply gas for heating and cooking rather than natural gas supply pipes. Will they be made to switch too?

ConradBibby said...

Shorter NYT commenter: "Of all the things I'm willing to do to save the planet, my gas stove will be the last to go. I'm a cook. It's my one true passion. Go take away someone else's one true passion."

Hey Skipper said...

Until a couple or so years ago, Justin Gillis was Minister in Charge of Climate Catastrophe Propaganda.

He continually banged on about the more arctic ice melted, the faster the rest would melt because reasons.

How's that worked out for you, Minister Gillis?

Wince said...

I'm contemplating a switch from oil to a heat pump and propane gas (no street gas available), decisively because of the large subsidies offered.

Then I will have to choose whether to switch to gas cooking when I remodel the kitchen.

Gas cooking never held the mystic for me that it does others.

robother said...

One of the dirty secrets of the environmentalist movement is targeted funding from industry players with financial interests. Hold a monopoly in the form of a front-range gravel pit, and someone wants to open a new commuting gravel pit? Suddenly a well-funded "grass roots" enviro campaign emerges making the governmental permitting controversial and killing it. Ever wonder how all the professional protesters could spend months protesting a pipeline in South Dakota? You better believe the railroads were making that possible.

I would wager that electrical industry and induction makers are funding these guys' enviro foundation sugar daddies. There's as much dark money in the enviro movement as in straight politics

Dave Begley said...

Without clicking on the "more" tab I knew that the foodies would push back hard. No serious cook would use anything but nat gas.

As mockturtle wrote above, there is no climate crisis. It is all a SCAM.

Dave Begley said...

robother:

I'm convinced that the Russians funded the anti-KXL protests in South Dakota. They have done it in the past. Pay them in bitcoin and diamonds.

Bob Boyd said...

What the NYT commenter doesn't get is that depriving him of something that gives genuine joy is the point. Its a sacrifice. A religious sacrifice.

Maillard Reactionary said...

More nonsense from the NYT. Thank you Ann, for reading this crap so we don't have to!

The real problem with electric stoves, which I did not see mentioned above, is that there is a significant time lag between when you adjust the heat setting, and when the heat of the pan actually changes. That is inevitable because of the "thermal mass", the heat already stored so to speak in the heating element. When you need to turn the heat down right now, too bad if you're using an electric stove.

Also, as someone else suggested, there is no visual feedback on the heat setting. This is a fundamental violation of sound user interface design principles. You need to be able to look at it and know what state it's in. We don't see in the infrared, so you don't have that with an electric stove. Also, when exactly is that heating element cool enough to touch? I've broken nice serving platters setting them down on electric stove elements that I didn't realize were hot.

And of course, there is the folly of ignoring the energy conversion losses. I assume that this innumerate weenie is envisioning all these electric stoves being powered by windmills or solar cells, but in reality they will be powered by gas- or oil-burning power plants that have a conversion efficiency of maybe 30%. The rest of the heat from the fuel goes up the stack. And no, you can't engineer your way out of that, because it's thermodynamics. Versus just burning the gas, where nearly all the heat goes into, you know, heating your pan.

If there is no alternative to using electricity for heating (say, if you're on the Moon or something), the use of a heat pump can improve the overall system efficiency somewhat, but you will never get enough of a temperature increase from a heat pump to even annoy your food, much less cook it. Also, last time I checked, there are no "heat pump mines" on this planet. You have to manufacture them, with all kinds of pumps and motors and copper coils and fluorocarbons and stuff. Where's the energy for doing that going to come from?

Is there no end to this idiocy? And these people think they are so much smarter than us.

SMURF said...

The entire climate/carbonbad scam is stupid and insulting. But even by the low-intelligence standards of the climatistas this is really stupid. Where does this moron think electricity comes from ? You boil water to make steam WITH COAL ! Ask the Chinese. Electric stoves are just like electric cars. They are powered by coal.Natural gas is 'Greener ' than electricity. CO2 is plant food not a pollutant. This proposal is a stupid incoherent mess. Just like the rest of the climate fraud.

Brian McKim and/or Traci Skene said...

If gas lines are such a hazard, how come when a house blows up in Ohio, I hear about it on the news in Nevada? (Because, in a nation of 100+ million households, it is exceedingly rare.) Electric stoves blow. Gas rules. Emotional? Perhaps. But if emotion is good enough for the Green Fascists...

Seeing Red said...

We have buses powered by natural gas I think.

stewati said...

How about I do what I want to do, cook with what I want to cook with and the NYT and the writer of this article can go bugger a sheep dog?

I Have Misplaced My Pants said...

Lol, so Ms. X’s “genuine joy” is how we make policy decisions now. Guess what brings a lot of people genuine joy, NYT readers? Owning and shooting guns. You ok with that argument now?

Eric said...

Someone should put together an anthology of NYT's instructions for how you should live your life. Arranging it chronologically, or chronologically by topic, would make for amusing reading.

Michael K said...

Bunch of nitwits.. where do they think the electricity comes from??? Nitwits.

Exactly.

Everybody knows electricity comes out of the wall, doesn't it ? Bill Cosby used to have a funny routine about his but, of course, he is a non-person.

Marcus Bressler said...

The give up the gas argument (switch to electric) is similar to the equally-flawed "give up your plastic straws and use paper ones" in that the former works well and the latter doesn't.

THEOLDMAN

Ron Winkleheimer said...

As someone who has a heat pump I would like to point out that they are only practical in places where the winter is relatively mild. Once the temperature gets low enough, 32 degrees or so iirc, then it can no longer heat your house. When that happens the secondary heat source kicks in, in my case, a gas furnace.

stlcdr said...

Live up North without a gas furnace. Try getting a heat pump to work in 0 deg F temperatures (don't listen to the heat pump manufacturers, salespeople).

If you have gas coming to the house, then it's better to cook with it, as well as heat the water.

Yes, I'm sure there are those which come along and say they do fine, blah, blah, blah (and soy is good for you and they walk to work, up hill, both ways, and wear alpaca fur sweaters...)

You will be miserable without gas....oh, wait, I forgot that's the point of this whole thing...

Jupiter said...

Amexpat said...

"Much better for all homes, where possible, to have solar panels to cover their energy needs."

That'll work during the day. At night, you'll need a lunar panel. And I've got one I'd like to sell you.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

Seeing Red said: Sure then the electricity goes out.

I’ve had the electricity off 18 hours in the winter.


Correct! The power here can and does go out for days in the winter...in the snow, in sub freezing temperatures. At least with natural gas, we can still cook and heat our house. Without, we would sit in the dark and freeze or do like everyone else install a wood stove (which we don't want to do) and add a lot more CO2 with smoke from the roaring fireplace.

Trade offs are a bitch.

