June 16, 2019

On Friday, I complained that the NYT published only "thin, undigested AP material" on the Oberlin punitive damages verdict.

Here.

But later that day, the Times published a full-scale article — "Oberlin Helped Students Defame a Bakery, a Jury Says. The Punishment: $33 Million" by Anemona Hartocollis — and it's a little obscure but, reading it carefully, I understood Oberlin's argument for the first time. I had thought that Oberlin just got the facts wrong when it accused the bakery of racism. I now see that the argument is that even if the bakery stopped blatant shoplifters, the accusation of racism stands.

Let me show you how this argument emerges from the text:
Gibson’s bakery, a local establishment known for its whole wheat doughnuts and chocolate-covered grapes, became the target of a boycott by students who accused it of racially profiling a black student.... Oberlin maintained that college officials had gotten involved only to keep the peace, and that it was supporting its students, not their claims that Gibson’s was racist. But the jury found that Oberlin had clearly chosen sides without first examining the facts....

Oberlin tried to distance itself from the protesters in court papers, saying it should not be held responsible for their actions. It blamed the store for bringing its problems on itself.

“Gibson bakery’s archaic chase-and-detain policy regarding suspected shoplifters was the catalyst for the protests,” the college said. “The guilt or innocence of the students is irrelevant to both the root cause of the protests and this litigation.”
Got that? It's irrelevant that the suspected shoplifters were real shoplifters. What the students called racist was the "chase-and-detain policy."

The store clerk seems to have suspected shoplifting not because of the person's race but because he could see 2 wine bottles hidden under his coat, but he "chased the student out onto the street and tackled him," and that's what's racist (in this view). If the chase-and-detain approach is racist, even when the shopkeeper is right about the theft, then it's not false to accuse the shopkeeper of racism.
Allyn Gibson, the 32-year-old store clerk, was trained in martial arts, according to Oberlin’s court papers, and his decision to chase down and tackle a student “beyond the borders of their store and into full public view of their customer base” opened him and the store up to public criticism....

Neither the college nor the dean ever said or wrote anything defamatory about the plaintiffs, the college said. In fact, it added, there was a split in opinion within the college community as to whether the Gibsons were racist or not, and it was their constitutional right to express their opinions on that score....

“Part of the narrative that has been built up is that Oberlin’s administration weaponized students against Gibson’s out of malice,” [Kameron Dunbar, who just graduated from Oberlin]. “I find that concept to be pretty insulting. We’re autonomous.”
The larger question — barely gestured at in the article — is what is racism? It may be a good idea to consider each human individual "autonomous," but the school is part of the culture that shapes the concept of racism, and racism can be understood broadly, perhaps broadly enough to include a chase-and-detain policy, broadly enough to make the policy racist without regard to guilt or innocence.

When can you express the opinion that someone is racist? The term is thrown around a lot these days. Is it defamation to use "racist" in the broad sense? There are a lot of people these days who think anyone who supports Trump is a racist. If some shop loses business because people know the owner voted for Trump and that's their idea of racism and they go around telling each other not to shop in the store because it's owned by a racist, can the shop owner sue them all and win damages?

How does free speech work if we can't call each other racist for any damned thing we choose to imagine is racist?

347 comments:

«Oldest   ‹Older   201 – 347 of 347
Birkel said...

Tina Trent,
Do you have meat space contact information for those of us who might contribute time/effort/resources?

Jupiter said...

Do you suppose that any of those jurors were "racists"? Do you suppose that the good academics at Oberlin would call any of those jurors "racists"? Do you think those jurors will be safe from the Oberlin mob if their identities are revealed? I'd say the jurors saw what the bakery is selling, and what Oberln is selling, and allowed as how they prefer the doughnuts.

hstad said...

“Gibson bakery’s archaic chase-and-detain policy regarding suspected shoplifters was the catalyst for the protests.....” Boy I bet you that went over well with the Jury! The University Betters (Elite) didn't think much of the 'Hoi Pol·Loi' in their community. AA, am not an attorney, but what kind of lawyer would say that - 'tone deaf' about the Jury?

Birkel said...

hstad,
Egg heads have to make some omelettes.
The JDs were Top Men.

Michael K said...

And the Covington cases (pl) are moving along to Kentucky juries.

If I were Bezos or AT&T, I would think hard about settling.

John Ray said...

Henry @8:35 "That's not correct."

Technically, Henry, you're correct. Walking or rolling through a store and secreting for sale items in one's shorts, bra, coat, purse or whatever is shoplifting. However, it's difficult to prove until one leaves the premises, so the store dics wait until then to attempt a halt to the process. Most half-witted defense lawyers can successfully mount "I intended to pay" defense unless the perp makes it out of the front door.

Birkel said...

Imagine the surprise of those who live in university bubbles discovering the Reverse-Sally-Field effect.
Maybe that would make a good Hitler in the Bunker parody.

One wonders how all those Dept of Agriculture employees will be seen by farmers.
You know, the farmers who are mad at Trump because of tariffs? (I doubt the reportage.)
What will they do when they realize government regulators hate those they regulate?
How does that play in Peoria?

The government workers go to and from work never meeting another person who doesn't accept the same self-serving assumptions about the world that they have; the bubbles are impervious.
When will the people turn their backs on the Deep State regulators?

Tomcc said...

About that "archaic chase and detain policy"...
I work for a very large retailer. The company has two stores within the local mall with maybe 200,000 feet of retail space. Our "Home" store (small appliances, bedding, china, etc.) had shrinkage of about $1M during 2017. In 2018 that doubled. Whether by chance or by design, the company appears to be relatively unconcerned. Our security staff consists of three people and they seem to only watch cameras all day. In my view, the company has capitulated.

hstad said...

LOL - Colleges really think they are Above The Law in America.

Narayanan said...

@AA ...
you said Racism is an idea. It only has meaning as it is created by the human mind.

Are you using *as* ... Conjunction or preposition.

Your meaning and Any response will depend on the difference and will be different kettles of fish.

Ken B said...

