October 9, 2019
What if the Senate really does produce a supermajority to convict Trump and ousts him from office? What happens next?
I think the entire theater of impeachment is taking place within the false security that the Senate will never be able to convict. But what if the momentum gets going and 2/3 of the Senators vote to convict? Yes, Pence becomes President, but what I mean is: What happens to the American people who voted Trump into office and who — from the moment they won — have had the experience of seeing their President treated like a big, horrible mistake? Their choice was never honored, never treated as respectable. They got to see that their opinion never mattered and was never supposed to prevail. And what will Trump do? Freed from the responsibilities of the presidency and past all the fighting of the impeachment battle, he won't hide away. He will be out and about, energized and inventing more new ways of being a politician in America, and he will have an immense audience, overshadowing what any other political candidate can do. The new temptation will be to prosecute him for crimes, but, again, how will this affect the millions of people who thought they won the election and then saw their victory taken away?
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It'll be the start of the third or fourth reconstruction. Probably about as successful as the first (or Versailles from an international example of totally f'ing up a "victory").
The short answer is likely rioting and civil disobedience followed by the death of the Republican party.
All of those reasons are why he won't get removed from office. They need 67, and I can't fathom 20 GOP senators voting to remove the president.
But if it did happen, I'd expect something more along the lines of a civil war than just the American people standing back, throwing up their hands and saying "our vote doesn't count".
This isn't Europe. You'd see a backlash not seen since the mid 1800's.
Althouse attempts to create a false identity between Trump and the voters who, with varying degrees of enthusiasm, voted for Trump.
Trump is a pig. His voters represent a broad swathe of humanity, just like Democratic voters. They are not, in general, members of a cult.
How big is the Trump voter core? 30-40% of voters? I've never seen such a significant number of people treated with such utter contempt by both parties. Each and every Dem candidate is arrayed against them; most Republicans are afraid to admit they support Trump -- with a few notable exceptions.
They got to see that their opinion never mattered and was never supposed to prevail.
That message was delivered long ago.
Removal from office says “won’t be allowed to prevail, no matter the circumstances”.
It says they are no longer citizens, but subjects.
The will be blood. First regular America sent the Tea Party. When that was eviscerated they sent Trump. If the swamp removes Trump, the next step won't be pretty.
I spot the hidden premise! Do you see it? Here: “What happens to the American people who”.
It’s easy to see once it’s pointed out, right?
People. There were no *people* who voted for Trump, just deplorables. You don’t worry when they get upset. It’s good for the occasional laugh actually. And some of the might learn something, the salvageable ones.
The Senate can vote to remove from office and they can also vote to prohibit the convicted person from ever holding office again. It is two votes. Ask Alcee Hastings.
@Psota, depends on if the penalty includes barring from future office. They didn't for Hastings, probably would for Trump. I actually think it more likely mitt and the weak sisters will get a conviction with ONLY barring from running a some sort of stupid party bargain.
The cycle of revenge will be fierce and relentless.
The Senate can vote to remove from office and they can also vote to prohibit the convicted person from ever holding office again. It is two votes. Ask Alcee Hastings.
What happens Ann is this. EVER STINKING REPUBLICAN SENATOR WHO VOTED FOR IMPEACHMENT WILL BE VOTED OUT OF OFFICE.
And that is what will happen if they do the 'unthinkable'.
Sad to say, but lefties don’t think that far ahead.
I think the follow up question is: Will the haters be satisfied with their "victory" or will they attempt to remove Pence starting the next morning (if they wait that long)?
ARM says, in his usual substanceless tone:
His voters represent a broad swathe of humanity, just like Democratic voters. They are not, in general, members of a cult.
If you think that when he gets removed from office and that broad swathe is just going to sit there and take it, boy do you have another thing coming.
Cold civil war goes hot.
Trump voters already know their opinions aren't "honored, never treated as respectable."
Trump's fate doesn't change that. If he is removed from office for purely political reasons it'll do such a blow to our nation it may not recover for a generation.
Prosecute him for what crimes? I've not read anything outlining what criminal statute he may have violated. Did I miss something?
If both chambers successfully impeach a president who is actually quite popular it would essentially be subverting the will of the American voter. That would not be good for anyone. It would in fact be a disaster for America. I don't know if a civil war would actually happen, but there would be a reckoning.
Fortunately this scenario is pretty unlikely at the moment.
You never want to leave your opponent with no good options. You want to manage his trajectory so he doesn’t go all jihad on you. Here? Dems don't seem to have thought about that. After all, thinking is hard work. You have to put your feelings aside and imagine how your opponent feels, thinks, perceives his/her options. I don’t think Dems can do that well. Or maybe their game is just too deep for me.
I think the follow up question is: Will the haters be satisfied with their "victory" or will they attempt to remove Pence starting the next morning (if they wait that long)?
No, they'll immediately go after Pence. IIRC, some Dems have already admitted that they're also looking into it.
Whether or not the GOP goes along with it would remain to be seen.
Soap box
Ballot box
Jury box
Ammo box
They've ignored the first, and corrupted the second and third. For the 63 million people who voted for Trump last time, and God only knows how many more who plan to join us next time, there aren't going to be very many options left once the establishment tells us that peaceful and effective engagement in the democratic process is off the table.
Prosecute him for what crimes? I've not read anything outlining what criminal statute he may have violated. Did I miss something?
He violated the OrangeManBad clause of the Constitution.
But Pence knew about... the phone call.... He was there! lurking... listening.
He's guilty! Obstruction of Justice! Democracy Dies in Darkness!
Off with his head.
Nancy is president. She yields to Hillary. Hillary didn't lose after all! Amazing!
It means the swamp wins. Oh, I know this is a 'trigger' post meant to elicit all kinds of violent rhetoric by Trump supporters. My favorite scenario would be that disaffected citizens from around the world--i.e., those being spurned by their elitist, globalist leaders--would gather here to Make America Great Again. I don't see Trump remaining on the political scene at all but he at least got the ball rolling.
The GOP controls the senate, which means they will be predisposed to support Trump and it won't be a sham trial. There will have to be something serious and of substance to overcome that predisposition with a 2/3 majority.
Clinton got impeached with a GOP house and the Senate, with a slight GOP majority, couldn't even get a simple majority on any of the counts of impeachment.
Trump if convicted and ousted from office would most likely run again and could very well win. Clinton probably could have won a third term is the Constitution allowed him to run again.
What happens? Many, many bad things. Bad things for Dems. Bad things for Republicans.
You don't want to live in a country where a nasty hack like Schiff can conspire with Deep State actors to fabricate a flimsy impeachment case, use the media megaphone to cow 20 Republican senators into submission and successfully remove a president from office.
That would be a bleak, bleak outcome. The Dems would have 'won' perhaps the most Pyrrhic victory since . . . Pyrrhus.
I doubt there will be rioting. There may be some grumbling, shouting, even some marching with picket signs, but rioting is mostly a lefty thing.
The result of impeachment will be a huge number of Americans who will never consider voting for a Democrat ever again.
Prosecuting him for crimes is another whole kettle of fish since the normal rules of law apply. It's not a political act like impeachment.
An impeached and removed Trump would be a force of nature like we've never seen in American politics.
Essentially we would be ushering in a system that would more resemble the parliamentary system seem in many parts of the world.
Which ever aggrieved party that is in control will just call a “no confidence vote”. Our normal 4 year election cycle will cease to exist.
When I say Democrat, I also mean any RINO.
Re: ARM:
Trump is a pig. His voters represent a broad swathe of humanity, just like Democratic voters. They are not, in general, members of a cult.
No, they're not. I don't think Trump voters' affection for Trump is anywhere near as fervent as he himself thinks it is. But it's a marriage of convenience -- he's willing to fight for the policies (like trade restriction and control of illegal immigration) that matter to a lot of them, and he is basically the only major politician in America today who is willing to fight for them, in the face of opposition cries that he's a racist for wanting to control illegal immigration.
And it's clear that his opponents don't hate him primarily because of this Ukraine nonsense, or even the Russia nonsense -- that's obviously just a pretext. They hated and feared him long before either of these stories came out. They hate him because he's coarse, because he made them look like idiots when he won the election, and because he supports policies that benefit the working class at their expense. And also now because he supported elimination of the SALT deduction, which has had the effect of raising tax on a lot of high income professionals.
Impeaching him on these pretexts does send the message that even if you do things by the book and win elections, the professional class will do whatever it takes to prevent you from having a voice. We're seeing this in Britain too. It's embarrassing.
