July 14, 2019

"After years of neglect and boomer dominance in popular culture, someone had finally noticed us, in the sweetest way... 'Friends' was comfy, adorable, yet sharp."

"The hate-watch became a secret pleasure and, soon enough, we all had their haircuts... What nobody could have envisioned in the 1990s was the way children in the 2010s and '20s — born after 'Friends" first started to wear off — would form their own fixation on the show... My nearest frame of reference to this sort of cultural inertia would have to be 'The Brady Bunch,' the 1970s sitcom that, in reruns and brief revivals, acted as Gen X’s security blanket.... Irony was the key to it all.... But irony seems to have no place when it comes to the nonstop streaming of 'Friends'... [It is] slavishly re-watched with what appears to be an authentic and uncomplicated sincerity. Nobody watches [it] to make fun of the clothes or mock the message.... 'Friends'... acts as a soothing gateway to a time when people aren’t constantly looking at their phones. They sit on their Central Perk sofas and just talk, maintaining eye-contact. They listen to one another. They hilariously relate, in a constant state of mutual care. Their idea of stress is almost touchingly benign. No wonder people still want to hang out with them.... As the 'Friends' theme song goes, 'I’ll be there for you.' But those words referred to the bond among its characters. They were not an eternal promise to generations yet to come, and they should not have to be your friends forever. Let television take you somewhere, anywhere, everywhere else."

From "Do you really want to live in a world where ‘Friends’ and ‘The Office’ are TV’s most valuable shows?" by Hank Stuever, the WaPo TV critic.

Stuever is over 50, a Gen Xer. He thinks irony is key and these kids today are making a big mistake longing for sincerity and friendship. Something a quarter century old feels too "eternal" for him, and whoever wrote the headline for his column turned his dictate — "Let television take you somewhere, anywhere, everywhere else" — into a question — "Do you really want to live in a world where ‘Friends’ and ‘The Office’ are TV’s most valuable shows?" The market always answers that question. These shows are phenomenally valuable commercially. "Valuable" isn't really what's nagging at Stuever. He's objecting to the feelings and longings of younger people. They're not thinking right. The question — if you want to rephrase Stuever's opinion as a question — should be:  "Do you really want to live in a world where ‘Friends’ and ‘The Office’ are TV’s most emotionally rewarding shows?" And then it becomes easy to see that it makes little sense to tell young people to watch something else on television. The problem is in the real world, which is wearing on people in such a way that "Friends" feels restorative.

159 comments:

rcocean said...

I always love how, like an intrepid explorer of Darkest Africa - Althouse goes into the weird strange world of the NYT, Wapo, and New Yorker and brings out these nuggets of information for our comments. Why would anyone worry about what mysterious unnamed people are watching on TV? Personally, I thought Friends was dull as hell, and could never watch it for more than 5 minutes. But then my 90's TV watching was pretty much confined to Fraiser, Seinfeld, The Simpsons, and Kids in the Hall.

Carol said...

I never watched either of those shows but I remember when I had friends and we sat around and talked a lot. And laughed, and drank, and flirted, and all that.

Years ago one of those friends, who had come out and divorced another friend, said he hadn't really enjoyed himself that much and had just been faking it. Not sure I believe it, but for gays all prior life was a Lie! He died of AIDS.

What we're seeing now is some sort of manifestation of that ambivalence. Like, you're gonna have to be a lot more interesting to pull me away from this phone.. I admit I have it too.

CWJ said...

"Stuever is over 50, a Gen Xer."

Uh, no he's not.

Shouting Thomas said...

One of the fascinating (and probably good) things about America is how quickly the outs become the ins.

One of the drawbacks is that the outs seem to never recognize that they've become the ins and they spend most of their adult lives fighting against The Man that they have become.

jaydub said...

Never saw an episode of either Friends or the Office. I did find the following statement to be somewhat ironic: "'Friends'... acts as a soothing gateway to a time when people aren’t constantly looking at their phones." Yeah, they were wasting time watching sitcoms on the boob tube rather than wasting time on their iphones.

rcocean said...

BTW, I was the target audience for the "Brady bunch" and hated it. It was Hollywood plastic. That Robert Reed later come out of the closet, and that Florence Henderson was having sex with Greg Brady doesn't surprise me in the least. I liked the re-runs of Leave it Beaver better.

rcocean said...

Talking on your Iphone to real people is probably better than watching fake people on TV tell jokes that were written by a platoon of Hollywood writers.

buwaya said...

We watched the British "The Office". A bit. Does that count?
We liked "IT Crowd" much better.

Jeff Brokaw said...

It’s entertainment. In the case of Friends and The Office, very high quality and enduring entertainment.

As usual, critics overthink it. Don’t overthink it.

Fernandinande said...

"Do you really want to live in a world where ‘Friends’ and ‘The Office’ are TV’s most valuable shows?"

I've never seen an episode of "Friends", so of course I do.

Under duress I might admit to watching the US version of The Orifice.

Jupiter said...

I killed my last TV well before the first episode of Friends, but I can understand why people like to look at Jennifer Anniston. What's The Office about? Was she in that, too?

alanc709 said...

What do you expect, in a country where legislation opposing "hair discrimination" is the current rage.

Shouting Thomas said...

What's The Office about?

It's about the futility and boredom of the office, and how that doesn't stop the drones from fighting like idiots over the rewards.

Not bad. I've watched a few episodes.

Jeff Brokaw said...

Any search for meaning in popular culture is guaranteed to fail.

Anonymous said...

This damaged person wants everyone watching “Desmond is Amazing” instead, and would force us to do so if he had the power.

If I watched any TV, which I almost never do, I would be happy to stick with “Friends” and “The Office”. Happier still to enjoy “I Love Lucy”.

Bill Peschel said...

One important reason to experience entertainment is to get away from your world, whether you're a drone in an office or a concentration camp.

At its best, existence is boring.

Think of the Calvin and Hobbes Sunday strip, in which dad is waiting for the charcoal in the grill to get hot enough, and he goes on about taking the time to enjoy the moment, while Calvin wants him to use gasoline to get it done now.

I have a lot of days like that, but they're not memorable. We remember the extremes of joy and despair (which is why I can still flinch at being caught out as a child all these years later).

Generations of attacks on families have atomized us so much that we are drawn subconsciously to stories about families.

Lars Porsena said...