Michael K
Any settlement will require an admission of guilt. They are incapable of that.
The press deliberately endangered and libeled those kids. I lived in Ft Thomas which abuts Covington. Bezos does not want me on a jury.

Sydney said...

Here is the testimony from the trial on Oberlin’s role in defaming the Gibsons. Dean of Students directs the protests held outside the store (keeping customers away, I’m sure) with a bullhorn and hands out fliers accusing the Gibsons of being racists. The school provides pizza and drinks for the protestors, use of bathrooms, copiers, and organizing space in an academic building down the street from the bakery. Sure sounds like it was the college was an active participant. Encouraging, even.

Yancey Ward said...

I think the question you have to ask yourself is this- if Gibson had, instead, called the police and had the shoplifters arrested on their way down the street rather than pursuing them himself, would he and his store been treated differently by Oberlin and the students?

William said...

Smolletify. That should be a word. It's a common occurrence......Shoplifting isn't the worst crime on earth, but giving a beat down to the guy who apprehends you and then accusing him of racism makes you a true scumbag.....The press has tactfully avoided giving these scholar/shoplifters any added publicity or done any digging into their backgrounds. They will be allowed to put this in the past and get on with their lives. God help any of the Covington kids if they ever get caught shoplifting.

Birkel said...

Trial lawyers are salivating.
https://nypost.com/2019/06/15/former-democrat-turned-conservative-gay-rights-activist-slams-pride-sues-lgbt-center/

The Left got fat and happy winning the culture war.
Now the Deep Pockets are enticing.
Not every attorney is going to quit teaching at Columbia.
Some just want to cash checks.

Ingachuck'stoothlessARM said...

when your culture is lawlessness

law & order, which is counter to your culture, is your oppressor.

(nevermind that "race" now can mean culture/religion)

Quaestor said...

How does free speech work if we can't call each other racist for any damned thing we choose to imagine is racist?

How can free speech work if we call each other racist for any damned thing we choose to imagine is racist and inflict damage as punishment?

buwaya said...

In war there is no right or wrong.
And thats what you have, politico-cultural war.
Power is all, when existence is at stake.

It goes back to that day in Salamanca, the confrontation between the bloody barbarian intellectual Millan Astray and the honorable, humanitarian intellectual Unamuno.
Unamuno forgot the context, of the ongoing existential war.

Birkel said...

Stopping criminals, like those breaking immigration laws, is per se racism.
We all know that.
Also, you're violating their rights under the Voting Rights Act.
QED

Encouraging lawlessness in one place won't help us down a slippery slope.
Of course it won't.

What's a few Broken Windows, right?

John henry said...

If we had all black colleges we would not have this problem. Blacks could go to "their" schools and everyone else to "their" non-black schools.

Oh, wait. We already have that, funded by govt. Trouble is blacks won't stay put in their schools.

Perhaps because they are generally crappy, academically.

In all seriousness, how does a society like ours allow these schools to exist?

John Henry

Yancey Ward said...

Publicly saying "White people are racists" is an opinion not open to court action for slander. Saying the "Gibson Bakery's owners are racists" is open to fact finding and adjudication for slander and libel.

Let me ask you Ms. Althouse- if the Madison newspaper published an article that claimed you were a racist and encouraged U of W students to protest day and night outside your house, what would you do?

Birkel said...

Ah, but buwaya, you are discounting the punishment that one side believes will never be visited on their own.
Now they have an object lesson to consider.
There will be more.

Tit-for-tat works to discipline uncooperative game players in repeated games.
It's important signaling.

People in favor of freedom must defy those who would exercise a Will to Power.
Let's see who learns their lessons before the situations escalate further.

Fernandinande said...

In war there is no right or wrong.
And thats what you have, politico-cultural war.
Power is all, when existence is at stake.


Ohh, drama!

It goes back to that day in Salamanca,

No it doesn't.

Quaestor said...

There has always been tension between speech and slander in a free society. There was a time in our history when men (and occasionally women) defended their honor from the depredations of liars with swords and pistols. Risking one's life by exercising one's freedom of speech to slander or impune tended to make potential slanderers cautious and circumspect. As Robert Heinlein observed an armed society is a polite society. However, dueling is now illegal, and the tension between speech and slander is resolved by juries who punish the most egregious lies — the lies of the powerful against the weak — with something more stinging than a sword thrust.

If Oberlin successfully makes that spurious free speech argument to an appellant court, then the only resort left to honest men wronged will be violence.

Birkel said...

Quaestor repeats my points more elegantly.

Tit-for-tat is the only option.

Sebastian said...

"even when the shopkeeper is right about the theft, then it's not false to accuse the shopkeeper of racism"

Racism is whatever progs define as such.

“beyond the borders of their store and into full public view of their customer base” opened him and the store up to public criticism...."

"public criticism" from progs, who thought they could smear with impunity.

"Neither the college nor the dean ever said or wrote anything defamatory about the plaintiffs"

Except that they continued the defamation, in the eyes of non-progs, in their very defense.

@AA: "racism can be understood broadly, perhaps broadly enough to include a chase-and-detain policy, broadly enough to make the policy racist without regard to guilt or innocence."

Missing the point: just as broadly as SJWs and their prog enablers want it to be, as long as it can be used to smear whites, serve blacks, and advance prog power.

"How does free speech work if we can't call each other racist for any damned thing we choose to imagine is racist?"

That's the least of our problems. "Racism" has been weaponized by the left as an all-purpose tool, to the point where libel and defamation have become the prog MO. For now, there's a law against that, as Oberlin learned.

Prog politics has turned into an extended form of race-baiting. Even "color-blindness" is now racist.

Gk1 said...

The best part of all this is the large award will attract lawyers to this vast untapped market of reckless, progressive assholes on college campuses, drunk on power. Look at some of the roll back happening on the kangaroo "rape courts" that had sprung up during the Obama reign. These big juicy college endowments are almost as plump as big tobacco was during the 90's. I doubt Oberlin will be the chilling effect it needs to be. We need another 5-10 Oberlin's to put a dent into these koo koo birds running college campuses.

