Tell the Democrat Governors that “Mutiny On The Bounty” was one of my all time favorite movies. A good old fashioned mutiny every now and then is an exciting and invigorating thing to watch, especially when the mutineers need so much from the Captain. Too easy!— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) April 14, 2020
I'm not in the mood to write a big long thing right now, but I think this is not all that hard. Use lateral thinking, and remember it's a show — a movie is a show and politics is a show. Trump is enjoying the show. That might be in bad taste, considering all the death and fear of death, but he's doing it all the same.
I'll just sketch out my theory. Trump wants the governors to take responsibility and to do what works within each one's particular state. They're acting as though they are rebelling, and he'll stand his ground as the captain of the ship, insisting on his authority, so they can look like mutineers for the pleasure of the theater audience. It's an exciting and invigorating thing to watch. And the governors get the political cover they need to do what he probably would like to tell them straightforwardly to step up and do.
There's a lot of risk and pain ahead as we attempt to figure out how to get back to something like normal. For a while there, it seemed that Trump's antagonists were holding him responsible for everything. They're not doing that anymore. They've switched to outrage over his statement that the President's "authority is total." And now they're rooting for the Governors to seize authority.
What a performance!
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110 comments:
Ann has DJT figured out. Finally.
Thank Ann, that’s what I thought! But thought I must be missing something since it seemed so obvious and Scott Adams this morning was going on about how Trump could have the authority....
Anthony Hopkins and Mel Gibson with a soundtrack by Vangelis.
The 1980s Bounty is definitely in the top 10 of my favorite all time movies. And Tevaite Vernette as Mauatua...so frickin hot want to touch the heine.
attempted takeover, as the moves in Wisconsin, and the usurpations in virginia and elsewhere,
It's been quite the surprise twist for season 5 of The President starring Donald Trump, hasn't it? I mean season 4 ended with the big impeachment thing. And they already did the election thing back in season 1. So you had to wonder what they had planned. But wow! I mean who saw that coming?
I work with some real blame Trump first coworkers here in CA. They seem completely unaware that dreamy Gov. Newsom was the one who clamped down on people and is the one who can set them free.
I predict that in six months everybody will have forgotten about this shit, and those who remember will be embarrassed that they got dragged into another media induced panic.
Media induced panics have become the norm over the past three years. Has anybody else noticed? That’s the financial structure of digital media.
I refuse to play.
Life always demands the risk of potential pain. There’s nothing to “figure out.”
It's long been apparent, at least to me, that Trump isn't a big believer in the Imperial Presidency. He keeps expecting Congress, state governors, etc. to do their jobs.
The traditional version, found in the earlier movies, is that Captain Bligh was a horrible tyrant and revolt against him was justified and necessary. The revisionist view, reflected in the 1984 movie with Anthony Hopkins and Mel Gibson, is that discipline was necessary on the ship and the mutineers were wrong. There's talk that Trump didn't understand the movies (1935, 1962), but they don't take the 1984 film into account.
Remember when McCain ran. He was compared to Captain Queeg, from the Caine Mutiny.
While I am all for Trump ... still THE STATES HAVE RIGHTS. And the PEOPLE have rights.
If Trump wants to bring out the Army, well he can play Redcoats.
Is he gonna arrest 300 million people???
Keep your eye on the white whale.
I wonder how long it will take until this global nervous system called the internet matures and it becomes more difficult to induce panics thru insane hyperbole, doxxing, mob vendettas and feeding the jealousy and hatreds of political factions?
At the moment we seem helpless before the raging mob of hysterics.
".. and Scott Adams this morning was going on about how Trump could have the authority..."
I heard that, and that's a different issue. Adams isn't relying on knowing any constitutional law AT ALL. I'm not discussing the constitutional issue, because one principle of constitutional interpretation is: Avoid unnecessary questions of constitutional law.
I say the issue will never ripen.
Another thing that was bad about Adams's discussion was that he looked at the question whether the President could order everyone to stay home from work, when the question the Governors were talking about is whether the President could order everyone to go back to work if the Governors think it's not safe yet. It's easier to argue for the President's emergency powers (which he DIDN'T use, he left to the individual Governors) than it is to argue for a presidential power to order everyone to go back to work because the emergency is OVER.
