"There’s no serious medical person out there saying to use that drug. It’s counterproductive. It’s not going to help, but the president, he decided that’s an answer...."
Biden has decided that hydroxychloroquine is not the answer.
And isn't it better to default to no until the "serious medical people" give something of a recommendation?
Plunging into things that just might work is the approach I associate with the left. Do something, anything! It's not conservatism. Trump's eagerness to try this pushed his opponent into what I see as the conservative approach: Better to do nothing than to act and make things worse. Or, as I like to say, better than nothing is a high standard.
I mean, I think the best way to be healthy is to leave your body alone to fight illness with its natural mechanisms. Don't add anything — except food... water... air. That's the presumption, and it should be hard to rebut the presumption.
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200 comments:
Don't add anything — except food... water... air.
And sun. It seems a lot of people are deficient in vitamin D, especially dark-skinned people.
Psst, hey Joe, I heard injecting Clorox into your ear can cure dementia.
"I think the best way to be healthy is to leave your body alone to fight illness with its natural mechanisms. Don't add anything — except food... water... air. That's the presumption, and it should be hard to rebut the presumption."
Sounds like you're an anti-vaxxer...
... and I disagree with that!
Yup. Ol' Joe is right on top of it...not.
The right answer to all these questions is that medication and medical procedures, including preventative measures, are matters to be decided between a person and his or her physician.
Just like an abortion, right, Joe?
I don't know anything about hdrochlorwhatever and I've checked out of paying attention to anything pandemic-related from the media. HOWEVER, if Trump really thinks that stuff is the answer, is he not leading by example by using it?
Captain America took the risk of getting injected with The Super Soldier Serum.
I remember when W got the anthrax vaccine on TV.
Trump understands what it takes.
Sleepy Joe in his basement.
In case there was any lingering doubt that a medical treatment could become politicized to the point of irrationality, there you go.
So is this what we should expect from Biden going forward? He's going to switch randomly between incoherent dementia patient, cynical lying politician, clueless moron, and intimidating hair sniffer. Oh, also shameless plagiarist. And random insult bot. His incompetence is breathtaking in its breadth.
"I mean, I think the best way to be healthy is to leave your body alone to fight illness with its natural mechanisms. Don't add anything — except food... water... air."
What was the life expectancy in the stone age?
If I didn't take my meds I'd be dead now.
I mean, I think the best way to be healthy is to leave your body alone to fight illness with its natural mechanisms. Don't add anything — except food... water... air. That's the presumption, and it should be hard to rebut the presumption.
Then why the obsession with wearing masks and quarantine? Why not leave your body alone to fight illness with its natural mechanisms?
Are you a luddite? An anti-Vaxxer? No more induced abortions? No birth control?
There’s no serious medical person out there saying to use that drug. It’s counterproductive.
Cuomo was treated in almost exactly the same way...and he's one of the major success stories...right?
I thought it was Dr. Jill Biden, not Dr. Joe Biden. My assumption that the Trump has talked this over with his doctor and they came to an agreement about this treatment that was informed.
It's getting harder and harder to listen to this type of commentary, devoid of any meaning or insight, confected solely to represent opposition to Trump. Even if it means that people come to harm because they've been influenced by it to avoid a treatment.
Do the people saying these things really expect any reasonable person to believe that Trump is not acting on the advice and consultation of a team of doctors? Do they really expect people to believe that Trump just bellowed out an order to bring him a hydroxychloroquine sandwich on a zinc platter?
The efforts of Progressive Democrats are degrading into an absurdity, an offense to reason, hastily-prepared gibberish. Keep up the good work! We will thank you in November.
Except that there is no evidence that taking it makes things worse for a healthy person, so it's not the liberal (leftist) approach at all. Their approach is like the lock down, even if you know it can have terrible consequences, you still gotta do something, and preferably the most controlling thing, even if there are better approaches possible.
Then, I certainly do not think Biden should take it under any circumstances. It would be crazy.
"There’s no serious medical person out there saying to use that drug. It’s counterproductive. It’s not going to help, but the president, he decided that’s an answer...."
So all the medical persons taking it themselves and giving it to their families are non-serious. Makes one wonder where they got their non-serious thoughts and ideas from.
I'm so old I remember when the Left kept yelling, "My body, my choice!"
Actually - the big lie is that the CloroquinQ drug (sp) is showing signs of helping fight the symptoms of the virus. Nurses are taking it. It's safe to take. You must get a prescription from your doc. (the main thing brushed over by the liar-left)
The collective liar-left reveal their irritation that a drug might work, & they are lying about it in every direction.
Nothing new.
Leftist Clintonists lie.
Doctors are making the drug available and that is pissing off the Wuhan-Hillary-Chi-Com rah! rah! go virus! Prog-left.
Also, interestingly, considering the rampant negative full-court press on the subject of hydroxycholorquine treatment regimens (with zinc and antibiotics), isn't the furious response to Trump's admission of his prescription a little odd? I have to say, I'm touched at this level of concern for his health, they really must love him. I guess this means that Nancy is praying for him again.
Is anybody out there really dumb enough to think Trump takes it because Trump, all on his own, decided he should? Is anybody out there dumb enough not to realize that he is taking it under close medical advise and supervision?
Seriously, how is THIS a controversy? How stupid are Trump haters?
A ten second Google search brings this from the FDA: FDA cautions against use of hydroxychloroquine or chloroquine for COVID-19 outside of the hospital setting or a clinical trial
A statement like that does seem to prove 'serious medical people' in hospitals and clinical trials are at least investigating the efficacy of the drugs for Covid. We do know hydroxychloroquine was determined safe for use as an anti-malarial and that 'serious medical people' seem to be making a medical cost/benefit judgement for it's use for covid as prophylaxis and in treatment.
I can't support politicians who are too dumb to make these distinctions. They sound like those lefite idiots who call a tax rate increase from 20% to 25% as 'only a five percent increase'.
brainslugs of ceti alpha 6 starved themselves, poor things,
Matt said...HOWEVER, if Trump really thinks that stuff is the answer, is he not leading by example by using it?
It's whatever liberals need it to be to criticize Trump. First the decision to criticize, then the search for a justification. That's how it works. Always.
Hey Joe - how's your rich son doing? I heard he's a useless stripper f*cking hollywood hill living taker- living high off the American tax payer dollar. Tax Payer Dollars cleaned by China and Ukraine.
I'm sorry. But Joe Biden has more things to worry about today than hydroxychloroquine.
You aren’t considering whether there are side effects to taking the drug. If it’s safe to use at a certain dosage, with minimal or no side effects, it would be very reasonable to take the drug because of the possible benefits. The conventional liberal position (do something, anything, just do something!) is not very reasonable because it doesn’t take into account the downsides.
It is not the case that no "serious medical people" would recommend Z-pac, some might regard it as malpractice not to prescribe it. IIRC one of the medical advisors in Italy said as much. The risks are well understood, it isn't anything like injecting Chlorox. Biden isn't being conservative, he is being political. Science has nothing to do with it.
So a well-accepted drug that has been used by millions of people for 65+ years (and used in other forms, like quinine, even longer) with a clear biochemical rationale of its effectiveness, if used in conjunction with zinc, likely has prophylaxis qualities. This is the same as injecting Clorox directly into your bloodstream. Sure Joe...go back to sleep.
And isn't it better to default to no until the "serious medical people" give something of a recommendation?
The FDC has given approval for doctors to prescribe hydroxychloroquine for Covid 19.
True, there are only retrospective studies showing mixed results and anecdotal information available. More definitive studies are underway. This is not just something Trump pulled out of his hat. The mechanism for how the drug may help is understood.
So with that, I would argue the conservative approach to this issue is to let people and their doctors decide for themselves if they want to take hydroxychloroquine or not. It isn't going to hurt you if you don't have a condition that contraindicates taking the drug.
There aren't a lot of good options available.
I think the best way to be healthy is to leave your body alone to fight illness with its natural mechanisms. Don't add anything
I think this assumes that natural selection has had sufficient opportunity to update the human genome to suit lifestyles, diets, and bio-threats common in modern America. I'm skeptical.
Also, did Ol' Joe just say that the President's personal physician is not a serious medical person?
