April 25, 2020

"Taking a different approach to other nations contravenes jantelagen, the Scandinavian societal rule that forbids sticking your neck out or being noticeably ambitious."

"'If this succeeds, the first casualty will be jantelagen,' Annie said. 'We’ll be so pleased with ourselves.' Yet as the death toll rises, a significant number of people believe Sweden may have made a fatal error of judgment.... The state claims that the curve of infections has flattened. But as the weather warms up there are fears that the numbers will rise sharply if partygoers ignore the rules. For Plan B and other venues, their future livelihood may depend on their ability to enforce social distancing while still holding public events. 'I hope they don’t impose more rules,' said Ellen. 'Otherwise the summer could be ruined.'"

From "Sweden: the young dance at a distance amid growing fears about fatal coronavirus misstep/In a world on lockdown, the country has so far refused to introduce harsh public restrictions" (in The London Times).

Jantelagen — I'd never heard of that! It means the Law of Jante. Jante is the name of a fictionalized town in a novel by Aksel Sandemose called "A Fugitive Crosses His Tracks." Sandemose — who was was Dano-Norwegian — was satirizing the culture of Nordic countries. Sandemose identified 10 rules these people were following:

  1. You're not to think you are anything special.
  2. You're not to think you are as good as we are.
  3. You're not to think you are smarter than we are.
  4. You're not to imagine yourself better than we are.
  5. You're not to think you know more than we do.
  6. You're not to think you are more important than we are.
  7. You're not to think you are good at anything.
  8. You're not to laugh at us.
  9. You're not to think anyone cares about you.
  10. You're not to think you can teach us anything.
There's also an 11th rule, which is considered to be the penal code: "Perhaps you don't think we know a few things about you?"
While the original intention was as satire, Kim Orlin Kantardjiev, a Norwegian politician and educational advisor, claims that the Law of Jante is taught in schools as more of a social code to encourage group behaviour, and wants to credit it with making Nordic countries have high happiness scores. It has also been suggested that contentedness with a humdrum lifestyle is a part of happiness in the Scandinavian countries.... [H]owever, there have also been articles which link the Law of Jante to high suicide rates. Backlash has occurred against the rules, and in Norway someone even placed a grave for Jante Laws, declaring them dead in 2005.... [O]thers have questioned whether they will ever go away, as they may be firmly entrenched in society....
Interesting that the worldwide lockdown could be the occasion for Sweden to break out of the limitation of the Law of Jante. You'd think people who'd internalized those rules would be the first to shut down, not the last to go along with a shutdown everybody else accepted as necessary. I'm speculating about the causation. Maybe if you're not to think you are anything special, it doesn't matter so much if you die.

ADDED: Rule 5 — "You're not to think you know more than we do" — made me think of Bob Dylan's "Desolation Row":
At midnight all the agents
And the superhuman crew
Come out and round up everyoneThat knows more than they doThen they bring them to the factory
Where the heart attack machine
Is strapped across their shoulders
And then the kerosene
Is brought down from the castles
By insurance men who go
Check to see that nobody is escaping
To Desolation Row

156 comments:

Birkel said...

What evidence is there that any particular strategy has been effective?
I have yet to find any.

Let's kill all the jobs just to be sure we are safe.
#LeftyLogic

Danno said...

All of the smart Swedes moved to America around 150 years ago when Sweden's population was too large for its largely agricultural population and the farms too small to make a living.

alanc709 said...

Does the Law of Jante also say anything about turning a Lutheran country over to Moslem hordes?

Sebastian said...

"the young dance at a distance amid growing fears about fatal coronavirus misstep"

How is the dancing of the young connected to growing fears?

They aren't at any risk anywhere else; are they in Sweden?

Will not dancing protect old, sick people in nursing homes, the prime target of the virus in the U.S.?

How does dancing at distance slow down herd immunity? Young healthy Swedes need to dance closer.

madAsHell said...

The first rule of fight club is.....

Drago said...

The desperation on the part of many for Sweden and Brazil to suffer catastrophic deaths is palpable.

For if they do not..............

Ken B said...

A promising discussion, Dylaned in its tracks.

J. Farmer said...

Even if Sweden’s strategy is successful on their terms, that doesn’t make it replicable.

Birkel said...

One approach is to stay calm and carry on.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/wisconsin-saw-no-coronavirus-infection-rate-spike-after-april-7-election-study-says

It would appear that approach is reasonable.

Birkel said...

Another approach is that if nattering nabobs of negativity.

Over to you Smug and Concern Troll.

Inga said...

“They aren't at any risk anywhere else; are they in Sweden?

Will not dancing protect old, sick people in nursing homes, the prime target of the virus in the U.S.?”

Young people with Covid are having strokes, not much fun.

https://www.foxnews.com/science/coronavirus-may-cause-strokes-in-younger-patients-report

‘In an interview with CNN, Mount Sinai Health System neurosurgeon Dr. Thomas Oxley said the virus is causing clots in arteries, resulting in "severe strokes."

"Our report shows a seven-fold increase in incidence of sudden stroke in young patients during the past two weeks," Dr. Oxley added. "Most of these patients have no past medical history and were at home with either mild symptoms (or in two cases, no symptoms) of COVID."”

Birkel said...

Seven fold equals how many people?

Sorry you didn't get all the deaths you wanted from the election.
I know how hard this is on you.
My sympathies, Royal ass Inga.

Drago said...