I really don't think the President is going to insist that the economy start up in the same way all across the country. He might want to treat the states different and make New York hold back much longer. It's much better for him if the Governors WANT to make the decisions for their states. It's one thing to impose a uniform federal rule when such a rule is a good thing, but when the desirable approach is a disuniform patchwork, it's much better to have the states do that!
Now, the state Governors are saying that's what they want to do, so that's best for the President too. There's no dispute to be resolved with law. The President is making it seem as though there is, but that's because the audience needs to watch an "exciting and invigorating thing."
On the subject of mutiny.
According to the Judge Advocate General of the US Army, insubordination is not always unjustified, just VERY VERY rare and the circumstances justifying disobeying an order are - quite frankly - extreme themselves. But it can be done, but especially if you are an officer, you better document and CYA like a crazy person.
Historically, Capt. Bligh was ultimately not in error for 'losing his ship' and the mutineers were quite clearly in the wrong and in violation of their duty. The 1984 movie I think does indeed make this clear. Fletcher Christian, had he been caught on Pitcairn's and tried, deserved to hang.
they never do learn, otherwise they would have been embarrassed over the peach mint, or the snipe hunt that avenatti let loose, or so many ridiculous panjandrums,
Andrew Cuomo fancies himself as Fletcher Christian.
There's always the risk our erstwhile Mr. Felcher Christians (Newsom and Cuomo) will drop their roles and attempt to move In with us natives.
He keeps expecting Congress, state governors, etc. to do their jobs.
And got fooled by Ryan et all. It was a big learning experience for him. He thought most people in government were competent. Corrupt and duplicitous but competent. It must have been a shock.
The media discussion of the tweet is so dumb. Just people saying that Captain Bligh was a villain and Trump doesn't know the movie. Really annoying.
Capt. Bligh was ultimately not in error for 'losing his ship' and the mutineers were quite clearly in the wrong
Bligh was an asshole, as his subsequent history illustrates, but he was a great seaman. The post mutiny open boat story is the greatest example of such a trip in naval history.
You nailed it exactly. Governors
defending federalism.
Most of the young men with families that I know used the opportunity created by this panic to make a second income on the black market.
Still drawing their regular salary but not required to go to work, or drawing unemployment.
So, a great opportunity for moonlighting.
How about Georgia Democrat Vernon Jones endorsing Trump?
"The traditional version, found in the earlier movies, is that Captain Bligh was a horrible tyrant and revolt against him was justified and necessary."
My take was that Captain Bligh was a superb seaman but a poor and unreasonably harsh leader. Although the time at Tahiti may have unhinged the sailors minds, or at least contrasted with the harsh discipline that was the norm for the British Navy.
But there's also the aftermath, that the mutineers failed to create a viable society at Pitcairn Island, but instead degenerated into murderous sexual jealousy and other maladaptive behaviors that turned their 'paradise' into a hellish environment.
What makes it a good story is, of course, that very complexity: all the characters are seriously flawed.
Et tu, Pres. Trump?
In 1955, Governor Faubus:
"I was not elected Governor of Arkansas to surrender all our rights as citizens to an all-powerful federal autocracy…. It is my responsibility, and it is my purpose and determination, to defend the constitutional rights of the people of Arkansas to the full extent of my ability.…"
Today, it's Cuomo and Newsom.
The worst mistake by Scott Adams is not understanding the money system. He thinks money is wealth. It's not: it's a ticket to get the economy to do something for you.
Trump is printing tickets. If there are too many tickets relative to what (today's) economy can do at once, you get inflation. Not relative to what the former economy can do at once.
So it's not a case of seeing free money. It's tickets.
Money is wealth to an individual but not to a nation. When they add up a nation's wealth, they don't count money.
As a technical matter, as long as the Fed has an interest rate target, they don't print money. They sterilize anything they print by selling debt and burning the proceeds, i.e., they're borrowing, not printing.
The meaning of "the mutineers need so much from the Captain" is clear.
As he's been saying for a while, the Governors were properly taking the lead, with the federal govt as backup — including backup for the Governors who don't know what they're doing. The federal government backup is done with money and providing resources. That need is going to continue.
The mutiny analogy in the end cannot work, because they can't send the captain adrift and take over the federal government. There's no ship. The "mutineers" have their own ships -- their states.
The media panics are great for business for you, Althouse, and I say that without any anger, nor am I attempting to shame you.
You’re an entrepreneur, and you’re very adept at mining gold from these panics.
Your overnight open cafes are often drawing 300 to 400 comments. Business is booming!
