Althouse: "Turkey rebuffed U.S. calls for a cease-fire in northeastern Syria as it pressed ahead Wednesday with an offensive targeting Syrian Kurdish militants and demanded that the fighters lay down their arms...."

October 16, 2019

"Turkey rebuffed U.S. calls for a cease-fire in northeastern Syria as it pressed ahead Wednesday with an offensive targeting Syrian Kurdish militants and demanded that the fighters lay down their arms...."

"Turkey launched the offensive last week to rout Kurdish-led forces it says pose a threat to Turkish national security. Erdogan rejected a U.S. offer to broker a truce, saying in a speech before parliament Wednesday that Turkey had 'never in its history sat down at a table with terrorist groups.' Turkish officials view Syrian Kurdish forces as terrorists for their links to the Kurdistan Workers’ Party, or PKK, which has waged a decades-long war for autonomy in Turkey. 'We are not looking for a mediator for that,' Erdogan said of talks with Kurdish fighters. He said Turkey and allied Syrian rebels plan to forge ahead to establish a buffer zone some 20 miles into Syria. 'Nobody can stop us,' he said.... 'He needs to stop the incursion into Syria,' [Secretary of State Mike] Pompeo said of the Turkish president. 'We need a cease-fire, at which point we can begin to put this all back together again.'"

WaPo reports.

ADDED: "Turkey-Kurd Conflict ‘Has Nothing to Do With Us,’ Trump Says." The NYT reports.

77 comments:

Big Mike said...: Time to wreck the Turkish economy. Make the suffer.; 10/16/19, 11:05 AM
n.n said...: Kurds are not a monolithic group. This expectation was never in question.; 10/16/19, 11:05 AM
YoungHegelian said...: Probably about 95%+ of the Turkish army's weapons are purchased from NATO countries, the majority being American. Sooner or later, the Turks are going to need to buy more. What are they going to do if NATO says "No"?

"Buy from the Russians" you say. Well, they could, if they want to begin the long & sorry process of retro-fitting their Army with Russian weapons by & large inferior to their NATO counterparts. They also have to train their troops in the use and maintenance of those weapons, a very long & expensive process. The Russians will also be justifiably suspicious that the Turks will leak the secrets of their weapons systems to NATO.

In short, the longer the incursion goes on, the more damage gets done to the Turkish Army by a NATO arms embargo.; 10/16/19, 11:11 AM
Anonymous said...: I've roughly and generally liked Trump's foreign policy since he took office, but this was a blunder of massive proportions. Here's to hoping that something positively can be salvaged out of this.; 10/16/19, 11:12 AM
sunsong said...: donald has royally fucked things up and who knows where this will lead; 10/16/19, 11:14 AM
gilbar said...: So, just to be clear;
The Wahpoo (and, in Fact; ALL proper progressives) thinks that
The United States should be at War with Islamic states that oppose kurdish nationhood?

As Barry O'Bama would say:
The turn of the century Is Calling, They Want Their Foreign Policy Back

So, W Bush was Right, after ALL? Good to know; 10/16/19, 11:15 AM
Narr said...: DJT's mistake was not sending Mark, CEL, and Ken B; but then we've* created such a diversion for our pals Vlad and Recip that the Chest-Pounders have to stay here and deal with us.

Narr
Nowadays it takes no time at all to perform genocide

*Rational human adults; 10/16/19, 11:15 AM
Jerry said...: The way I look at it (which may not be horribly valid) is that we don't really owe Turkey anything after they refused passage to our forces in GW2. They're a NATO ally, but (IMO) NATO's pretty much outlived its usefulness. As a Cold War remnant, it's pretty unlikely Russia's gonna try to grab Turkey at this point. (They've got their hands full with the Ukraine, after all.) I don't believe the NATO agreements require us to support aggression by a NATO member against a non-member - which is what Turkey's essentially doing.

If they annex Syria, well... do we do a Gulf War 1 and try to free it? What IS our responsibility in that region?

The Kurds... fall under the 'enemy of my enemy is possibly a friend, but more likely just the enemy's enemy' IMO. There is no monolithic 'Kurdish' nationality - it's just a tribe, with a lot of internal factions and spread widely in the ME.