Quaestor said...

Racism is an idea. It only has meaning as it is created by the human mind.

Althouse rarely ventures into the realms of stupidity, but when she does...

I doubt a Holocaust survivor would be convinced by that analysis.

Narayanan said...

Roy Lofquist said...
The elements of a cause of action for slander are:
1. A defamatory statement;
2. Published to a third party;
3. Which the speaker knew or should have known was false;
4. That causes injury to the subject of the communication

"the truth of a statement is a complete defense to any slander claim.

Which also means 4 is well deserved.

But truth is no defense in UK Court ... Is this true?

effinayright said...

Henry said...
"Chase and detain" sounds like an invented phrase, intentionally made to sound akin to "stop and frisk." I'm very curious about who first used the phrase and in what context.

Furthermore, did Gibson's actually have a "chase and detain" policy or was this simply a "chase and detain" incident?

Should they have had an "ask politely to not steal" policy?
***********

Essentially, that's all shopkeepers can do in Suffolk county in Massachusetts, which includes Boston.

Why Because our woke District Attorney has announced a new policy:

Suffolk County DA Rachel Rollins unveiled Tuesday a new memo — “The Rachel Rollins Memo” — which applies new lenient standards to criminals, especially illegal alien criminals, convicted of certain offenses.

Shoplifting, larceny, breaking and entering, trespassing, driving with a suspended license, malicious destruction of property, and resisting arrest are now all crimes that will not be prosecuted if the suspect is poor, mentally ill, addicted to drugs, or committed the alleged crime “of necessity.”

This is NOT something from the Onion or Babylon Bee!!

https://howiecarrshow.com/2019/03/26/twitter-shadow-bans-critique-of-bostons-insane-new-policy-legalizing-shoplifting-larceny/

Quaestor said...

Racism is an idea. It only has meaning as it is created by the human mind.

If racism is an idea, then how can an action be racist?

buwaya said...

The world swims in drama, it is inescapable.
So is tragedy, so is comedy.

History is written by the greatest author there ever was, though we amuse ourselves with pallid versions by some human writer, being as few are granted the risky opportunity to see it directly.

Char Char Binks, Esq. said...

Fuck Oberlin, and fuck all Leftist. I'm not saying it's time to simply gun them down, but it's getting close.

Birkel said...

Althouse is where Andrew McCarthy was just a couple of years ago.
She is having a hard time recognizing the thing to which she devoted her working life is completely corrupt.
But Althouse is honest and like McCarthy might start to question her own premises.

So there's that.

Quaestor said...

We need another 5-10 Oberlin's to put a dent into these koo koo birds running college campuses.

Steven Hayward at Powerline pointed out that the lovely smell of money will draw lawyers to anti-PC lawsuits like flies to honey.

I Callahan said...

That is, there seem to be some people expressing the idea that treating thieves as criminals is a problem of racism.

Well, until theft is no longer considered a crime, the people who participate in theft will be considered criminals. Why is this concept so hard for academics to understand?

buwaya said...

It really does come down to 1936. The old understanding of what was culturally acceptable in geopolitical conflict was set right there. There were no excuses possible from then on, no quibbles, no morality. The Russian massacres or the Turko-Greek ones could be dismissed as barbarians being barbarian, Ethiopia as having barbarians on one side at least, but..

But in Spain both sides were openly out to exterminate the other, over ideology.

This was a new, new thing in modern European history. It set the tone of WWII. Anything could be justified, or indeed few bothered to justify anything.

Birkel said...

I Callahan,
Because all they care about is power.
Everything flows from that.
It's a theory that fits the facts.

cyrus83 said...

Free speech doesn't work is the simplest explanation to the question.

Free speech is only possible when people are willing to tolerate whatever another person might say, regardless of what it is. Since Oberlin and most colleges are not teaching their students to tolerate things they disagree with, their graduates are essentially enemies of free speech and that is the kind of material we're minting as teachers, lawyers, politicians, and other leaders of society.

In practice, free speech has never been really free on all topics, but the range of topics on which the freedom exists has been much more constrained in this politically correct era.

Narayanan said...

Even if litigation opportunities become numerous and attractive will the receptive jury be found only among *deplorable flyover* or is disconnect and discontent wider.

"Heinlein crazy years" mentioned often.

I'm more Atlas Shrugged fixated. Will there need to be Judge Narragansett level revulsion and rebellion? Or sanity sooner?

If Ayn Rand is winning that truly is MAGA.

Birkel said...

Narayanan,
Columbia and NYU are probably safe.
Harvard is exposed.
Georgetown is probably safe.
UVa is exposed.
Stanford and UC-Berkeley are probably safe.
Even UT-Austin has exposure in the county, if not the city.

The election maps pose problems for ideological litigants outside their safe zones.
And the appeals courts are situated outside the Leftists areas, mainly.

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

Has Becky Beckyson's We Don't Prosecute Shoplifters Wine and Bakery opened next to awful racist Gibson's yet?

Narayanan said...

*There has always been tension between speech and slander in a free society.*

Is good observation.

In NYT v Sullivan the court tipped it to favor slanderers via misappropriation of Constitution.

NorthOfTheOneOhOne said...

Bruce Hayden said...

One of the interesting things from Oberlin’s statements was that the school community couldn’t come together in defining what racism was, as the left so vigorously redefines the word for their own purposes.

That's because the term that would truly describe the situation would be adultism. The school community objects to Gibson's chase and detain policy because it involves Oberlin PD and means real world consequences.

The students want things to be like kindergarten when lil' Brittney stole their juice box and the teacher got involved and made her give the juice box back and say; "Sorry". Having to deal with the police and courts is too grown up for them.

The administrators are worried about such things because enrollment is down due to Oberlin having lost it's cachet as an Ivy League safety school. They even tried to settle the case with the condition that in future similar situations the college would be called, not the police.

Neither faction articulate what they really mean since they realize that saying; "We don't want to follow grown up rules", would make them laughing stocks. Instead they trot out that old standby Racism.