The pro-federalism arguments are traditionally made by conservatives and anathema to liberals, so I'm finding this turnabout a nice invigoration of a helpful concept.
Annette Funicello was the most popular mutineer.
The same people screaming hysterically at Trump for claiming he can singlehandedly restart the economy are the exact same people screaming hysterically because Trump didn't singlehandedly stop the economy sooner.
we moved from RUSSIA RUSSIA RUSSIA to Impeachment for asking about Joe Biden's crimes.
to fear... death... death and fear!
do not depart from the media-D memes!
!
Getting democrats and their alias in the news media to argue for states rights is one of Trumps great moves.
I think Trump was basing much of his idea on the actions of one insane governor ove3r-the-top in Michigan.
i could be wrong.
You keep saying you want a boring bureaucrat as president, Althouse, but your readership will drop dramatically when that happens.
Without Trump as the focus of these media panics, what’s gonna be your hook?
Can you imagine trying to get people worked up over President Slow Joe?
Ms Althouse says this provides cover for the governors. Perhaps it is works the other way around also. When the governors act, they assume responsibility as well as authority. How that affects the swirl of accusations, blaming, and crediting should indeed provide an interesting experience.
I heard the president today speaking with a person who had recovered from the WuFlu. I was taken by the President, never having listened to him in what amounted to a quiet conversation with someone. (I hardly listen to him in press conferences; I don’t listen to those things with any president; but I am aware of his weird speech patterns.)
He is articulate, funny, genuine. He has a great memory for detail. He focuses the conversation on the other person—asking questions about his experience and life history. His vocabulary is excellent. He sounds involved in the conversation, not just checking a box. I really like the Donald Trump I heard, and I can see why before this star turn as president, people liked him.
I can’t believe anyone could hear THAT person and continue to assert that Donald Trump is stupid. In fact, after listening to the conversation, I can now see very clearly how he is playing those that harbor ill will toward him. THEY are the stupid ones.
there was a national emergency declaration, do words mean anything anymore (rhetorical?) the media is mostly progressives with bylines, it's not about relating the facts in anything close to an impartial manner, hence the bbc hated Brexit with a passion and it showed,
Ann Althouse said...
The mutiny analogy in the end cannot work, because they can't send the captain adrift and take over the federal government. There's no ship. The "mutineers" have their own ships -- their states.
4/14/20, 5:00 PM
If one subscribes to the "imperial presidency" doctrine in a de facto sense, it could be argued that Lincoln was the captain of the ships that thought they could secede from the Union, and put down their attempt to mutiny.
I strongly doubt President Trump is going to take the harsh measures I find both enjoyable and necessary, but then again his judgement is overwhelmingly better than any of his opposition. So it's smarter to just trust the man.
As for the Bounty, please remember that Captain Bligh's career was on an upward trajectory after the mutiny, despite the contrary assertions of the Brando film. By contrast, Fletcher Christian didn't long outlive his folly.
AA thinks POTUS is real smart. It colors her analysis. I grant that he's cunning, but I don't believe he was ever all that smart and I think that, like his Democratic opponent, he is now age-impaired.
Just people saying that Captain Bligh was a villain
Would this be the same Captain Bligh who, in a skiff, with 19 crewmen, sailed thousands of miles successfully, while Fletcher Christian couldn't lead his group and would up sinking his boat, to Pitcairn only to be court-martialed, and where, to this day, the mutineers are still raping kids?
Think about Illinois. Think about Michigan.
Those weak characters who occupy the governors'chairs in those two states are surfing the wave of "I care so much that I make you do painful things for your own good." Yeah. Great. How long can they keep that up? Chicago has a huge tourist economy, not to mention convention business, etc. Michigan is a key player in the world's automobile and industrial sectors. They have to get back to work soon, no matter what Zeke Emanuel says.
Trump has mostly said, we offered help, and they did what they wanted to do. We hope it works.
How do they get out of the corner that they have painted themselves into? Their "let no sparrow fall" approach has no end point. But if Trump says, you must relax everything by May 1. They can defiantly say, No! Everything must stay shut down until May 7!
Althouse said...
Trump wants the governors to take responsibility and to do what works within each one's particular state.
