That's Aubrey Beardsley's illustration Lucian's 2nd-century satire "True History," which I'm reading about in the Wikipedia article "History of Science Fiction."
Typical science fiction themes and topoi in True History include: travel to outer space, encounter with alien life-forms (including the experience of a first encounter event), interplanetary warfare and planetary imperialism, motif of giganticism, creatures as products of human technology, worlds working by a set of alternative physical laws, and an explicit desire of the protagonist for exploration and adventure. In witnessing one interplanetary battle between the People of the Moon and the People of the Sun as the fight for the right to colonize the Morning Star, Lucian describes giant space spiders who were "appointed to spin a web in the air between the Moon and the Morning Star, which was done in an instant, and made a plain campaign upon which the foot forces were planted..." L. Sprague de Camp and a number of other authors argue this to be one of the earliest if not the earliest example of science fiction or proto-science fiction. However, since the text was intended to be explicitly satirical and hyperbolic, other critics are ambivalent about its rightful place as a science fiction precursor.... Lucian translator Bryan Reardon is more explicit, describing the work as "an account of a fantastic journey - to the moon, the underworld, the belly of a whale, and so forth. It is not really science fiction, although it has sometimes been called that; there is no 'science' in it."There are many other precursors to science fiction at the linked article, which I am reading this morning after blogging about "War with the Newts." I only singled out Lucian's "True History" because I like Aubrey Beardsley (who drew his pictures in the late 19th century).
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157 comments:
"In the beginning........"
The rocket ships in Flash Gordon, as shown on TV in the 50s, were neat. Buzzing and smoke and flying around like airplanes.
Tom Corbett space cadet suffered from, during spacewalks, the studio cables being visible against the darkened floor.
And what's-its-title had a mixed nude shower scene.
Other than that, sci fi is a bore.
Question, Professor Althouse?
Have you ever read any Heinlein?
If not, maybe you should; even if you didn't like it, it'd give you some more insights into your readership here (which seems to have a high amount of Heinlein fans).
If you do, try one of his shorts; they're fast and fun
(i'd recommend "and he built a crooked house" to start with. It's in the book " The Unpleasant Profession of Jonathan Hoag"
"Science" surely has to be taken in the context of the society that is producing the fiction.
There must be some rational system of the world, as understood by the author, that provides the context for the fictional wonders described in the work. Such a system might be considered magic or superstition by modern standards. However, as long as it is based on an appeal to a rational assumption of natural order, rather than on an appeal to the whims of the gods (etc.), then it's probably "science" in the relevant sense.
Anyway, within this system of natural order, the wonders occur. Perhaps they are wondrous extensions of the ordered world. Perhaps they are indistinguishable-from-magic intrusions on the ordered world. Many good science fiction stories are partly about connecting the magical wonders back to the ordered system. Others leave that question open, as a mystery for the reader to resolve for himself after the story concludes.
The best SF stories, in my view, are ones which introduce a wonder against an ordered backdrop, and then tell a story about how human society reacts and is transformed by that wonder, according to the ordered system of the world in which they live. For example, the movie Surrogates explores what might to society if near-perfect human simulacra could be tele-operated by the people they represent.
It seems like Lucian's tale, satire or not, probably qualifies. It is presented as an extension of the natural order, into phenomena that are fantastical but still part of that ordered system. If the story also includes scenes of humans reacting to these wonders, then it pretty much ticks all the SF boxes for me (mutatis mutandi).
Space arachnids weaving battlefields between the stars would fit right into an episode of Star Trek, or a passage from Dan Simmons' [i]Hyperion[/i].
Time travel movies can be good, depending on the ability of the script writer.
Safety Not Guaranteed (2012) is the most self-consistent one I've seen, though a sequel would have difficulty.
Edge of Tomorrow (2014) is good but is sometimes careless in consistent motivating.
Time travel as a way to find out what to say to a woman is universal.
Shelly's novel FRANKENSTEIN is often named possibly the first science fiction novel. I read it several years ago (on my iPhone). It was quite good, and far different than the modern presentations of the story. It is an epistolary novel, and, in the end, quite tragic, the story of a sentient being abandoned by its creator, who was horrified at what he had wrought.
I never got into it but did have one favorite when I was a kid. It was called "Needle" and it still good even though very dated.
I notice a hard cover copy is $200. There is a Kindle version, too.
"Other than that, sci fi is a bore."
You haven't read any good science fiction.
"Have you ever read any Heinlein?"
Yes. Long ago. "Stranger in a Strange Land." Everyone read that.
I read a lot of science fiction when I was in college... mainly because I was pushed to. I didn't like it that much and have not continued with that kind of reading. Other than that I've set out to read "War with the Newts." And I dragged myself through some feminist science fiction circa 1990. What a chore!!
Remember, I'm a reader who looks for great sentences.
I've always been partial to Heinlein and P.K. Dick. The Man In The High Castle is my all-time favorite sci-fi novel.
What is and is not science fiction is serious business in some parts. When a prestigious science fiction award - I forget which and I have had no luck the story online - decided to open up a category for movies and television, there was a very vocal minority that decided that THIS! WILL! NOT! STAND! They managed to nominate a porno movie for the category as a protest. (It didn't win.)
These days, what garners science fiction awards is almost entirely based on left-wing politics and causes. There is stuff that barely arises above fan fiction and has arguably nothing to do with science fiction at all that gets awards because it has transgender dinosaur sex and was written by a non-binary Native American atheist. Good science fiction written by anyone to the right of Mao need not apply.
and it turns out! that the powers that be have screen printed the original magazine version of and he built a crooked house
My favorite sentences of all time
"Never worry about my driving, it's a matter of power and control; just my meat -- I've never had a serious accident"
"You won't have but one"
Surprisingly, Astounding credited Heinlein for the story, i'd always assumed that it was one of the ones that Heinlein used an alias on.
Talk to you all later, i've got some reading to do!
I see Icarus and such held out as early science-fiction, but to me, that's simply fantasy. From my POV, science-fiction relies on science, at least in some way. Bacon formalized the scientific method, but was, of course, predated and heavily drew from people like Copernicus and Galileo. As such, I'm usually at a 14th century onward. Somnium, by Kepler, is regarded in hardcore sci-fi fandom as one of the first true examples. Shelley's Frankenstein is usually regarded as the first true science-fiction story, but honestly, while I see their point, the advocates for that are usually pushing an agenda.