But we REALLY look for a 'good guy' in the region to ally with. Temporarily, in the early '00s, that was the Kurds. However - that was a certain group, in a sharply defined region, for a certain specific reason. No group that calls themselves 'Kurds' is automatically the 'good guys' in a conflict, nor are they someone we should automatically support over others.

And to be honest, with the increased output we've got as far as oil goes, our dependence on the ME is dropping hard. I'm starting to be all for just pulling back all our assets in Turkey and the ME and going "Okay, you guys just settle your shit out yourselves, we want no part at all of any of you. You'll get no money, no aid, no nothing. All we've been doing is enabling your worst selves, and we won't do that any more."; 10/16/19, 11:20 AM
Hagar said...: I do wish the George W. administration had not come up with this "terrorism" and "fighting the war on terrorism" B.S. Nothing good is ever to come of using anodyne euphemisms to explain the reasons for your actions, and in this case, it was an open invitation for your adversaries to pick up the terms and using them against you.; 10/16/19, 11:35 AM
Hagar said...: Of course Erdogan is not going to listen any cease fire proposals and "negotiations." This is a put up job between Turkey, Iran, and Russia with the U.S. and "world" reactions "war gamed" in advance. It is going to proceed as planned unless stopped by some unforeseen development, probably involving considerable force of some kind.; 10/16/19, 11:41 AM
sunsong said...: donald is a cruel, despicable, self-serving ass

he has caused unimaginable harm in the ME

may he be held accountable...may it be so!; 10/16/19, 11:46 AM
readering said...: I guess that's why yesterday POTUS and his national security advisor were busy trying (unsuccessfully) to spring a surprise meeting at the WH with their son's killer on a hapless UK couple.; 10/16/19, 11:49 AM
MBunge said...: "Turkey-Kurd Conflict ‘Has Nothing to Do With Us,’ Trump Says."

He's not wrong.

Mike; 10/16/19, 11:51 AM
TreeJoe said...: Trump taking a hard-left stance on middle-eastern wars. Nice.; 10/16/19, 11:52 AM
Fernandinande said...: "Turkey-Kurd Conflict ‘Has Nothing to Do With Us,’ Trump Says.

He is correct.

What are any of those European, Asian and South American countries doing about it? Canada?; 10/16/19, 11:53 AM
Tomcc said...: Sure looks like a bad situation for the Kurds. I might be inclined to think that a UN sponsored "safe zone" might be an option; and then I remember Srebrenica. Does the UN even recognize the Kurds desire for an autonomous area?; 10/16/19, 11:56 AM
Lucid-Ideas said...: "Lay down your arms"

If you are from that region, under no circumstances, ever, ever lay down your arms.; 10/16/19, 11:57 AM
Jupiter said...: The Kurdish birth rate is much higher than that of the Turks (the central Asians who drove the Christian Greeks out of Anatolia). They will be the majority in a couple decades at the present rate. A united Kurdistan would have a demographic claim to much of Turkey.; 10/16/19, 12:08 PM
Francisco D said...: he has caused unimaginable harm in the ME ...may he be held accountable...may it be so!

Oh the irony from an Obama supporter.

Are you guys turning into Neo-cons now?; 10/16/19, 12:11 PM
Michael K said...: Blogger sunsong said...

donald is a cruel, despicable, self-serving ass

I'm coming to agree with whoever said sunsong was Inga.

This stuff is unhinged.; 10/16/19, 12:17 PM
Dear corrupt left, go F yourselves said...: Mattis: You won’t believe how Obama and Biden bungled Iraq and allowed the rise of ISIS; 10/16/19, 12:18 PM
narayanan said...: https://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/Turkey-using-tanks-upgraded-by-Israel-in-offensive-against-the-Kurds-604819

....

All the main systems of the M60-A1 tank, which were originally manufactured in the United States in the 1960s, were replaced with more advanced and modern systems already integrated into the main battle tanks of the IDF at a cost of $687 million.