Rabel said...

The shoplifting incident occurred on November 9, 2016. The protests took place that day and the days immediately following.

If November 9, 2016 rings a bell, it's because it was "The Day After." I suspect Ms. Raimundo and many Oberlin students, faculty and administrators were out out of their minds with a pain that just wouldn't go away.

Didn't they suffer enough? Shouldn't we grant forgiveness to these troubled souls? Shouldn't we feel their pain? Who hasn't needed a few bottles of vino obtained by any means necessary in such trying times.

It's time to move on.

rhhardin said...

I'd imagine, if the shoplifter was from a well-to-do family, he shoplifted as a way to get something he was happy to pay for but couldn't get owing to his age. So not retaliation so much as avoiding a rule.

Seeing Red said...

Part of the narrative that has been built up is that Oberlin’s administration weaponized students against Gibson’s out of malice,” [Kameron Dunbar, who just graduated from Oberlin]. “I find that concept to be pretty insulting. We’re autonomous.”

That’s full of BS.

WWIII Joe Biden, Husk-Puppet + America's Putin said...

Rabel - No. An Entire business must be brought to it's knees and lynched on behalf of the never ending entitled Hillary lost butt hurt party.

Narayanan said...

Also in this case impatient imbibacious youth butting up against underage law.

They had * fake ID * and willing to pay.

Rabel said...

"Steven Hayward at Powerline pointed out that the lovely smell of money will draw lawyers to anti-PC lawsuits like flies to honey."

That is a disgusting insult to the many, many good men and women who have chosen to enter the legal profession. Here's the lawyer who won the Oberlin verdict and...

Well, fuck. Dude looks like a starving man eying a T-Bone. I'd hire him.

buwaya said...

"Dude looks like a starving man eying a T-Bone. I'd hire him."

What a face! You are right, this fellow looks ferocious.

Big Mike said...

@Seeing Red, so you agree with me that college students have no right not to be offended? How to get that across to Ms. Dunbar is the question.

Lewis Wetzel said...

Orwell recognized that the essential nature of authoritarianism is the exercise of arbitrary power. The power exercised must be arbitrary because otherwise the authority is constrained by something higher than itself -- God, tradition, the law, the will of the people, it doesn't matter.
In its after the fact pronouncements, it is clear that Oberlin does not see its own uncivil actions as the problem, it sees the courts and the law as the problem. It believes that it must be free to define racism as it wishes to define racism, and fight racism as it wishes to fight racism. If the law has a problem with that, the law must be changed.

WWIII Joe Biden, Husk-Puppet + America's Putin said...

The 33 million dollar coordinated autonomous tantrum.

Narayanan said...

*Fake ID* was taken away as required by law.

I'm missing the part where accompanying items were also given up.

The concealed goods is backup and intentional.

Greg P said...

The store clerk seems to have suspected shoplifting not because of the person's race but because he could see 2 wine bottles hidden under his coat, but he "chased the student out onto the street and tackled him," and that's what's racist (in this view). If the chase-and-detain approach is racist, even when the shopkeeper is right about the theft, then it's not false to accuse the shopkeeper of racism.


Yeah, and if unicorns exist and shit skittles, no one will starve.

So what?

It's only racist to chase shoplifters if that's something they one do to black shoplifters who try to escape, and not to white shoplifters who try to escape.

Which makes that a question of fact, not one of opinion.

Since Oberlin never provided any data to back up this claim, and we have the police department numbers saying Griffin nailed a lot more white shoplifters than black ones, it's a "false statement of fact."

Which means it's a lie. Not an opinion, a lie.

And there's no First Amendment protection for lying about people.

Further, the jury apparently found that Oberlin knew it was a lie, and / or didn't care. That also isn't protected by the First Amendment.

"How does free speech work if we can't call each other racist for any damned thing we choose to imagine is racist?"

Simple: you state exactly what is that you mean by "racist", you state how it is that the person you are attacking meets that definition, and you not lie about any of it.

Not an oldster. said...

Einee meanie minee mo
Catch a tiger by the toe.
If he hollers, let him go...
Einee meanie minee mo!


If only blacks can call out tiger behavior, because feelings get hurt if whites use off limits words, the tigers think they are above all laws.

No special treatment: blacks and whites both get to call a tiger a tiger ..

Michael said...

Lawyers will feast on this category of litigation. I can see billboards outside of lefty college towns advertising legal services for those wrongly maligned by the SJWs. A la Mesothelioma. I would expect there have been more than a few meetings at lefty colleges on the Oberlin case.

Narayanan said...

@Greg P ... Well said sir.

For someone proficient at parsing and forensic etymology! I'm surprised at AA unless it's all just a Socratic pose.

Anonymous said...

Paul Mac (9:33am) linked to Legal Insurrection, but it's worth spelling out for those too lazy to follow the link. The comments of rhhardin and others on the relative propensity of blacks to shoplift are utterly irrelevant here. LI says that someone went to the trouble of looking through police records for 2011-2016 and found that 40 people had been arrested for shoplifting at Gibson's, of whom 32 were white, 6 black, and 2 Asian. If 15% of the arrested were black in a town that's 14.8% black, then Gibson's demonstrably does not arrest black shoplifters out of proportion to white ones. (You can argue about the difference between 15 and 14.8 if you like, but that would be hilariously stupid.)

The shameful thing is that 33 of the 40 were Oberlin students, the vast majority of whom are far higher in the socio-economic class structure than any of the Gibsons. LI quotes a student reporter who interviewed people on both sides, and mentions that he had personally stolen from the stores of some of the people he interviewed. It apparently hadn't occurred to the little turd that maybe he should try to estimate the amount he had stolen from each store, round off any uncertainties in the stores' favors, and pay them the fuck back.

It looks like Oberlin is the institution that needs to do some rethinking. Whether they are accepting too many freshmen who are ignorant or contemptuous of basic morality, or failing to teach them some basic morality after they matriculate, or some of each, is unclear - most likely the last. They could start by announcing that anyone proven to have shoplifted from (or vandalized) any store in town would be expelled, and then do exactly that.

