Althouse: "Iran’s supreme leader... Ayatollah Ali Khamenei... added that President Trump was a 'clown' who only pretended to support the Iranian people but would 'push a poisonous dagger' into their backs."

January 17, 2020

"Iran’s supreme leader... Ayatollah Ali Khamenei... added that President Trump was a 'clown' who only pretended to support the Iranian people but would 'push a poisonous dagger' into their backs."

"The event, choreographed to present an image of power and unity, skirted the accidental downing of a Ukrainian passenger plane on Jan. 8 by Iranian forces that killed all 176 people on board. A lone banner featuring an airplane hung between huge pictures of General Suleimani."

From "Iran’s Supreme Leader Rebukes U.S. in Rare Friday Sermon/Ayatollah Ali Khamenei told thousands of worshipers that God’s backing had allowed Iran to 'slap the face' of the United States with a missile attack" (NYT).

Also on the front page at nytimes.com right now is "11 Americans Were Hurt in Iranian Strike, Military Says, Contradicting Trump/The servicemembers were treated for concussion symptoms after Iranian missiles hit air bases in Iraq last week. President Trump had said that 'no Americans were harmed.'"

If you're skeptical of the NYT, your first question was probably: How were they hurt?

The answer is that there were 11 Americans "treated for concussion symptoms from the blast" who "are still being assessed."

Those articles are at the top of the page at the NYT, where I went to search for "Iran" after getting the feeling that we'd stopped talking about Iran. I was thinking that absence was a sign that things are going well (compared to the recent uproar and anxiety about WW3 and the return of the military draft). When things go well for Trump (or the U.S.), the next bad story gains prominence. I was thinking that impeachment got moved to the front-burner precisely because the conflict with Iran had gone well.

But here's the Iran story back again. The Ayatollah is speaking, bucking up the crowd for support he doesn't deserve. "God's backing" enabled Iran to give the U.S. that "slap in the face"? Did God help Iran shoot down a passenger plane? Was it God's preference to dole out 11 concussions in retaliation for the killing of Soleimani? Not a very good argument for the purported greatness of God! Khamenei's propaganda is patently ridiculous. Given that he had nothing persuasive to say, he must have felt desperate pressure to speak.

127 comments:

Birkel said...: So the NYT does its best to support the Ayatollah of Rock-n-Rolla.
This is a story 40 years old.; 1/17/20, 8:32 AM
Anonymous said...: Kind of tired of the reference to "accidental downing of a Ukrainian passenger plane." It was intentionally shot down. Whether they knew it was a passenger plane is debatable; it. may have been misidentified, but it was intentionally shot down.; 1/17/20, 8:33 AM
GingerBeer said...: And NYT must have felt desperate pressure to report it.; 1/17/20, 8:35 AM
Lucid-Ideas said...: 1) Religious leaders have always been super-terrible during times of crisis, specifically war, throughout history. Abraham Lincoln said it best, "Both sides invoke the divine in those causes and conflicts they engage in, but God can not be for, and against the same thing at the same time. One side must be, most certainly is wrong." Popes and Byzantine Emperors were notorious for this. If you're a religious leader you had better make damn sure you win because losing almost always comes off as 'losing the mandate of heaven'.

2) Explosions and concussions. I'm glad to see the military getting out in front of these types of injuries as a lesson-learned from Iraq and Afghanistan. When you're in the moment, it's not something you feel, but you certainly do later. I'm sure that has something to do with this. At the time, no one was reporting any injuries and then 24 hours later symptoms started developing. 10 years ago cadre would've been like 'suck it up buttercup', but getting your brain sloshed around is not a trivial matter. Looks like the message started getting through.; 1/17/20, 8:38 AM
rehajm said...: Kind of tired of the reference to "accidental downing of a Ukrainian passenger plane." It was intentionally shot down.

...very tired.; 1/17/20, 8:39 AM
Bill, Republic of Texas said...: The NYT claimed, without evidence, the Iranians accidentally downed a Ukrainian passenger plane.

Better?; 1/17/20, 8:40 AM
M Jordan said...: The ongoing media onslaught against Trump is his greatest gift. Not only does it nudge many to, if not liking, at least pitying Trump, but more so it clips Trump’s baser instincts. Trump is Id without Superego without the media. He needs this clipping like a big dog needs a leash. He’s too powerful otherwise and too self confident.

Much as it irks me to watch the media trash him daily, I recognize it’s great utility.; 1/17/20, 8:40 AM
rehajm said...: Does the NYT want us to be cowed by the use of Trumpian tweet language by the Ayatollah? It makes me think Trump's tweets sting their intended target more than is reported...; 1/17/20, 8:42 AM
Bill, Republic of Texas said...: The "downing" of the Ukraine airplane by the Iranian regime was a sign from God.

For decades the Iranian government has been on and on about the US accidentally downing an Iranian passenger plane. They've used that as an example of how evil the US is.

Now their vaunted IRGC has done the same thing. That is awkward.; 1/17/20, 8:43 AM
WWIII Joe Biden, Husk-Puppet + America's Putin said...: Who knew Khamenei was a democrat?; 1/17/20, 8:44 AM
WWIII Joe Biden, Husk-Puppet + America's Putin said...: CNN should hire Khamenei; 1/17/20, 8:45 AM
WWIII Joe Biden, Husk-Puppet + America's Putin said...: my autocorrect wants to call the guy Khomeini; 1/17/20, 8:45 AM
Beasts of England said...: Assessed and evaluated for concussion symptoms?! Symptoms are not casualties. My dad was field artillery in Korea and I’m sure he had ‘concussion symptoms’ every week he was deployed...; 1/17/20, 8:45 AM
Michael K said...: The Impeachment may have been timed to divert attention from the signing of the Phase I China trade deal.

The Democrats are all about atmospherics. No accomplishments of the House majority. I think they will pay for this.