Between 2003 and 2010, some 170 M60-A1 tanks were fitted with a 120 mm. cannon as well as advanced fire and turret control systems, and a new power unit with a 1000HP engine and transmission. The tanks were also fitted with hybrid armor (both active and passive) over its frontal arc.

Dozens of other subcontractors were involved in the project, with Elbit systems as the primary subcontractor and smaller defense companies Urdan and Orlite also taking part.

“In order to continue with the positive contribution to peace and stability in the region that Turkey is located, it makes it compulsory for our armed forces to possess strong as well as deterrent capabilities,” Turkey’s then-national defense minister Vecdi Gönül was quoted by the Defense Turkey news website as saying.

Turkey and Israel had been close allies since the 1960s in the defense industry, security cooperation, intelligence sharing and military training, which peaked with the 1994 Defense Cooperation Agreement and 1996 Military Training Cooperation
Agreement.
___________________
Erdogan sent flotilla to Gaza too; 10/16/19, 12:19 PM
narayanan said...: Anybody know who is laying out green stuff in DC and Congress on behalf of Kurds in Syria?; 10/16/19, 12:22 PM
narciso said...: this is why henry cabot lodge led the opposition to the league of nations,; 10/16/19, 12:23 PM
n.n said...: Carve Turkey, slice Syria, establish Kurdovo, force immigration reform, or any of several other humanitarian solutions. A South African solution where Kurds lynch Kurds, and we lynch Turks, Syrians, and Iraqis to gerrymander the regional administrative model. A wicked solution, sure, but for a noble cause.; 10/16/19, 12:29 PM
Michael K said...: More on what is going on with Turkey and the Kurds.

From the time of Augustus Caesar until Constantine, the Roman emperor was protected by a corps of soldiers known as the Praetorian Guard. Over time, the Praetorians became the real power in Rome, appointing and deposing emperors at will.

In our time, praetorianism has come to mean despotic military rule, something associated with countries in which the army is the real power behind the government. Praetorianism would seem to be incompatible with republican government, although the attempted coup against President Charles de Gaulle in 1961 arose from a praetorian bent on the part of the French officers who sought to depose him over of his intention to grant independence to Algeria.

It is troubling to note that when it comes to President Trump, many people who purport to be defenders of healthy U.S. civil-military relations have adopted what can only be called a praetorian view. The most recent examples have come in the wake of his decision to withdraw U.S. troops from northern Syria against the advice of the military or “without consulting the Pentagon.” I happen to believe the decision was a bad one but the idea that the president is always obligated to accept military advice flies in the face of the meaning of civilian control of the military.

But the apparent allure of anti-Trump praetorianism can be traced back to the beginning of his presidency. The most extreme example was articulated by the well-respected Georgetown law professor Rosa Brooks, a senior Pentagon appointee during the Obama presidency and author of “How Everything Became War and the Military Became Everything.”

One nice thing about moderation is that I get to spend more time at Ricochet and Chicagoboyz.; 10/16/19, 12:32 PM
Dust Bunny Queen said...: While I like and admire what I have heard about the Kurds......I am aware that what I have heard is probably and mostly likely NOT THE FULL STORY.

The Kurdish people are not one homogeneous group. The Middle East is a giant mess and has been since the arrogant Europeans decided to divy up the area and draw artificial lines with no regard for the demographics and political history of the area.

So...while I might have some emotional feelings about what I THINK I know about the various factions....Predicating an intervention into the inner workings of other countries based on emotion is beyond stupid.

Acting on impulse rather than carefully assessing the facts and deciding what is the most effective, prudent and expeditious plan of action, is why we are all in this mess.

Sooooo. All you who want to condemn Trump. Jump on the Trump fucked up (maybe he did. Maybe not) Joint the Orange man bad bandwagon. Go right ahead. That is your right.

However....be aware that you don't know everything. In fact, we know very little. I admit it. Do you?; 10/16/19, 12:34 PM
J. Farmer said...: Trump has been talking about ending endless wars for years now, but he still hasn't ended any of them. Get the troops out of Afghanistan, out of Iraq, out of Syria, and cancel our foolish deployment of troops to Saudi Arabia. It is sickening how easily foreign autocrats have determined that they can roll Trump simply by fawning over and flattering his shockingly insecure ego.; 10/16/19, 12:35 PM
Ken B said...: If it has nothing to do with us, why sanctions? Why the earlier tweet about his wisdom a D destroying their economy?; 10/16/19, 12:35 PM
Dust Bunny Queen said...: Why border lines drawn with a ruler in WW1 still rock the Middle East

History Bitches. Learn it.