Hollywood has Nancy by the short-hairs.
'Looksie here, Nancy - you don't get Trump Impeached, the Hollywood money dries up.
You got that, Nancy?'
I asked this before and still don't know the answer. Yes, Senate conviction removes him from office, but does it bar him from running for (re)election.
30 to 40 % of Americans
Remember! We have to bend over backwards to appease....
Blacks 10%
Hispanics 14%
Lgtbync's 4%
But 30-40%?
Screw THEM, right?
They're just the people with all the rifles
Don't expect the public to ever respect the results of another election. Seems all we have to do, if we don't like the outcome, is scream ourselves blue and keep trying every possible maneuver - legal or otherwise - until we find something that finally does the trick.
We're on very dangerous ground here. The people are losing respect for our institutions. Our government is losing the consent of the governed. We're surrounded by powerful knaves and fools who still think they can demand respect, even while disregarding the voices of half the country and mocking those voters as easily ignored inferiors. It's as if no one in power has ever opened a history book to see how that sort of thing usually turns out.
If Trump gets impeached, he should run for president again. Impeachment is a political process, not a criminal one, and he's not term-limited so he could actually run for re-election again in 2024. Hmmm...I'm starting to talk myself into this. Wouldn't that be the mother of all backfires for Dems!
Don't assume Pence would be a pushover because he is a humble Christian man. There is such a thing as righteous anger. And he would be pretty much bulletproof since the Dems wouldn't dare impeach him with an angry Trump electorate out there.
Picture Pence as Mr. Inside to Trump's Mr. Outside.
If the Democrats quickly and successfully impeach Trump can run for President again? Imagine the uproar if he was first impeached and then elected a second time.
That said, I think the current impeachment effort will fail as Trump now uses the courts to push back against the current "informal" impeachment process. The Democrats are unwilling to put a formal impeachment to a vote, perhaps knowing the vote would fail. If Trump can tie the impeachment process up in the courts he can potentially drag it out for a year and have a powerful campaign issue: The do-nothing Democrat House that wants to use impeachment as a partisan tool.
But the real Democrat motivation for impeachment has to do with the origins of Russian collusion. AG Barr is closing in on the illegal acts that gave us the Special Counsel. The Democrats hope to be able to claim that Barr's investigation into the roots of the Russian collusion affair is vindictive Republican political payback for the noble Democrat impeachment efforts.
You think Trump will be taken out without 'bringing down the whole house'
a la (as another commenter put it) Samson ?
During the trial in the Senate, wont he get to subpoena anyone he wants and have them under oath?
Trump fights. 'Half' of Washington goes down with him. It would be cataclysmic, with the country/govt in disarray.
Adam Schitt(D) should be impeached. Removed. He is a liar and a total disgrace to the office he holds. Then he should be sued into a hole.
The MAN who was shot at by a leftwing lunatic Bernie Bro gets it.
I don't think that it's false security, and it seems a waste of time to consider what to do if an impossible event occurs.
it is a step too far. It is how revolutions, or civil wars begin. An earlier post stated that it would mark the end of the Republican Party. He's almost got it. The Republican Party of Mitt Romney, Jeff Flake, Ben Sasse, et. al. is already done. Those type of Republicans have been getting elected for the past 20 years by people who wanted more action- the people who eventually put Trump in the White House. They are done voting in the Romney's and Sasse's.
But don't kid yourself into thinking the Democrat Party is going on strong. It's also done. Like the Invasion of the Body Snatchers, the Dem Party has been overtaken, seemingly overnight, by a rabid mix of not-very-bright extreme Socialists and anti-Semites. it's a sickening mix. If you think the nation who elected the President is going to stand back and accept his removal by any means, you're mistaken. To think they'll be further asked to listen to and follow the dictates of Rashida Tlaib and her ilk- well...you don't want to see us go that far down that path.
Assuming that House impeaches before Christmas, and the Senate doesn't dilly-dally in beginning a trial:
1. I think it is likely to be in Trump's interest to draw out the trial over a long period, lasting into the summer and the political conventions. Even if a lot of Rep Senators are willing to vote "remove" I can't image they would do so without giving Trump every benefit of the doubt in terms of process.
2. So the actual vote takes place just before, or during or after the conventions. Even harder to imagine the Rep Senators hold to their intentions to vote "remove".
3. And possibly Trump-Pence is already the nominated team.
4. Removal of Trump creates a President Pence running as an incumbent with a new VP (Nikki Haley?).
5. Just weeks away from the election, it's hard to imagine incumbents in the House and Senate agreeing to leave the campaign trail in order to have an impeachment, trial and removal vote for then President Pence.
6. Would the Senate also agree to not approve a replacement VP (for the rest of the term) nominated by President Pence?
7. If you can accept (I think it's ridiculous) that all of these things occur, then why not take it one more step: Remove Pelosi as Speaker of the House and replace her with the Dem Presidential nominee (for purposes of illustration, Mayor Pete), so that Mayor Pete become President prior to the 2020 election, and runs as an incumbent.
I'd say that Trump being Impeached would call for a general strike.
But, given the nature of the situation, I think this would call for a special type of strike. I would put out a call for a general "Work-to-Rule" strike.
Speed limit is 65, drive at 64. Yellow lights mean slow down and stop, you actually slow down and stop. This activity requires a permit, fill out and submit the permit forms. Refuse to work until the permit is approved. You see a cop or bus making an illegal turn, call the local government ethics hotline. Missing Exit sign, bad railing on a handicap ramp, government building with blocked fire exits: report it. Local labor laws require 15 minute breaks every 4 hours, take your break, don't skip lunch, report all overtime.
Balfegor @ 9:22 - Exactly.
Trump V. Corrupt insider ChcukTodd-Stephanoplois-TheView-CorporateMedia-Hillary-Biden-Romney-FBI-CIA-Plame-Strozk-Brennan-Clapper-Comey-Mueller-Blasey-Ford-SchittShow.
Picture Trump leading a political movement with 60 million angry, highly motivated followers.
OK, read the whole thread. I think I have my answer now. Pretty reasoned commentary above considering the "red meat" nature of the post.
My thought is no - the left/dems won't be satisfied with victory. Just as the Terror followed the initial French revolution, let history be your guide. Not necessarily violence, but they will dial it up from eleven to twelve.
We will see what happens when the Saxon begins to hate.
Well nothing at all will happen. Because the Trump voters have jobs and families to support and are not raving fucking lunatics with nothing but time and politics on their hands. And because they are not assholes who will form a #Resistance the very next day and march around with absurd juvenile hats.
Either way (Trump impeached, Trump not impeached), it all trends in the same direction. Your hypo wonders how Team Trump reacts in the event that the Senate (meaning all Dems and 20 Rep senators) vote to convict. And you suggest that, if so, for Team Trump all hell breaks loose. That sounds right.
So, what happens if the House Dems don't vote to impeach (meaning that about 20 House Dems vote against it, assuming all Reps do as well)? Team Dem goes nuts (I know, we seem to be there already but ...), and all hell breaks loose.
There are some eternal optimists who expect (pray?) that the 2020 election will restore a bit of sanity to American politics. Regardless of the outcome, that seems the least likely outcome. Neither side is willing to accept the bona fides of the other -- it's become an exercise where the winner (however defined) expects total victory, with unconditional surrender being the only terms offered to the losing side. (You see that already, for example, in the way Senate traditions revolving around the filibuster are being abandoned and in the ominous noises about the need for Court-packing to reclaim the SCOTUS.) The areas where some form of compromise, with each side still sticking to its ideological views but recognizing that neither side commands an enduring majority, have become very small indeed.
Welcome to America, circa 1850s.
IMHO, in order to fully impeach a president without causing too much chaos by making it look like a legal coup, you'd have to get their approval rating well below 30%. You have to get a pretty clear overwhelming majority of Americans to agree that this particular orange man is indeed very bad. That just isn't going to happen based on the Ukraine call alone. The Dems and Trump haters need a hell of a lot more than just that.
Not necessarily violence, but they will dial it up from eleven to twelve.
They're already violent now.
The left wants revenge, and to humiliate the right. They've wanted it since before the 2016 election.
Kent Brockman reports "...leaving the Vice President in charge."
There will be no impeachment. The Democrats and their media flacks want to dirty Trump up the same way they did Kavanaugh. They don't have squat which would become widely known if there was a legitimate impeachment inquiry. Can you imagine a Trump lawyer publi8cly examining the impeachment witnesses?
