NYT has a headline and subheadline that don't cohere. If the imams have the power to "overrule," then the government didn't "give in." If the government "gave in," then the imams were only petitioning the government for relief. From the article, it seems that the latter is correct, so it's the subheadline that is accurate:
As Ramadan drew closer, dozens of well-known clerics and leaders of religious parties — including some who had initially obeyed the lockdown orders — signed a letter demanding that the government exempt mosques from the shutdown during the holy month or invite the anger of God and the faithful. On Saturday, the government gave in, signing an agreement that let mosques stay open for Ramadan as long as they followed 20 rules, including forcing congregants to maintain a six-foot distance, bring their own prayer mats and do their ablutions at home....
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Now critics are asking who’s in charge
The imams.
Imran khan is a tool of the imams, the isi and the army, not necessarily in that order,
It kind of hurts old Allah's brand to afflict folks who follow the rules.
God wants submission and hates sinners. That’s all legalistic religions offer. Now go die.
I'm actually impressed the Imams accepted the restrictions they did. This is a culture where the closer you get to sixth century hygiene the more "authentic" it is, so the fact they accepted some safety standards is quite impressive.
And I only partially agree with traditionalGuy: in the three great Abrahamic religions, both Judaism and Christianity offer repentance and atonement. Islam doesn't.
FREEDOM!!!!!!!!!!!
"If the government "gave in," then the imams were only petitioning the government for relief."
If the mafia comes to a bar and "petitions" the owner to sell mafia beer, you would conclude that the owner is "in charge"?
I agree with rehajm.
Governor Kemp of Georgia is looking pretty cautious in comparison...
It was the will of Allah.
Nothing shall ever happen to us except what Allah has ordained for us. He is our protector. And in Allah let the believers put their trust. - Quran (Surah Tawba, Verse 51)
This story should make you all weep.
It is dispiriting to see Muslims more able to take care of themselves than the average US citizen.
We are all a bunch of sheep and we don't deserve our freedom.
Holy Month, Batfluman!
the term is velayat al fagih, (rule by clerics) largely a shia phenomemon, but it applies here,
NYT frequently has headlines that don't match the story. See, for example, yesterday's NYT multiple changing headlines on the story about the (quoted) CDC Director, which did not match the quote.
In this case of following 20 rules at Ramadan services at mosques, there was no mention of monitoring to confirm the rules will be followed, nor penalties for failure to follow them. In other words, much like Irish Democracy (massive, passive resistance to governmental dictates ) Soviet Economics (I'll pretend to work for the government that pretends to pay me), Pakistani Secular Government is shown here to be "Pretend the government is in charge while the imams run things as they like."
How many nights have the Parisian Isalmic banlieues had violent riots? Four? Five? Ah, ignore it, can't mean anything, especially coming up towards Ramadan, right?
"Imams Overrule Pakistan’s Coronavirus Lockdown as Ramadan Nears."
"The government gave in to clerics’ demands that mosques be allowed to stay open during the Islamic holy month."
Well, they might have been looking at the US where democrat officials direct fully armed/body armored police into Churches and Synagogues to stop services while allowing Mosques to kind of do whatever they want.
Alternate headline, subheadline:
Shithole Eases Lockdown For Religious Nuts
Who does that remind you of?
The Imams tweeted “LIBERATE!”?
the US where democrat officials direct fully armed/body armored police into Churches and Synagogues to stop services while allowing Mosque
An established Pro-Choice, selective, opportunistic, politically congruent religion.
I fucking love Muslim science!
“Who does that remind you of?”
Georgia?
Prudent and bold. For example, there are effective social distance multipliers, including: open spaces, grayhouse effect (i.e. convection, mixing), good hygienic practices, masks (with goggles), intermission, dispersion.
None of my business.
My dentist in Madison emailed that they are opening back up. I don't know how that squares with Herr Ever's edict.
NYT has a headline and subheadline that don't cohere. Why am I not surprised...
“Who does that remind you of?”
Inga: "Georgia?"
Whenever the islamic supremacists pull something, Inga always, and I do mean ALWAYS, immediately reverts to attacking republicans and conservatives.
Without fail.
But only every single time.
I think its an Inga policy, like never criticizing MS13 machete murderers. Probably because they have a spark of divinity or something.
I wonder what would happen if Carter Page converted to Islam? Would Inga immediately cease lying about him being a russian spy? That would be a fun and interesting experiment.
