I wanted to post on this news and just wanted something factual and journalistic, and I was disappointed that the 2 main newspapers I read just put up this rather thin AP story:
A jury in Lorain County awarded David Gibson, son Allyn Gibson and Gibson’s Bakery, of Oberlin, $33 million in punitive damages Thursday. That comes on top of an award a day earlier of $11 million in compensatory damages.
Problems between the Gibsons, their once-beloved bakery and the college began in November 2016 after Allyn Gibson, who is white, confronted a black Oberlin student who had shoplifted wine. Two other black students joined in and assaulted Gibson, police said.The extra space between "bakery" and the period is present at both the WaPo and the NYT. That's how little attention they paid to this story — not even rudimentary copy editing.
The day after the arrests, hundreds of students protested outside the bakery .
Members of Oberlin College’s student senate published a resolution saying Gibson’s had “a history of racial profiling and discriminatory treatment.”A direct quote — "snowflakes" — for those "conservatives." Which conservatives? Who? Did they all say the word "snowflakes"? Were they all taking a derisive tone? This is a story about the seriousness of damage caused by free-swinging attacks, so you might want to rein it in. Notice the students were concerned about "systemic racism" and their tone isn't characterized nastily, but they were involved in causing harm that the jury soberly examined and found deserving of a $33 million punitive damages award. And conservatives are casually smeared, made to look like they get on social media and jeer and name-call.
When news of the protests spread online, bikers and counterprotesters soon converged on the town to jeer students and make purchases from Gibson’s. Conservatives derided the students on social media as coddled “snowflakes” with a mob mentality, while students attacked the store as a symbol of systemic racism....
The AP article ends with a grab-bag of factoids:
Oberlin has long been a bastion of liberalism. During the 1830s, it became one of the first colleges to admit blacks and women. During the 1850s, it became a stop on the Underground Railroad.
Today, about 15% of Oberlin’s 8,300 residents are black.And there's your NYT and WaPo coverage of this story. Thin, undigested AP material. And you won't find it on the home page. I had to do a search to find it.
More recently, news articles quoted students decrying the school dining hall’s sushi and Vietnamese banh mi sandwiches as cultural appropriation.
The Gibsons’ attorneys said the college, which charges $70,000 a year for tuition and room and board, has an $887 million endowment and can easily afford to pay the family what they are owed.
Oberlin’s tree-lined campus is roughly 35 miles (56 kilometers) southwest of downtown Cleveland.
IN THE COMMENTS: wendybar said:
The best coverage anywhere was from Professor William A. Jacobson @ Legal Insurrection!! The Main Stream Media is the propaganda arm of the Democrats so of course this doesn't fit the agenda.Here's the Legal Insurrection post about the punitive damages verdict. Excerpt:
“We never wanted any of this to go to court and have to spend all this time in litigation,” David Gibson said exclusively to the Legal Insurrection. David Gibson is the lead plaintiff in the case and is the principal owner of the business.Left Bank of the Charles said:
“People have no idea on how much stress this has had on our family and business for almost three years. But from the beginning, we just didn’t understand why they were punishing us for something we had nothing to do with.”
“We appreciate that the jury understood what we had gone through, and I think they were saying to the entire country that we can’t allow this to happen to hard-working, small business people whose lives are defined by their business, their family, and their community,” he said.” What the college was doing was trying to take away all those things from us, and we fought hard against that.”
Here’s some better reporting. The college seems to have thought that claims of poverty would work in its defense against the punitive damages.He links to "Gibson's Bakery v. Oberlin College: Plaintiffs rest in second day of punitive phase (UPDATED)" (Houston Chronicle):
With its endowment as it is now," [Oberlin President Carmen Twillie Ambar] said the college can survive, but “survival isn’t sustainability”.... Of that $1.4 billion, the college has an $887 million endowment — more than two-thirds of which can’t be spent by the college because of the wishes of the donors who provided it... The largest check the college could write if it had to would be for $49.1 million from its unrestricted endowment funds....
[Lee Plakas, the lead attorney for the Gibsons] told jurors that “defamatory words in our country have become weapons as damaging as guns that shoot bullets”... “More damaging than bullets once you’re defamed... There is no procedure to remove those words.”...
He recalled for jurors how Oberlin College administrators labeled the Gibsons and their supporters “idiots,” discussed in internal texts and emails how they wanted to “unleash the students” or “rain fire and brimstone” on Gibson’s and how Meredith Raimondo, the college’s vice president and dean of students, referred to the college’s business with Gibson’s as the “stupid bakery order.”...
“Let’s teach the institution not to put gas on the fires,” Plakas told the jury, also asking them to consider recommending Miraldi award the Gibsons money to cover attorney fees. “They’re not above the law. They can’t make up their own rules.”...
Posts
305 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 305 of 305wwww - We all know you're a leftwing stooge. congrats.
It's a big story because employees of the school actively participated in a fraud against a private business. That fraud, the lies, the libel and coordinated harassment by a top Oberlin employee, led to a private business suffering brutal financial losses including many people losing their jobs.
Are you OK with that?
If I'm donating to a University, you better believe I will stipulate where it will be paid. I am not going to allow the University to decide they know better than I what my wishes are.
Imagine giving to Oberlin only to find your money has gone to pay to settle a lawsuit because an administrator was a dick.
wwww...I guess you've led a sheltered life since you seem to think nobody outside of Ohio has heard of Oberlin.
This humble graduate of a state college (West Georgia College class of '74) knew of it long before the internet came along.
