October 13, 2019

"Of all the things Trump’s done, why pick on the Zelensky call? It’s as if Trump’s sins had been inscribed on ping pong balls and placed in a big tumbler..."

"... like the kind used to pick lottery numbers. 'And the winner is, "Zelensky phone call on July 25."'OK! Democrats and the press then all agree to get very worked up over the 'systematic attack on American democracy.' I still don’t believe what Trump did is a 'high crime' — that’s my story, and I’m sticking to it. I can think of 10 things he’s done that are worse, including firing Comey. And hiring Priebus. (And, yes, putting the children of families separated at the border into foster care—that was too harsh.) None of these justify removing Trump under the Constitution, or else every president in my lifetime would have been the subject of ongoing impeachment proceedings—which may be where we’re headed. Always Be Impeaching."

So begins Mickey Kaus in "Best Thing I've Read on Impeachment/It's way more complicated than the huffed-up MSM would have it." Much more at the link. I especially like the last 2 sentences (which are based on the observation that the Zelensky phone call issue turns on Trump's intent
Evolution has built our brains to conflate self-interest and justice. A good con man believes his own con. If “intent” is what counts, that might make Trump unimpeachable.
That "best thing" he's read is "Is It Ever OK for a President to Ask a Foreign Country to Investigate a Political Rival?/Sometimes, yes—which is why Donald Trump’s potential impeachment hinges on his motive in doing so" by lawprof Edward B. Foley (Politico). Excerpt:
Going back to America’s early days, there have been occasional instances in which presidents would have been justified had they sought foreign investigations into political rivals. In 1804, Aaron Burr contacted the British government, apparently to peddle a plan for severing part of the United States to form a new country in western territory. In response, President Thomas Jefferson had Burr prosecuted for treason, and he was found not guilty. We can stipulate that Jefferson was excessively involved in the treason trial. But had he instead simply asked for Britain’s assistance in gathering more information about Burr’s involvement in this plot, that would have been entirely appropriate given the high stakes for the country.

This is true despite the fact Jefferson was seeking reelection at the time and Burr, an incorrigibly ambitious politician, might still have coveted the presidency. It was unlikely that Burr would have been a serious rival to Jefferson’s reelection; the Federalist Party, which opposed Jefferson, hated Burr for having slayed its hero, Alexander Hamilton. But Burr was still active politically and could not be discounted completely. Whatever the circumstances of the electoral rivalries at that moment—and campaigns back then were, of course, very different from today—Jefferson as president would have been acting responsibly if he had requested Britain’s assistance in the investigation of Burr.

105 comments:

Susan said...

Why pick on The Call?

Because they never expected the transcript to be released. Then Adam Schiff's version would have been the evidence and, as a twofer, they could get secondary charges of obstruction for not releasing the transcript of the call.

Birkel said...

The reason is because none of the things Trump has done are criminal or unprecedented. This is all just OrangeManBad. 🍊

sunsong said...

may goodness and truth prevail here. may it be so!

Paul Zrimsek said...

Wait, firing Comey was worse? Was there a sensible person out there whose reaction to the firing was anything but "About fucking time"?

Drago said...

sunsong: "may goodness and truth prevail here. may it be so!"

Step 1: sunsong stops posting.

Step 2: Profits!

magamamma said...

Potus released the call, threw a monkey wrench into Shifty's plan, the people can read, They keep on lying , people have tuned out, they are afraid of Barr and Durham when the Shiff hits the fan. HIllary and Obama recruited Ukraine to dig up dirt on Trump, they paid for this hoax, Potus has done nothing wrong, except win in 2016 which they can't get over, If they succeed in this endeavor we might as well be living in a Banana republic.

Ken B said...

Susan nailed it in the first comment. They did not expect the transcript to be released. Hence Schiffs shenanigans

rehajm said...

WTF are all of the things Trump has done? I’m not buying your BS. If Hillary had won she’d be President. If Trump had all he’s done he wouldn’t be...

Narayanan said...

Politician who has boasted about it! To an audience to show his cred for big league.

Did Media even ask Trump to comment?

Trump isn't Inspector Clousseau.

Anybody doubt :
He would have told them he will be asking Ukraine to look into.

Lyle said...

It's very sad this academic couldn't just come out and say what the Democrats are trying to do is very stupid.

Kevin said...

Why this? Because it keeps the trope of Trump getting foreign assistance to win elections alive.

Remember, they need something not only to remove him from office but to erase the idea that Mueller investigated Trump and found nothing.

How else can the D’s explain Trump’s election and Hillary keep believing she really won?

Big Mike said...

Because the self-proclaimed "whistleblower" was in on Biden's Ukrainian corruption up to his eyeballs and hit the panic button.

Seeing Red said...

may goodness and truth prevail here. may it be so!


Bwaaaaaa

Narayanan said...

Side Q:
what was Burr position? And Federalist?
on slavery?

Would his territory have precipitated CSA schism?

Birkel said...

After Trump wins 54% of the total votes cast in November 2020, I wonder what Schitt and Nadler will do as former-chairmen?

Mary Beth said...

Narayanan said...

Why do you just post sentence fragments?

Le Stain du Poop said...

You think that firing that scumball traitor one-man crime wave Comey was "worse?"

Based on what????

narciso said...


isnt that what the steele dossier and operation crossfire was about,

https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2019/10/producers_of_the_flailing_impeachment_inquiry.html

involving not only british but Australian and Italian security services,

Amexpat said...

I think the bar for impeachment should be high and this, from what is known, falls short. The same was true for Clinton.