I wonder when their going to demand that the Saudis reopen the Great Mosque in Mecca for the Hadj
A Packaninny?
I'm beginning to believe that Althouse is a Muslim. She's infinitely more friendly to Muslims than she is Christians.
The Libtards will DEMAND the US open for Ramadan.
Does Pakistan have the First Amendment?
In Pakistan they have to balance lives lost due to the Commie Bat Pox with lives lost due to bombings.
ANTIBODY STUDY: One of every five NYC residents are already immune to COVID. The fatality rate is likely in the neighborhood of 0.5%.
speaking of Governments "giving in", or "being overruled"
does ANYONE think that Governments would be continuing these lockdowns, if government employees were being laid off? Instead of being PAID, to "work" at home?
I mean to say, how long would Gov Evers keep this up against the wishes of AFSCME ?
I'm guessing... About 3 seconds
My favorite part: do what we want or "invite the anger of God and the faithful."
Not sure the authorities fear the "God" part of that combo as much as the "faithful," given the fact that the faithful frequently demonstrate a will and ability to follow up the threat.
You're going to need a bigger mosque.
Sounds Ok to me. Keep the 6 foot rule. No more dangerous than going to the Grocery Store.
We are all a bunch of sheep and we don't deserve our freedom.
Oh brother. I assume you pay taxes and obey laws. Obedience and compliance are wired into human nature. We couldn't exist as a social species without it.
Does Pakistan have the First Amendment?
It's a bit different than ours: "There shall be only one religion, it is supreme over all life, and all non-believers must die."
It is known as the Free Exercise clause that promotes choice as a key societal value. You are free to exercise Islam or die.
@BarrySanders20:
It is known as the Free Exercise clause that promotes choice as a key societal value. You are free to exercise Islam or die.
That's one of the reasons Islamic societies lag so far behind Christian ones. And why notions of Islam ever having a "reformation" are so off. The Quran gives instructions on how to manage a society. That is fundamentally different from the world view of the New Testament (e.g. kingdom not of this world, render unto Caesar, etc.).
Obedience and compliance
Maybe it's cooperation you're thinking of.
But the important question remains - will porn consumption on the internet fall there with the new rules?
( Pakistan is a world leader in that category)
It’s a wink wink nod yes - one of the commandments is to shake hands as good adherents of the ROP. So you will see outbreaks to rival the Orthodox in NY and NJ. Not good rules followers unless it’s in the manual from God.
It’s the snakehandler’s dilemma - will my faith protect me?
That's one of the reasons Islamic societies lag so far behind Christian ones. And why notions of Islam ever having a "reformation" are so off. The Quran gives instructions on how to manage a society. That is fundamentally different from the world view of the New Testament (e.g. kingdom not of this world, render unto Caesar, etc.).
Rodney Stark also makes this point in his book, "For the Glory of God." The Quran and Allah have all the rules fixed and there is no way to alter them. Christianity is successful because the believers can make up rules to adapt. There is no change in Islam.
“Whenever the islamic supremacists pull something, Inga always, and I do mean ALWAYS, immediately reverts to attacking republicans and conservatives.”
Oh lighten up, Francis.
will porn consumption on the internet fall...?
And will a decline in internet porn be accompanied by a decline in "snake handling"?
J. Farmer said...
We are all a bunch of sheep and we don't deserve our freedom.
Oh brother. I assume you pay taxes and obey laws. Obedience and compliance are wired into human nature. We couldn't exist as a social species without it.
There are times when your posts are really shallow and ridiculous.
Curious to see how Dearborn, MI handles this.
J. Farmer said...
That's one of the reasons Islamic societies lag so far behind Christian ones. And why notions of Islam ever having a "reformation" are so off. The Quran gives instructions on how to manage a society. That is fundamentally different from the world view of the New Testament (e.g. kingdom not of this world, render unto Caesar, etc.).
Promoting critical thinking and questioning authority and individual responsibility used to be things that set Protestant society apart from Muslim society.
That is not what we have now.
People who are willing to kill you if you do not go along, are always in charge.
That's one of the reasons Marxist societies lag so far behind free and open ones. And why notions of Marxism ever benefitting the masses are so off. Marxism gives instructions on how to manage a society. That is fundamentally different from the world view of the Free Market (e.g. the invisible hand, individual rights, etc).
Temujin: "Curious to see how Dearborn, MI handles this."