J. Farmer: "Even if Sweden’s strategy is successful on their terms, that doesn’t make it replicable."

Yet if Sweden had said it locked down and "worked" everyone would be replicating like mad.

Ingachuck'stoothlessARM said...

"You're not to think you know more than we do"

made us think of our 'elites', not Zimmy

BUMBLE BEE said...

Daily Mail...
China filed a patent for a drug seen as one of the best potential weapons against coronavirus the day after it confirmed human transmission of the disease.
Model world citizens!
Better to err on the side of bankruptcy, I always say.

Darrell said...

The Swedes let their old step off a cliff. If they don't die, a woman goes over and smashes their skull in with a rock or club.

walter said...

Here we send them back to the nursing homes with PPE and a bodybag.
Now that's some replication.

walter said...

"Even if Sweden’s strategy is successful on their terms, that doesn’t make it replicable. "
Beauty of being unfalsifiable as opposed to control group.

J. Farmer said...

Yet if Sweden had said it locked down and "worked" everyone would be replicating like mad.

Probably. But my point remains unchanged. There are huge question marks still hanging over the virus, its effects on the body, and the geographic variations in outcomes. There is no clear picture on what is currently happening with the spread of the virus and even less clear on what will happen. Acknowledging the limits of our understanding would be helpful, but there is pressure for people to have "answers" leading to people making guesses on the basis of limited data which are then presented as certainties or confident assertions.

Shouting Thomas said...

Imagine there's no Dylan
It's easy if you try
No 60s nostalgia below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the lawyers
In their nursing homes... Aha-ah...

gilbar said...

Thanx for pointing out Sweden's suicide rate (higher US)
How happy ARE you, if you kill yourself?

Bill, Republic of Texas said...

Who are the "we"?

J. Farmer said...

@walter:

Beauty of being unfalsifiable as opposed to control group.

How can Sweden be a control group given the confounding variables?

Ralph L said...

Someone here brought up the Law of Jante a couple of days ago.

gilbar said...

you ever notice how, EVERY day; Igna is here to tell, Just How BAD it is;
and EVERY day, it's a DIFFERENT thing? NOW it's Strokes... What WILL it Be, Tomorrow?

JaimeRoberto said...

If I recall correctly, Jantelagen was discussed on Anthony Bourdain's show during his visit to Denmark. If not by name, at least the concept.

bagoh20 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Bay Area Guy said...

It's remarkable to me that some folks want Sweden to fail.....

It's remarkable to me that some folks seize on as many deaths as possible to justify stricter lockdown and, hence, much greater economic woes for our blue collar and service class.

Oh well, I reckon flawed thinkers can be flawed humans, too.

Let 'em Work!

Inga said...

“...EVERY day, it's a DIFFERENT thing? NOW it's Strokes... What WILL it Be, Tomorrow?”

Yes goober, I made up the story about young people who have positive Covid tests presenting with severe stroke.

walter said...

There ya go, Farmer.
It's all confounding.
Like failed models avoiding critique by heralding better than expected behavior/compliance.

bagoh20 said...

One thing you absolutley cannot say about Sweden's response is that it has done them worse than the alternatives. They have been passed up and eclipsed in deaths/million by many of our states and many other nations in the EU. I'm not aware of any nation or American state that started out with Sweden type numbers in mid March, and has done better. Maybe there is one, but I can list dozen who have done worse using their lock-down approaches. When you add in the extreme cost, which will be catastrophic, it really makes you think: What have we done? It's unfair that Sweden is also suffering economically becuase of the world wide response. I'm impressed and thankful that they took a different approach, so we have at least one comparison against the sheeple path. If they turn out to be right, or at least no worse off, then we all owe them a debt of gratitude, assuming we can learn from the experience, which is doubtful.

daskol said...

Anecdotally, I have rarely met people more critical of their home countries, and more grateful to have departed, than entrepreneurially inclined Swedes, Danes and Norwegians working in American or Canadian or British global business--for many of them, immigrating to the Anglosphere was a professional, personal even psychological escape from doldrums they believe non-scandinavians can't even understand. Ultimate selection bias problem, but I've worked closely with a few talented folks originating in these lands and it's enough that I'm highly skeptical when anyone holds out Scandinavia as some kind of model for civilization. Those countries can be really hard on anyone who sticks out, and especially if they want to.

Lloyd W. Robertson said...

Some U.S. draft dodgers went to Canada; some went to Sweden. Those in Canada tended to stay; those in Sweden, not so much.

walter said...

"as the weather warms up there are fears that the numbers will rise sharply"
But it will reduce virulence and allow anal sunbathing.

daskol said...

I don't mean for that to cast an aspersion on what Sweden is doing with this virus. If people practice sufficient social distancing "naturally" as an aspect of their culture, then this may be a highly sensible approach: if we'd shut our borders and advised people to wear masks early, we might have avoided this costlier path altogether.

Automatic_Wing said...

How can Sweden be a control group given the confounding variables?

Does the Endless Lockdown model have a "control group"? Surely it must because peeps on Facebook assure me that endless lockdowns are backed by SCIENCE!!!

bagoh20 said...

"Even if Sweden’s strategy is successful on their terms, that doesn’t make it replicable."

If you consider the cost, it would be crazy to not try everything within our power and imagination to avoid doing what we did next time, but then we would be asking the government to have an imagination to try something beyond top-down control and intimidation.