My own Congress woman , elected in 2018 and a professional politician who lied about her residence to run in AZ 2, has now announced she is entering rehab for alcoholism after a fall. Her GOP opponent, for whom I was a volunteer, is a local businesswoman with lots of experience of real life.; 1/17/20, 8:47 AM
Temujin said...: That's pretty funny. I had forgotten all the to-do, just a few days ago, about the imminent draft about to happen because of the start of WWIII.

They just run with this stuff, en masse, as if they all feed off of the same media trough. Which...they do. This is not new. I remember a few years ago commenting often that it's as if the media all get their thoughts, stories, and actions fed to them each day via a fax that originates from one place. Remember faxes? It's been so long since I had trust in the media as objective reporters, that I've forgotten when they ever were. Were they? Ever?

Anyway, one thing the the Ayatollah can depend on is the US media parroting his words and backing them up. Anything is preferable to Trump. Even apparently WWIII and the imminent draft.; 1/17/20, 8:48 AM
rehajm said...: Who knew Khamenei was a democrat?

Who knew the ayatollah knows what a clown is? How creepy is an Iranian clown?; 1/17/20, 8:50 AM
rehajm said...: The military has adopted a concussion protocol. Blue tent for you if bombs fall in the vicinity and it makes your head feel a little funny...; 1/17/20, 8:53 AM
Beasts of England said...: Did the NYT forget they showed a video of two missiles hitting the plane; the second launched after the first impact? That’s one heck of an accident. Sadly, they love Iran more than their own country.; 1/17/20, 8:55 AM
Freder Frederson said...: Assessed and evaluated for concussion symptoms?! Symptoms are not casualties. My dad was field artillery in Korea and I’m sure he had ‘concussion symptoms’ every week he was deployed...

Well, a lot of research has been done on the effects of concussion (both major and minor) since the Korean War. The military (and sports leagues, especially football) take it much more seriously now.

Apparently, we have reached the point where Trump is completely incapable of being incorrect. He said there were no casualties. What he should have said was that there were no serious casualties. Can't you at least admit that much?; 1/17/20, 8:55 AM
WWIII Joe Biden, Husk-Puppet + America's Putin said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 1/17/20, 8:56 AM
rcocean said...: Being put under medical treatment for a POSSIBLE Concussion isn't the same as being wounded. Are they going to get purple hearts for being under medical surveillance? If so, plenty of Football players should get one.; 1/17/20, 8:56 AM
Chuck said...: I believe that it was the publication DefenseOne.com that broke the story about the servicemen evacuated out of Iraq for concussion protocols/observation.

https://www.defenseone.com/threats/2020/01/eleven-us-troops-were-injured-jan-8-iran-missile-strike/162502/

And it was an interesting story beyond the news that indeed the Administration had not been entirely accurate in telling us that there had been no injuries in the Iranian attack on U.S. bases in Iraq.

The U.S. and Iraqi forces apparently had hours of notice to prepare for an attack, and then a full 15 minutes warning of incoming missiles. The way that the U.S. servicemen were injured is that they were drone operators who got their aircraft airborne so that they would not be hit on the ground, and because they were at their control stations operating drones when their base was hit, they were not in the fortified shelters with other personnel.

It certainly isn't a story of major casualties; but as with all things "Trump Administration," there will be a concerted effort in the press to see exactly what happened with the rush to report "no casualties," and the delay in reporting the news of the 11. I don't think it is a big story, but the trust factor with Trump and everything he is involved in is near-zero.; 1/17/20, 8:57 AM
Freder Frederson said...: Did the NYT forget they showed a video of two missiles hitting the plane; the second launched after the first impact?

And yet you get overly pedantic on NYT's choice of words. The shoot down was accidental in the sense that the target was misidentified. There is no evidence that the missile crew knew that the target was a civilian airliner.; 1/17/20, 8:58 AM
Quaestor said...: Not a very good argument for the purported greatness of God!

Or God's own newspaper.; 1/17/20, 8:58 AM
wild chicken said...: "a professional politician who lied about her residence to run in AZ 2, has now announced she is entering rehab for alcoholism"

Gotta hand it to em, pols still party, unlike all these stiffs IRL. There's always some lobbyist serving booze in his hotel room somewhere. Do drop by if you get a minute! Lol; 1/17/20, 9:00 AM
Dave Begley said...: Just imagine where this country would be if Brent was $120 and we weren't energy independent.

We'd be at the mercy of those ME loons and the Greens. Gas would be $5 a gallon. We'd be miserable.

The crushing defeat of the Dems and their Green New Deal is going to be great.; 1/17/20, 9:02 AM
Maillard Reactionary said...: AA: "Khamenei's propaganda is patently ridiculous."

True, but it's probably good enough for the average Muslim.; 1/17/20, 9:03 AM
Dave Begley said...: God doesn't pick sides. If so, then Creighton would be the college basketball champions every year.

And he is certainly not on the side of Islam.; 1/17/20, 9:03 AM
rehajm said...: No mention of Kirkpatrick's political affiliation in that article, so we all know what it is...; 1/17/20, 9:04 AM
Wince said...: Althouse said...
Not a very good argument for the purported greatness of God!

You forgot about the 56 Killed in Stampede at Funeral for Iranian General Qasem Soleimani.

Watch the embedded TIME video at the link.

Is a firehose being turned on the funeral procession @55sec (top of the frame)?; 1/17/20, 9:05 AM
Original Mike said...: "There is no evidence that the missile crew knew that the target was a civilian airliner."

I can't imagine there's evidence either way.; 1/17/20, 9:05 AM
Inga said...: “All is well” tweeted Trump that night, not quite. If Obama had lied about something similar, he would’ve been raked over the coals.; 1/17/20, 9:06 AM
Beasts of England said...: ’The shoot down was accidental in the sense that the target was misidentified.’

