I wrote, over on Facebook, in a discussion thread started by my son John, who linked to an NBC story, "Girls sue to block participation of transgender athletes/The families of three female high school runners filed a federal suit seeking to block trans athletes in Connecticut from participating in girls sports."
One of the participants in the discussion pointed to his own essay, "The Discriminatory Costs of Preserving Women’s-Only Sports." Excerpt:
The past half century will be looked back on as the golden era of women's sport, where segregated categories gave women a chance to compete on a playing field that excludes men, transgender people and intersex people.... Eliminating gender restrictions would make sport... would have a crushing effect on women athletes, especially those who currently compete to earn a salary or a scholarship. In a gender-free meritocracy, almost every scholarship would go to men.... “Traditional” womens-only sport is at a confounding impasse: eliminate the restrictions to compete in an act of “inclusion as highest value” OR accept the necessity of discrimination in an attempt to protect the status quo.I remember the pre-Title IX days. I never considered participating in any sport or regarded any female athlete as an inspiration. My friends didn't do competitive sports. We hated gym class, and we were only interested in doing some simple calisthenics for the purpose of looking good. The gym teachers seemed to regard us as a worthless bunch, and I think they were vaguely amused, not terribly upset with our lack of competitive spirit.
Today, the pressure to be empathetic toward transgenders is so great that I believe women, known for our empathy and our desire to appear compassionate, will let go of competitive sports and return to the inclinations that dominated back in the days when I went to high school. It's a trade-off, a trade-off between the potential for athletic victory and the feeling of being kind and inclusive. The latter is something quite valuable and within the reach of all women. The former is a dream, and it's only a dream for an elite few among women.
UPDATE: More discussion here.
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327 comments:
1 – 200 of 327 Newer› Newest»My middle daughter, when she was at UCLA, was thinking about an intramural sport as she is athletic and wanted to work out.
She decided to go to a women's rugby practice to see what it was all about. What it was about was lesbians of the cartoon sort. She quickly decided it was not for her but it took a year before she could get away from the calls and visits.
I wonder what percentage of women's sports enthusiasts are "gay?" Gays and Trans are headed for conflict over who is the biggest victim.
Tolerance is not enough, as we have seen for the past ten years,
It seems like women have had a quick decade or two of finally getting credit for how hard pregnancy and delivery is,, how challenging being a great mother is, and how amazing we can be physically when given a chance to compete on our own terms. But for whatever reason, women have to be pushed to the side again for men who see themselves as women.
We could be empathetic and kind by getting to the heart of what makes some people think they are another gender and what they hope to feel by changing their looks and their body.
That would be kind and empathetic as well, but it is actually seen as hateful and bigoted.
Should we do away with weight classes in boxing, wrestling and MMA?
What about the Special Olympics? Get rid of it?
So, when men reidentify as women for getting benefits set aside for women specifically, you won't have a problem with that either? Women, being empathic will just step aside.
But what about nude shower scenes?
Althouse said...
The gym teachers seemed to regard us as a worthless bunch, but they seemed amused enough.
It's a trade-off, a trade-off between the potential for athletic victory and the feeling of being kind and inclusive. The latter is something quite valuable and within the reach of all women. The former is a dream, and it's only a dream for an elite few among women.
Repeal the 19th.
Candice Wiggins went public with the bullying culture prevalent in the WNBA, but since the bullies were mostly black lesbos, Wiggins ended up being attacked for it.
"But for whatever reason, women have to be pushed to the side..."
I think women will step aside. I wouldn't say push. An argument is being made to woman: Won't you please kindly step aside? And women are saying: Oh, of course, let me get out of your way.
"But what about nude shower scenes?"
At my high school, there were showers and a threat of being made to take a shower, but never once were we told to take a shower. Every single class, we'd run out of time.
But the story seems to contradict the prediction, doesn't it? The girls are starting to sue.
So..... I can’t be competitive as hell and want to win for my team and still have empathy?
What kind of stupid horsesh*t is that?
That’s as stupid as people saying women won’t vote for Trump because he’s too crude.
I call BS on that, too!
For years we’ve been teaching women they can do anything, be anything but when it comes to supposedly being “mean” to transgender people we’re supposed to be the group that gives away everything we have worked for.
What a screwed up world we live in.
It's a trade-off, a trade-off between the potential for athletic victory and the feeling of being kind and inclusive.
It's unkind to, and exclusive of, actual women in general, in order to appear "kind and inclusive" to a very small minority of men with mental problems.
Why not be "kind and inclusive" in that manner to any man, and not just mentally ill men? IOW, let any man compete in women's sports events.
Besides, it's not actually "kind" to a man to let a man beat women in athletics, it's silly and embarrassing.
If it's all about how people see themselves, why not let dumb people who think they're smart become professors?. Oh, wait...
Your point of view is lamentable, Ann. Just because you were not a participant in girls' sports doesn't mean that those who have trained hard to be the best in their field should roll over so a transgender can take the lead. A thousand lashes with a wet noodle, as Ann Landers used to say. Boo! Hiss!
I think women will step aside. I wouldn't say push. An argument is being made to woman: Won't you please kindly step aside? And women are saying: Oh, of course, let me get out of your way.
coerced aside, then.
But then....if that's what women will do, doesn't that prove that the trans competitors are not women? If they were women, they would step aside to be nice to the women who still want to compete against biological women.
Both of my daughter's were athletes, with one going to college on a scholarship.
Aside from the financial benefits, both girls learned important life lessons. They learned to strive for excellence, work hard for a goal, organize their time, and deal with occasional setbacks, along with a long list of other things. They are both better for having had that experience.
I hope my young granddaughter has the same opportunity.
The problem is simply that men are better than women at everything. Whether sports or any other endeavor. Oh sure, you can point to the occasional anomaly hyped by radicals but in the real world the one and only thing women are better at is having babies. And , from what is occasionally reported,science will soon allow men to compete in that arena.
One such anomaly is a woman blogger who does it alone and has never missed a day. No doubt some guy slightly behind waiting for her to stumble. Maybe on a trip to an area with no internet access.
What an utterly insane time in human history.
Ridiculous
This tyranny of a tiny mentally ill minority shall end and people 50 years from now will be saying wtf.
Yeah, not viable. Trans/neo females are irreconcilable. However, the same problem does not exist with trans/homos, trans/bis, who are limited to mental divergence, and trans/neo males, who retain their female physiology. So, the solution is not one, not two, but the fifth choice. Sure, why not, not.