That said, Trump was stupid to do this in the manner he did. He should have known that this conversation would most likely get out and could be used against him. There's no legitimate reason for POTUS to ask the Ukrainians to investigate Biden or his son (the analogy with the treasonous Burr doesn't hold). If either broke US law, then the DOJ should start an inquiry and ask the Ukrainians for information in regards to a possible violation of US law. Violations of foreign laws are for foreign governments to pursue without goading from the POTUS.

Trump may very well benefit from this. Not because he's a political genius playing 4D chess, but because the Dems will overreach and bungle it and their point man on this is a preening prick that has no credibility.

jnseward said...

Nixon wasn’t threatened with #Impeachment because he was a bad President. His enemies wanted to get rid of him. Clinton wasn’t impeached because he was a bad President. His enemies wanted to get rid of him. Same was true of Andrew Johnson. Same is true of @realDonaldTrump.

Darrell said...

Why don't you list all the things Trump has done to warrant impeachment on a planet with a yellow sun?

Resistance game plan: Pick anything and bring out a panel of experts to make it sound illegal, immoral, or unethical without ever being specific as to actual law, etc. Have somber newspeople present the story as if 100 jumbo jets collided simultaneously.

Dear corrupt left, go F yourselves said...

Dems must impeach - he might get re-elected.

Ignore all dem crimes now!

Marc in Eugene said...

Too many people are ignorant of Mickey Kaus's work, unfortunately. The Times ought to replace any three (but not Ross Douthat) of its op-ed people with him.

Michael K said...

Then, of course, there is the president saying to the Russian, "Tell Vlad this is my last election. After that, I will have more flexibility."

Derek Kite said...

Is it my imagination or has the impeachment fervour already died down?

I think the Democrats made a serious mistake here. They are playing by the old rules, where people watched the news.

People don't watch the news, and people don't believe what is said on the news. So if someone was prompted to read something about this situation, what did they find? A bunch of pontificating and blathering, and some real information on how Biden's son was using his father's name to get lots of money, and that Biden himself got a little as well.

Impeachment and the fine details of this and that mean nothing. Biden is tainted with what was revealed, and he is sinking and probably will be out soon.

Trump being over the top or not the usual president is already baked in the cake. How he does something is expected to be a bit strange. But what he does and what he accomplishes get notice. Whatever he did, by design or the usual luck, is of interest and importance.

The fact of the disappearing influence of the media still hasn't sunk in. Even Trump doesn't go on and on about them anymore.

NorthOfTheOneOhOne said...

Why pick on the Zelensky call? Because a lot of DemocRATS are/were neck deep in the Obama administration's shenanigans in Ukraine. Zelensky was the anti-corruption candidate. He's the last person they want Trump teaming up with, especially with the dismal crew they've got going up against him. He stands a good chance of being re-elected and will have a lot of Obama like "flexibility" to take them all down before his term runs out.

traditionalguy said...

The message is how dare you investigate the systematic looting of the Ukraine following the CIA's carefully conducted regime change following an election that went out of their control. The loot either went to the Dems appointed billionaire bagmen (for a cut) or Putin's boys would scoff it up. This was a mini-replay of what happened in the USSR following the CIA's regime changing it. And that time the Bush Mafia got the loot. It was the Dem's turn.

And then along came Trump. And all it got him was being painted with the WE HAVE ALWAYS BEEN AT WAR WITH RUSSIA We brush that justified all the crimes committed both times.

Yancey Ward said...

The only mistake Trump made with Comey was not firing him 5 minutes after the inauguration. Same with Sally Yates, Andrew McCabe, and every other Obama political appointee still in the cabinet level positions, and still working in the White House, including the janitorial staff.

Indeed, I think Trump made a mistake even living and working in the White House. He should have set up shop in Cheyenne, Wyoming, or Fairbanks, Alaska.

Night Owl said...

Some of the saner democrats recognize that Trump hasn't done anything worse than any other President. Therefore to justify all the continuous rage, anger and hatred they need to convince themselves-- and more importantly, the voters-- he's the embodiment of evil*, and thus attack his intentions. This is Dem logic: If they know in their hearts that Trump is evil-- and they do!-- then ipso fatso, his intentions must be evil.

Unlike, say, Saint Obama, whose administration got foreign help to spy on Trump during the last campaign, and put kids in cages, and used drones to kill civilians, and destroyed Libya's stability which led to the great refugee crisis in Europe. We are supposed to believe that none of that was bad when Obama did it because the "light-bringer" was just a soul whose intentions were good.

The bullshit being peddled as fact by the left is that anything Trump does is impeachable because "Orange man bad". They have to make most Americans buy it if they are to win in 2020.

________
*The left act as if they believe every Republican politician holding or running for office is an evil Hilter-wannabe. But whoever is the current Republican occupant of the White House is always THE ABSOLUTE WORSE ONE EVAH!! When it comes to politics they emote and rationalize like teenagers. I've reached the conclusion that those who are emotionally retarded vote Democrat.

Yancey Ward said...

Paul Zrimsek asked:

"Is it my imagination or has the impeachment fervour already died down?"

It is dying down- significantly less intense this weekend than last weekend, but that doesn't mean it has ended- what is happening is that Pelosi is being put on the spot, and fake impeachment isn't going to work. Pelosi is going to have to either publicly back down, or she is going to have to hold an actual vote to open an inquiry. Does she have the votes? I don't know- she definitely has 200 sure votes, but does she have the final 18 needed?

Ken B said...