Prove it.; 1/17/20, 9:06 AM
Darkisland said...: The answer is that there were 11 Americans "treated for concussion symptoms from the blast" who "are still being assessed."

Not "treated for concussion" but rather "symptoms" and they "are still being assessed. I read that to mean that there was not obvious concussion but there might have been mild concussion. And they are checking to see if any treatment is required.

Freder, here's the definition of casualty from Wikipedia:

"A casualty, as a term in military usage, is a person in military service, combatant or non-combatant, who becomes unavailable for duty due to several circumstances, including death, injury, illness, capture or desertion"

I don't think I would define these troops as "casualties" under that def. They might have suffered injury or might not have. Had they been needed, they would have been fully available.

RCOcean, I don't think being assessed to see if treatment is required is the same thing as "medical treatment". (That might have been the point you were making and apologies if so)

John Henry

John Henry; 1/17/20, 9:07 AM
Big Mike said...: Who knew Khamenei was a democrat?

@BleachBit, purely honorary. “Enemy of my enemy” and all that. Both sides hate the people of the United States with a drooling passion.; 1/17/20, 9:09 AM
Freder Frederson said...: Prove it.

Prove that it wasn't. What possible reason would Iran have for shooting down a civilian aircraft? And if you can think of one, it pretty much backfired on Iran.; 1/17/20, 9:10 AM
Lucid-Ideas said...: For the record, and according the USArmy's field medical and triage manual (TM Something-something...can't remember), concussions range significantly in severity. It is because of advances in understanding how concussions vary and how their symptoms are expressed that the military began - somewhat recently - to revise how they treated them.

Some can be observed and dismissed in the field or 'triaged' for later evaluation. Some can be assessed as severe almost immediately (broken capillaries in the eye, bleeding from mucus membranes, ears, nose, sever ataxia even after a period of moderate rest, etc.). Almost all, in situations of extreme danger, can be fought through, but gone are the days when fighting through it, R&R and an aspirin were the accepted methods for treatment.; 1/17/20, 9:11 AM
WWIII Joe Biden, Husk-Puppet + America's Putin said...: *Pelosi and her Schitt-show stand shoulder to shoulder with the Jew hating, autocratic Ayatollahs. Shoulder to shoulder with the beards. Shoulder to shoulder with the government-whore-for-life terrorist regime of Islamic supremacists. *SPLC does too.

and AGAINST the modern people of Iran who want to free themselves from the entrenched governmetn whores.

If Iran fires shots into Iraq - the Mullahs and the America press stand in unison.; 1/17/20, 9:11 AM
Original Mike said...: "If Obama had lied about something similar, he would’ve been raked over the coals."

Whereas in Trump's case, it will be added to the articles of impeachment.; 1/17/20, 9:11 AM
Rick said...: But here's the Iran story back again... he had nothing persuasive to say,

It doesn't matter if it's persuasive, the IngaFreders just need to be able to pretend to believe it. That's a much easier standard to meet.; 1/17/20, 9:13 AM
Darkisland said...: I would not be so quick to say that the shootdown was accidental or even intentional but misidentified.

I have seen some reports, I have no idea how true they are, that some of the passengers were Sulemein supporters escaping from Iran.

This ties in with other reports that I see, again no idea how true, that the Iranian leadership set Sulemein up and the killing was done with their assistance (someone ratted him out) or at least acquiescence.

Thomas Wictor who often seems pretty far "out there" but who often turns out later to have been right, is saying that the Ayatollahs were in cahoots on the killing. He has speculated that someone, he does not say who, was escaping Iran on the plane and that is why it was shot down.

Five of the passengers were doctoral students at University of Windsor. One article I read, from an Iranian also at UW, thinks they were the targets.

I suspect that the shooting was intentional but have no way of knowing that. It just seems too big a coincidence.

John Henry; 1/17/20, 9:14 AM
Lucid-Ideas said...: I paraphrased the Lincoln quote. I knew there was something off about it, but I found the correct version (http://www.abrahamlincolnonline.org/lincoln/speeches/meditat.htm).

"The will of God prevails. In great contests each party claims to act in accordance with the will of God. Both may be, and one must be, wrong. God cannot be for and against the same thing at the same time. In the present civil war it is quite possible that God's purpose is something different from the purpose of either party -- and yet the human instrumentalities, working just as they do, are of the best adaptation to effect His purpose. I am almost ready to say that this is probably true -- that God wills this contest, and wills that it shall not end yet. By his mere great power, on the minds of the now contestants, He could have either saved or destroyed the Union without a human contest. Yet the contest began. And, having begun He could give the final victory to either side any day. Yet the contest proceeds."

Appropriate what with all the Civil War 2: Electric Boogaloo talk going around...; 1/17/20, 9:15 AM
MartyH said...: Yesterday the local newscast called the plane crash an “explosion”...; 1/17/20, 9:16 AM
Beasts of England said...: ’Prove that it wasn't.’

Logic is not your strong suit, is it?; 1/17/20, 9:16 AM
Darkisland said...: Wictor also argues, with pictures, timelines and other evidence, that Solemein has been dead for 3 years already and it was not him that we killed.

Not sure I am buying it but he does make a case that makes sense.

Neither he nor I have any idea why, though.

John Henry; 1/17/20, 9:17 AM
WWIII Joe Biden, Husk-Puppet + America's Putin said...: Iran shoots down a passenger plane and they blame Trump

Iran shoots down a passenger plane and the US hack(D) press blames Trump.

Iranian people hate their leaders. Democrats love the Iranian Mullahs. Gross.; 1/17/20, 9:17 AM
Gojuplyr831@gmail.com said...: "If Obama had lied about something similar, he would’ve been raked over the coals."

Good thing he only lied about keeping you doctor.; 1/17/20, 9:19 AM
Quaestor said...: ...he must have felt desperate pressure to speak.

