July 22, 2019

"Those on the left have been going over how we’re supposed to feel about him for decades, but in the arguing about it, we have been asked to focus again and again on Clinton and his dick and what he did or didn’t do with it."

"The questions we’ve asked ourselves and one another have become defining. Are we morally compromised in our defense of him or sexually uptight in our condemnation? Are we shills for having not believed he should have resigned, or doing the bidding of a vindictive right wing if we say that, in retrospect, he probably should have?"

Writes Rebecca Traister, in "Who Was Jeffrey Epstein Calling? A close study of his circle — social, professional, transactional — reveals a damning portrait of elite New York" (a long compendium by the editors of New York Magazine). Traister continues:
Meanwhile, how much energy and time have been spent circling round this man and how we’ve felt about him, when in fact his behaviors were symptomatic of far broader and more damaging assumptions about men, power, and access to — as Trump has so memorably voiced it — pussies?
You wouldn't have spent all that time if you'd been consistent in the first place. Anyone who cared at all about feminism back then already knew the "far broader" picture! That is feminism. If you'd put feminism over party politics at the time, you'd have easily processed the Clinton story long ago.
After all, Clinton was elected president during a period that may turn out to be an aberration, just as the kinds of dominating, sexually aggressive behaviors that had been norms for his West Wing predecessors had become officially unacceptable, and 24 years before those behaviors would again become a presidential norm. So yes, Clinton got in trouble, yet still managed to sail out of office beloved by many, his reputation as the Big Dog mostly only enhanced by revelations of his exploits.
I don't understand the logic of this "After all... So yes" rhetoric. I feel that I'd need to rewrite those 2 sentences to begin to understand them. I invite your efforts. Here's mine: Although Clinton became President after America had officially rejected sexual harassment in the workplace, many people gave him a pass and even loved him more because he did it anyway.
But the election of Trump over Clinton’s wife, and the broad conversation around sexual assault and harassment that has erupted in its wake, has recast his behavior more profoundly.
Ha ha. What's "profound" about partisan politics? It's not profound. It's laughably shallow!
The buffoonery, the smallness and tantrums of Trump, has helped make clear what always should have been: that the out-of-control behavior toward women by powerful men, the lack of self-control or amount of self-regard that undergirded their reckless treatment of women, spoke not of virility or authority but of their immaturity.
To "undergird" is to fasten something securely from the under-side. According to this sentence, lack of self-control undergirded recklessness. When I see writing like this, my hypothesis is that the writer is declining to be straightforward. Here's my paraphrase: Things that are perfectly visible go in and out of focus depending on what you want to see.
And the people who have paid the biggest price for these men’s fixation on sex as a measure of manhood have, of course, not been the men themselves.

In Clinton’s case, it has been Monica Lewinsky, whose life and name became defined by her relationship to him. It has been his wife, Hillary, who, in addition to having been celebrated and pilloried for her defense of her husband, also had to conduct one of her three historic presidential debates with women who’d accused him of sexual misconduct sitting in the audience, invited there by her opponent as props to unsettle and disempower her. It has been decades of left feminist women who have had Clinton’s misdeeds thrown in our faces as proof of our own hypocrisy.
See, I would have put Juanita Broaddrick, Paula Jones, and Kathleen Willey first on that list. And give me a break!  "Decades of left feminist women"! You did it to yourselves! You're saying YOU suffered because you got called a hypocrite?! But you were a hypocrite. How about those of us who cared about feminism all along and saw what you were doing and experienced shunning from you? What about our suffering?
I try sometimes to imagine a contemporary Democratic Party without Bill Clinton in its recent past — yes, of course, from a policy perspective, but also simply from a personal one. What if so much energy had not been eaten up by his colleagues, by his wife, by feminists, by his supporters and friends and critics, all of whom had to dance around him, explain their associations with him, or carefully lay out their objections to him without coming off as frigid reactionaries?
Frigid?! Whoa! "Frigid" is a classic misogynist taunt, and Traister is using it to express her fear. I just walked away from my desk and ranted out loud for 5 minutes. Sorry, I didn't make a recording, and now I'm in no mood to type it out.
What else might we have done with our politics had we not been worrying about Clinton and his grubby buddies? What further power have they taken from us? 
My question is: What power did you set aside in your eagerness to perform a pleasing dance of non-frigid leftism?