If girls realize that they aren't exactly like boys and cannot pursue what was previously seen as "boy things" like sports, what consequences follow? Where do girls go to achieve? Especially girls who are not interested in academics?
Ridiculous
This tyranny of a tiny mentally ill minority shall end and people 50 years from now will be saying wtf.
Too bad the boomers will not be around to see someone else get blamed for the insanity.
The girls in my high school never took showers after gym class. The girls locker room had nice plush cotton towels.
The boy's shower was barely usable. We had PAPER towels, big 3'x 4' sheets of paper. We were given 2 sheets each.
We left the locker room still quite moist.
maybe so
“The best way to get a bad law repealed is to enforce it strictly.” ― Abraham Lincoln
,,,so you go, "girls" !!
Pretty simple. Men's women's trans classifications. Should take the people in charge less than a decade to realize.
Of course, then the problem is women transitioning to men disadvantaged but I am sure it can be figured out.
Ugh.
Stupidest article you ever wrote.
A world of no.
What an utterly insane time in human history.
That's what I think too.
This is total and complete insanity. Also no surprise that this started in Connecticut.
I coached both boys and girls in grade school basketball. No way the girls could keep up with the boys. I saw a good Creighton women’s basketball team scrimmage against some average boy intramural players. The boys were better. Taller, faster and much stronger.
Note how that essay uses the words “segregation” and “discrimination.” The Left wants to use that race language and equate trannys with Blacks. Trannys were born with one sex and have chosen to become another sex. You can’t switch races.
Watching my daughters and their friends play sports I saw what a good thing it was for young women. Watching my youngest achieve a personal best at the state swim meet was a thrill.
High school and college athletics for women is one of the best things of modern life. I’m convinced that if women had athletic opportunities in Muslim countries, they’d have fewer problems.
Some requests are pushes. This is a push.
My cousin went to college on a basketball scholarship. There she was harassed, stalked and intimidated because she wasn’t a lesbian. So much so she had to transfer schools. When her new school played her previous team she had to be kept off the court. Woman are so kind. So caring. .
And how many transsexuals are there in high school? Ten per million?
Gays and Trans
Trans/homos already have purity tests, and have excluded trans/neos, and trans/bis, from participation. The transgender spectrum ("Rainbow") is a dull empathetic symbol. A archaic totem and celebration of political congruence ("=") under the Pro-Choice, selective, opportunistic religion.
More hogwash.
Women have fought too long to let this go. But those idiots deserve what they get which is nothing.
So what’s the point of the ERA?
Jerry Fled is absolutely right.
One of my sisters is featured in the book, The Red Rose Crew. This book is partly about how Title 9 helped them.
Summary:
".In 1975, a group of amazing women rowed their way to international success and glory, battling sexual prejudice, bureaucracy, and male domination in one of the most grueling and competitive sports around. Among the members of the first international women’s crew team--and one of the first women’s teams anywhere--were Gail Pearson, the soft-spoken MIT professor who fought equally hard off the water to win the political battles neccessary for her team to succeed; lead rower Carie Graves, a statuesque bohemian from rural Wisconsin who dropped out of college and later became the most intense rower of the crew; and Lynn Stillman, a tiny sixteen-year-old coxswain from California.
On hand to guide them was Harry Parker, the legendary Harvard men’s crew coach who overcame his doubts about the ability of women to withstand the rigors of hard training. From their first dramatic bid at the 1975 World Championships to their preparations for their first Olympic Games in 1976, this gripping story of bravery, determination, and indomitable spirit captures a compelling moment in the history of sports and of America."
Carie's team at the UW-Wisconsin ran bake sales in the early years to finance their trips to regattas.
Thus is why women don’t get ahead.
Being popular is more important.
It’s biological. Accept it.
And we're not just talking about basketball or even track and field. There is tennis. And golf. Skiing. Skating. Letting males compete in female sports is ludicrous and I don't care how they 'identify'. Maybe the Summer Olympics in Tokyo will be cancelled because of the coronavirus--God's condemnation? [kidding]
I think women will step aside. I wouldn't say push. An argument is being made to woman: Won't you please kindly step aside? And women are saying: Oh, of course, let me get out of your way.
So why are women willing to step aside for men who are pretending to be women, but won't step aside for men who aren't pretending to be women?
May Bee has the best point. If the trans are truly women, why not let them step aside for others and feel better about themselves?
Watching my daughters and their friends play sports I saw what a good thing it was for young women. Watching my youngest achieve a personal best at the state swim meet was a thrill.
I have two grand daughters who are into sports and both are beautiful and normal. Naturally their parents hope fo a college scholarship. Probably a better chance than my grandson even though he plays two varsity sports in high school. He wants to go to a military academy but the local Congress people are now Democrats.
One thing that Title IX did. It destroyed men's minor sports like wrestling and crew.
The moderator's superior intelligence is belied by falling for such complete nonsense.
I’ll never forget one basketball practice in grade school. One girl tripped and fell in the lane. The girls all tried to help her get up and were apologetic. I laughed. I told the girls that’s not how the game is played; especially regarding the opposing team. They learned and became aggressive and tough players.
We may belong to OCC
But we’ve got grit and pepability
We’re rough
We’re tough
We’re debutantes!
My second favorite sports documentary is “Dare to Dream” . The story of the US Women’s Soccer Team is funny, heartwarming and from a different time. Sad that we are losing it.
BTW it’s on YouTube.
Bob Boyd said...
Should we do away with weight classes in boxing, wrestling and MMA?
What about the Special Olympics? Get rid of it?
******************
Any day now, I expect a tranny to announce that he/she ALSO identifies as "special", and is thus eligible to compete in the Special Olympics.
You can take that to the bank.
Ann Althouse said...
>>It's a trade-off, a trade-off between the potential for athletic victory and the feeling of being kind and inclusive. The latter is something quite valuable and within the reach of all women. The former is a dream, and it's only a dream for an elite few among women.<<
Nonsense. Athletic victory is the dream of *all* who participate in athletics. The attainment of it is no more limited for female athletes than it is for male athletes. It is no more within the reach of males than it is of females. You win some, you lose some. The participation in athletics is valuable for all athletes, male and female.
You want value and inclusiveness, do you? Here's something that is quite valuable, in my (male) opinion: The inclusion of women (the real kind) in the opportunity to participate in athletics. Fairly-structured athletics, that is.