The same can be said for Pinch.

Actually, the NYT is being untrustworthy (i.e. normal). The military is much more cautious of possible concussion these days than even during the Gulf War, primarily due to longterm work done on football players. If a soldier is near an explosion he will be examined and assessed as a matter of routine prophylaxis. A physician or a physician's assistant will example him for hemorrhaging,
tympanum perforations, and other common warning signs, followed by a questionnaire, balance and coordination checks, etc. Being examined is "treatment" in a very loose sense, as is putting a bandaid on a paper cut.; 1/17/20, 9:19 AM
Big Mike said...: There is no evidence that the missile crew knew that the target was a civilian airliner.

@Freder, can you produce evidence that they didn’t know it was a civilian airliner? The proximate cause of this tragedy/travesty is a lack of controls to assure that the target is a legitimate military target, and blame for this falls squarely on the shoulders of Iran’s military leadership. That Khamenei has done nothing to square around this situation should be interpreted as his acceptance of the situation.; 1/17/20, 9:20 AM
Ambrose said...: Is it a fatwa when an ayatollah calls you a clown? Trump has a way of making his opponents play by his rules - and it's hard to outdo him when playing by his rules.; 1/17/20, 9:27 AM
Beasts of England said...: Remember the key piece of evidence in the shoot down: the publicly available telemetry shows the jet climbing at a rate of more than 1,500 feet per minute. Maybe you could claim the Iranians were too stupid to discriminate the signature of a tiny cruise missile versus a big ol’ jet airliner, but there is zero excuse, re: ascending and descending.; 1/17/20, 9:29 AM
Quaestor said...: I would not be so quick to say that the shootdown was accidental or even intentional but misidentified.

Video shows the Iranian SAM battery fired at that airliner at least twice, nor is there any evidence the IRGC tried to contact the plane before shooting it down. In fact, it is clear that Ukraine International Airlines Flight 752 was still climbing to its assigned altitude after it took off from IKA.; 1/17/20, 9:30 AM
Howard said...: As long as it isn't your kid, a soldier getting a concussion is not a casualty. As we have learned from this endless war the concussion issue is much like the phony PTSD issue it's just a way for these crybabies to get free stuff which results in increasing prices for my McDonald's Happy meals which is a tragedy.; 1/17/20, 9:31 AM
Infinite Monkeys said...: Still better than Pelosi talking about time. Hers sounded more like a stoner's late night dorm room musing than a politician's speech.; 1/17/20, 9:31 AM
Rick said...: Good thing he only lied about keeping you doctor.

Not true. He also lied that the "typical" family would save 2,500 / year.; 1/17/20, 9:32 AM
Curious George said...: Chuck likely hopes at least some of the 11 will die. I mean it's not the 30 he claimed, but it's a start, right Chuckles?; 1/17/20, 9:33 AM
Curious George said...: "Rick said...
Good thing he only lied about keeping you doctor.

Not true. He also lied that the "typical" family would save 2,500 / year."

And your plan.; 1/17/20, 9:34 AM
Drago said...: Admiral Inga: “All is well” tweeted Trump that night, not quite. If Obama had lied about something similar, he would’ve been raked over the coals."

History began anew for Inga this very morning.

Its as if Benghazi never happened at all.

You remember, that little thing where 4 Americans were killed and obama and his team blamed it all on a video and said it was a spontaneous protest by simple protestors instead of what it really was: a coordinated and planned attack.

Or take the Bowe Bergdahl incident where a cowardly traitor purposely walked off his post and into the arms of the Taliban and helped the Taliban to improve their tactics in attacking Americans leading to the deaths of 5 US soldiers.

Ibama and his lefty minions called Bergdahl a literal "hero"...from the Rose Garden....on live TV in front of a global audience.

Can you imagine what Bergdahls Taliban allies thought when they saw that?

An American President declaring a traitor who helped kill Americans a "hero".

No wonder LLR-lefty Chuck (WHO WILL FIGHT YOU!) called obama "magnificent" and passionately defends him and his policies against those evil republicans.; 1/17/20, 9:35 AM
Rick said...: [There is no evidence that the missile crew knew that the target was a civilian airliner.]

It's revealingly anti-American the IngaFreders defend Iran in ways they would never defend America.; 1/17/20, 9:35 AM
Original Mike said...: "Remember the key piece of evidence in the shoot down: the publicly available telemetry shows the jet climbing at a rate of more than 1,500 feet per minute. Maybe you could claim the Iranians were too stupid to discriminate the signature of a tiny cruise missile versus a big ol’ jet airliner, but there is zero excuse, re: ascending and descending."

Big, ascending and, I assume, headed away from Tehran. Seems to me the burden of proof is on those who would argue it was an accident.; 1/17/20, 9:35 AM
narayanan said...: Blogger Lucid-Ideas said...
but gone are the days when fighting through it, R&R and an aspirin were the accepted methods for treatment.
_____________
if helmets are helping(?) in football, can the services use similar?; 1/17/20, 9:36 AM
Michael K said...: There is no evidence that the missile crew knew that the target was a civilian airliner.

Isn't it nice that we have a field marshal with direct connections to the Iran SAM community ?; 1/17/20, 9:41 AM
TreeJoe said...: Wow, my usual "outrage at the press" dial just turned up to 11/10 on this one.

1. The passenger aircraft was allowed to take off from the Iranian Capital airport in the middle of an Iranian planned missile strike on US forces. It was fired on shortly after takeoff by one SA-15 missile and then THIRTY SECONDS AFTER the first missile launch, when the plane was still in the air but turning, a second was launched. You can call this many things, but not deliberate or "accidental" would require more evidence than currently present. Current evidence shows it was deliberately shot down.