Yeah that is kinda my thinking too. I didn't watch the press conference the other day, but apparently people were correctly making a big deal that the President doesn't have total authority to order an individual state to reopen it's economy. Apparently Mike Pence came out later and reiterated that same point, and described the presidential authority as plenary in that regard. The fact that Pence, a former state Governor and a conservative, came out and repeated the same message is kind of hat tip that it was a planned media strategy. It prods Democrat governors to take ownership over handling their own states, and puts them on the message of reopening the state's economies, even if their message is we aren't going to do it right now. It gives cover for republican governors who want to start reopening their states' economies, because you will have a unified media message that it is up to each individual governor to decide what to do with their state, and it gives political coverage for Trump if there is any bad news regarding economies opening up and further spread of Corona, because he will have at least a few days worth of media talking heads on the left-wing networks affirmatively declaring that the US President DOES NOT have plenary authority to tell individual states what to do in regards to opening up their economy.
I don't buy the whole 3-D chess argument for Trump's plans, but I would admit Trump at least plays checkers. And he does set up plans that think 1 turn ahead. This is one of them. Much of the left doesn't catch on though, because their vanity leads them to think Trump is an idiot and they are the smart ones.
The Buck Starts Here
It's similar to what Trump said about the leaders of other nations, that they should look out for their own people's interest. It's their job first, not his. Surprisingly, he is probably the least authoritarian President in our lifetime. He really believes that what is yours is yours. You don't get much of that out of professional politicians.
readering said...
AA thinks POTUS is real smart. It colors her analysis. I grant that he's cunning, but I don't believe he was ever all that smart and I think that, like his Democratic opponent, he is now age-impaired.
These unbiased impressions are hilarious.
I am not persuaded there’s a grand plan here (that’s Scott Adams stuff). I think he's just saying “you'll be sorry”, because he knows about Bligh in the lifeboat. They squawk but they will find they need the wise, steady hand after all.
You're gonna defend our system of federalism, embrace the 10th Amendment, and you're gonna like it! Brilliant!
Has there ever been a time in our nation's history where a Democrat has argued the powers of the federal executive are not absolute?
" I don't believe he was ever all that smart..."
Maybe not, but what do you call it when the decisions you make are roundly criticized, but almost always turn out to be either profoundly correct, as in his travel ban, economic policies, and ISIS engagement, or never the mistakes his thousands of smart critics promise they will be, like the tariffs, middle east, and environmental policies.
If the smart people disagree with you all the time, but what you do ends up better than they ever imagined, then are you smart, or is every body else dumb. I attributed it to luck for a while, but there has just been too much of it for too long. Maybe he's not smart. Maybe he's just right a whole lot, and that's far better.
Trump's tweet is about as transparent and simple as a friendly warning can get. It's all true on it's face. His metaphorical way of expressing it should not really confuse anyone.
"What a performance!"
Indeed. Night after night.
Has there ever been a time in our nation's history where a Democrat has argued the powers of the federal executive are not absolute?
Every time a Republican is in the White House.
“WHO told you that!!!”
Well the press would like to put Captain Bligh in a boat waaaay offshore.
It's easy to manipulate your opponents when you know that they will predictably oppose whatever you say. Trump gets the governors to own the timing of the reopening of their economies, which weakens the media's ability to blame him solely for the deaths that will inevitably occur. Any thinking person saw this move coming.
I have always thought that the 1984 version probably got it right. Who wouldn't want to spend the rest of their lives on a beach with women from Tahiti. Putting Bligh in a rowboat with the loyalists probably made perfect sense. Of course, things didn't really work out for the mutineers- all but one died of disease and murder within 18 years.
Never take open responsibility for things you can't control, but if you can control things you are not responsibly for, well that's golden, man.
Trump has dealt with the liberal media and politicians his entire adult life, smart people live and learn, they learn from the mistakes they've made along the way. Trump is at the top of his game, a game he's good at it and he's enjoying himself and I too am enjoying his big game performance, big time.
Trump is counterprogramming against the socialized medicine gimme the coronavirus handed the Democrats, a development, that is, the gimme, foreshadowed and written about a while back.
Those unemployed individuals and small businesses being shut down and impoverished are receiving their beatings from local mandarins, the same ones who saddle them with local bureaucratic permits and fees as the price of doing business.
Those Independents among them, those not already locked in Democrat or Republican, aren't asking please, Sir, may I have another? Trump is merely providing their tormenters with the credit they're due, very loudly and very publicly, making it clear which political party is destroying their lives.
They will very likely return the favor in November.