NOW PG&E has a policy that when the wind is blowing too hard...somewhere, someplace.... they will cut off power/electricity to wide swaths of the area to "prevent forest fires". 5.3 million people can be affected at a time. Whoopeee! Time to get another and larger gas generator to power our house, freezers and water well pump.

So. No power, unexpectedly, suddenly when the wind blows elsewhere. Rely only on electricity you are a sitting duck at the mercy of PG&E. Those people who have medical devices, to keep them alive, at home and don't have GAS generators are screwed

Jersey Fled said...

Where do they think electricity comes from.

Can Of Cheese for Hunter said...

Switch to electric. Burn more coal!

mockturtle said...

Indeed, your home electric generation system will have to connect to an electric utility for backup, and as a way to get rid of your excess generation. There is no battery technology that can serve as a replacement.

This is true with residential systems but my RV has solar panels and the solar regulator handles the excess not stored in my batteries. Many who live in the wilderness have solar energy w/o any involvement with electric utility companies. Here in AZ, the power company takes the excess through a shared system.

Can Of Cheese for Hunter said...

If the left want to solve the climate crisis - they need to move into 3rd world nations and cities and solve the over-population problem.

sinz52 said...

Jersey Fled said:"Where do they think electricity comes from."

It comes from a variety of power sources.

In my state, electricity has been deregulated. I can choose electric power from several providers, just like I can choose Internet service from several providers.

One electric power provider is proud of getting all its electricity from sources like wind, solar, and nuclear, no fossil fuels. However, they admit that their electric rates are 30-40% higher than other providers that generate electricity from fossil fuels.

That's the main problem with an all-electric, non-fossil-fuel home in my part of the country. It's expensive as hell.

Krumhorn said...

Once the lefties caught on to the fact that temperatures have been on the rise since the end of the Little Ice Age (which, in turn followed the Medieval warming period) as part of natural climate variability mostly associated with solar irradiance changes due to sunspot cycles, this became their vehicle to achieve so many of their ideological goals. Basically, they want to govern and control the rest of us, and they will manufacture and loudly propagate any lie to get that done.

Scratch a leftie and there’s a tyrant screaming to get out.

- Krumhorn

tim maguire said...

I've never met a cook who has used both gas and electric and prefers electric. It's not romanticism, gas is objectively better. It heats up and cools off faster, you have finer control of the heat level and, sometimes most importantly, you can easily see when the gas burner is on--you will burn yourself more often on an electric stove.

Bay Area Guy said...

These people are wackos. They must be vigorously mocked or ignored.

The Cracker Emcee Refulgent said...

As an environmental call to arms it is exceedingly lame and suggests that the warmists are getting a bit demoralized at the public indifference to their narrative.

Henry said...

Jersey Fled said...
Where do they think electricity comes from.

For NYC mostly nuclear and gas power plants. Some hydro. Some wind. Very little coal.

rhhardin said...

I used to have a heat pump but it died quickly, and it became apparent that upkeep would outcost the savings on electricity. Maybe they're better today, or maybe not.

A lot of gas conversions happen after a really cold winter, when heat pump owners discover that heat pumps don't work at all in very low temperatures and they're paying the full price for electric heating.

Heat pumps save money when the bill would not be that high anyway, by making the cost even less.

The optimum, if you have a heat pump, is to automatically switch to gas at some fixed temperature. Neither the electric company nor the gas company care for that.

rhhardin said...

The inefficiency of heat pumps at low temperatures is God's way of keeping you from building a perpetual motion machine.

Leland said...

Call me when they're dealt with, and I'll think about my stove.

Hell, call me when Democrats make a new Congressional rule preventing Representative use of air travel. I can cook with gas for the rest of my life and not equal a single trip by Pelosi back to her home district. There is no reason for them to even meet in DC at all. Embrace virtual meeting technology, Democrats!

Freeman Hunt said...

"No, thank you. I am not interested in your religion."

stlcdr said...

Oh, another advantage of gas, when your power goes out - windmill (sic) stops turning, it's nigh time for the solar panels, greenies sabotaged the nuclear plant, or the good old power lines are down - you can run a gas (or gasoline) generator to run the fan to blow the hot air generated by burning gas.

policraticus said...

It never ends, does it?

It. Never. Ends.

But that is the nature of totalitarianism. It is TOTAL control, total immersion of the collective into the life of the individual, the total submission of the individual to the will of collective. And what the collective wants is an ever moving, ever expanding set of principles that is never actually about principle, it is only and ever about control.

Fuck em. I'll give up my gas stove. Sure. No problem. I'll get myself an AGA and start cooking with COAL.

How do you like them apples? Caramelized with cinnamon and sugar, flamed with brandy and spooned over vanilla ice cream?




tim in vermont said...

I switch between a heat pump and oil. Mostly I have it for the central air, but it is nice to recover a little bit of energy costs for it. But I would never, on the Quebec border, heat with it alone, though they say it works down to something like -20 F. I turn on the oil heat when it drops below 10F.

Caligula said...

"As someone who has a heat pump I would like to point out that they are only practical in places where the winter is relatively mild. Once the temperature gets low enough, 32 degrees or so iirc, then it can no longer heat your house."

The solution to this is a ground-source heat pump. But it's not much of a solution for homeowners, as it's costly to build and very costly to repair if (when) something goes wrong underground.

And good luck finding a contractor who actually understands how to do this well, as most residential HVAC contractors seem far better at bending sheet metal than in performing anything more complicated than sizing heating and cooling capacity based on nothing more complicated than the number of square feet to be heated and cooled. Even if everything works correctly when it's installed (El milagro), underground leaks will be tough to find, and the underground part you're sucking heat out of might become semi-permanently cooler, thus making your heat pump less efficient.

But I don't see how you'd justify the cost of an air-to-air heat pump in Wisconsin, as there will be few days where you want heat and it will have substantial efficiency advantage over electric resistance heating.

Finally, heat pumps output much lower air temperatures than a combustion or electric-resistance forced-air system will, so you need greater air volume to make up for that. Which, if not carefully designed, may make your place feel drafty.

Nor will a heat pump have the overcapacity that's common with other types of heating: if you arrive home to a really cold house (because you conscientiously turned down the heat while you were at work) you'll either need the backup heat source to heat your place quickly or you'll have to wait a long time before it's warm.

Although an induction cooktop does seem attractive, even compared with gas.

BTW, the enviro-police will also want you to replace your water heater with one that uses its own air-to-air heat pump to heat your water. Of course this will make your basement (or wherever your water heater is) colder, so you may have to provide additional heat there (from somewhere).

Ken B said...

Bob Boyd is right. Perpetual Lent, by proxy. You need to give up flying too, so AOC can live in the world.

tim in vermont said...

I wonder what the cost in lost energy is of transmitting electricity to your house rather than burning gas on site to cook. And BTY, No, I won’t give up my gas range. LP Gas is so plentiful that I read at one time that they were paying to have it hauled away because it was illegal to flare it in Alberta.

tim in vermont said...