2. Trump and the military up to 24 hours after the missile strike claimed no casualties. That still appears to be an accurate assessment. Further, the reporting says it took a week for the concussion symptoms to be assessed as ongoing and the military implemented a new concussion/TBI protocol. Those soldiers do not appear to yet meet the criteria of casualty. But I see no investigation as to why some troops were kept out of fortified positions...were the drone operators ordered to stay in their building and keep their drones aloft? If so, why? Could they have done that via autopilot and gotten to the bunkers? Was the risk to their lives deemed appropriate to keep their drones aloft?

....

But no, this has to be about Trump and WH messaging rather than an actual investigation into whether these soldiers were appropriately protected.; 1/17/20, 9:44 AM
Rick said...: Howard said...
As long as it isn't your kid, a soldier getting a concussion is not a casualty.

A casualty means a soldier unavailable for duty. From the information given we can't tell if these men are casualties or not. But of course that doesn't matter to Howard because his only goal is to criticize and facts are simply not relevant.; 1/17/20, 9:44 AM
Drago said...: Its my understanding Lev Parnas may have direct evidence that it was Donald Trump himself who sabotaged the Ukrainian airliner in order to frame the Poor Innocent Islamic Supremacist Mullahs as well as ordered US personnel to beat US servicemembers over the head with clipboards which resulted in the potential concussions.

Further, democrats are calling for Trump to be arrested for the murder of the clearly innocent and revered Soleimani who was only in Iraq to establish a new St Judes hospital for children as well hand out university scholarships to lesbian schoolgirls.; 1/17/20, 9:45 AM
Jupiter said...: "Given that he had nothing persuasive to say, he must have felt desperate pressure to speak."

Wait, so, the NYT is "he"? I guess newspapers have pronouns now.; 1/17/20, 9:48 AM
Bill Peschel said...: Khamenei sounds like he's running on the Democratic ticket. They've got nuthin' either.; 1/17/20, 9:51 AM
Lucid-Ideas said...: @Narayanan

"Helmets"

Explosions are about overpressure, not kinetics. In fact, PASGT and MIC-H helmets have been found in certain circumstances to make overpressure injuries from blast worse. This is because military helmets do not completely surround the head, and depending on the direction of the blast, can come up and under the helmet which can focus the energy of the blast on the skull. This is exacerbated by all the gear guys wear on their helmets now too (things like NODs, weights for NODs, lights, beacons, etc.).

More than likely, being on base and probably not devoted security personnel the casualties in question were not wearing helmets, but I genuinely don't know. What I do know is overpressure of as little as 1.5 PSI can bust your ear drums and 'ring your bell'. 2 or 3 PSI can knock you off your feet, and 5 PSI will throw a full-grown man. All of these figures are relativistic depending on your proximity to the blast. Furthermore, proximity to the blast and the power of the charge can transfer overpressure damage to air-filled organs in your body and 'liquify' them. This is 99% usually fatal (especially if the air-filled alveoli in your lungs rupture and fill with fluid), but you usually have to be so close that massive shrapnel damage usually kills you first.

So no. It is not like football.; 1/17/20, 9:56 AM
Leland said...: It is silly to argue whether the SAM crew knew what they were shooting at. The questions are why was the SAM crew there? And if there, why was the airspace not closed to civilian traffic? Is it US responsibility to close Iranian airspace when Iran chooses to lob missiles in the air?

BTW, there is a story during the opening days of OIF of allied aircraft being shot at by allied ground fire. The military planners had done a good job of deconflicting flight routes from air defense locations. However, they didn't consider that US Army ground artillery fired ground to ground ordinance that travelled over 80,000 feet above the ground in its ballistic arc. No civilian aircraft were harmed in the OIF crossfire.; 1/17/20, 9:59 AM
Drago said...: For those keeping score, what the dems/LLR's need and are just aching for to support their political purposes is a body count greater than 4.; 1/17/20, 10:00 AM
iowan2 said...: Service men being evaluated using concussion protacol was reported live shortly after the dust settled. This is not breaking news. Attempting to use this reporting, only validates the sufferers of TDS. TRUMP LIED!
The hyperbole is now baked in, no one believes this "crisis" either. The left, the right, nobody believes. The TDS crowed knows there is no there, there, in this "breaking news".

Go back and find all the video of the live reporting of the killing of Osama bin Laden. The stories kept changing. Something would be reported, then an hour later, new reporting would contradict the previous story. This went one for 4 or five hours. Not a big deal right? Fog of war and all. But every ounce of news was coming from only the White House Press office. All information was being dispersed by the those at the very top of the Obama administration.
I remember commenting to my wife, what a cluster fuck the reporting was. Only one source of information, and the White House kept getting it wrong.
Yes we all know, down the memory hole...history starts anew upon rising from slumber.; 1/17/20, 10:00 AM
narciso said...: seeing the contributions of iapac, to the likes of gillebrand and co, as well as this, it's probably the other way around,

https://pjmedia.com/trending/is-iran-infiltrating-congress-through-democrats-like-ilhan-omar-and-rashida-tlaib/; 1/17/20, 10:04 AM
Drago said...: Blogger Leland: "It is silly to argue whether the SAM crew knew what they were shooting at."

Do note that none of the items on the lefts/LLR-left endless list of excuses for the iranian shootdown were ever afforded the crew of the USS Vincennes even though the Vincennes was under attack and the airliner departed from a civilian/military joint use airfield in Iran.

