The Trump tweets quoted at the link read:
A wonderful family and friends from Utah got caught between two vicious drug cartels, who were shooting at each other, with the result being many great American people killed, including young children, and some missing. If Mexico needs or requests help in cleaning out these monsters, the United States stands ready, willing & able to get involved and do the job quickly and effectively. The great new President of Mexico has made this a big issue, but the cartels have become so large and powerful that you sometimes need an army to defeat an army! This is the time for Mexico, with the help of the United States, to wage WAR on the drug cartels and wipe them off the face of the earth. We merely await a call from your great new president!The quotes around "war" in the Fox News headline are not scare quotes. They are quote quotes. Trump said "WAR" and he means literally war. I say that because: 1. He put the word in all caps, 2. The phrase "you sometimes need an army to defeat an army," and 3. "wipe them off the face of the earth."
ADDED: The NYT has a long article about the massacre, "At Least 9 Members of Mormon Family in Mexico Are Killed in Ambush."
Members of the LeBarón family, dual Mexican and American citizens who have lived in a fundamentalist Mormon community in the border region for decades, were traveling in three separate vehicles when the gunmen attacked, several family members said. They described a terrifying scene in which one child was gunned down while running away, while others were trapped inside a burning car.The cousin of the women is quoted: “When you know there are babies tied in a car seat that are burning because of some twisted evil that’s in this world... it’s just hard to cope with that.... We need the Mexican people to say at some point, we’ve had enough... We need accountability; we don’t have that on any level."
The NYT links to this video at Facebook, which includes this text:
To the citizens of the United States Of America, Mexico and to HUMAN BEINGS across the world....THIS IS A DEVELOPING STORY THAT IS HAPPENING NOW..NEW DETAILS ARE ARRIVING BY THE SECOND....THIS IS ONGOING. AS OF NOVEMBER 4TH 7:00 PM CENTRAL TIME.....it is with heavy hearts and unspeakable sadness we inform you that the 2 missing Mothers Christina Langford and Dawna Langford along with many of their precious INNOCENT children have been slaughtered and gone to their Rest. We've had no help from the powers and authorities that be as of yet ....one of the older boys escaped with 6 of his siblings and he was able to run home to La Mora Municipio Bavispe Sonora Mexico after leaving his wounded, bleeding, and bullet ridden brothers and sisters hiding behind trees from the ONGOING shootout between the cartels. Teenagers and adults have been scrambling into the mountains to find our loved ones..risking their very own lives....while help is nowhere to be found... GOD HELP US IN JESUS NAME WE PRAY.
Attention all of the World. We are a community of US citizens that live and operate between Mexico and the United States we are under attack as we speak by the cartels in Mexico... We have been petitioning the American embassies in Mexico all day long to no Avail... we need this to be shared and the whole world to witness the atrocious inhumane and barbaric acts that were committed against us today, Rhonita Miller and her 4 children were shot up and burned to death in this vehicle and at this very moment there are TWO more suburbans with 2 of our families totaling 2 wives and 10 children that are missing and/or kidnapped by the cartel..... We need help immediately!!..
Posts
103 comments:
Love this president
The War on Drugs is destined to fail. The demand will never abate. And it's too profitable a product not to find willing suppliers. So the best that can be hoped is to decreased the ancillary costs of illicit activity.
Right now, the costs within Mexico are too high. Something must give.
Not a bad idea. This certainly seems more pressing in terms of US interests than the endless Muslim Wars - at least in the short run.
While the halfwits in previous administrations were busy getting young Americans killed halfway around the world Mexico was fast becoming a failed state. Now we pay.
General Pershing, where have you gone. Think of it as a 20 mile buffer strip along a border full of bad guys. For which we could hire us some Turkish Mercenaries to clear it out , and then appoint Mitt Romney as Military Governor. The Mexicans probably see DJT as James Polk reincarnated.