Bob Boyd is right. Perpetual Lent, by proxy. You need to give up flying too, so AOC can live in the world.

It’s all about getting back to the Garden of Eden. It’s the central myth of Christianity, can we be saved? The belief in God is gone, but the myth lives on, and in many ways, Christianity is an ideology of slaves, and those wishing to enslave us know it.

Steve said...

Mr. Gillis is a former New York Times environmental reporter and a contributing opinion writer.

Mr. Nilles is a managing director at Rocky Mountain Institute.

Have either of them ever taken a thermodynamics course or a course in economics? I doubt it.

"In spite of Donald Trump" they don't realize that fracking and pipelines are responsible for essentially all of the United States' cuts in carbon emissions.

tcrosse said...

If our society is going to solve the climate crisis we should abandon our gas stoves and take all our meals in restaurants.

bagoh20 said...

If the climate crisis is real to you, then you should stop spending your energy and time telling everyone how to add one less drop in the pool while most of the world's population in places like Africa, China, and India are pouring in buckets everyday with no end in sight. You are pretending to have solutions, but are effectively accomplishing nothing even if you get everything you ask for from us. You choose to do this to make yourself look good, or for profit, or self-satisfaction, but you are doing nothing for the cause you claim to care about. You are however making many of hate you and your cause. One thing you can do is support free markets and capitalism, becuase that is the only path proven to create cleaner societies that protect their environments, and develop cleaner technologies.

tim in vermont said...

Natural gas emits half the carbon of coal and none of the mercury and can be quickly ramped up, making it an ideal complement for wind and solar. For these reasons the Sierra Club advocated for NG and nuclear as interim steps, after, you know, doing a sober analysis. Then the moron members, like my, I can’t even believe it, but like my college professor brother basically cut off their funding until they got their mind right about the existence of fairies, unicorns, and free lunches energy-wise. Hint, the members said they all exist.

Seeing Red said...

$2 Trillion infrastructure spending bill. Are we FInally going to get serious about burying our grid?

Nancy was in charge of spending , why did it take so long after 9/11?

Seeing Red said...

LMT is working in a fusion or fission reactor. I think it’s in a test phase. That’s a game changer.

tim in vermont said...

"In spite of Donald Trump" they don't realize that fracking and pipelines are responsible for essentially all of the United States' cuts in carbon emissions.

I know, the are morons. The US leads the world in carbon reduction, even though we rejected Kyoto, Paris, etc. They were not about CO2 or climate, they were about tying down the US Gulliver/Lillipution style and taking sovereignty away from the US.

ELC said...

The "experts" have been warning us for three decades that we only have 10 years left to avert a climate catastrophe. Here is the live link to an AP story from June 29, 1989:

U.N. Predicts Disaster if Global Warming Not Checked

First paragraph: "A senior U.N. environmental official says entire nations could be wiped off the face of the Earth by rising sea levels if the global warming trend is not reversed by the year 2000."

tim in vermont said...

Seeing Red said...
LMT is working in a fusion or fission reactor. I think it’s in a test phase. That’s a game changer


Let me guess, twenty years away...

MadisonMan said...

I like my gas stove. It's ancient, and architectural. Not sure what I'll do when it stops working (it'll be 100 in a couple years). I think Wisconsin could use some more nuclear-powered plants, but I'm in the minority.

As far as the climate changing, I will note this.

I was off by a week (I actually bet this year!)

Curious George said...

There is a reason for the old saying "Now we're cooking with gas"

FIDO said...

"When Worlds Collide"

"The Core"

"Armageddon"

These are all films about a disaster coming to destroy humanity.

And what did they actually do?

BILLIONS of dollars spent to STOP THE PROBLEM.

Like...geoengineering to add particulate matter to the atmosphere.

A sunshade in space.

Using specially designed explosives to cause a few eruptions to give us some global cooling.

They did not come around and put dream catchers in everyone's windows to reflect the sunlight.

This is feel good nonsense.

But just to let you know, this solution is nonsense.

VAST swathes of the population do not live in a place where

a) there is access to anything but bottled natural gas

and

b) there is not access to 24 hour electrical power.

So what an India, a Pakistan, a China has is a big red bottle of Propane, a regulator and a burner. That is ALL they have to cook with.

So once again, we get to the idiocy of the problem: 4 billion people do not live like us!

But we are so special that our 5% of the population will 'save the planet' by giving up our stoves.

Sorry, this is click bait and ridiculously reasoned thinking from someone who I question if they ever left NYC, much less the country.

mockturtle said...

There is no reason for them to even meet in DC at all. Embrace virtual meeting technology, Democrats!

Good idea, Leland! We should insist on it.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

Here you go. California wildfire prevention: Unplugging Grandma's ventilator

Unintended...or perhaps INtended consequences. Control of every aspect of our lives.

The religion of Global Warming is just a giant crock of shit and a way to take control. The climate always changes. Always will. Nothing is fixed.

We are just now emerging from the last, very small ice age, and are in a interim period. OF course temperatures are warming. Thank God!!! The real possibility is that we are shortly (and I mean a few decades) going to be entering a new ice age based on solar sunspot activity and historical observations, such as the Maunder Minimum.

The idea that mere humans have more control over things than the Sun and the mechanics of the Universe is laughable.

Of course, we don't want to pollute or be careless with our resources, but in the big scheme of things and over the BILLIONS of years that the Solar system has existed...we are nothing.

The more hysterical the Global Warming religion fanatics get...the less we believe them.

Plus....if they really believed, they would act first. Divest themselves of all that nasty technology. Stop flying or driving or going out to eat a restaurants. They won't. Eff 'em

tim in vermont said...

The reason they don’t meet virtually is because every word spoken between them could be recorded.

MadisonMan said...

There is a reason for the old saying "Now we're cooking with gas"

I was, er, curious as to where that phrase came from. Link. I'm not sure I buy that it was created by the Gas Industry, but they seem to have been early adopters of a phrase that was probably out there floating around in young people slang land.

RK said...

Let's carpet the world with windmills and kill all of the birds and bats. Let's dam every river (again) and fuck up that ecology too. Yeah, renewable energy is awesome.

Anonymous said...

I have a dream of getting a gas fired generator and disconnecting the electric company.
I bet I could save a lot of money.

Michael K said...

Nor will a heat pump have the overcapacity that's common with other types of heating: if you arrive home to a really cold house (because you conscientiously turned down the heat while you were at work) you'll either need the backup heat source to heat your place quickly or you'll have to wait a long time before it's warm.

Yes, I had a weekend home in Tucson before moving here. It was in an all electric development and had a heat pump. In winter we would arrive after not being there for two weeks and it would warm up about the time we left. Also it had a pool and spa that required propane to heat,. It was a pain in the ass. The pool heater was never used

Static Ping said...