:-); 10/16/19, 12:37 PM
narayanan said...: Hagar said... I do wish the George W. administration had not come up with this "terrorism" and "fighting the war on terrorism" B.S.
_______________
GWB did worse than that to my view. When he called Islam religion of peace after meeting with Bernard Lewis which put that Gentleman in tough spot to gainsay American President.; 10/16/19, 12:37 PM
Narr said...: narayanan@1222 asks a good question. Just where does all this Kurd-love come from, all of a sudden? As if most of the squealers (I'm looking at you, sunnyboy) could find Syria on a map of Syria.

This is going to be a huge disaster for many, but not for us. The age of rapid, large-scale military action on the ground is over for almost all the militaries in the world (and dats good!). Even with Israeli upgrades to the Turkish tanks, tanks aren't really good for maintaining order over restive populations; nor are fighter-bombers and heavy artillery.

The Israeli experience in Lebanon should be instructive.

OTOH those weapon systems aren't much better for doing serious genocide either, wee-wee-ers notwithstanding.

Narr
Just another clusterfuck among muzzies; 10/16/19, 12:42 PM
Jersey Fled said...: I think Donald is right about this one. We can't solve every conflict everywhere in the world. Especially given how little help we typically get from our supposed allies.

Let's sit this one out.; 10/16/19, 12:43 PM
rcocean said...: i get so tired of the NYT/WaPo/MSM PARAPHRASING what Trump said. Or quoting one sentence out of context. I'm sure he said a lot more then "Hey, its not our fight". This whole situation is becoming more clear. Turkey thinks the kurds are terrorists and is determined to secure their own border by occupying north Syria. They were coming no matter what, and they'll take the economic hit. Trump just decided to get out of the way, avoid US-Turkey casualties and solve the problem thru diplomacy and sanctions.

But to the Trump haters and neo-con romper room crowd, this is all about "Surrender" "Cowardice" "The death of honor" and "Selling out our noble Kurd allies" - this is a foreign tempest in a tea-pot 6,000 miles away, and has zero to do with US security. The Turks can take care of Isis - our only interest there.; 10/16/19, 12:47 PM
rcocean said...: Trump doesn't like American boys coming home maimed or in body bags. He's not into "playing Risk" with their lives. Good God, if we'd elected McCain in 2008, we'd have gotten into 3 wars - at least.; 10/16/19, 12:49 PM
rcocean said...: I don't think its "The kurds laying out Green stuff" - I think some group hates Turkey and Russia or thinks endless Civil war in Syria is a good thing. Probably some big Republican donors. I don't know who.

When Adelson, singer, koch brothers, or the chamber of commerce talks, all the R Senators Jump - except for Ron Paul.; 10/16/19, 12:52 PM
rcocean said...: I love how everyone is siding with the Kurds over the Turks despite not knowing ANYTHING about either group. Turkey is an important ally for all kinds of reasons. the Kurds in Syria? Not so much.; 10/16/19, 12:55 PM
Gusty Winds said...: The fake ABC clip aired on World News tonight where they doctored a video of a Kentucky gun range and tried to pass it off as fighting in Syria, tells me the "slaughter" isn't actually happening.; 10/16/19, 12:57 PM
Drago said...: readering, who learned of the Kurds literally 15 minutes ago, is now well versed in what is happening in the Middle East!!

And we see the democratics refusing to speak about real jobs, the roaring economy despite a global recession/slowdown, the revised Trade Deals (including the massive $50B agricultural purchase by China of US goods from US farmers (the previous record purchase deal was $16B!!)) as well as their continuing Hoax Impeachment (no subpoena penalties since these are hoax subpoena's & secret hearing with dem partisan secret witnesses giving secret testimony which is not subject to challenge from democrat/Soros partisans) all on top of the Hoax Collusion collapse and NOW the dems have all turned into Neocon warmongers who desire endless wars.....well!