He tweeted an offer to help. Seems the cartels are already at war with the Mexican government. El Chapo's son called his brother to attack and defeat the Mexican Army unit which caught him. That's a war going on. Trump has nothing to do with it.
The cartels actually have declared real war on the Mexican gov't. And so far, they've been winning
So "war" is the correct term here.
And "war", as in "US military goes in and kills a lot of people while breaking their things" should be exactly what Trump is promising
I thought Trump was supposed to be the smartest President of 'em all, and yet here he is getting ready to escalate the War on Drugs...a policy which is the biggest mistake of 'em all.
Once again...he's NOT wrong. They are MONSTERS...and keeping the border open, opens it up for them to come here. The cartels ambushed the Mexican Police in September. We need to wake up!! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcjRXcVqnOY
Our oldest son has a friend from high school who is a cousin of one of the mothers who were murdered. We read and were updated by our son about this when we were traveling home from SoCal yesterday. How heinous can these cartel animals get?
I wouldn't be opposed to a militay expendition into Mexico like the one 100 years ago to get Pancho Villa. It sure seems like the Mexican government has completely ceded control of the rural areas of the country to the cartels. Warlordism in a bordering country is obviously a national security problem that warrents intervention.
Mexico is a failed narco state and can't control it's borders.
Trump's moat with alligators is starting to sound like a good idea.
Lebanon on our southern border.
He's right. The cartels are a major security threat and aren't confined to MX. They are active in nearly every state in the US. 2017 Map. And these are just Mexican cartels. The Medellin, one of the most powerful, is Colombian.
There can be no doubt that at some point there will have to be US military and intelligence intervention in the Northern regions of Mexico where the cartels have total control.
This is the one border where US forces should be deployed to create and secure a buffer zone.
The most important intelligence aspect of such an engagement is that we have thousands of current service members who have family members in just those regions, a massive embedded base of American citizens who are fluent and culturally intimate with all scenarios across all points along the Southern border, so instead of being in the hinterlands of Afghanistan and Iraq and Syria et al we are in our backyard with all degrees of deep understanding.
The pushback will be that the US will be engaging in an imperial adventure and once established will never leave. The alternative to this argument is that the northern areas of Mexico remain forever an ever increasingly Cartel controlled area with all that that entails.
Choose.
We have an AUMF against terrorists so why not an AUMF against the drug cartels?
Mexico is a failed state, we do not need to enter another nation building exercise.
Close the border. Let them sort out their own problems, when they can demonstrate that they are a successful nation then we can reopen.
These cartels are fighting the Mexican an army - and winning.
That is some serious scary stuff.
Pelousy and her gang of Schitt's cry tears of sadness for the MS-13 gangs. Poor murderous thugs. How can we grant them free heathcare?
Almost unthinkable: US armed forces being used to protect the nation's border region.
Are we sure cartel violence is not an elite scheme to make all of Mexico qualify for asylum in the U.S.?
Anyway, I'm waiting for progs to comment on Trump calling the lefty pres "great."
Birkel made some unrelated point about something unrelated...
Birkel; Please TRY to pay attention!
We're not talking about a "war on drugs", we're talking about a WAR with the cartels
You still won't see the difference, on account of because of the fact you're not trying.
Here's something that could help you, IF you'd try:
The LAST time that America went to WAR in Mexico
I KNOW that won't help, and that; instead, you'll repeat your talking points about demand. But, That's 'cause you're Stupid; sorry!
The smartest thing the president of Mexico could do right now is accept Trump's offer. Unfortunately given our countries' history, he probably won't.
"Perdicaris alive or Raisuli dead."
The drug cartels are probably major Democrat donors so I don't expect the Congress to do much.
I always thought a fence wasn't the best idea. 100,000+ heavily armed National Guardsmen (ground troops and air assets) a much better idea. Add in a 20 mile buffer zone and we'd be good to go.
I had the impression the Mormons as a whole have been in the NeverTrumper camp. It will be interesting to see how this plays out.
instead of cartel how about "Global International Big Pharma"
which they would be if drugs were legalized
I'm just waiting for the Democrats to come out in support of the cartels, suggesting they provide valuable employment to the Mexican people and security from the inept government.