It is not possible to build a large scale and functioning power grid with only solar and wind power. This is something obvious to anyone with an open mind that spends 15 minutes researching the topic. Solar and wind are too erratic to be reliable and the amount of geography they need to cover to provide the necessary power would be ridiculous and environmentally disastrous. The power grid requires electrical sources that can be turned on and off and ramped up and ramped down as needed, which means fossil fuels, nuclear, and hydroelectric for almost all scenarios. (Iceland can get away with geothermal.)

The attack on gas stoves is a solution looking for a problem. Also, looking for reality.

I am getting fed up with being lectured by people who (a) hate me and (b) are either completely ignorant of the subjects that they pine upon or are, verifiably, insane. At this point it is obvious that the leftists have no future as their dream system will collapse spectacularly. The only questions are whether they are going to take the rest of us down with them or not, and whether we end up conquered by some other power when we can no longer defend ourselves with our solar powered air force and wind powered navy.

Curious George said...

MM I was also curious and looked it up. I believe the origins, but there is a reason it has stuck around and has a universal meaning of doing things right.

Nonapod said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
rcocean said...

We like electric better than gas. Or more correctly, my wife does. Personally, I don't see the big advantage to Gas Stoves and certainly its safer to have electric.

HoodlumDoodlum said...

The people who want to control you and your choices do not like being control nor having their choices controlled. Those people see no contradiction in this fact.

The ethos of the age really does seem to be "it's different when WE do it."

I challenge you to find a recent major story or public controversy that cannot be boiled down to that belief.

sinz52 said...

Nonapod: " I hope gen IV nuclear plants gradually start replacing coal plants, especially in places like China and India."

I've been a big supporter of nuclear power too.

But the biggest contributor of greenhouse gases (and smog) remains transportation.

And even if we had a zillion nuclear plants operating in America, we've still got this problem of phasing out all the gasoline-powered cars and trucks and even motorcycles and replacing them with electric vehicles.

The cost of doing that (and replacing gasoline service stations with electric service stations) will be staggering.

Nonapod said...

Fretting about natural gas stoves seems idiotic. Switching to electric stoves may make an individual feel better about themselves, but in reality it makes no real difference and strikes me as silly and pointless.

If people are really serious about reducing carbon emissions, the ultimate solution is advancement of technology as well as using the proven technology we currently have that is much more efficient. I hope gen IV nuclear plants gradually start replacing coal plants, especially in places like China and India. And I hope a lot more money is put into fusion research. The $20 billion for ITER is a start. But we should be really investing a lot more into it. I'd like to see the US invest at least a $100 billion into a domestic reseach effort.

iowan2 said...

The foodies, or more accurately those that see themselves a foodies use gas because the pros do. The have no idea why the pros do, they just read that the pros do. (Think of the weekend golfer with the $1200 driver in his bag. or for this blog, if our host buys a $8,000 mountain bike, to ride along with Meade twice a year)

My wife only wanted gas when we got married. Our first rental had electric, she was not impressed. I grew up on the farm with electric. Our second home had gas. She was getting used to the clean pots and pans, did not like the grime of gas. Plus she could smell gas from time to time. Next home, she wanted electric.
Then we did the next step. With a kitchen gut and rebuild, I put in a glass top range, and a double oven 8 feet away. Glass top ranges are great cleanup. We could not be happier. For all but the smallest number of pros, an electric glass top range is heaven.

Francisco D said...

George Carlin had it right: Saving the Planet

Great clip!

I miss that guy.

Ingachuck'stoothlessARM said...

how long before:

"Your a NAZI cuz you wont give up your gas ovens!!"

rehajm said...

The competition seems to be how extreme can I take it. I don't recall anyone attacking gas stoves- YAH, l'll do that! I'll be a hero, and a leader! It's not even in the Green Nude Eel!!!

Nonapod said...

And even if we had a zillion nuclear plants operating in America, we've still got this problem of phasing out all the gasoline-powered cars and trucks and even motorcycles and replacing them with electric vehicles.

The cost of doing that (and replacing gasoline service stations with electric service stations) will be staggering.


I have no idea how much installing things like supercharger bays in all the service stations all at once all around the US would cost, but I imagine that the free market will gradually make that a reality anyway as we transition from gasoline to EV vehicles over the coming decades. The only question is how fast it will occur. Not fast enough in the eyes of some people I'm sure.

Michael K said...

But the biggest contributor of greenhouse gases (and smog) remains transportation.

The biggest contributor of greenhouse gases is left wing bullshit. And it seems to be continuing is spite of efforts to bring sanity.

Maybe, if the sunspot minimum continues and glaciers begin to grow more, sanity will return. Of course, then global cooling will return as the left's obsession,

mockturtle said...

My RV stove is propane. My house has electric. Cooking with propane is far, far superior. It's one reason I dread getting back home--having to cook with electric burners.

JPS said...

sinz52:

"And even if we had a zillion nuclear plants operating in America, we've still got this problem of phasing out all the gasoline-powered cars and trucks and even motorcycles and replacing them with electric vehicles."

You can capture CO2 from the air and turn it to liquid fuels. Right now, it's not economical. Part of that is the chemistry and the chemical engineering need to advance, they're inefficient and waste too much energy; part of it is, you need lots and lots of non-CO2-emitting energy on tap at low marginal cost. As always with CO2 chemistry, the catch is it probably costs you energy, and that energy has to come from somewhere.

But CO2 is a fine hydrogen storage material, if you look at it from that perspective.

tim in vermont said...

iowan, just because you can’t see it doesn’t mean that gas is not better. Sorry about your wife’s anxiety. If you smell gas, which has happened to me only once, it is probably an old regulator. It’s just better. Maybe not for cooking fish sticks, maybe electric ovens are just fine too, but for the stovetop, cooking an omelette or just eggs, or any number of other things, gas is superior.

tim in vermont said...

As always with CO2 chemistry, the catch is it probably costs you energy, and that energy has to come from somewhere.


So you “probably” can’t build a perpetual motion machine?

CWJ said...

There are plenty of reasons to mock this article, but they really lost me when they blithely pimped heat pumps. As mentioned above, they wear out quickly compared to a furnace. My home uses both depending on the weather, and I can't document any noticeable savings of one over the other. In fact, my suspicion is that the heat pump costs more for the amount of heat generated.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

rcocean says We like electric better than gas. Or more correctly, my wife does.

Good for you.

Personally, I don't see the big advantage to Gas Stoves and certainly its safer to have electric.

Fine. That is YOUR personal opinion and you are entitled to it. What you aren't entitled to is to tell me how to live my life base on YOUR preferences.

I won't tell you how to live and you don't butt into my life. Deal?

Gahrie said...

You can capture CO2 from the air and turn it to liquid fuels.