Dearborn MI can, due to the one obvious reason, do whatever they want with zero thought of any state or local action.
In Minnesota you have democrat Mayors cheering on local mosques meeting as they always do.
@Bob Boyd:
That's one of the reasons Marxist societies lag so far behind free and open ones. And why notions of Marxism ever benefitting the masses are so off. Marxism gives instructions on how to manage a society. That is fundamentally different from the world view of the Free Market (e.g. the invisible hand, individual rights, etc).
The only problem with that statement is "the Free Market" is a theoretical construct that doesn't exist anywhere in the world. States have existed since practically the beginning of civilization, and there is no sign of them going away anytime soon.
@Achilles:
Promoting critical thinking and questioning authority and individual responsibility used to be things that set Protestant society apart from Muslim society.
That is not what we have now.
I take your point but seems hard to believe that there was more "critical thinking and questioning authority" in the west in the 18th century compared to now.
“ Curious to see how Dearborn, MI handles this.”
Indeed. Having lived there I have an expectation. The police and city bend over backwards to accommodate. So the rules being applied to the rest of Michigan will not be applied to mosques in Dearborn and area. Especially the big one on Ford Road.
“ but seems hard to believe that there was more "critical thinking and questioning authority" in the west in the 18th century compared to now.”
Amongst the selectorate (jargon) it might be. In England for instance that’s the era of the Whig ascendency, and as an example Burke as a leading parliamentarian.
The only problem with that statement is "the Free Market" is a theoretical construct that doesn't exist anywhere in the world. States have existed since practically the beginning of civilization, and there is no sign of them going away anytime soon.
A Christian society, an Islamic society, a Marxist society and a free market society are all aspirational, imperfect in practice, existing only in some degree.
Since when does a free market mean no government?
I may have to drive out tomorrow and see how mosque attendance looks.
As for Islamic 'reformation,' some smart guy said there can't be one because there is no Islamic pope.
One interesting aspect of the late USSR is how the Reds and Muzzies accommodated themselves in Central Asia's Muslim majority areas: the Muslims would come out and parade on the Commie holy days, and the Reds would leave the Muslims alone to beat their wives and bugger their nephews the rest of the time.
People like Al-haj Al-Afghani, Rashid Rida, Mohammed Abdu and others broke their heads against Islamic resistance to modernity as long ago as the 1890s. They were pretty clear that Muslims' problems came from not enough modernity; by the time of Qutb's rant many intellectuals had concluded that no, the problem was not enough Islam!
Narr
That's about where most Muslims have been all along
I ALWAYS bring my own prayer mat! I'm not a dirty savage.
"Now critics are asking who’s in charge"
Read any stories in the NY Times about the mosques in New York being shut down? Arrests of Muslims violating the ban on gathering? Friday prayer mass arrests?
No, no you haven't.
I think we know who's in charge.
@Bob Boyd:
Since when does a free market mean no government?
Governments prevent an open market and the ability of supply and demand to set prices, the two basic components of a free market. We have a regulated market. But so does pretty much every other country in the world. A Marxist vs. free market economy is a false dichotomy. Every economy is a blend of the two.
Bernard Lewis pointed out that in the West one typically made a pile of money and used it to corrupt the government, while in the East (Islam included), the goal was to seize the government and use it to loot the economy.
@Ken B:
Amongst the selectorate (jargon) it might be. In England for instance that’s the era of the Whig ascendency, and as an example Burke as a leading parliamentarian.
Possible. But also, people have far more options for where to devote their time and energy than in the age of Burke. More options available for the smart and inquisitive has decreased the pool available for public service occupations (e.g. elected officials, teachers, etc.). That's why female teachers of the past were generally far better than teachers today. Smart women had fewer career options and so teaching had a better pool of talent to choose from.
Inga will be happy to know that The Imam from Athens ordered the Georgia Gyms to open tomorrow. I will be at Golds at 6:00AM and get a sunrise pic from the treadmill to troll all the locked down folks dreaming of freedom.
Governments prevent an open market and the ability of supply and demand to set prices, the two basic components of a free market.
No, they make those things possible.
A Marxist vs. free market economy is a false dichotomy. Every economy is a blend of the two.
Not all regulation is Marxist and totalitarian, nor are all regulations about central planning and the government owning the means of production.
Without some regulation you wouldn't have a free market or an open society. You know that.
Some people have an urge to see God much sooner than others; who are we to stand in their way?
do you still have to wear your masque in the mosque?
is a full burka better than a n-95 mask?