The Office ??? Watch the Brit version with Ricky Gervais and skip the American.

elkh1 said...

50s is a GenXer?

Ann Althouse said...

"Uh, no he's not."

Source?

I looked it up. He was born in 1968.

bagoh20 said...

TV programming has taken such a low road over the last decade, that a relatively average normal show like "Friends" easily rises to the top. By today's standards it's exceptional in its normality. The whole reality TV era, while having a few bright spots, was mostly a lost generation in entertainment. I doubt that much of it will have similar longevity of rerun interest. Similar with today's pop and rap music. It's amazing to me how much mileage music from 30, 40, or 50 years ago continues to get with young audiences.

Ann Althouse said...

"50s is a GenXer?"

If you are post-Boomer, you are Gen X, unless you are millennial ("Gen Y") — or post-millennial ("Gen Z").

Of course someone born in 1968 is Gen X!

The generations keep getting older. Sorry to bring you down with this amazing news.

CWJ said...

"The Office ??? Watch the Brit version with Ricky Gervais and skip the American."

Agreed, up to a point. When it first appeared, the American version slavishly copied the British version. In at least one case the script followed the original word for word. It did not travel well. But in later years, the American version found its own voice and became enjoyable on it's own merits.

Henry said...

All the kids I know watch anime.

Ann Althouse said...

I can enjoy "Friends" because it is a charming fantasy of life with friends. Each character has 5 permanent friends in life who are always around and always pretty nice to each other.

I can't watch "The Office" (the American version) because it recreates the horrible feeling of working in an office (which I have done).

I can't watch the British office because it's too burdensome to sort out what they are saying in those accents (and I love Ricky Gervais, but even so...).

The Cracker Emcee Refulgent said...

“What nobody could have envisioned in the 1990s was the way children in the 2010s and '20s — born after 'Friends" first started to wear off — would form their own fixation on the show... “

The interesting thing is how the half-life of popular culture has become much, much, longer. That my son would want to acquire every Led Zeppelin album struck me as odd and a little sad. That would be like me developing a fascination with Benny Goodman in my own early adolescence. Shit, I didn’t like Zeppelin even then.
Who knows? Perhaps it’s the ease with which the original material can be accessed now or maybe it’s that the current shit is bereft of creativity and unlikely to appeal to the more discriminating tastes. Maybe youth culture, which really didn’t exist prior to the ‘60’s, has an enduring quality, that continues to speak to successive generations of youths. Or the fact that everything in popular culture is derivative now and it doesn’t much matter whether it was made in 1967 or 2017.

buwaya said...

We will return to an ideal state when the style of music from 2-400 years ago, specifically the Baroque, returns to popularity.

Down with this vulgar romanticism.

rcocean said...

I find the British Comedy - at its best - better than the American. Fawlty Towers, the Office, Black Adder, Dads Army, Absolutely Fabulous, Are you being served?, etc.

rcocean said...

"I can't watch the British office because it's too burdensome to sort out what they are saying in those accents"

Most DVD's have subtitles in English. LOL

gspencer said...

Sit-coms are so life-like. For example, when Susan died, who goes to the hospital with George? Why Jerry, Elaine, and for good but puzzling measure, Kramer. That's how the passing of a young adult goes, right? I mean, you wouldn't family to be involved, would ya?

Rory said...

I look at a "Popular Culture" thread on another website. It's occurred to me that, maybe except for the comic book movies, there is simply nothing left in TV, movies, sports, and music that is aimed at a general audience. Hence, popular culture is a misnomer and what we have is a mishmash of niche cultures.

We do still have older music, TV, movies that were directed at general audiences, and I'm wondering if that material won't remain the common culture for several generations. Everything generated today will disappear, but in 2100 kids may still be watching Gilligan, the Brady's and the Beaver, while their elders veg out on Friends and Seinfeld, Green Acres and the Hillbillies, ALF and Mr. Ed.

CWJ said...

Althouse,

GenX was coined to capture the children of the baby boomers, the long awaited echo boom. This really didn't even begin to happen until about 1974. Recasting those born between 1964 and 1974 as GenX is just ex post facto revisionism to ensure that no one gets left out of the generational labeling.

Henry said...

In terms of money, Netflix spent $80M, I guess, for 2018, for the rights to Friends. That's for 236 episodes.

HBO spent $15M per episode to broadcast Game of Thrones.

Dropping a million dollars per episode or more is commonplace for the big content creators.

So how popular is Friends, really? A little bit popular. Drop-in-the-bucket popular.

Roger Sweeny said...

'Friends'... acts as a soothing gateway to a time when people aren’t constantly looking at their phones. They sit on their Central Perk sofas and just talk, maintaining eye-contact. They listen to one another. They hilariously relate, in a constant state of mutual care. Their idea of stress is almost touchingly benign. No wonder people still want to hang out with them.... As the 'Friends' theme song goes, 'I’ll be there for you.'

What's The Office about?

It's about the futility and boredom of the office, and how that doesn't stop the drones from fighting like idiots over the rewards.


Not a lot of emotional overlap there.

buwaya said...

We are both huge Anglophiles and infected the children.
Wife and daughter used to blast off to London every summer.
My father and grandfather both worked for a British "Hong", and the staff had an inside line to all that stuff from Hong Kong, from Cadbury's chocolate to Enid Blyton.

AllenS said...

Charlies Angels was really great the first year, but when Farrah Fawcett and her tits left the show, popular culture went down hill fast.

rcocean said...

BTW, Sanford and son, and All in the family are just Norman Lear ripoffs of more funny British Sitcoms.

rcocean said...

AllenS: Ha.

Le Stain du Poop said...

Never saw a single episode. Of that, or any other TV sitcom after MASH other than a few episodes of Seinfeld (which was good). Don't watch TV. Don't get TV. Don't understand why all y'all watch TV.

Not because I am better than y'all--just weirder.

Still I kind of would like an explanation---why do very hi I.Q. people watch TV????

Henry said...

The premise of the column is nonsense.

0_0 said...

CWJ- Are you trying to sat that everyone born from 1946 to 1973 is a Baby Boomer?

tcrosse said...

As an exercise in cultural anthropology I've been watching The Dick Van Dyke show, which was must-see TV in the early 1960's. What I didn't notice the first time around is that as adorable as Mary Tyler Moore was, Laura Petrie could be a real pain in the ass sometimes. Also that she got some of her shtick from Nanette Fabray, who learned it from Sid Caesar.