LOL

Is it any wonder the 2020 election modelers are saying Trump looks very very strong against the lunatic lefty base.

Quite frankly, I am greatly comforted by the continued insanity put forth by Inga/Sunsong, Freder, ARM, readering etc.

The moment any of these cats begins to sound sane I'll know the dems are finally catching on to what reality is all about, though I have zero confidence they can adapt. The ability to adapt is what differentiates conservatives from stuck in the mud slow thinking leftists/LLR-leftists.; 10/16/19, 1:02 PM
Drago said...: rcocean: "I love how everyone is siding with the Kurds over the Turks despite not knowing ANYTHING about either group."

readering and sunsong/Inga don't even know who the different Kurdish factions are and what they want.

The Kurds in Syria that these idiots think they are talking about are aligned at the hip with the PKK in Turkey which is a Maoist commie terrorist crew that has killed thousands of innocents in Turkey over the years and who are literally designated a terrorist crew by the lefts beloved European surrender artists.

BTW, the Europeans fully expected the US to take permanent ownership of thousands of EU muslim citizen terrorists who were captured in the ME fighting for ISIS.

So lefties, what is the Europeans responsibility here?

Don't worry, we know you have absolutely no answer to that question. At all.; 10/16/19, 1:06 PM
Black Bellamy said...: I need to know how many American lives are the Kurds worth. Just looking for anyone to come out and let me know. Because we're up to 76 right now since this ISIS thing started, and we're done with that, so now we're going to be spending blood on the Kurds alone. And I would like for someone to say this is my name and this the number of additional Americans I would accept putting in the ground so we can provide security to our Kurdish...friends?; 10/16/19, 1:14 PM
J. Farmer said...: Why border lines drawn with a ruler in WW1 still rock the Middle East

That was the thesis of Fromkin's fantastic 1989 book A Peace to End All Peace: The Fall of the Ottoman Empire and the Creation of the Modern Middle East.; 10/16/19, 1:15 PM
Michael K said...: The Israeli experience in Lebanon should be instructive.

A very important consideration.; 10/16/19, 1:16 PM
Michael K said...: It is sickening how easily foreign autocrats have determined that they can roll Trump simply by fawning over and flattering his shockingly insecure ego.

Think about the lobbyists of DC. Look at the fury when he pulls out 50 troops. Trump does not have an "insecure ego." That's silly. If he did, he would have wilted long ago under the onslaught.

Millions and millions buy these politicians. Trump has the indecency to be rich BEFORE politics,

We have a praetorian state alongside the Deep One of the Intel community.; 10/16/19, 1:21 PM
John henry said...: Turkey launched the offensive last week to rout Kurdish-led forces it says pose a threat to Turkish national security.

"Kurdish-Led" tells me nothing about who the "forces" were. It does tell me, sort of, who they were not. It makes me think that the "forces" were NOT Kudish.

So who were they? Syrians? Turks? Nigerians? Chileans?

The WaPo tries to lie to us again for reasons I can't even guess at. Why would they want to hide who the forces are?

And what does "forces" mean in this context? Does it mean the army or military of an organized nation such as Syria or Iran? An organized revolutionary militia like ISIS? (ISIL?) A rag-tag bunch of Bedouins? Something else?

This makes no sense at all to me.

PDJT is right. A border spat between Syria and Turkey is not our problem. Unless it is our problem because NATO treaties require it to be our problem. (And why the Hell are we in NATO anyway? What possible interest do we have? What possible benefit does it bring us? But that's a discussion for another day)

John Henry; 10/16/19, 1:29 PM
Jim at said...: Once again I ask, who put us in Syria in the first place and under what congressional authorization?

Answer the question sunsong, readering, et al.; 10/16/19, 1:31 PM
Milwaukie guy said...: Turkey has asked for NATO assistance. Maybe Germany, with their longstanding military advisor role and onetime ally of the Turks, should take the Western lead in this conflict. But, as suggested above, why not Canada? They have a lot of veteran peacekeeping deployments.