Trees do a much better and cheaper job of turning it into solid fuels. Other plants turn it into food energy, used by us and other animals.

If the Left was serious about moving away from "fossil" fuels, they would promote nuclear and hydro the only effective alternatives.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

how long before:

"Your a NAZI cuz you wont give up your gas ovens!!"


Well....that is just plain ridiculous.

Even with the commercial sized 6 burner natural gas Wolfe stove and oven that I use...the oven is no way big enough to qualify me as a Nazi.

Jeff Brokaw said...

I’ve reached a point of climate fatigue with all the scare tactics and the manufactured urgency, and I suspect a lot of people are with me on this.

Stated another way, on the list of things I am concerned about for my kids’ future, this kind of thing is not on it. And the people who keep pushing it have lost all credibility in my eyes.

Do. Not. Care.

Ficta said...

You can pry my gas stove from my proverbial cold dead hands. You can't cook properly on electric, you just can't. And cooking is such a very small part of the general power generation equation it's stupid to worry about it. Hopefully those banging the drum for Gen IV nuclear will get more traction.

"Geothermal" home heating systems(i.e. a heat pump that uses the ground as the heat reservoir) are very effective. You don't need a mild climate. I know a guy who has one in Iowa(!). But they are expensive (although they eventually pay for themselves).

reader said...

I love my induction cooktop. I didn’t buy it because of the environment. I bought it because of bacon! Or because I’m lazy and I can cover the cooktop with paper towels when I fry things.

SDG&E has shut down electricity in parts of San Diego county during red flag warnings (El Nino) since 2017. That’s when they found out they couldn’t pass on uninsured costs to taxpayers after the Witch Creek fire.

Michael K said...

If the Left was serious about moving away from "fossil" fuels, they would promote nuclear and hydro the only effective alternatives.

This is the most impressive Tell about what is going on. The KGB demonized nuclear power back in the 50s with the help of the SANE movement and Bertrand Russell. I wonder if the KGB funded him ?

Gahrie said...

Of all the things I'm willing to do to save the planet, my gas stove will be the last to go. I'm a cook. It's my one true passion. Go take away someone else's one true passion."

Their true passion is controlling you.

Michael K said...

SDG&E has shut down electricity in parts of San Diego county during red flag warnings

When we lived in Capistrano Beach in the 80s, SDG&E went down so often that I got a diesel generator. I had a 400 gallon diesel tank buried in the yard and we had all diesel cars. Those were the gas line days until we got rid of Carter,

Dust Bunny Queen said...

reader says I love my induction cooktop. I didn’t buy it because of the environment. I bought it because of bacon! Or because I’m lazy and I can cover the cooktop with paper towels when I fry things.

Finally!!! Some good and logical reasons for induction/electric cooking that I can relate to and definitely agree with.

Especially the grease from frying issue!

Skeptical Voter said...

I had to chuckle when I saw the word "heat pump". Back in the early 80s I was involved with two of the parent company's subsidiaries. One of them manufactured heating and air conditioning equipment--furnaces, window air conditioners, solar hot water heaters and such. The other was a company that had aggregated local HVAC installation companies with 15 or so locations from the Midwest to Florida and out to California.

One thing I learned was that there were and are distinct regional preferences for the type of heating equipment homeowners preferred. Some communities liked heat pumps; out in Washington and Oregon with abundant electric power from the Bonneville Power Administration, people liked electric heating wires installed in the floors of their homes. For other communities it was natural gas all the way. The mid Atlantic and New England areas used No. 2 Heating Oil in oil fired furnaces all the way. And so it goes.


But this clown suggested heat pumps as the solution. Well suppose I live on the 20th floor of a high rise building in New York City? Yassuh Boss, where do I install my heat pump?

Dreamers--and morons--believe that one size solution fits all.

Greg Hlatky said...

Want to use less gas? Don't live in a cold climate, like, say, New York.

We have a gas stove, gas dryer and gas water heaters. They use almost nothing. The furnace uses about 90%.

Known Unknown said...

I have an electric stove that came with the house. I am counting the days until it goes so I can install a gas one. I have extra untapped lines in the basement I can easily run to the kitchen.

Lewis said...

It amazes me how technically illiterate most climate change proponents are. Heat pumps work by taking heat (energy) out of the outside air and moving it inside. Below about 40F there isn't enough heat in the outside air to do that so they have to switch to a backup heater, which is typically inefficient and expensive electrical resistance heaters. That's why you don't see many heat pumps up north. Natural gas or oil are far less expensive and provide more comfortable heating. It's actually hot air rather than just warm air that comes out of the registers.

Seeing Red said...

Even with the commercial sized 6 burner natural gas Wolfe stove and oven that I use...the oven is no way big enough to qualify me as a Nazi.


Yeah, but, you could cover your house in candy and call for Hansel.

Seeing Red said...

I make bacon in my oven. It’s easier.

John henry said...

This is about the most boneheaded thing I've seen in a while. IF They were concerned about the environment, they would be making people change from electric to gas for all heating (stove, water heater, clothes dryer, house)

The only exception would be if their electric comes from a clean, safe, nuclear (but I repeat myself) power plant.

Here's why:

There electric probably comes from coal or natural gas. We burn very little oil for electric. If it comes from a typical central steam plant, the efficiency is about 35-40%. Laws of physics prevent anything higher though sloppy operation can make it lower.

If it comes from a gas turbine, gas or oil fired, efficiency may be 40-45%. Again, no higher but could be lower.

If it comes from a modern, less than 5 years old, combined cycle plant efficiency might be 60%. Maybe.

Then add another 10% for loss for transmitting the power from generator to stove.

So that means that to get 1,000btu to the stove, the utility has to burn 2,000 to 4,000 BTU of fuel with all the exhaust gases.

Of that 1,000 btu, perhaps 800 goes into the frying pan whether gas or electric.

If you burn the gas directly in the stove etc, you are using 1/2 to 1/4 the gas than if using electric.

Math is hard, especially for the snowflakes.

And using solar or wind to provide electric for a stove or water heater? Forget it.

John Henry

Seeing Red said...

And even if we had a zillion nuclear plants operating in America, we've still got this problem of phasing out all the gasoline-powered cars and trucks and even motorcycles and replacing them with electric vehicles."


One good EMP blast....

Waiting for my Mr. Fusion home reactor that runs on garbage.

I really think this electric BS is that, BS. That’s not the long solution.

Jersey Fled said...

Fun fact of the day:

Solar accounted for 1.6% of the electricity generated in the U.S. in 2018 compared to:

Wait for it ...

1.0 % generated by wood

Source: U.S. Energy Information Administration, U.S. Electricity Generation by Source, Amount and Share of Total in 2018.

Rick said...

There is no climate crisis.

It's more relevant to point out that changing from gas to electric cooking will have no effect on climate change no matter how much it is or is not changing.

mockturtle said...