Like I wrote in the previous thread- Trump knows what the media is going to try to do once the panic about the pandemic abates- they are then going to blame Trump for the bad economy. So Trump opens some space between himself and the Democratic governors, and lets them decide where they want to make their stand. You saw today that Cuomo knows this was a ploy, and he quickly closed that space up.
The country will open up stepwise and in different areas at different times, but the Democratic governors will have to take responsibility for their own fucking affairs- both for continuing the shutdowns, and how they reopen.
the end result of the Mutiny on the Bounty was ironic: that the mutineers settled in Pitcairn and killed each other off in feuds, but the captain and his men thrown off the ship to die, survived despite a long voyage in an open ship to land.
But I suspect here, Trump is saying a "don't throw me into the Briar patch" meme. But one doubts that many modern reporters know that story eithher.
Every time someone tells Trump how to treat the Press it's always to surrender to their attacks. That's just not how he's made. I say fuck'em up. They can't take it, they're lame counter-punchers, and they deserve it.
I do not understand why people don’t understand what the President is and has been doing...
HE NEGOTIATES OUT IN THE OPEN
It really is that simple. Stop making it complex.
And it works.
“Mutiny on the Bounty” is something people understand... or can rent tonight on Netflix/Apple/Comcast?Amazon/whatever...
People say, “I can’t believe that he’s saying this!” Yet he does... again and again. What are YOU missing? Ever asked that?
Breaking News: "'I will be speaking to all 50 governors very shortly. And I will then be authorizing each individual governor of each individual state to implement a reopening,"
Donald Trump just did exactly as I predicted he would do in this thread:
https://althouse.blogspot.com/2020/04/at-yesterdays-task-force-press-briefing.html
He will be authorizing the governor's of each state to implement a re-opening. Putting the onus on each Governor.
If Cuomo wants to keep New York closed, he can, and the subsequent economic damage is on him. If Cuomo wants to open New York, and people start dropping like flies, then the onus is on Cuomo.
Trump is a master tactician.
"the end result of the Mutiny on the Bounty was ironic: that the mutineers settled in Pitcairn and killed each other off in feuds, but the captain and his men thrown off the ship to die, survived despite a long voyage in an open ship to land."
Which I think is the value of command and discipline, and what people often miss about why it needs to be tough and relentless sometimes. Weak people will destroy themselves and you with them.
Now, the governor's have a new choice:
1) They can accept the onus and thus the subsequent political risks or
2) They can demand that Trump make the decision.
Either way, he wins.
If they accept the political risk, they have two choices:
1) Open, and risk people dying, which Trump will criticize or
2) Don't open, and their citizens suffer the economic damage, which Trump will criticize.
And Trump will be right, no matter which way it goes. He'll have a compelling political argument either way.
Trump makes smart and clever (which I am increasingly finding one and the same) people look foolish. Dreadfully foolish.
In a human society obsessed with being right, he’s calling people out. Voluntarily. And they are raising their hands!!!
Remarkable.
And, to those who might rebut me, ask yourself a question: Do you hold yourself as smart or clever?
93% of Americans think they are above average intelligence.
Huh.
Yep
This is how trump motivates his enemies.
Ah, the old laser pointer trick. And the Democrats and the media are still cats.
the captain and his men thrown off the ship to die, survived despite a long voyage in an open ship to land.
Nordhoff and Hall wrote a second book, "Men Against the Sea" about Bligh's voyage. Nordhoff wrote that one without Hall, I believe.
At the briefing today, Trump made it clear that the Governors are in the drivers seat. He'll push back if some of them try to re-open too fast. But He's not going to force any of them to Re-open before they want. He said 29 states are doing great, and have Governors that are raring to re-open.
But Trump emphasized there's no "one size fits all". Its a big country and NY isn't Kansas. The reporters tried to start a Trump fight with Cuomo, but Trump just said he'd given NY a lot of help, testing is really the states job, and NY will re-open when it feels its ready.
So what's my prediction of what Cuomo will now do:
Cuomo will re-open New York, economically. He will make this decision knowing that New York is different than most places as millions and millions of international travelers enter New York every year. They bring with them whatever germs they left their shitholes with and then start spreading it all over New York.
People are going to drop like flies in New York.
All the while, de Blasio will return to his previous life getting it at the YMCA and making sure all those germ-infected immigrants are stuffed like sardines into the subways so they die and global warming improves. He's re-elected in a landslide.
