What does it mean that we — or at least me and the New York Times — have drifted into fantasies about what TV show this feels like? Funnily, Donald Trump is the TV guy, but with the Democrats, we've got this small cast of characters, and we're making up stories for them. I see 5 characters marooned on an island, and I'm wondering what hijinks will follow?
From the NYT article:
Your characters often struggle to try to understand people and ideas with which they disagree. What have you learned about how best to dramatize that struggle? I wouldn’t want to give the impression that I’ve mastered anything, but there are a couple of things I know now that maybe I didn’t know when I was starting. To begin with, I worship at the altar of intention and obstacle. Somebody wants something, and something is standing in their way of getting it. They want the money; they want the girl; they want to get to Philadelphia. Then the obstacle to that has to be formidable, and the tactics they use to overcome that obstacle are what shows us the character. Now, to answer your question: One of the things that I’ve learned, because I’ve written some antiheroes as well — Mark Zuckerberg in “The Social Network,” even Jack Nicholson’s character in “A Few Good Men” — is that you have to write these characters as if they’re making their case to God for why they should be allowed into heaven. When you’re successful, you get people in the audience saying, “Huh, he’s got a point” to stuff that makes them very uncomfortable.Great intro! Great advice on how to dramatize the actual events.
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107 comments:
The party has moved so far left, candidate Bartlet wouldn't exist.
You can't handle the truth.
Then would Sanders be the hurricane that destroys their ship and casts them all away onto a prison island?
Five? I count three who still have any chance. All of them white males 77 years old or older. Strange to think of Donald Trump as the youthful candidate at 73.
Sorkin can talk about different points of view all he wants, but even in a fictional West Wing he wasn't able to pull the trigger on an orderly transition of power.
I think Sorkin writes for Liz Warren...
Sorkinisims and Warrenisms
They all try the candid comment in a hot mic trick as if they believe we never watched the episode.
Now I know why I never got around to The West Wing.
These campaigns are absurd, drama filled marathons toward the nomination, with the occasional sprint, e.g.; Super Tuesday! They have these odd twists and turns. Putting it in the context of a television show, whether it be sitcom or drama, is an attempt to bring order to the chaotic. Much of it is entertainment and entertaining. We can argue over which candidate aligns best with which character. Alas, no Ginger vs Mary Ann disputes are possible. Biden is definitely Gilligan; a slap happy ne'er do well that stumbles and bumbles into favorably resolving the crisis he creates. Oddly enough, I laugh most at the hand raising and cross talking during the debates, reminds me of those show scenes where they speed everything up to make it urgent and anxious.
Missed chance, but Buttigieg would be a great Gilligan to Bernie's Skipper. Bloomberg is obviously Mr. Howell. The power-elite on the Island is The Skipper, Howell, and the Professor, so Biden has to slot into the Professor role, which is against type but has massive comic potential. Tulsi Gabbard is Mary Ann. I guess I'd go with Warren as Mrs. Bloomberg/Howell, as they both throw up their arms a lot. Good luck with Klobuchar as Ginger.
If Klobuchar drops out, as predicted, then the entire field will consist of septuagenarians, including Warren and Weld. Only Warren and Trump are young enough to be Boomers.
I think the public, and especially the media, academia, and da yoots will all see what the rest of us are seeing- 3 Dems who are all 77+ year old white males ranging from millionaire to billionaire, running against a 73 year old white male multi-millionaire. They will be so possessed with this that the next time around they'll go completely to the far pendulum and make sure a 5'2" black/Indian mixed trans-female Rastafarian gets the nomination. It won't matter what her views are on anything. Just as long as zir gets multiple boxes checked.
Let's see Sorkin write that script.
you democrats have been making up stories since, At Least, November 2016
you are living in a fictional movie
Warren and Klobuchar - Ginger or Mary Ann?
President Bartlett was an elitist blowhard who only came across as admirable and capable because the writers made sure nobody ever called him on his bullshit. The West Wing shied away from real issues while pretending to be a daring exploration.
So it's the perfect fable for left-wing government.
I agree that Sorkin's description of character and tension is pretty good, and his work is consistently entertaining. But ultimately, it's empty calories; an ego stroke uninterested in challenging the audience.
Yes Gilbar, it puts us in the mind of television fiction because it IS television fiction.
