May 6, 2020

At the Expressionist Diner...

IMG_5062 (1)

... let's have lunch.

198 comments:

rcocean said...

Its SciFi Madison.

Ken B said...

Expressionism is trendy perhaps. Saw a weak Brit TV series recently, What Remains. Several scenes in an attic, that looked like the famous shots from The Cabinet of Dr Caligari.

Nonapod said...

Looks like the atmosphere of a gas giant.

MadisonMan said...

I'm still waiting on my Stimulus Check, and I have direct deposit. OTOH, the wife's unemployment (for a place shuttered by COVID) is far far more than what she earned there, so it's all a wash.

BarrySanders20 said...

Nonapod said...
Looks like the atmosphere of a gas giant.

Definitely Uranus.

brylun said...

Wow!

I Have Misplaced My Pants said...

I haven’t paid any attention to stimulus checks as we don’t qualify but I have relatives who are still waiting on theirs and also on unemployment. Including one who bought her first house the week before the SHTF.

Howard said...

Looks like you used vasoline on the lens

tastid212 said...

Lucy in the sky with diamonds for breakfast...

Narr said...

Let me get my glasses . . . Oh, much better!

Narr
Too early for lunch

Sydney said...

I've heard from colleagues who work in ERs and from EMS providers in our community that all of their volumes are down but people are much sicker when they do come in or require EMS services. And they aren't sick with COVID-19. They've let their chest pain go on for one day instead of one hour or their appendicitis go for too long before seeking care. The EMS people say they are also responding to more in-home deaths, also not COVID-19 related. I'd like to see the statistics for the uptick in this sort of thing - delayed heart attack treatments, delayed acute abdominal pain, delayed asthma, etc. and rate of hospitalizations/ICU admissions vs. COVID-19 related hospitalizations/ICU admissions. Would be useful information.

Kay said...

Rap music is a music that owes a lot to technology. You couldn’t have rap before certain technological conditions were in place. It’s a music that has always embraced the new and embraced technology. There is often some clever misuse of technology driving its musical innovation. Some disregard for the rules. The writing of new rules. And these are very American traits. And rap music comes from America. It’s as American as apple pie.

Kay said...

Some people would say that rap is not real music. Well most Americans would disagree with that. I know that just because most Americans think something is true doesn’t mean that it is true (even though I also believe it is true), but that doesn’t matter in America. America is a nation that believes in democracy, so what the majority believes is important. And the majority of Americans think that rap is real music. Perhaps at this point, majority of the world?

Narr said...

Kay, most American pop music genres since the advent of electricity have been enmeshed with the use and misuse of available technologies. Rap is indeed as American as apple pie, or violence--and its roots go as deep too.

Viru$tim status: my wife and son are getting lots of money on top of state unemployment payment (which was already fairly generous), but she and I may have to register for the other--not that we need it!

Narr
May end up owing the IRS anyway . . .

Kay said...

Narr said...
Kay, most American pop music genres since the advent of electricity have been enmeshed with the use and misuse of available technologies.
5/6/20, 11:27 AM


This is absolutely true. But in rap it feels so much more a feature of the music. It’s a music that arose from a misuse of the turntable. A very clever and innovated misuse that has since spawned countless technological innovation as well as musical. But it’s not the only genre of American music to do so, that’s true. It’s a very American trait as I said above.

Josephbleau said...

Very arty photo. Primal energies of ancient and unknown nature rise unrestrained from the deep unforgiving waters of lake where the Indian laid down.

Bay Area Guy said...

Announcement from SCOTUS:

“Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg underwent non-surgical treatment for acute cholecystitis, a benign gallbladder condition, this afternoon at The Johns Hopkins Hospital in Baltimore, Maryland. Following oral arguments on Monday, the Justice underwent outpatient tests at Sibley Memorial Hospital in Washington, D.C., that confirmed she was suffering from a gallstone that had migrated to her cystic duct, blocking it and causing an infection.”

“The Justice is resting comfortably and plans to participate in the oral argument teleconference tomorrow morning remotely from the hospital. She expects to stay in the hospital for a day or two. Updates will be provided as they become available.”
Source:


Do you know how absolutely batshit crazy it is for an 87-year old person -- with extensive health problems (2 bouts of cancer) -- to continue to stay on the Bench?

My 84-year old Father-in-Law -- one of the best men I've even known -- jokingly says he can barely use the electric can-opener anymore.

Yes, RBG is a smart, successful, historical figure. No doubt. Many history books will be written about her. She already has one nice heroic movie. You think Justice David Souter will ever get a movie?

But, it is beyond delusional for her to cling to the power and prestige of the Court, given her age and poor health. It's worse than Biden seeking the Presidency at age 78. It's practically Weekend at Bernie's time.

The worst, of course, was a paralyzed President Woodrow Wilson, clinging to the Presidency for more than 1 year, in his bedroom, while his wife and staff issued all presidential directives.

Yes, I know RBG sees herself as a bastion to protect Roe v. Wade. Got it. And, Yes, it's crazy that she didn't retire at age 80, when Prez Obama could have replaced her with a 45-year old woman, equally passionate about the issue. Perhaps, RBG feels guilty over this obvious mistake. But, C'mon, Gal! Go home and rest -- and let the judicial chips fall where they may.

J. Farmer said...

@Kay:

This is absolutely true. But in rap it feels so much more a feature of the music. It’s a music that arose from a misuse of the turntable. A very clever and innovated misuse that has since spawned countless technological innovation as well as musical. But it’s not the only genre of American music to do so, that’s true. It’s a very American trait as I said above.

The African-American contribution to modern music is a massive cultural legacy. Rap is unusual in that it did not develop in the Deep South. If you consider that most African-American music is about being black in America, then rap is the first post-civil rights edition.

Lurker21 said...

Is that "the Blue Ray" or some kind of UFO?

Wa St Blogger said...

Another winner

Not Sure said...

A hint of Rothko in that.

Anne-I-Am said...

Another beautiful effort. I so enjoy these pictures; thank you.

@Sydney,

When I first posted here a number of weeks ago, I remarked on the coming deluge of non-Chinese virus-related morbidity and mortality. I was labeled a liar and a murderess, by the usual tedious commenters. Guess those of us who predicted this were far more on the money than those predicting bodies rotting in the streets from the Wuhan flu.

wild chicken said...