230 comments:

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Rick said...

To me, that's like catching all of Moriarty's puppets instead of the man himself.

Being stupid isn't a crime.

exiledonmainstreet, green-eyed devil said...

chuck said...
> I can only imagine what women say about men to other women when men are not around.

Sleeping on a couch in a dorm lobby (NYC) and overhearing the conversation of the early morning cleanup crew, I don't need to imagine it. I don't know who the guys they were talking about were, but I learned more about them than I wanted to know.

7/22/19, 10:19 AM

A few weeks ago, I watched a rather crappy movie called "The Banger Sisters," about two ex-groupies (Goldie Hawn and Susan Sarandon) who meet up again 20 years after their glory years. The two of them get drunk and go over a stash of photos the Sarandon character has kept hidden from her family. They are snapshots of "rock cocks" - the dicks of famous rock stars with the name of the star written on the back of the photo. The two of them try to guess which cock belongs to which star without looking at the name on back.

I like bawdy humor, but I didn't find either the movie or that scene to be particularly funny. Just imagine a film where two aging Don Juans get plastered, pull out a collection of nude photos featuring all their former lays, and try to guess which woman is which by looking at T & A.

doctrev said...

Brian said...

Yes that's why she did it but it denied her the power she really wanted! The Presidency! Bill cost Gore the 2000 election simply because Gore was his VP. It wasn't anything on a cognitive level but you could feel it. The DNC stuck with Bill for power's sake and that was distasteful. If Bill had been forced to resign it would have all been different. And Hillary was young and had the moral high ground. She'd have still been a force in politics. It really is an ultimate irony in some sense.

7/22/19, 11:58 AM

I don't think you actually believe that Hillary Clinton had the moral high ground. Ever. No one with more than five brain cells believes that, which is why Hillary's campaign staff went into overdrive insanity trying to make the 2016 election a character debate (???)

If Hillary had divorced Bill, it would take legendary political skills to keep the Bill Clinton fangirl voters on Team Hillary, and that's assuming Bill was quite fine with destroying his personal reputation to enhance his wife's. She would have to make the case that she was the more competent half of the pair, which would also not work in 2000 given the debacle of Hillarycare.

What Hillary wanted was an easy lay-up victory in 2008. Obama put paid to that, not only because of his personal charisma and the relentless affirmative action handicap granted by the media monolith, but also because Hillary Clinton could fuck up a wet dream in every sense of the phrase. She was granted yet -another- chance at power in 2016, and we know capitalism has failed us profoundly mainly because no one has bottled the sheer frustration that Election Night caused her and marketed it to an enthusiastic audience.

Quaestor said...

When I see writing like this, my hypothesis is that the writer is declining to be straightforward.

Or has a more limited vocabulary than she realizes. When it comes to headstrong misuse of words greater obstinacy than an allegory on the banks of the Nile is a common characteristic of involuted feminist writers.

Bruce Hayden said...

The thing that a lot of people forget (or don’t know because they are too young) is that Bill and Crooked Hillary apparently had a deal - she would support him, if he kept his fly up in his pants. But Bill being Bill, was constantly sneaking around trying to out maneuver her. In the White House, she had her people, and he had his. Hers were trying to keep his philandering under control while his were trying to help him get away with it. I think that he liked the danger and getting away with something in their tit for tat relationship. This was well known his first term, when she and her people seemed to have the upper hand. What was surprising was that he had managed to pull a fast one on her with Monica Lewinsky. His people, esp including his secretary, willingly helped him out. Without their fairly overt help, he would never have gotten away with being alone with Lewinsky in the WH multiple times. They all knew about, but I think were willing participants in, the game going on between the Clintons. From what I know of the two of them, I probably would have picked his side too - he was charismatic, and even back then she was a violent, shrill, vengeful, harridan. And Lewinsky - I think that she was just a willingly innocent bystander in the Clintons’ game with each other.