MBunge said...

"So how popular is Friends, really? A little bit popular. Drop-in-the-bucket popular."


Uh...no. The final episode of "Friends" aired in 2004. That a company is willing to pay $80 million for the rights to keep showing it AFTER IT'S ALREADY BEEN AIRING NON-STOP IN RERUNS ON CABLE TV AND LOCAL STATIONS FOR 15 YEARS is pretty remarkable.

Do you think Netflix is going to pay $80 million in 2034 for the rights to "Game of Thrones?"

Mike

Rory said...

Friends was a hit in the UK as well. There's never been a UK show that's been nearly as popular in the US.

"BTW, Sanford and son, and All in the family are just Norman Lear ripoffs of more funny British Sitcoms."

I urge everyone to see if they can get through an episode of "Til Death Do Us Part."

wildswan said...

I found the Office extremely funny, especially when I was working. There are characters like Dwight out there and weird head-office people and managers and layoffs and buy-outs and romances and picnics. But in print those situations might as well not exist for all the notice they get (perhaps because the TV shows are doing them.) For some reason I'm increasingly resistant to watching The Office - but not that I think it's bad. Something about it has become almost painful. Seinfeld is still OK. A show about nothing - perfect for a retired person. And I'm carefully watching Chicago Fire and Chicago PD to see how Millennials frame their dilemma. They cannot have a romance that lasts or respect their social institutions - Chicago, you know.

Henry said...

Mike, the point is Netflix is spending about 500,000 per episode to broadcast friends. Meanwhile Netflix, HBO, Amazon, the traditional networks, and so forth are spending well more than that on new material. A huge amount of media hours goes to YouTube and gaming.

An essay that purports to explain how all the young people are watching Friends is just a joke. In terms of media hours it's a drop in the bucket.

Temujin said...

No, I want to live in a world where Euphoria and Girls are what drives the culture. It seems to be working out well.

Rory said...

"HBO spent $15M per episode to broadcast Game of Thrones."

In its last two seasons, the six stars of Friends made $1 million per episode each. That's forty-two episodes, $250 million, before a script was written.

buwaya said...

I have found a great new respect for "I Dream of Jeannie" since we watched a few seasons of it last year. Its much more clever than it seemed to me as a kid.
And they quote Fitzgeralds translation of the Rubaiyat.

Anonymous said...

Criticizing Friends is too easy but its been easy to ignore. That kind of world is not my fantasy.

effinayright said...

Anyone know of a radio station that plays only "oldies" rap and hip-hop music?

I don't.

CWJ said...

O_O,

Lord no. How did you get that from what I wrote? Not every birth cohort needs to be labeled. It's the labelers that stretch the ends to meet in nice neat breaks from one category to another, which is by and large nonsense. Some birth cohorts are transitional from one distinct "generation" to another, while others are born into the heart of a generation. The baby boomers ended with those born in 1963, and in spite of there being a demographic basis for that date, even I consider '63 something of a stretch at the upper end.

Bob Smith said...

The only reason to watch “Friends” is to see Jennifer Anniston get hotter and hotter as time passes. I’d like to live long enough to see her at 70.

Ken B said...

I'm with buwaya. Wake me when cantata 105 makes the top 40.

Henry said...

In its last two seasons, the six stars of Friends made $1 million per episode each.

No one was spending money on the sets, that's for sure.

I think royalties to the original actors is still part of that chunk of change Netflix is paying.

Paco Wové said...

"Down with this vulgar romanticism."

Buwaya – you'll have to pry my Ludwig V. CDs from my cold, dead fingers.

ALP said...

I live in the Seattle area, where the media is obsessed with the cost of rent and how it affects 20-somethings moving/living here. Part of the problem, I believe, is that so many people in this younger generation simply cannot deal with having roommates. Disclosure: I had roommates in Seattle until I was over 30 - I chose financial stability over solitude until I could afford it.

I wonder if the cozy roommate situation of "Friends" is part of the appeal. "If only I had the cast of 'Friends' as my roommates to save on rent." Or "I wish I had the psychological makeup of the 'Friends' crew and could handle roommates like that."

wwww said...

Our babysitter (just over 19) has seen Friends, but it's a throwback and kind of "old timey." Her recommendations for movies/shows to watch were Beauty and the Beast with Emma Thompson and The 100.

The Millennial generation is "old" from her perspective. Time don't stop for anyone! It goes by fast.

I Callahan said...

Anyone know of a radio station that plays only "oldies" rap and hip-hop music?

SiriusXM Backspin

Seeing Red said...

When I saw a show relevant to me, I NEVER thought the previous generation was dominant. I just enjoyed the show.

Who thinks like this?

Bored and boring people.

Killjoys.

Misery loves company. Who wants to be around those people?

Wince said...

Things never heard of Friends...

Black Lives Matter
No Human is Illegal
Love is Love
Women's Rights are Human Rights
Science is Real
Water is Life
Injustice Anywhere is a Threat to Justice Everywhere

Zach said...

I see where Steuver is coming from, honestly.

The thing is, Friends was always low conflict comfort food. That was as true on the day each episode aired as it is now. And that style of television is very popular -- Big Bang Theory is just Friends with less attractive actors. It will be popular when someone comes up with the next iteration of the same formula.

It's popular, but it's not interesting. If you're a critic, what do you say about that show? It's the same show he didn't like when it originally came out.

William said...

The cast is likable and the jokes are funny. I'm not a super fan, but there are worse ways to kill a half hour. I admire the way that they all get around to bonking each other but that any jealous feelings are transient. Life would be so much more fun if it were like that.... Also, the show is dated in that none of the characters have a same sex affair with each other. I think Jennifer Aniston had a lesbo kiss at one point, but there was no affair with Monica or Phoebe. Pity. At least we didn't have to see Joey and Chandler locked in a hot embrace..... Also none of the cast member are east Indian. That's what all successful sitcoms have nowadays: Community, The Office, The Big Bang Theory, Parks and Recreation, The Good Place. It's seldom that you see a good sitcom nowadays that doesn't feature an east Indian character.....

Howard said...

Blogger buwaya said...
We watched the British "The Office". A bit. Does that count?
We liked "IT Crowd" much better.


Ditto Ditto said Tweedledum. Do you pronounce it the "Eye-Tee" Crowd or *It* Crowd? either one works, but the later is more ironic.