The politico piece is good but I find it easy to accept he is acting in good faith. And I think it very unlikely indeed you can prove there was no reason to investigate the Bidens. But this is a good roadmap for a climb down ....

Stephen said...

Althouse really likes Kaus's notion that a President who is incapable of distinguishing between the national interest, and his own personal interest, when any reasonable person would recognize that the are different, may be unimpeachable. That's actually a pretty sick idea. It also makes no sense. Madmen who lack the capacity to distinguish right from wrong are clearly impeachable based on their mad actions. Short of madness, standard legal and moral reasoning routinely holds sane persons to have knowledge (the highest level of scienter) even when they deny that they had it, on the basis that knowledge, even if denied, can be inferred from the facts. Lower levels of scienter that might make sense for impeachment, such as recklessness, can be shown on the basis of indifference to the facts--which seems pretty clear on this record, given the number of times that the Crowdstrike theory has been debunked.

Given this limitation, it is significant that Althouse also leaves out the key passage in the law prof article, which is that at this point the argument that Trump thought he was acting in the national intereat "strains credulity."

How about stepping away from the right wing talking points, Professor Althouse?

Ken B said...

Jnseward
Wrong about Johnson. He was a bad president. The impeachment was probably unjustified though on the merits. The real issue was policy not malfeasance.

narciso said...

How could he, yancey, Obama had set up a tripwire with sally yates, she had to be removed before you could move on comey, and even her replacement wasn't considered reliable, this couldn't happen unless the new atty general was picked, and sessions couldn't come in any earlier because of the narrow majority, now perhaps he could have brought back Mukasey, but he had a Russian connection through his son,

narciso said...

yes, poroshenko was knee deep with mr. z. as the recordings from that rogue Ukrainian parliamentarian show,

Ann Althouse said...

"Althouse really likes Kaus's notion that a President who is incapable of distinguishing between the national interest, and his own personal interest, when any reasonable person would recognize that the are different, may be unimpeachable. ... How about stepping away from the right wing talking points, Professor Althouse?"

You're missingthe most basic concept in The Federalist Papers:

"It is equally evident, that the members of each department should be as little dependent as possible on those of the others, for the emoluments annexed to their offices. Were the executive magistrate, or the judges, not independent of the legislature in this particular, their independence in every other would be merely nominal. But the great security against a gradual concentration of the several powers in the same department, consists in giving to those who administer each department the necessary constitutional means and personal motives to resist encroachments of the others. The provision for defense must in this, as in all other cases, be made commensurate to the danger of attack. Ambition must be made to counteract ambition. The interest of the man must be connected with the constitutional rights of the place. It may be a reflection on human nature, that such devices should be necessary to control the abuses of government. But what is government itself, but the greatest of all reflections on human nature? If men were angels, no government would be necessary. If angels were to govern men, neither external nor internal controls on government would be necessary. In framing a government which is to be administered by men over men, the great difficulty lies in this: you must first enable the government to control the governed; and in the next place oblige it to control itself."

Seeing Red said...

Given this limitation, it is significant that Althouse also leaves out the key passage in the law prof article, which is that at this point the argument that Trump thought he was acting in the national intereat "strains credulity."

How about delving into the law profs’ politics?

Trump has an “R” after his name. He has to go.

But — isn’t impeachment overturning the election?

We can’t have that.

He stays. The rapist did.

Michael K said...

The only mistake Trump made with Comey was not firing him 5 minutes after the inauguration. Same with Sally Yates, Andrew McCabe, and every other Obama political appointee still in the cabinet level positions, and still working in the White House, including the janitorial staff.

People keep forgetting, or ignoring , that he is alone. That's why his kids are around him. He has no allies. Sessions looked like one but folded 5 minutes after the left went after him. At least Sessions got off easy compared to Flynn. The lawfare people have no ethics, no morality,. Read "Bad Blood" the Theranos story. What was done to those people who developed any doubts was ferocious and criminal. Two doctors in Phoenix reported that the blood testing didn't work. The Theranos Gestapo sent fake patients into their waiting rooms where they had staged scenes of disruption.

The left have no morals and no pity. They are about power. They tasted it with Obama and want more,. They still cannot believe that Hillary lost.

narciso said...

Zelensky has had trouble removing the old guard sbu operatives, as well as implementing anti corruption laws because the dirty little secret is much of the verkhova rada, is in debted to oligarch like zylochevsky or akhmetov to name two,

Ann Althouse said...

It's funny that my quote from The Federalist features the word "emoluments." I was just laughing at Trump in his Minneapolis rally: "They say emoluments. Nobody ever heard of the word emoluments before. Emoluments, it's the craziest thing I've ever seen."

Wince said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Yancey Ward said...

Narciso asked:

"How could he, yancey, Obama had set up a tripwire with sally yates, she had to be removed before you could move on comey, and even her replacement wasn't considered reliable"

You fire everyone until you find one you have good reason to believe you can trust. They are fired the instant they receive the letters of termination, so you are free to fire then in any order you wish. Trump was far too naive on taking office, and that naiveté cost him the first two years of his presidency, and it continues to undermine him today. He at least learned the lesson a bit since, when he got rid of Coats at DNI, he also fired Brennan's friend Gordon at the same time preventing her from taking the spot on succession.

Now is the winter of our discontent made glorious summer by this son of New York said...

""Is it my imagination or has the impeachment fervour already died down?”

When the 51% Fox poll turned out to be bullshit, it was an own goal by Democrats. It created sort of a false high point, and now it sure does look like the same people want him impeached today as wanted him impeached the day he took office. In other words, an irredentist minority who didn’t like the result of the election, egged on by Hillary.