Greg P said...

Racism is an idea. It only has meaning as it is created by the human mind.

All words only have meaning as created by human meds. So what? That does not mean you get to impose your own definitions on words when interacting with the rest of us


Racism is judging people by the color of their skin, not the content of their character.

Did Gibson do that? No. Then they're not racists, and anyone who says they are is a liar.

You don't like the actual definition of racism? Fine! Make up another word, and use that word. Stop committed linguistic matricide by trying to destroy the meaning of already understood words

Seeing Red said...

I think there can be neutral rules about disrupting school board meetings,

No there can’t, Snowflake.

Disrupting can mean words the school board doesn’t want to hear.

Look at the deplatforming going on now.

Birkel said...

Michael,
I am sorry but your faith in rational responses to the Oberlin example is misplaced.
They are too busy forcing professors to use preferred pronouns to worry over legal cases.
And most schools' general counsel is a political hire with zero legal chops.
They're yes-men and -women not great thinkers.

Seeing Red said...


Blogger EDH said...
Colleges likely believe everyone should have to swim in the same swamp of racism accusations they do on a daily basis. To them it's the status quo and the new normal.


It’s job security. And power. They’re legends in their own minds.

Lewis Wetzel said...

Gre P wrote:
Racism is judging people by the color of their skin, not the content of their character.
Wrong!
If this was true, then not having done a thing (judging a person by the color of his/her skin) would mean that you are innocent of racism. The key is that you must be judged to have been a racist with no actual racist actions taken on your part. They decide whether you are a racist. You have no say in the matter.

Narayanan said...

Blogger Birkel said...
Althouse is where Andrew McCarthy was just a couple of years ago.
She is having a hard time recognizing the thing to which she devoted her working life is completely corrupt.

If true my advice is read
The Fountainhead for starters and follow up with Atlas Shrugged where a specific amendment is suggested as the cure for the lacuna in the USA jurisprudence.

Seeing Red said...

Remember, it is a basic tenant of Leftist Collectivism that property rights are antithetical to the Cause.

6/16/19, 9:45 AM

They want to take us back 1000 years....

Seeing Red said...

Gibson bakery’s archaic chase-and-detain policy regarding suspected shoplifters was the catalyst for the protests....

What’s Oberlin’s policy?

If I walked on to campus and stole/shoplifted from it, what would they do?

Gk1 said...

And look how these loonie fare once they have to leave their playpen on campus and defend their ludicrous ideas in front of normal people. The left is at a natural disadvantage because of the secret ballot and jury trials. No wonder they are working so hard to dilute them.

RichardJohnson said...

buwaya @ 11:42 AM
Power is all, when existence is at stake.It goes back to that day in Salamanca, the confrontation between the bloody barbarian intellectual Millan Astray and the honorable, humanitarian intellectual Unamuno.
Unamuno forgot the context, of the ongoing existential war.


Until I read some of Stanley Payne's books on Spain, I believed that it was the Right that was out to exterminate the Left, whereas the "democratically elected" Left was scrupulously "adhering to the Constitution." Payne pointed out to me that the Right had ample reason to doubt the "adhering to the Constitution" narrative about the Left. For example, government policemen kidnapped and killed Jose Calvo Sotelo,the leading Right spokesman in Parliament. Though the policemen were identified, the leftist government refused to arrest them. Government policemen killing with impunity your leading spokesman in Parliament does tend to focus one's attention.


h said...

I believe the left has created a serious and unintended consequence. Young people (born since the turn of the century, approximately) are now much more likely to believe that racism is not really that bad. It's because the term has been used to describe actions and words that really are not that bad. (And similarly Trump=Hitler leads people to conclude, "Maybe Hitler wasn't really that bad.")

Fen said...

the question of what is "racist" is fraught with ambiguity. It's a subject to be debated and it shouldn't be at the risk of liability.

Then how can there be laws against racial discrimination?

And if Racism is "just" and opinion, then why can't a deli refuse to serve blacks because the owner has the opinion they are subhuman and no different than seating a dog at the table?

If racism is just an opinion, then what's the big deal with the Civil Rights movement?

RichardJohnson said...

Bruce Hayden @ 827 a.m.
When the rest of the greater community hear the world “racist”, they think Klan, burning crosses, and lynchings.
Put Oberlin hate crime hoax into a search engine. Oberlin students have been doing it for years. Michelle Malkin informed us that there were hate crime hoaxes when she was a student at Oberlin several decades ago. Also note what the administration did.

Amadeus 48 said...

This all goes under the rubric of trying to avoid responsibility by misdirection.

Is it OK to yell “Police brutality!” where you are being detained for a carjacking in which the baby in the car seat was dumped into the road and run over by another car? You certainly have the right to do it, but should you escape the consequences for your criminal act? How about falsely yelling “Fire” in a crowded theater so you can escape from a pickpocketing arrest, and the ensuing panic kills ten people in the crush? How about accusing a store owner of racism after you have been caught stealing two bottles of wine from him? How about spreading accusations of racism and then acting on them to ruin the business of a grocer so that your stepson and his friends won’t turn on you when they are arrested for stealing from the grocer? What if you are black, your stepson is white, and the grocer is Pakistani? What if you are Catholic, your stepson is black, and the grocer is Protestant? Does it matter if you are Irish? And what about Ulster? And Brexit?

This is a petty larceny case that somehow came to be about Trump. One of the most prestigious small colleges in America, with a distinguished history, has completely embraced panic, emotionalism, ridiculous racial tropes, and confusion.

Heaven help us all.

Fen said...

The idea that a chase and detain policy is racist is ludicrous.

It can only be racist if the decision to exercise that policy is based on the perp's race.

Lewis Wetzel said...