That being said, if you study the early philosophers and their grappling with how the natural world worked, you might be as surprised as I was to find out just how well they did with the very limited facts and, frankly, measuring equipment, they had available to them. In such a vacuum of science, as we think about it, Icarus is almost cyberpunk :)
Yes! Beardsley's illustrations are amazing.
"I've always been partial to Heinlein and P.K. Dick. The Man In The High Castle is my all-time favorite sci-fi novel."
I've been a reader of PKD since 1975. I've read all of his novels (several more than once), and I'm working my way through his complete short stories. I have an entire bookshelf filled with just his books, (and the multiple editions of many of his books that I have acquired).
As great as his best science fiction novels are, (and some are weak), I'm coming to think his non-science fiction novels, unpublished during his life, (except for CONFESSIONS OF A CRAP ARTIST) are his best work (a distinctly minority, opinion, though Samuel R. Delaney has said Dick's non-SF work was worth more than all of his SF, which Delaney finds "pedestrian"). They are surprisingly gritty and often emotionally brutal.
I never cared for Aubrey Beardsley's work. It is too decorative for my taste.
You haven't read any good science fiction.
Ditto this and note the date. I'm fervently agreeing with Cook on something.
If you want something epic from a modern master of the genre, I suggest Ilium/Olympos by Dan Simmons or Pandora's Star/Judas Unchained by Peter F Hamilton. Dense tomes with tons going on and a large cast of interesting characters.
Currently reading Ted Chiang's most recent short stories. Fascinating stuff. He occasionally flashes a virtuoso knowledge of computer science or physics, but most of his stories deal with philosophical problems -- free will and time travel, or the metacognition of invented life forms.
Lucian's 2nd-century satire
Hmm, the Christian old testament is older, and maybe even wackier.
The first science fiction was some hairy guy in a cave pointing at the moon and making up some bullshit to impress a hairy woman. It worked, and here we are today. Incidentally, I doubt any good sentences were used.
Remember, I'm a reader who looks for great sentences.
Ann, if you want wonderfully-crafted sentences that never cross the line into "purple" prose, I highly suggest picking up something from the late, great I.M. Banks. Not only do I believe you would find his created universe of The Culture fascinating, the man's way with a sentence is not to be missed. He's a truly great writer in every facet of the craft.
Read Culture novels (not a series, but all set in the same universe) if for no other reason than the ship names, which the ships pick themselves :)
If you decide to dip a toe in, I suggest Consider Phlebas as a starting point, though it really doesn't matter which one you pick. Use Of Weapons is also highly interesting just from a structural point of view.
At one point it was science fiction to write about a character who lived into their 50's.
Confessions of a Crap Artist is brilliant. I really have to get around to reading the other non-SF novels. I'm slowly, off and on, working my way through The Exegesis. I like it, but it's not a page turner. Best Amazon Review Quote Ever (for The Exegesis) : "If you don't already know what this is, DON'T buy it."
FIreball XL5
Hans Christian Andersen had some interesting thoughts on aerial warfare.
I understand that that the ancient Sanskrit epics are full of scifi-y elements.
Narr
BTW, "The Death of Stalin" is a great comedy. Only brutal farce could do justice to that regime and the skullfucking shitweasels that ran it. (Talk about scifi--Marxism/Leninism as
a Futurist project?; some early Fascists were great Futurists too.)
One of the cool things about Fireball XL5 was that it was festooned with French ticklers.
Scifi movies are better than scifi novels......A lot of scifi novels aren't really considered to be scifi. 1984 is not usually considered to be scifi......A Connecticut Yankee is pretty good. I think the ending in some ways presages WWI.
At one point it was science fiction to write about a character who lived into their 50's.
"Gurven and Kaplan found that the modal (most common) age of death for hunter-gatherers who survived past 15 was 72. Taking out the infant mortality rate, Stephen Guyenet found that the average lifespan of one Inuit group was 43.5, with 25% of the population living past 60."
Scifi movies are better than scifi novels......A lot of scifi novels aren't really considered to be scifi.
First, it's your right as an American citizen to be completely wrong, so more power to you :) Second, very few "sci-fi" movies are actually sci-fi. Star Wars is not sci-fi. Star Wars is, if anything, space opera or fantasy dressed up with spaceships and blasters. It's quibbling, but that's the kind of reaction you're going to get if you tell a die-hard sci-fi fan (who is definitely a sci-fi reader) that the movies are better.
The only sci-fi movie I can think of that was better than it's novel source material would be Cloud Atlas and that's because the novel was a hot mess, barely a novel.
Scifi movies are better than scifi novels....
I don't think that holds true for the work of Isaac Asimov.
I didn't discover his work until my late 30's - terrific imagination with an incredible ability to weave different novels together.
Yes it's a hot mess, sometimes you have to edit,
"Confessions of a Crap Artist is brilliant. I really have to get around to reading the other non-SF novels. I'm slowly, off and on, working my way through The Exegesis. I like it, but it's not a page turner. Best Amazon Review Quote Ever (for The Exegesis) : 'If you don't already know what this is, DON'T buy it.'"
I bought The Exegesis, but I have never had any intention of reading it, (I'm just a PKD completist.) I didn't find the religious-philosophical material in VALIS particularly interesting, so I certainly don't want to read a thousand pages more of it, unstructured and never intended for publication. I far preferred RADIO FREE ALBEMUTH, the first version of VALIS, to VALIS itself, Dick's "improved" version of the novel, based on suggestions from his agent, (who only expected changes to the first manuscript, not a whole new novel). RFA contained some of the same material, but presented at much less length and in a manner I found more digestible.
I was furious at Jonathan Lethem (editor of The Library of America's three-volume omnibus collections of Dick's more significant novels) for not including RFA in the third volume, which contained the so-called "Valis Trilogy." Lethem has said he considers RFA inferior, but that's a matter of taste. Even if he felt that way, it was an opportunity to publish two novels by one author based on the same material, each entirely different from the other. Lethem should have put aside his personal opinion and provided readers unfamiliar with the works to see how a great writer can so radically reimagine the same material.
"Scifi movies are better than scifi novels...."
Nope!