Known side effect of chloroquine is heart arrhythmia which is bad for you and me, but the president is under constant doctor's monitor to catch the early signs. Methinks he takes the drug on his doctor's advice.
JFK could have given a few pointers about using prescription medications outside of FDA guidelines.
Biden is not being the conservative. He's just saying what his campaign advisors are telling him to say and working the ongoing narrative that Trump and his movement is anti-science and dangerous.
How do you know Biden isn't hitting the droxy?
Hey, Creepy Uncle Joe, you know what has an even higher body count than drinking Clorox? Statism. (See "Democide.")
Precautionary principle, they all love it except when Trump exercises it.
And how about Biden repeating another lie about Trump (injecting Clorox)? Not as bad as the Charlottesville quote lie, but still a lie. Is Trump's doctor, who he needed to prescribe this drug, not competent or a serious medical person?
Biden is a miserable POS and a terrible candidate.
Trump is exposed far more than the average person - he's working and his work includes being around military and media people who, in turn, are far exposed than the average person. In his home Trump is surrounded by the Secret Service who have a high rate of infection. So Trump is taking more precautions than the average person. He's also showing that he's aware that the regime he's on works only if you start early (- The whole hydroxy-D_C_zinc regime doesn't help much if you start late.) The FDA or whoever is testing the regime is starting the regime late in the disease course. It will conclude that the regime doesn't work. In time the American people will conclude that the FDA and CDC are about as good at their jobs as CNN. Their "epidemiologists" and their public health people are trained in sociology, psychology, history of epidemics and computer science with a minor in demography anyhow.
There is substantially more documented evidence of the efficacy of hydroxychloroquinine than there is for ANYTHING the butcher Cuomo ordered done in New York City.
"How stupid are Trump haters?"
More stupid than is possible to measure with existing technology, apparently.
How do you know Biden isn't hitting the droxy?
I can answer that - because he's cowering in his basement (recently promoted to the ground floor I believe). If you had mojo, if you were immune, you would be out and about.
how's the summons from judge vosk in the Ukrainian court,
"Do something, anything!"
Shut everything down! First, do enormous harm!
The statement that "no serious medical person is saying to use hydroxychloroquine" is clearly a false statement. Multiple doctors around the world have published that they are using it for their COVID-19 patients.
I never believe anything from people after they start their argument with a demonstrably false statement.
Trump started taking this about the same time a White House staffer tested positive for Covid 19 and it was a possibility that Trump could have been exposed.
I guess Trump asked his doctor and figured it was better to do something than to do nothing.
Alcohol shows a higher incidence of cardiac arrhythmia (atrial fibrillation) than hydroxychloroquine does of torsade de pointes. Biden should be hectoring Pelosi to lay off the booze.
I was thinking the other day that I don't even know what the argument against using zinc plus hydroxychloroquine plus azithromycin really is.
I mean you would think I would know all about it since the media is full of arguments against it. Well except every such article I've read seems to have stupid statements in it like an assertion that there is no scientific evidence for this or it has been disproven by studies. And both of these assertions are so wrong that I have problems with whatever else the person says.
What I'm looking for is intelligent -- my definition of intelligence -- arguments using the combo. I don't know where to go to find that.
Yes, I know very well that but normal standards we would never approve the use of such of drug combo short of a lot more study than currently exists. But we are not in a normal environment. We are in an environment where lockdowns are considered appropriate. My god, if a person thinks a lockdown is appropriate, then surely that person would not be standing in the way of people wanting to use zinc plus hydroxychloroquine plus azithromycin prophylactically, would they?
But even if by some convoluted reasoning a person is for lockdowns but opposed to using antivirals, then still that person should be all in favor of conducting trials to see if such a thing would work? Surely, they are. Right?!!
And surely they wouldn't be opposed to conducting multiple animal trials right away, since these can be conducted relatively quickly, and would give the quickest sign as to whether we are in the ballpark or not?
And further more, who and what is a lying, dog-faced pony soldier?
I must say that just thinking about Joe Biden and his career makes me angry. This nincompoop has been stumbling around the corridors of power since 1972.
Sheesh.
Vitamin supplements like B & C & D & E are fine things to add to a diet.
Like most things, just be careful not to overdo it.
Also, get some sunshine on your skin.
Althouse writes: I mean, I think the best way to be healthy is to leave your body alone to fight illness with its natural mechanisms. Don't add anything — except food... water... air.
In other words the state of medicine in the 14th century, and it worked perfectly for four Europeans out of ten. The remaining six died, usually within 48 hours of the first buboe eruption.
Either Althouse has a macabre sense of humor or her hold on reality gets slippery from time to time.
Dr. Biden (not a real doctor except if you ask him) believes the proper treatment for the Wuhan virus is a massive dose of authoritarian bureaucracy administered in suppository form along with the application of a poultice made of bovine excrement and the ashes of the Constitution.
While HCQ+AZ is a disinfectant cocktail, it is not bleach or another general purpose surface, fishtank cleaner. Of course, the conflation of these diverse chemical is an easy mistake to make. That said, Biden normalizes a straw clown, politically congruent apology at the risk of progressing excess deaths. #HateLovesAbortion
as the Todaro thread proves, they've implemented the death panels in predominantly blue states, what betsy McCaughey uncovered in the stimulus bill, that palin widely brought to light, they got rid of the ipab formerly, but Ezekiel emmanuels machinery of death is still on going,
The full bore press against hydroxycholoroquine is breath taking - is it all TDS?
Google and Youtube are censoring information on hydroxycholoroquine
YouTube censorship of hydroxychloroquine facts - Sharyl Attkisson
Media Matters Censorship - Sharyl Attkisson:
A tidy takedown of Media Matters and its propaganda about hydroxycholoroquine
Here is a claim that Google is even going after a Google Doc:
Google censors Google Doc of medical hydroxychloroquine coronavirus treatment trial paper
Twitter and FaceBook also seem to be censoring:
Tucker Carlson Decries Coronavirus ‘Censorship’: How Long Until They Say ‘Fox News Must Be Suppressed’ for Public Health?
First, do enormous harm!
The Hippocratic oath is a traditional, inconvenient commitment of an archaic patriarchal society.
So are we supposed to ignore the fact that doctors all across the country are using hydroxychloroquine in combination with Z pack to treat early stage COVID-19 with success?
I personally know several doctors doing so in Wisconsin and they have all agreed that this combination is highly effect prior to a certain stage of the COVID-19 disease. After the disease progresses to a certain point it appears to be ineffective.
Bay Area Guy - shhhhhhhh
HCQ has already been approved by the FDA since 1955. It's already approved for lupus and malaria. Once a drug is approved by the FDA, doctors can be prescribed for anything (called, "off-label" use)
Don't burst the liar left's lying talking point bubble.
From the post:
"And isn't it better to default to no until the "serious medical people" give something of a recommendation?"
No.
"Plunging into things that just might work is the approach I associate with the left. Do something, anything! It's not conservatism. Trump's eagerness to try this pushed his opponent into what I see as the conservative approach: Better to do nothing than to act and make things worse. Or, as I like to say, better than nothing is a high standard."
I don't think it has anything to do with conservatism. What we know so far about hydroxychloroquine + zinc is better than nothing,so it meets/exceeds that high standard. Aside from that, if doing nothing results in more COVID-19 deaths, who benefits, politically?
"I mean, I think the best way to be healthy is to leave your body alone to fight illness with its natural mechanisms. Don't add anything — except food... water... air. That's the presumption, and it should be hard to rebut the presumption."
Others in the comments have done a dandy job of rebutting that presumption.
Interesting enough, doctors that I know and who are not Republicans have no problem prescribing HCQ plus zinc and Zpack. They have even taken the combo themselves when exposed to Covid 19. One of them, a pulmonologist who contacted the virus working working the Covid 19 section of the ICU took the combo after starting to get the severe complications and two days later felt fine. Plugs Biden who was never known to posses any sort neurological firepower has further diminished the few neurons he had with his hair plugs causing ischemic damage to his few brain cells.
"Serious medical people?"