MikeR, Warren is the Professor.
Within his framework can Sorkin appreciate Trump's goals and obstacles faced!?
Wasnt the West Wing Hollywood's attempt to show how reasonable and concerned and enlightened their president would be in contrast to that Texas, know-nuthin', George W Bush?
reminds me of the Gong Show.
Tim Maguire hit it exactly right: Sorkin's work is/was initially interesting but is ultimately empty calories.
He, as a writer, reminds me of Obama as a leader. Says a lot of words that sound nice, but when you think about what was said, you realize nothing was said. Sorkin is a talent and has made a phenomenal living filling scripts with his formula.
The characters on Gilligan's Island were all lovable in one way or another, we liked them, we wanted them to be okay. I don't feel like this about any of these Democrat candidates.
They remind me of a sci-fi movie where there's been some kind of accident, maybe sabotage, and the spaceship is drifting and supplies are starting to dwindle and crew members are being killed off one by one but it's not clear who the crazy killer is, they all act weird, maybe they're all crazy. And where are they headed? What was the destination? How did they all get so old? Is that important to the plot or just bad casting? At the end the ship will somehow fix itself and start to head to earth with one crew member surviving, but you're not sure, that could be the crazy killer. You just hope no one thinks this dreck should be made into a series.
Buttigieg was Maryann.
From MN: Klobuchar as Mary Ann’s evil doppelgänger.
Taking Sorkin's point, the intention is the presidency and the obstacle is all things Trump, right? Three-plus years of economic boom, job and wage growth, renegotiated trade deals that are at least marginally better for the US, a ripping-away of the curtain between the public and Deep State the Great and Powerful, and (perhaps most dangerously, for the D's) a new awakening of the "deplorables" to the fact that there are a lot more of them than the media credited, and that they have real power that they can exercise at the ballot box?
So, how the candidates deal with that obstacle reveals their character, by Sorkin's formulation. I would love to hear from our resident contrarians on this point: of those still standing, whose character, as revealed by their approach to overcoming the obstacle of a Trump reelection, is most worthy of the Presidency?
Or does it matter? Is the "appropriate" measure of character simply "willingness to do that which works"? If that's the case, how would the winning candidate be different from Trump, character-wise, since the Left's contention is that Trump has no guiding principles and simply acts in his own interest at all times?
(I anticipate this: "Trump acts in his own selfish interest. These Democratic candidates may be using a standard of"by any means necessary," but they are acting in the public interest." To which I reply, results matter.)
"Warren and Klobuchar - Ginger or Mary Ann?"
Warren is the Professor.
Klobuchar is Mary Ann.
Ginger was lost on the trip to the island. Ironically, her name was Marianne.
"What does it mean that we — or at least me and the New York Times — have drifted into fantasies about what TV show this feels like?"
It shows that our politics has become as tawdry, coarse, and false as "reality tv," with the players all as crude, boorish, and cartoonish as any "Real Wife" or "Jersey Shore" grotesquerie.
@daskol
I wrote my last comment before seeing that you knew the answer. Thanks for getting it!!
Half-right, Professor: Buttigieg was MaryAnn, as tommy said.
I think it's funny that in this new version, the Professor will not be able to build useful devices.
But who's the skipper, and how are we getting off the island?
Wasnt the West Wing Hollywood's attempt to show how reasonable and concerned and enlightened their president would be in contrast to that Texas, know-nuthin', George W Bush?
POTUS was supposed to be a minor character and Rob Lowe one of the leads, but power is the great aphrodisiac in Washington and Hollywood.
I've never watched "The West Wing," and I never saw "A Few Good Men."
Dear Prof. A: with great sadness I throw the grammar flag: “me” should be “I” in this passage: “What does it mean that we — or at least me and the New York Times — have drifted into fantasies...”
Oh no, it's Bernie.
No, this is 2020. Pete was Ginger.
it's more like feral survivor, tulsi is a more exotic Marianne, the skipper was genial, sanders is more like a guest star mad scientist, a new York version of Vincent price,
supernova or event horizon,
The Skipper was genial until he wasn't--temper, temper.