And, funnily, I'd also heard of Amherst....and Vassar...and Utica.
Come down off your elitist pedestal, we deplorables keep up too.
@wwww: I take your point. There are bigger stories. Can you explain to me why a high school student with a smirk was such a big story? I'd be grateful for any clarity you could offer on this disparity. Thanking you in advance.
The students who protested about the store were not making adequate progress toward behaving like adults with higher educations.
Before they passed their resolutions and protested in front of the store, they failed to examine the racism accusations in accordance with a higher education. The students behaved like a vulgar, uneducated mob.
Oberlin did not take effective action to correct and guide its foolish young students in this situation. On the contrary, administrators coddled and encouraged the stupidity.
Of course, Oberlin made expensive mistakes by employing and failing to control those particular administrators.
More generally, Oberlin should have disciplined the students' ringleaders. Oberlin's own reputation was being spoiled by the student mob that was being incited by the ringleaders.
The ringleaders should have been warned that they would be expelled if they persisted. And then, if they did persist, they should have been expelled. The ringleaders never would learn to behave like adults with higher educations, and so Oberlin's further investment in their education would be a wasted effort.
emancipation, suffrage, and temperance
Same three issues that concerned my grandfather, born 1870. He was also religiously active, among other things being smuggled into a meeting of blacks in Texas in the bottom of a wagon so that he could preach to them.
"But to expect national coverage of this story, is a little much"
Once you acknowledge that campus protests are a national phenomenon the expectation of national coverage is pretty reasonable.
This ruling was significant in that a college was held liable for enabling defamation. When the Dean of Students was caught writing “I’d say unleash the students if I wasn’t convinced this needs to be put behind us,” she was revealing a tactic used by college administrators across the nation.
this is interesting
,,, In early 2018, according to Plakas (lawyer for Gibson), two days of talks with a mediator were done, but nothing close to a settlement was achieved. In fact, the talks were initiated by the Gibson’s and “We were ready, willing and able to not have this case go to trial, but Oberlin College and their insurance company seemed to have no interest in settling this case,” Plakas said.,,,
I am wondering how much Oberlin was hiding from their insurance company (Lexington - member of AIG )
The insurer that covers Oberlin College for liability, Lexington Insurance Company, filed documents with court last month indicating that its umbrella liability policy would not cover costs of any judgment for the plaintiffs. ... Lexington likely won’t pay and Oberlin would have to sue for reimbursement.
How long 'til she resigns?
Wouldn't the time to urge her resignation have been before the trial, during a settlement? Although she may leave just to start her racket anew at a different school, which she surely would.
RCP
Why Are the Western Middle Classes So Angry?
By Victor Davis Hanson
"...Three, unelected bureaucrats multiplied and vastly increased their power over private citizens. The targeted middle classes lacked the resources to fight back against the royal armies of tenured regulators, planners, auditors, inspectors and adjustors who could not be fired and were never accountable.
Four, the new global media reached billions and indoctrinated rather than reported.
Five, academia became politicized as a shrill agent of cultural transformation rather than focusing on education -- while charging more for less learning.
Six, utopian social planning increased housing, energy and transportation costs.
One common gripe framed all these diverse issues: The wealthy had the means and influence not to be bothered by higher taxes and fees or to avoid them altogether. Not so much the middle classes, who lacked the clout of the virtue-signaling rich and the romance of the distant poor.
In other words, elites never suffered the firsthand consequences of their own ideological fiats.
https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2019/06/13/why_are_the_western_middle_classes_so_angry_140551.html
The Oberlin matter seems to be an exception.
“Same three issues that concerned my grandfather, born 1870. He was also religiously active, among other things being smuggled into a meeting of blacks in Texas in the bottom of a wagon so that he could preach to them.”
Not technically identical, since by then, black slaves had been emancipated. But very equivalent.
I am not sure if I would have backed temperance from a religious point of view. I expect that it was an outgrowth of the New England Puritan influence. Just surprised that they (apparently) stopped at not banning dance, along with Demon Rum. My view is that it is not up to me to legally get prevent sinning by others. I can see both sides of Suffrage, esp in retrospect- I just don’t think that women, on average, make as good of decisions in the voting booth as men do (of course, some women, noticing my gender, may believe me to be biased there). But it was in dealing with Blacks in this country, before and after their emancipation, that I find the easiest Christian justification for change. To this day, I still cannot understand the moral, Christian, justification for either generational slavery or Jim Crow treatment of Blacks in this country.
Yancey Ward: The laws against shoplifting are just a manifestation of the White Patriarchy.
This seems to me to be the not too subtle sub-text of the "progressive" movement. That is, to re-calibrate the scale upon which we judge actions to be illegal, and ultimately, loosen those laws. In this case, a student was caught shoplifting. The prevailing feeling at Oberlin seems to be that taking action against shoplifters is inappropriate; maybe even de-facto racisim.
To me, it looks like anarchy.
@wwww, Oberlin is Lena Dunham’s alma mater, and she’s publicized it, painting a picture of the campus as a haven for the extreme left. ThT’s how most of us are aware of it.
In other words: Oberlin is more similar to a small elite prep school then to a University -- from the size to the coddling administrative attention of the students. It's not a major public University with public interests at stake. It's interesting in the way that Fitzgerald found rich people interesting. Interesting, odd stories.
Yeah , the real outrage about this case isn't the actions of the university and the students, it's the fact that Republicans have pounced on this and are using it to smear the Left.
wwww said...