Except for possibly the Civil War, I don't think we have ever done anything so reckless and damaging to ourselves in our history.

Rory said...

A Sandemose once bit my sister.

J. Farmer said...

@walter:

Like failed models avoiding critique by heralding better than expected behavior/compliance.

I've said from the beginning we shouldn't rely on models as basis for decisions. The assumptions and variables plugged into them are of little values, because we don't have reliable data.

bagoh20 said...

Sweden is described as having a culture of not stepping out of line, yet they alone walked a different path on this. In this challenge they were more American than Americans.

chuck said...

I don't think we are far enough along to draw any conclusions except that rates are all over the place and we don't know why. Oh, and the news sucks :)

J. Farmer said...

@Automatic_Wing:

Does the Endless Lockdown model have a "control group"? Surely it must because peeps on Facebook assure me that endless lockdowns are backed by SCIENCE!!!

No. But I wasn't the one who introduced the idea of a control group. The initial response was justified not because we knew what was going to happen, but precisely because we didn't know what was going to happen. Now we should be ending shut downs in a staggered, systematic way.

Yancey Ward said...

Drago is correct- Sweden offers a contrast that certain people desparately wish wasn't possible. I think this, more than any real concern for the lives of Swedes, is the real reason Sweden is facing constant media pressure to relent and join the rest of Europe in lockdown. There was a commenter over at Marginal Revolution last week that kept trying to assert that the data from Sweden look like New Jersey, but just two weeks behind. I kept pointing out that Sweden's new cases had just kept bumping along between 300 and 700 new cases a day for almost a month- not like New Jersey at all, but he apparently had antibodies against against the information.

Sweden is doing it correctly- building herd immunity slowly and consistently, and that example must be destroyed.

ga6 said...

Yep, the ones who thought they could get a head or didn't want to conform to the state church got on the boats. My grandparents among them. Met some of my relative from southern Sweden in the middle 1950s. Smug self satisfied noses in the air; we are better but can't show it attitude.

Bay Area Guy said...

Good article on the status of reopening several US States: Reopening of America accelerates as states prepare to relax coronavirus restrictions

Ready or not, America is opening back up.
The process that began in recent days with back-in-business nail salons and unbarred sandy beaches in a scattering of states is poised to accelerate over the coming week across wide swaths of the country. After shutting down much of American life in March and keeping people home throughout April, governors are preparing to lift restrictions as the calendar turns to May - and cross their fingers that the novel coronavirus doesn't come roaring back.

bagoh20 said...

" The initial response was justified not because we knew what was going to happen, but precisely because we didn't know what was going to happen. Now we should be ending shut downs in a staggered, systematic way."

But we still don't know what is going to happen with the virus? We are simply starting to see what will happen to the economy, and that's the reason we are trying to start back up. Infections and deaths are far higher now than when we started the shutdowns, but we are now forced to actuality weigh the costs. They were completely ignored in the beginning, and just given lip service. I'm sick of hearing people say "I get it, but...". They didn't get it. They looked right past it with a self-righteous tunnel vision that was cold and indifferent.

ga6 said...

"All of the smart Swedes moved to America around 150 years ago when Sweden's population was too large for its largely agricultural population and the farms too small to make a living."

True, in the wake of the 1840s revolutions/revolts in Europe land reform in Sweden had an inheritance clause, the farm had to be divided equally among the surviving children, in two generations a farm turned in a number of garden plots. The state church subsidized the movement to America, a ferry ran from GBurg and Malmo direct to Liverpool, the Swedes got off, walked down the pier to the ship to America. One of my Grandmothers went that route at 11 years of age, to an Aunt in Providence RI.

madAsHell said...

building herd immunity slowly and consistently

I'm sorry, but how in the world do you create herd immunity without a vaccine?

n.n said...

Full body condom.

madAsHell said...

Herd immunity is the anti-Vaxer community living within the vaccinated community (the herd). If you stay within the vaccinated herd, then you don't have to worry about being vaccinated.

J. Farmer said...

@bagoh20:

But we still don't know what is going to happen with the virus?

That's why the opening should be done "in a staggered, systematic way." We have a lot more data now and learning more each day, including the results of the various antibody testing. Testing capacity is also expanding. A couple of months ago, we had very little data, almost no testing capacity, and no real experience with treating the disease. Buying time was necessary to address these deficiencies.

n.n said...

I'm sorry, but how in the world do you create herd immunity without a vaccine?

Herd immunity refers to closing transmission paths, including denying the virus safe sanctuary through innate immunity, acquired immunity, inoculated immunity, and administration of disinfectants (e.g. HCQ+AZ).

J. Farmer said...

I'm sorry, but how in the world do you create herd immunity without a vaccine?

You have to allow the virus to move through the population. We are using the mitigation method to address the outbreak, which is to slow down spikes to give time to get prepared. To do the suppression method, you need to be able to test, trace, and quarantine. We can't do that. We still don't know what immunity to the virus looks like.

n.n said...

Herd immunity is the anti-Vaxer community living within the vaccinated community (the herd).

Also, individuals not eligible for inoculation due to age (e.g. Fetal-Americans a.k.a. babies), congenital conditions, and pregnancy; and effects, including: inflammatory response, toxicity, and other side-effects that can force a sudden or progressive loss of viability.

Inga said...

“I'm sorry, but how in the world do you create herd immunity without a vaccine?”

It’s not even known if a person gets lasting immunity from having survived Covid.

n.n said...