The concept of "structural racism" is derived from a literary theory, invented in the 1950s, called "structuralism." Structuralism says that, for example, a cowboy in a Western novel has no idea that he is acting within the structure of a Western novel, yet he acts as though he is a cowboy in a Western novel. The structure of the text determines the actions of the individual.
So academics have adapted this to literary theory to social criticism. You can commit racist actions without actually committing racist actions. If you are white, your every action and belief reinforces white supremacy.
All of the Democrat candidates for prez have endorsed the idea of "structural racism." The way you fight structural racism is to fight the the existing structure of society; it is all racist.
The SJW's have convinced themselves that they are not part of the structure of society, hence the attraction to "intersectional" identity. If you are queer, black, hispanic, you are not part of the racist structure of society, and can legitimately criticize society. The more boxes you can check, the more valid your criticism of society is.

Amadeus 48 said...

Althouse won’t read Atlas Shrugged. It’s too long, and she doesn’t like being told what to read.

Lewis Wetzel said...

Blogger Amadeus 48 said...
Althouse won’t read Atlas Shrugged. It’s too long, and she doesn’t like being told what to read.

It's also turgid.

Anonymous said...

This might be one of the most incompetent example of lawyering in the history of the legal profession. This case was over on the day the shoplifters pleaded guilty. It was the Lawyer’s job to telll Oberlin the case could not be won and must be settled. The defense they put on was malpractice it was so stupid. Sometimes you have to ell your client what he does not want to hear.

Fen said...

"The school was upset, in part, because they had asked shop owners in town to call them instead of the police for first time shoplifters."

They don't have the right to appropriate the role of the police.

Fen said...

Blacks are now expected to steal and engage in at least petty crimes with impunity. How racist is that, a two tier justice system based on race?

Which may explain Althouse dancing on the head of a pin here. My first dust up with her was over her moderation policy re racial slurs - only the nword was banned, all of the other racial slurs directed at OTHER races were allowed. No equal protection. May explain why she has a blind spot here too, she holds blacks to a lower standard.

Fen said...

Also in this case impatient imbibacious youth butting up against underage law.

They had * fake ID * and willing to pay.


Nothing prevented them from dropping a $20 on the counter before they ran out the store.

Lawrence Person said...

Evidently it's now racist to expect black people to be capable of obeying the law the same way as white people.

The fact that Oberlin College demanded that they stop prosecuting shoplifters was especially absurd. Evidently felony theft is to be written off as "youthful hi-jinks" where precious college students are concerned.

No wonder they got such a huge judgment.

Birkel said...

Fen,
There was a time when people would go to a convenience store -- after the hours the state had determined were too late to sell alcohol -- and would take a case of beer and leave $20 behind.

Or so I have heard.

Joan said...

Testimony (from LI) supports the idea that Oberlin wanted to apply the same DOE "guidance" on sexual assualt and misconduct to shoplifting: let us decide who's guilty and who's not. It is amazing that Gibson's stood firm and refused to agree to a policy going forward that would require them to call the college instead of the police for student shoplifters. Good on them.

Some of that Oberlin testimony is downright weird. The admin thought the students wouldn't eat food prepared by Gibson's Bakery, delivered to the college dining halls? (They testified they were worried the students would throw the food on the floor and cause a riot.) What college student ever has known or cared about where their non-fast-food-court food is coming from? Talk about being in a bubble.

tim in vermont said...

“(They testified they were worried the students would throw the food on the floor and cause a riot.)”

Because some of the profs would tell the students about it, gin up outrage, and suggest it.

tim in vermont said...

“It's also turgid”

But the wrong kind of turgid.

I kid, I kid.

bwebster said...

Did the article point out that the multi-year police history of those detained for shoplifting at Gibson's Bakery matched the racial distribution of the community almost perfectly -- with blacks slightly underrepresented?

0_0 said...

Oberlin had a solution. They wanted future shoplifters to be reported to the school, not to the OPD. And if the bakery agreed in writing, they would resume doing business with them.

What is scary is that the first 911 call is from a female student who did not see the false ID purchase attempt and said the shoplifter was chased down and assaulted for no reason. This is on a recorded 911 call and on OPD bodycam footage. She apparently find it entirely believable that a cashier would suddenly chase down and tackle someone just because they were black!

Choirmom34 said...

From Legal Insurrection:

“Oberlin College (unsuccessfully) tried to keep out police records showing no racial profiling at Gibson's Bakery: 40 arrested, 32 were white (80%), six were African-American (15%), and two were Asian (5%), pretty much matched city's racial makeup.”

AND

“A deposition by former Oberlin College president Marvin Krislov said the school had about 400 people who live locally on a “no trespass” list, meaning those people were banned from setting foot anywhere on the school’s 440 acres.

Krislov said in parts of his videotaped deposition shown to the jury (he may testify in person later in the trial), that “a large number of the community were upset about it, because there were a disproportionate number of African-Americans on it.” (Krislov is now president of Pace University in New York City).”

As an Oberlin grad, this whole episode is deeply troubling to me. Students need to be held accoutanble for their actions, no matter what their race, and institutional bullies as well. I hope that Gibson’s outlives Oberlin. I’m putting in my order for whole wheat donuts tomorrow!

RichardJohnson said...

“Gibson bakery’s archaic chase-and-detain policy regarding suspected shoplifters was the catalyst for the protests,” the college said. “The guilt or innocence of the students is irrelevant to both the root cause of the protests and this litigation.”

Oberlin's calling it an "archaic chase-and-detain policy regarding suspected shoplifters" is not neutral at all. This is one more indication that far from being neutral, Oberlin took sides in the students versus Gibson's dispute. Which, as I recall, was why Gibson's filed suit against Oberlin.


I wonder how the Dean or the President of the college would react to a burglar at their places of residence. I would be very surprised to find out they would not call the police.

RichardJohnson said...

Choirmom34, thanks for bringing up Oberlin's no-trespass list on about 400 Oberlin residents. I oculdn't remember where I had read about it.

Joanne Jacobs said...

Of 30 people arrested for shoplifting at Gibson's (not sure of time period), 6 were black, reports Legal Insurrection. The local population is about 15% black.

In one of the emails released in the case, an Oberlin employee says she's talked to a dozen "townie" friends who are "people of color." All are disgusted and embarrassed by the idea that it's racist to arrest shoplifters who are black, the woman told colleagues.