...Remember, the majority of the US population did not graduate college...Many will see it as a "town vs. gown" and of little interest.
I find it interesting that when you tell us who might be interested in a "town vs. gown" story, you only consider the "gown" side, and completely ignore the majority who would likely side with the town. People who didn't go to college, but lived near one. People who owned or managed a business, and had to deal with shoplifters, vandals, and other miscreants. People who can readily imagine their livelihood destroyed for doing nothing more than trying to provide for their families.
wwww wouldn't be so blase about C-Suite executives at a local privately held for-profit corporation with assets in excess of $1B encouraging and facilitating their customer base in protests of a small family bakery.
See the totalitarianism inherent in the Collectivist Left.
wwww assures it's just a local story.
Like the Holodomor.
Where are the Leftists discussing freedom?
/sarc
Birkel: wwww insists that the reaction of the jurors to her preferred Leftist behavior is a non-story.
11:30 pm Nov 3rd 2020
wwww: "I just don't understand this country. How could this have happened? A 40 state blowout? I don't know anyone who voted for Trump!"
@CJinPA, where did you find that quote? I remembered reading it but when I tried to look it up this morning I got zip. Pretty chilling to realize that the imagine that the Oberlin administration regarded their students as a tool they could dispatch at will to attack local businesses and private citizen the way a Medieval lord might send a hawk after a pigeon.
I also think the Dean of Students tried to get cute on the witness stand and it blew up. Someone had testified that she had personally handed him a flyer during the protests and she denied it. Then she was forced to fall back on saying words to the effect that she didn’t recollect handing a flyer to that particular person. Having served on juries myself, I can imagine how the Ohio jury felt about that.
I think they should change Madison to something more befitting it's uber woke status, like Zinoviev or Guevara, Oberlin is like that's free university in berlin, except for the cost,
"Point of parliamentary procedure!"
Is it correct to say "Pleaded guilty" or "Pled guilty".
The former seems quite awkward to me.
ancey Ward: The laws against shoplifting are just a manifestation of the White Patriarchy.
This seems to me to be the not too subtle sub-text of the "progressive" movement. That is, to re-calibrate the scale upon which we judge actions to be illegal, and ultimately, loosen those laws. In this case, a student was caught shoplifting. The prevailing feeling at Oberlin seems to be that taking action against shoplifters is inappropriate; maybe even de-facto racisim.
To me, it looks like anarchy.
It sounds like the NYC effect. A right of passage, something to accept for living in NYC.
Can I walk in their dorms and steal their stuff?
wwww @ 8:57 AM
There's no video from this story.
Yes, there is. Oberlin College to Jury: We’re cash poor and big punitive award to Gibson’s Bakery will hurt students. At the bottom of the article: "[Featured Image: Oberlin Police Body Cam Video of Gibson’s Bakery Shoplifting Arrests."The link takes you to YouTube.
Oberlin Police body cam video (Gibson's Bakery)
The Chronicle-Telegram, a newspaper from Elyria, Ohio, also linked to the video.
wwww @ 8:03
Oberlin is a small private college somewhere in suburban Ohio that serves less then 3,000 students. Meanwhile, there are 1 million people in Hong Kong protesting China's power. The second story, there should be coverage. The first story is of little interest to the general population, aside from those who who know others who have attended Oberlin.
If you don't like what Ann Althouse covers, perhaps you should stop reading her posts.
Oberlin is not as obscure as you claim. There were three Nobel Prize winners who were Oberlin graduates.
“We were ready, willing and able to not have this case go to trial, but Oberlin College and their insurance company seemed to have no interest in settling this case,” Plakas said..."
If the University was offered by its insurance carrier a settlement amount the University is screwed. If the insurer refused to offer a settlement the insurer is screwed. I can see Plaska joining with Oberlin in a dec action against the insurance company. Tell Mickey it's not personal. it's just business.
wwww
But to expect national coverage of this story, is a little much"
Legal Insurrection blog was the only nationally based news outlet that covered the story. I read the LI coverage from 2016 on. I considered the lawsuit important because the lawsuit was a rare example of push-back against the SJW mentality permeating our campuses. Apparently you did not consider that important.
On the other hand the result of the trial- a judgment in excess of $30 million would be rather newsworthy. The Washington Post considered it newsworthy.
You complained about Althouse covering such a "trivial" event. Have you complained to the Washington Post about its covering such a "trivial" event? Inquiring minds want to know.
If the college was trying to force the bakery to ignore shoplifting, isn't that a criminal conspiracy? Maybe RICO? They sound like mobsters to me.
Big Mike at 1:02 PM
... the Oberlin administration regarded their students as a tool they could dispatch at will to attack local businesses and private citizen the way a Medieval lord might send a hawk after a pigeon.
LOL
This award will have far more effect on the lives of Americans than the Hong Kong issue. Watch and see which is still relevant over the next year.
False claims of racism can destroy a business (e.g. Gipson bakery) or a sports team (e.g., Duke Lacrosse) or a reputation (see Covington kids).
What about non-false claims of racism, whatever that means? It certainly doesn't mean what the OED documents the word meant when it first appeared in print, i.e. to hold the belief that members of a race have certain moral or intellectual traits in common. Freedom of conscience is within the penumbra of several constitutionally guaranteed freedoms, including freedom of speech and freedom of assembly. Are we not entitled to objectionable opinions? Why isn't Oberlin liable to criminal charges under the terms of the Civil Rights Act?