I don't think that holds true for the work of Isaac Asimov.
I don't think it holds true for any of the great authors of any genre. Few and far between are the movies that are better than the source material.
If you want a one book distillation of why people got in SF, that would be Poul Anderson's Tau Zero.
If you want great sentences, arch dialogue and fantastic meals, you can't beat Jack Vance starting possibly with his breakout from journeyman status Tales Of The Dying Earth (this edition contains more than just that) or something from his prime like "The Last Castle" or Trullion: Alastor 2262 (chosen at semi random -- everything he wrote in that period was good).
Back in the days of steam television, Captain Video's space ship set relied on repurposed office furniture and lots of cardboard.
If you wish almost poetic prose in Science Fiction, Zelazny is a good source. Lord of Light addresses may themes common to the genre and does so with beautiful prose. Later Zelazny is not a good.
I find Ann’s comments about her looking for well turned sentences interesting, in view of our conversation here a week or two ago. I have little patience for that sort of thing, and, instead read very quickly, probably missing much of the nuance that she loves. But then, I love plot over almost anything. One of us doesn’t see the forest for the trees, and the other doesn't see the trees for the forest.
I started seriously reading SF in middle school, and continue to read it to this date, over a half century later. Used to read at least a book a week, usually two, when I was traveling a lot. This last winter, I added 39 linear feet to my paperback library, which is now almost 208 linear feet (13 rows x 16’/row). Surprising the number of duplicates I found, after I finally was able to integrate and sort the whole collection. When I am back in PHX, where the collection takes up one wall of my garage, I have been enjoying rereading books that I haven’t read in decades.
Never been a huge Science Fiction buff. Read some Asimov in junior high and was a big fan of Vonnegut's sci fi books in high school.
For me the best sci fi read was Philip K Dick's, "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?", later filmed as Blade Runner. I read it in one sitting as a break from studying for the bar exam. I had been studying so hard that I identified with the protagonist. Had to to think long and hard to determine if were a human or an android.
"1984 is not usually considered to be scifi...."
An opinion held primarily by critics of "literary" fiction, who are unwilling or unable to consider that a book as accomplished as 1984 could be actually be that "trashy" sci-fi. Of course, they are simply guilty of assuming the worst of a genre's works to be exemplary of all works within the genre. By that standard, Harlequin Romances and books of that ilk are representative of all (non-sf) novels.
But, 1984's premise is not particularly based on technology or science, so it can be considered a dystopian fable, and not, strictly speaking, SF. But, SF covers an array of types of stories; 1984 falls within the field.
"But then, I love plot over almost anything."
Plot is the least important part of any good book. It is the only important part of a bad book.
I'm a huge Heinlein fan (named my cat after one of the critters in his books. And nope, it ain't "Pixel") but am not a fan of "Stranger". His writings helped teach me a lot about many different subjects - from politics to love to mnemonic tricks - and I found practically everything he wrote to be fascinating and eye-opening, but SIASL kinda bored me.
It's a shame that he has had only one or two good movies made from his books. From what I hear, Tom Cruise is to blame for that.
Ann: Henry @12:21 has a point. I am not a SF reader, but received, a few days ago, Chiang's compilation of short stories as a gift from one who knows I do not read SF. A different kind of SF that you might enjoy. I did.
Star Wars is not sci-fi.
We just watched a bunch of the old Star Treks; most of them were more like Grimm's fairly tales or new-agey nonsense than sciencey.
1.1 shapeshifting vampire alien who drinks salt instead of blood.
1.2 psychokinesis
1.3 psychokinesis and telepathy
1.4 eh ?
1.5 Kirk gets an evil twin.
1.6 Hate "Mudd", so didn't watch.
1.7 exact duplicate people/androids
1.8 exact duplicate of Earth
1.9 "neural neutralizer" - eh ?
1.A Opie's brother plays a baby in a spaceship.
1.B psychokinesis and telepathy
1.C ? ...etc..
It was remarkable, though, how so many planets had evolved tumbleweeds, and had the same type of paper-mache rocks.
And it was handy that those planets had breathable air and were populated by humans or creatures who looked like humans, and who spoke English.
By the way, I also agree with Robert Cook here. Put that on the list of a rare event.
It was remarkable, though, how so many planets had evolved tumbleweeds, and had the same type of paper-mache rocks.
And it was handy that those planets had breathable air and were populated by humans or creatures who looked like humans, and who spoke English.
I'm no Trekkie (more like a trekkie-lite), but credit where credit is due. They accomplished a shit-ton with a paltry budget and little studio support, not to mention the knock-on effects they had on kids that would grow up to become actual scientists because of their early exposure to Star Trek. How many series from those same three years, with much higher-paid talent, marketing, and better sets, spawned a massive pseudo-religion of time-wasters? :)
(eaglebeak)
Aubrey Beardsley had a definite ick factor, certainly in his eyebrow-raising illustrations to Lysistrata. Along with Oscar Wilde, he helped put the Naughty in the "Naughty Nineties."
Oh drat. Now I have to read Radio Free Albemuth again, and it absolutely should have been in the Library of America book. I mean, that's the whole point of those volumes. I remember it being pretty good. Of course, I actually liked The Divine Invasion, which is definitely a minority view.
Lethem's early novels, are pretty good PKD tributes; particularly Girl in Landscape.
Star Wars is not sci-fi.
We just watched a bunch of the old Star Treks; most of them were more like Grimm's fairly tales or new-agey nonsense than sciencey.
You are describing "Bat Durston" from a famous back cover house ad in H. L. Gold's Galaxy Magazine (The parallel text read as side by side columns there, which I can't reproduce properly):
==
Jets blasting, Bat Durston came screeching down through the atmosphere of Bbllzznaj, a tiny planet seven billion light years from Sol. He cut out his super-hyper-drive for the landing . . . and at that point, a tall, lean spaceman stepped out of the tail assembly, proton gun-blaster in a space-tanned hand.
"Get back from those controls, Bat Durston," the tall stranger lipped thinly. "You don't know it, but this is your last space trip."
Hoofs drumming, Bat Durston came galloping down through the narrow pass at Eagle Gulch, a tiny gold colony 400 miles north of Tombstone. He spurred hard for a low overhang of rim-rock . . . and at that point a tall, lean wrangler stepped out from behind a high boulder, six-shooter in a sun-tanned hand.