This is all about muddying the waters for when the Barr/Durham/Horowitz reports come out. They are desperate. You can see it in their words actions.
rcpjr: If Trump gets impeached, he should run for president again. Impeachment is a political process, not a criminal one, and he's not term-limited so he could actually run for re-election again in 2024. Hmmm...I'm starting to talk myself into this. Wouldn't that be the mother of all backfires for Dems!
Once he gets elected a second time, he cannot be elected again. Regardless of how much time of either term he actually serves.
ARM, it's not about Trump - it's about the voters, and their votes. One doesn't have to have any affinity for Trump at all to realize that a political coup must not be tolerated.
If the establishment actually impeached Trump, especially if they impeached him for the "crime" of investigating corrupt behavior by other members of the establishment, the response would be "democracy is dead. our votes don't matter. If we want to matter, we will have to start killing people."
And then they will start killing people.
And since "they" make up a significant part of the police forces, and the military, and since the establishment mainly consists of people who couldn't properly handle a gun if their lives depended upon it, there will be a lot of dead people, and a lot of new members of Congress, the judiciary, and the press, a lot of new teachers and school administrators, and a lot of new business executives.
Don't know if there would be anything left of Hollywood to rebuild
Trump is a pig.
Really? Why? For fighting back? For making efforts to protect the American workers? For his efforts to end corruption? Please be more specific.
His voters represent a broad swathe of humanity,
Nice of you to notice.
just like Democratic voters.
Not at all! The Democrats are hollowed out — people at the bottom of the economic ladder and the filthy rich. Plus fools, idiots, and mal-educated.
They are not, in general, members of a cult.
No we aren’t. But the Dumbocrats are riddled with cults (e.g., Antifa).
Look, idiot, what Althouse is saying is that if the politicians of the two parties succeed in running Donald Trump out of town without making an undeniable and irrefutable case, they risk serious consequences that cannot be predicted. I can see that. Maybe Trump will lead a nonviolent political revolution. Maybe he will stay home at Mar-a-Largo and lick his wounds, but this seems much less likely. Maybe there will be violence. Maybe not. I can think of numerous Republican Senators who will lose primaries if they vote to convict: Ben Sasse, Joni Ernst to name two. Some will survive but lose in November. Some Democrats will lose in the general if they vote to convict, and I am not including Jones because he is a goner anyway (even if Moore wins the GOP nomination all over again). For instance Warner barely won five years ago against a Republican who ran a thoroughly lackluster campaign.
No, we’re not a cult. But we are humans. Deplorable humans in ARM’s view, but humans nevertheless.
Trump is President because whole bunches of people out here in flyover country saw firsthand the corruption of so many of the government agencies. From the customs guy at the Mexican border (our side) with his hand out, to the guy from the county Public Health Service want to “buy” some of your products and get a “discount” or the welfare caseworker sleeping with his “caseload”. We all saw it.
Prosecute him for what crimes?
He beat Hillary. And it was her turn!
Char Char Binks said...
I doubt there will be rioting. There may be some grumbling, shouting, even some marching with picket signs, but rioting is mostly a lefty thing.
Exactly! And that will lead to 'Irish Democracy' where no one riots, but no one complies with the law either. Especially after the Elite have spent so much time showing everyone how the law doesn't matter in the first place.
"What if the Senate really does produce a supermajority to convict Trump and ousts him from office? What happens next?"
War.
Not that fake bullshit where we caught Taliban shitbags and let them go over and over.
More like the French Revolution.
They hate him because he's coarse, because he made them look like idiots when he won the election, and because he supports policies that benefit the working class at their expense.
They hate him because he's taken their power.
Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...
Trump is a pig. His voters represent a broad swathe of humanity, just like Democratic voters. They are not, in general, members of a cult.
That's accurate and a good point, but can you think of any action that would unify people on the Right more than an unpopular (to them) impeachment of a guy they all voted for (however reluctantly they pulled that lever)?
A LOT of Republicans voted for Trump as a way to vote against Hillary. A LOT of those people have been unhappy with many things Trump has said and done since that time and feel little loyalty to Trump himself (as they understand, after all, that he isn't exactly a life-long Republican stalwart!).
A LOT of those prior Trump voters are reluctant to loudly defend him and his actions--but that could easily change if there's a real threat that he'd be removed from office in what they see as an unfair or overly-political way.
Think about the Kavanaugh nomination. Do you think many Republican voters cared all that much about Kav. as a person, or even as a nominee (when they would have been just as happy or happier with other nominees)? No, but as soon as it looked liked the Democrats were going to successfully smear him and cost the President his chosen nominee you saw a lot of fire and fury across the Republican/right-leaning spectrum.
I disagree with people who assume that kind of thing would guarantee Trump re-election (since you'd need to convince fair-minded independents both that Trump's treatment was unfair AND that they should therefore vote for him) but there's no doubt it would solidify and unite existing Republicans as a group.
Picture a stock market crash that wipes billions from people's retirement accounts.
All because the far left in their self centered, egotistical angst decided to throw a temper tantrum.
Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan tries to suggest that those who voted for Trump don't mind the relentless attack on Trump because diversity...and "Pig!"
Good luck with that.
Althouse, you're playing by the rules of 2017. Post-Mueller and post-Ukraine, the President's supporters think he's one of the cleanest politicians who held the office, and -hate- the Republicans who insist on kowtowing to a small number of tribal elites. Even if the Senate voted to convict, it's entirely possible President Trump's retort will be coming at muzzle velocity. But they're not going to convict, because that would render American democracy as convincing as Iranian democracy. If anything, pushing impeachment gives Trump every reason to throw Barack Hussein Obama in prison for his many crimes and hit Soros with RICO. Let's see how liberals do when the norms protecting them are thrown out the window.
Honestly, though, I don't even think it will come down to civil war. Black Americans aren't going to throw themselves on a grenade for Rob Reiner and David Frum. The elite minority is going to suffer terribly in a post-law America.
Trump can run again in the 2020 election and get re-elected.
Since he will have served only one term, he will be able to serve two more terms.
Xmas at 9:34 makes an excellent point. The functioning of our social order is absolutely reliant on people making compromises to the actual bright line rules. I have long thought that a clever terrorist group could bring Washington DC grinding to a halt by having a few group members take their cars and driving around the DC beltway at the posted speed limit. And we by mutual implicit agreement do not report all crimes we see (because we realize we can live with the offenses and we want to free up police time to deal with important issues). We could cause a general breakdown in society not by armed revolution, but just by strictly enforcing/abiding by rules. Right turn on red is permitted, but not required.
I don't think there will be a civil war, but there would be a complete collapse in shared culture. And I don't see red states supporting the military anymore. The neocons won't have anyone to fight endless wars with. I think there will be other unintended consequences like that.
Jersey Field: "...the Dems wouldn't dare impeach [Pence] with an angry Trump electorate out there."
Assumes facts not in evidence.
Why do divisive Supreme Court votes cause such strife and long-lasting partisan conflict? I think it's in part because the losing side often feels like "we can't win; the SYSTEM is rigged and won't let us." Since the Court has moved in Progressive directions in the last few decades on a number of prominent cultural issues this is usually felt by the Right, but it could go either way. "Even when we pass good laws some Judge will just overturn it" stings in a way losing an election or two doesn't and embitters individuals in a way that's difficult to overcome (absent victory the other way).
People voted for Trump (and/or against HillDog). The Media, the Left, and many prominent TrueConservatives strongly dislike him and haven't reconciled themselves to the fact that he won--they've been calling his election improper/stolen since before ballots were cast! It was voter suppression, it was the Russians cheating, it was the Russians interfering, it was some secret pro-Trump cabal in the FBI harming Hillary...etc. But people had their say.
Telling people who voted for Trump in large part as a kind of protest AGAINST DC establishment that they aren't allowed to have their chosen President even if they got him enough votes to win would basically confirm all their worst prejudices against the political process/system and would show them that they have no real choice nor chance to influence things the "correct" way.
That's, historically speaking, not a great message to send to large numbers of people. At the very least I don't see how doing that could possibly result in a more-united, less-partisan national population (nor polity).
A less-politicized, more-fair seeming process that had a chance of convincing huge majorities of people that Trump deserved to be removed might accomplish greater unity. The Democrats have decided to go with Adam Schiff, though...so no chance of that!