Could women be moving back to their more traditional roles?
Title IX scholarships got a lot of women through college and into careers. I have heard quite a few rumblings that you can't have it all; children and a high stress career.
People are finally beginning to admit that women earn less because they don't have the time or drive if they want marriage and children, rather than the conventional wisdom that men make more because they are men.
Perhaps a dawn is arising.
Althouse is being sweet and sensitive here, but ignores the women who want compete hard, but not against physical men, posing as women.
Example: one my kids is dating a lovely young woman who rows crew, and is going to an Ivy League school to row this Fall. She takes it seriously and competes hard, but has enough common sense to not want to compete against a 200 lb guy in a wig.
"May Bee has the best point. If the trans are truly women, why not let them step aside for others and feel better about themselves?"
Haha! Good one.
This will end with no high school or college sports. No more athletic inequality.
I always felt I wanted my daughters to get the character-building that comes with sports. It is so valuable to learn how to do your very best and to win and lose with grace.
I do not want to see anyone deprived of that opportunity.
It's never been easier for beings of any chromosome configuration to incorporate being a life-long athlete with multiple other roles; you can be a great parent, have a great career, and still participate in myriad sports at a high level.
Ann, you will see 3800 people of all shapes and sizes toe the line at Ironman Wisconsin this fall. Some of the most inspirational stories come from the people at the back of the pack who overcome whatever challenges they face to have a victory over themself. Nothing more heart-pulling than an Ironman finish line after 11pm.
Just change sports to XX and XY and that will solve it. Nobody is deprived and everyone is welcome to compete. But that is the fair scaling to have a true contest.
For those serious enough to want to play sports in college or as a semi-pro or pro, it will be a disaster to lose the benefits of character-building just to be empathetic. Be empathetic by letting people compete XX and XY on a level playing field.
Being empathetic will kill XX sports. And that would be a damn shame.
"...the feeling of being kind and inclusive. The latter is something quite valuable and within the reach of all women.
Unlike the other commenters, I assumed that you're being ironical here.
At least, I hope I'm not projecting, and you haven't gone completely off the deep end.
No no no! The athletic dream does not belong only to women who are competitive athletes but to all women. Millions of girls participate in running, gymnastics, volleyball, basketball, and other sports, and almost all know they are not champions, but they look up to and idolize the women who are champions.
Replace those women champions with hypercompetitive biological males, some of whom are trans and some of whom are faking, and the whole pyramid collapses. This is a disaster for women. Is it left only to conservative middle-aged white men like me to care about women and their aspirations?
I can't wait for it to hit women's tennis. There's big money in women's tennis. I can definitely see a highly competitive white man going transgender. You can make a lot of money and you go from the bottom of the victim pile to the top of the victim pile. And you don't have to cut it off but you will have to chemically castrate yourself
Hold on a dang second. Could Althouse be messin' with us here?
Would be just like a woman..
Just a reminder:
The best women's soccer team in the world got routed by a Dallas-area Boys U-15 team.
“Traditional” womens-only sport is at a confounding impasse: eliminate the restrictions to compete in an act of “inclusion as highest value” OR accept the necessity of discrimination in an attempt to protect the status quo.
Aristotle tells us that it is an unjust to treat different things as if they were the same. Or, to put in the essay quoted above, it is discriminatory to treat different things as if they were the same and an of justice when we treat different people according to their own unique abilities.
Thankfully we have not had this craziness down here but I worry for my granddaughter who just turned 16. She is a SERIOUS volleyball player. She is on 2 teams in 2 statewide leagues. One of the was 1st in the state last year and she won a most valuable player award.
She works here ass off at it. She only regrets that she has one ass to work off! (She is also straight A in a rigorous school) Letting these crazy boys, assuming they really do believe they are girls or grifters, if they are just in it to be able to be competitive play is a kick in the face to all girls like her.
It really, really REALLY pisses me off. Fuck these lunatics.
John Henry
Ann Althouse said...
>>It's a trade-off, a trade-off between the potential for athletic victory and the feeling of being kind and inclusive. The latter is something quite valuable and within the reach of all women. The former is a dream, and it's only a dream for an elite few among women.<<
***************
Althouse, IIRC you had to pass a bar exam to become a lawyer, and you certainly had to compete to get your gig as a law prof. Both mark you as a member of an elite, doncha think?
Would you think it a good idea to let anyone hold themselves out as a lawyer, in order to be "kind and inclusive"?
I frickin' doubt it.
Why shouldn't Amy Klobuchar just get out of the way for one of the males who identify as Presidential material?
"Is it left only to conservative middle-aged white men like me to care about women and their aspirations?"
No, you have conservative OLD white men like me to join you.
And btw, a lot of girls and women like to participate in all kinds of sports, for recreation, not because they dream of competing at elite levels. They're not interested in playing with or against men with a weird fetish, either.
When you think it through, females should step aside for a trans on the sidewalk. And not make eye contact.
I still can't believe this is happening. It's insane. I hope women don't accept being treated this way.
Blogger whitney said...
I can't wait for it to hit women's tennis. There's big money in women's tennis. I can definitely see a highly competitive white man going transgender.
You mean like Richard Raskind?
A/K/A Renee Richards?
John Henry
This is Vonnegut's "Harrison Bergeron" in reverse: the ballerinas have to wear the weights on their ankles so that the emotionally disturbed man gets to jump higher.
Sheer madness.
Blogger wholelottasplainin' said...
Would you think it a good idea to let anyone hold themselves out as a lawyer, in order to be "kind and inclusive"?
You mean sort of like a "direct commission" officer? Get the bars and rank but never have to take place in those icky marching, sleeping on the ground, eating MRE sorts of things that normal military officers do?
Like Mayor Peter.
Oh, wait. Am I allowed to criticize him? Can I say that without being a homophobe?
John Henry
If women drop out, women's sports will end, and the trans losers would have no way to compete except with men, where they can't win.
“You are but a female.” — Mohammed Atta
Bobby Riggs had the right idea - it's a humor thing, not a competition thing.
I’m wondering how professional women chess players will respond.
In addition to why there is biological segregation in competitive chess.
Yes, I think she's messing with us. God, I hope so.
An argument is being made to woman: Won't you please kindly step aside? And women are saying: Oh, of course, let me get out of your way.
A hypothesis not supported by the fact that a lawsuit exists.