Like the dozens of doctors who've gone on TV or YouTube or Twitter and talked about the patients they've saved with HCQ+Zinc? Like the hundreds of nurses and doctors that are taking it under the table as a preventative? Like the researches who've written several papers about the effectiveness of HCQ+Zinc - setting aside the papers that excluded Zinc or only tested it on the sickest of the sick, thereby baiting a negative result?
Anyone seriously thinking about voting for Biden really needs to reevaluate their mindset. This is not about Trump. This is about medical science. And the evidence that this treatment works very well is hard to ignore unless it's "partisan uber alles" in your forebrain.
There are good people on both sides.
Yes. Trump is going to inject Clorox into your veins and then he's going to put everyone in chaaaaaaains!
Glenn Reynolds.
"Apparently the only coronavirus countermeasure that can’t be deployed without peer-reviewed, double-blind studies involving thousands ---> is hydroxychloroquine.<-----
For everything else it’s just go with your gut and shout “Science!” at anyone who expresses doubts."
Every-time the liar left say "Science!" - laugh hard.
The stupidity factor here for Slow Joe is high.
HCQ has already been approved by the FDA since 1955. It's already approved for lupus and malaria. Once a drug is approved by the FDA, doctors can prescribe it for anything (called, "off-label" use). Very common practice. The company, though, can't advertise the drug for "off-label uses." That's not kosher.
So, it may not work for CV19 patients or prevent anything, but its side effects are already well known and not that severe. Joe and the media are stupid here. With a "new disease" you don't wait for a new drug, you try already approved existing drugs, duh. Here's a 15 year old paper about its cousin Chloroquine on SARS. Maybe it'll work, maybe it won't. Let's see what the multiple studies say, (not that one reckless VA study). Here's a current letter that suggests HCQ may work.
There are numerous reports, from practicing physicians, of very dramatic improvement using HCQ. Then you have others, who say that they see no effect.
It seems to me that there are three possibilities;
1 - The doctors are lying. They actually have no patients with dramatic improvement.
2 - The doctors are mistaken about HCQ. Something else is causing the improvement.
3 - The doctors are right, and the people who get no effect are doing it wrong (no zinc, for example).
Any one see another possibility?
C'mon, Corn Pop Man, the National Center for Biotechnology Information has no serious medical persons saying to use that drug.
Two small human studies have been conducted with both these drugs in COVID-19, and have shown significant improvement in some parameters in patients with COVID-19.
These studies were all suggestive that chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine can successfully treat COVID-19 infections.
it's not merely stupid, we shut down the entire economy on the pretext of protecting the vulnerable, but the most vulnerable, get locked down in nursing facilities where flu patients are reintroduced, then the numbers are adjusted up to keep the bloody charade alive, then the most viable and effective treatment, is denied, proscribed or defamed,
Has complaining about Trump doing something by taking the drug replaced the complaints of him not doing anything preventative (not wearing a mask). Who cares what Trump and his doctor thinks is best, he should be doing what Democrats and journalists think is best!
NPR actually had a segment on Morning Edition that doctors are having trouble finding people for studies on hcq protecting against/treating covid-19. At least two doctors were interviewed who stated the drug was very safe and had been prescribed millions of times over decades. This information directly contradicted NPR's own reporting the night before that Trump was in grave danger from taking hcq. My own pulmonologist told me lots of medical personnel are taking hcq to prevent covid. Trump did not begin taking the drug until he had close exposure. That the left has so politicized this is horrifying. Media are actually endangering lives by scaring people away from a safe drug. I would like to know how many arthritis and lupus patients have stopped taking hcq because the media have convinced them the drug will cause heart failure.
I said it should be hard to rebut the presumption against drugs, not impossible. The testing and approval of drugs is methodical and scientific. That’s what my presumption is referring to.
"I think the best way to be healthy is to leave your body alone to fight illness with its natural mechanisms."
I guess Althouse won't be taking the vaccine. That comment to Meade about remarrying is looking more noteworthy.
Seriously, how is THIS a controversy? How stupid are Trump haters??
We see this here every day. Hi Inga, Hi ARM.
As I understand it, the VA study just looked at outcomes after the fact. It wasn't a study where people with Covid were grouped and given the drug and compared to see if it worked. In the VA study, the people who had received the drug were a lot sicker than the people who hadn't. That's why they were given the drug. It was sort of a last resort.
But the drug's action is to prevent the virus from replicating and getting the upper hand in the first place. If the virus has already firmly established itself throughout the body and damaged it's systems, it's too late. You have to take the droxy early for it to be effective, apparently.
There are, no doubt, other commenters who know more about this than I do. If I'm wrong here I'm happy to be corrected.
https://www.sermo.com/covid-19-press-releases/
33,700 doctor interviews, globally 55% have treated with HCQ per this report
Yeah, attacking the president for choosing to use a drug that is very well known simply because it *might* not be effective against a specific malady seems like a pointless argument. It's like arguing against taking various dietary supplements since they may be of questionable effectiveness.
Instead of constantly attacking Trump over every little thing, perhaps it might be more effective to be more selective. And don't be afraid to compliment him every now and again. These endless attacks over every last thing Trump says and does makes the Media and the Dems seem silly, obsessed, and derranged. But I know this'll fall on deaf ears.
The testing of drugs is methodical and scientific, but sometimes impossible especially in a short time. You can't do a double-blind test on humans easily or quickly. (For example, the very small 'Quine tests have been done on late-stage patients, while the clinicians favoring (I hate the word "touting") it say you have to use it early, as an, um, prophylactic.
Trump is in a unique position. He's been exposed, but cannot self-isolate. His willingness to take 'Quine even and indeed especially if it has SOME risk, is a testament to his desire not only to protect himself but OTHERS.
In favor of the 'Quine is we have fifty years of experience with it (and a lot of clinician evidence, i.e., what ivory tower types would call "anecdotal") and the serious side effects are few. Interestingly, the main one has the wonderful name of "torsades de pointes," because the EKG reminded the (male) doctor who discovered it of the braids of a women's hair.
If this is "war", as the NYT likes to say, then you take short cuts based on experience. Also, when is the last time Anthony Fauci treated a Covid victim? He is not a clinician. Clinician experience counts for something. If its snake oil, other clinicians will outweigh the proponents.
Finally, there is very little settled medical science. (Ask Ignaz Semmelweis, who save more women's lives than any one else in history, Jonas Salk possibly excepted.) We hear a lot about Dr Fauci being a Nobel prize "laureate" (don't you hate that locution, Ann? he....garnered... a Nobel prize.). well, guess who disagrees with him? Luc Montagnier, who won the same prize the same year for the same thing (HIV research). Science progresses by disagreement.
The meta problem is how people who don't understand science think science works.
Anyone that actually understands how science works would know that argument by authority isn't science. And if they know the history of science, such a person would know that science has always stood in opposition to argument by authority -- or at least in spirit. It is supposed to be the universe, through experiment, that chooses between opposing arguments.
And implicit in that is of course that you will have people arguing for different ideas and hypotheses, and engaging with and criticizing other ideas from the perspective of the data, and accepting, or at least the people watching these people will accept, evidence from the universe to the contrary.
Thus when we see Google censuring and removing scientific papers, we will know we are not in Kansas anymore.
We will know that we are rapidly moving back to the norm of human history, argument by received authority.
And strangely, or perhaps not so strangely, those who are opposed to argument and debate and experiment on this will claim to be doing this in the name of Science.
Joe is currently touting the sniffing of young girls hair as a cure for coronavirus.
HCQ+AZ works with the body's systems to disinfect the virus. It is most effective before the disease progresses and irreparably impairs function and damages organs.
American conservatism is prudent and bold.
Althouse. You should take 2000 units of D3 daily. With or without a lurking virus.
Stupid Italians (Malaysians, French, Costa Ricans) putting HCQ in frontline treatment.
Vote for the other Biden.
Just wash your shoes.
And vote for the other Biden.
I am starting to understand Biden's appeal to Democrats, aside from the fact he is not Bernie.
Slow Joe is willing to parrot any DNC Media talking point that he is given, without question.
That is if he remembers the talking point or can read it from the teleprompter.
This serves their purpose well. He will not be the candidate for the Dems, but he will attack Trump in his own incoherent fashion until they select their true POTUS nominee.