@wwww: I take your point. There are bigger stories. Can you explain to me why a high school student with a smirk was such a big story? I'd be grateful for any clarity you could offer on this disparity. Thanking you in advance.
Bingo !
The culture war was pretty one sided until now. Covington is going to have a huge judgement,. This is only the first battle and Oberlin thought they were too powerful for a local bakery, Now the two black law professors at Harvard who were fired, are going to go public.
Harvard hid behind supposed performance reviews that Sullivan and Robinson were poor deans at Winthrop.
Possible, but I don’t believe it. Sullivan and Robinson are starting to speak out, starting with this 6-minute video explaining bluntly why their treatment is a travesty of liberal values. Worth watching all the way through, and at the end they say they will have more to say about all of this. I hope this means they will join the ranks of chastened liberals and progressives like Bret Weinstein, and increase the pressure and shame on the craven cowards who run higher education.
That Masterpiece Cake Shop will find a lawyer who will shoot the wounded as the case ends up.
It's going to get messy. 4w had better plan to stay home for the next year or so.
Dust Bunny Queen said...
Mark said Oberlin is well-regarded, especially for its music program. It won't close down; Oberlin has ample resources.
No they don't. What resources do YOU think they have?
Oberlin has an endowment of nearly $900 million. It has the money. Oberlin may very well have to liquidate some holdings, but it's not like the judgment is a net 30 day invoice.
"We're cash poor and big settlement to the Gibson's Bakery will hurt students."
I certainly hope so. College is suppose to teach you stuff, so some learning is appropriate, but I doubt there will be any.
The faster the democrat propaganda media is bankrupt, the better. They truly are an enemy of the country. Go out of business faster please.
Mark said: Oberlin has an endowment of nearly $900 million. It has the money
Mark. That doesn't mean what you think it does. I suggest you re-read Althous's post
With its endowment as it is now," [Oberlin President Carmen Twillie Ambar] said the college can survive, but “survival isn’t sustainability”.... Of that $1.4 billion, the college has an $887 million endowment — more than two-thirds of which can’t be spent by the college because of the wishes of the donors who provided it... The largest check the college could write if it had to would be for $49.1 million from its unrestricted endowment funds....
Also the remarks in this very thread regarding Entailed or specific purpose endowments. Also on how Oberlin can and cannot raise funds.
Justice would be fired administrators, cuts in pay, and increases in tuition. At least that's what would happen if racism is really a serious offence.
Let's be clear, these bakery people were only treated this way because of the color of their skin. It's impossible to deny that vicious racism which was proudly and openly expressed.
Mark said: Oberlin has an endowment of nearly $900 million. It has the money
Mark. That doesn't mean what you think it does. I suggest you re-read Althous's post
With its endowment as it is now," [Oberlin President Carmen Twillie Ambar] said the college can survive, but “survival isn’t sustainability”.... Of that $1.4 billion, the college has an $887 million endowment — more than two-thirds of which can’t be spent by the college because of the wishes of the donors who provided it... The largest check the college could write if it had to would be for $49.1 million from its unrestricted endowment funds....
Also the remarks in this very thread regarding Entailed or specific purpose endowments. Also on how Oberlin can and cannot raise funds.
I read the post. If it comes down to it, Oberlin can raise the money. The wishes of the donors will be more fungible than Oberlin lets on. If the choice is between the wishes of the donor and the survival of the institution, the donors are not going to pull their money. Oberlin will have to change its ways going forward, which is a good thing.
If the choice is between the wishes of the donor and the survival of the institution, the donors are not going to pull their money.
You understand that the IRS is in the very middle of these decisions? People who have taken tax deductions in previous years/decades can't just easily decide to change their minds. Even if they could just take the money, land, etc back....the reversal will cost Oberlin more money.
Some of those donors are dead. Their heirs are not. They may want the money back and screw Oberlin.
Oberlin can try to raise money by selling bonds. However the coupon will have to be very high to compensate buyers for the default risk that Oberlin presents. I wouldn't sell an Oberlin bond to any of MY customers.
The best outcome would be for Oberlin to liquidate and just go away.
Dust Bunny Queen said...
If the choice is between the wishes of the donor and the survival of the institution, the donors are not going to pull their money.
You understand that the IRS is in the very middle of these decisions? People who have taken tax deductions in previous years/decades can't just easily decide to change their minds. Even if they could just take the money, land, etc back....the reversal will cost Oberlin more money.
I understand all of that. It's trouble for Oberlin, but it's not insurmountable.
Some of those donors are dead. Their heirs are not. They may want the money back and screw Oberlin.
Oberlin is a lefty school and always has been. Donors to Oberlin understood that. Their heirs, assuming they still have control of the money, are more likely to be even more lefty than the original donors. And if they want their money back, it will probably require litigation to claw the gifts back, too. It's a potential scenario, but not the most likely one.
Oberlin can try to raise money by selling bonds. However the coupon will have to be very high to compensate buyers for the default risk that Oberlin presents. I wouldn't sell an Oberlin bond to any of MY customers.
I'm glad to hear that. I wouldn't want to buy one.
Way back when, when I made my first comment, my main point was that this verdict is really a warning for less well-heeled liberal arts colleges/SJW factories, including my alma mater. The verdict is going to hurt Oberlin badly. A similar verdict would kill most of the liberal arts colleges in the Midwest. About the only schools who could survive a verdict of this sort are places like Oberlin, Grinnell, Carleton, and Macalester.
the bullying Left likes to pick on small, obscure targets
(mom-&-pop businesses, high school kids, bakeries,etc)
but when caught,
asks why are you concerned about these small, obscure stories?
and what's with the constant beef about pizza joints/bakeries?