MaryAnn was always crushing hard on the Professor, and that makes me wonder: while Buttigieg went after Sanders for tone, he never said much bad about Warren. Warren's vision and Buttigieg's visions, I don't think, are far apart. Mayor Pete was just better at the Gramscian game, where you never, ever give it away. And MaryAnn was virtuous too.
colonel Jessup, had the point, in order to ensure good order and discipline, measures had to be taken, caffee had the easy task, no consequences for his actions,
Marianne is good as Ginger, so dreamy.
Ann Althouse said...
I've never watched "The West Wing," and I never saw "A Few Good Men."
Other than the tired trope of the brash young hot shot who plays by his own rules, A Few Good Men was a great movie--that "You Can't Handle the Truth" deserves it's place in our cultural milieu. Under-appreciated is how blithely the Cruise character dismissed it. He didn't care that Col. Jessup was right. (Though, now that I write that, it's also telling that everyone who saw the movie knows immediately who Col. Jessup is but I doubt 1 in 5 could tell you the name of the Cruise character.)
he was apparently based on david Iglesias, the prosecutor that wouldn't indict Richardson,
Great is strong, but it's a good drama and way more watchable than West Wing. My parents were really into that, and I tried several times to watch it so we could talk TV like the old days, LA Law, St. Elsewhere and Quincy were the family favorites, but that show fucking sucked.
The Skipper was genial until he wasn't--temper, temper.
Hale was cast, at least in part, because they needed someone who could "hit" Gilligan without seeming mean.
I wonder if my kids would enjoy Gilligan's Island. Experiment time.
As I recall, there was a "dream" episode where Gilligan was a dictator, and the rest of the cast were political rivals or underlings. (Ginger was a slinky spy..)
Kids still love Gilligan. Whenever my neices are down, that's what they want.
Unknown, I think that's more or less how a lot of people feel about Crazy Uncle Bernie. Seems angry to me, but righteous with indignation and caring, even genial, seems to be how his supporters feel about him.
Warren is the parrot.
it's more like Seinfeld, a bunch of unlikeable people, absorbed in their own problems,
AA: "I think it's funny that in this new version, the Professor will not be able to build useful devices."
That's why Warren can't be the Professor. For the Dems, there is no Professor to build a useful device to get them out of their mess.
(Unless you count Bloomberg. He at least has an EE degree.)
Has Sorkin written anything really good since A Few Good Men? To my memory West Wing was full of the cliche fantasy version of Clinton’s politics that suffused Sorkin’s work, very much like the current commercial where Martin Sheen goes on a rant over drug pricing. That advertisement is a bite sized Sorkinism. He’s never written a more than 2-dimensional Conservative character in his career, including “that speech” Nicholson performs in Few, which only feels 3-dimensional because the acting is good. He’s actually a cartoon cutout with great animation.
The current D primary seems Sorkinish because the competitors mostly mouth platitudes, refer to Trump and the R candidates/party in simplistic terms (“an economy that only works for the 1%”) that mimic the style of Sorkin, shallow and very dependent on a “we are good and they are bad” subtext to everything. Maybe Sorkin did write their scripts.
on to more serious matters
The audience already feels the narrative. It's what soap opera is about. A world to live in is offered, and clicks result. Business model.
I agree with henry. The Gong Show is a more accurate depiction of the Dem race.
it's more cartoonish like the American president, who Sorkin admitted he did under the influence of cocaine, dreyfus could play Schiff,
My theory is the West Wing sowed the seeds for the incredible divide in the country. Fans of the show believed there would never be another Repub president because an oh so smart Dem would win and win and win.
Then Goerge Bush was elected in a nail biter and the Dem freakout began. It took a few years off after 911 and settled down during Obama's terms but fired back up after 2016 election. It's like the Cicadas but it comes out during the day too.
That is my theory and I'm sticking to it. So fuck you thanks a lot to the huge pussy liberal hack Sorkin.
A Few Good Men has the best blow job quote
You know, it just hit me. She outranks you, Danny.
-Yes, sir.
I want to tell you something. And listen up, because I mean this. You're the luckiest man in the world. There is nothing on this earth sexier - believe me, gentlemen - than a woman you have to salute in the morning. Promote them all, I say, because this is true. If you haven't gotten a blowjob from a superior officer, well you're just letting the best in life pass you by. My problem is I'm a colonel, so I'll just have to take cold showers until they elect some gal president.
no they had already caricatured w at that time, that's why they set their sights on Obama
I'm reminded of the other Sherwood Schwartz TV show that was a companion to Gilligan (they shared the same props, etc.)