I don't get it. The lefties want Trump dead, if they believe that the drug endangers him they should cheer when he takes it!
The irrationality has entered a new phase. Some days it seems like a Rick and Morty universe.
Here's Off-Label Use according to the American Cancer Society.
It's not complicated, Joe.
AA taking heat for: ""I think the best way to be healthy is to leave your body alone to fight illness with its natural mechanisms."
She's basically right. The human body has 30 Trillion cells and 40 Trillion bacteria, and possibly 400 Trillion viruses, all swirling about you, mostly in your gut.
So, general health, (good diet, good sanitation, good exercise) breeds a healthy immune system that handles all these trillions of critters each day.
The vaccines, hopefully, (about 50 or so) handle the remaining problematic critters.
https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-39054778
At this point, anyone dumb enough to shell out thousands of dollars for new drugs, or ready to inject whatever vaccine Gates decides to pimp, is far more stupid than anyone mainlining Clorox injections. And all of them, to a man, will be smarter and more lucid than Joe fucking Biden.
it's crystal clear, by now, they want more people to suffer from the deprivation of the flatline which includes non attended medical conditions, and to die for lack of treatment, by a readily accessible means, it's the blood price they think is necessary to get rid of trump, and to usher the green new deal, so evil it's hard to fathom it,
If Biden caught COVID-19, I would pretty much bet the farm that he would ask to get a prescription for hydroxychloroquine on the down-low.
My position all along has been that it probably doesn't have a beneficial biological effect on the course of the disease, but it could have a placebo effect very easily (this is, by the way, one of the two main reasons we do double blind studies on new treatments when possible). However, what I find increasingly curious is this- there are a dearth of study results being published recently in the media which does suggest to me that, perhaps, there is a beneficial effect being found, even if it is just placebo effect.
I actually think Trump is making the right call for himself here if he's actually taking the stuff, which who knows?
He needs to have medical help to help boost his immunity because he doesn't exercise he eats shit food is obese and he's on other "supplements" to keep him Peppy and snappy. Doctors are forced to provide pills to people because making lifestyle changes (the only cure for metabolic syndrome) is impossible for most.
From what I understand the most important things to take as a supplement is vitamin D. Personally I'm taking chelated zinc vitamin c vitamin D colloidal minerals and resveritrol. I'm also working out like a madman and eating low on the food chain to stay thin.
Cutting out sugar and alcohol and corn fed beef and trans fats while increasing soluble and insoluble fiber, even if you are a big fat pig, will reduce your metabolic syndrome and you will lose the liver fat that helps the Covid-19 cyclotronic storm go supercritical.
"It's like saying maybe if you inject Clorox into your blood it may cure you"
Patently untrue, but at least it's a comprehensible statement.
"The testing and approval of drugs is methodical and scientific."
Testing and approval are, but introduction and use are not. Individual doctors can and do make educated guesses about what might work on a specific patient, and if it works the practice will spread to other doctors. What the FDA will try to shut down is a drug maker promoting the drug for one of those purposes, unless the drug maker does a whole new clinical trial to prove that specific effectiveness.
hydroxy needs to have the zinc with it because it's real function is to get zinc into your cells which boost your immunity by stopping the von willebrand factor induced oxidative stress that causes all of the multi organ/system damage.
proof it's deliberate,
https://apelbaum.wordpress.com/2020/05/19/us-free-speech-meet-your-wealthy-chinese-fact-checker/
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2020/05/12/magazine/didier-raoult-hydroxychloroquine.amp.html
This is a very interesting story about a true scientific Maverick who has had a lot of success without performing clinical trials or double-blind studies. Just ignore the typical New York times slant and political correctness.
It's like the old SNL line by Tina Fey that ignorant people STILL attribute to Sarah Palin (I can see Russia from my house!). Trump never said that, and the idiots who keep repeating it are really trying hard to cover up all the crap Obama's administration put us through. Anybody who actually believes this crap and the media is nuts. No wonder why we are losing our country. Ignorance is bliss I guess.
A job for hackers and actual journalists:
How many elderly Democrats in Washington are taking secret prescriptions of hydroxycholorquine?
Howard, you might be interested to know that I had metabolic syndrome and that I got rid of it by changing the foods that I eat. It is possible to completely reverse it.
For the past three days -- without any interruption, except for commercials -- CNN has been talking about President Trump taking hydroxychloroquine.
To quote Ann Althouse from yesterday: "Do people who want Trump to fail ever get tired of posing as if they're offering to help him avoid failure?"
To quote Joe Biden from today: "Folks, I'm Joe Biden. I'm not a doctor, but watch me play one on TV."
Cue Howie's Health Corner.
The WH doc who prescribed it released a letter saying so.
But..maybe Trump is flushing them.
Yeah..that's the ticket.
Joe, hydroxychloroquine has been around for years--and used to treat a lot of things.
But you ought to start worrying when your wife "Dr. Jill" comes home with some fish tank cleaner and prescribes a dose for you. Tests in Arizona show that prescription can be fatal.
impeach #3!
I may have seen this elsewhere, but I wish wish wish that Trump would say he drank water every day just to see the Lefties contort themselves into arguing against drinking water.
I assume no one seriously thinks Trump is taking the drug. He lies about everything, why not this. It is just one more pathetically desperate attempt to draw attention to himself.
Biden has become America’s resident senile comedian. The people that are handling him must be appallingly bad.
The testing and approval of drugs requires passing two tests: is it safe? and is it effective? HCQ passed the is it safe threshold in the 1950s testing. It has not been proven (with rigorous testing) to be effective in fighting the COVID 19 disease. And that will take time. So is Althouse arguing that drugs that are known to be safe but have not been proven effective in treating certain conditions should not be used to treat those conditions? How far would she go with this approach? Should people be outlawed from taking (say) fish oil in the belief that it reduces probability of a heart attack? Almost any over the counter vitamin or nutritional supplement falls into this category -- safe, but not proven effective.
Well, here's the reverse divining rod of WHO opining:
"COVID-19: WHO warns of potential hydroxychloroquine side effects"
Ann is being willfully blind about the left's jihad against hydroxychloroquine. Here's a quote from the Hill's article linked in Ann's post: "Biden added that he believes Trump is setting a bad example, especially since medical experts have warned that the anti-malaria drug should not be taken outside a hospital or clinical trial because of the risk of severe heart problems."
Even a casual reader of the comments here would know that the quoted sentence should end: "unless you are taking it as an anti-malarial drug or for Rheumatoid Arthritis, or for Lupus -- in which case, it's fine if prescribed."
The Hill's version is lying and deceptive, and even Ann should be able to tell this is nothing more than medicalized TDS.
If you're will to call out Biden for repeated the Charlottesville Hoax, why give him a pass on repeateing the "Trump wants you to inject Clorox hoax"?
The lockstep condemnation of hydroxy-whatever is the most bizarre thing I've ever seen. I can understand saying that it hasn't been fully tested against this virus, that we need to test dosages and combinations and timings, and that maybe it won't work at all or will only work in certain cases. But the immediate reaction to say it doesn't work and it will kill you, ignoring the anecdotal evidence, and cherry picking "studies" that suit the narrative is truly troubling. Just when you think the mass hysteria can't get any worse, it does.
There are several sources/groups/studies that have used the drug with some success. The leftmediaswine do not cover them.
Here is a clarification from the rag in question about the study most often cited by left wing moonbats. https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/495409-va-secretary-defends-use-of-hydroxychloroquine-for-veterans-claims
Oh! https://aapsonline.org/hcq-90-percent-chance/
Biden’s Derangement is not a syndrome.
Beijing Boy: "I assume no one seriously thinks Trump is taking the drug. He lies about everything, why not this."
Note: ARM, to this day, claims there is no evidence to demonstrate the ChiCom/WHO Wuhan Lab Bat/Pangolin Flu originated in China.
Discuss.
Every drug was untested before it was tried. Every new disease has no treatment until one is tried, whether the treatment is new, or has already been in use for some other illness. I wonder if Biden was opposed to all the new drugs and vaccines that have come along for the past century, give or take, he’s been alive.