Jim at said...

If they would've had somebody other than that sniveling, insufferable Ross as a character, I might've watched more.

But, alas.

Yancey Ward said...

I liked both shows a lot, Friends and The Office, but I don't re-watch either show. I haven't re-watched a single episode The Office as far as I can remember, and there are only a handful (less than 10) episodes of Friends I have seen more than once (though I have seen every episode of both shows). On the other hand, I have seen every episode of Seinfeld more than twice- same with the original Law and Order, and the episodes of The Simpsons from the first 7 seasons.

Yancey Ward said...

And for the record, I am a GenXer- one of the oldest breed since I was born in 1966.

Howard said...

Blogger AllenS said...

Charlies Angels was really great the first year, but when Farrah Fawcett and her tits left the show, popular culture went down hill fast.


Keep going Tiger, you're on a roll today.

Howard said...

Blogger Temujin said...

No, I want to live in a world where Euphoria and Girls are what drives the culture. It seems to be working out well.


The world has never been better. They have really successful cures for paranoid delusions and depression now. Talk to a professional and get more fiber in your diet.

Zach said...

But then my 90's TV watching was pretty much confined to Fraiser, Seinfeld, The Simpsons, and Kids in the Hall.

So you like high conflict humor, where the joke relies on some character flaw or social more that puts a character into a situation where they're saying one thing and doing another. I'm the same way.

rcocean said...

Unless you're in the Movie/TV industry, why would you care how much a TV or movie costs?

It reminds me of sports talk, where the hosts CONSTANTLY talk about how much money the local teams are making, how much the local sports stadium is making, how much all the players are making, how much the TV networks are making showing sport, etc. Unless you're getting a piece of it, or paying for it, who cares? I assume lots of people get a vicarious thrill out of learning that their sport/Tv star makes $X millions.

Howard said...

Blogger CWJ said...Not every birth cohort needs to be labeled. It's the labelers that stretch the ends to meet in nice neat breaks from one category to another, which is by and large nonsense. Some birth cohorts are transitional from one distinct "generation" to another, while others are born into the heart of a generation. The baby boomers ended with those born in 1963, and in spite of there being a demographic basis for that date, even I consider '63 something of a stretch at the upper end.

I'm very sorry CWJ, but I have to agree with you. I was born in 1960 and have always related way more to the older so-called Gen-Xers than those born around Althouse.

Le Stain du Poop said...

So "for no reason," then.

Just as I suspected......

rhhardin said...

Get Smart (the TV series) was wildly popular with guys because 99 always showed Max she was satisfied with him, after he'd gone on a quest and somehow screwed up.

What a marriage would look like if women didn't nag.

rhhardin said...

The movie Get Smart (2008) was about uptight feminist 99 falling for rookie Max after he showed his natural interest and ability in a job she herself had to work to be good at. Impressed with clever masculinity.

The writers carried the Max gags and goofs as an obligation to the TV version but the new thread is the point of the movie.

Howard said...

Blogger rhhardin said...

Get Smart (the TV series) was wildly popular with guys because 99 always showed Max she was satisfied with him, after he'd gone on a quest and somehow screwed up.

What a marriage would look like if women didn't nag.


Nag is when they bitch on you for no good reason. Calling you on your shit is what friends do for each other to promote growth. I guess you have to be strong enough to live with a Hard Headed Woman. Did your Mom spoil you?

rightguy said...

I never watched more than two accidental minutes of either show. I am certain that when I get real close to the end of the line, I won't exclaim " God I wish I had watched more situation comedies ! ". Or got more tattoos.

Leland said...

I didn't watch much TV in the 90s. I had spent the previous 2 decades in a personal seclusion and felt like TV made it easier. I treated is an addiction I needed to overcome. However, I understood how much these shows brought joy to many. But I'll answer the question; I find Friends far more valuable than any Nightly National News broadcast. I don't know anybody that regularly watches the latter that doesn't have serious and dangerous emotional problems. I won't call it depression, because real depression doesn't require as much training nor seeks so much repetition.

CWJ said...

Howard,

Nonetheless, you're still part of the pig in the python regardless of how you self identify.

Mark said...

Can't say that I have ever laughed once at a Friends episode. The premise, the characters and the storylines are all moronic. They were moronic during their original run, back when I was post-college and they are no better now. I guess that would appeal to the Gen-X crowd, but frankly, none of the characters are appealing or funny. I certainly would have none of them as my "friends."

traditionalguy said...

All of the cast were great, and Lisa Kudrow was the greatest. She was always Lisa.

Narr said...

My wife watched Seinfeld and I eventually joined her; we watched Friends too, but in neither case were we fanatics--we just liked the fantasy NYC and charming nitwits. Jennifer A didn't hurt, but neither did CC; JLD is a cutie too.

The Office strikes me as brilliantly done but like someone else said, I've been there; it would be a like a show about high school.

Since others have brought it up, Yeah Go For Baroque. I always knew that both Bach and Handel wrote grand, glorious, and beautiful music for the female voice, but only recently have I discovered that Handel wrote grand, glorious, beautiful and SEXY music for the female voice.

Narr
Italian Cantatas opened my mind

buwaya said...

Handel, "Il Delirio Amoroso"?

Libretto was written by a Cardinal, interestingly.

Worthy.

MBunge said...

"Mike, the point is Netflix is spending about 500,000 per episode to broadcast friends. Meanwhile Netflix, HBO, Amazon, the traditional networks, and so forth are spending well more than that on new material"


Uh...duh! Again, "Friends" started running in syndication well before it's final episode. So Netflix is paying $80 million for a show that has been in reruns available on multiple channels for over 20 years. The fact that it still attracts enough of an audience to justify that kind of money WHILE IT IS SIMULTANEOUSLY AVAILABLE ON AMAZON AND DIRECT TV STREAMING AND BOTH NICKELODEON AND TBS is pretty remarkable.

Of course, new programs are going to cost more than the rights to reruns that are over 15+ years old. The issue who is going to pay the equivalent of $80 million to rerun those new programs 15 years from now.

I don't think you understand the TV business quite as well as you think you do.

Mike

buwaya said...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MFKsSDg_tcs

Three charming French women singing Handel cantatas.

If you are ever in San Francisco, look up the schedule for the SF Conservatory.
They have a formidable baroque program. My boy's guitar teacher is now a graduate of that. They have free performances.