Conservative commentator Katie Pavich had the BEST tweet of all "Huh, I wonder where the cartels got their guns...cc: @EricHolder
There is precedent: the Mexican Expedition of March 14, 1916, to February 7, 1917, led by “Black Jack” Pershing.
We will have to deal with this eventually. Mexico as a country is collapsing- the central government there basically controls Mexico City, the surrounding towns today, and little else.
I definitely don't favor troops in Mexican territory, but the border with large sections of Mexico will eventually have to be militarized and patrolled. The main problem, though, is that these cartels have a large presence already in a lot of American cities.
If we "end the war on drugs," that means plenty of unregulated heroin, fent and other groovy stuff for everyone, right? Because there is always a cheaper black market. Pot legalization has shown us that.
Anyway, I'm old, no kids, so I'm down with it.
I always thought a fence wasn't the best idea. 100,000+ heavily armed National Guardsmen (ground troops and air assets) a much better idea. Add in a 20 mile buffer zone and we'd be good to go.
There's no way that you can maintain that sort of military presence without a massive expenditure, which would never last.
This criminal clan of polygamists has had beef with the cartels for years:
"The LeBarons are descendants of Mormons who moved to Mexico in 1924, after disagreeing with the central church over polygamy. For decades, they lived quietly in farming communities, maintaining close ties with the United States and speaking both Spanish and English.
But their relative wealth made them targets of extortion and kidnapping when organized-crime groups began to assert themselves in northern Mexico. In 2009, a prominent member of the clan, Benjamin LeBaron, 31, was shot dead near his community in northern Mexico. He had publicly denounced the drug traffickers, who had earlier abducted his younger brother, demanding a $1 million ransom. (The family refused to pay). The killers left a message saying they were retaliating for LeBaron’s activism."
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/at-least-seven-members-of-mormon-family-brutally-killed-in-northern-mexico/2019/11/05/d303e448-ffbb-11e9-9518-1e76abc088b6_story.html
Why do I say they are criminals? Fun read about their murderous hijinks on Wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ervil_LeBaron#Killings
traditional guy at 9:11--you nailed it.
Trump means a word literally when he puts it in all caps. Good to know.
One of those women was from Queen Creek here in Maricopa County. Zero coverage on the local NPR station this morning. (Which I only listen to because some of my Hillary! worshiping family members demand that we do.)
The article just says “fundamentalist mormons.” Is that code for polygamists? The people who left Utah after the mainstream LDS changed their practice? The people who kick out their 18-yo males so the old guys can keep on pedophilin’?
Makes them a little less sympathetic victims....
JSM
I'm struggling to understand this story. Were the Americans living in Mexico? I can't access the NYT story but this comment "Attention all of the World. We are a community of US citizens that live and operate between Mexico and the United States we are under attack as we speak by the cartels in Mexico"
leads me to guess they were in Mexico but what does it mean to live and operate between Mexico and the US? Were they assisting in border crossings? Helping the dispossessed? I am assuming missionaries but what would be the cartel's interest be in slaughtering innocent women and children. Just a horrible heartbreaking story.
This will only get worse if the US acts as a safety valve by allowing people to avoid things by fleeing across the border.
I'm struggling to understand this story. Were the Americans living in Mexico? I can't access the NYT story but this comment "Attention all of the World. We are a community of US citizens that live and operate between Mexico and the United States we are under attack as we speak by the cartels in Mexico"
leads me to guess they were in Mexico but what does it mean to live and operate between Mexico and the US? Were they assisting in border crossings? Helping the dispossessed? I am assuming missionaries but what would be the cartel's interest be in slaughtering innocent women and children. Just a horrible heartbreaking story.
There are Mormon communities in Mexico with close ties (family, religious) to communities in the US. Some members travel between the two. And the cartel may have killed them for any number of reasons, including random violence. These are not nice people, but vicious savages who prey on the weak.