Dems are hoping that no safe and effective treatment will be found, or revealed to the public, until after the ejection.
One might think that the extension of life expectancy and effective disappearance of multiple diseases that were once a regular, ravaging part of life, these things occurring rather neatly with the development of vaccines and antibiotics (and these days, antiviral drugs) would suggest that leaving the body solely to its own devices to fight some diseases is not the correct approach. That didn't work out so well with smallpox. Or polio. Or TB. Or...
It's politics. Trump says hydroxychloroquine is great, so Democrats and the press feel compelled to say it doesn't work and it's dangerous. If the president didn't talk about hydroxychloroquine, they'd ask, "Why haven't you released this wonder drug? Why are you holding back its approval? Do you want people to die?"
There's a tension between conservative optimism and conservative pessimism: the general consensus seems to be that Reagan's boosterism is a vote-getter and Hoover's dour and forbidding gloominess isn't. On the other side of the aisle, the contrast is between FDR's buoyant optimism and the pessimism of today's environmental movement.
It's best for politicians if they don't take either optimism or pessimism in its pure form. They can't say "Deficits don't matter" and get away with it, but they also can't say "The deficit is going to kill us" and expect to get elected. Politicians have to be able to cover their pessimism with thick layers of optimism.
Bernie Sanders and AOC have what looks to me like a very gloomy view of the American future, but they have managed to get some young people very excited about it. Calvin Coolidge could be dour and tight-lipped and discourage innovation, because the country was changing and growing so much during his administration that people didn't need to have a very active, emoting, charismatic leader in charge. People today are different and expect politicians to be exciting and colorful and to give them the hope and change that they don't see in the world or in themselves.
The stupidity factor here for Slow Joe is high.
But not nearly as high as those who plan to vote for him.
Bizarre post. Just the opposite of sense. https://twitter.com/ScottAdamsSays/status/1262786448685588480
Anyone who says that "no serious medical person out there saying to use that drug. It’s counterproductive." is just too cut off from accurate information to listen to.
Read the thread.
AMA=the Left
And isn't it better to default to no until the "serious medical people" give something of a recommendation?
@Althouse, you are forgetting that high profile cases like David Lat and Chris Cuomo were treated with hydroxychloroquine plus zinc? Are you suggesting that their respective doctors were not “serious medical people”? Or perhaps you would have been happier to see both of these men die? David Lat, in particular, was on a ventilator when he was treated with hydroxychloroquine plus Z-packs plus zinc, and in something like 24 hours he was off the ventilator and recovering.
So c’mon woman! Just ‘cause Trump says or does something doesn’t make it wrong.
(Though I concede that if Biden says something then it’s probably not only wrong, but wrong on multiple levels).
Biden's probably taking it too.
The takeaway from Joe's comments is how little information it takes for him to believe himself an expert. Then understand this is the left's complaint about Trump which Biden endorses.
Ah, it recalls the great Obama days..."I know more about every policy than my policy experts". But that Trump is a terrible person, he thinks he knows everything.
Given how the latest evolving story from Susan Rice about her ludicrous CYA memo now involves her claim she was directed to write it at the direction of obambis White House Counsel and all signs point to the administration setting up Comey and Brennan to take the fall with Clappy Clapper as the leaking fall guy, I think it would be wise to keep all clorox away from those dudes lest they go the way of some others.......
I wonder if Joe Biden and Neil Cavuto realize they have created apprehension in some of many people with serious health conditions who per a MD's recommendation take HCQ for reasons other than the Wuhan Virus.
The Association of American Physicians and Surgeons wrote to Gov. Ducey of Arizona asking that he lift restrictions on hydroxychloroquine.
Creepy Joe and the other left wingers are either incorrigible hacks, nutcases or pussies. I will embrace the magic of AND to assert they are all three.
Also, the leftmediaswine are really carrying their corruption beyond the pale with their chloroquine bullshit.
Here is the AAPS article: https://aapsonline.org/hcq-90-percent-chance/
From Wikipedia
Hydroxychloroquine was approved for medical use in the United States in 1955. It is on the World Health Organization's List of Essential Medicines, the safest and most effective medicines needed in a health system. In 2017, it was the 128th most commonly prescribed medication in the United States, with more than five million prescriptions.
It's safe enough that it's used to treat rheumatic disease in pregnant women.
If you click on the tag hydroxychloroquine in the Hill article and scroll down, you will find the earlier article with the head of the VA saying that analyses of the study are misleading. But so what, if it gets Trump.
mandrewa: That's great news. I was never diabetic or pre-diabetic, but cut sugar about 6-years ago after seeing Dr. Lustig's youtube video "Sugar, the Bitter Truth."
Thanks for linking to MedCram. Have really learned alot from that guy. He's a great teacher.
There are doctors prescribing a cocktail of hydroxychloroquine and zinc in the early stages of exposure/illness, so it is inappropriate to say "no serious medical person".
Besides Trump has Nancy Pelosi's prayers to protect him. If that doesn't protect him, I don't know what will.
https://tallahasseereports.com/2020/05/20/rebekah-jones-firing-is-the-covid-clickbait-the-media-dreams-of-but-its-all-fake/
Howard said... He needs to have medical help to help boost his immunity because he doesn't exercise he eats shit food
My (life long Democrat) wife knows Trump from her days in NYC Arts fundraising. She dined with him several times. He eats quite well, although he likes steaks well done. He never ordered off the menu in her experience. He had chefs create very nice dishes for him. Lobster is one of his favorites.
IMO, He created the "fast food" meme to endear himself to working class folks.
Don't believe the bullshit you read in the papers or watch on TV. It makes people sound like Inga.
Joe Biden, November 19, 1863,
"Come on,man, like four score and something ago, eh, a bunch of years ago them guys wrote down the malarkey that we're all equal, the same, well, you know, and then . . ."
Howie's Health Corner
Nice.
I have "C'mon, man" on my Biden Bingo board.
What do I win?
"Or, as I like to say, better than nothing is a high standard."
I think you mean "first do no harm." Doing nothing is the zero, or idle position on the action scale. It's hardly a high standard, it's merely a starting point. Any action taken that does not involve harm sets a higher standard the first time it occurs, hence, "do no harm."
What does Uncle Joe think of using rat poison for preventing blood clots and strokes? You know, Warfarin?
Insty just wrote this on a link regarding swimming pools having been closed despite no evidence they could transmit the virus (or any virus):
"Apparently the only coronavirus countermeasure that can’t be deployed without peer-reviewed, double-blind studies involving thousands is hydroxychloroquine. For everything else it’s just go with your gut and shout “Science!” at anyone who expresses doubts."
An MD was on local news in Los Angeles about the "controversy." He said heart arrythmia etc. are possible side effects, but the real side effect is in making HCQ harder to obtain for lupus patients who need it.
This reminds me of the strategy to conserve masks back in March: lie that masks are ineffective. It's easier to train people off seeking HCQ trail if they think it's dangerous than if they think others need it more. In the short run, lying to appeal to self-interest is more effective than the truth.
In the short run.
Trump gets tested for Covid-19 every day and he also takes some dosage of the malaria drug, hydroxychloroquine but apparently he doesn't yet gargle with Chlorox.
Chris Cuomo, who contracted Covid-19, takes quinine, a less complex Malaria killer compound that his wife extracts from Cinchona ("fever tree") bark.
But "Tweety" and "Fredo" both missed the boat. Back in the 1800s, British troops in India drank quinine every morning to prevent contracting malaria. As extracted, quinine is bitter so the Brits mixed in flavoring to ease the taste that evolved into tonic water to which they added gin. After a few good-tasting G&Ts - your worries disappear.
The approach of the Leftist Collectivists is to ban DDT because a woman wrote a book.
And the book was wrong about just about everything.
So there's that.
To answer the previous question, no. They are no ways tired of offering the President advice.
Obvious question:
What is the correct medication for covid patients?
It’s just not true that there is no evidence. That is just false.
It works in vitro. There is peer reviewed science about its effect on pH via zinc. There are French studies.
It’s not proof. It is not *strong* evidence. But it *is* evidence and it’s not chopped liver. Maybe it’s a bad idea. It’s not an unevidenced idea.