From "Sweden: the young dance at a distance amid growing fears about fatal coronavirus misstep/In a world on lockdown, the country has so far refused to introduce harsh public restrictions" (in The London Times).

Not limited to Wuhan virus (formally known as SARS-CoV-2). The only safe choice is full body condom to mitigate risk throughout the year, throughout our evolution. Social distancing over a trimester or more only serves to teach the wrong lesson about life fraught with risk and "burdens".

Birkel said...

The only approach that fits J Farmer's many objections is what?
I mean what, precisely, is all your negativity supposed to accomplish, FFS?

The best approach was to tell people in the highest risk groups to avoid catching the virus.
And, contra Governor Cuomo, not send sick people back to skilled nursing facilities with people at highest risk.
And then the rest of us could have kept going to work.

Also, maybe NYC could have chosen either to run more trains or close the subway altogether.
And the beaches in Florida could have stayed open.

As so many of us have been saying from the beginning.

ken in tx said...

During the Vietnam War, a relative deserted from the US Army and went to Sweden. He didn't like it there and after about a year and a half, he came back and turned himself in. He thought serving time was better than living in Sweden.

Inga said...

“Forty people in Milwaukee County may have become infected with the coronavirus as a result of participating in Wisconsin elections on April 7.

Milwaukee Health Commissioner Jeanette Kowalik says data is still being analyzed to show the connection between more people that may have contracted COVID-19 due to election activities, like being a poll worker or voting in person, earlier this month. Kowalik hopes the data will be finalized by May 1.”

https://www.wuwm.com/post/40-coronavirus-cases-milwaukee-county-linked-wisconsin-election-health-official-says#stream/0

Makes me wonder how many more cases there will be from the protest in Madison yesterday. The people waiting in lines to vote actually tried to stand apart from each other and a lot of people wore masks. Not so at the protests in various states.

wildswan said...

Deaths in seven states are higher than flu deaths for this year. In the other 43 it's the same or lower. So let the 43 open up while looking at why the seven have such high rates. It may be that those excess deaths are concentrated in prisons and old people's homes in NYC, Chicago, Detroit and New Orleans. (Not all deaths, the excess deaths.) Then let the rest of the state open up. Meanwhile, investigate hygiene practices at prisons and old people's homes which were or are "hot spots." I've been in jails and lockups in the prolife wars. Some were clean, some in big cities were basically dirty with infections held at bay by pouring antiseptic cleaners all over the place and by modern medicine. Sheets with come on them have been distributed in places I've been showing that the laundry was not exactly cleaning what it "washed." Maybe all this neglect has returned as a virus pathway. Attention CDC.

madAsHell said...

You have to allow the virus to move through the population.

"Bring out your dead!!" is not herd immunity.

n.n said...

You'd think people who'd internalized those rules would be the first to shut down, not the last to go along with a shutdown everybody else accepted as necessary.

The pandemic and social contagion that forced mismanagement of resources that subsequently caused excess deaths and spreading, will be the basis to review the progress of globalism (e.g. supply chains), immigration reform (e.g. elective conflicts), diversity (e.g. racism, sexism), social justice (i.e. relativistic), social progress (e.g. social contagions), and Planned Parenthood (i.e. excess deaths).

Birkel said...

"...lasting immunity..."

Many of the vaccines we have do not have that, depending on how one defines "lasting".
None of you bitchy people who would sacrifice the future of all Americans for some undefined potential benefit will ever admit that some of us were right all along.

You'll know but you won't admit it.

n.n said...

"Bring out your dead!!" is not herd immunity.

Innate and acquired immunity. Vaccines are few and far between, and rarely confer durable immunity. Physical distancing is either a short-term response to delay the virus's progress at the cost of collateral damage or a long-term response through permanent isolation (e.g. 12 feet).

Birkel said...

masAsHell,
You are free to cower in place.

madAsHell said...

It’s not even known if a person gets lasting immunity from having survived Covid.

Wow!! We agree on SOMETHING!!

traditionalguy said...

#10 Never trust a girl with a dragon tattoo.

DavidUW said...

Yep. Sweden is running around the middle of the pack for death rates but did so without shooting its economy in the face.

So it must be destroyed.

Of course many states could have done the same thing, from Idaho down to rural Nevada& Arizona, over to Texas and Louisiana outside of Nola, up all the great plains, and over to the upper midwest and south, outside of Chicago, Detroit and a smattering of other cities with problems. Oh wait, that's well over a majority of the nation.

Heck, California could have exempted the state outside of the Bay, LA, SD and Sacramento. Ditto for Oregon and Washington outside of Portland and Seattle. New England outside of Boston, upstate NY etc etc.

madAsHell said...

cower in place

Maybe you can teach me how to cower??

Howard said...

Only the dead know herd immunity.

Kathryn51 said...

claims that the Law of Jante is taught in schools as more of a social code to encourage group behaviour, and wants to credit it with making Nordic countries have high happiness scores.

Kill me now.

On a different note: In a year, we will know WHERE the Swedish experiment lands in the spectrum of damaged economies, lockdowns, "guidance", drone police, welded shut to starve, open beaches, air-conditioned restaurants, etc. etc.

Sebastian said...

"It's remarkable to me that some folks want Sweden to fail"

Right after Sweden had been the ultimate prog model. European social democrats and all that.