Ann Althouse said...

“GenX was coined to capture the children of the baby boomers, the long awaited echo boom. This really didn't even begin to happen until about 1974. Recasting those born between 1964 and 1974 as GenX is just ex post facto revisionism to ensure that no one gets left out of the generational labeling.”

Look it. You yourself are doing revisionism. Wiki:

“Generation X (or Gen X) is the demographic cohort following the baby boomers and preceding the Millennials. Demographers and researchers typically use birth years ranging from the early-to-mid 1960s to the early 1980s. Generation Xers were children during a time of shifting societal values and as children were sometimes called the "latchkey generation", due to reduced adult supervision as children compared to previous generations, a result of increasing divorce rates and increased maternal participation in the workforce, prior to widespread availability of childcare options outside the home. As adolescents and young adults, they were dubbed the "MTV Generation" (a reference to the music video channel). In the 1990s they were sometimes characterized as slackers, cynical and disaffected. Some of the cultural influences on Gen X youth were the musical genres of grunge and hip hop music, and independent films. In midlife, research describes them as active, happy, and achieving a work–life balance. The cohort has been credited with entrepreneurial tendencies.”

Ann Althouse said...

“Most DVD's have subtitles in English.”

Yes. Of course. But it kills it. I’ve tried. Bought the box set dvd but could not enjoy it.

bagoh20 said...

"ex post facto revisionism"

"It's like deja vu all over again."

M said...

There are no purely “good” but flawed people in modern TV. Sons of Anarchy- the “good guys” are pornographers and gun runners, Dexter- “good guy” is a serial killer, Breaking Bad - teacher manufactures the drug that is devastating small town USA. Even sit coms push causal sex, moral relativism and nihilism. Of course young people will be attracted to anything that gives them an escape from that. As flighty and occasionally skanky as the Friends characters were for their time they are practically Church Ladies compared to what Hollywood is producing for family consumption now.

wwww said...

"Not every birth cohort needs to be labeled."

The very oldest or youngest in a generation may identify with the older or up-coming group. Millennials are age 23 to 38. Chatting with our babysitters (age 17-21) has made me realize the Z generation is different from Millennials. Different touchstones with music, movies, culture. It makes sense a 23 year old millennial would identify more with her 22 and 21 year old Z-gen friends then with 34, 35, 36 year old moms.

Cultural touchstones change pretty fast.

wwww said...

"There are no purely “good” but flawed people in modern TV"

My impression of the Z-gen is they are optimistic and not so interested in flawed heroes in their movies and shoes. Maybe their tastes will change as they get older, but Beauty and the Beast is a big hit. LOL a the hero is flawed in that movie. FWIW: My impressions they are not into sarcasm or irony. I can see why they'd be attracted to Friends.

Gunner said...

If Friends was made now, the lesbian couple would be the leads instead of quasi-despised comic relief guest stars.

Ralph L said...

1964 was actually the last year of the Boom. I've never read what actually caused the Birth Dearth other than fewer Depression/WW2 babies and early Boomers blooming late (why?). The crime rate jumped up the same year births plummeted, 1965.

Calling you on your shit is what friends do for each other to promote growth.

Well bred manners let you step on your shit instead of rubbing your nose in it.

Ingachuck'stoothlessARM said...

the serendipitous timing of this post is amusing,

since one of Clinton's/epstein's "Friends", Rachel Chandler, has surfaced mainstream now

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2019/07/rumors-swirling-that-one-of-epsteins-underage-prostitutes-has-provided-damaging-information-on-epsteins-friends-and-accomplices/

Allison Mack, you amateur!!

Jaq said...

I think that people born a couple of years plus or minus to 1960 feel different than Baby Boomers, and I think it may be sibling issues. But we probably aren’t that different than boomers. My oldest siblings wore “freshman beanies” when they went to college, and dressed far more formally. We late boomers were far more into grunge and rejecting that kind of shit.

Henry said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Jeff Brokaw said...

“He thinks irony is key and these kids today are making a big mistake longing for sincerity and friendship.“

Remember as a kid watching, say, Andy Griffith and thinking anything like the above?

Neither do I.

Henry said...

Mike - I'm sure someone has the popularity numbers somewhere.

The headlines are that Netflix paid this boatload of money for rights to broadcast Friends.

That money is seen as a proxy for popularity.

By using money as a proxy for popularity, a fellow like Hank Stuever can write about people in their 20s and 30s forming their own "fixation" and "slavishly rewatching."

But most people in their 20s and 30s don't give a shit about friends. They are watching something else. And we know this by using money as a proxy for popularity. Where is the money going? Tons of new shows all the time.

Friends is a cultural touchstone in the age of sand.

Rabel said...

The opinions on Friends of a gay man like the author of the Post article and a non-gay man like me cannot be reconciled due the overwhelming effect of Jennifer Anniston and her nipples on the non-gay viewer.

Two sitcoms - one screen.

As for female opinions, I don't understand and never will.

rehajm said...

Often people watch tv not to be challenged but to relax and unwind, escape perhaps. Old sitcoms provide the medium to achieve that. I think that’s why intelligent people watch. The extremely lads I grew up with needed a break after dealing with things they could only express mathematically all day. Light TV and some Captain Crunch brings you back to reality.

Oh, and despite the whinging the writing on some of these shows is real tight.

rehajm said...

Plus not many shows made today where you can avoid political propaganda so Friends has little competition. Lighten up, Francis.

YoungHegelian said...

@Narr,

I always knew that both Bach and Handel wrote grand, glorious, and beautiful music for the female voice, but only recently have I discovered that Handel wrote grand, glorious, beautiful and SEXY music for the female voice.

As a matter of fact, Bach wrote very little that was meant to be sung by female voices (e.g. the secular cantatas). All the sacred vocal music for high voices that Bach wrote was sung by countertenors or boy sopranos/altos. German & French church music, unlike Italian, did not use castrati.

Handel wrote very little liturgical music, but a lot of oratorios & operas in the Italian style, so he wrote a lot of music for castrati, both soprano & alto. Since there aren't a lot of castrati roaming around now, the roles get sung by women or countertenors. In Handel, there are, of course, lots of music that was originally written for female singers, but it's not something that you can just assume because of the range or the gender of the role.

Ralph L said...