Zach said...

Dems have been going for a one punch knockout of Trump for going on four years now.

You know what you call a boxer who keeps going for a one punch knockout?

Dead.

It boggles the mind why they can't run someone sane with working class appeal and just win an election 52-48. You've got to work the body!

Wince said...

Of all the things Trump’s done, why pick on the Zelensky call? It’s as if Trump’s sins had been inscribed on ping pong balls and placed in a big tumbler... like the kind used to pick lottery numbers. 'And the winner is, "Zelensky phone call on July 25."'OK! Democrats and the press then all agree to get very worked up over the 'systematic attack on American democracy.'

Alternative theory:

This Democrat and media strategy is all being run out of a single "war room".

A war room run by a former president "who sought foreign investigations into political rivals" by delegating the job to others in the guise of a counter intelligence investigation.

Consequently, the best Obama defense to this potential scandal upon it being exposed is by analogy to Trump.

Coincidentally, lawprof Edward B. Foley advances such an argument by saying "there have been occasional instances in which presidents would have been justified had they sought foreign investigations into political rivals."

Foley is preemptively raising the best Obama defense to Durham and Horowitz investigations.

In other words, the motive may have been justified for the Obama, Clinton and the DNC using foreign intelligence assets to investigate Trump; but the motive was impure for Trump to ask a head of state for the investigation of Biden.

If you ask me, the more substantive difference, however, is the means rather than motive.

Trump asked a foreign head of state to investigate potential corruption involving CrowdStrike and the Bidens.

Obama and company actually employed illegal means to investigate a rival (FISA abuse, using foreign intelligence agencies and cut-outs to skirt US law, etc.)

But the Obama cabal is relying on the media to advance their "sometime justified" narrative instead.

It may be all they've got, but it's pretty powerful.

Now is the winter of our discontent made glorious summer by this son of New York said...

"sunsong said...
may goodness and truth prevail here. may it be so!”

People interested in truth ask questions and listen and engage people with different points of view. They don’t make pronouncements of what they consider to be right think, while holding their nose, and then dash.

narciso said...


https://www.newsbusters.org/blogs/nb/nicholas-fondacaro/2019/10/13/nbc-political-director-presses-mattis-attack-trump-general

Dear corrupt left, go F yourselves said...

"Note to MSM: Finding out the truth from a foreign government about the conduct in office of a Vice President (who’s also a current presidential candidate) is not ‘interfering in our election.’ "

Lance said...

“Too many people are ignorant of Mickey Kaus's work...”

I agree, but it’s Mickey’s fault. He so rarely wanders out from that Twitter cave of his, it’s easy to forget he’s still writing/commenting.

Now is the winter of our discontent made glorious summer by this son of New York said...

If giving your kid a ride on Air Force 2, so that he can make a lucrative deal with a Chinese company, a Chinese company involved in nuclear power and under investigation for sensitive technology transfers, BTW

https://nypost.com/2019/10/10/6-facts-about-hunter-bidens-business-dealings-in-china/

[The headline is the opposite of click bait, but you really should read it if you want to know what is going on with this China deal]

Anyway, if that’s not an “emolument” I can’t imagine what is.

Dear corrupt left, go F yourselves said...

Schitt spend 2.5 years making up claims that he had the smoking gun of Trump's collusion with Russia.

All lies.

Where is the punishment to that fraud? Adam Schitt must be removed.

Francisco D said...

President who is incapable of distinguishing between the national interest, and his own personal interest, when any reasonable person would recognize that the are different, may be unimpeachable. That's actually a pretty sick idea.

Stephen,

It is very hard to take you seriously, unless you are an earnest but uninformed high school sophomore. You conveniently leave out of your argument that it is in the national interest to find out if government officials (e.g., Biden, Clinton) are being paid off by foreign actors through their kids. The factual it is to Trump's advantage is irrelevant. You also leave out any mention of past presidents who acted in their own interest, maybe because IT HAS ONLY BEEN AN ISSUE SINCE TRUMP WAS ELECTED.

Now is the winter of our discontent made glorious summer by this son of New York said...

If they impeach Trump for this, when the R’s get the House back, and they will if they impeach Trump, and a Democrat wins. The Republicans should impeach that person for trying to raise taxes.

There is a school of thought that the Republicans like this impeachment talk, as long as it doesn’t go too far, as a way for the Lilliputians to tie down Gulliver, so to speak.

Now is the winter of our discontent made glorious summer by this son of New York said...

Mickey is the best, but he has been drummed out of the Democrat Party, but he still identifies. Mickey is evidence of what many have said, Trump is really a Democrat at heart. Mickey never signed on to the identity politics secret plan to become the permanent ruling party of the Democrats.

narciso said...

they want to change the rules, so we can't return to status quo ante, go to popular vote, or bring in more states, to tilt the senate, they have clearly expressed that view, and like with nuking the filibuster, they make good on their promises,

Now is the winter of our discontent made glorious summer by this son of New York said...

If it is not in the nation’s interest to feret out foreign interference in American elections, like this article in the New York Times that got Trump’s campaign manager filed that came from the Ukraine’s intelligence files, for example, what was the whole two year deal about the Russia accusation that Hillary made about? Note the date.

Secret Ledger in Ukraine Lists Cash for Donald Trump’s Campaign Chief

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/15/us/politics/paul-manafort-ukraine-donald-trump.html

Let’s compare the impact of that to the running of Facebook ads of Hillary wrestling with Jesus. Obviously the Ukraine had a far larger effect on the campaign than Russia.

narciso said...

since what happened with allen ho, we tightened up technology transfers, apparently not a lesson they've learned in the united kingdom,

Birkel said...