You know, the crew of the USS Vincennes should simply have converted to islam en mass and called for Death to America and the lefties/LLR-lefties would have just shut their mouths about it all.; 1/17/20, 10:05 AM
iowan2 said...: Lucid Ideas at 9:56 is a great example of the quality commenters she has cultivated here. A tip of the hat to our Host.; 1/17/20, 10:05 AM
Howard said...: That's exactly right Rick. You people care more about protecting Trump's reputation then the condition of the troopers injured in the rocket attack.; 1/17/20, 10:07 AM
narciso said...: you notice how few cards are face up,

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2020/01/flashback-democrat-senators-took-money-from-iran-lobby-before-vote-on-obamas-nuke-deal-iran-threatened-to-out-bribed-officials/; 1/17/20, 10:07 AM
narciso said...: but the carlos slims times was scrutinizing the jewish senators for opposition to the iran deal, they even set up a beat for this,; 1/17/20, 10:09 AM
Ken B said...: Still being assessed? As in they were possibly treated for concussion as a precaution but might not have been concussed and that is being assessed still?; 1/17/20, 10:10 AM
Ken B said...: “CNN should hire Khamenei”

If ownership is transitive, Khameini already owns CNN through the DNC.; 1/17/20, 10:11 AM
Bob Boyd said...: Interesting comments Lucid. Thanks.

I would bet though, with the threat level elevated, all US personnel were wearing vests and helmets including civilian contractors.; 1/17/20, 10:12 AM
exhelodrvr1 said...: "if Obama had lied about something similar,"

Oh, yeah. As in the way the media raked his admin over the coals following the significantly more problematic lies about Benghazi.; 1/17/20, 10:14 AM
pacwest said...: I guess Trump should have come on TV and said (although it's unlikely he would have known at the time) "A couple of our forces might have suffered concussions. We're off to war!" But no, he lied.

Stupid, stupid, stupid people. Let me rephrase that. Stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid people.

In other news the China P1 and USMCA is expected to add .5 to .75 GDP growth.; 1/17/20, 10:16 AM
hombre said...: Here’s the Ayatollah channeling House Democrats in the official organ of the leftmediaswine.; 1/17/20, 10:16 AM
exhelodrvr1 said...: It seems most likely that the missiles were deliberately shot by a nervous crew, who didn't realize when they shot that it was a civilian aircraft.

But it's certainly not out of the question for Iran to have deliberately shot down the aircraft, with the plan of hiding the evidence and Trump being blamed for it, using the easily duped and duplicitous western media and Democratic politicians.; 1/17/20, 10:18 AM
Seeing Red said...: It sounds like He’s trying to out-Trump Trump in the public arena but he can’t.

That’s not their way.

Stab the Iranians in the back?

That was Obama.; 1/17/20, 10:22 AM
narciso said...: the first missile maybe, but the second, did iapac push miss rutnik, to lobby ambassador kislyak, for the iran deal, as with niac, which is astroturf,; 1/17/20, 10:23 AM
Seeing Red said...: And coming from him....; 1/17/20, 10:23 AM
narciso said...: the ayatollah is an azeri, he may have been trained at Patrice Lumumba university, he was a veteran of evin prison, a powerful and ruthless opponent, that has been rarely challenged,; 1/17/20, 10:24 AM
Big Mike said...: You remember, that little thing where 4 Americans were killed and obama and his team blamed it all on a video and said it was a spontaneous protest by simple protestors instead of what it really was: a coordinated and planned attack.

Yeah, because spontaneous protests always include rocket-propelled grenades, machine guns, and mortars.; 1/17/20, 10:25 AM
MD Greene said...: The New York Times has turned itself into a parody of a serious newspaper.

The lead business section story last Sunday was about truckers delivering -- and selling -- water to people in Kathmandu.

Last February a Sunday business lead was "America's Most Powerful Flight Attendant," which of course was picked up all year long by the credulous staffs of lesser publications. Then came one about the challenges faced by breastfeeding moms who worked at a state prison.

A cover story in the Sunday magazine last year shared "How The View Became the Most Important Political TV Show."

I'm a serious person and so had long since given up reading the daily paper; after that, I had to let go of the Sunday paper as well.

I'm much happier now.; 1/17/20, 10:27 AM
narciso said...: that is why this silly notion there was a fatwa against nuclear weapons was ridiculous, but the crew headed by fekrazedeh even with imput from north Korean and Pakistani scientists haven't really made much progress,; 1/17/20, 10:28 AM
Deevs said...: I wonder if anyone ever tried to use a similar claim of "it was an accident" as a defense in other situations. Let's say a drive-by shooting.

"Yeah, I shot up that birthday party and killed those two kids, but I wasn't aiming for them! I was trying to kill their idiot uncle. See? It was an accident!"; 1/17/20, 10:30 AM
Lucid-Ideas said...: @Bob Boyd

I would think so too. The Iranian domestic version of the SCUD missile carries a conventional warhead somewhere between 1500-2500lbs. That is a large warhead with a lot of demolition power. In other words, even with full protective gear and in reinforced cover 20 landing on the airbase would've put some of those blasts pretty close to personnel.

For comparison, the lethal overpressure radius for a US MK84 2000lb bomb is almost 150-200 yards (1 1/2 football fields). That does not include it's lethal radius for fragmentation. That no one was 'seriously' injured or killed is a testament to planning and OPSEC (operational security) procedures.; 1/17/20, 10:32 AM
dbp said...: "'push a poisonous dagger' into their backs"

It sounds kind of funny, but really makes sense. The mullahs have a medieval mindset and so they think we (just like them) plan to get, "medieval on their ass".

https://youtu.be/1m24c5TRi0c?t=70; 1/17/20, 10:32 AM
hombre said...: Freder: “Prove that it wasn't. What possible reason would Iran have for shooting down a civilian aircraft? And if you can think of one, it pretty much backfired on Iran.”

Unlike lefties, we are not required to think the best of, or even to give the benefit of the doubt to, members of The New Axis of Evil. Here is some evidence: Iran is malevolent. The plane was hit by two missiles. Iran was not under attack. The near-immediate reaction of Iran was to blame the USA as the sine qua non causation in the matter, probably expecting the leftmedia and Democrats to follow suit, thereby disadvantaging Trump somehow. It’s not conclusive. Neither are Iran’s excuses echoed by the NYT.