Salvation Allah-mode
...and a cup of tea?
is a full burka better than a n-95 mask?
Maybe that's an opportunity. Start marketing an N95 burkha and an N95 shemagh to Muslims online.
Farmer
Agree strongly about teachers.
@Bob Boyd:
Not all regulation is Marxist and totalitarian, nor are all regulations about central planning and the government owning the means of production.
Without some regulation you wouldn't have a free market or an open society. You know that.
There is a reason the strongest advocates of free markets are anarchists or minarchists. The entire notion of free markets is that prices will self-regulate in an open market through supply and demand.
You're describing a regulated market, not a free market. Every country essentially runs a regulated market but differs in degree and kind of regulation. All regulated markets also have a degree of central planning and government ownership. That is really the debate--the degree and kinds of regulation not whether or not to regulate. Also why I think terms like "capitalist" versus "socialist" aren't particularly helpful because there is no clear distinction between the two. All economies are a blend of the two.
Of the 57 or so Islamic countries which one isn't applying the Immans ruling?
Donchaknow, Muslims are better than the rest of us?
Their book tells 'em so.
"You are the best nation produced [as an example] for mankind. You enjoin what is right and forbid what is wrong and believe in Allah . If only the People of the Scripture had believed, it would have been better for them. Among them are believers, but most of them are defiantly disobedient." Surah 3,110.
You're describing a regulated market, not a free market. Every country essentially runs a regulated market but differs in degree and kind of regulation. All regulated markets also have a degree of central planning and government ownership. That is really the debate--the degree and kinds of regulation not whether or not to regulate. Also why I think terms like "capitalist" versus "socialist" aren't particularly helpful because there is no clear distinction between the two. All economies are a blend of the two."
Now that there is a stretch folks. One does have to overlook legal systems that permit private property.
D. D. Driver 12:36 PM
The frustrating thing about this NY study is that by presenting it as a statewide picture. I would like to see what NY Metro looks like in isolation. I can't imagine that the counties in western NY have 13% infection rate.
@cubanbob:
Now that there is a stretch folks. One does have to overlook legal systems that permit private property.
Private property is a broad concept, but which legal systems specifically are you referring to that do not "permit private property"? That, of course, is different from countries that simply have poorly defined or poorly enforced property rights' laws.
Never interfere with an opponent that is destroying itself. - Napoleon.
And in this case let Iran be Iran!!!
Also why I think terms like "capitalist" versus "socialist" aren't particularly helpful because there is no clear distinction between the two.
That's why I chose the word Marxist. People have come to understand socialist as just meaning a greater role for the government or a bigger welfare system. But you can have those things without public ownership of everything, which what socialism traditionally meant.
You're describing a regulated market, not a free market.
I'm describing reality. No theoretical system exists in a pure state, not even anarchy. If anarchy could exist for more than about 5 minutes, it wouldn't beget a free market.
Every country essentially runs a regulated market but differs in degree and kind of regulation.
That's what I'm saying. It sounds like we're basically in agreement aside from semantics.
@Bob Boyd:
That's what I'm saying. It sounds like we're basically in agreement aside from semantics.
I agree. But why did you copy my paragraph and change the words for "Marxist" and "free market." I thought you were trying to make a point to me by doing that but wasn't sure what that point was.
@Paul:
Never interfere with an opponent that is destroying itself. - Napoleon.
And in this case let Iran be Iran!!
That's a good strategy. The problem with the Iran fanatics is that they constantly depict Iran as a huge power on the verge of taking over the region.
Imagine being a third world country with limited control over the people within the borders, limited control capacity, and limited resources and getting forced to make this decision. Better that than destroying untold wealth.
Cubanbob
You mean like this?
"Private property" as conceived under the liberalistic economic order was a reversal of the true concept of property. This "private property" represented the right of the individual to manage and to speculate with inherited or acquired property as he pleased, without regard for the general interests ... German socialism had to overcome this "private," that is, unrestrained and irresponsible view of property. All property is common property. The owner is bound by the people and the Reich to the responsible management of his goods. His legal position is only justified when he satisfies this responsibility to the community. [90]
Huber, Verfassungsrecht des grossdeutschen Reiches (Hamburg, 1939), p. 361.
John Henry
what could go wrong that's esser wing of the national socialists,
But why did you copy my paragraph and change the words for "Marxist" and "free market." I thought you were trying to make a point to me by doing that but wasn't sure what that point was.