Imagine the surprise that "Stephen" is arguing against the interests of Biden, Pelosi, Kerry, Reid, and Romney.
And all the while imagining Xe is arguing against Trump.

Who killed irony?

Now is the winter of our discontent made glorious summer by this son of New York said...

Talked to Warren supporters at brunch. Biden will never be President of the United States. His best hope was a heartbeat stopping that never did. He was put there by the Clinton machine to keep an eye on things.

traditionalguy said...

Trump is against corruption in DC. That makes him the enemy of all of the Deep State and 90% of Congress....why he is un-American.

chuck said...

They are about power. They tasted it with Obama and want more.

Like tigers that develop a taste for human flesh. Obama was more successful in corrupting government than many give him credit for. I wondered what the consequence of electing a red diaper baby would be, now we know.

Narayanan said...

Big Mike said...
Because the self-proclaimed "whistleblower" was in on Biden's Ukrainian corruption up to his eyeballs and hit the panic button
_______
Panic first, continue in panic, Then they arrange to blow whistle with back dates on forms.

walter said...

Ken B said...
Susan nailed it in the first comment. They did not expect the transcript to be released. Hence Schiffs shenanigans
--
Schiffnanigans

Night Owl said...

Wince makes good points @ 1:47 pm about the media rolling out, as he calls it , the "sometimes justified narrative" as a way to cover for the Obama administration using foreigners to spy on Trump. It may indeed be a powerful argument; but as Wince also points out in his comment, the Obama administration likely broke laws through misuse of the FISA court. I haven't seen anyone point out anything that Trump has done that is actually illegal. Just this, as Scott Adams calls it, mind-reading bullshit about his intentions.

Maybe the Dems hope that the majority of Americans are too dim to see the distinction between what Obama's administration did in the shadows vs what Trump did transparently out in the open. But I think they underestimate the electorate. Consider how the made-up obstruction charge didn't work in the RUSSIA! RUSSISA! RUSSIA! hoax. People outside the TDS bubble can see things clearer than the Dems would like to believe.

Char Char Binks, Esq. said...

*slain

Char Char Binks, Esq. said...

Oh, I just found out that Zelensky is Jewish, so Schiff must be antisemitic.

Narayanan said...

Skylark said....

There is a school of thought that the Republicans like this impeachment talk, as long as it doesn’t go too far, as a way for the Lilliputians to tie down Gulliver, so to speak.
__________
Too bad none of the Republicans come from land of Gulliver or feel urge to find out.

William said...

It's all up to Barr.

If Barr does nothing—and based on his lack of action to-date that seems like a real possibility—all of this caterwauling from the left will continue unabated.

If Trump gets re-elected and the GOP doesn't regain the House, we'll have four more years of absolute intransigence. NOTHING will get done.

It's all up to Barr.

Damn sad state of affairs.

Narayanan said...

Pleased to fill out my fragments ...

Side Q:
what was Aaron Burr position?, And also Federalist?, Position -
on slavery?

(I'm assuming this is after Louisiana Purchase!?)

{Prof Flahy brought up Burr reach out to Britain... And Jefferson reach out to Britain also.}

If successful, Would territory Burr intended to wrest(le) away from Jefferson have precipitated an earlier CSA style schism?

Night Owl said...

One can't help but wonder if Trump purposely asked Ukraine to look into the Bidens knowing the left would run with it, which would lead to the inevitable comparison to what the Obama administration did to him. Trump is in the clear, because the bullshit intention argument is not going to get traction anywhere outside the TDS bubble. But if we drag what Obama's people did out in the open will it smell sweet or be rotten to the core?

But as William says, it's all up to Barr. If no one takes the initiative to examine the actions of the previous admin, then the Dems will continue to drag us through one fake scandal after another, all through Trump's next four years.

Michael K said...

To take a momentary break from Impeachment 24/7 Trump is winning the trade war with China, while Democrats whine about Ukraine and defend Biden.

Jim Cramer has been a Trump critic. Of course he doesn't know as much about economics as Ritmo and ARM.

Michael K said...

Mickey never signed on to the identity politics secret plan to become the permanent ruling party of the Democrats.

Mickey was good friends with Cathy Seipp who was my favorite conservative. I met Mickey and Andrew Breitbart through her.

Also Patrick Frey who has gone off the NeverTrumper deep end.

Night Owl said...

If no one takes the initiative to examine the actions of the previous admin, then the Dems will continue to drag us through one fake scandal after another, all through Trump's next four years.

If one examines this through the WWE lens, it may be that Trump likes it that way.

Fernandinande said...

Trump’s potential impeachment hinges on his motive in doing so

Then it's a bad law.

Now is the winter of our discontent made glorious summer by this son of New York said...

Today the republican majority is not judging the President Clinton with fairness, but impeaching him with the vengeance.

In the investigation of the President, fundamental principles which Americans hold dear, privacy, fairness, checks and balances have been seriously violated.

And why?

As we are here today, because the republicans in the House [of Representatives] are paralyzed with hatred of President Clinton. And until the republicans free themselves of this hatred our country will suffer.
. - Nancy Pelosi

Worked out great for Republicans, didn’t it.

tim maguire said...

Why pick the call?

The call is a McGuffin. Impeachment has to revolve around something, but the specific something is unimportant.

rehajm said...

Today the republican majority is not judging the President Clinton with fairness, but impeaching him with the vengeance.