Not saying there is no climate change. I said there is no climate crisis.

reader said...

I was cooking bacon in the oven for a while but I noticed my bacon fat was molding (I save my bacon fat). The fat wasn’t getting hot enough.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9mHQ7ITLRr8

Rick said...

The solution to this is a ground-source heat pump. But it's not much of a solution for homeowners, as it's costly to build and very costly to repair if (when) something goes wrong underground.

It seems to me increasing costs for everyday items is the left's goal. Literally everything they push for increases costs, a statistical improbability even after allowing that most initiatives increase costs.

I suspect the underlying principle is that mandating these elevated costs implicitly justifies greater taxes and handouts. Then as the middle and upper-middle classes see their own standard of living reduced more will join the left's class warfare out of self-interest.

Rick said...

I said there is no climate crisis.

I wasn't trying to change your comment just to include all options. That argument focuses the debate where it is not likely to win converts. I think the important point is that even if you accept everything the most rabid alarmist says is true the change won't make a bit of difference.

So why are activists and government wasting our time and money on it?

iowan2 said...

iowan, just because you can’t see it doesn’t mean that gas is not better.

I never said gas was not better than gas. I said for all but a few that actually know what they are doing, it makes no difference. Gas is rapid. Increasing and decreasing temperatures. Very few people know, or need that kind of response time.
My post followed our experience. An experience that a huge swath of the population could relate to. My examples of a golfers and their equipment is perfect. Just because you use the driver, or putter that Tiger uses, in no way translates to improving your game.
Just because you use gas to cook is not going to make you turn out the perfect 5 star chef result. Heat source is probably the least important variable in that equation.

Francisco D said...

Personally, I don't see the big advantage to Gas Stoves and certainly its safer to have electric.

I grew up with gas stoves when you had open pilot lights and had to light the stove with a match. I lost the hair on my arm a few times, but there were no accidents. That was in the 1960's when people worried that the pilot lights would go out and they would suffocate.

Modern gas stoves are far safer than the old ones - no open flame until you want it. The advantage is that you can control the heat better. There is no delay and very little residual heat when you turn off the burner.

I have burnt myself several times on electric stoves because the burners take forever to cool down and it's hard to tell if they are still hot. It's pretty obvious on gas stoves if the burner is on or not.

Big Mike said...

You can't use Revere Ware on an induction cooktop. Wife and I got Revere Ware as wedding presents when we were married, coming up on 45 years ago, and with a little copper cleaner they'd look brand new today. Not planning to change.

I agree that there is no climate crisis, and if the research of Valentina Zharkova and NASA scientist Dean Pernell is correct then we are headed for a prolonged period of intense cold, not global warming.

FullMoon said...

NOW PG&E has a policy that when the wind is blowing too hard...somewhere, someplace.... they will cut off power/electricity to wide swaths of the area to "prevent forest fires". 5.3 million people can be affected at a time.

Public outcry prevented PGE from shutting down lines prior to the CampFire fire in northern Cal. Resulting in loss of property and life and bankruptcy for PGE.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

iowan2 say: Just because you use gas to cook is not going to make you turn out the perfect 5 star chef result. Heat source is probably the least important variable in that equation.

I take it you aren't a cook? The heat source and your ability to control it to fine tune the heat and to be able to quickly raise or lower the temperature at crucial moments in the cooking process is important Heat source is one of the most important variables in the craft.

Lemon curd, cream pie fillings, tempering raw eggs and returning to the cream/pudding to further cook, frying chicken...... gravy even!! require precise cooking at precise temperatures and the ability to immediately go from a boil to a low simmer. TIMING is EVERYTHING. You cannot do that on an electric stove.

Now then, if your cooking consists of a few basic recipes, boiling water for ramen soup, you can probably get by with an induction or old fashioned electric cook top.

Again: I"m not saying anyone has to cook on a gas stove. Use electric if that floats your boat. I'm saying no one can tell me that I CAN'T.

FullMoon said...

Switch from gas to electric also effects water heaters and clothes dryers in gas fed homes.

Gas is much cheaper for those appliances.

Curious George said...

Can't use a cast iron skillet on those glass top electric ranges. So forget it.

FIDO said...

I'll believe there is a crisis when China wants to set up a moon base...

Um...oops!

Martin said...

How do you generate all the electricity it will take to power all the end uses (vehicles, ranges, building heating...) in a way that is reliable and that the distribution network can handle? Wind and solar will not be more than marginal for decades, if ever. Consider transmission loss, as well... you will need to generate a lot more energy at the central electric plant to get the necessary electric power to the end users that will usually convert that energy to heat or mechanical motion.

I don't buy that induction cooking is faster than gas... maybe almost as fast, maybe as fast, but faster?

I am all for reducing our use of fossil fuels, in line with Nassim Nicholas Taleb's thinking that we cannot predict the consequences of more fossil fuel use, but we should reduce our exposure to a possibly catastrophic "Black Swan" event. But, he goes on, nuclear does NOT present that Black Swan risk, it's problems are manageable and local, they do not multiply through a complex system to become an undefinable problem. And, until the people saying that climate change will be catastrophic can show me the alternative they support, I remain skeptical of their motives.

Or, as Glenn Reynolds puts it, "I'll believe it's a crisis when the people telling me it's a crisis start acting like it's a crisis." I wouldn't go that far, just because they start acting like it's a crisis would not prove them right. But that would be a start; I would at least allow that they seem sincere.

They want all end-uses to be electric but most of them don't want to use the one available technology that could get us most of the way there in 20 or 30 years

Anonymous said...

Q: Where does electricity comes from?

A: The wall plug.

Grant said...

I prefer my electric coil stove to any gas stove I've ever used, and I cook a lot. Plus, as pointed out above, you can't safely use cast iron on a glass-top range, induction or otherwise, so that's no good either. I've had people tell me they do, but...apparently they never shake their skillets.

wholelottasplainin' said...

Go ahead....install a bunch of solar panels on your 20-year-old shingled roof-----then realize you'll have to take the panels down in order to replace the shingles a few years down the road. Then you'll have to pay someone to put the panels back up.

I'm sure that would greatly reduce the "savings" solar supposedly realizes.

As for:

"You can capture CO2 from the air and turn it to liquid fuels."

Except for the reasons you cite, you can't, at least not economically. Theoretically, fuel cells using CO2 can be made, but they operate at very high temperatures and are short-lived, due to corrosion.

"Air to Fuel" schemes capture CO2, but they blend it with H2 produced through electrolysis, react the mixture to create syngas, which further undergoes reactions to produce hydrocarbons, which are BURNED, creating CO2 as a combustion product.

At most this scheme is carbon neutral, but it requires great gobs of energy. Since humans create only a tiny fraction of the naturally-produced gas essential to life, it amounts to a drop in the bucket.



JackWayne said...