Guarantee some will claim USA did the deed in order to instigate a war with cartels.
Probably show up on twitter, or NYT comments on story first, followed by Joy Beher on The View .
Were the Americans living in Mexico?
There's a long history of American Mormons living in Mexico. I believe even Mitt Romney did for a while.
US can't protect them, Mexico won't. Perdacaris Alive or the Raizuli Dead is so yesterday. Speaking of yesterday, Dainties?
I am assuming missionaries but what would be the cartel's interest be in slaughtering innocent women and children. Just a horrible heartbreaking story.
They were apparently traveling in a convoy of SUVs and were mistaken for rival cartel members.
Wait, so how many MEXICANS have been killed by the Drug Cartels? Thousands? But now that 8 Mexican-Americans were killed its "WAR"? Really?
Certainly, we should help the Mexican Government anyway we can. But it seems less a matter of the Mexican Army lacking arms, and more a matter of corruption and no political will in Mexico to stop the Cartels. And it'd be nice to know some details about how and why the Cartels are running free in Mexico, but our Media Masters would rather write about the Ukraine.
I thought Trump was supposed to be the smartest President of 'em all, and yet here he is getting ready to escalate the War on Drugs...a policy which is the biggest mistake of 'em all.
Purplepenguin shows an appalling lack of understanding of this subject. The cartels are about much more than drugs. They are a military entity with immense control over not just drug trafficking but political power. They are a direct threat to our security.
Nick: That's some family history.
Romneys father was born there, in 1907.
"that means plenty of unregulated heroin, fent and other groovy stuff for everyone, right?"
We already have that.
The "war on the drug cartels" is not in any way the same as, or even in any way even remotely related to, the "war on drugs."
I definitely don't favor troops in Mexican territory, but the border with large sections of Mexico will eventually have to be militarized and patrolled. The main problem, though, is that these cartels have a large presence already in a lot of American cities.
The solution, if there is one, would be a fence with sensors and rapid response teams. Then teams would need to kill anyone found at the intrusion.
As for cities, put the cops back to work. Let the fools in NYC and Portland deal with it.
Mitt Romney's father, who ran for President back in the 60's, was born in Mexico.
His detractors, particularly the ultra-right "Manchester Union Leader" newspaper in New Hampshire, called him "Chihuahua George".
Mexican Navy seizes 25 tons of fentanyl from China
Makes them a little less sympathetic victims....
Especially the kids, right?
purplepenquin: "I thought Trump was supposed to be the smartest President of 'em all, and yet here he is getting ready to escalate the War on Drugs...a policy which is the biggest mistake of 'em all."
LOLOLOLOL
How can you be this stupid? I mean, seriously, how can you be this dense?
Do you really think Trump is referring to escalating the failed War on Drugs policing/interdiction nonsense?
He means WAR, like destroying the ISIS Caliphate, which will be necessary as the Cartels have already defeated the Mexican government and its forces.
Tradguy captures it much better than I did in his 9:11 comment.
gilbar said:
"Birkel; Please TRY to pay attention!
We're not talking about a "war on drugs", we're talking about a WAR with the cartels
You still won't see the difference, on account of because of the fact you're not trying."
Put me in the stupid category also. I followed the 1917 link you posted and failed to see the parallels. They are DRUG cartels. It's where the money is. And I don't see how ALMO invites the US military in. Exactly the opposite of what he ran on.
While I don't think Birkel's comment was succinct, I agree with him that supply follows demand. Are you arguing that drugs have nothing to do with this?? How is a war on the cartels not a war on drugs? If it is just about corruption in Mexico what is the logic for US military intervention?
Yeah, JSM, the six children that were murdered aren't sympathetic at all. You're a piece of ... work.
At least Birkel is consistent. He doesn’t want US troops used abroad. The other Trumpkins here though pivot instantly from “Fuck the Kurds” to “invade Mexico”.