It's About Time.
Two Gemini astronauts go back in time and encounter a bunch of cavemen and dinosaurs.
Democrats as Gilligan's Island. Plot twist. The three most powerful on the island (or who think they are powerful) really don't want to get off of the island but instead fight to the death to see who will be KING or Queen of the island.
Biden as the Skipper. Bloomberg as Mr. Howell. Sanders as the Mad Socialist Scientist. Buttigeig can be Gilligan, who does nothing useful anyway.
Doing everything they can to scuttle the plans of the rest of the hapless castaways and to sabotage the plans of the others who just want to get away from the crazy old coots and have a decent shower and a Mai Tai.
The Skipper means well thinking that he is a benevolent dictator, but in reality is so incompetent AND is the reason that they are stranded there in the first place. Can't run a ship. Can't build a raft. CAN drink and tell stupid old stories to bore everyone to death. As eyes glaze over, death does become a topic of interest.
Mr. Howell is delusional and thinks that his money which he doesn't have anymore since he is on a desert island (DUH) is going to be able to bribe everyone to making him King. Sorry, but those old coconuts aren't really a lure. So instead he tries to appropriate all the remaining good stuff to himself. There is a plot to kill him.
The Mad Professor decides that he also knows best and begins to tell everyone that they will all have to pool their resources from those who can to those who need. As a result everyone else hates the Professor and no one wants to work on the behalf of those other lazy fucks. Because of that, they are beginning to starve and there is now a shortage of sand. Of course, the Professor being the smartest one, should naturally have the best hut on the island ....oh....and don't look at that giant pile of coconuts and bananas in the back.
4 years later....a rescue ship arrives. They are all dead.
"Ironically, her name was Marianne."
That would work. My dog and I discussed the matter on our morning walk, and we decided that Trump would be the witch doctor who came to the Island, made dolls of everyone and made them do crazy things.
I thought that The West Wing was a thoughtful show, to a certain limit. I thought it explored the left-plausible-centrist v. progressive left divide pretty well. Conservatives, at best, were portrayed as wily adversaries. As I mentioned above, the show's ultimate failure was that it couldn't imagine an orderly transition of power.
Additional plot twist...4 years later....a rescue ship arrives. They are all dead.
All dead except Ginger and Mary Ann who decided the hell with the rest of them and with Mrs. Howell, the old dingy bat who only says yes dear to Mr. Howell and does nothing useful either.
Moving to the other side of the island Maryann and Ginger have built a nice little hut, created a small garden area, harvesting only what they need, discovered that they are surrounded by fish in the sea (DUH again). They are discovered by the rescuers who immediately take the poor women to the next island over which is an all inclusive Sandals Resort and they finally get their Mai Tais and a shower.
Ooooh there is a hot tub too!!!
My favorite episode: Professor informs them the island is sinking because a stick he's planted in the bay, to monitor the water level, keeps sinking. Panic ensues. Turns out Gilligan was moving the stick (for some forgotten reason.)
Just like the climate change hoax.
It's about time
It's about space
It's about time to slap your face.
(From the playground)
Biden is Gilligan but thinks he's the Professor.
Gilligan regresses to his previous existence as Maynard G. Krebs.
Oh, I almost forgot... Ginger
"MikeR, Warren is the Professor."
Indeed. And Biden is Lovey.
"(for some forgotten reason.)"
Gilligan was using the stick to secure his lobster trap, and he had to put the trap way out there to catch the really big ones.
You want me on that wall!
All wrong, all of it.
There are two Bobs.
Bill Murray in What About Bob is Trump to decent folks. To proggies, Trump is Bob from Twin Peaks, aka Satan.
Hey, Bill Kristol fits too! He's the guy who told them it was safe to go out in that storm.
I've only seen a couple episodes of "Gilligan's Island." Why didn't I watch it at the time? Was it just that I loved Bob Denver as Maynard and didn't want to see him reduced to the "good buddy" of the aging Captain? It certainly wasn't that I didn't watch TV in those years. I had to look up what it conflicted with in the schedule. In 1965–66, it conflicted with "Gidget"! Of course, I watched "Gidget"! "Gidget" was about a teenage girl who went to the beach and had age-appropriate boyfriends. "Gilligan's Island" was all older people. They were at the beach, but there were playmates for older men and a really old couple. Clearly a show for older people and their sexual fantasies. "Gidget" was more like "Dobie Gillis" — about teenagers.