For U.S. progs, everything is a tool, including Sweden. Sorry, Sweden. As you realize, the utter dishonesty of American leftists is one more difference between them and you.

Anyway, it is remarkable, isn't it, that from the alarmists we get 1. we didn't know anything, therefore we had to the most destructive thing ever done in the history of the United States; and 2. after the fact we know perfectly well that the maximally destructive thing saved thousands, nay, millions of lives. About 10,940,000.

Birkel said...

Happy to do it, madAsHell.
You stay locked away with food, beverage, and medicines you may need.
The rest of us work.
We good?

J. Farmer said...

@Birkel:

The only approach that fits J Farmer's many objections is what?
I mean what, precisely, is all your negativity supposed to accomplish, FFS?


Relax, sweetheart. You're getting hysterical. Let me write what I've already said now for the third time: "Now we should be ending shut downs in a staggered, systematic way." What I've also said is that there is way more about this virus that we don't know than do know. I've said this because I think it's true, and it's what I wanted to write. The fact that it's not what you want me to write means fuck all to me. Have a good evening. Hugs and kisses.

Drago said...

“Forty people in Milwaukee County may have become infected with the coronavirus as a result of participating in Wisconsin elections on April 7."

"...may have become..."

Inga: "Makes me wonder how many more cases there will be from the protest in Madison yesterday."

When Not Facts immediately become "Facts" to the Russian collusionist Truthers.

Birkel said...

Sebastian,
To be fair this is only the second most destructive thing ever. The Civil War maintains the number one spot.

Sebastian said...

Sweden called BS on the general shutdowns. In the U.S., prog hegemony can usually beat down such deviance, or turn it into politically useful TDS. But Sweden is, so far, immune to American prog attacks. That stings. Especially coming from Sweden. And more especially since it shows that it is possible to be sorta left and sane.

wild chicken said...

. They looked right past it with a self-righteous tunnel vision that was cold and indifferent"

E.g., nearly all the /Medicine redditors.

Sebastian said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Sebastian said...

Birkel: "The Civil War maintains the number one spot."

Yes. But at least it had one very positive outcome--two, really. The Panic of 2020 is purely destructive: maximum cost for no gain.

Birkel said...

Smug,
The gay schtick means nothing to me. You sound childish.

We never should have shut down. In fact, the very same reasons we should be opening back up (from government mandates) is why the government mandates were a terrible prescription. We went from people making reasonable decisions about protecting themselves to arresting surfers and throwing them in jail while some governors released prisoners for fear of them getting a virus.

It was dumb from the start.

But I do like how those of you with fascist impulses reveal yourselves.

Birkel said...

Sebastian,
That is fair.

chickelit said...

Isn't Greta Thunberg in violation of several Jantelagen? I'm assuming that lagen is plural like in German.

J. Farmer said...

This won't even be as destructive as the Great Depression, let alone the Civil War.

J. Farmer said...

@Birkel:

Calm down.

chickelit said...

Here's something for you chem-nerds like me: Suppose that COVID-19 acted like a catalyst and triggered a societal reaction that was poised to happen i.e, was thermodynamically downhill. There was a tremendous barrier before COVID, but COVID lowered that barrier. The left wanted economic shutdown; the left wanted fewer flights; the left wanted more attacks on Trump and hopefully his ouster. Isn't it weird how many on the left seem to be on board with the sorts of shutdowns we've seen?

Howard said...

J Farmer successfully gay-baited birkel.

Howard said...

Couching conspiracy claptrap in chemical contrivences for $200, Alex

J. Farmer said...

The left wanted...

"The left" controls Japan? And South Korea? And Taiwan? And India? And Pakistan?

One of the first people in the US to raise alarm bells in the US was Tom Cotton. De Blasio was telling New Yorkers not to worry about coronavirus and urging them to get out and go celebrate a festival in Chinatown.

chickelit said...

Drago said...
“Forty people in Milwaukee County may have become infected with the coronavirus as a result of participating in Wisconsin elections on April 7."

If they randomly tested 400 people who went out and voted -- that's what you might expect to find. If they tested 400 voters who stayed home, they might find the same positives.

J. Farmer said...

J Farmer successfully gay-baited birkel.

And I was just reacting to the fact that he sounded like an hysterical, pearl-clutching woman. He's usually much more sober than that.

chickelit said...

Howard said...Couching conspiracy claptrap in chemical contrivences for $200, Alex

I was hoping to hear from someone who knew chemistry -- not the class clown.

Howard said...

Natural bottoms like to get trolled. The poor man can't help himself.

bagoh20 said...

This mitigation route reduced the infection spike at first at the cost of spiking the economic impact. But eventually the infected population gets larger anyway, and now there are so many positives and the need to get back to productivity will force us out of our holes and the number infected and waiting to meet us is much greater than before. Those dedicated to not getting it at all costs cannot come out for a long time. They are trapped until those of us who are not terrified build the herd immunity up around them, but someone has to do it. The vaccine is a year away and could be much longer, maybe a number of years. Getting past this requires us young and healthy to take the risk, which will start becoming less of a risk every day we are out. The purpose of flattening the curve has been accomplished whether mitigation did it or not. The healthcare system is not over-loaded and in many places never was and is now running below normal demand. It's time to come out of the cave. The bear isn't going anywhere until we do, and he's not the worst risk at this point.

chickelit said...

The left" controls Japan? And South Korea? And Taiwan? And India? And Pakistan?