I think there is a case to be made. This isn’t about the drug war so much as it is about Mexico collapsing. Obviously the default choice should be to not interfere. But I want to see some serious arguments for action. Maybe Trumpis right, maybe not. I don’t know yet.
We're all warmed up from destroying the caliphate.
I'm sure the Mexican police and military can do wonderful things when backed by US airpower and Tomahawks.
Of course we'll be overrun by refugees since we got a late start building the wall.
But if the government collapses from lack of cartel money, we can roll in our tanks to keep the oilfields for the people.
The problem with winning a total war against Mexico is that it would then become a US territory, which for us would be a great loss.
Do you really think Trump is referring to escalating the failed War on Drugs policing/interdiction nonsense?
Real war shows airstrikes on CNN.
An actual war on poverty would level public housing.
The War on Drugs is a good policy 'cause otherwise we'd have too many unregulated drugs?
The "Drug Cartels" have nothing to do with "drugs", and thus a war against them wouldn't have anything to do with the War on Drugs? And anything who thinks otherwise is stupid and dense?
*rolls eyes*
AlwaysTrumpers are always willing to spew a lotta nonsense in order to constantly&continuously support their man.
Leave the Middle East and Africa! Punitive raids into Mexico. Drone strikes on Indian call centers.
Pick one cartel. Target it relentlessly. Bomb it's locations, special forces find and kill it's leaders. Even get help from it's competitors. No trials. Wipe that one cartel out, and then ask who is next?
"instead of cartel how about "Global International Big Pharma"
which they would be if drugs were legalized"
The fact that there are still significant black market weed sales in Colorado and California serves to place that in doubt.
Actually, I think the war on poverty was the biggest mistake of all. It cost us more, and the results are just as counterproductive. We need to make poverty legal in all 50 states.
I wonder if they're related to this wildman:
"Ervil Morrell LeBaron (February 22, 1925 – August 15, 1981) was the leader of a polygamous Mormon fundamentalist group who ordered the killings of many of his opponents, using the religious doctrine of blood atonement to justify the murders. He was sentenced to life in prison for orchestrating the murder of an opponent, and died there."
".... Alma Dayer LeBaron, Sr. ... in 1924 moved his family, which included his two wives and eight children, to northern Mexico. There, the family started a farm called "Colonia LeBaron" in Galeana, Chihuahua."
Nobody really cares if they sell drugs, what we want stopped is the murder, corruption, and human trafficking, and to repair a failed state on our border. That's why it's not a war on drugs. If that was what we were after why would we wage it in Mexico. We could just build a wall.
Watch as Trump gets Democrats to support murdering drug cartels now. He already got them to support MS-13 and ISIS leaders. Maybe he could attack GOP congressmen, praise the Dems, and get his majority back.
The other Trumpkins here though pivot instantly from “Fuck the Kurds” to “invade Mexico”.
Can't help but wonder how many of these people who are dancing along to the war drums now being beaten by our President have actually served in the military...'cause seems to always be the "well, I would've enlisted but for (whatever reasons)" that yells "charge!!" the loudest.
Nick Carter said...
Thanks for the extra info.
Ken B, 11:13:
"The other Trumpkins here though pivot instantly from 'Fuck the Kurds' to 'invade Mexico'."
Setting aside "Trumpkins": It is not illogical or self-contradictory to say, I do not support the stationing of the US military overseas to protect non-Americans. I do support the use of the US military in ruthless punitive raids to retaliate for the murder of Americans.
It's a position. Doesn't happen to be mine, but no pivot is required. I think your snark and implicit "gotcha" are misplaced.
purplepenquin, 11:59:
Well, by your questions I guess I'm be qualified to support the President, if I agree with him. But tell me, what did you have to do to qualify to disagree? Or does this only work one way?
In my lifetime, there has never been an ongoing war I could get behind. Short engagements, sure. But lasting wars, not so much. And mine is a military family and I generally find myself pro-military involvement but usually disagree with the strategy or approach being employed. Even the GWOT made sense in theory but putting enormous numbers of our soldiers overseas to deliver it was not the right approach.