The injecting Clorox comparison is stupid.
Lurker21 said...
I have "C'mon, man" on my Biden Bingo board.
What do I win?
A free Michigan haircut.
Don't forget to tip your hairdresser $1000 to cover the fine.
Good thing Gadfly brings up the quinine history that was being discussed 6+ weeks ago. That boat's been around the world.
Big Mike,
FWIW, Lat had a lot of things thrown at him. According to him, hard to know what actually did the trick.
For all the Euro worshipping the Left does, they are willing to ignore HCQ embrace elsewhere..because Truuuummmmpppp!
Sigh.
As if this has not been discussed over and over and over and over and over here in these pages for the last ten weeks.
I assumed Trump was giving the 'all clear' signal on the drug.
They have had enough time to ramp up production since it was first 'touted' as a possible preventative/cure for the 'Rona.
Ken B said...
It’s just not true that there is no evidence. That is just false.
It works in vitro. There is peer reviewed science about its effect on pH via zinc. There are French studies.
It’s not proof. It is not *strong* evidence. But it *is* evidence and it’s not chopped liver. Maybe it’s a bad idea. It’s not an unevidenced idea.
The injecting Clorox comparison is stupid.
They are creating straw men to fight against. The democrats have no useful arguments so they make them up.
You have a lot of experience doing that yourself.
I fucking hate the total ignorance to dose-response in these discussions. Or that sometimes, a drug works well for a good amount of the population BUT NOT ENOUGH and therefore doesn't pass a traditional broad population clinical trial.
"OMG, HCL can cause heart arrythmias!"
"OMG, I'm going to ignore a massively used drug deemed safe and effective at several doses used by tens of millions of people for decades and call it ANTI SCIENCE instead."
"OMG, this drug has only been used in already hospitalized patients and studies on healthy volunteers trying to prevent infection have not yet been done but i'll totally say its been proven to be ineffective!"
I could go on and on. Really smart people go to such lengths to sound dumb sometimes.
"I think the best way to be healthy is to leave your body alone to fight illness with its natural mechanisms. Don't add anything — except food... water... air."
--
And masks.
Biden - just more propoganda piggy-backing on TDS from the MSM. I guess he never checked this out:
https://www.ptcommunity.com/wire/65-percent-physicians-new-survey-would-give-anti-malaria-drugs-their-own-family-treat-covid-19
Trump isn't gonna get coronavirus, because he's taking a drug cocktail that prevents it, and that's a damn good thing.
Sigh.
As if this has not been discussed over and over and over and over and over here in these pages for the last ten weeks.
Yabbut, the trolls have to have a reason to live.
I think the best way to be healthy is to leave your body alone
This will become known as the Blind Faith defense...
As with any drug, vaccine, etc., the doctor will determine if the individual is, based on interaction, physiology, risk, and other factors, a suitable candidate for treatment. For example, there are reasons why vaccines are not generally prescribed, up to and including a loss of viability.
Maybe Biden is just giving cover to Gov. Whither who should be held criminally liable for preventing HCQ use in Michigan during the worse of the pandemic.
It seems production has increased either X6 or X10 from what I read online. And is even being produced in the US again.
It seems the US has 26 Million Pills now in the U.S. Strategic National Stockpile.
This may be out of date now, demand was falling pre Trump use announcement:
https://www.statnews.com/pharmalot/2020/04/28/covid19-coronavirus-hydroxycholoroquine-lupus-trump/
>They have had enough time to ramp up production
As if this has not been discussed over and over and over and over and over here in these pages for the last ten weeks.
It is the only news they have. They can't cover sports or movies, so they are recycling the news from 10 weeks ago. BTW, have you heard that journalist have been getting laid off? Makes you wonder.
Drago said…"Note: ARM, to this day, claims there is no evidence to demonstrate the ChiCom/WHO Wuhan Lab Bat/Pangolin Flu originated in China."
CHY-NA! Ya gotta get the pronunciation right.
Ever have a tooth ache? Ever take a drug to deal with the symptoms - pain and inflammation - even though you knew for a fact the drug isn't dealing with the "root" cause?
In fact treating symptoms rather than causes is fairly common. Sometimes doctors don't even have a clue about causes. But they treat pain and fever and congestion and tachycardia and constipation ... Sometimes, the cause is known and known NOT to be the root cause. For example one may have some sort of immune system over-reaction. So doctors administer anti-histamines.
The HCQ treatment, if I understand it, like the latter example. The doctors are treating the symptom of a body's over-reaction to the virus.
Is this worse than fresh air and sunshine?
the best way to be healthy is to leave your body alone to fight illness with its natural mechanisms
Generally, this is the beast treatment, and based on the high infection and low mortality rate of SARS-CoV-2, is why they recommend to not rush medical facilities, which, barring physical and provider isolation, have been common paths for transmission. Well, that, and nursing homes, by individual count, but, curiously, not geographical spread.
Birkel said...
The approach of the Leftist Collectivists is to ban DDT because a woman wrote a book.
And the book was wrong about just about everything.
Ahh yes, all the end of times predictions.
DDT caused the almost extinction of the Bald Eagle. Thinning of eggshells reduced live hatchlings. That is whats called SWAG. Scientific Wild Ass Guess.
The thinning egg shell guess, was from a single examination of a nesting pelican population on the California coast.
From that you got a bunch of extrapolation, with no science involved.
I know in Iowa, the last nesting pair of Bald Eagles in Iowa was cited in 1917, before they started to repopulate in the 50 & 60s, before DDT was banned. You look up for yourself when DDT was first discovered and used in the US. (pro tip, not before 1917)
"The testing and approval of drugs is methodical and scientific."
And that rigorous testing was done wnen you were a small child.
Why the disingenuous pretense that this is some mystery drug that, gosh, we just don't know that much about.
"As if this has not been discussed over and over and over and over and over here in these pages for the last ten weeks."
LMAO, you act like science has been clearly laid out and something was proven other than that people like to pretend to be experts at everything here.
This place reminds me of the South Park where the so called adults love the smell of their own farts as the attitude and cluelessness are the same.
If you cannot even convince the blog host despite weeks of trying, perhaps your case isn't as good as you believe.
I take Vitamin D. I do so because my medical school professor medical researcher brother in law doctor tells me everyone in Canada is deficient in the winter. Doctors here no longer test for deficiency, they suggest supplements. I imagine Wisconsinites should take it too.
Ann Althouse said...
I said it should be hard to rebut the presumption against drugs, not impossible. The testing and approval of drugs is methodical and scientific. That’s what my presumption is referring to.
This represents a misunderstanding of statistical decision theory. During WWII, when conducting "methodical" quality-control testing at a normal bureacratic pace had an extraordinary opportunity cost, an elite group of statisticians developed "sequential analysis" to help us beat the Nazis. And I've been told by numerous prominent Democrats that we're in a war against another mortal enemy right now.
Tim maguire
They are pretty stupid. Jerry Coyne thinks that hallucinations, which are a side effect, explain some of Trump's actions! Unbelievably stupid.motivated stupidity.
Narciso the link you posted was excellent. What was really interesting is the comments. A few willfully stupid people cherry pick out of context to make a point that the very article refutes. Willful reading comprehension. You see it hear as well as well as on any serious blog or paper.
Christopher Steele just sent Joe Biden a new classified paper that proves injecting Chlorox not only prevents contracting COVID-19, but that it also cures dementia. We don't know who paid Steele to gather this information.
It is amazing to realize that Joe Biden is completely unaware of everything we have been saying in these comments. And everyone around him is also completely unaware. How is that even possible? They must have special filters on their internet that prevent their seeing anything that hasn't been pre-approved by Jeff Zuckerberg, George Soros and Igna. I mean, how can one sustain that level of ignorance?
Wow. I think narciso answered my question.
Chloroquine as prophylactic agent against COVID-19?