I watch crime series, not sitcoms, and they all degenerate into soap opera and crimes against the cast--except for the original L&O. That's why "Is it because I'm a lesbian?" was such a shocker. The other thing they get is a big, multi-episode conspiracy of corrupt cops/spies/pols. Endeavor one-upped that by combining 2 mobs into one last week.

You'd think a successful series could afford to attract better new writers, but they seem to run out of gas or jump the shark. Midsomer and Murdoch are two exceptions.

Jaq said...

The problem with Friends is that it’s a lost propaganda opportunity.

rhhardin said...

I can't watch the British office because it's too burdensome to sort out what they are saying in those accents (and I love Ricky Gervais, but even so...).

I always use subtitles, English or Foreign films. I bailed out of British Office because it was too stupid to watch in the first episode.

Gervais is great in Ghost Town (2008) though.

Jaq said...

I bailed on The Office first episode too. I am sure it gets. better, but I don’t have the patience.

A Netflix movie I just enjoyed was “Lay the Favorite.” Laslo would like this line: “You’re not one of those girls with a sick relationship with your father, are you?”

“Oh no! My daddy’s my best friend, we do everything together!"

Narayanan said...

,,,I wonder if the cozy roommate situation of "Friends" is part of the appeal.,,

I remember reading about their apartment(s) being rent controlled ?

So fantasy within fantasy as safespace!

Good luck exploring Galaxy, don't plan round trip?

Narayanan said...

Did Seinfeld also involve Rent Control? Concealed from audience or open discussion?

gilbar said...

“Lay the Favorite.”

I great movie about the way things used to be; here's my favorite lines
{sitting on the roof tanning, the hot red head reaches for the baby oil, and the naive girl says:}

"Baby Oil? Why don't you use sunscreen" , and the hot redhead says:
"Uh, because it Screens, the Sun?!?!?"

Things were more fun, back in the day

CWJ said...

"ex post facto revisionism"

"It's like deja vu all over again."

It bore repeating.

Rory said...

"Did Seinfeld also involve Rent Control? Concealed from audience or open discussion?"

They don't talk specifically about Jerry's apartment. Elaine a couple of times is foiled in attempts to slide into a rent-controlled apartment.

FredwinaD said...

I have a 22 year old and 25 year old, and I can vouch that their generation loves Friends and The Office. I understand it completely because I find both shows to be hilarious. I love how some people pronounce that a certain TV show isn't funny because *they didn't laugh at it - as if that's the determining factor. There are millions of people who find Friends and The Office funny, so I'd say it's pretty safe to say they're funny by most standards. Plus, I don't think either show is particularly dated because the plots are based on relatively universal situations. So what's not to like? It's not rocket science. Why can't people just enjoy things without the navel gazing and search for some deeper meaning.

Narayanan said...

,,,The headlines are that Netflix paid this boatload of money for rights to broadcast Friends.,,,

By any chance are the Friends name Barack and Michelle!?

Rory said...

"I remember reading about their apartment(s) being rent controlled ?"

Yeah, I think the girls live in an apartment that's officially inhabited by Monica's grandmother. The super once threatens to report them because they give him guff.

CWJ said...

"Look it. You yourself are doing revisionism. Wiki:"

Actually no. I was knee deep in demography and generational change at the time, both in college and at U. Of Chicago. I was there. It's those who came later who in effect went back to tidy things up, wrap it in a bow, and put hard dates in place. As I said above, there will be transitional periods, as so many commenters above this present comment have effectively demonstrated.

Jim Gust said...

Three words: All white cast.

A show with that characteristic will never be made again.

tcrosse said...

i>

In one of the very first episodes George is working real estate. He has found an ideal apartment for Jerry: lots of space, affordable rent, close to the park, and a beautiful masseuse for a neighbor. Jerry and George both want the apartment, but neither wants to take it from the other, so in the end they both lose out.

Francisco D said...

My oldest siblings wore “freshman beanies” when they went to college, and dressed far more formally. We late boomers were far more into grunge and rejecting that kind of shit.

There must be quite a gap between you and your older siblings. The beanie was well before my time and grunge was well past my time.

My late 60's hippie uniform was military surplus clothing.

Butkus51 said...

I found Ffriends too predictable. Meaning not funny. To each their own.

Howard said...

Blogger CWJ said... Howard, Nonetheless, you're still part of the pig in the python regardless of how you self identify.

Just like my kids on the *wrong-side* of the Millennial cut-off ~1982.

MBunge said...

"And we know this by using money as a proxy for popularity."

Dude, just give it up. I know the contrarian appeal of thinking you are the smartest guy in the room but you need to understand when you are proving the exact opposite. Money as a proxy for popularity only works for analogous items. If someone is willing to pay $5,000 for a used car but unwilling to pay $5,000 for a prostitute, that does not prove they like automobiles more than sex.

Is Netflix paying $80 million for the rights to "The Mindy Project?" "New Girl?" "Cheers?" "Mad Men?" "Breaking Bad?" Not according to the article, which is premised on Netflix paying an inusually high amount for reruns of a show that ended 15 years ago. You have no evidence that premise is incorrect.

The second element is WHY Netflix is paying that unusually high amount. The explanation offered is that "Friends" is oddly popular among 20somethings. You have no evidence that explanation is incorrect and your logic disputing it seems to boil down to "people watch other shows too." While technically true, that's a non sequitur which doesn't actually prove anything.

Mike

Narr said...

Thanks YH and buwaya for your comments. It doesn't matter much to me what the performance practice was--the parts were written for the high registers, and they are sexy.

It's funny that Handel's most familiar vocal music is Messiah, when he wrote, as noted, so much that was not liturgical or religious. I'm partial to the Kozena/Minkowski Cantatas, especially Tra le fiamme (libretto by the Cardinal Ruspoli iirc).

Unlike Bach to my knowledge, Handel wrote for the top singers of his day; he was a showman in a way Old Bach never had to be.

Narr
Chappelle and K&P are funnier than any ten sitcoms from the last 30 years, combined

rhhardin said...

Allegri
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3v9unphfi0

spectacular soprano 1:37

Caldwell P. Titcomb IV said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Guildofcannonballs said...

I think The Crack Emcee liked Stanley from The Office so people here don't like The Office because of that and that alone.

Very sad.

I used to think it was because of the blackface scene but not anymore, not after what I've read here.

CWJ said...