Do you know how absolutely batshit crazy it is for an 87-year old person"

We went through this before with Wm O. Douglas. It got pretty ridiculous but he was a big hero to the left.

So there's precedent.

JMW Turner said...

Your photographs have moved from Nineteenth century impressionistic towards mid Twentieth century abstract expressionism. Beautiful.

Nonapod said...

Do you know how absolutely batshit crazy it is for an 87-year old person -- with extensive health problems (2 bouts of cancer) -- to continue to stay on the Bench?

No doubt the essence of many Gelflings must be extracted to keep RBG vital.

Anne-I-Am said...

She is already embalmed.

AmPowerBlog said...

Wow! That's a fabulous photo!

Bushman of the Kohlrabi said...

Madman, have you tried https://www.irs.gov/coronavirus/get-my-payment to check the status of your payment?

Churchy LaFemme: said...

Pretty sure that rap music predates and is not dependent on fancy turntable work.

Curtis Blow forex.

J. Farmer said...

@Churchy LaFemme:

Pretty sure that rap music predates and is not dependent on fancy turntable work.

Curtis Blow forex.


They were contemporaneous. Rap was developed by DJs. Anthony Holloway, the house DJ at the Apollo Theater, was a huge popularizer of the technique, and Kool Herc innovated using the two-turntable disco setup to splice different musical tracks together. The dances set to the music are what became breakdancing. He became a huge rage in the late 1970's and resulted in people like Curtis Blow, Sugarhill Gang, Grandmaster Flash, and Afrika Bambaataa getting record deals.

MadisonMan said...

@Bushman, thanks. Apparently the IRS doesn't have my bank information (which is odd because they reached into the account in mid-April to withdraw money ;) )

I don't mind waiting. It's not like I have anything to spend money on at the moment.

FullMoon said...

Texas Governor And Attorney General Call For Immediate Release Of Jailed Salon Owner, Rip Judge For ‘Political Stunt’

Original Mike said...

"Some people would say that rap is not real music. Well most Americans would disagree with that."

I wouldn't be so sure about that.

Andrew said...

With rare exceptions, rap music is shit.

Spiros said...

With a real life mob boss imitating a President, it is not surprising that Professor Althouse is thinking about expressionism.

Night Owl said...

My favorite sunrise photo so far. It's beautiful. (Even though it does remind me of my sister's skin cancer surgery scar, when it was still bruised.)

Original Mike said...

Went to a landscaping place today to buy some wallstone for a small wall I'm building in the garden. Selection was way down from normal. The planet is running out of rock.

I Callahan said...

With a real life mob boss imitating a President, it is not surprising that Professor Althouse is thinking about expressionism.

Obama left office in January of 2017, in case you hadn't heard.

JohnAnnArbor said...

Great picture.

BlackjohnX said...

Rap...just crap without the C

Kay said...

J. Farmer said...
@Kay:

This is absolutely true. But in rap it feels so much more a feature of the music. It’s a music that arose from a misuse of the turntable. A very clever and innovated misuse that has since spawned countless technological innovation as well as musical. But it’s not the only genre of American music to do so, that’s true. It’s a very American trait as I said above.

The African-American contribution to modern music is a massive cultural legacy. Rap is unusual in that it did not develop in the Deep South. If you consider that most African-American music is about being black in America, then rap is the first post-civil rights edition.
5/6/20, 12:01 PM


That is an interesting observation about the south. Of course rap eventually did develop in the south, and has had a very pervasive influence on southern culture in general. Today, a lot of the hottest rappers come from the south. It’s also interesting how much influence rap music has had on country music, even. It’s astonishing.

Kay said...

I’m also thinking about the relationship between media and rap music, and trying to think of another music where such a relationship exists. The extent to which rap utilizes media seems kind of unprecedented in music. I mean everything from the lyrics to the music is informed by countless forms of media, constantly referenced, constantly appropriated, constantly taken and misutilized to create something new.

Andrew said...

It's not Expressionism without a blue horse.

n.n said...

In the old days people... persons, typically the geriatrics, would rap around the fire. While middle-aged people... persons would roast chestnuts, and young people would toast marshmallows. Then the twilight haze would lift, and the dawn of a new day.

Browndog said...

Andrew said...

With rare exceptions, rap music is shit.


With rare exception, rap isn't music.

J. Farmer said...

@Kay:

That is an interesting observation about the south. Of course rap eventually did develop in the south, and has had a very pervasive influence on southern culture in general. Today, a lot of the hottest rappers come from the south. It’s also interesting how much influence rap music has had on country music, even. It’s astonishing.

What I meant was that it did not originate in the south. It was primarily developed in New York City and then Los Angeles. Hence, the so called east coast/west coast rivalry. A distinctive southern version emerged in the mid-90's around Atlanta and Memphis and was referred to as the "dirty south." It was more soul-inspired and eccentric. Outkast was the first major group to put the region on the map. When they won the Best New Artist at the Source Awards, the crowd erupted in boos and hisses. By the end of the decade, the southern style was becoming dominant, and Atlanta was becoming the epicenter of hip-hop music production.

Kay said...

@J. Farmer

No, I understood what you meant. I was just adding to it my thoughts on rap that developed much later on in the south.

J. Farmer said...

With rare exceptions, rap music is shit.

Rap...just crap without the C

With rare exception, rap isn't music.

These are such tired, lame opinions. These were pretty much the same criticisms people were making as rock music was supplanting the big band era.

Ralph L said...

I got my check today. It should cover my 2019 taxes.

Original Mike said...

"These are such tired, lame opinions. These were pretty much the same criticisms people were making as rock music was supplanting the big band era."

It's not music. It's poetry.

FullMoon said...

Never cared much for H. Rap Brown or Hoagie Carmichael. Too extreme, your opinion may vary.

narciso said...

the h rap brown who ended up shot in a mosque in Detroit in 2009, that fellow,

FullMoon said...

But, millions and millions saved..


Ontario: Dozens Dead After Lockdown Measures Delayed Their Heart Surgeries; Health Official: ‘Certainly Was Not Intended.’

Unknown said...

"These are such tired, lame opinions."

The science is settled.

FullMoon said...

H. Rap and Hoagie on par with Streisand and Joy Whoopie. Too radical for me.

Unknown said...

Health official: "Certainly was not intended."

I think that's called gross negligence.

Hey Skipper said...