Correct or not Republicans believed the 'family values' platform was a winner for them while President Clinton was banging everyone he could. I've never really understood why Clinton felt he had to lie about it, even to Congress. 'Hell ya I boinked her!' would have put an end to it.

FullMoon said...

Many people say the Dems did not expect the transcript to be released.
If that is true, they must really have expected the call to be a real disaster.
Were they mislead by the leaker and his/her handlers?
Did Schiff et al fall for a blatant lie?

No matter how they spin it, the call was no big deal.

Ray - SoCal said...

Schiff has 2 staffers that used to work with the whistleblower in the Whitehouse, under Obama.

Hypothesis:

The whistleblower was actively looking for anything to impeach Trump, coordinating with Schiff, and the lawfare group after The Mueller impeachment threat dissipated.

Big Mike said...

In the investigation of the President, fundamental principles which Americans hold dear, privacy, fairness, checks and balances have been seriously violated.

Point of information for Nancy Pelosi and Skylark alike. William Jefferson Clinton had committed felony perjury. And he got away with it.

MD Greene said...

So the two-week expose about how America is and always was racist was just a place-holder to be abandoned when something juicier, like the Kelensky whistleblower's charge, captured the public imagination?

Or was it on one of those ping pong balls that wasn't selected in the drawing?

Narayanan said...

Blogger Fernandistein said...in response to ...

Trump’s potential impeachment hinges on his motive in doing so

Then it's a bad law.
___________
did I hear Yoda say : many Bird with one net
stable genius catch.

Narayanan said...

If one examines this through the WWE lens, it may be that Trump likes it that way.
_________
Am I getting this right?

D's are putting on the under card with blaring announcement of Main Event as Trump shows on YUGE SCREEN.

Narayanan said...

When did Media Chorus of Obama Scandal Free meme start?

To build future narrative! Against Trump.

Narayanan said...

rehajm said...

I've never really understood why Clinton felt he had to lie about it, even to Congress. 'Hell ya I boinked her!' would have put an end to it.
_______&&
What were polls telling him at the time?

He was Still thinking with Arkansas mindset?

Hillary the Feminist ?
She hatched plan to attack conspiracies.

Bill brag/boast/claim childhood illness made him infertile?

Chelsea paternity?

Narayanan said...

FullMoon said...

Were they mislead by the leaker and his/her handlers?
Did Schiff et al fall for a blatant lie?
________
Did Trump grab xhimer by wussy?

Did he turn the spy: that would be persuasion

Ambrose said...

The Democrats have had the votes for impeachment (but not conviction) from the day the 2018 Congrees took their seats. They have just been waiting for a reason they could convince themselves was plausible.

Michael K said...

More bad news for ARM and R/V.

All reporters sometimes bend a rule, or go out on a limb or get something wrong. But the important thing is that they usually do this in aid of getting truth to the public. What has defined the media breakdown that started in 2016 was the press’ abandonment of standards in aid of peddling a narrative — rather than reality. This abandonment has had terrible consequences for the industry and for the country. A Monmouth University poll in early 2018 found that a whopping 77 percent of Americans believe traditional TV and newspaper outlets report “fake news.” And 42 percent of respondents said they believed outlets did this specifically to promote a political agenda. These kinds of numbers are alarming for civil society. The more Americans are turned off from traditional news, the more they turn to dubious sources and read and listen only to things with which they agree. For those worried about our increasingly polarized society, the media is feeding that divide.

Now is the winter of our discontent made glorious summer by this son of New York said...

"Well, our primary interest right now is making sure that that person is protected ... given that we already have the call records we don't need the whistleblower, who wasn't on the call.” - Schiff

LOL! They don’t want the guy shredded on cross, is my guess.

Michael K said...

Correct or not Republicans believed the 'family values' platform was a winner for them while President Clinton was banging everyone he could. I

I watched Sam Donaldson say on TV that he expected Clinton to resign within a week of the Monica story breaking.

Clinton said "Well, we'll just have to win." Trump has as yet not asked a secretary of the cabinet to lie for him.

Dear corrupt left, go F yourselves said...

“The press has embraced its bias, joined the Resistance and declared its allegiance to one side of a partisan war. . . . This media war is extraordinary, overt and increasingly damaging to the country.”

Now is the winter of our discontent made glorious summer by this son of New York said...

When Schiff doesn’t want the “whistleblower” to testify, it just indicates how strong Trump’s position is now. I was actually upset at the 51% poll, but I tuned out the news and when Rush came on, he explained that they almost doubled the usual percentage of Democrats in that poll, and it was like “it figures.” I couldn’t believe that I had believed the MSM again!

This broadcasting of what Democrats call “disciplined messaging” (other people call it ‘Big Lie’) which doesn’t allow for answering even the most obvious questions is burning their credibility in a massive bonfire.

How many times are they going to say that Trump asked them to dig dirt on Biden “as a favor” when the transcript shows that he asked them to look into 2016 interference out of Ukraine.

*Clearly* Democrats know what a cesspool the Ukraine is of corrupt Democrat politics, Soros, Clinton, Biden, Kerry, Romney, it’s a regular rogues gallery and they need to deflect any inspection into that at all costs. That’s the only thing that explains their desperate attacks.

Now is the winter of our discontent made glorious summer by this son of New York said...

Twitter is funny.

A guy on Twitter wonders when Trump supporters are finally going to cave to their obviously guilty consciences and stop supporting him and I linked to a NYT story proving election interference out of Ukraine on behalf of Hillary and I got blocked. But so what? It just proves that they are not serious. A serious person would have addressed the issue that the New York Times printed Ukrainian dirt.