In the unlikely event that Trump is removed, Hillary could be depended upon to gloat. That, in itself, would be enough to get me to reach for the torch and pitchfork.
Trump's election has unmasked the Dems'/media's willingness to abuse power while they float candidates espousing far more radical ideas than Clinton in '16.
Offer Trump a deal. Exile to St. Helena (Life Achievement Unlocked: Napoleonic Level), with a guarantee he won't be prosecuted or extradited. Maybe throw in some money to expand and improve the golf course there. Avoids the disruptions either of having him around or being prosecuted. I suggested this to one Dems who was aghast at this suggestion that Trump escape the criminal process, but I don't think that reaction takes into account the problems you ably outline.
Respectfully, the commenters who say there will be civil war if Trump is removed are wrong. The left organizes, gives marching orders, riots, shuts down speech (or anything else) they don’t like. Conservatives don’t operate that way. We’re polite and tolerant, we clean up trash, we behave. Who would organize this civil war? It won’t happen by itself. It would require leadership. Who would the leader(s) be? Trump? I don’t see that happening.
There would surely be a period of time before the Senate voted that it would be obvious they had the votes to remove Trump, and they intended to do so. Once about 3 million angry people showed up outside the Capitol Building, I doubt there would even be a vote.
If Trump got removed soon enough, there probably would be a groundswell of support for Bernie Sanders. Trump voters give him the Dem nomination. Bernie getting elected would be an even bigger Fuck You
This should be tagged civility bullshit, or maybe it is only a first cousin.
Are you imagining Wisconsin style protests by diehard Trump suporters? That will tend to undermine their cause, as is all the talk here of starting a civil war if Trump is constitutionally ousted.
We know that the Republican Party was wiped out at the national level in 1974 but was able to rebuild itself. So they are only going to take that vote to oust Trump if they imagine the alternative is worse. You also have to imagine where Trump’s popularity would have to be in order for the ouster vote to happen. It’s the difference between popular 1972 Nixon and unpopular 1974 Nixon, except that Trump is not starting out as popular.
Let’s remember the deplorables never had a majority. Trump got in on a constitutional technicality so he can go out on a technicality.
Wow! A country where the President of the USA can be “convicted” based on the completely disproved hearsay allegations of a partisan, anonymous, rogue CIA operative as engineered by a lying Schiff for brains congressthing.
That certainly bodes well for the future of the nation under the uniparty system.
Of course, Trump’s real “high crime” is his first notable effort to get the goods on a high profile grifting swamp rat. That is the lure for Republic Senators. We can’t have that!
"But what if the momentum gets going and 2/3 of the Senators vote to convict?"
LOL. Good one! And if frogs had wings they wouldn't bump their asses on the ground. And flying pigs and everything!
The Dems are stupider than I thought if they let this get to the Senate where everything gets out into the open. And the rats are getting ready to jump ship with Barr and Huber getting closer.
Clapper- 'Obama made me do it!'
Trump might get impeached, conviction unlikely
Assuming facts not in evidence. I see only one comment that acknowledges that there is no impeachment pending.
Assuming that House impeaches before Christmas, and the Senate doesn't dilly-dally in beginning a trial:
Even that seems to assume the Democrats can get an impeachment resolution passed. This is all TV show. The subpoenas are not valid. It is all theater. I doubt Nancy will ever try to get a resolution voted on by the House. This is theater for the dummies.
It's a bit of a surprise to see how many Republicans seem to be falling for it.
In America, as in Russia, Swamp drains YOU.
1) "They hate him because he's coarse,"
2) "because he made them look like idiots when he won the election,"
3) "and because he supports policies that benefit the working class at their expense."
4) "They hate him because he's taken their power."
Mostly 4) a lot of 2) and sprinklings of 1) and 3)
Also, they're frustrated because most of the tricks they use to beat the average Republican have not worked on Trump.
There's nothing to stop Trump from running in 2020, even if he's impeached. That's the hilarious thing.
I'd like to think Turkey Mitch and his gang of Senate Clowns know that dragging an impeachment trial past March 2020 will hand the election to the D's, but I"m not sure they care. They were perfectly happy with Hillary! being elected in 2016, and secretly they pine for the Obama days when they didn't have to govern but could make pompous speeches and hand out the graft.
"If Trump got removed soon enough, there probably would be a groundswell of support for Bernie Sanders. Trump voters give him the Dem nomination. Bernie getting elected would be an even bigger Fuck You."
Trump voters electing Bernie would be the biggest own goal in the history of the planet.
Not going to happen.
"Trump got in on a constitutional technicality..."
Democrats consider the Constitution a technicality.
Mrs. X said...
Respectfully, the commenters who say there will be civil war if Trump is removed are wrong. The left organizes, gives marching orders, riots, shuts down speech (or anything else) they don’t like. Conservatives don’t operate that way. We’re polite and tolerant, we clean up trash, we behave. Who would organize this civil war? It won’t happen by itself. It would require leadership. Who would the leader(s) be? Trump? I don’t see that happening.
10/9/19, 10:11 AM
I'm not surprised there are conservatives who fail to learn the lessons of insurgency, or even Gamergate. A few lone tigers can devour any number of sheep. And a few "incidents" will spark full scale conflict, which will bring in new leaders. Many of whom will be far crueler than Donald Trump.
There are no grounds for impeachment and no grounds for conviction or removal from office. A removal from office would be the most partisan insane thing ever. The DC elite and the D's giving the American voters a big fuck you.
If Trump WAS REMOVED, every R Senator who voted to convict would be a marked man. And most of them would lose re-election. I could even see Trump forming a 3rd party. I'd like to think Trump voters would storm the Capital in protest, but who would organize it? Who would plan it? Trump voters are an army without organized leaders.
"Let’s remember the deplorables never had a majority. Trump got in on a constitutional technicality so he can go out on a technicality."
You run with that. Please.
https://www.amgreatness.com/2019/10/08/anti-trump-whistleblower-wrote-dramatic-memo-after-ukraine-call-has-ties-to-2020-dem-candidate/
His supporters would accept it if incontrovertible evidence of true high crimes or misdemeanors can be found. If such evidence isn't the basis for conviction, then the Republicans will get crushed next November- they will lose the presidency and the Senate. In the Senate, they will lose every election in which the Republican Senator voted for conviction. This would probably leave the Democrats with over 60 seats given that the Democrats are defending only 9 seats (all look safe in such an election) while the Republicans are defending at least 24 and would lose probably 10+ of those for certain. In the House, the Republicans would lose at least another 20 seats if not more.
The reason for this is simple- having been denied our voice by the Republican Party itself, we would stay home- it would time for a new Republican Party, and the only way to do that is to let the present cabal of them in D.C. be wiped away. There certainly wouldn't be any real motivation to come to the polls to vote for them- I wouldn't cross the street to piss on one of them if he was on fire.
If Trump is constitutionally ousted based on what is known so far, that means that the constitution is now a worthless rag that means whatever Democrats say it means and that our "ruling class” needs to go.
I do not find the conviction scenario remotely plausible. By the time that could happen, the Dunham investigation will be finished and in all likelihood, some prominent Dems and some of their Deep State minions will be recommended for indictment. The RINO weak sisters who might go along with it won't want any exposure to being accused of being fellow travelers.
But if it comes to pass, people may be reminded that whom the gods wish to destroy, they give what they want.
Thanksgiving would be banned as a holiday due to the rampant mayhem that ensued every time a liberal at the table opened his mouth.
Unknown said...
Offer Trump a deal. Exile to St. Helena (Life Achievement Unlocked: Napoleonic Level), with a guarantee he won't be prosecuted or extradited.
______________
and with sharks patrol with fricking laser cannons on their heads
Irish Democracy? Italian anarchy? Well it's not Italian anarchy, it's just that many Italians don't pay any more attention to the tax collector and tax laws than Greek drivers do to stoplights. Or than dedicated sunbathers do to a "clothing optional" sign on a beach.
The Schiff show will go for quite a while; it may even result in the House finally adopting actual articles of impeachment where the "pro" impeachment Representatives have to slither out from under a rock and cast a vote--and take the consequences, good or bad, at the 2020 polls.
But this sort of Schiff show is where respect for law and order and for our political institutions will ultimately break down. The truly sad thing is that Schiff is from a district where he will be re-elected into eternity.