"Rear back and dismount, Bat Durston," the tall stranger lipped thinly. "You don't know it, but this is your last saddle-jaunt through these here parts."
Sound alike? They should—one is merely a western transplanted to some alien and impossible planet. If this is your idea of science fiction, you're welcome to it! YOU'LL NEVER FIND IT IN GALAXY!
==
The thing is, I disagree with Gold. Bat Durston is SF. It may not be to your taste; it may not explore ideas or the consequences of technology. That doesn't make it not-SF (except perhaps to Galaxy. "Bat Durston" stories can be good fun.
Oh, I think THE DIVINE INVASION is terrific! One of his best.
flash Gordon and star wars, are space opera, Heinlein, Asimov and clark, are certainly hard sci fi, some like harry Harrison's stainless steel rat, are more of the former mixed with satire, wells and verne, are a little more in the other category,
I have very little patience for Philip K. Dick. My attitude was best summed up by cartoonist and SF author Scott Meyers in his old email list:
==
There's a show I've been enjoying quite a bit called Houdini & Doyle. It's based on one of the best ideas for a show I've ever heard.
Sir Arthur Conan Doyle was a trained doctor and the creator of the ultimate pre-Spock paragon of logic and reason: Sherlock Holmes. Doyle was also a believer in the occult.
Harry Houdini was a world famous master magician and a skeptic, who spent a great deal of time and effort exposing fraudulent psychics.
These two men were good friends.
All of what I've just written is absolutely true and historically documented. The show Houdini & Doyle has them running around turn-of-the-century London solving X-Files style mysteries with the help of the city's first-ever female constable and the guy who played Lord Percy/Captain Darling on Blackadder. The episodes tend to start with some supernatural event which Doyle wants to investigate, and ends with Houdini providing a rational explanation. It's a great formula, well executed.
I think it goes without saying that I want in on this. Here's my pitch.
Title:
Henning and Dick
Concept:
Master magician Doug Henning and his good friend, science fiction author Phillip K. Dick (upon whose works Blade Runner and Total Recall were based) work together to solve mysteries in the San Fernando valley in the 1970s.
Stories:
Episode 1: Dick discovers another man who looks just like him, sounds just like him, and claims to be named Phillip K. Dick. This disturbs Dick to his core, causing him to question where this replica of himself has come from, or if he is the replica, and has been all along.
Henning reveals that it was just a mirror.
You haven't read any good science fiction.
Fred Hoyle, in something probably called the black cloud or something, had a nice line where a planetary problem was attacked by assembling world experts in London. I thought, even in the 50s or so, that was a little out of date.
I heard this here from a commenter first, but Star Wars is a blatant ripoff of Dune, except it’s "Luke, you are my Uncle” which, and read them one after the other if you doubt me, was a blatant ripoff of The Sabres of Paradise, a history book, where their are two empires, the Persians and the Russians.
Teh Sabres of Pardise
Right down to the chapter headings and lines about the artfulness of killiing with a sword.
So Star Wars maybe should be called “The Light Sabres of Paradise."
During the Caucasian Wars of Independence, the warring mountain tribes of Daghestan and Chechnya united under the charismatic leadership of Imam Shamyl...
The Rebel Alliance.
There is no Platonic essence of "science fiction".
Define it one way and the story is SF. Define it another way and the story isn't.
But I am wondering how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
It's a bit reductive to say the star Wars is a nothing but a Dune ripoff. Star Wars has loads of influences, Dune among them, but also old Flash Gordan Serials, Kurosawa's movie The Hidden Fortress, E. E. Smith's Lensman series, Isaac Asimov's Foundation series, and of course the work of Joseph Campbell (The Hero with a Thousand Faces), Arthurian mythology, even Tolkien's Lord of the Rings.
Ahem. I might be able to offer some insight. Though the vast majority of my book collection is from the 20th century. Though I do have firsts of The King in Yellow and Erewhon.
I love Heinlein, but hate Stranger.... Frankly, I enjoy his juveniles best. Star Trek's "The Trouble with Tribles" was stolen from Heinlein's The Rolling Stones. Atwood lifted, much of it intact, If This Goes On— and retitled it A Handmaid's Tale.
Zelazny had wonderfully lyrical prose. His short story, A Rose for Ecclesiastes is a favorite. I agree with Unknown about Lord of Light.
Cyrano Dr Bergerac wrote A Trip to the Moon way back when. It didn't engage me. Might have been the translation.
Alfred Bester's The Stars My Destination is the quintessential science fiction novel, I think.
I didn't know that about 'tribbles' but the realization of 'if this goes on' did occur to me recently,
The weirdness of The King in Yellow certainly influence Lovecraft.
Ironically, since it searialized in Galaxy, The Stars My Destination is a Bat Durston: An SF re-write of The Count of Monte Crisco.
Not that I give a rip: Still a great book, and great SF.
How can a writer convey an unknown place filled with not yet invented powers and machinery? He has to rely on our collective subconscious or a picture, I.e., a cartoon or a film set.
Anyway, the best one is still Forbidden Planet.
In Forbidden Planet we learn that all of the space monsters are just creatures of our ID. And Roses ODonnell.
"Anyway, the best one is still Forbidden Planet."
Ann Francis stars in Forbidden Planet
Oh-oh at the late night, double feature, picture show.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Zbn5b369wk
and they say that one is based on the tempest.
Some of the old dr. who series, that ended in 86, which largely had fantasy or historical elements, were entertaining as well,
The old Dr. Who had all these threadbare sets (when they weren't historical soundstages) and cheesy special effects -- and another great British character actor around every corner..
one of the favorites, was brigadier Lethbridge stewart, the late Nicholas Courtney, I think tom baker is the only alive from that era, they novelized one written by adams, 'city of death' set in paris of the 70s with julian glover, as the jabberwocky, I mean jaggaroth,
The Dr. Who reboot has a marvelous episode "The Doctor's Wife," written by Neil Gaiman. I had great hopes for the new female Doctor, but I don't find the stories well written.
For some reason I'm very fond of the early novels of A. E. van Vogt, e.g., The World of Null-A and The Weapon Shops of Isher, but I must concede that they contain some of the most atrocious sentences known to man. I have to turn that part of my brain off when I read them.