@ J Farmer: These are such tired, lame opinions. These were pretty much the same criticisms people were making as rock music was supplanting the big band era.

My problem with rap is the same as for country and techno: the respective formulas are so tightly bound that all the songs end up sounding virtually identical.

(Well, that and I loathe the way rap and techno sound. Country, too, after about 15 mins of it when my wife is driving. But all that is subjective.)

Ray - SoCal said...

DeVos releasing the title lX now with Biden supporters demanding due process I’m sure is a coincidence...

https://reason.com/2020/05/06/betsy-devos-title-ix-due-process-college-sexual-misconduct/

Iman said...

The new stuff they call "country", ain't even close to country.

Jon Ericson said...

Brings a tear to my eye.

Slide on a pimp game with my pinky ring
Lotta gang, lotta bitches, and a icy chain
Why you claim that you rich? That's a false claim
I be straight to the whip, no baggage claim
Whole lotta styles, can't even pronounce the name
You ain't got no style, see you on my Instagram
I be rockin' it like it's fresh out the pan
Only when I'm takin' pics, I'm the middleman
Walk, talk it like a boss, I just lift the hand
Three million cash, call me Rain Man
Money like a shower, that's my rain dance
And we all in black, like it's Gangland
Say the wrong word, you be hangman
Watch me stick to your bitch like a spray tan
Aw, Mr. 'What Kind Of Car He In?'
In the city love my name, nigga, I ain't gotta say it

Kevin said...

The new stuff they call "country", ain't even close to country.

“That ain't no Hank Williams song!"

Left Bank of the Charles said...

Beautiful!

Jon Ericson said...

What it about.

Narr said...

I wish I could claim credit, but someone coined the phrase "bro-country hip-pop" for the dominant white boy genre now.

Narr
Turn down that wigger music!

Mark said...

Just in time for desert, here comes Martha.

BUMBLE BEE said...

Fauci fry???? https://banned.video/watch?id=5eb317df322e03001635430a

gilbar said...

Iowa Opening up, EVEN FURTHER
Iowans Cheer: "Glad we don't live in Communist Wisconsin!!!"

Birkel said...

Althouse:
Are you still washing your shoes?

Mark said...

So. Justice Ginsburg asked no questions in today's oral argument.

J. Farmer said...

@Hey Skipper:

My problem with rap is the same as for country and techno: the respective formulas are so tightly bound that all the songs end up sounding virtually identical.

(Well, that and I loathe the way rap and techno sound. Country, too, after about 15 mins of it when my wife is driving. But all that is subjective.)


Formulaic is always a risk in genre work. I have no objection to matters of taste. But I find knee-jerk reactions or sweeping dismissals of an entire style pretty ignorant. It has a "Get off my lawn!" quality to it, though I can at least respect its curmudgeonly character. The middlebrow Ben Shapiro bullshit is vastly more annoying.

"Fact: rap isn't music. And if you think it is, you're stupid. More in my defense: I’m a classical musician." Oh, well, I guess that settles it then. Luckily, Ben deigned to explain his grand declaration. You see, music requires medley, harmony, and rhythm, and since rap has neither medley nor harmony, it isn't music. He also assured us this was very legitimate because his "music theorist father who went to music school" told him so. So this isn't, like, his opinion man. He's literally destroying rap with FACTS and LOGIC. Except he's definition of music is absurd, and his understanding of rap is nonexistent.

Mark said...

She made a lot of rambling speeches in the style of Demented Joe -- maybe she thought today was the day when they read their opinions -- but no questions.

Mark said...

CJ Roberts admitted in the oral argument that he didn't understand the issues.

This is the third time (at least) that this matter of the contraceptive mandate has been before the Court. And he still doesn't get it, by his own admission.

stevew said...

Sheesh, do I have to say this again? There is no objectively "right" music. There is what you like and appreciate, and everything else. With that in mind, I will state that I either enjoy a piece of music, or I do not. Genres are nothing to me other than tedious manufactured categories that people use to exclude rather than include. Anti-art, if you will.

daskol said...

Chef and writer Gabrielle Hamilton, of the lovely little E Village restaurant Prune, has a thoughtful piece in NYT. She's a good writer as well as cook, and her autobiography Blood, Bones and Butteris a fun read.

Mark said...

To the extent that there is mathematics in music -- and there is -- there is absolutely an objective aspect to musical aesthetics, that is, to what is good and what is not good, to what qualifies as music and what is just noise.

gilbar said...

I just don't know about Rap music; all those songs about drugs?
I prefer Country, with its time honored themes: of bootleg whiskey, smokin' weed, doin' pills

Also, Rap has ALL THAT Violence in it!
What's Wrong with sticking to Good Wholesome Country Music? With songs about pleasant subjects like:
Killing Your husband, because he doesn't love you as much as he should
Throwing a bottle of Kerosene onto your ex's bed, while him and his new gal are sleeping?
Killing a Man in Reno; Just to Watch Him Die

Those are the ones for me!


The Cracker Emcee Refulgent said...

“Pretty sure that rap music predates and is not dependent on fancy turntable work.”

Don’t forget the influence of Jamaican DJs. They were doing this over dub versions well before rap went semi-popular.

Ingachuck'stoothlessARM said...

turn the pic vertical !

FullMoon said...

I have no objection to matters of taste. But I find knee-jerk reactions or sweeping dismissals of an entire style pretty ignorant.

Agree. Just give me some of that old time rock and roll while I waltz across Texas because the time's they are are a' changin',But in my younger days, wish I knew then what I know now..

stevew said...

Good point. I think many would agree on the noise vs music assessment. My objection is to the assertion that this or that is or isn't music, based solely on whether it is liked or appreciated, and to the categorical assignment of something the listener doesn't like as "noise".

Mark said...

So here's a question for you --

What's up with these meat-packing plant outbreaks?

How is it that so many of them, precisely, have become infected? It seems very disparate to the rest of society. One might even conclude that it was intentional.

FullMoon said...

I prefer Country, with its time honored themes: of bootleg whiskey, smokin' weed, doin' pills

...and mamma, and prison, and trains..

Jon Ericson said...

Pic akimbo.

Mark said...

The thing about rap is that, actually, often it does not attempt to be music and is not intended to be music.

It is intended to be a social statement.

It is a mistake to hear it through the lens of privilege and/or whiteness.

gilbar said...