The flyer charged a history of racial profiling. Nobody was able to produce any evidence to support that claim. Blacks who'd worked for the Gibsons said it was untrue.

Laslo Spatula said...

All of these Universities, built on centuries of systematic racism and the domino-effect of free slave labor on white wealth.

All of these Universities, turning out class after class of white oppressors to function as an elite to further the cause of racism.

All of these Universities, hobbling blacks for decades by promoting white-supremacist modes of evaluation.

Obviously, we need Reparations from the University Endowments Now.

Then we tear down the obsolete buildings and build courts for Midnight Basketball.

I am Laslo.

Marc in Eugene said...

The damages in this case will be three times greater than any other Mr Plakas has won. I had never looked around a trial lawyer's website but it doesn't seem to me that Plakas is a specially ferocious bird of prey.

Nichevo said...

But my point in distinguishing yelling "racist" versus yelling "fire" is that it's an opinion. There are probably some ambiguities about what is a fire (but the problem in shouting "fire" is entirely defined in terms of causing a panic), but the question of what is "racist" is fraught with ambiguity. It's a subject to be debated and it shouldn't be at the risk of liability.



Take off your clothes, Ann.

Put it another way. If The Crack Emcee tells you to take off your clothes, and you refuse indignantly and maybe slap him, and he goes out and whips up a mob on your racism and you get gangraped, put out of a job, Amazon demonetises you, and Google nukes your blog, you really haven't got a complaint, have you?

ccscientist said...

Oberlin was not an innocent bystander: it canceled the long-standing contract with Gibson's for baked goods for the campus, thus trying to put them out of business.

When an official of the college issues campus-wide emails denouncing Gibson's, that person is not acting autonomously, even if they think they are. Oberlin should have disavowed such communications if they disagreed.

The implication that blacks should not be stopped for shoplifting would not apply, I bet, to blacks shoplifting books from the campus bookstore or chemicals from the chem lab. It is also insane.

Mea Sententia said...

I don't know what racism is. It used to mean something like this: you look down on someone of another race, assuming you are superior to them, and you treat them badly. But now the meaning of racism has morphed beyond any recognition. I listen to experts explaining 'systemic racism' but it's all so abstract and diffuse and unintelligible. It's like racism has just become a giant net to ensnare the whole world and declare it guilty.

One more thought: I do not understand why a college student would casually steal something from a store. I don't understand why you'd think you were entitled to take something that wasn't yours. I was a college student once, and I went into stores, but the thought of taking something that didn't belong to me would never have been a glimmer in my mind. I don't understand how that thought lives comfortably in people's minds.

JeanE said...

Imagine the following scenario. Three Oberlin College students who are active in the campus LGBTQ community attempt to shoplift merchandise from a local store which is owned by two brothers who are Muslim. The shoplifters are stopped and the police are called, but students from the college decide that the shopkeepers actions are actually homophobic because the students were wearing gay pride t-shirts when they entered the store. There are protests against the store. Oberlin College administrators help hand out flyers that describe the store owners as bigoted and homophobic, discontinue doing business with the store and subsequently the shop loses business from the larger community. Are the administrators with the college exercising their free speech rights, or are they defaming the character of the shopkeeper?

DavidD said...

In what way is a chase-and-detain policy racist?

TJM said...

As an employer, I would reject a resume from an Oberlin graduate, out of hand.

Michael K said...

Are the administrators with the college exercising their free speech rights, or are they defaming the character of the shopkeeper?

The Muslim shopkeepers will contact CAIR and the administrators will undergo FGM.

Paco Wové said...

"I don't know what racism is."

That's as intended. It means whatever your betters at Oberlin want it to mean on a given day.

Michael K said...

I had never looked around a trial lawyer's website but it doesn't seem to me that Plakas is a specially ferocious bird of prey.

But the Covington kids' lawyer is. Oberlin was low hanging fruit. Now comes WaPoo and AT&T (CNN owners).

Birkel said...

Pavo Wové has it exactly right. Clear language is anathema to SJWs. Do not allow them to obscure the language. Force them to lay bare their motivations and assumptions. When they do, normals will reject Leftism out of hand.

It's a scam.
Never let your enemy define you or your positions.

Oso Negro said...


We probably need to institute National Classical Racism Day. If you believe that catching shoplifters is inherently racist and calling people who do that racist "is contributing to and developing the meaning of the idea of racism" you may need some assistance in getting in touch with reality. Granite City, Illinois, my mother's hometown, had exactly three negroes living there according to the 1960 census. You would not see a black person in Granite after sundown, because the white people would beat the shit out of them, just for being there. That seems to me to be a bit more than just an "in someone's mind". If that sort of thing would still be done once a year, it would be ever so much easier to see how far we have come and not sweat the smaller stuff.

Ken B said...

Althouse has not responded to rebuttal of her error. The university did not , since 2016, opine the Gibson policy was racist. They published specific factual claims about incidents at Gibson's. That is not the same. They were not sued for anyone’s opinion, but for actions. These actions included pressure on third parties to not do business with Gibson's.
I wish she would read LI before ... opining.

chickelit said...

Can we assume that not only will Oberlin retain Ms. Raimondo (King of the World) but that they will promote her?

Bruce Hayden said...

Blogger Laslo Spatula said...
All of these Universities, built on centuries of systematic racism and the domino-effect of free slave labor on white wealth.

All of these Universities, turning out class after class of white oppressors to function as an elite to further the cause of racism.

All of these Universities, hobbling blacks for decades by promoting white-supremacist modes of evaluation.

Obviously, we need Reparations from the University Endowments Now.

Then we tear down the obsolete buildings and build courts for Midnight Basketball.

I am Laslo.