Cuomo, not so much.
Unfortunately, no movie has captured the drama/brilliance of Capt Bligh in piloting an overloaded, open boat from Tahiti to Java. It was a brilliant job of leadership, navigation and seamanship. Contrary to the myth, the natives were almost always hostile, and landings were made impossible after Bligh and his crew were attacked several times.
It goes without saying, that the real story is much more dull than the made up one by Hollywood. Bligh was an abrasive fellow, but not cruel or unjust. Some of the crew, and Mr. Christian, were more interested in staying in the tropic paradise, then spending another year under Bligh sailing back to England. Of course, Christian was an extremely young man, and so were many of the mutineers.
Several of the crew, were in fact, "the scum of the earth" and probably needed the lash to keep them in check. Later, after the mutiny, some of them proved to be violent, drunken thugs of the first order.
1. Trump says its Cuomo/Newsome's decision to re-open their states
2. These D governors will eventually reopen
3. After they reopen people will die of CV.
4. The press will then blame Trump.
Best Mutiny on the Bounty movie is the 1962 version with Brando. Filmed in Tahiti.
The 1930s version with charles Laughton and Gable is good, but was filmed in California and has too many Americans.
The Bounty with Gibson and Hopkins is probably the most realistic, but doesn't measure up to the other two.
I wonder if Hollywood would ever film a revisionist version of Mutiny? Christian Fletcher forcibly abducted several Tahitians to accompany him on his trip to Pitcairn. Those freedom loving crewman never established an island paradise. Pitcairn was a very rapey place, and it became the custom there......The narrative of Bligh as the proto-fascist and Christian as the tribune of the oppressed working class is easier to sell, especially in Hollywood, but that's not the real story. Is it even possible to tell a story where the underdog's resentments can be shown in a critical light? Maybe they could tell the story from the point of view of the abducted Tahitians--sort of like Rosenkranz and Guildenstern.
"Has there ever been a time in our nation's history where a Democrat has argued the powers of the federal executive are not absolute?"
Every time a Republican is in the White House.
Beginning with the very first Republican in the White House.
Meade: "Beginning with the very first Republican in the White House."
You might be surprised to learn many schoolchildren have been taught Lincoln was a democrat and the slavers/segregationists were "conservatives".
That's fine. Lincoln was a small "d" democrat, strongly pro-democracy. And the slavers/segregationists were conservative. They wanted to conserve and preserve their Peculiar Institution. Read Jefferson's Notes on the State of Virginia.
I think some of Trump's initiatives and rhetoric is also directed toward foreign actors, particularly if intelligence is focusing on China as an immediate malevolent actor regarding fentanyl, the virus, trade, intellectual property, immigration, etc....a full-fledged demonstration by the US of massive US economic power, citizen discipline, ingenuity, and the possibility of state-federal cooperation that can quickly be brought to bear (even if it's activation is a bit rusty and too politized) against a nation-state enemy. It also has the potential of buying time to bring back critical business capability back to the US.
"That's fine. Lincoln was a small "d" democrat, strongly pro-democracy. And the slavers/segregationists were conservative."
That's fucking claptrap. Talk about re-writing history. This is milk through the nose funny.
"Read Jefferson's Notes on the State of Virginia."
Would this be the same state where the governor wears blackface and is still the governor?
You're in some fine company, Meade.
Donald J. Trump
@realDonaldTrump
·
10h
Cuomo’s been calling daily, even hourly, begging for everything, most of which should have been the state’s responsibility, such as new hospitals, beds, ventilators, etc. I got it all done for him, and everyone else, and now he seems to want Independence! That won’t happen!
The only tool of Psychology I have ever successfully used to get my own way is the so called “reverse psychology.” The way for Trump to open the economy is to is tell the governors that only he has the power to do it, then watch them go to it to prove him wrong.
He could also ask the press or governors if he has the power to open the economy, if they say no then he can say, so if that is true, I had no power to close it in the first place so it’s your fault the response was not quicker, not mine. But this would not sink through their thick heads.
Not claptrap nor a rewrite of history. Lincoln and the Republicans strongly supported "states' rights." In his first inaugural address Lincoln even supported the Corwin Amendment.
Michael K said...
the captain and his men thrown off the ship to die, survived despite a long voyage in an open ship to land.