...and mamma, and prison, and trains..
YES! and gettin' drunk!


seriously...
Let's play a fun game!
let's gather up everyone's complaints, about Rap (or, New Country)
and THEN!
Let's compare them, to what your Parents said; about the stuff you listened to, as a teen

FUN FUN FUN!

BUMBLE BEE said...

Ray Stevens... Godfather of RAP?

J. Farmer said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Birkel said...

The more recent top charting rap is garbage. Most of it is repetitive drivel without a story to tell. Perhaps it is aspirational, as in young people should want to have their own bitches and hoes in great numbers. But it's not storytelling, which most good music is.

Older rap told a story than one could see in the mind's eye.

And anybody who discusses older rap without mentioning Erik B and Rakim loses some respect.

J. Farmer said...

The new stuff they call "country", ain't even close to country.

As my father would say, "new country's gay." Sam Hunt and "Body Like a Back Road" would probably be Exhibit A in this charge. There's always been a little too much blue jeans, cold beer, and pickup trucks in country lyrics, but the production has made it pretty difficult to identify what exactly makes something "country music."

I grew up on outlaw country and contemporary country radio. Garth Brooks, Trisha Yearwood, Reba, George Strait, Alan Jackson, Keith Whitley, etc.

chickelit said...

Mark said...So here's a question for you --

What's up with these meat-packing plant outbreaks?

How is it that so many of them, precisely, have become infected? It seems very disparate to the rest of society. One might even conclude that it was intentional.


You haven't spent much time on a campus lately, have you? Attacking meat-packing plants is a way of getting at meat-eaters in general. Go vegan! Covid took down the big CO2 polluters as well. Now if there were only a way to target white Christian, Trump-supporters.

FullMoon said...

You got friends in low places?

gilbar said...

shoot! Fullmoon! we Both forgot Trucks! can't forget Trucks

What does it say, about Country-Western Music; that the PERFECT COUNTRY And WESTERN Song
was written In Chicago, by a Jewish guy; that HATED country music

FullMoon said...

You haven't spent much time on a campus lately, have you? Attacking meat-packing plants is a way of getting at meat-eaters in general. Go vegan!

E-coli !

FullMoon said...

shoot! Fullmoon! we Both forgot Trucks! can't forget Trucks

It's Biden and this G damn intercourse!

FullMoon said...

..oops, wrong movie

J. Farmer said...

@Mark:

The thing about rap is that, actually, often it does not attempt to be music and is not intended to be music.

It is intended to be a social statement.


It might've been somewhat accurate to make that claim about rap in the late 80's and early 90's, but it's otherwise never been true. Rap's actually followed a pretty similar trajectory to rock music in terms of stylistic evolution.

FullMoon said...

What does it say, about Country-Western Music; that the PERFECT COUNTRY And WESTERN Song
was written In Chicago, by a Jewish guy;


Heck,even King of the Cowboys Roy Rogers was Jewish, Leonard Franklin Slye.

Andrew said...

"What's up with these meat-packing plant outbreaks?"

The mad cows are getting their revenge.

Andrew said...

"What's up with these meat-packing plant outbreaks?"

The mad cows are getting their revenge.

Andrew said...

"What's up with these meat-packing plant outbreaks?"

The mad cows are getting their revenge.

Jon Ericson said...

Country rap.

J. Farmer said...

@Birkel:

And anybody who discusses older rap without mentioning Erik B and Rakim loses some respect.

The quintessential DJ/MC duo. Paid in Full is a great album. Rakim's rapping style, and the pair's production techniques were massive influences and basically changed the whole genre, effectively putting an end to the "old school" rappers.

J. Farmer said...

"What's up with these meat-packing plant outbreaks?"

Almost entirely migrant labor and unsanitary working conditions.

Rick.T. said...

'What does it say, about Country-Western Music; that the PERFECT COUNTRY And WESTERN Song
was written In Chicago, by a Jewish guy...'

And the perfect train song and, if you are a Cubs fans the perfect baseball song. Gone too soon.

Anne-I-Am said...

I wonder if a lot of the meat-packing employees are immigrants living together in large numbers and close quarters.

At least one Smithfield plant got infected by a visitor from China (the company is owned by the Chinese).

I suspect that many clusters of infections come not from people's jobs, but from what they do in their free time. I have seen here in Oaktown that many low-income people (mostly Black) are ignoring the social distancing stuff. If a grocery store worker gets sick, is it necessarily from someone in the grocery store?

Howard said...

Music genres are marketing. The only thing the executives are trying to exclude is music that won't sell.

Howard said...

There are absolutely no rules to art just tools and the artist decides which tools they want to use.

Jon Ericson said...

I Love Country Music.

J. Farmer said...

@Howard:

There are absolutely no rules to art just tools and the artist decides which tools they want to use.

That's true, but people still often work within a specific tradition or using certain conventions. Constrictions can often foster creativity.

Mark said...

And now . . .

The team meets Mr. A to Z. And Spock finds love. Meanwhile, McCoy is an ass.

narciso said...

Interesting

https://social.quodverum.com/@Debradelai

Narr said...

Let me be crystal clear-- I don't dislike or dismiss rap, country, or any other genre per se. If anything, I have more eclectic musical tastes than 90% of the people I know; it's not my fault I haven't listened to more rap or country because I haven't yet gotten through the previous 3 or 4 centuries of the Western canon.

I'm starting to warm up to Shostakovich.

Narr
Pretend his "jazz" doesn't exist

Mark said...

So Comcast is now offering all this new NBC content for free on their Peacock streaming app.

The problem is that nearly all of the NBC shows they offer haven't aged well -- and they were crap when they aired.

Mark said...

Folks --

We already had a MUCH more interesting music discussion not too long ago when we were talking about French chanteuses.

There is a whole nother world of music out there.

Mark said...

I wonder if a lot of the meat-packing employees are immigrants living together in large numbers and close quarters.

Sure, it can spread easily that way.

But how did it get in the plants in the first place?

narciso said...


Maybe this way

https://apelbaum.wordpress.com

J. Farmer said...

@Narr:

it's not my fault I haven't listened to more rap or country because I haven't yet gotten through the previous 3 or 4 centuries of the Western canon.

Ha. When Brian Helgeland did his riff on Chaucer with A Knight's Tale, the film was criticized for prominently featuring anachronistic rock songs on the soundtrack. Helgeland had to point out that a traditional orchestral score would not have solved the problem of anachronism.