"The result of impeachment will be a huge number of Americans who will never consider voting for a Democrat ever again." - Char Char Binks
I vowed to never vote for a Democrat when, in the aftermath of 9/11, they actively gave aid and comfort to Saddam Hussein, Osama bin Laden, Al Qaida and the Taliban. When they were smearing the brave men of our armed forces, when they were human shields, both physical and political.
"Picture a stock market crash that wipes billions from people's retirement accounts.
All because the far left in their self centered, egotistical angst decided to throw a temper tantrum."
Deserves repeating.
What should happen after a criminal conspiracy has overthrown the legitimate, constitutional government of the United States?
You know what's childish?
The Dems demanding to be told every night as a bedtime story that Trump is about to be removed from office and the Dems will somehow find a way to take over so they can relax enough to get to sleep.
That half the country couldn't survive without the American media constantly patting them on the head and saying, "There now, it's all going to be OK" makes me wonder how this could be the progeny of the Greatest Generation.
I think a nationwide paternity test is in order.
Mike Sylwester: Trump can run again in the 2020 election and get re-elected.
Since he will have served only one term, he will be able to serve two more terms.
22nd Amendment says, "No person shall be elected to the office of the President more than twice, and no person who has held the office of President, or acted as President, for more than two years of a term to which some other person was elected President shall be elected to the office of the President more than once."
Trump was elected in 2016. If he's elected again in 2020, he can not be elected a third time. How much time he actually serves as President doesn't come into it.
They won't riot. They know they're defeated. His election was a Hail Mary pass that almost worked. Unless someone is smart enough and brave enough to pick up the torch. But I don't see them.
Blogger Mrs. X said...
‘Respectfully, the commenters who say there will be civil war if Trump is removed are wrong. The left organizes, gives marching orders, riots, shuts down speech (or anything else) they don’t like. Conservatives don’t operate that way.’
Correct! Lefties are tyrants given to criminal behavior to achieve their goals. Conservatives are basically decent, law abiding people.
I think McCullough (10:14) has the right idea. Push for Bernie or Warren to get the Dem nomination and vote for him or her. Revenge! That’s the ticket.
Hopefully, Biden will be under indictment by then. The New Democrat President can pardon him and make him Sec. of State. Think of the opportunities, particularly for Hunter.
Blogger Mrs. X said...
‘Respectfully, the commenters who say there will be civil war if Trump is removed are wrong. The left organizes, gives marching orders, riots, shuts down speech (or anything else) they don’t like. Conservatives don’t operate that way.’
Correct! Lefties are tyrants given to criminal behavior to achieve their goals. Conservatives are basically decent, law abiding people.
I think McCullough (10:14) has the right idea. Push for Bernie or Warren to get the Dem nomination and vote for him or her. Revenge! That’s the ticket.
Hopefully, Biden will be under indictment by then. The New Democrat President can pardon him and make him Sec. of State. Think of the opportunities, particularly for Hunter.
"Trump got in on a constitutional technicality so he can go out on a technicality."
Honest question Left Bank. Do you really believe this as written, or are you just trying to get a rise out of the comentariat?
Ingachuck'stoothlessARM said...
During the trial in the Senate, wont he get to subpoena anyone he wants and have them under oath?
_________________
Y'all need to give up on this "under oath" nonsense.
All the witnesses can claim 5A - ALSO REMEMBER CJ Roberts presides AND you know all about him.
What happens if gun and ammo sales increase 5 or 10 fold in the weeks/months leading up to the Senate vote? Would that send a sufficient message?
--Rt1Rebel
Left Bank: "Let’s remember the deplorables never had a majority. Trump got in on a constitutional technicality so he can go out on a technicality."
LOL
To the lefties/LLR-lefties, the entire Constitution is just a "technicality" to be overturned and cast aside on the road to The Brave New Lefty People's Paradise.
And we all know precisely where that road leads.
If the House impeaches Trump, it dooesn't really matter whether the Senate convicts. The damage will already have been done. No one will respect the constitutional procedures the House so blatantly abused.
Thank heavens it is only a nightmare and Bobby Ewing is really alive.
Mrs. X said...Respectfully, the commenters who say there will be civil war if Trump is removed are wrong. The left organizes, gives marching orders, riots, shuts down speech (or anything else) they don’t like. Conservatives don’t operate that way. We’re polite and tolerant, we clean up trash, we behave. Who would organize this civil war? It won’t happen by itself.
Yes, an excellent point many of the "one side has all the gunz!" crowd often misses. There is no organizational equivalent on the Right to the many Left groups like Antifa. The force multiplier for the Left will be the Media--even though respect for the Media is at an all time low masses of nice centrist people still (for some reason) "trust" the nice anchors at CNN to give them the truth.
When Left-led protests devolve into riots with violence, property damage, attacks on cops, etc, the lead is "Mostly Peaceful Protest Against Republican Evils." The first time some identifiable group of Right people so much as dent a fender we'll be inundated with round-the-clock news of horrible violence, the need for terror group designations, arrests, all of it. The Right does not have a counter to that--not one effective with nice centrist people.
Hell, the Media more or less did that with the Tea Party--including, naturally, accusations of racism and associated "ugliness"--and that was a nonviolent group of old people!
If they manage to oust Trump because he is showing all of their corruption to the world, while trying him in secret, as they are doing right now, and then calling it “constitutional”
We know the game. Capture something respected by the American people, gut it, wear its skin, and then demand the respect that it had had prior to its complete perversion.
Secret trials to overcome elections, what’s not to like.
Besides: Had Trump wasted money from his shoestring budget getting votes in California, there were a lot of votes he could have harvested under the new laws there, even if he couldn’t have won the state, he could probably have won the nationwide popular vote. Had it ben a popular vote election, a lot more Texans would have turned out, lots of people would have turned out in safely red states, to counter California.
That’s not the election we had. It’s amazing to me to see the kind of motivated reasoning the lefties indulge, repressing all contrary evidence or lines of argument, no matter how reasonable, or even obviously true.
For instance the whole “impeachment” is an investigation to help Democrats win the next election. How much psychic effort does it go to not be able to see that?
Remember when the Democrats were saying that it didn’t matter if they were really Russian agents if Trump thought they were, it was the same thing? Well Schiff thought that he was talking to Russians when they offered him nudies of Trump. That’s recorded and broadcast.
With all due respect, Ann, isn’t this post about 30 months late? The silent coup has always had the horrible question looming over it: What if we succeed? It’s the same question Britain has hanging over it. You succeed and truly both nations are done as democracies. I doubt a hot civil war would break out but the Cold War will make civil society unbearable.
The fact that the left is playing Russian roulette thinking there is no bullet reveals how degenerate they have become.
Then we "deplorables" will vote for him again in 2020. And more than last time.
hombre said...Hopefully, Biden will be under indictment by then.
I know you're kidding but people need to get over the fantasy that anyone in DC who is remotely on the Dem side will ever face real consequences. McAbe's gonna walk. Brennan's going to walk. Clapper is going to continue to walk. Comey? Hillary? The news this week that Mueller lied to Congress and it can be proven that he was seeking an FBI position despite saying under oath that he wasn't should be taken with the understanding that he will walk.
Dems won't ever face indictment no matter how guilty. That needs to be accepted.
Until and unless nice centrist people are convinced Dems should have to play by the same legal rules they aren't in any danger of being indicted, much less convicted. Do you hear nice centrists like Professor Althouse calling for that?
Violent revolution. We will see who fights better. Double-skinny vanilla latte sipping California progressives, or fly-over boys.
Mrs. X said...
Respectfully, the commenters who say there will be civil war if Trump is removed are wrong. The left organizes, gives marching orders, riots, shuts down speech (or anything else) they don’t like. Conservatives don’t operate that way. We’re polite and tolerant, we clean up trash, we behave. Who would organize this civil war? It won’t happen by itself. It would require leadership. Who would the leader(s) be? Trump? I don’t see that happening.
Within a week of Trump being impeached millions of armed citizens will descend on Washington DC.
They will be organized by Veterans and groups like Rolling Thunder.
The NCO backbone of the US Army and many enlisted will be right there too.
The Republicans who vote to impeach will go first.
Some up-and-coming Republicans would immediately be on the fast track to the Senate, and Trump would be reelected in either 2020 or 2024, but you better have the money to whether the coming recession if the Dems win either the Senate or the White House.
"What if the Senate really does produce a supermajority to convict Trump and ousts him from office? What happens next?"
I'm sure somebody has already said this, but Trump continues to run in 2020, wins big and hopefully wins back the House.