>>>> Not so. The tiny launch was provisioned with food, water and navigation equipment, and the mutineers allowed Bligh to take some swords for their defense. An attempt to obtain supplies at a nearby island failed, with hostile natives killing one seaman. So the boat pressed on, sailing 3600 nautical miles westward to eventually reach Timor.
>>>> Bligh makes for a convenient Snidely Whiplash sort of villain in the films, but from his subsequent career he seems no more a martinet than your average successful British naval officer. As wikipedia puts it, paraphrasing: "he castigated when he could have flogged, and he flogged when he could have hanged".
>>>>Bligh had a long and distinguished career after the mutiny, more evidence that---while being a firm disciplinarian---he was far from being a tyrant.
>>>>An aside: I used to be an antiquarian bookseller. Once I had the pleasure of snagging a 1792 first edition of Bligh's "A VOYAGE TO THE SOUTH SEA, undertaken by command of His Majesty, for the purpose of conveying the bread-fruit tree to the West Indies..."
In it are Bligh's portrait, several maps, and a folding plan showing the positioning of the breadfruit trees in the ship's hold. It's a very interesting read.
I sold my copy to a big-time London dealer years ago after having its spine replaced. You can see it here:
https://tinyurl.com/wqoep23
The "ask" for 1st edition copies in the original binding starts at about $8,000.
I think Althouse got it. Although the tactic implies that the media and the Dems are childish, well, who is their Presidential candidate? Who was their chief Green guru? Who was going to the chief adviser in the Education department? Is the White House Paparazzi Corps able to listen to the answers to their questions or are they basically three-year-olds, high on sugar and screaming at a birthday party?
"Lincoln and the Republicans strongly supported "states' rights."
So, lemme get this straight, Meade.
Lincoln supported "states rights" and "democracy." So, the ability of states to choose their fates and their economic destiny. Each state got to vote how they wanted to proceed.
So then the states decided. Some went for slavery, others didn't.
And so then Lincoln declared WAR on the states for deciding and started killing people.
I don't think Lincoln supported states rights, bro.
From Lincoln's inaugural address, which says NOTHING about the Corwin Amendment:
"I understand a proposed amendment to the Constitution — which amendment, however, I have not seen ..."
The words "Corwin Amendment" are nowhere in Abraham Lincoln's first inaugural address.
Not claptrap nor a rewrite of history. Lincoln and the Republicans strongly supported "states' rights." In his first inaugural address Lincoln even supported the Corwin Amendment.
I can imagine John Breckinridge invading Lincoln’s space during the 1860 debates and asking in a snakey way “but what about the Dingle Corwin Bill??”
I can imagine John Wilkes Booth invading Lincoln's space after the 1860 debates, and asking in a snakey way: "You're for states rights, right?"
“but what about the Dingle Corwin Bill??”
lol
As as long time reader of this blog, although I seldom post, I am certainly happy to see AA finally start to get it. I work in academia (admin--not faculty) and as one of few who are conservative in the law school I'm employed at, one thing my dean and I agree on is Althouse is the place to go to get a pulse on who is moving from NeverTrumper to "well, okay, I agree with him on this point" to "I have no choice, I'm voting for DJT". (not that the actual posters are, but you can take the mood on the nation from the articles posted and stories referenced). It's been an interesting few years as I have watched the transition. And, this is from a Dean who only 20 years ago informed me that media was not really as biased against Republicans as I thought they were. The dean finally agreed I was correct.
Blogger Spiros said...
"I was not elected Governor of Arkansas to surrender all our rights as citizens to an all-powerful federal autocracy…. It is my responsibility, and it is my purpose and determination, to defend the constitutional rights of the people of Arkansas to the full extent of my ability.…"
He was probably right, in general.
But:
1) He was speaking of a state's right to segregate schools, deny voting rights and generally make the lives of blacks in Arkansas miserable.
2) He was a Democrat
I like the idea that PDJT is making Newsom, Guido and other Dems defend the 10th Amendment.
I suspect they are too stupid to realize they are being played.
John Henry
Take the "probably" out of my previous comment. He was right, though in service of an evil cause.
John Henry
wholelottasplainin' said...
Michael K said...
the captain and his men thrown off the ship to die, survived despite a long voyage in an open ship to land.
>>>> Not so. The tiny launch was provisioned with food, water and navigation equipment, and the mutineers allowed Bligh to take some swords for their defense.