In the hope of staying positive, no comment.
Just no comment.
It is not kind or inclusive to deny physical reality. No one should be persecuted because of differences and reasonable accommodation should be made, but generally speaking "the greatest good for the greatest number" should prevail.
Chess is like math. Men can work at it obsessively without feeling a loss of social life. So they turn out better at it, at the top end.
Leland
A few resist. They are perhaps in the immortal words of LeBron James “uneducated” on this issue. Instruction will follow shortly.
I want to compete in Special Jeopardy (whenever the Circuit Court forces it to come into being) because I identify as mentally retarded.
That's not a comment, it's an aspiration.
Martina Navratilova got in hot water for her views on transgenders in womens tennis. She's against it.
The Bridge (Swedish/Danish version) has an asperger's woman detective, who doesn't have empathy but still reasons sideways like a woman, instead of depthwise like a man.
James Carville has summed it up best "Have we lost our damned minds?!?" Young men shouldn't compete in sports with young girls. It's not an even matchup. Why are we pretending otherwise? Stupidity on stilts.
Wince said: "But what about nude shower scenes?"
That was why they were "amused enough".
Successful female athletes tend towards a body type that appeals only to... certain tastes.
I'm having a hard time not commenting on this, but I'm going to keep trying.
"At least, I hope I'm not projecting, and you haven't gone completely off the deep end."
You have to remember that Althouse has a soft spot in her hea -- uh -- her heart for people who -- uh -- oh, never mind.
Would you think it a good idea to let anyone hold themselves out as a lawyer, in order to be "kind and inclusive"?
How about a nuclear engineer? We are coming to that.
Hey, it's a free country (as we used to say when I was a kid): Let the "trans" people organize their own damn leagues and fight it out amongst themselves, which seems to be where the real competition is anyway.
Oh, and while doing so kindly leave the "rest of us" alone, you know, that vast majority of humans who don't have any doubt as to what sex they are, and who pretty much accept themselves for what they are, for good or ill.
Separately: From a sufficiently detached perspective, it is interesting how so many people's lack-of-religion agonies play out in the political sphere, and how others whose self-conception conflicts play out in the sports world.
There is, I think, a significant degree of overlap in that particular Venn Diagram.
Today, the pressure to be empathetic toward transgenders is so great that I believe women, known for our empathy and our desire to appear compassionate, will let go of competitive sports and return to the inclinations that dominated back in the days when I went to high school.
I think women will step aside. I wouldn't say push. An argument is being made to woman: Won't you please kindly step aside? And women are saying: Oh, of course, let me get out of your way.
@Althouse, I surely hope you are wrong because I couldn’t possibly respect a woman who “stepped aside” for someone who got the huge boost that comes from going through puberty as a biological male. If you’re going to compete, then BY GOD COMPETE!
Althouse said...
Today, the pressure to be empathetic toward transgenders is so great that I believe women, known for our empathy and our desire to appear compassionate, will let go of competitive sports and return to the inclinations that dominated back in the days when I went to high school.
So "home ec" things like cooking, sewing, cleaning... You've come a long way, baby.
“ Your point of view is lamentable, Ann. Just because you were not a participant in girls' sports doesn't mean that those who have trained hard to be the best in their field should roll over so a transgender can take the lead. ”
Read correctly and you wouldn’t need to attack.
I said absolutely nothing about what girls should do.
I merely predicted what they will do.
There is honor in winning a competition. Why agree to give that up for an industry profiting from a sex change insanity? Fight back.
David Begley,
The late, great Florence King told a story about a girl's hs basketball game she attended. A girl playing offense made a terrible attempt to sink a 3 pointer, even though she could have easily thrown the ball to a teammate who was standing right next to the net, with nobody guarding her. The attempted 3 pointer didn't get anywhere close to the net and the other team gained possession of the ball and went on to win.
When the coach asked the girl who threw the ball why she didn't throw the ball to her teammate, the girl wrinkled her nose and said loudly "I'm not throwing the ball to HER!"
All the women I've known left competitive team sports as soon as they could and went into individual sports that would keep them thin and they could do the rest of their lives:
Riding Horses
Cross Country Skiing
Swimming and Skin Diving
Tennis
Golf
Several played Soccer in HS, but only to get a scholarship or to wait around till there was an opening on the Cheerleader squad. I've never met a single girl who played BB or soccer in HS, who followed the sport on TV.
"men, transgender people and intersex people.."
That's only one category.
Women's College Rugby is amazing. I remember watching a game and frankly throwing up a little in my mouth. It'd be the perfect sport for Transgenders.
The professor has to be trolling us. As some one commented up thread, transgenders in women's' sports will destroy those sports. And therefore there won't be any women's sports for transgenders to compete in. You'll have two or three trannies (if that many) competing against each other. And who is going to show up to watch that? Wait a minute, I know! Lets require all women to participate in competitive sports so that trannies can have somebody to beat up on! That would be kind and gentle and inclusive. Problem solved.
mockturtle @1:22 PM:
Would that all shared in your clear vision, humanity, and common sense.
Now that's something I can aspire to!
Hari said...
This will end with no high school or college sports. No more athletic inequality.
And the trees are all kept equal... By hatchet, axe, and saw....
Transgenders will have little success in Women's Ballet, ice Skating or Gymnastics. I don't see much impact on Golf either.
Progtards destroy everything they touch.
They're the King Midas of shit.
I felt the same way about hs sports as Althouse did. I liked watching boys and men play sports but I didn't have the slightest desire to emulate them.
At my all-girls hs, the gym classes we all liked the most were the ones which were not centered around playing a game like basketball or field hockey (well, OK, I did really like playing volleyball), but dancing and calisthenics. For a few months, we square danced, and although we were all too cool to admit it, it was really a lot of fun. We also learned how to waltz, fox trot, and polka. The only problem was that since there was an odd number of girls in our class, the odd girl out had to dance with a broom. A different girl was the designated broom dancer at every class so the feeling of embarrassment one had when twirling around the room with a broom was shared by all. Another problem was that the taller girls, like me, had to lead. The joke was that you could always tell who the girls from our school were when you saw them dancing at weddings - we were the ones trying to push the guys around the dance floor.
Archery was fun too.
This is likeliest the worst post I’ve seen from you Althouse. Truly awful and vile. Please reconsider.
And yes, I see you trying to cover up but what a low opinion you have of women! Toxic femininity.