Chloroquine, an antimalarial drug, has been shown to be effective in vitro against the novel coronavirus SARS-CoV-2 formerly named 2019-nCoV, in Vero E6 cells with effective concentration 50% (EC50) of 1.1 µM and EC90 of 6.9 µM [1]. Hydroxychloroquine, used in autoimmune diseases such as rheumatoid arthritis and lupus, has also demonstrated in vitro antiviral activity against SARS-CoV-2 causing coronavirus diseases 2019 (COVID-19) with EC50 of 0.72 µM [2]. Hydroxychloroquine was found to be more potent than chloroquine phosphate (EC50=5.47 µM) [2]. Chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine seem to inhibit the fusion of the virus to the cell membrane by modulation of the endosomal pH [3]. These drugs can also inhibit nucleic acid replication. Twenty three clinical trials have been conducted in China to investigate the efficacy and safety of chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine in the treatment of COVID-19 [4], [5], [6]. Chloroquine phosphate has demonstrated marked efficacy in treatment of COVID-19 with few severe adverse reactions in more than 100 patients by shortening hospital stay and improving the clinical evolution [5]. These findings led to Chinese expert recommendations stating that patients with mild, moderate and severe cases of COVID-19 and without chloroquine contraindications should be treated with chloroquine phosphate at a dose of 500 mg twice per day for 10 days [7]. Preliminary clinical data showed that hydroxychloroquine at 600 mg daily cured 70% of the patients (no=20) at day 6 after the first drug intake [8]. Efficacy of hydroxychloroquine was improved by combination with azithromycin. Azithromycin is an antibiotic with antiviral properties demonstrated against other RNA-viruses such as Zika virus [9,10]. The 6 patients treated with hydroxychloroquine associated with azithromycin (500 mg at day 1 followed by 250 mg per day the next 4 days) were virologically cured at day 6 (100%) in comparison with patients treated with only hydroxychloroquine (57.1%) or without treatment (12.5%) [8]. These results are promising and should be supplemented by a larger number of observations. Importantly, therapeutic interventions using high dosage chloroquine and/or in combination with macrolides may have severe side-effects including cardiac toxicity. A prophylactic approach at lower dosage could be generalized on a global scale and administrated in vulnerable persons with comorbidities at-risk of severe COVID-19.
. . .
Sigh.
As if this has not been discussed over and over and over and over and over here in these pages for the last ten weeks.
If you cannot even convince the blog host despite weeks of trying, perhaps your case isn't as good as you believe.
That was the point of my sigh, "Mark," as well as the comment about being obtuse in the other thread. I wasn't just referring to the invincible ignorance of the commenters.
What the Hell are you talking about? Biden's comment is CRAZY! Its not "conservative" it shows he is senile and has ZERO idea what HCQ is and what's going on.
Trump's doctor approved this. Doctors and front line workers are using HCQ and are prescribing it for patients around the world. Its effectiveness has not scientifically proven, but its NOT harmful. Unless you have certain medical conditions. Its a 40 year old drug, used by Millions. The worst you can say about it, is that HCQ and the Zinc pack are ineffective against CV-19 aka its no worse than a placebo. And IT MAY BE WORKING in certain people and certain people.
So, Biden's position is NUTS! Its nothing like putting cleaning fluid in your veins. Why can't the Democrats/Press just shut up about HCQ and let the medicos do their job? Why do they have to attack EVERYTHING related to Trump? Insane.
I'm not even going to read the comments. Its just the same damn thing - over and over. You tell them facts about HCQ, you point out what Trump is doing and why, and they come back with the same old goddamn lying NYT/Democrat talking points.
J. Melcher, it's not about treating the symptoms it's about treating the disease itself.
n.n. keeps posting links to two key papers that explain the reasoning and I'm glad he does so. There are at least eleven theories about why it is the zinc plus hydroxychloroquine plus azithromycin would inhibit the virus.
One theory is based on the observation that elevated zinc ion levels in the cytoplasm slow down the functioning of RNA dependent RNA polymerase about two hundred fold. RNA dependent RNA polymerase is an enzyme used by all of the positive strand RNA virus. SARS-COV-2 (the Covid-19 virus) is a positive strand RNA virus.
It's difficult to elevate zinc ion levels inside the cells of our body to the necessary level. Just taking zinc isn't going to do it. Hydroxychloroquine is a zinc ionophore. That is it embeds itself in cellular membranes and transports zinc across the membrane which will elevate cytoplasmic zinc levels assuming there is sufficient zinc outside.
It's assumed slowing the replication of the virus down one hundred to two hundred fold has a positive effect on people.
The original idea for this came from experiments with zinc and hydroxychloroquine some years ago, and I think the virus targeted was SARS. It's assumed that the same will be true for SARS-COV-2 and May 8th retrospective study from the New York University Langone Health research hospital involving hundreds of people strongly supports this.
But if this is the explanation for why this drug combo works then the natural question should be well why wouldn't another zinc ionophore like for instance quercetin also work?
Well I think that's a good question and it should be explored.
The other ten theories are very briefly laid out by Didier Raoult in "New insights on the antiviral effects of chloroquine against coronavirus: What to expect for COVID-19".
This is really the work of a whole bunch of researchers.
So Raoult lists all of the viruses that chloroquine is known to inhibit. There are 18 and I'll skip naming them all but you would recognize many of them.
He then lists what looks like ten different theories as to what it is that chloroquine is doing when it inhibits a virus. This is obviously a summary of the work of others and I don't know that reading the Raoult paper is a much of a help to understanding all of this since each idea is covered in only a few sentences, but the Raoult paper of course has the names of many of the papers that will cover each theory in greater depth.
Pro-Choice is the pessimist's philosophy. Pro-Life is the optimist's philosophy.
Bob Boyd: "As I understand it, the VA study just looked at outcomes after the fact. It wasn't a study where people with Covid were grouped and given the drug and compared to see if it worked. In the VA study, the people who had received the drug were a lot sicker than the people who hadn't. That's why they were given the drug. It was sort of a last resort.
But the drug's action is to prevent the virus from replicating and getting the upper hand in the first place. If the virus has already firmly established itself throughout the body and damaged it's systems, it's too late. You have to take the droxy early for it to be effective, apparently.
There are, no doubt, other commenters who know more about this than I do. If I'm wrong here I'm happy to be corrected."
That is exactly correct. Tens of thousands of persons have been treated by physicians using the hydroxychloroquine combination. The ones treated early have generally done well. In the late stages it is not the virus that is the problem, but the exploding immune system.
Studies have been done in several cities in the U.S., in France, in South Korea, and elsewhere with generally good results. Probably several tens of thousands have received the medication.
Randomized controlled clinical trials are not always helpful, and they take a lot of time. The "classic" study of whether to do such a study is this article in the British Medical Journal: "Parachute use to prevent death and major trauma related to gravitational challenge: systematic review of randomised controlled trials" https://www.bmj.com/content/327/7429/1459
This more recent study in the same journal is worth reading, too (if you need a laugh or two right now): "Parachute use to prevent death and major trauma when jumping from aircraft: randomized controlled trial" https://www.bmj.com/content/363/bmj.k5094 (open access). "Intervention: Jumping from an aircraft (airplane or helicopter) with a parachute versus an empty backpack (unblinded)." "Conclusions: Parachute use did not reduce death or major traumatic injury when jumping from aircraft in the first randomized evaluation of this intervention. However, the trial was only able to enroll participants on small stationary aircraft on the ground, suggesting cautious extrapolation to high altitude jumps. "
The testing and approval of drugs is methodical and scientific. That’s what my presumption is referring to.
@Althouse, the difference is that we are in a pandemic, and there is no time for “methodical” (meaning “slow”). And FWIW the US FDA is unusually slow. This is because the official in charge of the FDA review, Frances Oldham Kelsey, slow-walked the approval of thalidomide back in 1960, and thereby became a heroine. The FDA has since become pretty infamous for its slow pace of approvals.
Let me put it this way, Althouse. If you or Meade came down with this coronavirus, would you tell your doctor not to treat you with HCQ + Z-packs + zinc because the FDA hasn’t approved it yet? Or would you tell him to go ahead and give whatever drugs he thinks are needed to cure you?
A search finds a number of articles that claim success of hydroxychloroquine in treating Wuhan Flu. One example.
FWIW, Lat had a lot of things thrown at him. According to him, hard to know what actually did the trick.
@walter, when Lat first recovered he was pretty specific that hydroxychloroquine deserved the credit.