Quaestor said...

That is just the left's problem?!

Freder's willful ignorance showing as usual.

Anonymous said...

Ann; Your last sentence exquisitely states the case of women who supported Bill, regardless. A complete abandonment of principle for holding power.

Given all his crimes Bill was probably the most talented Democratic politician of the last 40 years. I say that with gritted teeth.

doctrev said...

Bruce Hayden said...

What was surprising was that he had managed to pull a fast one on her with Monica Lewinsky. His people, esp including his secretary, willingly helped him out. Without their fairly overt help, he would never have gotten away with being alone with Lewinsky in the WH multiple times. They all knew about, but I think were willing participants in, the game going on between the Clintons. From what I know of the two of them, I probably would have picked his side too - he was charismatic, and even back then she was a violent, shrill, vengeful, harridan. And Lewinsky - I think that she was just a willingly innocent bystander in the Clintons’ game with each other.

7/22/19, 1:14 PM

Yes, and his retainers are now people who have stuck with him for decades. There are kings who don't have this kind of personnel retention. Conversely... Hillary's best days are behind her, and everyone knows it. She might think her guards are loyal to her, but I would sleep with one eye open knowing they would happily push me from a balcony if Bill decided I had become a liability.

doctrev said...

KheSanh 0802 said...

Given all his crimes Bill was probably the most talented Democratic politician of the last 40 years. I say that with gritted teeth.

7/22/19, 2:27 PM

As one of the wisest philosophers of our age once said, "What can I say- Chicks dig psychopaths!"

bagoh20 said...

For all his philandering, I can't imagine Trump doing Monica, or doing anyone in the Oval Office. I think he respects the office and himself too much for either one of those.

Hillary must have kept Bill on a short leash for him to need to take those risks, or he was just kind of a low life who would jump on anything he could, which his history seems to suggest is kind of his M.O.

Michael K said...

Once people are off the stage there's no discussion because people talk about the present.

Not true of the new Red Guards. Washington should be as much off limits as any historical figure in our history.

And it's your team. No surprise you want to pretend it doesn't happen.

Martin said...

All this angst is just people trying to reconcile how to hold Trump's socio-sexual behavior against him in light of how the ignored Clinton's.

Once they square that circle, as they will, Full Speed Ahead!

Bruce Hayden said...

“Hillary must have kept Bill on a short leash for him to need to take those risks, or he was just kind of a low life who would jump on anything he could, which his history seems to suggest is kind of his M.O.”

I think that it was a supposedly very short leash, which may be why he had to resort to using the Oval Office for his trysts with Lewisky.

Bruce Hayden said...

Talking about Crooked Hillary and her love interests, I noticed today that Anthony Weiner was back with his former wife, and Crooked Hillary confidante, Huma Abdelen and their young son. It would be interesting to find out some more of the background. Are the two Hs, Hillary and Huma now on the outs? Or is Bill’s outing as a frequent flyer on the Lolita Express now justification allowing Huma to reunite with her registered sex offender ex husband?

And talking about rumors, is Barack H Obama II really the son of BHO Sr? He doesn’t look the least bit alike any of his paternal relatives, but instead looks more Somali or Ethiopian. But then his daughters seem to have returned to type, looking more like the daughters that his father might have sired than he might have. He may actually have been the first gay President as recurrent rumors have suggested. But then there are other rumors that the two girls were adopted, and Michelle was the first trans woman First Lady. Not that I believe any of those scandalous rumors, of course.

traditionalguy said...