Let's hear more from the Christians and Yazidis about the Kurdish comrades. It's got to be good.

No U.S. casualties thus far. But the NYT has already a feature dummied up for Americans who died in the liberation of Syrian Kurdistan. It would be sad and not reflect well on the President.; 10/16/19, 1:39 PM
J. Farmer said...: Think about the lobbyists of DC. Look at the fury when he pulls out 50 troops.

I agree that the Establishment loves endless wars and will fight tooth and nail to keep them going. But part of the reason we elected Trump was so that he could buck the Establishment, not be captured by them.

Trump does not have an "insecure ego." That's silly. If he did, he would have wilted long ago under the onslaught.

Respectfully disagree. I think the evidence for Trump's ego fragility is quite substantial: the serial trophy wives, the slapping his name on everything from helicopters to water bottles to steaks to border games, the incessant need to be liked, the vanity, the constant hyperbole, the need to respond to every perceived slight, the obsession with hyperbolic superlatives (e.g. greatest, best, most, etc.). To play armchair psychologist for a second, Trump strikes me as someone with an extremely fragile ego who is constantly in need of outside validation.; 10/16/19, 1:45 PM
Milwaukie guy said...: I read Spy magazine, too.; 10/16/19, 2:06 PM
Michael K said...: To play armchair psychologist for a second, Trump strikes me as someone with an extremely fragile ego who is constantly in need of outside validation.

I see it as a branding thing. Trophy wives is not necessarily a sign of fragile ego. I have friends that know Ivana. She is a bitch.; 10/16/19, 2:28 PM
BarrySanders20 said...: John Henry asks: "So who were they? Syrians? Turks? Nigerians? Chileans?"

The People's Front of Judea.
Or the Judean People's Front.
Or the Popular Front.

One of those, maybe.; 10/16/19, 2:35 PM
Friendo said...: Sunsong" donald is a cruel, despicable, self-serving ass

he has caused unimaginable harm in the ME

may he be held accountable...may it be so!"

Yes or no, Sunsong: will you send your son, daughter, niece, nephew, grand kids, etc. to die in NE Syria for a border dispute that is not a national security threat, and for which the Congress has not authorized use of force?; 10/16/19, 2:42 PM
rehajm said...: Topic for discussion: More fragile ego: Hillary Clinton or Donald Trump?; 10/16/19, 2:59 PM
rehajm said...: Once upon a time in New York City, capitalism was revered. Financial success was an admirable pursuit but a competitive, rough and tumble sport. Wealth creators were respected. Ostentatiousness was celebrated. Branding mattered. Luxury brands were aspirational.; 10/16/19, 3:07 PM
rehajm said...: The Thomason's taught the Clintons to never apologize.; 10/16/19, 3:08 PM
Seeing Red said...: He’s perfect for the job then! Lolol

An American ego. An outsized personality for an outsized country.

At least he talks about US vs I. I. I. I. Like Obambi.; 10/16/19, 3:11 PM
Seeing Red said...: Topic for discussion: More fragile ego: Hillary Clinton or Donald Trump?

Or the “journalists?”; 10/16/19, 3:12 PM
Rabel said...: DBQ said:

"History Bitches. Learn it."

The idea that the Middle East's problems are the fault of the West is only reasonable if one doesn't consider the history before the Europeans arrived.

What would it be like today without those lines on a map? A little bit of heaven? Or maybe those lines kept a terrible situation from becoming worse. And yes, the Middle East could definitely be worse off that it currently is.

It's the same old blame game, DBQ - everything bad is caused by the West and everything would be wonderful if we just minded our own business.; 10/16/19, 3:15 PM
narciso said...: i'm guessing kurds and perhaps some assyrians, one of the militias there are called sootoo, (sic) if you recall in pilgrim, the Saracen, sought sanctuary among one particular afghan tribe to conduct his experiments,; 10/16/19, 3:47 PM
Narr said...: If Rabel@315 has a point, it's not a clear one.

Whether or not DBQ is correct on the history of European bungling in the GME (and she is), the problems are now in the hands of the people(s) that live there--exactly where they should have been all along. Certainly, nowhere has DBQ said anything as ludicrous as you suggest.