Mark said...

You deserve what you get, narciso, if you knowingly buy Chinese when there are other options.

Mark said...

In the Q&A section of many products on Amazon, it is instructive to find so many people asking, "Is it made in China?"

Howard said...

Genres and constrictions are some of the tools of the trade. That's why I like Picasso so much he crossed many boundaries but did solid work within the different styles and media.

Mark said...

Ellen Tigh was a rat.

So she gets the Adriana treatment.

Sebastian said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Howard said...

J Farmer: if anything, meatpacking plants are too sanitary. Between the bleach the chlorine dioxide peracetic acid the hydrogen peroxide and quaternary ammonium compounds, they keep those places Sano'd. Almost everything is made out of stainless. U.S. processes more than 50 billion pounds of meat per year and 99.99% of it is completely safe.

what the workers are contaminated with is an extremely high level of noise which causes them to have to face each other and yell in order to communicate.

Mark said...

And then there's this --

>Illinois governor says churches may not reopen for a year or more because of coronavirus

It could be more than a year before churches are allowed to resume their in-person gatherings, according to Democratic Illinois Gov. J.B. Pritzker.

Pritzker announced a five-phase plan to reopen Illinois that gives guidance to schools, businesses, churches, and other religious centers about when they will be allowed to reopen. In phase three, gatherings of up to 10 people will be allowed. In phase four, gatherings of up to 50 people will be allowed. Gatherings of more than 50 people will not be allowed until phase five.

During a press conference on Wednesday, Pritzker confirmed that churches will be held to the same standards and not be allowed to hold in-person services of more than 50 people until phase five, even if it takes more than a year to get to that position. . . . Face masks will be recommended in public until phase five is reached. Schools, restaurants, and bars will not reopen until phase four.

Phase five cannot begin until a vaccine is widely available or a highly effective therapeutic drug is released. Dr. Anthony Fauci, the director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, has said a vaccine is 12 to 18 months away from being available to the public.

Howard said...

In other words, Anne I am observes that low income mostly black people in Oakland are every bit as carelessly flaunting the suggested behavior in the pandemic as she is. When in Rome I suppose

Jon Ericson said...

https://www.fbi.gov/about/faqs

Q: Can I obtain detailed information about a current FBI investigation that I see in the news?
A: No. Such information is protected from public disclosure, in accordance with current law and Department of Justice and FBI policy. This policy preserves the integrity of the investigation and the privacy of individuals involved in the investigation prior to any public charging for violations of the law. It also serves to protect the rights of people not yet charged with a crime.

narciso said...

Thats their standup act

J. Farmer said...

@Howard:

J Farmer: if anything, meatpacking plants are too sanitary.

According to the standards or according to the practices? I'll grant that total meat recalls are a small fraction of the total amount produced, but that's only part of the problem. And the HACCP system has some inherent flaws. Meatpacking is also incredibly hazardous for the workers.

When a profession starts becoming almost totally dominated by legal and illegal immigrant labor, be suspicious. Low wages and crappy working conditions are likely right around the corner. If they had to rely on American workers, they'd be forced to increase pay and improve conditions.

Mark said...

When a profession starts becoming almost totally dominated by labor unions, be suspicious.

Sebastian said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Sebastian said...

Insanity epidemic hitting hard in Europe:

"Shutdowns to fight the pandemic have plunged the European Union into its worst economic slump since it was founded after World War II."

Lots of marginal businesses over there. Temporary dip, as we've been told by expert economists right here on this blog.

Gospace said...

The first rap of any kind I ever heard was from Debbie Harry in the group Blondie. And is actually the only rap I've heard all the way through since I immediately tune to something else, anything else, if rap, or anything that sounds like, starts playing

Form what I've read of rap lyrics, a person of pallor could be arrested for "hate crimes" for reciting the words of most rap music while standing on a street corner.

And rap isn't even original, just discordant. Speaking without regard for the music was first done with Gregorian Chants, albeit at a slower pace.

BUMBLE BEE said...

Anne-I-Am ... Nathans hot dogs owned by CCP! Damn it! Great on my grill no more.

J. Farmer said...

@Mark:

When a profession starts becoming almost totally dominated by labor unions, be suspicious.

An alternative to unions would be more stringent labor regulation and enforcement and a tight labor market that would allow workers to bid wages up. Deal?

The Cracker Emcee Refulgent said...

“Lots of marginal businesses over there. Temporary dip, as we've been told by expert economists right here on this blog.”

We used to have to bomb their infrastructure, industry, and shipping, to shit to get an economic leg-up. These days, they do it voluntarily.

J. Farmer said...

@Gospace:

The first rap of any kind I ever heard was from Debbie Harry in the group Blondie. And is actually the only rap I've heard all the way through since I immediately tune to something else, anything else, if rap, or anything that sounds like, starts playing

Granted, Debbie Harry's flow leaves a lot to be desired. Blondie was in the middle of the downtown Manhattan art scene and were friendly with Fab Five Freddie, who introduced them to rap performances in the Bronx.

Howard said...

Jay farmer:. I'm more experienced with the practices than the standards. If anything workers tend to overuse cleaning products. That ends up causing problems with wastewater treatment systems that rely on active biology to reduce other types of pollutants. It's also a problem when waste water from these plants is sent to municipal wastewater treatment plants and it kills there bacteria and can f****** the treatment of sewage from an entire town or region.

Howard said...

J Farmer said: When a profession starts becoming almost totally dominated by legal and illegal immigrant labor, be suspicious. Low wages and crappy working conditions are likely right around the corner. If they had to rely on American workers, they'd be forced to increase pay and improve conditions.

A basic commodity industry it's not a profession. In basic commodities fractions of pennies makes all the difference. Everybody makes the same thing and is of the same quality. It has nothing to do with who works at the plant wages would be low anyway otherwise we would have to start importing our meat from other countries.

In my humble opinion the real trade deficit problem is caused by our allowing other countries to pollute environment and hurt workers and pay homeopathic wages. It is nearly impossible for a liberal democracy to compete with a totalitarian capitalist machine unless we hold them to the same standards as free countries. This is the whole reason the billionaires bought and paid for the globalist treaties.

Politicians do a great job of dividing the worker bees into various factions (deplorables, unions, immigrants, etc) that end up with battling it out with each other spinning their wheels while the davos crowd keeps increasing their vig

Ralph L said...