The US declaring war on the cartels is something I can get behind. They are inside our country, they have just shown more power over our neighboring country than it's government, and they have expanded from drugs into many other businesses (I.e. Avocado's). They hold land, have massive amounts of soldiers, and are a threat on a nation-level. They also operate FAR MORE in the open than terrorist organizations, comparatively speaking.
Doesn't mean it would be a clean war and the objectives would have to be clear cut. But this threat can't be limited DEA raids and occasional small skirmishes and CIA playground shit.....cartels need to be dealt with in a way that diminishes their potential for decades to come.
In principle, I agree with the suggestions above of having armed personnel on the border to forcibly repel invaders; however, the agonized shrieks from the SJW's at the first drop of blood on US soil will make the complaints about putting children in cages pale by comparison. The resistance to any use of force will reverberate throughout the mass media and all elements of the left. An expedition into the Mexican heartland coupled with a strong and complete wall has more chance of success, success defined as the central Mexican government being able to finally control the gangsters inside its borders.
An important part of emigration reform to mitigate the progress of immigration reform and collateral damage at both ends of the bridge and throughout is a good neighbor policy (e.g. self-defense).
Nick Carter said...
"This criminal clan of polygamists..."
It's clear that the actions of a man who died in 1981 justify burning those children alive.
Go to Hell, Nick.
Perhaps if Mexico had a strong 2A equivalent....
Purplepenguin: "Can't help but wonder how many of these people who are dancing along to the war drums now being beaten by our President have actually served in the military...'cause seems to always be the "well, I would've enlisted but for (whatever reasons)" that yells "charge!!" the loudest."
A helluva lot more of us served than you lefties who are screaming for US troops to be stationed in Syria protecting their Turkey/Syria border and Kurdish regional boundaries.
And one of these scenarios just happens to border the US with our largest neighbor and directly impacts all of America.
But then again, I fully expected you to be at least this stupid, and you did not disappoint.
I thought Trump was supposed to be the smartest President of 'em all, and yet here he is getting ready to escalate the War on Drugs...a policy which is the biggest mistake of 'em all. - PP
Instead of throwing a bunch of snark, maybe you could offer a solution?
The other Trumpkins here though pivot instantly from “Fuck the Kurds” to “invade Mexico”.
Do we share a border with Syria? Have we been dealing with invading hordes from Syria for the last five, six decades? Yes? OK, then. Good analogy. Appreciated.
AlwaysTrumpers are always willing to spew a lotta nonsense in order to constantly&continuously support their man.
PP is about to show us his/her? DD 214.
Lefties want war in Syria but open borders here at home. Wonder why ?
"Nobody really cares if they sell drugs,"
Since this is their main source of income I do.
"what we want stopped is the murder,"
Assuming you mean of American citizens? Fix the immigration system. Build the wall. Keep the criminals out, or pass laws that deter them. Harsh laws.
"corruption,"
How do you go about stopping corruption in Mexico? It's built into their system, and I'm not into nation building even on our borders.
"and human trafficking,"
Trump has made some strides toward this.
"and to repair a failed state on our border."
How? Verbal demands and threats military or economic? Nafta was supposed to help with some of this by basically handing them our money and our jobs. And I doubt if you're going to get much cooperation from Mexico.
"That's why it's not a war on drugs."
I think this is boiling down to semantics, but they are called drug lords for a reason. It ain't Nancy Reagan's 'war on drugs' true, but taking the lucrative drug money away from them is the means of stopping them. That also stops a lot of the corruption. Killing the top brass of the cartels isn't going to stop the problems in Mexico. Replacements are a dime a dozen.
"If that was what we were after why would we wage it in Mexico. We could just build a wall."
Unless ALMO or some future President addresses their problems in a realistic manner or asks for our help I think the wall is all we've got. And we don't even have that.