In 1966–67, "Gilligan" conflicted with "The Monkees"! Of course, I watched "The Monkees"! No contest.
The series premiere episode of Gilligan's Island was on MeTV yesterday. Don't recall watching it before -'twas interesting seeing how the news on the radio described each of the cast-a-ways.
It explained why Ginger was in a nightgown (she had got on the boat right after leaving a performance at a club, which, now that I think about it is kinda weird. Did the Minnow leave in the wee early morning or did Ginger sing&perform until well after the sun was up?) but didn't notice any reason for why the Howells had so much of their luggage with 'em for a three hour cruise.
I guess I could have watched "Gilligan's Island" in its first season, 1964–65. I didn't watch the other shows that were on at the same time — "Lawrence Welk," "Kentucky Jones," and "Mr. Magoo." But it was Saturday night at 8:30. Maybe I had something better to do than watch TV.
What was "Kentucky Jones"? It doesn't even have a Wikipedia page.
"What was 'Kentucky Jones'? It doesn't even have a Wikipedia page."
According to IMDB, it was a show about a veterinarian, starring Dennis Weaver, ("Chester," from GUNSMOKE). It aired in 1964-1965.
The first season was black and white, although I think they colorized it for re-runs that I saw in the early 80s.
While writing this post, I watched the last 8 minutes of the last episode of "Gilligan's Island," which I'd never seen. I thought knowing how the story ended could provide some insight into who would be the Democratic nominee.
I figured the show must have ended with the characters getting off the island, so I was surprised that their plane ride got them right back on the island... and all because the Professor's inventiveness wasn't enough to overcome the bumbling stupidity of Gilligan and the charitable heart of, really, everybody.
Maybe that means Trump will win.
But I looked up why that was the ending, and I saw that was only the last episode of a season and it was written when they were not planning for what happened: cancellation.
Here's that last 8 minutes.
" I didn't watch the other shows that were on at the same time — "Lawrence Welk," "Kentucky Jones," and "Mr. Magoo.""
Mr. Magoo, a cartoon, was voiced by Jim Backus, who played the millionaire on "Gilligan's Island."
Mr. Magoo was on only for that one season, and it was also the first season of "Gilligan." Weird for Jim Backus to be competing against himself.
We certainly found his style of speaking funny — I remember.
In that last episode of "Gilligan," the characters have finally found a way to get off the island. They've found a plane, and the Professor gets it working, but it will only work long enough for one flight. Gilligan falls out of the plane, but he's got a parachute and they see it open and land on the island, so they have a decision to make: Go on with their escape or land the plane on the island to be with Gilligan. They choose the latter, and I felt touched by their love for Gilligan. But later, I had to think: Keep going, rescue yourself, then organize a rescue party to go back for Gilligan. That's not how fiction works though.
Jim Backus had a previous existence on I Married Joan (1952-1955), a really lame domestic sitcom.
The Democrat Primary as Gilligan's Island is morphing into a nightmare version, where Mary Ann, the Professor and Ginger have disappeared and it's a Survivor battle between Biden as Gilligan, Thurston Bloomberg and Bernie as the Skipper. We can only pray that no nudity is involved.
they did a movie about 13 years later, when they were rescued,
I heard a Steyer commercial while driving to work. Zombie candidate.
In that last episode of "Gilligan," the characters have finally found a way to get off the island.
All due respect - but that wasn't actually the last episode but rather a made-for-TV movie that came out over 30 years after the series was cancelled.
Final episode (which I also happened to catch on MeTV yesterday) was "Gilligan the Goddess". There was nothing unusual about it (some tribe members from a nearby island visit the castaways & high-jinxs occur) with no final ending/resolution 'cause they didn't know at the time their show was gonna not going to be renewed.
The series premiere episode of Gilligan's Island was on MeTV yesterday. Don't recall watching it before -'twas interesting seeing how the news on the radio described each of the cast-a-ways.
Even more interesting to see the unaired "pilot" epsode from the DVD box set. For a show that was so absolutely perfectly cast -- it nearly wasn't.
Wouldn't you have been too old for Gilligan? It was really aimed at 8-12 years olds.