But how did it get in the plants in the first place?

It was planted.

narciso said...

Indeed


https://mobile.twitter.com/alimhaider/status/1258193516364267521

narciso said...

A very old story



https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/arts-letters/articles/luttwak-kyle-harper-fate-of-rome

J. Farmer said...

@Howard:

A basic commodity industry it's not a profession. In basic commodities fractions of pennies makes all the difference. Everybody makes the same thing and is of the same quality. It has nothing to do with who works at the plant wages would be low anyway otherwise we would have to start importing our meat from other countries.

This is a variation of the "crops rotting in the fields argument." There's a reason employers like low-skilled immigrant labor. They're willing to do more difficult work for less money than the native population. Cut off from this supply, they would need to offer better wages and working conditions to attract workers.

Yes, this would result in higher prices at the grocery store. That's the price of supporting your nation. It was always acknowledged that while globalization would benefits business and consumers, it would hurt workers. But those workers were going to be "retrained" and would go into other professions. Except, a lot of them dropped out of the labor force and went on SSI and others got shitty jobs with low pay and no benefits.

The neoliberal agenda has been brutalizing the working-class for decades. Every time they vote for someone who says they're going to do something about it, they get told, "Ehh, maybe next time."

Theranter said...

Mark, it's happening at seafood processing plants too.

https://www.oregonlive.com/business/2020/05/astoria-seafood-plants-close-after-13-workers-test-positive-for-coronavirus.html

Howard said...


https://www.nbcboston.com/news/coronavirus/58-new-coronavirus-cases-at-worcester-walmart-bringing-total-to-81/2117753/%3famp

https://www.wcvb.com/amp/article/worcester-walmart-reopens-after-81-people-test-positive/32376893

J. Farmer said...

@narciso:

A very old story

https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/arts-letters/articles/luttwak-kyle-harper-fate-of-rome


It's always funny how whatever the issue du jour is, someone will get around to explaining how it explains the fall of Rome. I think my personal favorite was Peter Brown's "late antiquity" conceptualization. Rome never fell at all. It merely experienced cultural and political evolution. Those barbarian invaders were more like immigrants. I think the "late antiquity" model has some merit, but historians seem to have largely abandoned the "transformation" explanation.

Inga said...

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/05/06/coronavirus-equipment-trump-rebukes-nurse-in-white-house-exchange.html

“President Donald Trump contradicted a nurse who said that access to sufficient supplies of personal protective equipment during the coronavirus pandemic “has been sporadic.”

Trump shot back, “Sporadic for you, but not sporadic for a lot of other people.”

The exchange underscored how sensitive Trump has been to suggestions that the United States has lagged in preparedness for the coronavirus outbreak under his watch.”

This... on Nurses Day

Trump sure does show his respect for working people in strange ways. Between how he treats nurses and how he forces meat packing plant workers into unsafe work conditions, anyone who says he’s for the working man is full of it.

iowan2 said...

The packing plant outbreaks are immigrant based. The reason is not working in close proximity at the plant although that's not helping. Multiple immigrant families live together, or a house is full of men that work the plant all week, Those men all in one house? They are working all shifts, so they are even sharing beds. Then commute back to families on the weekend. The plants themselves are clean, and the workers already wear a lot of PPE. Long sleeves, aprons, gloves, hair covered. The only thing missing was a mask.

Howard,
I don't know of any plants that push water to municipal water treatment facilities, they treat their waste water on site, and return clean water to a river.

narciso said...

Luttwak wrote a book about byzantine foreign policy he knows what he speaks of, tpolitical authority moved east toward constaninople to the east the Church filled the power vacuum,

William said...

People around here sure do know a lot about the working conditions in meat packing plants. I would have thought that to be an esoteric field of knowledge....I wonder what happened to Norma Rae after her plant closed down.

Inga said...

“In Wisconsin, the health risk for workers at these plants would not have been acknowledged had some of those workers not dared to come forth and inform the public. The packing companies have simply failed to protect the safety of their most important asset by refusing to provide necessary personal protective equipment, withholding information from workers about the spread of illness, not requiring temperature checks or providing testing for all employees, and by ignoring social distancing measures such as slowing line speeds or reducing production. Plants have reportedly forced employees to continue working even when they are sick and failed to provide sick pay when workers fall ill or self-quarantine after exposure. Instead they have opted to temporarily pay higher wages and a bonus for those who consistently report to work despite the risk to their lives and safety.

Minority communities are disproportionately harmed by the executive order to keep meatpacking plants open. Nearly 30% of meatpacking workers are immigrants, and two-thirds are Latino (35%), black (20%) or Asian (8%). They are working in both a high-risk and intense laborious occupation, in jobs that most white Americans would never take. And now they are being forced to go to work every day with no meaningful protection against a dangerous and deadly virus.”

Michael Slattery is a diversified grain farmer from Maribel. He is a member of Wisconsin Farmers Union.”

https://madison.com/ct/opinion/column/michael-slattery-packing-plant-workers-lives-more-important-than-meeting-protein-demand/article_8d539187-88cd-55f2-b14a-b49ca882cd00.html

William said...

I haven't given up Chernow's bio of Grant, but I've switched off to a bio of Madame de Stael. Her life certainly offers a change of pace from Grant's. She had lots of lovers. Grant's bio would have been so much more interesting if he had cultivated adultery rather than liquor as a vice....I don't think the wastrels of our era lose their money gambling like they did in the 18th century. I think many of the vices then were based more on boredom than on man's fallen nature.

Mark said...

Gul Dukat always had a neck like a giraffe.

Mark said...

it's happening at seafood processing plants too

That's not suspicious at all.

Roughcoat said...

Luttwak was wrong on every prediction he made concerning Desert Storm. Do you remember him testifying before Congress prior to the president getting approval to conduct military operations against Iraq? Spoke for a long time. He was very arrogant and self-assured. He advocated against operations against Iraq, saying that we would suffer tens of thousands of casualties. He predicted catastrophe and then he explained in exhaustive detail, with hauteur and contempt for those who disagreed with him, how and why we would meet catastrophe. He has been wrong with other predictions too. Someone wrote an article a while back about this, about how it was a mystery why he should be a respected public intellectual when he was so often wrong. The military people I worked with couldn't stand him and I understand why. I feel as they do about him.

narciso said...