Are they trying to bring down Big Flour?
Usher in a gluten-free society?
the bullying Left likes to pick on small, obscure targets
(mom-&-pop businesses, high school kids, bakeries,etc)
but when caught,
asks why are you concerned about these small, obscure stories?
and what's with the constant beef about pizza joints/bakeries?
Are they trying to bring down Big Flour?
Usher in a gluten-free society?
""Amazon also terminated their affiliate program with Legal Insurrection, so they are relying on donations for funding."
Sorry, but Legal Insurrection is right there with Powerline - they talk alot about free speech and deplatforming, but they also practice it.
Powerline will ban you for criticizing how Paul bring his NeverTrumper derangement into the most unrelated topics.
"Fuzzy Slippers" moderates over at LI will ban you over a petty disagreement that could have easily been resolved with a simple apology. She will even make accusations and then delete your defense against them.
Don't believe me, just file this in memory. The pattern will repeat at both sites and you'll see I was right all along.
Now that we're hearing a lot about how this award will cause Oberlin to go under, I wonder if any enterprising reporter will track down the 3 students who were guilty of shoplifting and assault to get their opinion on how their actions could destroy their school. They can't claim racism, since they specifically made a public statement that the bakery had no racism.
The fact wwww thinks this should be a local story indicates she wants it to be a local story.
Which is exactly why it should not be a local story.
There needs to be more exposure to this type of thuggery by left-wing institutions. Not less.
If Liberty University were to pull a similar stunt at a gay themed business, an abortion provider, or that goofy yoga lady from the other day, wwww would be demanding national coverage.
Oberlin has a $900 Billion endowment. Its earning $X on that endowment. So it has several options:
1) it can raise more money from its donors.
2) it can get the people who endowed money to "Unlock it" and let them use it to pay off the award.
3) It can borrow the money.
4) It can file for bankruptcy and get a Judge to demand some of the endowment $$ be used for the awards.
Given we have ZERO details on what the "donors" wanted their money to be used for, I'm not going to trust Oberlin to tell us the truth. The other question is this:
Is the principle of the Endowment guided by the donors wish? Or it the principle AND any future interest/stock market earnings guided by the donors wishes?
Over the past 20 years, the General Investment Pool has grown from $440.9 million to $887.0 million. Oberlin College’s spending and investment policies have provided substantial levels of financial support to the operating budget. The annual distributions are critical in supporting our academic mission while preserving endowment purchasing power for future generations.
Unknown said...
Sorry to disrupt the narrative, but this was in the Wapo 4 days ago...
Three days after the trial ended? I guess it takes a while for news to travel from Ohio to DC. I did several searches for news stories during the trial and found almost nothing other than LI.
There were some articles in the Chronicle Telegram (Elyria, OH). They were nice if you wanted to hear Oberlin's point of view.
If you look at Olberin's 2017 F/S you'll see they have $258 million in UNRESTRICTED ENDOWMENTS.
So yes, they have enough to pay the Bakery.
There really is a lot of material at Legal Insurrection about this issue: forty-three posts!
And the two posts I've read so far contain a lot of information.
If I were a journalist what would I do at this point? Assuming I hadn't looked into the issue before.
Well, I believe one of the first questions I would have, would be what is said of what Oberlin College did, I mean the college itself, and not the students. I would also be looking to see if there was anything else about the situation that was interesting.
So a good way to do that would be to read through all the posts and summarize.
That would be a rational thing to do. But I already I have a suspicion that just summarizing all of the questionable acts of Oberlin would be interesting and maybe even a revelation.
Now I'm not volunteering to do that. I'm taking a break from something else.
But what do I think actual journalists today do? Nothing like that.
No they are on private email lists and other private forums participating in an echo chamber of defense of all left-wing causes and eagerly conforming to one another. Definitely not thinking for themselves. And basically coming up with the party line that will be presented on TV or in the newspapers tomorrow, which by some amazing coincidence is the same everywhere. That's what I think journalism has become.
BTW, Oberlin has $250 million in "Hedge Funds" $52 million in cash, $125 in foreign stocks, and $198 million in private equity funds.
The whole story was given MINIMAL coverage by the MSM. Trump's comment on "Dirt from Foreign Countries" has been given 50x the coverage.
Now the Left is falling back on
"We've covered the story enough. its boring. Move on.org."
Ha ha ha! Oberlin didn't think it had anything to fear from the townies. Oops.
According to Oberlin they gave out $64 million in student financial aid. They have an operating income of $184 million. It should be noted that $64 million includes "Discounted tuition". IOW, they charge tuition of $50,000 a year, but for certain students they only charge $30,00 - the difference of $20,000 is marked down as Financial aid, even though no $$ changed hands.
After reading the Oberlin Financial statements, I've come to the conclusion that NO PRIVATE COLLEGE should be eligible for tax deductions. Its just a scam. These rich colleges are ROLLING IN $$, they don't need a tax deduction. Nor do they need Federal aid.
Oberlins asset allocation is somewhat like mine.
Why is an institution with that level of assets and growth in those assets charging that kind of money to have students listen to them talk? Why would a donor give them any more money? You really can't think of any better way to use it than propping some racists? At least light a few cigars with some Benjamins.