"And women are saying: 'Oh, of course, let me get out of your way.' " That's what they're saying. And if you asked them if they were okay, they would say, "Fine." But inside, they are passive-aggressively seething. And will for the rest of their lives.
If women step aside, as put, to permit a fraction of a percentage of the population, a seriously disturbed fraction of the population, to fundamentally shut down women’s sports then women should be willing to revert to the treatment they received at the hands of the patriarchy lo these centuries. Because they would deserve it. On the plus side it would show their serious consideration for men. The world is barking crazy
See MayBee above on the irony of men pretending to be women. PS show me you haven’t a dick before you take the field.
The last paragraph in the post makes such an unreal read.
"...desire to appear compassionate..." It's all about appearances?
"...will let go of competitive sports..." Maybe, but if so, many will kick the phony women in their phony crotches and pout all the way home.
"...the feeling of being kind and inclusive. The latter is something quite valuable and within the reach of all women..." Except for Hillary Clinton and trans-women, who are not, after all, real women.
The projection, the extraordinary generalization here is stunning.
Lotta quit in that Althouse.
Not my fight.
This was thoroughly covered in the Babylon Bee, America's paper of record:
https://babylonbee.com/news/high-school-runner-not-feeling-great-about-her-chances-against-the-girl-with-a-beard
I said absolutely nothing about what girls should do.
I merely predicted what they will do.
OK, then, do you believe transgenders should be allowed to compete in women's sports? Well, do you?
Rcocean opines: Transgenders will have little success in Women's Ballet, ice Skating or Gymnastics. I don't see much impact on Golf either.
Really? The fact that male figure skaters are doing 4 or 5 quad jumps in a program and there's only one female skater who can do even one?
A while back someone (Insty?) proposed a solution to the 'drug crisis' in sports--let there be two leagues, the Juiced and the Nonjuiced . . . and see how long it takes for the Nonjuiced to die out, since all the records will go to the Juiced.
Sounds like a similar scenario.
There were guys--normal (more-or-less) guy guys--who didn't give much of a crap about sports, even as a break. Certainly, some of us did as little as required, just as we did in the classroom, and lived other-than-sport-focused vicarious lives.
Coaches, locker rooms, and gyms were better avoided.
Narr
Not a top scholar, athlete, or scholar-athlete, though I had gym class with some
Transgenders will have little success in Women's Ballet,
Competitive ballet? Learn something new every day.
My closest friend played soccer in college and still occasionally plays on adult teams. She doesn't fit the odd ideas many commenters seem to have about female athletes.
It's about time women in sports started pushing back on this stuff.
let's play Let's Imagine!
Let's Imagine a world, where our beloved Professor Althouse had two daughters instead of two sons
Think what a different place this would be!
Ah, the old sympathy - empathy confusion. Sympathy will make you let a guy who is sick with coronavirus escape quarantine because you feel bad for them. Empathy takes into account the impact on not just the sick man, but on the other people affected by it and takes into account the sick man’s motives for escaping quarantine, which are almost certainly selfish. Sympathy often gets in the way of empathy. Men have more empathy than women, and women have more sympathy than men.
Per Exiled: Archery was fun too.
My favorite! Volleyball was the only team sport I liked. Like you, I preferred to watch they guys play sports [and I still do]. But I believe women should compete only against other women and should be encouraged in sports. It's good for them. I grew up playing tennis and golf for much of my life.
We also did the interpretive dancing thing which was a lot of fun [again, individually]. How well I remember spinning and prancing around the gym to Grieg's Hall of the Mountain King. ;-)
Showers were NEVER optional. We were given a failure for the day if we didn't shower unless it was that 'time of the month'. Amazing, though, how many periods we had in those days!
Females and trans/neo females are politically congruent, maybe. While diversity (i.e. color judgment) is exclusive in principle, it is no less exclusive than Nature with respect to certain critical physiological differences between the sexes. That said, send them into competition together. May the best feminine female or male win.
It's a trade-off, a trade-off between the potential for athletic victory..
Spoken like someone who has never participated in competitive sport. The payoff, for most, is in the lifelong enjoyment of sports, not the dream of gold. My wife, growing up in the 50's, never participated in school sports, but after we married we played coed softball, tennis, racquetball, volleyball, swimming, skiing, and the occasional sprint triathlon. She loved it, and wishes she had had the opportunity to participate earlier. Games are fun in and by themselves, and athletics provide a fun and a healthy lifestyle as well as teaching the value of the effort of becoming better. The benifits of athletics go far beyond the arena.
I was a successful high school athlete, but if my competition had been Olympians I would have given it up long before I could be competitive. If women have to measure their atheticism against men, women's sports will die. It is a sad day for both men an women if this opportunity becomes unavailable for young women.
rcocean: "Women's College Rugby is amazing..."
I can't even imagine it, but I've love to see it.
I was in a bar once with my wife, a onetime American football fan. She asked what sport is that? I said, rugby. She said, what are the rules? I said that well, you can't throw a forward pass, but other than that, there don't seem to be any. (I was figuring it out by watching.) My sporty son-in-law later said I wasn't too far off.
250 channels on the TV and never any sumo or rugby. There's an opportunity for an entrepreneur, I'm sure.
Women think men are terrible for not having sympathy and men think women are childish for lacking true empathy. Merkel, for example, had no idea how her offer, based in sympathy, for an unlimited welcome to Germany would motivate economic refugees, and not just those made homeless and stateless by war. She had no empathy and therefore caused Brexit out of misguided sympathy.
"And women are saying: Oh, of course, let me get out of your way."
Not the women with the drive to really compete athletically.
You already self-identified as NOT in that group.
the old sympathy - empathy confusion
They both have an emotional foundation. The former through attraction. The latter through transposition. They may be sufficient and necessary, or merely sym-pathetic and em-pathetic, respectively.
Ann Althouse said...
"But for whatever reason, women have to be pushed to the side..."
I think women will step aside. I wouldn't say push. An argument is being made to woman: Won't you please kindly step aside? And women are saying: Oh, of course, let me get out of your way.
Title 9 was meant to make men's and women's sports equal in representation. It succeeded.
By eliminating 10 positions for men in sports for every position it added for women in sports.
Now the leftists are trying to destroy women's sports by letting men participate in them.
And people like Ann are too simple and trusting to see what is really going on here.
The left's only goal is to destroy things that create a common fabric in our society.
Their only goal is to destroy.