I have no problem with his career as a sailor, I am one myself. He did get into trouble with his position as captain general; of Australia,
Seventeen years after the Bounty mutiny, on 13 August 1806, he was appointed Governor of New South Wales in Australia, with orders to clean up the corrupt rum trade of the New South Wales Corps. His actions directed against the trade resulted in the so-called Rum Rebellion, during which Bligh was placed under arrest on 26 January 1808 by the New South Wales Corps and deposed from his command, an act which the British Foreign Office later declared to be illegal. He died in Lambeth, London, on 7 December 1817.
The British Navy was notorious for "Rum, Buggery and the Lash." They had a mutiny at Spithead in 1797.
Bligh was in the tradition of martinets as ships' captains.
I saw the 1930s Mutiny, but this is the one I always remember. What a range as an actor he had!
I read Nordhoff & Hall's _Bounty Trilogy_ a few years ago. Part of my ongoing project of reading books everyone knows about but no one actually reads.
Nordhoff & Hall's take on the Bligh/Christian conflict was a romantic vision of the conflict between God and Satan. The model must have been either "Paradise Lost" or Shelley's "Prometheus Unbound." Christian is a noble dreamer, Bligh is a dullard who rules by fear and power.
The 1984 version was already revisionist - far more sympathetic to Bligh and his ordeal than the earlier versions. As for one from the Tahitian point of view - you'd need a protagonist who was at least as compelling as Christian and Bligh. It would be possible to create one, but it could be hard to avoid the result looking phony and artificial, made up more of 21st century cant than 18th century realities.
Unknown said... [hush][hide comment]
I saw the 1930s Mutiny, but this is the one I always remember. What a range as an actor he had!
Kind of a toss up between him and Brando, in my opinion., but to each his own.
Buckwheathikes: And so then Lincoln declared WAR on the states for deciding and started killing people.
What an interesting take on U. S. history. The poor confused folks of South Carolina have long held that they started the war by firing on Fort Sumpter. They will be glad to know that in fact they had been gracious host to those fine army officers in the Fort and everything would have been fine, too. Except for the Dark Lord Lincoln emerging Sauron like from Washington D. C. just killin folks left and right. Welding his Axe of Power and all, and when all seemed darkest that gallant ranger of the South Robert E. Lee leaped upon his white horse Traveller and rode with haste to Charleston and met the menace from the North and shouted "Thou shall not pass". Just a thrilling story all around.
It's tough to say who was a liberal and who was a conservative in 1860. So much has changed. Look at it one way and Lincoln was a liberal and the secessionists were conservatives. Look at it another way and he was a conservative and they were the radicals. Words like "liberal," "conservative," and "progressive" don't always refer to the same beliefs and policies over time.
I think the thing is that what we think of as a liberal/conservative divide today, doesn't match what our parties were about historically. Parties work better as groups of people with a common interest as opposed to people with a common ideology. For example, early 20th century progressives could be found in both parties. The strict ideological divide in the US has its' beginning in the 1964 election between Goldwater vs Johnson. It really gets going once SCOTUS ruled on Roe vs Wade and the two parties take sides.
"Maybe he's not smart. Maybe he's just right a whole lot, and that's far better."
In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
One Term Tony has blown a hole in the state budget billions of dollars wide. The state economy depends on about 3 million working people and 20% of them are not working. Fewer than 100 people have died of the CCP Virus (and thank God for that). How in the world is he going to make up for the billions in lost revenue? Remember in March when Wisconsin had a $600 million surplus - and Tony wanted to spend it on the schools that he closed! Well, Tony? What is your answer? Raise taxes again? Beg Trump for cash? We're waiting?
"What an interesting take on U. S. history. The poor confused folks of South Carolina have long held that they started the war by firing on Fort Sumpter."
That's not what the Supreme Court ruled.
While yes Fort Sumpter was fired upon, that was not the start of a war. That was merely a pretext for the start of the Civil War, which occurred on April 19, 1861. It was on that date that Abraham Lincoln signed an order blockading ports not merely in South Carolina where this pretextual skirmish occurred, but also in Georgia, Alabama, Florida, Mississippi, Louisiana, and Texas.
The Supreme Court, after the war, fixed this date as the start of the Civil War.
Here's the document Lincoln signed.
https://www.raabcollection.com/abraham-lincoln-autograph/north-and-south-declarations-war
They're playing checkers; and Trumps eating their lunch.
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