SF is a hard genre to read if you like good sentences. I consider Dune pretty bad. All those thoughts-as-italics. I think William Gibson has some pretty good sentences. Memorable metaphors, at least, like that famous opening line to Neuromancer. I always devour Philip K. Dick novels, even the bad ones, but I can't say that the style stands out to me in any way. Something about his characters & their predicaments.
I definitely consider The Stars My Destination one of the high points of the art form. For me, J. G. Ballard's The Drowned World is up there too. But that's just SF Conrad. A lot of SF is just the SF version of something "literary." Not that that's a bad thing, necessarily.
I've been trying to think who, in SF, I would recommend for "good sentences". I see others have settled on Zelazny, who was about as good as it gets for a few years there.
- Ray Bradbury was the great pioneer of self consciously "literary" science fiction. He may be a bit overcooked for some tastes, particularly if you don't feel like making historical allowances for the youth of the art form.
- "A Rose for Ecclesiastes" and "The Doors of His Face, The Lamps of His Mouth" are quite the one-two punch. Zelazny saw them as something of a farewell to the Golden Age when you could, at least with some plausible deniability, still imagine adventure stories on other planets in this Solar System.
- The Fifth Head of Cerberus, Gene Wolfe's Proust tribute, is very well written.
- Radiance (or anything, really) by Catherynne Valente, is very well written and pretty head spinning conceptually, as well.
Not that the fruit was unripe, but they were.
Van Vogt was an idea man. A crazy idea man. He would set his alarm clock, then try to dream the solution to the corner he had written himself into and when it rang, write down the next scene. He got some great stuff that way, but yeah, literary sentences he did not have.
Gene Wolfe was too oblique for me. I read "Cerebus" and the first of the torturer books and had no idea what had just happened.
Oh yes, I forgot to mention Ballard. He's good. I'd say start with the stories in Vermilion Sands but The Drowned World is also a good place to start.
BTW, there is a site which has almost everything Van Vogt wrote, legally or not I don't know. (I suspect not, but it's in France, so it's unlikely to care much):
Here's my all time favorite VV story The Monster.
And here's an overview of the complete VV bibliography which download links for most stuff
Wolfe is a real puzzle box guy; the successor of Nabokov, kind of. Everything happens off stage or your narrator is untrustworthy or ill informed and you have to put everything together yourself. Sometimes this can be merely irritating, but I absolutely love the Torturer books and Fifth Head.
Beardsley was also known at the time as Awfully Weirdsley - not without cause.
Since Star Trek has been mentioned here, I'm surprised no one has mentioned Harlan Ellison as a writer. Bet Althouse would enjoy "Jeffty Is Five".
My favorite SF character is the Great Cthulhu, although to the modern reader he suffers from lack of character development.
The only science fiction novel I have ever enjoyed was The Sparrow by Mary Doria Russell. I have never been able to get into any others, even by the great writers of science fiction. They read to me like Ayn Rand novels, too pedantic.
Speaking of SF & history:
I can think of at least three SF settings of Xenophon's Anabasis:
The Lost Fleet books by Jack Campbell.
The Prince Roger books by Weber & Ringo
Star Guard by Andre Norton.
Of course, Xenophon didn't write SF, but a lot of SF writers read Xenophon..
My favorite SF character is the Great Cthulhu, although to the modern reader he suffers from lack of character development.
Great. Now you've insulted Cthulhu. I was hoping not to die screaming soon.
I agree that Ian Banks was the best of the modern era, very smart books. His career was cut short, however some (not particularly me) claim that the later Heinlein should have had the same fate.
Although he does have a softer side.
As the Russian says, Every bad SF novel is bad in the same way. Every great SF novel is great in it's own unique way. I think that was a GMAT question at one time.
Unknowns video is a nice tribute to Cthulhu.
Of course "The Stars My Destination" you stupid bowbs.
"All You Zombies" Heinlein's 1959 intersex story.
"Snow Crash."
Any history SciFi has to include the author that started a religion based on one of his visions/stories, all the better to make money off it.
Hubbard's Scientology is a Science Fiction if ever there was one.
Maybe Nancy Pelosi should read C. M. Kornbluth. Her party may need a Marching Morons scenario in the near future.
When Stranger in a Strange Land came out, some of my flower children friends really thought it was great. They hoped that this new writer would publish another book soon. I told them he'd been around for awhile, and recommended they read Farhham's Freehold or Glory Road.
My favourite is the Hitchikers Guide.
Blogger rhhardin said..."Fred Hoyle, in something probably called the black cloud or something, had a nice line where a planetary problem was attacked by assembling world experts in London. I thought, even in the 50s or so, that was a little out of date."
Yep, The Black Cloud, Harper 1957. Read it as a kid and remembered enjoying it enough that I tracked it down and bought it a few years ago.
yes, but that's more comic allegory, I dubbed Obama after Zaphod 'the self absorbed conman and Galactic President,' the film version was weak except for Zoey Deschanel's presence,
The Stars My Destination is a ... re-write of The Count of Monte Crisco.
That's always been a slippery read.
Can't believe nobody has mentioned E. M. Forster's The Machine Stops, so I'll just mention it here.
"And it was handy that those planets had breathable air and were populated by humans or creatures who looked like humans, and who spoke English."
I'm no Trekkie (more like a trekkie-lite), but credit where credit is due.
Oh, they did a great job - check out the colored-lights backgrounds made from cardboard and plywood. It's like the old Batman series in a lot of ways, and a bit like a play. "Suspension of disbelief" is needed, but that gets harder the older you get (said the old guy).
But I also wonder if the series would've worked without the hammy Shatner.
And just by ethereal happenstance, here's a review of a book which purports to explain why almost the Star Trek aliens evolved to be easy for the makeup department:
"current humanoids encounter a recording made by an “ancient humanoid“, which explains that they had “seeded” planets across the galaxy with DNA that would drive evolution on those planets in a humanoid direction. It was never explained how this would work." And more stuff.
the film version was weak except for Zoey Deschanel's presence,
The radio version was quite good.
"I told them he'd been around for awhile, and recommended they read Farhham's Freehold or Glory Road."