Professor = Warren
Skipper = Biden
Mr Howell = Bloomberg
Mary Ann = Klochblob
Gilligan = Bernie
*over 10 years later, not 30.
Gilligan & The Skipper also had fun cameos in the last Frankie & Annette movie, Back To The Beach.
Mr and Mrs Howell were my favorite characters when i saw the show as a kid. I was supposed to identify with Gilligan, but even then I was attracted to money and the stock market.
I heard a Steyer commercial while driving to work. Zombie candidate.
He always was. He only recently realized it.
Mr. Magoo just won South Carolina
Warren is the Professor... I think it's funny that in this new version, the Professor will not be able to build useful devices.
According to Warren, he didn't build them anyhow.
I'm not nearly Boomer enough to discuss the merits of Gilligan's Island, but let's talk about Aaron Sorkin. He's actually quite good at developing a character and finding obstacles for them to overcome. The obnoxious thing about him, though, is that he's not actually creative enough to find intelligent ways to overcome the reasonably sized obstacles in the paths of his heroes. To be fair, that style of "plot development" has infected movies and TV shows at all levels, making character arcs almost divorced from the plots they're attached to, and often rendering the plot irrelevant or nonsensical. Colonel Jessup runs rings around Lieutenant Kaffee for most of AFGM, and only loses because he decides that a courtroom is the perfect place for his villainous monologue. Kaffee should have ended that movie being court-martialed, if it was even slightly realistic. Santos absolutely should have lost the election in TWW, even to an atheist Republican who was chuckservative enough to make Mitt Romney look like Pepe, and only won because Sorkin handed the victory to Santos via writer fiat. And that's the problem with most of Aaron Sorkin's work. In general, his heroes are only strong because the author has given them a big idealistic (often liberal) script that leads them to triumph over the forces of ignorance. Trump is the ultimate punch in the face to that liberal idealism, in the way that ASOIAF changed the way we think about fantasy, because he removed the safety net of scripts and exposed liberals to the cold air of reality.
There is the possibility of writing morally and intellectually upright liberals trying to advance the American nation: the problem is that open borders, abortion on demand, drag queen storytime and free trade are invariably lethal to the American nation. These priorities have to be hidden if liberals want to sneak their agenda to the people. Sorkin can't write patriotic liberals without severing their connection to modern Democrat priorities, and he can't write propaganda welcoming a flood of refugees without looking like a Hollywood hack who hasn't been in touch with the national mood for decades. It doesn't matter if his fellow screenwriters are JRR Tolkien and Quentin Tarantino. You'd need the Lord Jesus Christ to square that circle.
"It was really aimed at 8-12 years olds."
I don't think so. You didn't aim billionaire industrialiasts, their socialite wives, and horny B-movie actresses at children in that era. Many of the show's of that era, both cartoons like Bullwinkle and escapist sitcoms were moving on multiple levels for different audiences.
I've only today begun to see advertisements for Senator Sanders on YouTube. How can anything that has happened in the last 24 hours have provoked that? Oregon is having its primary election in May.
What does it mean that we — or at least me and the New York Times — have drifted into fantasies about what TV show this feels like?
The short answer is, very little good. But a good for me personally since I peer at such things via Althouse's (and a few other people's) labors.
I saw yesterday that BuzzFeed's Ben Smith has been absorbed by the behemoth.
The Times has become like Facebook or Google-- a digital behemoth crowding out the competition.
"I've only seen a couple episodes of "Gilligan's Island.""
If you haven't seen it, cultural literacy requires a viewing of "The Producer," where a Broadway impresario visits the Island and the castaways mount a musical version of Hamlet.
Now that I think about it, I wonder of the "Hamlet" sequence in The Cowboy Wally Show is a semi-homage. Very funny in its own right, of course.
I don't recall the name of the piece, but there is some famous classical work used as the music for "to be or not to be". I cannot hear it - and it gets time on classical stations - without thinking of that episode.
Well, other-Unknown, I think I recall that the "Neither a borrower nor a lender be" segment was done to "Toreador" from "Carmen".
"the music for "to be or not to be"."
It's "The Habanera" or "L'amour est un oiseau rebelle," also from Carmen
The play also uses "The Barcarolle," from Offenbach's "Tales of Hoffman."
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