Nichevo said...

I've never really understood why Clinton felt he had to lie about it, even to Congress. 'Hell ya I boinked her!' would have put an end to it.

He wanted to cheat/defraud Paula Jones, after sexually assaulting/harassing her. Just a damned cheating grifter as we always knew. Should've just settled. Just paid her off and gotten an NDA. But nooooooooo...

Narayanan said...

Republican Senators game plan: as long as we don't hang together, we can escape hanging separately.

Democratic Senators game plan: all pull together many necks in that noose.

Clyde said...

sunsong said...
may goodness and truth prevail here. may it be so!


Of course, your opinion on who is the Father of Lies in this particular contretemps is no doubt different from mine. Many of those to claim to seek "justice" would be better off seeking "mercy." Especially once the real "truth" comes out.

Mark said...

I've never really understood why Clinton felt he had to lie about it, even to Congress. 'Hell ya I boinked her!' would have put an end to it.

Because if he had, then that would have been used as evidence against him that would likely cause him to lose the Paula Jones lawsuit where he was accused of #MeToo, Harvey Weinstein style sexual harassment.

Only by obstructing justice in the Jones case, violating her civil rights, and using the power of government to do so, could Clinton have gotten out of being adjudicated a sexual predator.

Bruce Hayden said...

My vote for the first guests to a necktie party would be the Lawfare Group. Comey had ties to them. I think that it was likely that they were involved in the switching back and forth between counterintelligence and criminal investigations that was instrumental to the effectiveness of the Crossfire Hurricane investigation of the Trump/Russian Collusion hoax. FISA was updated by the PATRIOT Act to allow crimes discovered using counterintelligence tools to be prosecuted. Of course, the PATROT Act drafters had no idea that the crime that they would use was the over 18th Century old Logan Act, with the last (of two) failed prosecutions over two centuries ago. Then, using the Logan Act, a special counsel investigation was launched, but was kept fed with counterintelligence information by running supervision of the FBI agents by the FBI’s Counterintelligence Division (where Peter Strzok had been #2). It very much appears that the entire time that the Mueller investigation was ongoing, they were using National Security tools, such as FISA and National Security letters, to investigate Trump and his associates for criminal acts - despite special counsel regulations preventing just that, and a complete obliteration of 4th and 5th Amdt protections. Why go into court and convince a judge to issue a warrant based on probable cause, when you can just issue National Security Letters, or perform FISA 702 searches (Adm Rogers shut down “about” queries, but they were able to almost the same with “to” and “from” queries)? AG Sessions should have shut that down, but foolishly recused himself. It will ultimately be interesting to see why DAG Rosenstein, as acting AG, allowed that.

Then the Lawfare Group (Weiss) working with their friends and former colleagues now Mueller Prosecutors (esp Weissman) reinterpreted an Obstruction of Justice statute to essentially change it from a specific intent crime to a general intent crime. Thus, for example, they considered the firing of Comey Obstruction because it interfered with a criminal investigation (the bogus Crossfire Hurricane Russian Collusion investigation) and Trump intentionally firing him (the general intent). Under DOJ OLC interpretations, the crime would have required bad intent (Specific Intent), and is countered by a valid reason for the action (such as lying to the President). This reinterpretation violated DOJ rules, and shouldn’t have been tolerated, since the SC was bound by DOJ rules and regulations. It was by DAG Rosenstein (but not by AG Barr). This reinterpretation, using general, instead of specific, intent, was successful in keeping the Mueller investigation from being shut down, and protected the Deep State participants in the SpyGate scandal from having to testify before Congress about anything to do with their involvement in investigating the Russian Collusion hoax (including their Title I FISA abuse).

Bruce Hayden said...

Continuing

After the Mueller investigation was finally shut down after AG Barr was confirmed, taking over from DAG Rosenstein, and forcing them to conform to DOJ rules and regulations, the action shifted to House committees. Both Shifty Schiff and Wadler promptly hired Lawfare Group attorneys for their committee staffs. I think that we first saw Lawfare involvement in the rewriting of House committee rules that prevent the minority party from calling witnesses, etc. Next, in shifting back and forth between Oversight (A1 S1) and Impeachment (A1 S2). Congress mostly doesn’t have Oversight authority over the White House or President Trump - his Article II Powers trump their Article I Powers for himself and the White House - except in the case of impeachment (thanks to Nixon). Their solution, almost assuredly developed by Lawfare, was to combine a fake impeachment investigation with oversight. And they have gotten away so far, because there is no caselaw (yet) that says that a Speaker cannot unilaterally declare an impeachment investigation all on her own. Sure, the three previous impeachment inquiries were initiated by a vote of the House, and provided the minority and the President Due Process Rights. But no court case has yet said that the Speaker couldn’t do it on her own, without a House vote, or that they needed to provide Due Process to the minority and the President.

Finally, the IG laws and rules were subverted by Shifty Schiff. Someone (likely from Lawfare) noticed that while the ICIG complaint form (then) required that only first hand knowledge could be utilized to make a complaint, the actual law only required that the knowledge be reliable. So someone, likely on Schiff’s staff, or associated with Lawfare, brought this up with the IC OIG, and they changed the form to allow second hand knowledge. Meanwhile, of course, it is likely that Schiff’s staff essentially drafted the whistleblower complaint that was ultimately submitted to the ICIG. (This all being illegal, since whistleblowers can only go to Congress with their complaints after it being classified as “Urgent”). Of course, the IVIG shouldn’t legally have declared it “Urgent”, nor forward it to Schiff’s HSCI, since it didn’t have jurisdiction (the phone call involved foreign relations, not Intelligence).