Howard,

Exactly. Have good evening!

rhhardin said...

Just watched Spring Tide (Springfloden 2016), very high production values, interesting characters. Sort of the girl with the dragon tattoo without the violence and broader sweep. 10 episodes which I gather constitute season 1. Subtitles. 430 minutes so it's not as pricey as it looks, per hour.

The plot itself in the grand overall sweep isn't the interest but the details of where you are as you go along.

William said...

I guess Handel believed in God, but Bach really, really believed in God. It's sort of like the difference between Leonard Cohen and Alison Krause.....I wonder how long before Friends becomes dated and politically incorrect. There's some fat shaming as I recall. How long before that becomes unacceptable. There's one transgendered character, and she's treated not as a brave heroine exploring and expanding sex roles in our repressive society but rather they play up the comic potential of such a change. They'll probably have to drop those episodes......I caught an old Mary Tyler Moore show the other night. It was okay but nowhere near as good as I remembered. Comedy wrinkles quicker than tragedy. The sitcom elements in Falstaff aren't so funny anymore. The poetry is still great though......There's some poetry in Gleason, Chaplain, and Keaton.

Matt Harris said...

The son of a friend of mine is 12 years old, and he loves Friends.

FullMoon said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
todd galle said...

I was born in 1964, my wife a little earlier, and I don't quite know where we fit in the great 'generation ?' equation. I will say that we did enjoy 'Friends' when it was aired. I think on Thursday evening in our area. Almost necessary to watch, I think it replaced 'Cheers' in our pantheon of TV watching.

Mark said...

Friends has always been a horrid, wretched show with no redeeming qualities, every one of the characters -- especially the guys -- totally awful people. Worse yet, there have been so many copycats -- How I Met Your Mother, Big Bang Theory, et al.

Friends is another reason why no one should ever wonder why or how #MeToo could happen. The characters on that show had sex with a different person practically every episode.

Narayanan said...

,,,,The plot itself in the grand overall sweep isn't the interest but the details of where you are as you go along.,,,

I call movie with exotic location : cheap touring

Is that what you mean?

Henry said...

Mike -- The oddly popular show is still negligible in the scheme of all the entertainment options.

Rory said...

"The son of a friend of mine is 12 years old, and he loves Friends."

Can't imagine why.

todd galle said...

To be fair, we didn't have much money, and had kids, so our entertainment opportunities were limited. We still have so many board games...that we still use when the kids are here on a weekend night (Clue is still House favourite although we started Dixit). We also loved 'Who's Line Is It Anyway', but I forget what years they aired.

Aussie Pundit said...

.. 'Friends'... acts as a soothing gateway to a time when people aren’t constantly looking at their phones. They sit on their Central Perk sofas and just talk, maintaining eye-contact.

Those sentences got me smack between the eyes. I'd forgotten. Yes! That's how it used to be.

Marcus Bressler said...

I had pretty much stopped watching broadcast TV during that time frame and never watched an episode of Friends. I get tainted by reviews sometimes (Lay The Favorite is only 19% on Rotten Tomatoes) but wind up later watching and regretting allowing that to help form my decision. I had just gotten sober when Friends came on the air and so was at a meeting every Thursday night. In the past year I watched a few episodes in a row with my granddaughter and I found them mildly amusing. To each their own. I could never get into watching a show once a week at a certain time slot and never liked DVRing. So I find series on Prime and Netflix and binge watch once I decide they are sponge-worthy.

THEOLDMAN

Yes, I watched Seinfield religiously. My parents liked it and I would sit with them and laugh laugh laugh.

stephen cooper said...

William, good comment. I have always been deeply bothered by the sitcom "Friends", even though it was well written at times


- the big problem with the sitcom "Friends", from a Christian perspective, is that it was a story about 6 people who all had the ability to make wonderful and fertile people of the opposite sex fall in love with them, who all could have gotten married to a wonderful spouse in the first episode of the first year ---- and have lived wonderful lives ....
and they all, for purposes of entertaining hoi polloi, chose to ride a carousel of pleasure, hundreds of loveless dates, rather than simply and honestly looking for the best possible parent to their future children, for year after year . Sad !
Sad in so many ways, broken hearts all around, played for laughs. In real life that is very harsh.

To be fair, I was no big fan of the Honeymooners or of "I Love Lucy" either.

Gilligan's Island and even the Addams Family and the Munsters got it right, we should all treat each other with grateful and friendly respect.

and who does not remember poor sad "Trapper John", the humble sidekick of poor selfish alpha male "Hawkeye' Alan Alda, from M*A*S*H*, and his endless moaning about how much he missed his wife, and how the fact that he missed his wife was more important than all the shenanigans and good times that the lovable bunch from M*A*S*H* was having while American teenage males and American men in their twenties were dying in their tens of thousands?
He was on the right track, in his way ....

Comanche Voter said...

I'm hard pressed to bring myself to watch television at all. So I can't say that I've seen "Friends" or "The Office".

But what in the world is wrong with longing for sincerity and friendship? Being something of an alpha male, friends are few, but cherished. As for sincerity, I can't abide a liar. I Billy Jeff Clinton pointed a finger in my face (well on TV) and said, "I did not have sex with that woman", he was dead to me forever. I can and do accept foibles in my friends (and none of them are on TV--I prefer the real live ones) but I can not accept dishonesty.

FullMoon said...

Friends has always been a horrid, wretched show with no redeeming qualities, every one of the characters -- especially the guys -- totally awful people

Now I gotta watch it...

Jaq said...

By the time Kurt Cobain came out with “grunge” we were almost over it. I remember uttering a derisive snort when I first read about it. Since our cohort didn’t have a label, it didn’t have a name during our time. But you wouldn’t have been able to tell it from grunge except that everything we wore was dirt cheap, and maybe grunge included designer labels, or whatever, IDK.

stlcdr said...

Cheers. Taxi. WRKP. Every generation has their soap opera-like tv show which they become emotionally attached to. Following generations rediscover these things.

It’s probably always been this way. Nothing to get bent out of shape over. Because it’ll happen again. Enjoy the fact that a generation is (re)discovering an interesting piece of tv history.

stephen cooper said...

Sorry it was BJ Hunnicut, not Trapper John, who was the loyal and subservient sidekick to the star of the show who wanted to cheat on his wife when he was not crying about missing her

Sad!

Lucky for him he was not my son-in-law

Marc in Eugene said...