Gibson and their lawyers will walk away with multiple millions, but I doubt that they will receive the full settlement. What would you choose: twenty million tomorrow or another few years of litigation......In any event, the students who shoplifted, the administration who covered for them, and the journalists who wilfully neglected to cover the story, all look bad. The fact that they, even now, don't think they screwed up, makes them look even worse.......There was a time when Bill Cosby's reputation insulated him from harm. If he had kept the rapes down to a bare minimum,he could have gotten away with it indefinitely. But when you have several dozen women accusing you, it's hard to make a case. Something like that is going on with journalists. There's too many cases where the journalists are reporting falsely or, worse yet, failing to report at all. Their reputation is now more of a conductor than an insulator.
Elite college sics its Red Guard on a small family business, draws back a stump after $33 million judgement for libel.
Just a local story. Like Gosnell.
I'm sure none of the of SJW admins around the nation even noticed...
"The fact wwww thinks this should be a local story indicates she wants it to be a local story."
Ann asked why the story wasn't a national story. I gave my opinion. Surprised by the personal response. My opinion on news coverage is surely not that interesting.
"Ha ha ha! Oberlin didn't think it had anything to fear from the townies. Oops."
Wonder if there's a long history of town and gown issues. Oberlin is a town of 8,000 people. Not a huge place; students must be major customers, aside from the college.
For people who think I'm defending the college: I am not. The administrative behaviour was and is absurd. Don't know why the administrators responsible haven't been fired. But I don't think it's a huge national story unless you're interested in libel laws. It's a small college & it's not even a University.
I do think it means more small private colleges are going to hire full time in-house counsel. Good job opportunities, nice retirement packages, and your kids get free tuition at a private school.
The witch hunters and warlock judges are anxious. Progress.
At Gibson's Bakery they laid off employees and some family members went without salaries to keep Gibson's going during the two years it took to get to trial. Surely Oberlin students will happily make similar sacrifices such as eating cheaper meals and accepting responsibility for keeping the campus clean instead of leaving messes for the janitorial staff to clean up. And the Oberlin administration could take a pay cut. After all, the administration, tried to destroy a small business with false accusations of racism; and they did this on behalf of a shoplifter who, with his friends, beat up a sales clerk who confronted the shoplifter.
" a shoplifter who, with his friends, beat up a sales clerk who confronted the shoplifter."
Yea, that just the kind of people that grab at your heart and make you want to help them in any way you can. The good ones, who stand for peace, justice and the American way. I don;t know why anyone would see it differently.
Honestly, if my child was one of the students doing the protesting, I'd cancel all payments to them for anything and tell them: "Good luck. I failed you."
"It's going to get messy. 4w had better plan to stay home for the next year or so."
oh my goodness. I can't even with the drama. Who knew this was a hot button issue? You do realize I am amused by this judgement on Oberlin --The administrators behaved in an absurd manner. But I stand by my POV: not a major national story. Don't know why that's so triggering. So not everyone agrees with everything in lockstep. It's not the end of the world.
Oberlin: The town that started not just the first Civil War but the Second Civil War!
Leftist indoctrination center gets pummeled in court after sending stormtroopers to bankrupt private business.
Yeah, that sounds like a story that people might be interested to read.
The totalitarianism of the Left is a story.
wwww insists we ignore the totalitarianism she supports.
Collectivism can only be achieved with force.
Americans are not cattle.
But I stand by my POV: not a major national story.
And your POV is wrong. Stick with us and be educated.
And whether you choose to mark the start of the Civil War with Fort Sumter being fired upon, or whether you choose to mark it -- as some do -- with the 1860 Democrat National Convention, both were in Charleston, SC.
The ongoing smug from the Oberlin administers makes me want the see the school suffer -- or at least change leadership & direction.
And your POV is wrong. Stick with us and be educated.
Well, it's not a big issue to me, but I'm fine with others caring a lot. I don't get the investment, if one isn't planning to send children to the school or an alumni of the school.
Personally, when the sushi thing happened a while ago, I thought "well, that school is off the list for my kids when they grow up." Aside from that, the school is of little interest. Too bad about the music conservatory. But there are lots of other institutions.
Well, it's not a big issue to me, but I'm fine with others caring a lot. I don't get the investment, if one isn't planning to send children to the school or an alumni of the school.
Personally, when the sushi thing happened a while ago, I thought "well, that school is off the list for my kids when they grow up." Aside from that, the school is of little interest. Too bad about the music conservatory. But there are lots of other institutions.
Yeah because Leftwing violations and bad actions in higher education are only occurring at Oberlin. It's not like the same things are happening all over the country.
It is inconvenient for the deplorables to notice the violence and coercion inherent in the Leftist Collectivists.
wwww cannot understand why we care about those who would rule us.
I'm sure none of the of SJW admins around the nation even noticed...
Probably true. I’ve been carting a relative around to look at schools in New England this week, as I did 5 years ago for another prospective student. Earlier it seemed the schools were eager to let their freak flag fly compared to today where it seemed they were hiding their crazy. Granted the kids what give the backward walker tours are eager to virtue signal and coo about Butti Edge or AlGore on campus, but still...
Do you catch the speech the Harvard prof have at commencement this year? Not hiding nothin there...
No they are on private email lists and other private forums participating in an echo chamber of defense of all left-wing causes and eagerly conforming to one another. Definitely not thinking for themselves. And basically coming up with the party line that will be presented on TV or in the newspapers tomorrow, which by some amazing coincidence is the same everywhere. That's what I think journalism has become.