The girls may want to quit, but many parents will push them because of the scholarship money, which will increase when other girls drop out and colleges need to fill teams to avoid ending boys' teams. If they don't have enough teams, they won't be able to reach their racial diversity goals. Who wins? Blacks or trans?
Ann said...
And women are saying: Oh, of course, let me get out of your way.
This is a category error.
Ann doesn't care about sports. So she and other leftists will just let it go to appease the barbarians and even sympathize with them to some extent.
Decent people will fight the barbarians. I want my girls to be able to play competitive sports with other women/girls. These shitheads need to be defeated.
But Ann is a Hillary voter. And a Mitt voter.
We are where we are today because many if not most people just don't care enough about what makes a free society free.
Gym would have been a lot better if we didn't have to wear those stupid onesies.
OK, then, do you believe transgenders should be allowed to compete in women's sports? Well, do you?.
I'd be more sympathetic about women's sports if the women would fight for themselves. Look at what went down with Navratilova. First she stands up for women's sports. Brave woman, I thought, good for her. Then she backed down. F*ck it, thought I, not my problem.
I merely predicted what they will do.
@Althouse, and I told you how I — and any other man — would respond in turn. We respect a woman who fights for herself. A woman who gives up so that everyone will like her is contemptible.
However, in passing, I can now see why women would rather work for lower wages and bitch about it rather than leave for a better paying job at another firm.
“To hunt the deer, you must be the deer.” - empathy
“I can’d do it! I can’t pull the trigger and kill that poor cute Bambi” - sympathy.
We have been forcing girls into stem for 20 years. Even though girls don’t much care for that line of study. Now we are just supposed to let them skip the sports because they don’t feel the need? I’m confused as to what is acceptable to force on unwilling segments of society.
Ann: this was one of the worst takes I’ve read from you in the sixteen years I’ve visited your blog. BTW: I’m a proud financial supporter of women’s collegiate sports programs.
On second thought a woman's place is in the kitchen and making babies, so I guess there is really no reason for them to participate in competitive environments anyway.
Annie C. said...
Gym would have been a lot better if we didn't have to wear those stupid onesies."
We didn't have onsies, but we had these awful 100 percent polyester shorts and blouses. They got really nasty when you worked up a sweat. We also had wool gym socks that were itchy as hell.
One problem is that there is such a thing as an athletic scholarship. The two areas have nothing to do with each other, and time and effort spent on one only takes away from the other.
Feelings of kindness and inclusivity were probably behind the decision to make the first step of the U.S. medical licensing exam process pass-fail, rather than scored.
As a long-time reader, I'm pretty sure that Althouse periodically trolls her own blog. It's probably a side effect of the law professor thing, wherein making the worse argument appear better is just part of the job.
WW, you may be a proud athletic supporter, but you give no good reason for that support, or that pride.
Each one of these guys need a serious ass kicking. My god. What pussies. There is no other way to look at this. None. Zero. Zip. Zilch. Nada.
The big increase in girls participating in sports in high school was prior to the passage of Title IX. I'm shocked Ann doesn't know that.
250 channels on the TV and never any sumo or rugby. There's an opportunity for an entrepreneur, I'm sure.
There's lots of rugby on TV. Premiership Rugby has a game of the week on NBCSN. Major League Rugby is entering its third year and has a game of the week on CBS Sportsnetwork (and Root Sports has other games). And there's a Rugby Sevens tournament nearly every other week on NBCSN. And the World Cup from Japan just wrapped up a few months ago. Nearly every game was televised.
Go Seawolves!
mockturtle wrote:" But I believe women should compete only against other women and should be encouraged in sports. It's good for them."
Oh, agreed. While I was never interested in participating in competitive sports, my niece is has competed in hs track and field at the state-wide level and it's given her a lot of confidence. I would not like to see her beaten by a trans "girl" who has gone through male puberty and has narrower hips, longer legs, stronger muscles and denser bones.
Unknown said...
The big increase in girls participating in sports in high school was prior to the passage of Title IX. I'm shocked Ann doesn't know that.
This is key to understanding the motives of the people who passed title 9.
It wasn't to help girls get into sports.
That is what they told the rubes like Ann.
Jim at said...
250 channels on the TV and never any sumo or rugby. There's an opportunity for an entrepreneur, I'm sure.
There's lots of rugby on TV. Premiership Rugby has a game of the week on NBCSN. Major League Rugby is entering its third year and has a game of the week on CBS Sportsnetwork (and Root Sports has other games). And there's a Rugby Sevens tournament nearly every other week on NBCSN. And the World Cup from Japan just wrapped up a few months ago. Nearly every game was televised.
Go Seawolves!
Sounds like the opportunity is in marketing and advertising.
Class of '67...yeah we mostly avoided sports and groups like GSA or GAA. My mother did too, 30 years prior. Not so much hating homos but afraid of being beaten up or harrassed.
But daily PE was a nice break. I loved volleyball...but you never took it seriously.
Again, I am not talking about what's good and bad or right and wrong. I am simply reading the landscape and imagining how things will play out in the future. I have no personal stake in what happens and was never involved in the sports dimension of the women's movement. I have nothing to say about the value of competition and one person beating someone else, but I do think young women will not want to be mean to transgenders and that a tendency toward caring and compassion will cause them to support inclusion. A small number of women will feel aggrieved because they don't get the victories they'd have gotten if transgenders were excluded and a larger number of women will simply redirect themselves into activities that don't involve winners and losers or where competition doesn't have to do with physical size and strength. What about activities that are about improving your individual well-being or that are fun or aesthetically pleasing? What about social games? What about academics and community service? What about martial arts and guns (where there's a self-defense angle)? I really don't see why team sports like rowing and soccer and basketball are given such primacy.
Beyond team sports, there's running, but you can run for your own personal best, for your health and enjoyment. Why is it important to beat someone else in a race? It needs to be so important that it outbalances the interest in being kind and inclusive towards transgenders. I don't see that happening.
it is not fair that someone who claims to be a woman but who went through puberty as male should be able to compete in sports (in which previous years of developed strength are an important variable) against women who claim to be women and who went through puberty as a female (years in which biology was preparing them for different challenges than biology prepares males for).
not only is it not fair ....
but watching someone who claims to be a woman but who went through puberty as a male, watching such a person mistreat and bully women who went through puberty as a female , is not something a decent human being, who cares about our fellow human beings, can watch without contempt ...
without contempt for the bullies who went through puberty as a male, and who now claim to be women, and who want to unfairly triumph, with their biological history of male development of strength, over women who went through puberty as a female.