This is why we need "the Squad." They will make all females wear burkas and accept being beaten by the males in their family. And of course they will have all the gays executed. And then they will do the final solution for Jews and WASPs. All we have to to get this result is crush The Bad Orange Man.

John henry said...

When Crooked Hillary say she was "walking in the woods sipping chardonnay" it is code for "I was passed out in the corner behind the potted plant after chugging a pint of EverClear."

John Henry

Ingachuck'stoothlessARM said...

"Zip it !!" should have been ordered repeatedly to Bill & Hill

james said...

Equality for women and gays is middle of the road?
Well. Pretending that a man + a man or a woman + a woman = a man + a woman and ought to be treated as such is not middle of the road. It is a lie
Which is not to say that gays ought to be denied something like a civil union. But that are not in a marriage. No matter what the left or SCOTUS says.

Tom Grey said...

Great note by Ann, but a little too focused on Pres. Bill Clinton, without mentioning 23 trips with pedophile Epstein taken by Clinton. I'm sure none of the underage girls was wearing a blue dress.

Most strong, alpha males who are Dems seem to be womanizers: JFK was, MLK was (see the 40 women he was with that the FBI has tapes on, 2027?), even John Edwards (remember the VP of Kerry 2004?). And so many Hollywood males.

Most of Trump's womanizing happened before he was a Republican.

Brian said...

I don't think you actually believe that Hillary Clinton had the moral high ground.

It doesn't matter what I thought it's what voters thought. Stop seeing her for what she is now and instead look at her from '97. She was well liked. Bill won re-election handily.

The left liked that she wasn't Tammy Wynette or baking cookies. She was the power behind the man. The media would have loved her leaving him. We'd have endless Today show morning specials about women starting over after divorce, etc. It would be the "new normal".

Instead she bided her time. Got a Senate seat in the process as a springboard to the Presidency. She probably thought that was the best she could hope for, but Senators don't become presidents (Obama was only a Senator for 2 years, which basically means he was running for President his entire term).

Is Hillary better off in a 2016 election if she had left Bill in '97 or if she had stayed with him and had to deal with the constant reminders? The #MeToo movement you see now is basically an outcropping of "we no longer have to look the other way about harassment because Bill is gone". It would have happened MUCH earlier after Bill was gone. Rooting out #MeToo predators back in the late 90's would have drawn the DNC to women candidates earlier! There were plenty of Republican targets as well, except they were outed as hypocrites, see Gingrich, et. al.

It's not about moral high ground. It's about strength. She took a backseat to Bill's political career in exchange for a later expectation of a foot in the door of politics (NY Senate). The thing is, she didn't NEED that. She was already a force in politics. All she had to do was demonstrate it. She could have run for NY Senate as a former first lady.

I suspect it came down to money. She could make more money with Bill than without, and with money you can buy political power. Which she did, but it doesn't buy you voters. You still have to be "likeable enough". She was anything but likable. Part of that was because she accepted Bill's transgressions.

I leave this thread with one final argument. The Access Hollywood tape almost killed Trump. It didn't because, why? Because Trump said that he'd heard worse from Bill Clinton on the golf course. And because of the Starr Report, we knew that was true! We had visuals in our mind of things that Bill had done. If she had left Bill back in '97 Trump couldn't have used that argument and he'd have been finished.

He probably wouldn't have run in the first place, since his previous relationships were so public. The litmus test for office would have been, "No Bill Clinton types".

Hindsight is 20/20.

wwww said...

Michel K.,

If you're going to accuse people of stuff you should read the older comments.

Anyways, the discussion comment was a reference to discussion to Trump in 20 years. I said people would not talk about him because he wouldn't be around and people would be concentrating on their current politicians. I have no idea what your idea is on that.

And who's talking about George Washington? Aside from the musical Hamilton I don't know what you're talking about. The musical 1776? That's an old movie and doesn't he just make a small cameo? My parents love that movie & would play it on 4th of July. I love Benjamin Franklin & John Adams depictions.

wwww said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Michael K said...