It did backfire, but who can explain the thinking of evil nutbags? For example, the Democrats thought impeaching Trump was a smart move.; 1/17/20, 10:39 AM
Known Unknown said...: Khomeni!
Khamenei!

Let's call the whole thing off.; 1/17/20, 10:49 AM
AllenS said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 1/17/20, 10:51 AM
narciso said...: one is reminded that Bernie saunders back then, was justifying the 'act of war' that seizing an embassy entails, taking an argument only now endorsed by Montclair state's grover furr,

it's an understandable view, for Khamenei to take, as codevilla has pointed out, he and his predecessor waged a proxy war first in Beirut in western Europe against dissidents, in Buenos aires, later in Afghanistan and Iraq, asaib al haq's kidnapping in 2007, was only the most obvious example with practically no pushback,; 1/17/20, 10:52 AM
AllenS said...: AllenS said...
Having been in combat, there is a certain distance where the blast would cause a concussion, and that distance usually gives you shrapnel wounds, also. I suffered shrapnel wounds to my head, when a mortar round landed about 30 feet from me. I did not have a concussion.

I originally typed "motor" instead of "mortar". I might have a delayed (50+ years) concussion. Should I apply for disability?; 1/17/20, 10:55 AM
narciso said...: fwiw:

https://www.aei.org/foreign-and-defense-policy/middle-east/supreme-leader-ali-khamenei-a-secret-russian-life/

now it was rumored that carlos the jackal also had attended plu,; 1/17/20, 10:57 AM
walter said...: Even Palsi noted the recklessness of allowing a civilian flight at the time.
How 'bout that black box?; 1/17/20, 10:59 AM
walter said...: And oh..air traffic controllers are certainly recorded in that fine nation..; 1/17/20, 11:01 AM
John henry said...: Blogger Drago said...

No wonder LLR-lefty Chuck (WHO WILL FIGHT YOU!)

No he won't.

Thunderdrome has been open all week and a couple people have stopped by looking for a fight.

Chuck was not one of them as far as I can tell.

How about it, Chuck? Care to stop by www.thunderdrome2020.blogspot.com and get your fight on?

Don't be a pussy. (Headline reference)

John Henry; 1/17/20, 11:03 AM
John henry said...: Blogger narciso said...

Montclair state's grover furr,

Now there is a name I've not heard in a while.

I hung out in a socialist mail list for a year or two back in the oughties and he was there. He is a pretty virulent Stalinist who thinks 1) Most of what is published about Stalin is lies. (Nobody died building the useless White Sea Canal, for example) and 2) Even if it were true, Stalin was way too soft. Building true communism takes balls of steel.

He used to email me articles from the Russian archives, in Cyrillic Russian, to try to prove his points. He really, really, really, doesn't like me because of my distaste for the murderous Stalin.

Furr is a full, tenured, professor at MontClair State University. He publishes his Stalin "research" on his school website.

To call him batshit crazy is to insult batshit.

Your tax dollars at work.

(All the above was true 15 years ago. I don't know if it still is)

John Henry; 1/17/20, 11:13 AM
Jason said...: If they were my troops, if they were within about 1 or 2km or so of and HE blast that size and there was any doubt, I'd advise them to go to the TMC and get it assessed.

Doesn't mean they were wounded in any meaningful sense. It just means I'm starting a paper trail so they may claim VA benefits later, just in case.

As a maneuver element commander, I'm not a doctor anyway, and it's not my place to assess concussions once the bullets stop flying, and why should I, when I have attached medics, a PA and an experienced surgeon organic to the battalion and a C-med detachment there if necessary?

When in doubt, get it checked out.

And also, keep things in perspective and don't lose your bearings like a hysterical bitch. But apparently that's a fucking lost art among libtards.; 1/17/20, 11:23 AM
Yancey Ward said...: NYTimes June 7th 1944 with today's journolists:

"Allies Suffer Catastrophic Losses in Day One of Operation Overlord."
"Hitler Claims Victory"
"Eisenhower Resignation Imminent"; 1/17/20, 11:39 AM
Sam L. said...: "If you're skeptical of the NYT, your first question was probably: How were they hurt?"
"Skeptical" I am not. I despise, detest, and distrust the NYP (WaPoo, too).; 1/17/20, 11:44 AM
Achilles said...: AllenS said...

Having been in combat, there is a certain distance where the blast would cause a concussion, and that distance usually gives you shrapnel wounds, also. I suffered shrapnel wounds to my head, when a mortar round landed about 30 feet from me. I did not have a concussion.

It is pretty funny watching Howard do his little "you are all cucks" routine over this.

If you don't get hit by explosion debris or get knocked down you can't get a concussion.

The proper talking point these idiots are looking for is over-pressure. They can't even get their propaganda right. And you pretty much have to be in range of debris to get hit with over-pressure. But whatevs.

You are a dumb piece of shit Howard. And we know Chuck is just going to slurp up any dumb shit the media feeds him.; 1/17/20, 11:45 AM
Michael McNeil said...: There is no evidence that the missile crew knew that the target was a civilian airliner.

We don't need to know if the Iranian missile crew knew (somehow, deep in the bones of their very being) “that the target was a civilian airliner.”

This is because we know very well that they were ultimately negligently careless — as in they couldn't care less — about whether the target for their unleashed mass slaughter was a civilian airliner or not.

That sad fact about the “corporate culture” enveloping the Iranian Islamic State's military forces is revealed, first of all, in this news piece reporting that an “Iranian commander bragged of unilateral authority to shoot down planes: In 2016, Iran said even the youngest officers do not need authorization to launch attacks.”

As if that weren't enough (if one needed any more confirmation), Iranian propaganda is being issued forth right now — after the fact — that is outright defending the missile(s) shooters' action by depicting as an object lesson “an IRGC officer on trial for failing to shoot down a US missile — b/c it might be a passenger jet. By implication, the strike on the Ukrainian plane was an understandable and forgivable mistake made by patriots doing their duty.”