DBQ, agree. Peanut brittle on an electric stove is really a challenge. Candy is a lot easier on gas.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

wholelottasplaining wisely says: Go ahead....install a bunch of solar panels on your 20-year-old shingled roof-----then realize you'll have to take the panels down in order to replace the shingles a few years down the road. Then you'll have to pay someone to put the panels back up.

Correct. Solar on the roof is not always a great idea. It is actually a pretty bad idea.

Here is more stupidity from California. (surprised???) If you build a new house you have to have solar panels on the roof. Which adds tens of thousands of dollars to the cost of the house.

The really stupid part?? If I want to build my new home, have several acres, and want to put my nifty new solar panel array in a nice sunny spot, on the ground, away from the structure......not allowed. Nope. MUST be ON the freaking roof, even if the other location is sunnier, flatter, not an eyesore,and could even accommodate a larger array.....NOPE..ON THE ROOF.

On the ground would be easier to install, maintain, clear snow and debris, and to repair. But nope nope nope. UP on the ROOF.

Don't get me started on mandatory interior fire sprinklers.

rcocean said...

Fine. That is YOUR personal opinion and you are entitled to it. What you aren't entitled to is to tell me how to live my life base on YOUR preferences.

LOL. Reading comp problem?

Dan from Madison said...

Ron Winkleheimer at 8.41am is exactly correct. Heat pumps are great for southern climates, but the laws of physics don't allow them to work without backup in the northern climates (and especially when we have a polar vortex like last Winter).

reader said...

I agree people should use what works for them. I do use all of my cast iron on my induction. The only problem I have with cast iron is sometimes when I get it screaming hot and then want to lower the temp just a skosh I will the have to wait a second or two if I change my mind and raise it right back up. That delay only happens at the very highest temp and I don’t use those temps or cast iron for candies, creams, or sauces.

The stove was originally gas so when we sell the next family can pick whichever they prefer.

Gospace said...

buwaya said...
Gas is actually more energy-efficient. No energy conversion losses, the translation of chemical-nuclear heat to electricity, no transmission losses, and far less energy-intensive infrastructure.


There's always transmission loss. Less for NG, and not directly measurable, but it's there. NG is pumped up to 200-1500 PSIG for transmission. Dropped down to less than 1 PSIG before it enters a house. I think NG is great for power generation. I don't want it in my home. I really really don't want propane. Oil is much safer to handle and store. While they're all flammable- it's really hard to get oil to explode.

As for cooking, we all have different preferences. Steaks and burgers are better on charcoal. French fries and some other things belong in a deep fat fryer. Pancakes on an electric griddle. And I like my induction cooktop. I have cooked on gas- I prefer electric or induction.


Yancey Ward said...

Right there is the nub of the matter- we all have our "true passions", don't we?

Yancey Ward said...

And bravo to Ms. Althouse for figuring out how the commenters would react to that article. Her hypocrisy antenna is very good.

Darrell said...

Thanos should have snapped twice.

Marcus Bressler said...

I have never, in decades of professional and home cooking, shook a cast iron skillet. They make saute pans for that. I use my cast iron on my glass top to make a roux for my gumbo.

THEOLDMAN

Michael K said...

Don't get me started on mandatory interior fire sprinklers.

Thank you for reminding me why I moved.

Skippy Tisdale said...

stewati,

Why do you hate sheep dobs?

- Skippy

Skippy Tisdale said...

dobs = dogs

Michael K said...

Public outcry prevented PGE from shutting down lines prior to the CampFire fire in northern Cal. Resulting in loss of property and life and bankruptcy for PGE.<

It was a little simpler than that. Ron Moorlach, a state Senator from Orange County, wrote a bill that was passed (I think) unanimously by the Democrat legislature to require clear rights of way beneath power lines unless they are buried. Jerry Brown vetoed it.

Moorlach is a serious guy and probably should be a US Senator if California were sane. He is the accountant who predicted the OC bankruptcy in 1994. The LA Times dismissed his warning and 6 months later; whoops !

ALP said...

We love to cook - and have a glass top electric stove. The boyfriend is a bit of a neat freak, so the ease of cleaning the stove wins out over the benefits of gas. But - we have a huge yard with two BBQs - one gas, one charcoal. We simply use the gas BBQ outside if we need that kind of heat. Can also create "hot" and "cool" zones in the larger charcoal grill. Problem solved!

Fen said...

We have an "energy effecient" dryer. Takes me 3 cycles to get my clothes dry.

I burn a tire on earth day as revenge.

funsize said...

people talk about induction, but does anyone actually have an induction cooker? I've never seen one in anyone's home. I have a gas stove/electric oven combo and its excellent.

reader said...

Full disclosure making tortillas on induction is a little trickier than with gas. I now use two round cast iron griddle pans instead of one large rectangular one. So I can only have two going at a time instead of three and have to watch my upper temps.

So many decisions going into this choice - environment not really in the mix. Clean up wins for me.

Kelly said...

I do love my gas stove as well as my gas fireplace. If the power goes out I’m still warm and I can still cook.

tim in vermont said...

I guess that I shouldn’t drive a fine automobile, since a professional driver could take it over a race course faster, and a Chevy Impala will get me from Pittsburgh to Detroit in roughly the same amount of time, therefore I have no need of one! Still after three weeks of driving rental cars, which were all serviceable vehicles, it was a joy to climb behind the wheel of my own car again.

Gas is nicer to look at, it’s more responsive. You can make adjustments with it, etc, etc, etc. But I should just plan longer times for my meals and have the electric stove settings worked out perfectly in advance! Never try anything new without having run several tests to establish the right position of the knobs, etc, etc, etc.

tim in vermont said...

DBQ also has a solid point about making gravy from pan drippings. Maybe induction works fine for that, but the visual feedback from the gas flame and the instant response of the heat source are kind of key.

tim in vermont said...

It’s funny how the people with the dimmest understanding of the engineering of energy distribution are the ones who call themselves “The reality based community.” They are more like the proverbial political body that decided to vote on the value of Pi. At least I hope it was proverbial.

n.n said...

We need to shift and obfuscate environmental disruption, ecological corruption, and pollution with so-called "green" technology powered by green drivers in order to sustain a perception of conservation and virtue.

tcrosse said...

How many of the NYT readers have, or long for, one of those Viking gas restaurant-style ranges, suitable for making batches of steel?

Maillard Reactionary said...

Big Mike said: "...Wife and I got Revere Ware as wedding presents when we were married..."

I suspect that is also true of my parents. All I know is that Revere Ware was in Mom's kitchen as long as she lived.

It is very nice cookware--never warped, despite many bad experiences over the years--but I got so tired of scrubbing those copper bottoms as a kid I swore I'd never have it in my house. (There's little point in having Revere Ware per se unless you enjoy the look of those pretty copper bottoms, so that means hand-washing and polishing them every time you use them.)