Maybe the ME needs to get worse before it can get better.

Those lines on the map tore apart friends and forced together enemies; even in places where there is some historical-cultural unity (Tunisia, Egypt, even Syria was once such a place!) attitudes towards nation, religion, tribe and family are not as easily erased as many here, in their arrogance and ignorance, seem to think.

Narr
Everything may not be wonderful if "we" just minded our own business, but maybe "we" should try; 10/16/19, 3:52 PM
Ingachuck'stoothlessARM said...: will Trump pardon a Turkey this year?; 10/16/19, 4:11 PM
Dust Bunny Queen said...: Rabel said It's the same old blame game, DBQ - everything bad is caused by the West and everything would be wonderful if we just minded our own business.

Is that what I said or what you wish I had said? Did you read the article linked?

However, our meddling in the Middle East before WWI and after certainly has had an effect. Whether that we have made things better or worse is impossible to know. The issue is that not every event in the world requires Super America to rush to the rescue without knowing just WTF is really going on.

The hubris of the West is to think that every society acts with the same motivations and desires as ours. This is not the case. If we go into any part of the world and think that if we could just make "them" to be like "we" are then everything will be better. Just impose the template of Democracy or Christianity, or whatever political persuasion is the popular one of the day, then we will fix the world.

Just like the Progressives today think that if ONLY we can make Socialism the ruling party then all will we well in the United States. Down with Capitalism and up with Socialism. With no real idea of the ramifications or unintended consequences of trying to impose that template on unwilling subjects. We have no idea what the ramifications of imposing Western values on a Middle Eastern Society will be.

We can see what the results of the WWI carving up of countries that we had no real grasp of understanding has done. Do we want to repeat this over and over and over.

History....LEARN it or repeat it.

We know so little about so much of what is happening.; 10/16/19, 4:21 PM
narciso said...: well if there wasn't a Lawrence, would have been a rising of the arabs against the turks, the turks certainly tried the jihad card against the west, would the hashemites have stayed as keepers of the shrines, and ibn saud still wandering around in the nejd, would the colony in the levant have expanded, into what would become Israel, all open questions,; 10/16/19, 4:40 PM
Begonia said...: I DON'T want to intervene in Syria. I just think that by pulling the few troops out of the way in Syria, Trump upset a very delicate balance. Ben Shapiro said it better than I could in his tweets, so I'm just going to shamelessly copy them here:

The argument that we had to pull a small number of troops from the Turkish border region to end a “forever war” is nonsensical.

The withdrawal is far likelier to lead to an increase in violence and terrorism that requires American re-intervention, just as it did when Obama did it in Iraq.

This isn’t “how many Americans die for the Kurds.” It is “how many Americans need to stand there so the Kurds don’t die.”

The Turks aren’t interested in warring with us. The proof: they didn’t for years on end while US troops were present. The day after we pulled out, they started killing Kurds.

The other thing that really bugs me is that even if you do agree with the pullout of our troops--even if you do agree that they shouldn't have been there at all--you HAVE to admit that it could have been better planned. As it is, Turkey was shelling close to existing US troops and putting them at risk. And if it had been better planned, our troops wouldn't have needed to just leave all of the military stuff that we just left behind at that military base for the Russian mercenaries to grab.; 10/16/19, 5:15 PM
Wince said...: ... demanded that [they] lay down their arms..

Kind of like what Democrats want to do to this country?; 10/16/19, 5:29 PM
Josephbleau said...: I have learned much from Democrats over the past 40 years. Now when Democrats want to have a war, all I have to say is “so you are ok with sending your sons and daughters to their death!” Then you are powerless before me.; 10/16/19, 6:05 PM
Josephbleau said...: By the way, Turkey has trouble buying Russian weapons because they are not compatible with NATO standards and would disrupt training exercises, not to mention a NATO war. They tried to buy S-300’s and that kind of thing is what will get NATO to pushing them out. Yes it’s also about sales volume.; 10/16/19, 6:10 PM
Michael K said...: The other thing that really bugs me is that even if you do agree with the pullout of our troops--even if you do agree that they shouldn't have been there at all--you HAVE to admit that it could have been better planned.