Not seeing the relevancy of that. And de Blasio said that before he got the memo -- as did Pelosi her statement.

chickelit said...

@bagoh20: What I see from my perspective is a large California University declaring itself "open" when it's not. I see faculty too timid to even leave their homes. There has been no measurable negative impact on their lives -- in fact, they are less "burdened" by students. Thing is, their "business" is bleeding money like crazy. It's probably true in Madison as well.

chickelit said...

I used to tutor all levels of chemistry online and in person. The in-person market has vanished, and the online rates have plummeted w/r/t what they were just a couple months ago.

Inga said...

I’ve seeing much more panic and hysteria from the Covid deniers and minimizers than from anyone else for the past 6 weeks. I’ve been saying they sound like they’re losing their shit.

J. Farmer said...

Not seeing the relevancy of that. And de Blasio said that before he got the memo -- as did Pelosi her statement.

It suggests a more plausible explanation for why people are "on board" than a relation to some amorphous "societal reaction that was poised to happen."

chickelit said...

It suggests a more plausible explanation for why people are "on board" than a relation to some amorphous "societal reaction that was poised to happen."

Whatever. What I can add to clarify is that the change we've been through occurred with remarkable ease and rapidity. And so here we are with the expectation that it will be "easy" to get back to where we were. I'm saying that we won't -- and, separately, that there really are people -- especially in the media -- who want to see the COVID viral reaction used to hurt Trump. The later is obvious from reading comments here.

Birkel said...

One of us understands the destruction of middle- and working-class peoples' futures.
The other is Smug.

All of the people willing to sacrifice those "below" them are nasty shits.

Inga said...

And it’s not at all believable that Birkel really cares about anyone, he’s simply jumped aboard the “Fight against the system!” train. He’s one of the sociopaths here that routinely harasses young mothers with children like that poor young woman WWWW.

chickelit said...

bagoh20's 8:02 makes the most sense of anything here so far -- including my comments.

Lurker21 said...

Jantelagen sounds a lot like what Roland Huntford was talking about in his 1970s scare book on Sweden, The New Totalitarians. He saw the Swedes as a timid conformist people, afraid to rock the boat or stand out in any way.

In Australia, they call something like that the "tall poppy syndrome." The tallest poppy is the one that gets it's head lopped off. Also from Australia, the cultural cringe -- the feeling that one's country's culture is inferior and something you have to apologize for.

bagoh20 said...

"bagoh20's 8:02 makes the most sense of anything here so far -- including my comments."

Aaaaaah, Chickie, you sweet talker. I think I love you, becuase you are one smart dude.

J. Farmer said...

@Birkel:

One of us understands the destruction of middle- and working-class peoples' futures.
The other is Smug.

All of the people willing to sacrifice those "below" them are nasty shits.


And to think it was only an hour ago you were complaining about "objections" and "negativity."

I already explained how to prevent such "destruction," but you were against that, too. Because of, uhhh, reasons. You've chosen to keep that particular opinion to yourself without "remuneration," which I guess you think sounds smarter than "getting paid."

n.n said...

the infected population gets larger anyway, and now there are so many positives and the need to get back to productivity will force us out of our holes and the number infected and waiting to meet us is much greater than before.

Something similar happened with the polio virus, where an obsessive, almost compulsive, attachment to sanitation, and socially distancing young people, caused excess injury and loss of viability... until a vaccine, which are few and far between, was developed to mitigate its progress, thus reducing the planned population and collateral damage.

Drago said...

Inga: "I’ve seeing much more panic and hysteria from the Covid deniers and minimizers than from anyone else for the past 6 weeks."

A multi-year economic depression is definitely something to concern yourself with.

Not you of course. The dems have been calling for an economic calamity to defeat Trump for years now.

WWIII Joe Biden, Husk-Puppet + America's Putin said...

bagoh20's 8:02 makes the most sense of anything here so far -- including my comments.

I second that. Not trying to sweet talk anyone. Facts is facts. Reality is what it is. Some people just get it.

walter said...

"Milwaukee Health Commissioner Jeanette Kowalik says data is still being analyzed to show the connection between more people that may have contracted COVID-19 due to election activities"
Oh..no doubt they're trying to make that connection.

Milwaukee had 5 out of 180 voting locations open, increasing density in the hot spot of the state. I can't find in person totals for that county but I saw a figure of >18,000 for city of Milwaukee.
WI DHS has already suggested increased testing with looser criteria is a factor: “We have correlation they voted and they were at the polls, but we do not have causation." part of the problem of tying phase progression of entire state to case decrease.
I just was watching a WIDHS media briefing with a National Guard rep saying 1st that a few of their members had contracted covid. Reporter later followed up asking about whether they got it while helping at the polls.
Guard guy said the covid positive members had never been called up so must have gotten it elsewhere. Good to know..sir!

Original Mike said...

"This won't even be as destructive as the Great Depression, let alone the Civil War."

Gee, and here I was worried…

J. Farmer said...

@Drago:

A multi-year economic depression is definitely something to concern yourself with.

What makes you think that such an event must occur as if by the inevitable consequence of forces outside of our control?

Ken B said...

MadAsHell: "Bring out your dead!!" is not herd immunity.

No, but if you read some of the denialists here it’s part of their plan.

J. Farmer said...

@Original Mike:

Gee, and here I was worried…

Glad I could reassure you. It's odd how many people seem to think "the economy" is some kind of freestanding, spontaneously-ordered institution. The economy we all participate in is created and mediated by the state.