The question of scholarships is very important. How many teenage girls are doing sports because they want the scholarship? I don't see how you can accept a massive loss of scholarship money, but thinking laterally, I'm not happy with a system of giving a lot of money to students who are good at sports. What justifies that? Why should the excellent academic student pay so much to go to college while money is shoveled at someone with athletic gifts and the willingness to put immense amounts of time into physical competition?
Another version of the same twisted thinking --
A white guy wants to sit in a seat at the front of the bus.
The black woman is all too happy to get up and move to the back.
Just to not be mean to the white guy.
As we noncompetitive softies like to say
Ooh, I missed that, Ann made a funny. My experience is that Ann has a competitive streak a mile wide, it is a defining trait. I love it when someone throws down a challenge and she rises to the bait. Every time. Careful who you mess with, folks.
The former is a dream, and it's only a dream for an elite few among women.
Althouse, let me ask you this. If I am right, you only started running and biking since you met Meade? Do get a net positive gain from it? Don't you wish you had started earlier? Would you have even given it a try without a coach (Meade)?
And you are defining "victory" from an ignorant position because of your disdain for competitive athletics. Victory to a lot of high school athletes (men and women) is making the varsity team on their fourth year of trying, even if they aren't the standout player. Victory is getting 10th place in cross country running, knowing you did the best you could.
Victory for my wife was finishing 488th out of 500 in a women's sprint triathlon after 6 months of chemo. Victory for my 6 year old grandaughter is being able to snowplow and then stepturn on her first day of skiing. If you let female sports die you are taking these victories away from them.
Ann Althouse said...
Why is it important to beat someone else in a race?
*************************
There's yer problem, right there.
Human beings have engaged in competitive sports for as long as they've been human.
If it's not important for women and girls to beat someone else in a race, why is it important that mentally disturbed men be allowed to compete WITH and AGAINST those women and girls?
Thankfully, there are several feminist groups out there, and who filed briefs in the Supreme Court case, who recognize this kind of thinking for what it is -- seeking to erase women.
I don't see how you can accept a massive loss of scholarship money, but thinking laterally, I'm not happy with a system of giving a lot of money to students who are good at sports.
That is why I want student loans limited to students in STEM or accounting majors.
mockturtle wrote:" But I believe women should compete only against other women and should be encouraged in sports. It's good for them."
Agreed.
Men who want to be women - fine. I don't care what people do. But, you should not be allowed, with your formerly male gender, that is in part, still there - to compete with other women.
Boxing.
Hold on a dang second. Could Althouse be messin' with us here?
Whenever AA writes something that is incredibly OFFENSIVE, like this is, someone always asks if maybe she is just being provocative. But I've yet to see her come and say, yes, I was just being provocative and didn't really mean it.
Also, during the '60's and '70's, the great obsession of teenage girls was not fitness or health, it was thinness. So, yeah, none of us cared very much if we could make a free throw or hit a baseball, but we were very much concerned with having flat stomachs and slender thighs. A girl in my class who somehow had unlimited access to "white cross" amphetamines was quite popular and probably sold enough of those things to pay for college. We were great fans of whatever the crash diet of the day was: The Cabbage Soup diet, the Grapefruit diet, the Liquid Protein diet. And girls smoked to keep their weight down.
That certainly wasn't healthy, but now the pendulum has swung far to the other side. The current Land's End catalog has a fat woman in a swimsuit on the cover. Now that girls are told that they're beautiful and wonderful even if they are morbidly obese, they're not even bothering with the sit-ups we used to do to fit into our hip-huggers. I don't think that moving away from competitive female sports will help that situation much.
There are already examples where the transgendered male Now female) wins over and over, and all of the other female competitors are NOT happy. It's not about "being mean" - it's about fairness.
Paco Wové said...
Feelings of kindness and inclusivity were probably behind the decision to make the first step of the U.S. medical licensing exam process pass-fail, rather than scored.
We all know why that was done, don't we. It used to be percentiles, not arbitrary scores. We can't have that. As applications go down in the world of Obamacare/ Medicare for all, we can't know who is good and who is barely making it. Or not making it without grade inflation.
The student who took Alan Bakke's place at UC, Davis was later convicted of second degree murder in a malpractice case.
I said absolutely nothing about what girls should do.
I merely predicted what they will do.
No, you made the argument stating reasons for why they should do it.
Althouse has to be fucking with us. No way she is that ignorant and lacking of empathy.
Athletics are critically important to the motor neuron brain body connection. You want to start your child's athletic training from day one because the first two years of life they are rapidly developing their central nervous system connections. This must continue your entire life if you want to maintain optimal health. In addition Athletics peaches practical aspects of Newtonian physics physiology anatomy perspective etc etc.
"I think women will step aside. I wouldn't say push. An argument is being made to woman: Won't you please kindly step aside? And women are saying: Oh, of course, let me get out of your way."
The last 5 to 10 years of pop Feminism (the brand!) pushed the long-held feminist idea that women no longer needed to be polite and no longer should be the sex that had to step aside. Women giving up on their sports just to be polite to trans athletes would be, I don't know, catastrophic for pop Feminism.
55% of high school students participate in a sport. 43% of these are female.
Now, it is true that many girls in high school athletics have caved. And if we are going to get into this subject, it should have been about why those girls were wrong to do so, and not simply give a weak argument suggesting they do so.
A perfect opportunity for transgenders to implement their own teams. if they are serious about competing that is.
Kindness has nothing to do with competition and fairness in competition. You can be kind to transgendered, and also tell them "NO" - you cannot compete with women.
We've grown to terribly afraid of the word NO.
Why not group the transgendered together for certain competitive sports? Not to single them out - but to allow them to compete on an even hormonal-DNA-gender-attributes playing field?
Sports in HS is one of the places where going to a private school is really advantageous. My kid’s school had mandatory athletics, from 6-11, and voluntary in 12. They ran enough teams that everyone could play whatever they wanted. In a normal HS, kids would start soccer in Kindergarten maybe, and be lucky to make JV by junior year. The private school kids would often start JV in 9, and get to play varsity in 12. Every year, out of maybe 90 kids in their class, they might get 3-4 kids get athletic scholarships, and a majority were girls. Soccer, field hockey, lacrosse, etc were popular. Girl with the locker just above my kid one year was the state golf champion, and got a full ride to Penn.