The thing that ties this whole string together is extremely clever lawyering, untethered to the actual laws and regulations being twisted. For example, the Obstruction statute reinterpretation put parts of the statute together, out of context, that didn’t belong together, utilizing centuries old rules of interpretation. I think that the cleverness of this abuse of the laws that is the hallmark of the Lawfare Group.

Now is the winter of our discontent made glorious summer by this son of New York said...

" Rep. Adam Schiff Sunday conceded he should have “been much more clear” in explaining the whistleblower’s contact with his House Intelligence Committee.”

That’s a pretty funny way to say “I’m sorry I lied."

Largo said...

Reading the comments at Politico. So much argumentum as assertion.

Narayanan said...

@Blogger Bruce Hayden

Thanks for opening statement.

Is it then joust between Lawfare Group. Vs ?Federalist Society?
Or just Trump's lawyers

How many Republicans can spell Federalist Society? Which I understand is all about 10A.

Bruce Hayden said...

Every lawyer should be appalled by the Lawfare way of completely ignoring the intent of a law, but instead spinning it and massaging it in order to get the desired result. But, of course, many aren’t, and I think the biggest reason is that it became political. Obama seems to have adopted his putative father’s radical views of liberation and anti colonial theology, along with a strong strain of communist nihilism. Not really having been raised as an American, he was perfectly happy to destroy our Rule of Law in order to bring forth his earthly utopia. We saw this with his subversion of our immigration policy, in order to elect a permanent ruling Dem majority through forced demographic change. But it too was effectuated by Lawfare reinterpretation and intentional misinterpretation of our laws. I don’t think that we would have seen the rapid rise of Lawfare intentional destruction of our society from within, if Clinton had beaten McCain in 2008, and not Obama. I think that the Clintons were much more product of our society. Their goal seems not to have been to destroy our American society, but rather just to skim off enough graft to become filthy rich. Ditto for Biden. Instead, I think it is uniquely a legacy of Obama’s lack of connection to the roots of our Republic, combined with what almost seems hate for it. This shouldn’t be surprising though, because of his love and emulation of a father he never knew, and his early and continuing close relationship with a couple of the most notorious domestic terrorists from our past (Bill Ayers and his wife). You can view Obama and his Administration as the Weather Underground having all gone on to elite law schools to learn how to destroy this country with its legal system, instead of with bombs.

As I see it, this revolution in the law went slowly Obama’s first term of office. Possibly it was recognizing that there might not be a second Obama term if they were discovered too quickly. Partially, it might have taken awhile to figure out how to subvert our legal system. Partially it may have been Holder, instead of Lynch as AG. He was radical enough, but may have managed his department more aggressively. The center of this movement in the DOJ seems to have been DAG Sally Yates. Her fingerprints are visible in place after place in changes made during Obama’s second term. Most prominent though was her gutting of our National Security laws (e.g. FISA), turning tools that were designed to protect us in the War on Terror into tools that could be utilized by a corrupt Administration like Obama’s to spy on and destroy Political opponents. She did it by tweaking things here and there. Nothing radical enough that it couldn’t pass very superficial judicial review. She repeatedly got small tweaks to FISA rules through the FISC presumably because the judges assumed good faith. Very misplaced trust on their part.

The other part of this is that we started hearing in maybe 2010, with Obama term limited, that they were embedding militants and activists in the DOJ. They would typically come in as political appointees, under the level requiring Senate confirmation, and then switch over to career status, their switch over approved by other Obama political appointees. As political appointees, they could expect to be fired the next time the Republicans won the Presidency. But embedded now as top level career employees, they could only be removed for cause. Slick and effective (Lawfare again?). And, of course, the Obama Administration political appointees recruited and aggressively promoted fellow travelers during their time in office. In any case, that is a good part of how they could have recruited Mueller’s team of rapidly partisan unscrupulous political hacks as its prosecutors. The senior members, like Weissman, weren’t originally hired by Obama people, but were protected from well deserved discipline and then promoted.

Bruce Hayden said...

“Is it then joust between Lawfare Group. Vs ?Federalist Society?
Or just Trump's lawyers”

I think both.

I am glad though that you pointed this out. Obama seems to also have tried to recast the Judiciary through the appointment of rabidly leftist judges. And the result has been, time and time again, that his judges have ignored clear law, and issued nation wide injunctions (very recent, and I think another gift from the Lawfare Group), in order to prevent Trump from enacting his agenda and protecting Obama’s legacy. Nowhere, of course, more aggressively than in immigration, where the Dems expect to create their permanent ruling majority by flooding our country with ignorant 3rd world peasants. And the Federakist Society has been at the center of that fight, trying to roll back the eight years of Judiciary Branch rot bequeathed us by Obama.

Stephen said...

Professor Althouse,

I’m not a con law prof—perhaps that’s why I’m not getting your point. It makes sense to me that the constitutional design takes it as a given that constitutional actors will be self interested, and that coupling a place with self interest could be an important part of a system of checks and balances.

But to me it does not follow from this point about linking self interest with institutional design that using one’s official powers solely in ones own interest when there is no good faith belief that the national interest is at stake is part of the constitutional design or unimpeachable. What am I missing?

I realize that most commentators here believe that Trump was acting in good faith. In my view, that’s a non frivolous contention that should be fully explored. But it cannot, on this record, be assumed. Do you disagree?