Apparently the best they could come up with is "it's a local story".
As I recall they settled on this for Gosnell also so they're not showing much imagination.
This couldn't have happened to a more deserving group of assholes than those found at Oberlin College. Faculty, administration, and students alike.
They've lost their collective minds. And now they'll lose a shit ton of money. As they should.
Being that hopelessly arrogant, wrong, and stupid should be one of the most painful things in life.
And now it is.
Why the rest of you think it's obvious this story should get massive news coverage, is beyond me.
Wwww, you may be a nice person in real life but on this blog, you seem to have this focus on what we, here, should think and say. I'm wondering how to tell you nicely, because you're delicate and sensitive and pregnant or something, how that comes across. In a word, badly.
Oberlin realized too late that their shoplifting students' plea-bargain statements doomed Oberlin in a future trial.
And what does that say about Oberlin?
These people appointed themselves as champions of minorities without ever considering it might be best for those minorities to plea-bargain. People who really cared about those kids would have thought of that: "What's the best course of action for them?" not "how best can we exploit these kids as props for our racial grievance-mongering".
Typical Democrats.
Well, it's not a big issue to me, but I'm fine with others caring a lot.
Okay. You don't need to keep saying this.
I didn't know Lena Dunham put Oberlin in her show. So, it makes sense it's more of a cultural icon then I realized, which explains some of the intense interest that baffles me.
"Wwww, you may be a nice person in real life but on this blog, you seem to have this focus on what we, here, should think and say. I'm wondering how to tell you nicely, because you're delicate and sensitive and pregnant or something, how that comes across. In a word, badly."
My opinion does not mean you should think anything or say anything. I have no interest in patrolling your thinking or statements on the subject. If anything I say is boring or tedious, I'd suggest to please ignore it and move on to a more interesting commenter.
I would appreciate it if I could respond to Althouse's questions in her post without getting jumped on. I didn't realize how sensitive people are about this topic. Isn't not as if I don't agree with the verdict. I gave my opinion why she could not easily find a front-page story on this verdict. My comments upset people, which wasn't my intention.
"It's not like the same things are happening all over the country."
Most major Universities have in-house counsel who would never allow this nonsense.
Okay. You don't need to keep saying this.
Yeah I agree. But from a human standpoint, the temptation is to respond when you step away for a couple of hours and are surprised to come back and see lots of response to comments. Was responding to the idea that I want to patrol other's political viewpoints. I wouldn't be reading a blog if I wasn't curious about other people's POV.
& I learned something today from other people's posts. It never occurred to me that Lena Dunham publicized Oberlin in her show. So, now I have a better understanding of why people are interested in the school.
Anyway, sorry my comments annoyed others. Have a good night.
It never occurred to me that Lena Dunham publicized Oberlin in her show.
And I don’t know that she did. I tried watching an episode of “Girls” once but changed the channel in disgust. I don’t know how you extrapolated from my remarks that Dunham publicized Oberlin on her show. But Dunham made herself a public figure outside her show, notably insisting despite all evidence to the contrary that she had been raped on campus by s member of the college Republicans.
I find wwww.'s belief in the infallibility of in-house counsel to be to be touching, though in this case wildly misplaced. Oberlin HAS full-time legal counsel, fully credentialed -- and it was she in fact who, in the wake of the liability verdict and BEFORE the punitive damages hearing, sent out an email to alumni and others which was heavily critical of the jury and strongly misrepresented the college's actual role. I believe that email formed part of the evidence on punitives and think it probably went quite a way toward convincing the jury that for the college the actual damages award had not changed the administration's attitude even a fraction. Perhaps the punitives award will produce an appropriate attitude adjustment, though I'm not confident this will happen. I will say I was personally appalled when I learned that the General Counsel was the actual source of the email; I have no words to express how inappropriate her action was.
The Toledo Blade covered this story in a much fuller way.
Further to my previous, and just for the record, the Vice President and General Counsel of Oberlin College who sent out that email is Donica Varner.
Just for fun, remember this little ditty
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxCSy7tpUME
Can we agree that the damages are out of line? I suspect there will be an appeal and then a statement at some discounting, but still huge number. Lawyers don't want to wait for their contingency payday.
Alright www, you make a good point and you DO appear to be acting in good faith. Sorry if we jumped your shit. I think its because we are so accustomed to the Left handwaving and minimizing news that breaks their narrative (like Gosnell) that it's become difficult to distinguish people like you from the ones that just want to bury uncomfortable truths. Sorry.
Settlement. Boy do I hate online autocorrect programs.
Can we agree that the damages are out of line?
No. The consensus is that the compensatory damages are reasonable and just.
Isn’t 3x compensatory about as standard as it gets? Certainly closer to standard than unreasonable...
Can we agree that the damages are out of line?
They are a few percentages of Oberlin's endowment. So, no. Damages are meant to alter future behavior. $10000 is not going to cut it in this case.
So how much would readering require to be defamed and run out of business by a mob of politically motivated people?
What's the number, readering?
As for me, I'd take about $50 million because then I wouldn't have to worry about future income, so the destruction of my career would be less of an issue.
So, uh, no. We cannot agree on the damages award (spread between four generations of Gibsons) is too high.
The narrative must be defended by the Left.
And Fen, you weren't wrong about wwww; she is a Leftist narrative defender.
Just saw the NYT article published yesterday; a piece of work.