Begonia, have you reported to the Pentagon ? They obviosly need an experienced war planner.; 10/16/19, 6:24 PM
Narr said...: So, if we had stayed the course, everything would be fine . . . no war going on, nope, just some preparatory work to move a few brigades of mech (which in our modern day takes days and weeks) and our 50 (?) heroes just need to keep their chins up so the big bad Turk backs off.

To answer poor little confused Ben Shapiro's question, "How many Americans need to stand there so the Kurds [sic] don't die?"

I propose we start with one, named Ben Shapiro, and see what happens.

Now, according to Begonia, we learn that "Turkey was shelling close to existing US troops, putting them at risk."

Narr
Sounds like somebody needs to get their stories straight; 10/16/19, 6:52 PM
Milwaukie guy said...: Jeez. There wasn't even a battalion of U.S. infantry on a 300 mile front. Should the 25 or 50 or 100 spec operators waved their hands like traffic cops while the Turks drove around them? Read your army manual on human shield frontages. It'd be funny if it wasn't so sad.; 10/16/19, 7:23 PM
Drago said...: Begonia: "The other thing that really bugs me is that even if you do agree with the pullout of our troops--even if you do agree that they shouldn't have been there at all--you HAVE to admit that it could have been better planned."

Upon entering office Trump told the Pentagon to begin planning and preparations for pulling out of Syria.

They never did. They spent all their time thinking up new reasons to stick around. This has gone on for almost 3 years and finally Trump told them to get it done and it did.

This is the reality of almost 20 years of continuous ME wars where the entire military heirarchy knows nothing else and cannot pivot to new strategies. This is not the first time in our history this has occurred. In fact, in the modern era (WWI to present), this has been the case every single time.

I have listened to Naval Strategists suggest (and quite compellingly) the Pearl Harbor attack results, though a morally sapping temporary tactical defeat, accelerated the US change in strategy from plodding and ponderous though thunderous battleship navy tactics to over the horizon Naval Air warfare by at least 3 years. And thankfully within 6 months that change in leadership and strategy gave us our victory at Midway.

There are plenty of officers in the military that agree with Trump, but they are currently at the 04/05/06 level with a couple of 1 or 2 star guys thrown in. It will take another handful of years before they migrate to the very top of the chain of command and bring their strategic belief systems into play in alignment with President Trump.; 10/16/19, 7:24 PM
Michael K said...: There are plenty of officers in the military that agree with Trump, but they are currently at the 04/05/06 level with a couple of 1 or 2 star guys thrown in.

Iron clad rule "Trust no one above O 6.

True for years.; 10/16/19, 8:11 PM
Howard said...: Trump is Putin's bitch and you people are Donald's loyal yentas a cluck cluck cucking; 10/16/19, 8:54 PM
Howard said...: It's e-6, doc. Trust no zeros; 10/16/19, 8:55 PM
Michael K said...: Trump is Putin's bitch and you people are Donald's loyal yentas a cluck cluck cucking

Howard, nice of you to let us know whose bitch you are.

It's e-6, doc. Trust no zeros

Do you even know what that is ? Howard thinks I was talking about EM. Go away Howard and learn some terminology; 10/16/19, 9:35 PM
Drago said...: Howard: "Trump is Putin's bitch and you people are Donald's loyal yentas a cluck cluck cucking"

Howard thinks if he just keeps saying it over and over and over again and keeps using the wrong terms in the wrong way it will all just magically turn out alright.

LOL

It won't.

Incoherence on stilts.

Howard still doesn't even know what the different Kurdish groups are, where they are and what they are all about, but by gosh he's read other lefties and that's all he needs to continue bleating.

He's like a LLR Chuck with 1/1024th the vocabulary!; 10/16/19, 10:29 PM
Ken B said...: Begonia
Exactly right. But now the resident trumpkins will call Ben Shapiro a leftist. What they, preening as peaceniks, ignore is the Turkey ASKED PERMISSION to invade and TRUMP GAVE IT.; 10/16/19, 10:32 PM