Spent part of the morning after Mass trying to find a complete recording of Handel's Arianna in Creta-- there is the George Patrou/Orchestra of Patras recording ("underpowered", according to one critic) and then evidently one can enquire at the Göttingen Festival offices and perhaps be directed to someone who sells the CD of their 1999 production (McGegan/Philharmonia Baroque). None of the five streaming services I checked provide access to either one or the other or both. It finally occurred to me to look at YouTube and in fact someone has uploaded what appears to be a pirate of the Rousset/Les Talens Lyriques production of 2002 (Halle Festival, Beaune Festival, Vienna). A second recording is there, too, but I couldn't figure out anything about it. Anyway, the moment passed so it's for tomorrow evening, after work.

Known Unknown said...

"TV programming has taken such a low road over the last decade,"

Uh, it's the opposite. This may be the golden age of TV. (Maybe not Network TV)

stephen cooper said...

ARIANE MA SOEUR DE QUEL AMOUR BLESSEE
VOUS MOURUTES AUX BORDS OU VOUS FUTES LAISSEE

EVEN BACK IN THE DAY, WHEN WE DID NOT KNOW THAT NONE OF US WERE DESCENDED FROM THE GREEK GODS
IT WAS NOT A GOOD IDEA TO FALL IN LOVE WITH ARROGANT PEOPLE

ARROGANCE IS INCOMMENSURATE WITH THE BEST TRAITS HUMANS CAN HAVE

Rory said...

"...they all, for purposes of entertaining hoi polloi, chose to ride a carousel of pleasure, hundreds of loveless dates, rather than simply and honestly looking for the best possible parent to their future children, for year after year ."

One of the problems with shows based around these on again/off again relationships is that about the second time a couple is broken even up even their closest friends would pull back from because they're just too crazy. After a while, it's like the writers hate the characters.

The only one of these storylines that actually worked was Cheers, and that was only because Shelley Long infamously left the show in pursuit of a movie career.

effinayright said...

I Callahan said...
Anyone know of a radio station that plays only "oldies" rap and hip-hop music?

SiriusXM Backspin
******************************

YAY! So there's ONE.

stephen cooper said...

Rory - good point,


I always assumed that Shelley Long had a good life off-screen, I never actually researched it, but I hope she did.

Guildofcannonballs said...

If one believes one's writing is separate from themselves that can be considered right and proper and necessary for certain creation of art etc.

But to claim what you write over decades is limited when writing like our Host Google knows people do is weird.

And I'm a weirdo you know, so I know.

I just know.

Extremes: The best artists have exposed themselves to an extent others are uncapable of doing but over-capable of understanding how it ought be done best.

All worthless, dust dust dumb-dust dust, duh.

I am that sweet spot: no respect for talent, vast or not, wasted. It ain't nothin' like perseverance. You know what Cal meant: you know:

"Nothing in this world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not: nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not: the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent."

And you can be me for free, like everything the rich don't hoard from us, the working-at-workin' types, typing away every day just working-at-workin'. Just support the Salvation Army already, will ya?

funsize said...

I never cared for "Friends". Then again, I find most sitcoms so unrealistic as to be completely unrelateable.

Guildofcannonballs said...

Seems legit. Golf.com is a big name in the golf community.

Not that you Trumpkins know anything about golf!

https://www.golf.com/golf-plus/behind-kim-jong-ils-famous-round-golf

"With the U.S. Open fast approaching at a famously penal course in the Pittsburgh area, I’d like to set the record straight on one of history’s most astounding rounds of golf, an achievement so outlandish it could pass as myth.

No, I’m not thinking what you think I’m thinking, which should come as a relief, since Johnny Miller’s closing 63 at Oakmont in 1973 has been picked over to death.

The round I have in mind took place in a setting far more punishing than any Open venue, and the 18-hole tally makes Miller’s sizzling score look like a number posted by a weekend chop. I’m referring to—what else?—the 38-under-par 34 reportedly fired by the late North Korean despot Kim Jong Il, a man known to his people as Dear Leader and to you and me as Dear Top-the-Leader Board. According to official North Korean state accounts, Kim’s round, the first he’d ever played, was highlighted by five aces."

The Sweet Spot with Bill Murray and me series could solve a lot of these problems.

Yeah, yeah he's getting old and smells: I respect my elders fer fucksakes.

Guildofcannonballs said...

Some fuck up in here I 'pose got me to order Gus.

Russo.

So I got me in the mail Brothers In Arms or some shit. Holy shit.

Total blubbery progs, but with facts they spend pages and pages and pages to explain, like we don't fucking all know: Progs will kill again like they always have for power.

The power to kill is paramont.

Because then more power, you FUCKING DUMMY.

Argue with them how states rights really help the disenfranchised because Von Mises and Lud. Hy. and all the Austrians at the U. Chicago like Uncle Milt really have your best interest in mind.

Lose.

Don't drag anybody down with you though. Ever. Not Ever. Again. NEVER.

Guildofcannonballs said...

Fucking dummy is interesting because sex robots are now hip.


So who is the dummy, the one fucking the robot or the robot?

That's the twist.

Who'se dummy whose resemblance to Scarlet Johannsan is uncanny assaulted my sleep position in order to gain access to my penis, unwarranted?" Who programmed it and why?

My penis is insured for 10". I've got documentation that proves it. Anybody says otherwise is mad because I just didn't trust the smell of her coke so took a couple of extra safety sniffs to make sure everybody would be okay.

Martyr me if you will, I know when my losing hand has been dealt.

I always heavily identified with Mr. Walter Sobjckzek as played by Mr. John Goodman.

The Enterprise World said...

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Jaq said...

“Lay The Favorite is only 19% on Rotten Tomatoes”

The jokes were kind of subtle and the ending seemed kind of contrived, but 19% seems kind of low.

Sam L. said...

Never watched it. Not my age group; not my interests.

Bilwick said...

Every time I see an online article (or a link to it) like this, I click on knowing someone is going to write about whatever show is under discussion, "Never watched it" (as if, for some reason, the rest of us should care). And bazinga!--I click on here, and there's Sam L., right there, with "Never watched it." Sam L. does add an interesting other comment: "Not my age group, not my interests." I'm curious: are you so narrow and cocooned that only shows dealing with your own age group are worth looking at? Or that the characters in them have only your interests? Odd.

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