Original Mike said...

"Oh..no doubt they're trying to make that connection."

Inga already has.

That article was completely devoid of facts.

walter said...

"The economy we all participate in is created and mediated by the state."
Ah. Then it's only right they can squash it at will.

narayanan said...

Even with the polio virus >>>>> Australia did things differently than USA

Confronting the Conventional

Sister Kenny: Confronting the Conventional in Polio Treatment

In 1940 the Queensland government sent Kenny and her adopted daughter, Mary, who had become an expert in Kenny's method, to the United States to present her controversial polio treatment to doctors. She received a cool reception from the U.S. medical establishment. Not only was Kenny's method almost directly opposite of conventional treatment, but the terminology she used in describing her treatment was also foreign to doctors.

chickelit said...

Drago wrote: The dems have been calling for an economic calamity to defeat Trump for years now.

I think that's demonstrably true. And, one need not even suggest that the CORON virus was a conspiracy (which is where the puerile-minded Howard went.). Any catalyst would have done. The point is that too many on the left see political advantage in shutdown -- they "like" the position we're now in. God, just look around.

narayanan said...

Blogger J. Farmer said...

The economy we all participate in is created and mediated by the state.
------------===========
better put than what Obama said : you didn't build that

Drago said...

J farmer: "What makes you think that such an event must occur as if by the inevitable consequence of forces outside of our control?"

Filed under: Questions not remotely associated with any previously posted comments.

Would you like to try again?

Birkel said...

Smug now believes Top Men will solve our problems.
That's the sort of ignorance to be overcome.

And Royal ass Inga continues to lie.
Nobody is surprised.

chickelit said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
chickelit said...

The economy we all participate in is created and mediated by the state.

That's by and large true of the stock market. Look at how it dipped and then recovered and now appears* stable at pre-Trump levels. This conveniently removes that nasty braying about gains by Trump.

_________________
*now appears con grano salis.

J. Farmer said...

@walter:

Ah. Then it's only right they can squash it at will.

That you think there is an "it" that can be squashed is part of the problem.

Birkel said...

chickelit,
You might want to do a bit closer review of the Dow under Obama. We are well above where it was 3.5 years ago.

J. Farmer said...

@Drago:

Would you like to try again?

Sure, what is it about our current situation that you think can result in a "multi-year economic depression"?

J. Farmer said...

@Birkel:

Smug now believes Top Men will solve our problems.
That's the sort of ignorance to be overcome.


In case you haven't been paying attention, "Top Men" have been at the helm of the system you've been participating in your entire life. What do you think backs up those numbers you see on your statements? I'll grant you that a great deal of voluntary choice is permitted, but it's permitted within a system created, regulated, and controlled by the state. The easiest solution to smooth the disruptions from the cessation of many people's economic activity is to inject cash into the system. I know you scoff at this idea, but since you refuse to actually say why, we'll simply have to agree to disagree.

narayanan said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
WWIII Joe Biden, Husk-Puppet + America's Putin said...

we are all gonna get this virus eventually.

narayanan said...

jantelagen, the Scandinavian societal rule that forbids sticking your neck out or being noticeably ambitious.
-----------===========
how does that square with venturesome Vikings?

quite opposite to civilization
civilization

Civilization is the progress toward a society of privacy. The savage’s whole existence is public, ruled by the laws of his tribe. Civilization is the process of setting man free from men.

bagoh20 said...

For the most part, "Top Men" are not. If they were, they would be the men paying them. "Top Men" are usually of two varieties: the older ones got lucky and kissed the right asses, and the younger ones are too young to have blown it yet or kissed enough ass. Truly successful vision and decision making leads men to becoming the guy who hires "Top Men", because nobody can do it all themselves, so you end up delegating. If you're lucky, you have smart, loyal and ambitious kids, otherwise you hire "Top Men", and you fire most of them.

J. Farmer said...

@narayanan:

Civilization is the progress toward a society of privacy. The savage’s whole existence is public, ruled by the laws of his tribe. Civilization is the process of setting man free from men.

Utter utopianism. Men can never be free from men.

bagoh20 said...

"we are all gonna get this virus eventually."

A lot of us anyway. I think I must have had it already. I know 6 people who have tested positive in the last few weeks. Before I knew that, I had pretty close contact with almost all of them: shaking hands, talking face to face, exchanging money or other things. But, people I have had close contact with afterward have tested negative, so it does not seem to be going through me. I take my temperature multiple times a day, and nothing.

Myself and two other people I live with were in California in early February for about a week, we drove around in the same car. All three of us had a very bad flu afterward, one after the other, and then my sister who lived with us went through the same thing. I want the antibody test, and I'll get a hat proclaiming immunity. It's kinda like getting a vasectomy.

bagoh20 said...

"Men can never be free from men."

That's gay.

Ken B said...

Bagoh20

I want to make sure I understand your comment of 9:54. You believe you and your family are immune.

And you spend hours a day denying the danger to others.

Birkel said...

I certainly agree that the system has been retarded by those Top Men, and that the entire country has been held back economically as regulatory capture has made the whole country less competitive.

And I have the advantage of being correct.

Smug, you reveal yourself to be a Collectivist. And that is a stupid position.

boatbuilder said...

"The economy we all participate in is created and mediated by the state."

I'll give you "mediated." "Created"? Really?

So if we all stop working and producing--the state can create an economy? WTF?