“Gibson bakery’s archaic chase-and-detain policy regarding suspected shoplifters was the catalyst for the protests,” the college said. “The guilt or innocence of the students is irrelevant to both the root cause of the protests and this litigation.”
No mention of course that the Gibsons attempted a negotiated settlement, and there's a paragraph of prize dissimulation by the 'trade group' representing academic administrators about how this is a singular event with no relevance elsewhere.
Hey Marc!?!
Is that the same dissimulation as practiced above by roesch/voltaire, readering, and wwww?
Narrative über alles.
I reckon that it may be so, yes. :-) 'The Times' institutional position in the firmament of the mass media etc juggernaut makes it less problematic for me to accuse them of intentional dissimulation. It's entirely possible that the people in conversation here are not intentionally making things up to suit their political and other predilections.
“Can we agree that the damages are out of line? I suspect there will be an appeal and then a statement at some discounting, but still huge number. Lawyers don't want to wait for their contingency payday.”
Why would we agree to that?
They were already in eight digits with compensatory damages. That is what a jury determined the harm to have been to family and their business. That is before punitive damages and is just for making the plaintiffs whole, essentially reestablishing the status quo ante. As for attorneys’ fees - they have yet to be finalized and awarded, but are due too. Also, apparently under Ohio law, the defendant here is required to post a bond equal to the damages awarded in order to appeal (though they may only have to cover the compensatory damages, attorneys fees, and doubling, but not trebling, the compensatory damages as punitive damages - maybe $34 million or so).
readering said...
Can we agree that the damages are out of line?
The left's support for blacklisting as an appropriate norm demonstrates they don't think losing the ability to make a living is any big deal. Maybe they think the Gibsons' can go on welfare the rest of their lives.
Comparing their current beliefs to the anti-communist blacklists is a problem though since they still claim those were outrageous. But those were targeted at them and the left doesn't believe principles apply to their enemies.
“Gibson bakery’s archaic chase-and-detain policy regarding suspected shoplifters was the catalyst for the protests,” the college said. “The guilt or innocence of the students is irrelevant to both the root cause of the protests and this litigation.”
There was no “or innocence” of the three students arrested for the theft, etc. They stipulated to their guilt in open court.
And the school is still in serious denial about the entire episode. If the school had stood aside and let the students stand on their own here, they could have avoided most, if not all, of the damages awarded against them. The root cause here is that there are two sets of rules in this country: Woke rules, and Real World rules. Much of the country believe Woke rules to be ridiculous. Real World rules don’t excuse people from lawbreaking just because they have sufficient intersectionality points. Unfortunately for the Woke community there, Oberlin is located in a county filled with Woke Deniers, and they formed the jury pool. So, Real World rules prevailed.
Megaera @ 6/14/19, 11:24 PM
..... it was she in fact who, in the wake of the liability verdict and BEFORE the punitive damages hearing, sent out an email to alumni and others which was heavily critical of the jury and strongly misrepresented the college's actual role. I believe that email formed part of the evidence on punitives and think it probably went quite a way toward convincing the jury that for the college the actual damages award had not changed the administration's attitude even a fraction
The e-mail was NOT admitted as evidence in determining the amount of punitive damages. Gibson’s Bakery v. Oberlin College Punitive Damages Hearing – Judge Denies Attempt to use College Blast Email Criticizing Jury.
[3:20 p.m.] The Court has rejected plaintiffs’ request to use the mass email sent by Oberlin College’s Vice President and General Counsel, Donica Thomas Varner, to the Oberlin community criticizing the jury. The plaintiffs subpoenaed her to testify, and the defense filed a motion to quash the subpoena.
The Judge ruled: “this was a letter sent by the Oberlin general counsel after the verdict. We are talking about the actions of the defendants that demonstrated malice. What we will use is only what was litigated in court.”
This will probably help the plaintiffs in the appeal process.
Commenter wwww has repeatedly informed us that the Gibson-Oberlin trial is not important news. If it is not important news, then why has wwww made so many comments about it? If I consider what Popstar eats for breakfast to be trivial,unimportant news,I don't waste my time writing a comment about it.
Richard -- thanks for the correction, and yes, I think you're right: Judge Miraldi's decision was proper and obviates what could have been an undue-prejudice argument from defendants on appeal. But I will say that as I suspected, based on the President's latest blast mailing, despite looking at 33 million in liability (plus attorney fees, costs and the expense of the matching appeal bond) she and her cohort have learned absolutely nothing from their smackdown.
The horrifying part is that this was a case BEGGING for settlement and yet Oberlin deliberately chose the worst possible alternative: going to trial and having its frankly awful attitudes and decisions displayed for all the world to see. Settlement at ANY cost should have been the school's top priority (especially with all the lawyers on staff) yet they made the choice of total exposure -- and that is precisely what they got.
As to wwww. I can't say; perhaps the favored prog mantra of "Nothing to see here, move along now," is contagious.
The students tried to buy wine with a fake ID. When the storeowner refused the ID and tried to confiscate it, they grabbed the wine and fled the store. He tried to stop them outside. There was a scuffle, but the students weren't charged with assault.
After the accusations of racism and the loss of university food service contracts, Gibsons survived only by laying off employees. Family members worked for nothing to keep the store open.
Oberlin's expert valued the bakery/grocery store at $35,000. That insultingly low estimate may have angered the jury.
Conor Friedersdorf has an excellent analysis of the issues: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/06/the-publicly-shamed-sue-oberlin-college-verdict/591379/
The rubber meets the glorious road.
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