Now I've forgotten.
Oh yeah, I was comparing the effects of Marxism on a society to those of Islam. They both retard progress and for basically the same reasons.
I think Marxism actually is a sort of substitute religion.
@Bob Boyd:
Oh yeah, I was comparing the effects of Marxism on a society to those of Islam. They both retard progress and for basically the same reasons.
True. But luckily the kind of Marxism you're worried about is all but dead. The countries closest to using that model are Cuba, North Korea, and Venezuela. All economic basket cases with very little enthusiasm for copying their model.
D.D. Driver, the New York antibody results are a considerable underestimate of how many people have gotten the disease and recovered. OBVIOUSLY. So if it takes 20 days to seroconvert, 22% seroprevalence today is likely 40% (or more) infected overall. And we don't know the false-negative rate or whether or not asymptomatic or mild cases have lower antibody responses than severe cases. The infection rate could be 50 or 60 or 70% in New York City. I think New York City is going to be very close to herd immunity at the end of this outbreak and its infection fatality rate is going to be around 0.2 - 0.3%. I don't think the rest of the country is going to go through that. Something is way off with NYC. Either its demographics or maybe Cuomo is cooking the books or maybe having the best doctors and hospitals in the world made things worse. I don't know. But we have prisons here in Illinois that are reporting over 70% infection rates with (unfortunately or fortunately) no deaths.
@J. Farmer see John Henry's reply to you. And that wasn't even full bore Marxism. As for you denigrating Bob Boyd by naming Cuba, Venezuela etc you seem to overlook what the Left in this country is currently advocating. Simply look at the current intellect of the Democrats AOC and the Bernie crowd and what they are pushing for. Analyze John Henry's post and it starts where the Democrat Left wing wants to go.
But luckily the kind of Marxism you're worried about is all but dead.
That's what they want you to think.
"All economic basket cases with very little enthusiasm for copying their model."
I seem to recall a fair amount of gushing over the "Venezuela miracle" back before their socialist policy chickens came home to roost. To your point, not so much since though.
@Farmer:
“ You're describing a regulated market, not a free market. Every country essentially runs a regulated market but differs in degree and kind of regulation.”
You paint with too broad a brush
The markets in bicycles and SCUBA gear are almost entirely unregulated. And ceiling fans. Plus furniture and landscaping.
Compared to Europe, there are a great many segments within the US economy that are scarcely regulated.
I am totally in favor of the maximum, PERSONAL, contact between the true believing Muslims of Iran! This is especially true for the "Mad Mullahs" of that tyranny.
Farmer's wrong about pure markets being anarchist. Where there is anarchy, market economies fail.
What is required for market economics to work? In a market, people make agreements to buy and sell. So they first have to have a recognized medium of exchange where they can store their time and value of what they have created. In short, outside of a few small scale places, you have to have money or currency. Barter doesn't work for very long. And how do you determine the value of money? A government has to protect it; to value it; to safeguard the money from counterfeit and so forth. If you don't have a trusted currency, markets are destroyed. And for a trusted currency, sometimes you need a strong government. Why do so many small countries use the US dollar, or the Euro? Those are good currencies. Same thing with setting standards: how much is a bushel weigh? How much gold do you need to have in that coin before it's a gold coin? If you want to sell me 40 bales of hay... how much hay is in a bale? And so forth.
Second, in a market you make an agreement with someone else. How can you enforce that agreement? Places that do not have a strong justice system quickly collapse economically. See Venezuela--no longer could you enforce your agreement, nor could you trust that the government wouldn't steal your assets. So business fled. The risk of losing everything was too great, and that risk came because there is no longer a functioning justice system in Venezuela that will enforce contracts or restrain the government.
Third, you need stability and protection. If thieves are rampant; if goods are falsified, trust is low and transactions are hard to do. If the market is under threat of war, of disease or disater, it collapses (as indeed we are experiencing now). No one feels safe in anarchy. Hoarding, concealing, hiding assets to protect them--if that is paramount because you'll lose them otherwise to thieves, bandits, raiders, and there is no one to catch and stop it... you aren't going to buy and sell.
So an effective but limited government is fully necessary for a market economy to work.
The Rules of Modern Journalism as Compiles by Joseph Gobbels, James Acosta, and Pinch Sulzberger
1. Never let inconsistency spoil a juicy narrative.
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