I’d say the country better be disarmed before he’s removed from office.
The tree of liberty will get her drink.
Yea, so can he be thrown out on Monday and sworn back in on Tuesday after he wins reelection?
Whoa! You mean the Dems don't know the likely outcome if they remove Trump from office? If they are not thinking of what could happen they are in deep SH$T. All He!! will break loose. And they will be the ones without the guns.
This whole thing is a travesty they are destroying the rule of law, fair play, 4th amendment, and ultimately the country.
They underestimate the fury that will descend upon them.
’Trump got in on a constitutional technicality...’
He was elected in the same manner as our other forty-four presidents. Why would you make such an asinine comment?
This is theater for the dummies. It's a bit of a surprise to see how many Republicans seem to be falling for it.
I am not surprised at all. All is going according to plan. Pelosi starts a phony "impeachment inquiry" and laterals the ball to her minions in the media to talk nonstop about the inevitability of impeachment in order to peel away the GOPe.
Even the GOPe are not that stupid.
I hope!
Left Bank of the Charles said...
Let’s remember the deplorables never had a majority. Trump got in on a constitutional technicality so he can go out on a technicality.
Them's fightin words.
I don't think you are ready to back up the shit that is flowing out of your mouth.
Democrats need to wise up before they cross the Rubicon.
There will be at minimum 5 million armed citizens in DC, many/most military veterans with combat experience.
We already went to war at least once with enemies of freedom. You all are a lot less scary than the taliban or al quaeda.
DarkHelmet said...
Also, they're frustrated because most of the tricks they use to beat the average Republican have not worked on Trump.
10/9/19, 10:26 AM
I think this is at the root of it all. Trump simply REFUSES to play the "good R" and take his undeserved punishments like a good GOPe should. He constantly stymies their attempts to treat him like they (Ds, MSM, etc.) treat every other GOP politician. OK, you had one or two over the years like Gowdy & Thompson that had backbone but most immediately roll over and show their bellies. Far more important to get invited to the best parties and to be polite while getting repeatedly stabbed in the back and make to look the fool for trusting the Ds yet again.
Trump don't play that and the left is loosing their friggen MINDS over it. They are most afraid that it will spread to others and then the game is really over for them.
SeanF at 10:46 AM
22nd Amendment says ...
Thanks for that correction.
The violence is definitely possible, but it will be selectively aimed at soft targets- people in the media would likely feel it first. You see a few talking heads assassinated, and it would spread quickly and be hard to put back into the bottle. The point is this- it is hard to protect anybody without the ability to completely close down areas down in which the target is standing- this sort of authority only exists with protection details of government personnel. Mediaswine aren't going to get that- nor are big tech owners and management.
I wrote several weeks ago- you don't want sane, careful, and thoughtful people carrying out violent acts against you and yours. Such people succeed more often, succeed more spectacularly, and are much, much harder to uncover and stop. Such people aren't looking to be martyrs, and that makes all the difference.
The House will not vote out Articles of Impeachment with the current set of bullshit talking points and fake witnesses they've dreamed up/drummed up. Just won't happen.
Disarmed, disenfranchised, dispossessed and disposed of. These ate the things the Democrats dream about.
The NCO backbone of the US Army and many enlisted will be right there too.
in your dreams, unfortunately
I think impeachment misses the point that we're not one country anymore. The urban crazies are not going to change their minds, and the rest of us are not going to kill 100 million people. The normals have to amend the Constitution to limit the power of national government and allow for separation, and then we just have to go our own way. The normal areas of Democratic states will split off and come with us. The crazy areas can be left to work out their issues among themselves.
Go watch "Taxi Driver" or "Joker." Now imagine hundreds and possibly thousands like that, except instead of being poor, mentally unstable loners they're middle class men and women with college educations who have access to LOTS of guns.
THAT'S what it will look like after Trump is removed from office.
Mike
I have always said Senate Republicans would vote Trump out of office in a heart beat if they could vote anonymously. Republicans don't care if they lose the majority. Their power doesn't lie in a single vote on the Senate floor, or committee chairmanships.
If Trump is removed I think you'll see a rash of political assassinations; false flag or otherwise. Then, the real fun begins. The course will be set for the permanent authoritarian State.
Technicalities?
Bleach bit/wiped with a cloth Hil' shouldn't have even been in the running.
If Trump is convicted, a significant number of Republican senators will have agreed to it.
Based on the Nixon case, when a group of prominent senators act together, it's decisive.
I would hope the die-hard Trump supporters would recognize that he was impeached and convicted by a constitutional process, and they would redouble their efforts to elect him in the fall.
Lamp posts, ropes, assembly. Or some variation thereof will be one result.
Long distance well aimed rifle shots another.
Mob action? Well, that's a leftist tactic. It will be fed up individuals with a common goal.
Are the interests of the Obama intelligence cabal who want to obscure the work of Durham etc. exactly the same interests as the congressional Democrats?
And are the interests of the Democrat radicals exactly the same as the party establishment?
Trump would do well to exploit any divisions in the roll-out of his impeachment defense.
I suppose it is a fair point that removing Trump from office will piss off some portion of the 62.9M people who voted for Trump at least as much as the most angry portion of the 65.8M people who voted for Clinton. But they are already angry even at the prospect of removal, so its really just marginal angriness. How does that offset against the marginal happiness of the Clinton voters at Trump's removal? Even his hypothetical removal is making them happier.
But the idea that 62.9M people voted for Trump and 65.8M people voted for Clinton is a fiction. In reality Trump was elected by 304 electoral college voters. It will take a minimum of 285 votes in the House and the Senate voting to remove him. Those numbers on are on the same scale, relatively few people each on average representing a couple hundred thousand or so voters in both cases.
Achilles wet dream of leading his army of cucks into his martyrdom by cop. His name is Robert Paulson
"how will this affect the millions of people who thought they won the election and then saw their victory taken away?"
Just you wait.
When the balloon goes up I'll report to my post, the big Safeway warehouse out in the county. Then, no food for Portland.
Then, civil war or crickets? What army would break the blockade?
Trump got in on a constitutional technicality... = ?RULE OF LAW?
________________
IT BECOMES CLEARER AND CLEARER
I don't think there will be an impeachment. Trump will drag this into 2020. Absent a smoking gun, victim down range with a bullet hole in his chest, several (D)Congress Critters will be loath to vote to impeach in an election year. Especially with a guy like Schiff leading the parade.
Then there are the wild cards of Barr's and others investigations.
But if they gt a speedy impeachment the Senate can schedule their actions. (I assume the R's keep the Senate.) So instead of a trial the Senate can conduct their own investigation. Takes time. Turns over rocks the left wants undisturbed.
Up to and through election day.
The unanswered question remains with every one of these efforts by The Democrats, including impeachment now:
What exactly did Trump do that was illegal?
Then, whether their answer is actually a crime of not: why was it OK for Dems to do the same or worse all this time.
You have to be severely hypocritical to accuse anyone of obstruction or foreign collusion if you supported Hillary, or Biden. You really should just hide your face.
What happens if gun and ammo sales increase 5 or 10 fold in the weeks/months leading up to the Senate vote ...
___________________________
What is the latest on ammunition imports from China? did Trump put tariff on them?
- asking for local arms dealer!
Let’s remember the deplorables never had a majority.
Let's remember Hillary never had a majority either.
“I'm not surprised there are conservatives who fail to learn the lessons of insurgency, or even Gamergate. A few lone tigers can devour any number of sheep. And a few "incidents" will spark full scale conflict, which will bring in new leaders. Many of whom will be far crueler than Donald Trump.”
“The violence is definitely possible, but it will be selectively aimed at soft targets- people in the media would likely feel it first. You see a few talking heads assassinated, and it would spread quickly and be hard to put back into the bottle. The point is this- it is hard to protect anybody without the ability to completely close down areas down in which the target is standing- this sort of authority only exists with protection details of government personnel. Mediaswine aren't going to get that- nor are big tech owners and management.”
I am thinking maybe a middle route - the mass display of firearms as both a 1st and 2nd Amdt protest. I am thinking maybe a Million Gun March. Heck maybe we should think of something like that if a bunch of Republican Senators see ready to buckle. The trick is to have the other guy fire the first shot, in order to get the moral high ground. The Britts shot first at Lexington, and the Democrats shot first at Fort Sumpter. It doesn’t really matter if it is government forces firing on innocent Americans, or Anti First Amendment (AntiFA) fascist thugs doing it in their stead instead. That is when it would go hot, when the bait is taken, and the left responds with gunfire.