You Sir are one evil being.*
* I mean that in a good way. ;)
For intricate world building, there is j Michael strzinski epic Babylon 5, which had aspects of space opera, allegory, history, the vorlons are the progenitor race, which performed the seeding function, Sheridan, is a much more dry protagonist then kirk even though his character arc was greater.
I like the, er, topoi, of the "Alien" franchise although only the first movie rocked. Excellent completely non-human creatures similar to real animals (wasps), created by advanced genetic engineering to wipe out pests, namely you.
The Godfather: Cruel man, very cruel.
I didn't read the book, but Total Recall had the most exquisitely plotted scenario ever. It was a perfect Mobius strip. Any possibility that the ending of 2001 was also a Mobius strip. The astronaut at the end of his life meets himself at conception?.....Gulliver's Travels qualifies as scifi, and he's way before Jules Verne. In the movie versions of Gulliver, they usually leave out the most scifi part--the Yahoos......How come they never made a movie out of Brave New World? Borges wrote some good stories with a Twilight Zone vibe, but I don't think any ever made it to the screen.....There are some scifi novels that qualify as literature, but the pulp novels are the ones that make it to the screen.
well that's in the last round of films, Prometheus and covenant (I haven't seen the last) the first was more of an haunted house in space, deal, the second one occurs at a break neck pace,
A SciFi thread this long that hasn't mentioned Larry Niven at all, never mind not ranking him among the top 3 SciFi authors of all time, is a massive fail.
Thumbs up for the Zelazny references though. The Amber series is what got me hooked on fantasy literature as a teenager. First book in that series is "Nine Princes in Amber".
As for Heinlein, I would never recommend him without being very specific. The world he created for Starship Troopers was pretty great. And SiaSL was okay. But Number of the Beast was one of the worst books I've ever read.
And I love me some Babylon 5, but my wife refuses to watch it again. I can't really fault her reason why though - she simply HATES Delenn. Which I can understand... I don't loathe her but I can see how she as a character can rub someone the wrong way in a serious way. And she's far too central a character to simply ignore.
I think they have done television versions of brave new worlds, but it doesn't really lend it self to a large screen canvas,
I always found science fiction to be optimistic, even the dystopian stories. The Sparrow scared me silly with hopelessness.
Thank you all, I've already downloaded a couple of writers I never tried.
I think Dashiell Hammet and Raymond Chandler wrote within the boundaries of pulp but transcended the genre. Is there any Galaxy writer who did what they did?
she's a little impassive, kind of the spock figure, at times, londo the Machiavellian centauri has his pathos, the first captain, Jeffrey Sinclair, was a bit of a pill, it turns out Michael O'Hare wasn't entirely well adjusted,
To sidestep your question, I would just say that Hammet & Chandler both were tremendously influential *on* SF. There are inumerable SF books with hardboiled first person investigator narrators.
Compare 'do androids dream of electric sleep' and "blade runner' the former is virtually unfilmable, the latter is more hammett in stylings, than chandler in the year we're living in,
narciso: She doesn't hate Delenn because she was impassive (and she really only was that in the first season)... she hates her for being so extremely smug and superior. And yeah, I can see it.
Almost all the other characters were awesome though, Londo, G'Kar, Garibaldi, Sheridan, Ivanona, etc. I agree that Sinclair was one of the weaker characters, but I still liked him okay. Worst was probably Talia Winters, who was married in real life to Jerry Doyle (Garibaldi) for a couple of years.
Good SF Novels:
01) Anything by HG Welles
02) Anything by Jules Verne
03) Dune
04) Starship Troopers
05) Frankenstein
06) Martian Chronicles
07) Fahrenheit 451
08) A Clock Work Orange
09) Hitchhikers Guide
10) Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?
Its amazing to track the decline of the Hugo Awards from the 1960s to the 2010s. From the sublime to the ridiculous.
I spoke of Vance upthread. I don't have a particular lapidary passage of his at hand in my memory, or a particular sumptous feast description, but this bit of dialoge from Ecce & Old Earth has always struck me as particularly Vancian.
(Wayness is on Old Earth trying to track down the missing charter of the Naturalist Society which declares the planet Cadwal to be a nature preserve in perpetuity. Her search has led her to some rustic backwaters)
==
Pombareales lay still far to the south, with catch-as-catch-can travel connections. In the morning Wayness somewhat dubiously climbed aboard an airbus of venerable vintage, which rose with a lurch and groan, then flew heavily south, wallowing to gusts of wind. The other passengers seemed to take the vehicle’s alarming peculiarities for granted, and showed concern only when one of the lurches caused them to spill their beer. A gentleman sitting beside Wayness described himself as a steady patron who long ago had abandoned fear. He explained that since the vehicle had been flying back and forth from north to south and north again for many years, there was no reason to suppose that on this day of all days it would collapse in mid-air and fail to do its duty. “In sheer point of fact,” he told Wayness, “the vehicle becomes safer each day it flies, and I can prove this point by mathematics, which of course is infallible. You speak with a good accent; may I assume that you are skilled in the use of logic?”
Wayness modestly admitted that this was the case.
“Then you will follow my reasoning without difficulty. Assume that the vehicle is new. Let us say that it flies safely for two days, then crashes on the third day. Its safety record is not good: one crash in three trips. If, however, the vehicle flies ten thousand days, as has this one, its safety record is at least one in ten thousand and one, which is very good! Furthermore, each succeeding day that passes without incident, the risk becomes smaller so that by an equal increment the passenger’s sense of security should increase.”
The vehicle was struck by a particularly vicious gust of wind; it jerked and plunged and from somewhere came a wrenching tearing sound, which the gentleman ignored. ‘‘We are probably safer here than if we were sitting at home in an easy chair, at the mercy of a rabid dog.”
“I appreciate your explanation, which is very clear,” said Wayness. “I still feel a bit nervous, but now I do not know why.”
BTW, The Road by McCarthy and Foundation by Asimov were also good.
Burroughs - A princess on Mars was a hoot!
One of my favorite bits on B5 was Garibaldi explaining his Daffy Duck poster as the God of Frustration.
Burroughs founded a whole sub-genre "Swords & Planets" with that book. Too bad the movie sucked.
"Scifi movies are better than scifi novels."
Good SF movies:
01) Star Trek Wrath of Khan
02) Star Wars
03) Empire Strikes Back
04) Forbidden Planet
05) Flash Gordon
06) War of the Worlds (1953)
07) Journey to the Center of the Earth
08) Planet of the Apes
09) Terminator
10) Back to the Future
Remember, all the Marvel movies are SF..