C'mon man, the Dude mainlines Clorox. Who doesn't want a President who can do that?
So I guess AA hasn’t had polio or measles vaccination, or taken penicillin or its derivatives, or even aspirin? Or disputes the efficacy of quinine and its derivatives in preventing/treating malaria? I could go on.
Your 12:50 post trying to dodge the meaning of what you wrote in your original post is intellectually dishonest. Your commenters have damn good reading skills, and your post did not say what your 12:50 post says.
Or maybe you’re just an obtuse communicator at times. Could be the explanation.
Stupid Trump. And stupid Boris Johnson.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/19/uk-to-test-hydroxychloroqine-as-coronavirus-treatment
OrangeManBad.
ARM is too stupid to realize that the statism he is addicted to has a far greater body count than the Kung Flu will ever have.
the best way to be healthy is to leave your body alone to fight illness with its natural mechanisms
Can't do it. Where I go, it goes.
Skipper said...
What does Uncle Joe think of using rat poison for preventing blood clots and strokes? You know, Warfarin?
5/20/20, 3:00 PM
And, "Strychnine was popularly used as an athletic performance enhancer and recreational stimulant in the late 19th century and early 20th century, due to its convulsant effects. " (banned in sports)
Why does the idiotic Biden even think he should have an opinion about which medications the president takes?
Press sec got asked about it today, flipped her notes open and read off legit info about positive results. Almost as if she anticipated the question.
Also, asked , again, about mail in voting, she says"I already answered, maybe you weren't listening"
haha.
Then, refernces study during Carter admin proving rampant fraud.
Trump gets tested for Covid-19 every day and he also takes some dosage of the malaria drug, hydroxychloroquine but apparently he doesn't yet gargle with Chlorox.
Chris Cuomo, who contracted Covid-19, takes quinine, a less complex Malaria killer compound that his wife extracts from Cinchona ("fever tree") bark.
Odd that gadfly should mention the Cuomos — i.e.: media star Chris and his wife Cristina Cuomo (brother and sister-in-law to New York governor Cuomo) — because the only instance of bleach actually being employed as a defense against the present coronavirus pandemic (that the press has seen fit to report on anyway) is the practice — by liberals! — of regularly bathing in bleach. We see this specifically with regard to (coronavirus-positive!) Chris & Cristina Cuomo.
As Cristina Cuomo informs us in her blog, she (and presumably her husband: they're being treated together by their “physicians”) have been bathing in Clorox — which she assures us is “technically salt”! — twice a week to “combat the radiation and metals in my system and oxygenate it.”
They does this, Cristina says, on the advice of her doctor, who is a “Board Certified Naturopathic and Homeopathic Physician” — who, Cristina notes, shows up for their treatments in “her full hazmat outfit”! How comforting to know that Chris and Cristina Cuomo's treatment regimen has been prescribed and is being monitored by such a “physician.”
Wife asked a very interesting question. What if the resistance to the hydroxychloroquine drug cocktail is because it is effective against the novel coronavirus? As she pointed out to me, if an effective treatment exists then there would be no need for lockdowns, or even masks. Interesting point.
Rubbish, Ann. If you really believed that you would have "outwaited" your cataracts until vision was just a nice memory -- surgery, after all, might have made things worse, so why not rely on your body to heal itself ... or not. Western medicine, for good or ill, is interventional as you know perfectly well, or we'd all be resignedly waiting to get better or die from our first encounter with ill health or an imperfectly-functioning body. Nothing "conservative" or "liberal" about it -- we're wired to want to change ill fortune. As for "better to do nothing than make things worse by doing something", unless you KNOW, absolutely, that an intervention WILL make things worse, you know what doing nothing is, in medical terms? Neglect and malpractice. Primum non nocere, certainly, only a psychopath goes into medicine intending harm. But, Better than nothing is actually, in medical terms, a pretty lousy standard.
Big Mike: It's not all that implausible, sadly. The minute a pol starts sniveling about "protecting our most vulnerable", unless he's providing an opportunity to take HCG to every nursing home patient, every concerned person with comorbidities, (absolutely through a doctor and with all the cautions sufficient unto the evils of the day) I know he/she is lying, because it is in fact AT THIS TIME the only way to protect the vulnerable unless you propose to lock every last one of them up in solitary confinement until the end of days. Guess we could round up the obese, the diabetics, the old, etc. and put them all in the prisons we've been so assiduously emptying. Probably coming. Vaccine? Pfui -- we still don't have one for the common cold (another coronavirus) and likely never will. The truth is, in medicine you can mitigate, palliate, and -- only infrequently -- cure. The majority of medical troubles can't be cured: as Ann put it, you wait it out till it goes away, or you do. But HCG, though not a cure, seems to block the progression of the malady into something really awful and often not survivable -- it makes it possible for at-risk patients to be less lethally at risk. If turning the control freaks' once-in-a-lifetime Usable Crisis into something the level of a bad cold is what HCG could do, no wonder they're fighting it with everything they've got.
Cruel neutrality's predilection for the Dem candidate is beginning to show more.
Beyond that...Joe Biden lecturing on health? C'mon man!
If Obama was president
Would be national lock down
Imagine what press would say if moochelle took some?
Or aoc cooked some in a hot pot
They love folk medicine
But who and whom comes first
Back to the sweat lodge.
The study on which the media (and Biden) base their opinions was where hcq was given to patients near death from covid-19. It appears HCQ is not effective late in the disease.
HCQ works when given either as a prophylactic or in the early stage (viral) of the disease. There is a new anecdotal study from India where half the police took HCQ as a prophylactic and half refused. No deaths so far in group that took HCQ and 9 in those who refused. I think the numbers were over 4,000 in each group.
See Eastern Virginia Medical School (EVMS) Covid-19 protocol for more information. They recommend HCQ as a prophylactic and in viral stage of disease.
All Joe does is go around acting like a hopped up jackass, just what is his bag, anyway. I don’t have time for dumb shits.
her doctor, who is a “Board Certified Naturopathic and Homeopathic Physician”
Interesting. I assume they are using homeopathic doses of the quinine. Hydroxychloroquine is related to quinine but is safer and is the result of 100 years of medical progress.
No matter how stupid and/or insane you think liberals are, they work hard every day to make sure that you understand their problems are even worse than you imagined. I don't even feel sorry for them any more. This daily ranting and raving about all manner of idiotic madness has gotten completely out of hand.
Doctors all over the world are using this drug for Covid right now. Britain just loaded up on it. It's been around for many decades. But liberals keep saying brain dead stupid things about it. See Ann's silliness in this post.
Ann, do some research. Please. And reading/watching the liberal news media is NOT research.
I'm 69 with some of the underlying health conditions that put me at increased risk. If I contract Covid-19, you can bet I will ask my doc for droxy +zinc. Althouse, would you ask for it if you had the virus and were showing some of the serious symptoms or would you reject the use of it pending completion of scientific studies?
If I was Biden I would not tempt the Gods like that.
RichAndSceptical said,
"The study on which the media (and Biden) base their opinions was where hcq was given to patients near death from covid-19. It appears HCQ is not effective late in the disease."
It's not just that hydroxychloroquine was given to patients that were close to death, it's that the group this is being compared to, the people not taking hydroxychloroquine, were not nearly as ill.
In what world does this make sense?
The Veterans Administration study the media cites does not actually mean much of anything, since the two groups compared were in fact so different. Aside from the media's use of it, I wonder what the purpose of the study was. Yes, I get it was retrospective, but still even so, what possible information could have been discovered from it?
The situation is quite different for the recent New York University Langone Health hospital study where the two groups compared are virtually identical and where adding zinc to the mix halved the mortality rate (for those not in a cytokine storm).
That study is very good evidence that zinc plus hydroxychloroquine plus azithromycin given to even seriously ill people, but who have not yet reached the cytokine storm stage, will dramatically improve the odds of their surviving.
hydroxychloroquine = clorox in Biden's little mind...
POTUS always the troller. Watch all the fanatics “it’s between a women and her doctor” pile on.
hydroxychloroquine = clorox in Biden's little mind...
Hillary advises you to inject Bit Bleach.
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