We see this policy doesnt protect seniors doesnt protect children nor the immune compromised, it is leaching the life blood of thiz economy away, destroying two generations of livelihoods, for what goal.

Roughcoat said...

Rome did fall. Western Civilization was stomped into the mud. A Dark Age did indeed ensue. Blame those goddamn Germans. They won that one.

J. Farmer said...

@narciso:

Luttwak wrote a book about byzantine foreign policy he knows what he speaks of, tpolitical authority moved east toward constaninople to the east the Church filled the power vacuum,

Yes, Rome had to devote quite a few resources trying to stabilize its border with the Sassanid Empire. And the Germanic tribes had become much more formidable than they had been in the past. Had the Empire faced similar threats at any earlier point in its history, it would have fallen.

Narr said...

I largely agree with Howard@820, and Farmer's observations.

And I agree with Farmer about anachronistic movie music--even the best users of the classical (broadly) canon abuse it. I don't know much about Helgeland or A Knight's Tale but would probably dislike it on other grounds!

Narr
Why is everything so LOUD?

Mark said...

The Federation ships begin the assault to retake DS-9.

And they are so tightly packed that a single hand grenade could destroy them all by cascading effect.

J. Farmer said...

Blame those goddamn Germans. They won that one.

Could you blame them? If your options are face the Hun or cross the Danube and Rhine Rivers into Roman territory, that's a no brainer.

Narr said...

Oh no, The Effing Fall of Rome!

I'll be back after a few deep breaths and a long pee.

Narr
Hold my place

Roughcoat said...

Had the Empire faced similar threats at any earlier point in its history, it would have fallen.

Cliff, it faced existential threats intermittently throughout its history. It didn't fall. In true Nietzschean fashion it kept growing stronger.

Until it didn't.

narciso said...

Its alway 476 ad somewhere now the continuity between the kings republic ane empire are almosr the same as the byzantine reign.

Mark said...

Is THIS the turning point when the Dominion lost DS-9 and lost any hope of invading and conquering the Alpha Quadrant? When the Female Changeling told Odo that Kira had been arrested and was to be executed?

Roughcoat said...

that's a no brainer.

"It is well-known ..."

Original Mike said...

"In the Q&A section of many products on Amazon, it is instructive to find so many people asking, "Is it made in China?""

Don't trust China. China is asshole.

narciso said...

Thats around the time they decided to cancencel the series no.

Its often a question of dates at the outset the french conquered algeria after 17 years, a century later they didnt have the patience in eight, well perhaps had they gotten rid of degaulle the previous interval in indochine proved illustrative.

J. Farmer said...

"It is well-known...”

Haha. We’re permitted a rhetorical flourish from time to time ;)

Inga said...

Not just affecting the old and obese.

https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/15-nyc-children-sickened-with-rare-covid-related-illness-here-are-the-warning-signs/2404162/?fbclid=IwAR15JS6TePU-_Z_TzRO1DrRacvYTUe2t16YwswXPKLCK5dEB7HkUvoeztrY

“64 NY Children Sickened With Rare COVID-Related Illness, State Finds; Here Are the Warning Signs”

“The state issued an advisory on the syndrome and its potential association with COVID-19 in children Wednesday afternoon. It was sent to all healthcare facilities, clinical labs and local health departments in the state to inform providers of the condition as well as to provide testing and reporting guidance. Any suspected cases of pediatric multi-system inflammatory syndrome in people under the age of 21 must be reported to the State Department of Health.”


Roughcoat said...

"Are vee not der supermen, Aryan pure supermen?
Ja vee are der supermen, super duper supermen!
Is zis Nazi land so good?
Would you leave it if you could?
Ja zis Nazi land is good?
Vee would leave it if we could!

Roughcoat said...

Sung by the German tribes as they crossed Rhine ...

Howard said...

Iowan2: smaller plants and plants located in areas where there is not enough acreage for bio lagoons are plumbed into municipal sewers. Also it's increasingly harder to obtain and maintain npdes permits in some areas so the plants discharged to the municipal sewer. In California plants sometimes employ land application rather than discharge to surface water.

No matter what method the plant uses, over generous use of disinfectants is a pretty common problem. No one wants to get blamed for e-coli or salmonella so the workers employ their own precautionary principle

Mark said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Mark said...

Time to purify the new room.

chickelit said...

Inga wrote:.Trump sure does show his respect for working people in strange ways. Between how he treats nurses and how he forces meat packing plant workers into unsafe work conditions, anyone who says he’s for the working man is full of it.

I saw that video too. Did he actually use a cattle prod to force that Hispanic worker back into line? Absolute game-changer for me. Go Joe!

Roughcoat said...

Vare, legiones redde! *sob*

J. Farmer said...

@roughcoat:

Cliff, it faced existential threats intermittently throughout its history. It didn't fall. In true Nietzschean fashion it kept growing stronger.

Until it didn't.


That isn't the point. It's not a matter of facing "existential threats intermittently throughout its history." In no time in its history was it faced with a comparable threat. That is, at no time in Rome's history would it likely have had the power to withstand the threats it faced in the 4th and 5th centuries.

Why is it assumed that the cause must be a self-inflicted one? Is it not possible that Rome was simply bested by a superior, or at least as capable, adversary? But then again, the fall of Rome doesn't really interest people merely as an historical question. We're part of Western Civilization, so we'll always be asking big questions about why things happened in Rome.

Jon Ericson said...

Incense or Ultraviolet?

walter said...

Good grief, Inga:
"Any suspected cases of pediatric multi-system inflammatory syndrome in people under the age of 21 must be reported to the State Department of Health.

As the advisory stated, "Though most children who get COVID-19 experience only mild symptoms, in the United Kingdom, a possible link has also been reported between pediatric COVID-19 and serious inflammatory disease. The inflammatory syndrome has features which overlap with Kawasaki disease and toxic shock syndrome and may occur days to weeks after acute COVID-19 illness. It can include persistent fever, abdominal symptoms, rash, and even cardiovascular symptoms requiring intensive care. Early recognition by pediatricians and referral to a specialist including to critical care is essential."

Howard said...

That's right Inga. Metabolic syndrome can affect children and the normal weighted folks alike. It's basically controlled by what you feed your liver.

Now is a good time to get off of sugar and alcohol. Chronic stress is another big risk factor. Given that the primary pathological mechanism of both metabolic syndrome and covid-19 is increased oxidative stress, it's logical to have destructive synergy when you have both diseases. People start going downhill fast when antioxidant demand is higher than the supply.