And who's talking about George Washington?

The San Francisco public school board. Try to keep up.

You're welcome.

Seeing Red said...

They’re wiping Jefferson off the map. Look at what Charlottesville just did.

Narr said...

Jefferson was pegged by C C O'Brien (sp?) back in the 90s as the probable first FF to be removed from the American pantheon. It seems (I am NOT a TJ scholar) he was racist in a way that was unusual even for his kind (unlike for instance HL Mencken, who on race turned out to be all too much like the boobs he ridiculed . . . but we can talk about him some other time).

The Washington Mural story is something too absurd to make up; what did C-ville do?

Narr
Afraid to know

wwww said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
wwww said...

well I haven't kept up with what's going on with a local school board in California.

BUT...I think what's most in the public's mind, lately, about the founding fathers, is the musical Hamilton. I think that musical shows them in quite a good light. It does bring in Sally Hemings but T Jefferson still comes out pretty well. & Washington and Hamilton come off very well. Even Aaron Burr is sympathetic.

Michael McNeil said...

All this talk of sexual scandal among national executive officers reminds me of the historical “tyrant” of the ancient Sicilian city-state of Syracuse, Dionysius I (lived 432-367 BC).

I've been reading historian J.B. Bury's (planner of the renowned Cambridge Medieval History) book concerning ancient Syracuse and Dionysius, to wit: The Syracusan Empire and Its Struggle with Carthage. Dionysius I basically saved Syracuse, along with the rest of historical Sicilian “Great Greece,” from Carthaginian conquest.

Dionysius also notably launched what we view today as the first military research and development project in history: out of which emerged military artillery — from great catapults in the large to crossbows on the small end of things — forcing states all round the Mediterranean to rebuilt their city walls lest they be easily knocked down.

Anyway, Bury had this interesting comment to make about Dionysius' reign's notable lack of any such scandals. As J.B. Bury writes: [quoting…]

More than one attempt was made to throw off the yoke, but his craft and energy defeated the most determined efforts of his adversaries. Yet the unusual ability of Dionysius would not have availed, more than the spearmen who were ever within call, to extend his unlawful reign to a length which a tyrant’s reign seldom reached, if he had not discovered and laid to heart what may be called a secret of tyranny.

While he did cruel and oppressive deeds for political purposes, he never committed outrages to gratify personal desires of his own. He scrupulously avoided all those acts of private insolence which have brought the reigns of Greek tyrants into such ill repute.

Many a despot had fallen by the hand of fathers or lovers, whom the dishonour of their nearest and dearest had spurred to the pursuit of vengeance at the risk of their own lives. Dionysius eschewed this mistake; his crimes and his enemies were political.

When his son seduced a married woman, the discreet tyrant rebuked him. “It is well for you to chide me,” said the young man, “but you had not a tyrant for your father.” “And if you go on doing this sort of thing,” retorted Dionysius, “you will not have a tyrant for your son.”

This notable moderation of Dionysius in private life was perhaps the chief cause of the duration of his tyranny; beyond the common motive of patriotism, men had no burning personal wrongs to spur them to encounter the danger of driving a dagger to the despot’s heart.

But, besides this discretion which made his government tolerable, his successes abroad counted for something, and it was more than once borne in on Syracuse that his rule was necessary to protect her against her enemies.

[/unQuote]
____
(J. B. Bury, The Syracusan Empire and Its Struggle with Carthage, 1914)

buwaya said...

The SFUSD's is a very important school board, in spite of the school district not being very large, as California ones go.

This is an exceedingly high profile city, and its school board is a farm team for local and state politics. Its acts are the basis for much relevant state legislation.

Narr said...

Love the Bury, thanks. Or as old Bolton said to his bastard on GoT, "Act like a mad dog and people will treat you like one."

Narr
Shoulda listened to the old man

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