One of the things that was funny was that athletics, whether team or otherwise, ran form maybe 3-5:30 every day, and the social gathering place for the school was outside the gym, where everyone hung out waiting for their rides, etc. The thing that was striking at graduation was that there were no fat kids. None. The one really fat girl transferred out right before HS. Every kid there graduating was lean and fit. A lot of times, most of the boys aren’t fat yet, at that age, but the girls seem to get their start earlier. Not at a high school that has mandatory athletics for boys and esp girls. I really like female sports in esp HS. It teaches life lessons, and, I think, better prefers the girls for an active, which here means healthier, lifestyle after school.
"eliminate the restrictions to compete in an act of “inclusion as highest value” OR accept the necessity of discrimination in an attempt to protect the status quo"
Of course, allowing trannies to compete as women preserves the "discrimination." Eliminating restrictions would mean having only one competition. What could be more inclusive than one big happy group competing for the same prize?
Anyway, the obvious solution, not invented by me, is having one open competition in which anyone can participate, and one competition for people born as women.
Athletics and competitive sports can be two different things. Plenty of people who stay fit don't necessarily want to compete. Tho - the competitive spirit is often alive and well in those who are driven athletically.
Agree with Howard about the importance of physical actively from a young age.
Rusty said...
A perfect opportunity for transgenders to implement their own teams. if they are serious about competing that is.
They Offered them their own Bathrooms and they WENT TO COURT TO DEMAND ACCESS TO WOMEN'S BATHROOMS
They're NOT going to allow themselves to be closeted in their own teams
They DEMAND the RIGHT to beat women
why? I'll let you ponder that
Why is it important to beat someone else in a race? It needs to be so important that it outbalances the interest in being kind and inclusive towards transgenders. . . .
I'm not happy with a system of giving a lot of money to students who are good at sports. What justifies that? Why should the excellent academic student pay so much to go to college while money is shoveled at someone with athletic gifts and the willingness to put immense amounts of time into physical competition?
That's not simply predicting the future. That is calling for women's athletics to be shut down.
Which is the implication made, if not explicit point made, in the main post.
Why is it important to beat someone else in a race?
Duh! Because it's a RACE. Get it?
Yeah Rusty I think that's the best and only solution. Joe Rogan talked about this extensively about the male trans to female who started fighting in MMA without identifying her former himness. She just beat the fucking shit out of the women. The funny part of the story is that once the cat was out of the bag no one wanted to fight with her except for some of the top women in UFC who beat the shit out of her-him.
"The question of scholarships is very important. How many teenage girls are doing sports because they want the scholarship? I don't see how you can accept a massive loss of scholarship money, but thinking laterally, I'm not happy with a system of giving a lot of money to students who are good at sports. What justifies that? Why should the excellent academic student pay so much to go to college while money is shoveled at someone with athletic gifts and the willingness to put immense amounts of time into physical competition?"
Two syllables - Money.
open competition in which anyone can participate, and one competition for people born as women.
Diversity and exclusion in this context is a form of misogyny, which denies physiological differences between the sexes.
It's a trade-off, a trade-off between the potential for athletic victory and the feeling of being kind and inclusive. The latter is something quite valuable and within the reach of all women.
Three of my nieces have won athletic scholarships at great universities due to their accomplishments in high school. I think you are missing something in your "trade-off".
Certainly the girls who identify as boys aren’t going to compete in sports much.
"What about martial arts"
You don't consider martial arts a set of competitive sports?
The concept that everyone is entitled to their own point of view is great, but there are some points of view that don't even deserve a moment's consideration. The author's is one of them. "I was okay not doing something, so even though others may want to they should just, um, not." Okay, cool. Let's end special STEM scholarships for women, too. Most women will find they aren't worth the pursuit, and do other things anyway, so let the men have their thing. Don't encourage the upstarts to actually pursue something they may enjoy - just let the dream die a peaceful death.
Fuck that. My wife teaches advanced HS science in a well-regarded district. Many of her teacher friends coach sports (wifey doesn't have the time, with her other work duties and our baby). I think I'm gonna show them this blog post and see their reaction. Many are true SJW types (teachers, amirite?) but not all, and some are seeing the light as they get older. I predict a mixed reaction: they'll see both sides of the argument, but come down in favor of restricting women's sports to biological women only. I bet I'll hear a proposal or two about creating a "mixed" league where the self-mutilating twits can frolic to their hearts content (at least until it's time to redress their wounds and gobble their hormones). Fine by me - most high schools are akin to a circus and every self respecting circus has a freak show.
Odd, isn't it, that a woman who touts women's special capacity for caring and compassion has no effing clue about other people's perspective, completely and rigidly and self-satisfiedly ensconced as she is in her own conceptions, always a winner in her own mind.
No see, now here's the thing.
If we take women out of sports they will get fat.
Women must be allowed to be fat. Otherwise you are fat shaming.
Ergo, cancel women's sports and join the virtue-signalling woke- brigade.
Althouse: Why is it important to beat someone else in a race?
The Godfather: Because that's what makes it "a race".
Did you teach your law students that it wasn't important whether they won or lost a case?
"Why is it important to beat someone else in a race?"
Althouse, do you root for the Badgers football team, or the Packers, or the Brewers?
I was under the impression that you did.
The argument being made is essentially: women are soft and weak-willed, and easily pushed around by aggressive men, so they should just let it happen, because whaddayagonnado? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
You want to start your child's athletic training from day one because the first two years of life they are rapidly developing their central nervous system connections.
@Howard
I'm pretty passionate on this one. As soon as their bodies can handle it swing 'em, flip 'em, roll 'em, toss 'em, bounce 'em. The more you do this the faster and farther their physical abilities will advance. They will have better lives because of it.
I eager await the day, and I don't think it's too far off, when some woman's college basketball coach fields a team of trans that dominates the sport. I'll get the popcorn as I watch the cognitive dissonance on the Left.
Google "Caster Semenya"
Nice "girl" but - she's probably a guy. and she beats everyone, all the time.
I think the whole problem is one of semantics. A man (balls and all) who "identifies" as a woman, is called a "transgender WOMAN". But he's NOT a woman. Yes, he's transgender, but he should be called a "transgender MAN". Then ask yourself if a "transgender man" should be allowed to compete in women's sports.
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