Have thousands of SF books, and a 20 year run of Analog/Astonishing.
Regarding Needle; it is by Hal Clement. His best work: Mission of Gravity,published in 1954. The book's hero is a true alien from another world, an intelligent native of a planet with gravity up to 700 times earth's. Clement takes the reader to a "real" place, we could never go. A great read, it holds up well.
Heinlein's best is "The moon is a harsh mistress." Read Asimov's original Foundation "trilogy", when it first came out in the 50's. He had the capital of the galactic empire in the center of the galaxy. He didn't know about the giant black hole that might make that difficult.
Science fiction is helpful. It stretches your mind to be able to cope with the strange world we live in. I thought the 60's were Heinlein's crazy years, it turns out they were just the appetizer.
Clement published followups to both Needle and Mission of Gravity. They weren't bad, but weren't groundbreaking as those two works were.
(As a side note, I got my copy of Needle from a used furniture store in Florida under the title From Outer Space..)
well trantor at the center of the galaxy, like rome, was kind of a metaphor, it's a shame no one really tried to adapt it, although it's sky piercing global scapes inspired the star wars prequels,
No mention of Lucifer's Hammer?
Or A canticle for Leibowitz?
Or, if you want something much more recent, The Three Body Problem?
Foundation is kind of anti-cinema. Asimov went out of his way to not make it space-opera, and in fact wrote a dinner scene making fun of space-opera in a way.
It was more Gibbon, as Asimov admitted in his humorous verse:
==
"The Foundation of S.F Success"
(with apologies to W. S. gilbert)
If you ask me how to shine in the science-fiction line as a pro of luster bright,
I say, practice up the lingo of the sciences, by jingo
(never mind if not quite right).
You must talk of Space and Galaxies and tesseractic fallacies in slick and mystic style,
Though the fans won't understand it,
they will all the same demand it
with a softly hopeful smile.
And all the fans will say,
As you walk your spatial way,
If that young man indulges in flights through all the Galaxy,
Why, what a most imaginative type of man
that type of man must be.
So success is not a mystery,
just brush up on your history,
and borrow day by day.
Take an Empire that was Roman
and you'll find it is at home in
all the starry Milky Way.
With a drive that's hyperspatial,
through the parsecs you will race,
you'll find that plotting is a breeze,
With a tiny bit of cribbin'
from the works of Edward Gibbon
and that Greek, Thucydides.
And all the fans will say,
As you walk your thoughtful way,
If that young man involves himself in authentic history,
Why, what a very learned kind of high IQ, his high IQ must be.
Then eschew all thoughts of passion
of a man-and-woman fashion
from your hero's thoughtful mind.
He must spend his time on politics,
and thinking up his shady tricks,
and outside that he's blind.
It's enough he's had a mother,
other females are a bother,
though they're jeweled and glistery.
They will just distract his dreaming
and his necessary scheming
with that psychohistory.
And all the fans will say As you walk your narrow way,
If all his yarns restrict themselves to masculinity,
Why, what a most particularly pure young man that pure young man must be.
==
(Asimov was very much not a pure young man!)
dagnab it -- didn't get the line wraps quite right. Oh well.
One thing I remember from watching "Tom Corbett, Space Cadet" and "Captain Video" is that their rocket ships landed the way Elon Musk's do.
So when I was older I was chagrined to see all those huge Mercury, Gemini and Apollo rockets crashing into the sea.
SpaceX is one impressive outfit.
one of the horde's writers alex Lloyd, seems to have written a greater epic, like the prequels but with fully realized characters,
mal Reynolds of firefly was close to the stainless steel rat, in style, if not background,
Those trashy old Space Operas had great villains, like Ming the Merciless and Cleolanta, the Suzerain of Ophecius.
Christy said...
I always found science fiction to be optimistic, even the dystopian stories.
Freeman Dyson has a wonderful essay (part of any essay? An introduction to an essay?) in which he explains that Science Fiction is romantic and comic and so diverged from literature and culture from Jules Verne, onwards. I wish I knew where to find that essay.
@Lawrence Person
That's impressive. Bibliophiles are my favorite people. When we rolled everything up for retirement I gave away over 15,000 titles, mostly SF. My prized possession is a signed first edition first impression LOTR.
Read all of Bradbury's stuff. My best friend liked Asimov and Clarke but they seemed too dry for me. I might go and try to read some Heinlein and Dick now.
THEOLDMAN
No love for RA Lafferty. A very different Space Odyssey.
> "Needle"
The Astounding serial is packed in a box sitting in my closet. Among the lesser known Clement serials is "Iceworld" about a sulfur based alien narc trying to track down the source of the horribly addictive new drug tobacco.
Zorak the Evil Mantis on Space Ghost. Everything else has been mentioned already, including The Machine Stops (wasn't that updated as a film in the 60s with a different title?)
Bradbury does nothing for me, outside Fahrenheit. Burgess wrote dystopic things other than Orange; Nabokov's Ada is among other things an alternative Earth, with hydraulic telephones [and sexy twins, always with the sexy sibs]; Old Amis' The Alteration is steampunk avant le lettre in some ways. J.G. Ballard, yes.
Narr
Memories . . .
The Forever War by Joe Haldeman is one of my all time favorites.
Think Starship Troopers with a Vietnam War era point of view.
RA Lafferty was a genius, but almost forgotten now. Last time I checked, almost all his stuff was out of print and there were no ebooks to be had (officially).
A unique talent with the Irish gift of blarney.
I got tired of Haldeman whining aftet awhile. Not a bad read otherwise.
Have we forgotten Orson Scott Card?
...
pacwest said...
@Lawrence Person
That's impressive. Bibliophiles are my favorite people. When we rolled everything up for retirement I gave away over 15,000 titles, mostly SF. My prized possession is a signed first edition first impression LOTR.
7/12/19, 6:48 PM
GIMME
WILL PLEASE HELP
PLEASE GIMMEEEEE
Bradbury does nothing for me, outside Fahrenheit.
I am so very, very sorry for you.
Also: Fritz Leiber
Unknown said: RA Lafferty was a genius, but almost forgotten now ...