Now I buy all-clad stainless steel pans. Thermal characteristics similar to Revere Ware but no scrubbing. Call me a philistine but I think this is an improvement.

Just the same, I understand the fans. It's always nice working with a good tool.

Freeman Hunt said...

I don't like busybodies, so I don't like this column.

However, I do love electric stoves and have made all the things people in this thread say are impossible on them for almost two decades.

Ann Althouse said...

People believe they are getting "instant response" from the visible flame but they are still using metal cookware and it retains the heat and takes some to cool down and if it's cool it takes time to heat up. It's not instant. It's just a subjective feeling you have seeing the flame.

mockturtle said...

I burn a tire on earth day as revenge.

You're my kinda guy, Fen.

Fen said...

"it retains the heat and takes some to cool down"

Battery capacity.

DanTheMan said...

The Earth Goddess demands a sacrifice.
Oh, and you must repeat Her holy words three times a day.

The science on this is settled.

Maillard Reactionary said...

He's moved from cooking with gas to cooking with stupid.

He's happy about that.

Discuss.

TestTube said...

Pffft, gas and electricity. What a laugh.

I've been doing my cooking on a flat rock, using dried cow patties for fuel. Been doing it that way for years. The only way to go.

The flat rock really holds the heat for my artisanal dishes, and the dried cow patty is really the only way to go for temperature control.

Organic cow patties, of course. I know a guy that only keeps heritage breeds of cattle, and we have an arrangement. Lately, I've been branching out to Bison dung.

I have a contact for carabao dung well -- you probably haven't heard of carabao dung, but it is totally huge in the artisanal neo-primitive cooking circles I move in.

Maillard Reactionary said...

AA said: "People believe they are getting "instant response" from the visible flame but they are still using metal cookware and it retains the heat and takes some to cool down and if it's cool it takes time to heat up. It's not instant. It's just a subjective feeling you have seeing the flame."

On the contrary, dear Hostess: They are getting instant response from the heat input. It is true that the metal cookware is initially heated per the prior setting, but the specific heat of metals is very low. In other words, they respond quickly to changes in heat input, because on a per-gram basis, they really don't store very much heat, especially compared to water, which comprises a lot of most foods.

On the other hand, an electric heating element has in it a non-trivial amount of material (much of which is metal, of course), which a flame does not have. Also, due to the invariably poor thermal contact between the heating element and the cookware above, the heater is way above the equilibrium temperature of the cookware + food combination. This may often be seen by looking at the heating elements, which may be visibly red while the food is basically at the boiling point of water (unless we are frying, of course-- but you will certainly see the red elements then too. Note the usual frying temperature of 350 F is far below red hot).

I have cooked extensively on both, and am not easily fooled by confirmation bias or other perceptual illusions. A gas stove responds more quickly to user inputs and its current state of heat output is readily perceptible to the eye.

People can adapt to the use of electric stoves, and become very skilled in their use, and produce identical results, but in my opinion they are decidedly inferior to gas stoves in terms of intuitive operation and overall user-friendliness.

These things are made to serve us, not the other way around.

sdharms said...

Induction cooktop’s are crap. They overheat and turn themselves off in the middle of cooking. They can’t be used with any normal cookware. And it’s a glass top which is very dangerous

Maillard Reactionary said...

TestTube said: "I've been doing my cooking on a flat rock, using dried cow patties for fuel."

Not to mention that je ne sais quoi essence that the cow pattie gives to the food! Organic indeed. The backyard smoker cannot compare.

I traveled in India once. In the countryside around Agra, one could see piles of dried cow patties in the yards, and fresh ones "curing" on the roofs of the dwellings (I will decline to describe these "dwellings" in further detail here). Evidently, in some parts of the world, cow patties are a traditional renewable energy resource.

I don't know if you're South Asian or not, TestTube, but you may well be onto something that our grandchildren will be doing some day. Unless they kill all the cows, of course.

I suppose you could use man-patties instead, in that situation.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

"People believe they are getting "instant response" from the visible flame but they are still using metal cookware and it retains the heat and takes some to cool down and if it's cool it takes time to heat up. It's not instant. It's just a subjective feeling you have seeing the flame."

Actually, it is instant in a gas burner, in that when you turn the heat off or down the heat is instantly off or instantly turned down.

When you change the input on the induction top or electric element it takes some time to "gradually" reach your desired heat input.

Yes, your pan or pot still has some residual heat, but the SOURCE of the heat is instantly controllable instead of a gradual and much slower response.

Marcus Bressler said...

Phidippus, thanks for pointing out the science of cooking to the hostess who "feels" she is right about her perception but has obviously not done the research nor had the education, --hence her silly post.

THEOLDMAN

Nichevo said...

Ann Althouse said...
People believe

They know better than you what they like to cook with. Amazingly, they are right. I suppose this is more of the Devil's Advocate dumblonde thing. Have you ever posted a picture that would make us think that you can boil water without burning it?

Gospace said...

Dust Bunny Queen, you need to study more about induction. Changes are stepped, not infinitely variable like with a gas valve or rheostat on an burner element, but the change is instantaneous. And goes directly to the pan, skillet, or pot. If you're bringing water to a boil for cooking, you can see steam bubble changes the moment you hit the controls.

I have an induction cooktop at home and a portable induction cooker in my locker at work. I prefer cooking something, anything, over microwaving meals.

Can Of Cheese for Hunter said...

TestTube @ 5:59 - you are my hero.

Anonymous said...

As with electric cars the electricity for the stove appears magically from the ether to make the stove work. No CO2 involved.

Anonymous said...

@Michael K I have been following the sunspot story as well and have been trying to spread the word wherever possible. We here in MN seem to be in our own "new ice age"this spring! I asked my what she thought the climate change assholes would come up with. She laughed.

Josephbleau said...

A large high temperature stationary gas turbine (1700 deg C) with fuel air preheat from exhaust can easily be 65 pct efficient. Look at a GE or Mitsubishi catalogue.

rhhardin said...

Dryers wear clothes out very fast. All that dryer lint used to be cloth.

Rusty said...

Josephbleau.
Just think how efficient it would be at 30,000 feet.

Robert Cook said...

"There is no climate crisis."

And The Titanic was unsinkable.

Stephen St. Onge said...

        Ah yes, the magic electric stoves that will heat our food with currents generated without burning any carbon-containing fuel.  It is too laugh.

        And the magic heat pumps, which will work extract heat from the air when winter is at it's coldest.  They have to be either massively overbuilt, or they need an auxiliary heat source for the bad weather.  And again, they will be powered by the magical, no-carbon-emitting electric utility, which will NOT be that nasty nuclear power, oh no.

        What a maroon.

Shasti said...

Electrical gas stoves are the best option but if you consider purchasing the energy-efficient products then go with the LPG Gas stove.