If you define "economy" to mean the system of control, that is true but is a tautology.

The actual wealth--the important stuff--is created by the people who do the work.

Birkel said...

Ken B is a dishonest Concern Troll.

Birkel said...

Buchanan.
Friedman.
Hayek.

I know their accurate writing has been overwhelmed in the academic world by philosophical treatises that are in no danger of applicability, but economic ignorance is still a terrible thing.

Top Men are not because the amount of information they would need to make decisions cannot be collated. Too much information. Ever-changing. Held at too many nodes.

If Top Men could exist (They don't.) they would not be up to the tasks assigned.

Instead, the smartest guys in the room get 58,000 Americans killed in Viet Nam. Always.

Birkel said...

Top Men create Obamacare.
Top Men create Cash-4-Clunkers.

Foolish people believe in Top Men.

Drago said...

Farmer: "Sure, what is it about our current situation that you think can result in a "multi-year economic depression"?"

Number 1: We have shoved ourselves into an economic depression with democrat governors in particular putting out the word that it will take years for them to fully reopen their states.

Hmmmm, I don't require a number 2.

Gk1 said...

This Israeli mathematicians theory from beginning of April seems to be holding up pretty well. Whether you shelter in place, social distance, shut down your entire economy or did what Sweden did it didn't change the trajectory of infection and recovery.

And as the guy noted and keeps being missed at Althouse is Italy's health care system collapsed during the 2017 flu season too. So this helped create the illusion of an out of control pandemic that would swallow us whole.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/top-israeli-prof-claims-simple-stats-show-virus-plays-itself-out-after-70-days/

PluralThumb said...

And after the Dylan of the Bob goes his own way, the rest return to speculation, confusion and very witty, remarkably intelligent bickering. Yeah, I'm staying with bankrupsy. Wouldn't want to support those that make fun of Dylan. Thank you Bob for supporting the majority that talk down on you. Much nicer than myself. No thank you.

bagoh20 said...

". You believe you and your family are immune.

And you spend hours a day denying the danger to others."


I have no idea if I'm immune to the virus. It's just a possibility, a hope that those hunkered down in their holes cannot have.

And what's this obsession you have with "deniers". People who have data and facts that you chose to deny or discount, and they are the "deniers"? The whole truth is something that is unknowable at this point, and thus those differing ideas could be right, and that leads you to disparage and attack? What's wrong with you? What are you afraid of? You should be hoping you are wrong, and they are right, but you actually prefer to see no better option than to destroy the economy and the lives of millions. You desperately hang on to that like a blanket, as if it's a good thing. I follow the facts, and I will end up wherever they lead, but I also want to be right, becuase it would be awesome, but you? What you want to believe actually sucks long term. You may end up being right, but I don't understand why you want that so bad, that you want to shut out any better possibility. You do realize that you can't possibly know the truth yet, right?

Are you losing anything with this lock down, or is that just something you passionately want for others?

Lurker21 said...

Alan Alda credits the Sister Kenny treatments he received from his mother as a young boy for his complete recovery from polio, stating in his autobiography Never Have Your Dog Stuffed that he has no question about their efficacy. In an interview with the Actors Studio, the actor Martin Sheen recounted that he contracted polio as a child and it was only due to his doctor using Sister Kenny's method that he regained use of his legs. -- Wikipedia

J. Farmer said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
bagoh20 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
bagoh20 said...

Farmer: "The notion that there is even something called "the economy" is basically an invention of the 1930s."

Whew! That's a relief. Drink up!

Ha, too late.

Lurker21 said...

Jantelagen also sounds like the old Labour Party in Britain, at least at the grassroots. There was room for toffs and eccentrics at the top of the party, but in a local club, you didn't want to get above yourself or you'd be made to pay for it.

It also seems to have something in common with communal "Asian values" in China and Japan. I guess the question for Americans is: can you have that kind of communal consciousness, which is good in some ways, and still maintain your individuality and your aspirations?

walter said...

Now Jantelagen is in its cross-hairs.
Is there nothing Covid can't kill?

tim maguire said...

Here’s the trillion dollar question that we can only hope will one day be analyzed and answered: can you tell by looking at a country’s infection pattern what strategy they took and when they took it?

Initial hypothesis based on the graphs at the Johns Hopkins tracker site is, no. You can’t.

Fernandinande said...

Sandemose identified 10 rules these people were following

"Identified" = "invented", and contradicted by the content of the article. It's fun to exaggerate stereotypes of white people!

Just like Americans are noisy and ignorant and greedy.

J. Farmer said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Jupiter said...

"Suppose that COVID-19 acted like a catalyst and triggered a societal reaction that was poised to happen i.e, was thermodynamically downhill."

Yeah, it is difficult to believe that a society which was not fundamentally damaged to begin with would cower in terror when confronted with a bad flu season. Still not as bad as 2017, you remember what a Hell that was!

Jupiter said...

Maybe it's because we are an increasingly atheist society. The atheist is always one slight shock away from existential dread. The World is fundamentally cruel, uncaring and unpredictable, and that is hard to function well while aware of that fact.

Jim at said...

Yes goober, I made up the story about young people who have positive Covid tests presenting with severe stroke. - Inga

He/she's not saying you made it up, you dolt. He/she is simply pointing out you hope and wish for death and destruction every, single day on this board so somehow you can be 'proven' right. About something.

You're a fucking ghoul.