*Note that when I say build the wall the physical presence of a barrier is only a small part of it. Ports of entry, anchor babies, chain migration, etc. are all a part of 'the wall' to me.
My point is that unless you address the drug trade, the money and power that fuels the ills of corruption within Mexico, you have zero chance of changing everything above. It may not be a war on drugs, but is a drug war we are talking about. The players are incidental.
If Trump declares war on the cartels it will open a new front in the deep state war in Trump. The deep state DEA and ATF will be activated.
The ATF has to hide the US weapons they sold to the cartels and the DEA ain't no way giving up their drugs and prostitute parties. Those are lit!
JPS
Yes, it is arguable. That is why I said it is arguable. But we haven’t heard any detailed analysis yet, there has been no discussion at all and the Trumpkins like Jim are hung ho already. So I am willing to be persuaded, if a case can be made. The Trumpkins are unwilling to be persuaded no matter what. They just fall in line.
A quick search suggests cartel atrocities are not new or unusual:
Shocking photos, headlines highlight the brutality of Mexican cartels in 2017
Female beheading in Mexico Video
As Nick Carter notes, WaPo headline emphasizes the polygamy angle. To me it is evidence of how crazy we have gotten with TDS and whatever its opposite is (antiTDS?) and political correctness that the conversation seems to involve questions like these:
Women and children have been murdered.
1. on the surface that seems like a bad thing, except Trump deplores it, so we have the options of (a) supporting Trump or (b) condoning murder of women and children.
2. And the women and children killed were Mormons, who are typically conservative politically, and vote Republican, and years ago were not sympathetic to black people (or something). (And more weirdness about underwear, I don't understand).
3. And these particular women (and their children) were complicit in subjugation of women (through polygamy), so while not saying they deserved it, they are less sympathetic victims.
4. The Romney connection further complicates things because we hate Romney (as an Obama opponent) and love Romney (as a Trump opponent).
5. The immigration connection further complicates things. Mormons emigrated because they were persecuted (in the US) on the basis of religion. Guatemalans who seek asylum in the US because they were persecuted or feared for their lives are worthy of sympathy. But are not those Mormon immigrants to Mexico equally worthy of sympathy? (except point 3 above). And when sympathetic immigrants reach the US and suffer hardship (say not enough toilets in the holding facilities) they are worthy of sympathy, right? But what about immigrants who reach Mexico and suffer hardship (say being killed by drug cartels)? Are they not also worthy of sympathy? Except, see point 1.
Tell ya what's gonna happen.
Dead Mexicans will show up and cartel will say these are the rogue bad guys, we handled the problem.
Full Moon said...
cartel atrocities are not new or unusual
Totally True! Here's a pic from a few years back
Priests swinging from telegraph poles
Here's some background, about the atrocities La Cristiada War
Ken B thinks "Jim at" is hung. Good to know.
The revenue of the drug cartels comes from drugs. Those drug prices are artificially high because of a restriction of supply. That means there are incentives to break laws. Those incentives will prove irresistible to some people. Argue any of those points you like, detractors of mine.
The violence in Mexico is predictable. Criminals tend to be more likely to commit violence. Protecting one's assets in a relatively lawless environment requires violence. Protecting turf requires violence. Go ahead and argue any of these points.
Cartels are likely already bribing US officials. Criminal networks always try to co-opt the criminal justice system. Many within the CJ system are underpaid and susceptible to bribery.
Solutions: harden the border, prosecute the criminals, and trace the bribes/money laundering.
pacwest said...
Are you arguing that drugs have nothing to do with this?? How is a war on the cartels not a war on drugs?
Serious Question:
Was/Is! our war in Afghanistan a war on drugs?
How about the Cold war?
What about the European Theater of Operations in WWII?
Each of those Opponents were MAJOR drug producers Too.