If he's impeached:
1. I'll miss replaying Rachel Maddow's 2020 video announcing Trump's 2nd term.
2. I'll never forget how he fixed the Supreme Court.
It has been said, The only reason they want to disarm you now is that they intend to do something to you that you'd shoot them for. Many Viet Nam era vets got little to lose and a lot of time on the AR-15 platform. I think Achilles is closer to the truth than many folks care to imagine.
This "impeachment" effort is positional.
Many expect Ruth Ginzburg to step down from SCOTUS before the 2020 elections. When Trump nominates a replacement, there will be some fraction of Senators who want to delay confirmation until after the election and new Congress is seated. That fraction hopes to increase it's share by adding that an "impeached" president should not be empowered to appoint SCOTUS candidates.
SCOTUS then is elevated as an election issue.
Even if the 2020 election returns Trump to the White House, there will be Senators argue that, having been impeached (censured, rebuked, whatever the outcome) Trump's appointments are invalid.
What happens next?
Gee. I don't know.
I suspect 60 million people are just going to sit back and do nothing because they've accepted there are now two sets of rules.
Or not.
There is no organizational equivalent on the Right to the many Left groups like Antifa.
Say many who have never attended a Lions' Club or Rotary or Masonic Lodge or VFW or American Legion or Methodist's Women's or "Susan B Anthony" or Eagle Forum, or Marching Band Mothers or Baptists Morning Mission, Girl Scout Cookie Drive or Eagle Scout "Little Free Library" project ribbon cutting ... Many have never handed out blankets at a WalMart parking lot from the Salvation Army trucks to flood victims. Many never show up to sandbag flood zones come springtime. Many say others are "bowling alone" and don't join groups anymore. But to say there aren't any "organized groups" or that the Right has no organizing skills is to betray the blinding bubble in which the speaker lives.
The little quiet groups that meet to have fun, raise funds, solve local problems, keep the kids safe and parks open barely earn a mention in the paper. Maybe a notice of the Pancake Feed on Saturday. But the groups meet all the same. They elect leaders. They have long lists of reliable volunteers to drive and carpool and show up when they promise to do so. They do show up at tornado and hurricane sites -- and surprise journalists who turn around and call these ordinary folks colorful names like "The Cajun Navy". Ha, ha, ha. They're people who raise enough money and have the trucks, tools, and yes guns to do whatever they've agreed needed doing. So far the biggest challenges have been natural disasters.
Do you really want to see what happens if these folks decide that the challenge is political?
We’re polite and tolerant, we clean up trash, we behave. Who would organize this civil war? It won’t happen by itself. It would require leadership. Who would the leader(s) be? Trump? I don’t see that happening.
You're wrong. People are already organizing. They're just not making a big deal about it.
even GOPe is not dumb enough to commit suicide
are they?
For those who say there is no way we could have a civil war because (essentially) the Right wouldn't bother, we can refer back to a civil war whose ghost haunts all of our institutions: The English Civil War. If we have a new civil war in the US, that old and odd conflict will be the model, as it is baked into our politics as the inevitable result when - not if - an elite decides to ignore the wishes and violate the consciences of the populace in a constitutional polity.
If the Senate actually convicted Trump there might be a major shut down in DC and other major cities. I don't know how it would look, perhaps a few thousand people parking their cars and blocking traffic, or sit ins in the halls of Congress to prevent people from getting to their offices. Doesn't have to involve violence to make an impact. Civil disobedience conservative style.
That would be interesting to see but it won't happen for the same reason that Hillary got a pass for her server/emails and there has not been a major public investigation of how the Trump insurance policy got played.
I don't believe the d's are doing any of this to remove Trump by impeachment, it's all to weaken Trump from being re-elected. IMO it's pathetic.
Trump got in on a constitutional technicality so he can go out on a technicality.
So being elected according to the Constitution is now a technicality.
But, yeah. We're just going to sit back and let people like you run the show.
/rolls eyes
Within a week of Trump being impeached millions of armed citizens will descend on Washington DC.
They will be organized by Veterans and groups like Rolling Thunder.
The NCO backbone of the US Army and many enlisted will be right there too.
The Republicans who vote to impeach will go first.
Pure speculation and not supported by previous events. The only path I see to Civil War is if the left starts it, which is possible. They’re A. that stupid and B. have a belief in the worthiness of their cause(s), buoyed by the media.
HoodlumDoodlum said...
There is no organizational equivalent on the Right to the many Left groups like Antifa.
There you're wrong. Consider the III Percenters, the Oath Keepers and Rolling Thunder, just to name a few. You may not be aware of them because they're not out there busting heads. Yet.
The people who talk about the Trump doing nothing are accurate. Its hilarious your average conservatives reaction to wrong doing by the left. Its basically:
1) I'll just not vote (thereby rewarding the left and making it easier for them)
2) I'll hole in a cabin with my guns if things get bad. Let them come and get me!
Just beautiful losers.
I can't speak for others, but I'll be less likely to obey the law. At least laws that affect my relation with the government. I won't set fire to my Congressman's (Swalwell's) office, but I won't really condemn someone for doing so. And I'll look for ways to move my assets out of the country for my retirement. Yeah, I know lots of people have threatened to leave the country before, but we already have land overseas, so the move wouldn't be too difficult.
With the elections that Trump caused in the Senate at the mid terms, lots of eGOP Senators are publicly supporting Trump.
4 Democrat incumbents lost due to Trump in the mid terms, that was noticed...
What if the Senate really does produce a supermajority to convict Trump and ousts him from office? What happens next?
Democracy dies in coups. Even those under the color of law.
I have read that impeachment can include a bar on future office holding, but does not have to. Alcee Hastings was impeached as a federal judge but was not barred from being elected to the house of representatives. He could have been but the senate didn't think of it.
BTW, I am too old to fight in any civil war, but I am willing and able to join my neighbors in offering armed resistance to any mob or looters threatening our neighborhood.
I would hope that the people who use it as a reason to exercise their 2nd amendment rights to refresh the tree of liberty start on Capitol Hill and not in their own communities.
I think a stock market crash if a real impeachment resolution was voted out of the House is a real possibility.
The fact that it hasn't happened is like Obama buying a $15 million estate on an island that would be submerged by AGW.
They all know this is candy for the rubes, on the left that is.
The folks on the right, the ones with 300 million guns, are not fooled.
THere's a lot of discussion in these comments about whether the Dems understand how the reaction to impeachment (and removal?) might be bad for them, or bad for the country. In my opinion, those pushing for or rooting for impeachment are not thinking any further than "Hurt Trump".
re: Mrs. X: Fair enough, but there are plenty of retired guys with little more to do than practice shooting, and with enough money to buy ammunition faster than they shoot it. No job, no kids at home, nothing to lose. They've even got their own marginalized subculture-- "gun people", is what outsiders call them. (Don't ask me how I know.)
A very dangerous lot, when pissed.
When the Althouses finally return, they might be interested in this.
Against new information that U.S. Attorney John Durham has lengthened the time-frame for this investigative inquiry into the DOJ and FBI activity around the 2016 election, earlier today Fox Business host Maria Bartiromo revealed (and President Trump tweeted) the FISA report by Michael Horowitz will be released on Friday October 18th.
If that time-frame for the IG report is accurate, that means the classification review has been completed; any remaining classified information not specifically authorized in the inspector general report, a decision granted to AG Bill Barr, would be placed in a classified appendix that is not available to the public.
The walls are closing in.
RE: "Their choice was never honored, never treated as respectable. They got to see that their opinion never mattered and was never supposed to prevail."
Just like the people who voted for Brexit, who've had to watch for three years while the Ruling Class fights to ignore their vote and continue to do what they want -- and the Ruling Class may yet prevail.
RE: "What happens next?"
What happens when the government of the US ceases to be legitimate?
What happens when the government no longer protects the rights of its citizens?
Well, the Declaration of Independence defines the proper role of government: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed."
What happens next?
The Declaration continues: "That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."
A case in point from our friendly local third-world narcostate neighbor to the south:
https://www.foxnews.com/world/mexico-mayor-dragged-car-angry-locals
Not the same as what's going on here, of course, but even there Government authority depends to some extent on the sufferance of the governed.
One key difference being that here, officers sent in to subdue the unruly peasants would take casualties if they tried a stunt like that.
They wouldn't try it a second time.