It is complicated, there were legal issues -if I remember right (I used to read lots of info about these sort of things - Locus Magazine, Jerry Pournelle's website, the listservs that discussed the influences on the works of Gene Wolfe, and so on) whoever had access to and power over his estate was adamant that none of his books would be reissued in a profitable form, unless certain conditions were met (I assume conditions that sent lots of money to the heirs of Lafferty, but I could be wrong).
I have read a couple of his stories, they were good, although I could be wrong, I am not the greatest critic in the world.
If I remember right and the Lafferty stories were as good as I remember .... well, back in the day, people who could tell stories that well were considered by their fellow pagans to be, quite possibly (yes long ago such things were believed) grandchildren of one of the gods, usually granchildren of Apollo, who everybody sort of admired, although sometimes one of the lesser gods, or one of the legendary sea nymphs ......
As a Christian, and someone who is glad that the childish pagan past is over for so many of us, I think of these men (and women) who have a great gift of telling stories as people who are in one sense fortunate - they tell wonderful stories, and maybe they see the ultimate end of all good stories ---- Paradise ----- and in another sense as among the least fortunate of us ----- this is a fallen world, and the gift of describing a fallen world is not a gift that the best angels, closest to God, would really want to be one of the greater gifts they have been given ---- and that goes double for the angels who are less close to God.
Thanks for reading.
My understanding is that Lafferty was a devout Catholic and often addressed Christian themes, though not usually directly.
Fritz Leiber's two fantasy heroes, Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser are a very welcome counterweight to Howard's Conan, and 1970's "Ill Met in Lankhmar" thoroughly deserved its Nebula & Hugo, though my personal favorite remains "Lean Times in Lankhmar":
"The jug!"
Fritz Leiber's Conjure Wife scared the Hell out of me, a sort of College comedy of manners gone horribly wrong.
Has anyone caught the New Zealand series "The Almighty Johnsons" wherein the Norse gods moved to N.Z. in the 19th century? Took me about three episodes to get past the drugs, sex, and smoking but it turned into a hoot of a fantasy series.
I'm not normally this shameless; but since it's on topic, I offer this for your consideration...
Today I Am Carey is the story of five generations of a family as told by the android they adopt. It starts as a caretaker for their grandmother, who's in late-stages Alzheimer's. As part of caring for her, it pretends to be her absent family members; and to pretend to be them, it must understand them, and how the disease affects every member of her family.
After she passes away, the android watches over her granddaughter through all stages of her life: starting as a pre-schooler and following through school, college, marriage, career, and family. The android is the perfect neutral observer of her life, because everything is new and strange to it, and it wants to understand.
It's quieter science fiction, more "Flowers for Algernon" than rockets and rayguns. It's based on my award-winning short story which was inspired by my mother-in-law's last year of life. I hope it's of interest to those of you who read SF.
"RA Lafferty was a genius, but almost forgotten now. Last time I checked, almost all his stuff was out of print and there were no ebooks to be had (officially).
"A unique talent with the Irish gift of blarney."
I used to see Lafferty at the SF World Cons I attended. He is great, and right now, Centipede Press is engaged in a multi-year project of publishing a 12-volume collection of Lafferty's short stories in hard cover. I only found out about it after they had already published four volumes, the first two volumes already sold out. I quickly bought Volumes 3 and 4, and found a copy of Volume 2 on Amazon for not too dismaying a price. They just recently published Volume 5, which I promptly purchased.
I also have two hard cover short story collections of his published years ago by Corroborree Press, both signed by Lafferty.
I also have a signed copy of David R. Bunch's BRILLIANT!!!!!!! MODERAN. The original edition, a lowly paperback published in 1970 by Avon, has been out of print for decades, but NYRB Press published a new edition--with additional stories!!--just last year.
Grab it, read it, be amazed by it, love it!!!!
but since it's on topic, I offer this for your consideration...
Thanks. Sounds like a fun thought experiment and plot. I'll pick it up.
I have a big box of old sci-fi paperbacks which I photographed — here — and considered doing a project where I read (and wrote about) all of them. Didn't get encouragement at the time, so that was that.
"Hmm, the Christian old testament is older, and maybe even wackier"/"The first science fiction was some hairy guy in a cave pointing at the moon and making up some bullshit to impress a hairy woman."
This is why the science part of the definition needs to be stressed. There are endless stories with fantasy, magic, supernatural happenings, divine interventions, and alternative worlds. You throw all that in and you have a uselessly overstuffed category.
"I understand that that the ancient Sanskrit epics are full of scifi-y elements."
That is discussed at the Wikipedia article linked in the post.
"Ancient Indian poetry such as the Hindu epic Ramayana (5th to 4th century BC) includes Vimana flying machines able to travel into space or under water, and destroy entire cities using advanced weapons. In the first book of the Rigveda collection of Sanskrit hymns (1700–1100 BC), there is a description of "mechanical birds" that are seen "jumping into space speedily with a craft using fire and water... containing twelve stamghas (pillars), one wheel, three machines, 300 pivots, and 60 instruments."[4] The ancient Hindu mythological epic, the Mahabharata (8th and 9th centuries BC) includes the story of King Kakudmi, who travels to heaven to meet the creator Brahma and is shocked to learn that many ages have passed when he returns to Earth, anticipating the concept of time travel."
Re: RA Lafferty. Amazon has “The Best Of...” in paperback. I am sure you can by through the portal.
Obviously the ancient Lucian was not a hard SF writer. Otherwise he would have had to explain how the spider web would not wrap itself around the earth, how infantry could march from the moon to Venus in a lifetime, and how, like Polish astronauts, the people of the sun would go out only at night.
So it was, Professor. My bad--I don't always go to or finish links.
Narr
More fun to talk
Wow, great thread. Despite their awful hygiene and long criminal records, Althouse commenters are the best.
Internet Archive has many recordings of both Dimension X and X Minus One, serious 1950s attempts to bring sci-fi to radio in a weekly format. Many classics from the biggies, including at least five from Heinlein. If nothing else, listen to the opening of X-1. It's cool.
"Of course "The Stars My Destination" you stupid bowbs."
Werner Von Braun- I aim for the stars, but sometimes hit London.
Ven der rockets go up who cares where dey come down, tats not my Department, says Werner Von Braun.
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