To repeat, i'm asking YOU How is our war on the Afghani's NOT a war on drugs (according to You)
"To repeat, i'm asking YOU How is our war on the Afghani's NOT a war on drugs (according to You)"
Afganistan, Cold War, WW2 had primary reasons other than drugs for the conflicts. We are dealing with Drug Cartels in northern Mexico. Drug War. Drugs make them both powerful, and harmful. Semantics I guess. If ALMO doesn't act either alone or with help a bigly wall is the only other option. For Trump to invade Mexico would be political suicide.
I like Birkel's take on this.
At this rate, the Texicans instead of letting Beto confiscate their AR-15s will be converting them to full automatic.
Ken B: "So I am willing to be persuaded, if a case can be made. The Trumpkins are unwilling to be persuaded no matter what. They just fall in line."
This issue long predates Trump and aggressive buffer zone creation actions have long been one recommended strategy for minimizing the impact to US citizenry in terms of border violence and interdiction of drugs/human smuggling into the US.
But for Ken B, no problems pre-exist Trump and every action taken by Trump is militarily wrong, especially the ones that deviate from approved GOPe recommendations.
Whatever we do, we cannot deviate 1 iota from whatever Max Boot and the rest of those idiots are blathering about.
The Taliban supported its criminal enterprise with the sale of opiates. Our "war on drugs" does, inevitably, cause the prices of opiates to be artificially high. Make an argument otherwise. I'll wait.
North Korea, Turkey, Russia, Iran, Mexico, and all the rest exploit the black market opportunity. Another fact. Government intervention creates market distortion with unintended consequences. Why are drugs different than any other situation involving government intervention?
We can accept the unintended consequences or deny them.
Women killed in Mexican cartel murders had alleged ties to sex cult Nxivm
per NY Post
Apparently not:
https://mobile.twitter.com/alimhaider/status/1191891250913431553
were complicit in subjugation of women (through polygamy), so while not saying they deserved it, they are less sympathetic victims
It's a minority relationship structure that works for some men and women. #NoJudgment #NoLabels #LoveWins, right?
Lefties want war in Syria but open borders here at home. Wonder why?
Labor arbitrage, democratic gerrymandering, and redistributive change. Across the pond, there was snatching defeat from the jaws of victory in a quid pro quo and payments to Iran. That and the Libya-Rebel, Jihadist, ISIS Affair and abandoning Americans that must have been deemed a burden.
Well, step one is to classify the cartels as terrorist/criminal organizations with "liberated" territory in Mexico. Then get an AUMF.
Declaring war would change a lot of dynamics for the better. We would be taking the problems of Mexico to Mexico, not letting them fester in our communities. I live in a neighborhood where several households are multiple, transient men, now mostly from Central and South America. Reality is, they aren't even coming here for the jobs anymore: more and more of it is establishing sex trafficking, human trafficking of people they oppress from their own cultures, and drug trade. The police known it. The politicians deny it. The Chamber desires it.
So we're already invaded and already at war. Now imagine if we fought that war. I know a dozen illegals very well from construction, restaurant, and refugee placement work. I'm personal friends six of them. They all say the new waves of illegals include more criminal loners ane criminal gangs. Who but Trump had the nerve to say that? Arrest and crime records bear this out here, and of course anyone can see it in Mexico.
We could help liberate decent Mexicans from these animal drug cartels. Of course there would be the pissing and whining from the leftitarian ignoramuses who think everything is about their hobbyhorse and some PBS miniseries they saw through a cloud of pot smoke once. Screw 'em. They're louder than their actual numbers.
I'm hardly war hungry. But when our pockets are picked by the doubling of school costs due to bilingual education; literary is cratering among schoolchildren; the presence of mass numbers of illegals depletes our county and state taxes, federal medicaid and medicare, hospital budgets, law enforcement, schools, and property values while devastating the wages and job stability for the working classes, we are at war already. Let's conflate the issues to tell the truth for once. Our military is willing to fight in its own backyard in a way that doesn't resemble the fatigue of Middle East adventures. And it is a humanitarian issue as well. For all of us.
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