"What if the Senate really does produce a supermajority to convict Trump and ousts him from office? What happens next?"
This deserves one or two tags: Althouse is trolling her audience tag or its a mental masturbartion tag. Or both tags.
My fearless prediction: Hillary will be facing criminal prosecution sooner than Trump getting impeached and removed from office. Now my dear fellow commenters, which tag does that comment get?
I think we'd enter an era of political assassination, mostly by lone gunmen, since people acting in concert would be rolled up via surveillance.
The NCO backbone of the US Army and many enlisted will be right there too. - stupid jim
Snort. As if that's some sort of core constituency of the left.
Be quiet. You know nothing of which you speak.
I would hope that the people who use it as a reason to exercise their 2nd amendment rights to refresh the tree of liberty start on Capitol Hill and not in their own communities.
I live up to my ears in one of the bluest cities in one of the bluest states.
The people in my 'community' not only support impeachment, they're demanding it. Local elected officials. PCOs. The local rag.
Charity begins at home, I say.
Nobody is too old to man a roadblock. And the left will start it by taking power extra-constitutionally, as in a bogus impeachment, or winning an election and going for broke.
Militias will begin to form in the red counties supported by their local sheriffs and county commissioners, started by groups mentioned above. Leaders will come forward.
Do not expect the working classes to consent to be helots for the urban gentry.
Sorry, but I don't think the US is ready for any sort of armed insurrection or uprising. Too many full bellies.
’No job, no kids at home, nothing to lose.’
I’ve had a fabulous life - and still do. But, I remember something my Dad - an extremely successful man - once told me. He said his only failure in life was that he didn’t give his life for our country. Let that sink in, you gutless leftards...
I’d have no hesitation to best such a fine American
Sorry, but I don't think the US is ready for any sort of armed insurrection or uprising. Too many full bellies.
probably true, but we'll eagerly watch an HBO series about one
Don't forget, folks. Anything you post on the internet can, and will, be dredged up later to convict you or to confiscate your weapons. Free speech is dead. The Left killed it.
"I think the entire theater of impeachment is taking place within the false security that the Senate will never be able to convict."
The key phrase there is "theater of impeachment". It's all just theater until properly passed articles are sent to the Senate. Ignoring precedent will invite litigation. Once there are SCOTUS rulings and the Senate takes up articles I will worry about vote counts.
Until then I am yelling "Theater!" at their crowded dumpster fire.
You can count me in, but I don't know what will come of my friends who have TDS. Will we come to blows. I love my friends, including those who are unhinged with this hatred, but I love my country, what's left of it.
Do you really want to see what happens if these folks decide that the challenge is political?
And they decide they have nothing left to lose?
Blogger HoodlumDoodlum said...
Mrs. X said...Respectfully, the commenters who say there will be civil war if Trump is removed are wrong. The left organizes, gives marching orders, riots, shuts down speech (or anything else) they don’t like. Conservatives don’t operate that way. We’re polite and tolerant, we clean up trash, we behave. Who would organize this civil war? It won’t happen by itself.
Yes, an excellent point many of the "one side has all the gunz!" crowd often misses. There is no organizational equivalent on the Right to the many Left groups like Antifa. The force multiplier for the Left will be the Media--even though respect for the Media is at an all time low masses of nice centrist people still (for some reason) "trust" the nice anchors at CNN to give them the truth.
You both are morons. And not any of the good kind
It doesn't take, and you don't want, "organization" in that situation. Organization requires communication, which can be tapped
What you'll see is about one million "lone gunmen"
Antifa announces they're going to do something. 5 snipers set up in different places overlooking the event, and start killing people.
Someone else will drive a car bomb to a Google "Campus", or Facebook, or Twitter
There's a ton of really soft targets in Blue America
Do you really want to see what happens if these folks decide that the challenge is political?
And they decide they have nothing left to lose?
Hell to pay.
The House has not taken any public action to commence impeachment proceedings, Pelosi just came out of a meeting of her caucus and announced it. No right of the minority to subpoena power, no need for the Dems to go on record, personally, not even a list of possible actions to investigate; in fact, NOTHING, as the Constitution does not even recognize such things as political parties and caucuses.
So the whole thing is illegitimate from the start. And to remove a President from office via a process totally devoid of even an attempt at being legitimate will tear us all apart.
If they believe he probably committed acts deserving of impeachment, they should draft articles and identify a Committee to investigate them, including the rules the Committee should follow, and seek approval by a majority vote of the full House.
As it is, we have an anonymous complaint by an insider, that is being treated as if it were a bill of particulars in an indictment.
This is an unholy mess and only bad will come of it.
"Picture a stock market crash that wipes billions from people's retirement accounts."
It won't happen, but if you're worried about that, then put about a third of your portfolio into BAR and SGOL, two ETFs with assets consisting almost entirely of physical gold in bank vaults. When the market crashes, the price of these ETFs will go down also, but not as much; and they will be the first to snap back. When they do, sell some and buy more shares of the rest of your ETFs and stocks.
In any case, by the time the entire financial system collapses, you should have already acquired land, seeds, survival food, and an AR15 and 2,000 rounds of ammunition for every member of your family.
Be seeing you.
Storm the Georgetown cocktail parties, emptying sacks of pig shit into the punchbowls.
Directly on David Brooks' noggin if spotted.
Be quiet. You know nothing of which you speak.
jim has extensive experience in the military,
LKIke Hillary and Biden.
It depends on how many Trump voters are convinced that he needs to be removed from office.
If Trump's support drops to 20-somethings first, then nothing much.
If it happens when Trump's approval rating is still where it is now, the current Republican Party will be destroyed. Maybe it'll be by Trump and his supporters taking over control of the current organization, maybe it'll be displaced by a new organization, but either way it's being replaced by a "Trump Party". Very certainly most of the Republican Senators voting to convict will remain in office past the end of their current term.
(That's why, going back to the premises, Republican Senators won't remove Trump short of his approval ratings declining to Nixonian levels. They know that it'll end their political careers. Mitt Romney might well survive given Utah's unusually anti-Trump brand of Republicanism, and Susan Collins might manage to survive as an independent or Democrat, but more than two dozen of 'em have to be willing to see their careers permanently ended.)
Continuing this scenario, this "Trump Party" is eventually going to be elected to power. (Idiots worshiping at the altar of demographic destiny don't seem to quite get that thee coalitions of the two-party system are not permanent.) And when it does, its activist core, forged in anger at how institutional rules were used by the elites to remove Trump, will have no respect whatsoever for the niceties. Institutions will be openly and unapologetically broken to the will of the new party in power, in the name of the will of the people. There are, for example, enough technical violations of laws in our system that Trump Party-appointed US Attorneys will be able to jail all sorts of members of the political, judicial, bureaucratic, and media opposition as it finds necessary. Having sown the wind, the class that removed Trump will reap the whirlwind.
Jim at said...
I would hope that the people who use it as a reason to exercise their 2nd amendment rights to refresh the tree of liberty start on Capitol Hill and not in their own communities.
I live up to my ears in one of the bluest cities in one of the bluest states.
The people in my 'community' not only support impeachment, they're demanding it. Local elected officials. PCOs. The local rag.
Charity begins at home, I say.
**************
Name that city.
rcocean said...
The people who talk about the Trump doing nothing are accurate. Its hilarious your average conservatives reaction to wrong doing by the left. Its basically:
1) I'll just not vote (thereby rewarding the left and making it easier for them)
2) I'll hole in a cabin with my guns if things get bad. Let them come and get me!
Just beautiful losers.
****************
Besides believing your own febrile delusions, your evidence for this is....what?
A fuckuvalot of those conservatives you dismiss are combat vets armed with weapons they know how to use. You think they will just go to ground?
SNORT
Contempt for the people has its consequences. Violence is ALWAYS just below the surface courtesies, willing to exert itself should one be threatened. That’s why the left has ginned up antifa. But. There are more quiet gun clubs and quasi-militias in the USA than there are pasty loudmouth antifa fascists. Way more. With 300-million guns and good aim. This is exactly why we have a second amendment and hunting has nothing to do with it.
“A fuckuvalot of those conservatives you dismiss are combat vets armed with weapons they know how to use. You think they will just go to ground?”
And hence, the push by the left to essentially ban the AR-15, the civilian version of our main battle rifle and carbine for better than half a century now. With rare exceptions (e.g. Hunter Biden), most of our military was taught riflery on this platform.
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