One can easily see why the Iranian missile crew didn't hesitate or even check twice after a glance at the radar trace: they didn't want to be that officer in that military trial for his life.; 1/17/20, 11:49 AM
Yancey Ward said...: I will guess that none of the 11 actually suffered a serious concussion since the description is just assessments of possible concussions still being taken a week later. If you have a concussion, you will know it within a few hours max, I promise you- I have had one before (I knew it the moment I tried to stand up which was 30 seconds after I had hit the back of my head).; 1/17/20, 11:51 AM
FullMoon said...: Acknowledging my ignorance, I always thought war casualties meant dead.

Regarding NFL concussions, conspiracy fans might expect it began as a long term lead up to a class action suit.; 1/17/20, 12:01 PM
Rick said...: Howard said...
That's exactly right Rick. You people care more about protecting Trump's reputation then the condition of the troopers injured in the rocket attack.

If only your beliefs were based on facts rather than emotional outbursts and hate you could make an intelligent comment on something.; 1/17/20, 12:01 PM
FullMoon said...: Quick Google of term "war casualties" leads to lists of war dead. Not injured.; 1/17/20, 12:07 PM
Beasts of England said...: Casualty means unable to continue in battle.; 1/17/20, 12:15 PM
narciso said...: apparently so,

https://www.montclair.edu/profilepages/view_profile.php?username=furrg; 1/17/20, 12:17 PM
narciso said...: ah yes the times where david sanger, was leaked the first of two Iraq battle plans, probably by Wilkerson or Armitage, which forced us to consider other options, how they blew up abu ghraib into a cause celebre that agitated persons all over the world, for 40 days straight,; 1/17/20, 12:21 PM
n.n said...: God tempered Trump's action, and warned Khamenei that he will not have free reign to run amuck anymore. Reconcile with your people, with your neighbors. #HateLovesAbortion; 1/17/20, 12:22 PM
FullMoon said...: Blogger Beasts of England said...

Casualty means unable to continue in battle.

Agreed. Now ask average poorly educated non military citizen what a war casualty is and they will say killed. No doubt using the word casualty in news reports instead of "potentially injured " was due to typical MSM precision of language rather than an intentionally misleading headline.; 1/17/20, 12:47 PM
AllenS said...: Of course the military will do whatever to insure the health of the troops. I remember well when one after another we all had to go through a "short arms inspection".; 1/17/20, 12:51 PM
narciso said...: you need to know the players to understand the program,

https://twitter.com/NCRIUS/status/1218221988008820737?s=20; 1/17/20, 2:19 PM
narciso said...: all the players,

https://english.alarabiya.net/en/features/2017/10/30/Secrets-of-the-1983-Beirut-Bombings-The-role-of-Iran-s-IRGC.html; 1/17/20, 2:21 PM
Quaestor said...: ...example him for hemorrhaging,

Spellcheck treachery.; 1/17/20, 3:19 PM
Michael K said...: I always thought war casualties meant dead.

In fact, casualties who are not killed are preferred as they immobilize those caring for them. The usual ratio is 3 to 1. One argument for the M 16 was wounding was more effective.; 1/17/20, 3:24 PM
Rusty said...: "Big, ascending and, I assume, headed away from Tehran. Seems to me the burden of proof is on those who would argue it was an accident."

1st Iranian soldier, " Hey there's something up there!"
2nd Iranian Soldier, " Well shoot it!"
1st Iranian soldier, " Nuthin'. Nuthin' happened."
2nd Iranian soldier, " Shoot it again!"
1st Iranian soldier seeing the missile burst, ' That'll learn em !"; 1/17/20, 3:30 PM
Nichevo said...: What he should have said was that there were no serious casualties. Can't you at least admit that much?

No, Freder, you guys should have let it go. The Iranians should not have been given the satisfaction of learning they gave eleven of our guys headaches.

If you understood what it was to be at war, and were on our side, you would realize that this was a military secret that should have been safeguarded.

You would have been some prize in World War II when we lost 1500 men in D-Day exercises.; 1/19/20, 4:59 AM
Nichevo said...: Blogger Howard said...
That's exactly right Rick. You people care more about protecting Trump's reputation then the condition of the troopers injured in the rocket attack.

And you, Howard. You're better than this.; 1/19/20, 5:04 AM
Nichevo said...: Beasts of England said...
’The shoot down was accidental in the sense that the target was misidentified.’

Prove it.

Da hell, Beasts! You talk like you never saw a 144 ft long cruise missile,

with civilian transponder emissions,

take off out of Khomeini Airport and climb to 8000' MSL on a regular civilian flight path before...

every day for months and years.

It's going to be tough to get the evidence that they murdered that aircraft, because we don't have permissive access to their systems and people. Islamic dictatorships are funny that way.

What we get out of SIGINT, remains to be seen. But part of the problem may be that the order was delivered by hand, to avoid SIGINT, and that could have led to the mistake, i.e. "shoot down the sixth airliner that takes off that morning," or "shoot down the airliner that takes off at 6:15AM."

Now, PS 752 was supposed to take off at 5:15, but was delayed, and probably was out of order. So it may even be that there was another 737 full of generals defecting, or nuclear scientists, or Ayatollah sex slaves, or who knows who or what macguffin, that was worth it to shoot down to the regime.

I've gone into all this before. I have at least seven hypotheses why they murdered that aircraft, but yes, they they murdered that aircraft. You want evidence? Rouhani already confessed, or rather he warned/bragged about it in advance. His Tweet:

Those who refer to the number 52 should also remember the number 290. #IR655
Never threaten the Iranian nation.
12:25 PM · Jan 6, 2020·Twitter for Android

And then they shoot down an airliner by accident? Allah must be mighty pissed at them.; 1/19/20, 5:19 AM