Roughcoat said...

That isn't the point. It's not a matter of facing "existential threats intermittently throughout its history." In no time in its history was it faced with a comparable threat. That is, at no time in Rome's history would it likely have had the power to withstand the threats it faced in the 4th and 5th centuries.

Pure gibberish. You can do better than that.

I gotta go. Long drive home. Later, dude.

Howard said...

Ironically the chemicals produced by oxidative stress include superoxide hydrogen peroxide and hydroxyl radical. These are all industrial disinfectants.

walter said...

Before arriving at a suspicion of a "possible" covid related childhood syndrome with overlapping symptoms with other conditions, maybe a test is in order.

Inga said...

What’s wrong Walter? That’s not bad enough for you?

walter said...

Good medical approach ya got there.
What is this? Dunno. Could be a few things. Wait..possibly COVID!!!!
Pathetic.

FullMoon said...

Wisconsin voters dead from Covid 19 top seven thousand...

FullMoon said...

Just kidding, nobody died, false alarm..

Narr said...

Luttwak's 'Grand Strategy of the Roman Empire' and 'G. S. of the Byzantine Empire' are standard works. I've only read the first so far-- very clearly presented, and worth the study (if you're interested in the history and not points). His 'Give War A Chance' is
refreshingly realistic; if he made predictions badly, well, a historian should know better than to predict anyway.

As for 'the Germans destroying Western Civ' that's just silly--unless you equate late Roman western Europe with Western Civ itself. If there is a Western Civ, it has grown precisely from that destruction and the syntheses that eventually emerged.

And the Byzantines would be surprised too-- the richest and most important parts of the late Republic and the Empire were in the East. The West had Rome and some garrison towns; the East had Constantinople, Antioch, and Alexandria, and they were the Roman Empire-- so much so that the Turkish leaders, after they eventually took over, titled themselves Sultans of Rom.

Narr
This seems like a good time to plug Robert Graves's historical novel about Belisarius, the great Byzantine strategist.

Jon Ericson said...

You deserve a medal.

Inga said...

What to Know About Kawasaki Disease, the Pediatric Inflammatory Condition Possibly Linked to COVID-19

Walter, here you go.

J. Farmer said...

Pure gibberish. You can do better than that.

I gotta go. Long drive home. Later, dude.


Devastating rebuttal.

But just in case you actually believe it is "gibberish," allow me one further attempt to clarify. Do you believe it's possible to do your best and still fail?

walter said...

Quite compelling, including the footnoted articles. Looks like there was Covid testing for some, though results were either conflicting or inconclusive/co-existing. In one instance there was suggestion that a concern was the supposedly uncharacteristic to Kawasaki elevated ESR, CRP in blood work.
However,
Recognition of Kawasaki Disease
TABLE 2: Laboratory findings suggestive of Kawasaki disease: elevated ESR, CRP...

and for the more severe form of Kawasaki:
Kawasaki disease shock syndrome: Unique and severe subtype of Kawasaki disease.
CONCLUSION:
The presence of coronary aneurysms was significantly and positively correlated with male gender, IVIG resistance, inotrope treatment, cardiac failure, abdominal pain and neurological symptoms. IVIG-resistant patients had higher neutrophil : lymphocyte ratio. Abdominal symptoms, hypoalbuminemia and elevated C-reactive protein were present in almost all of the patients. Multisystem involvement with atypical presentation in KDSS is frequent. An important differential diagnosis is TSS. Mechanical ventilation, gastrointestinal and neurological symptoms were associated with IVIG resistance and the presence of coronary aneurysms. The first line of treatment includes IVIG and pulse corticosteroids; in severe cases, infliximab, anakinra, cyclosporine or plasmapheresis are alternative treatment options.

walter said...

Expect to see Time subscribing parents dragging their kids to ER with one of these: "fever, skin rash, red eyes, cracked lips and swelling"

buwaya said...

The field armies that Western Rome could muster in the fifth century may have been fractions of the size of those it could raise in the second, third and fourth centuries.

Anecdotal, and my impression, based on information in Ammianus, etc., on the armies of Julian, of Stilicho, of Aetius.
Also there seems to be supporting archeological evidence based on known garrison sites.

It may be (it is closer to being the conventional wisdom) that the military potential of Rome weakened rather than the power of its enemies increased.

buwaya said...

The transformation idea re the fate of Rome is BS. Every trace of physical evidence points to a massive depopulation, and "simplification" of material culture all over Western Europe.

In other words, civilization collapsed into barbarism, just as per the conventional wisdom. And many millions died in the process.

Rusty said...

If you get up early you can do it too.
You want to know the secret?
Focuse the camera and shoot the picture.
That's it!
Nature does the rest.
Oh sure. You might have to wander around awhile til you get to a place where you can frame it, but you have a ton of chances to get it right because sunrise happens every day.

iowan2 said...

Howard,
Concerning the packing plants and water treatment, I have been running through my head, all the ones I know of. They all operate self contained water treatment, you must have first hand knowledge. Where are those plants, and what is there capacity? Very old plants grandfathered in?
I worked on conceptual planning of a huge pork plant in eastern Iowa back in the 80's. No river. They need 4 wells, 800 feet deep, to get below the common aquifer. Then they got purchase options on close to 1000 acres of ground, not including the plant site/ water treatment. The additional acres were needed for alfalfa production. Waste water treated to a level where it would be used to irrigate alfalfa. The concept is basic water cycle management. Packing plant use extreme amounts of water. That's why my experience only knows plants cited close to rivers, to facilitate minimal impact on the water cycle.

Nichevo said...


J. Farmer said...
@Mark:

When a profession starts becoming almost totally dominated by labor unions, be suspicious.

An alternative to unions would be more stringent labor regulation and enforcement and a tight labor market that would allow workers to bid wages up. Deal?

5/6/20, 7:57 PM



IOW-->robots. Which may not be all that bad. I suppose you want to drum out the seasonal apple pickers and stonemasons and other specialty laborers of that type who tend to be foreign? A man as open-handed with other people's money as you surely not bulk at lots of vocational training for stonemasons & apple pickers, right?

Do you really want to zero out furriners? Forever, or what? Even ones who go home when we're done with them?

What are some measures that would make it harder for you to run your business? Let's do those.