The absurdity there is that Oberlin had a reputation before the Civil War of zealously advocating for the abolition of slavery, and there were apparently people there who were working with the Underground Railroad to help escaped slaves escape to Canada. My GG grandmother, along with her sisters, who remained in Oberlin, were actively engaged in the movement to abolish slavery, and my GG grandfather returned to Oberlin to enlist to fight in that war, primarily, it appears for just that reason. If there were anywhere in the country that should probably be given a pass on systemic racism, I would put Oberlin near the top.

I'm Full of Soup said...

A nephew of mine went to Oberlin. He is a far left liberal- smart but not practical. I have met a few of his classmates. They were all far left beta boy liberals.

Gahrie said...

How does free speech work if we can't call each other racist for any damned thing we choose to imagine is racist?

I get your point. Legally, anyone should be able to accuse anyone of being a racist, for any reason they want to. The problem is, there needs to be some type of pushback and punishment for those who abuse this right, as was done in this case. The charges of racism were pretty obviously an attempt to help three black students escape any punishment for the crimes they committed. Rather than discipline the students for their crimes and rebuke them for falsely accusing the bakery of racism, the school supported those charges. The students were punished by pleading guilty to lesser crimes and admitting they lied about the racism. The school showed no remorse, or even any signs that they recognized the school's guilt. Thus they were punished by a civil trial that they lost.

Paul Ciotti said...

Given that the student mob gathered at Gibson's the day after Trump's election it is easy to see what happened here. The students (and the administration) were filled with an inchoate rage at Trump's winning the presidency. They didn't know what to do with their anger and despair so they took it out on the nearest target, in this case, Gibson's Bakery. If there had been another store nearby selling say "Make American Great Again" hats they would have attacked that place instead.

Birkel said...

Question for all the business owners and managers on here:
Would you hire or even consider an Oberlin graduate to work in your shop?

My answer:
Fuck no!

Anybody disagree?

Achilles said...

Birkel said...


This extends to young female college grads in general. Unless I personally know them I will let someone else find out how likely they are to hire a lawyer and sue me.

It is just too dangerous to have actual employees in general really.

Birkel said...

Agree, Achilles.
I prefer high school grads who went to tech or community college, degreed or not.
They're eager to learn and make a living.
They don't already know everything.

Hari said...

Assuming that the Oberlin theory is correct (that detaining shoplifters is inherently a racist act) doesn't that imply that the police by arresting these detained victims of racism are themselves enabling racism? How can this be acceptable public policy?

Does there exist another situation where a citizen engaging in racist behavior can trigger the arrest of the victim of that very racist behavior?

Lewis Wetzel said...

"The median family income of a student from Oberlin is $178,000, and 70% come from the top 20 percent. About 1.2% of students at Oberlin came from a poor family but became a rich adult."
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/projects/college-mobility/oberlin-college
I suspect that you will not find many redneck kids at Oberlin.

rcocean said...

"Until I read some of Stanley Payne's books on Spain, I believed that it was the Right that was out to exterminate the Left"

I believed all the Left-wing lies about the "Democratic" Spanish Government being overthrown by the Nasty Fascists. Until I started to read books on the subject - like Orwell's - and found that the Communists had pretty much gained control of the Spainish Government by the Spring of '37 and that NKVD Murder squads were eliminating "Trotskites" and "Counter Revolutionaries" behind the lines.

Of course, people like Herbert Matthews, Hemingway, Gellhorn, etc. knew the Spanish "Republicans" were in fact controlled by the Communists, but they hid that - till the war was over. Even AFTER the war, they minimized they amount of Communist/Stalinist Control. You had Dumbshit Eleanor Roosevelt attacking Churchill during WW 2 for his support for Franco during the Spanish civil war - and she was STILL putting out the party-line of noble spanish democrats vs. nasty fascists.

rcocean said...

"The absurdity there is that Oberlin had a reputation before the Civil War of zealously advocating for the abolition of slavery, and there were apparently people there who were working with the Underground Railroad to help escaped slaves escape to Canada"

That was the "Left-wing position" back in 1860, and they moved Left - with the times. When have Liberals ever stopped the drift to Left-wing craziness? Never. They shift with the Party-line.

WWIII Joe Biden, Husk-Puppet + America's Putin said...

Question for all the business owners and managers on here:
Would you hire or even consider an Oberlin graduate to work in your shop?

My answer:
Fuck no!


No way. Fuck no. Hell no. Nevah.

Greg P said...

Blogger Lewis Wetzel said...

They decide whether you are a racist. You have no say in the matter.

I have a gun, and know how to use it. I doubt they do.

So no, they don't get to decide for me.

We can have rule of law, or we can have rule of violence. I'd prefer rule of law. but I can play by either set of rules

wwww said...

Would you hire or even consider an Oberlin graduate to work in your shop?

You're auditioning for a orchestra looking for first string? If not, that removes a substantial portion of graduates. Oberlin is a music conservatory.

wwww said...

"The Oberlin Conservatory of Music, located on the campus of Oberlin College in Oberlin, Ohio, was founded in 1865 and is the second oldest conservatory and oldest continually operating conservatory in the United States. Students of Oberlin Conservatory enter a very broad network within the music world, as the school's alumni can be found in most major professional ensembles."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oberlin_Conservatory_of_Music

Big Mike said...

@wwww, Oberlin HAS a music conservatory. Oberlin offers 50 different majors, only one of which is "Music Studies." I have read that their conservatory is well-regarded, but back before I retired I made it a point to not ever hire anyone whose major ended in the word "studies."

wwww said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Fen said...

"You're auditioning for a orchestra looking for first string?"

Yes, but not a violinist who is going to stand up and give the audience her opinion of how a Living Minimum Wage is intersectional with Teh Patriarchy. We can get that from the cast of Hamilton.

Tina Trent said...

@ Birkel: I can be reached at my eponymous blog, or my gmail account which is my name plus "1" . I've been talking to state legislators, but this is really going to take a federal effort. We need legislation.

Marc in Eugene said...

Since the conversation turned to notice that Oberlin does music, this post at New Music Box might be of interest (thanks to Bryan Townsend, occasional commenter here, at The Music Salon). The academic music people are some of the worst, alas.

Birkel said...

wwww,
Is it true that orchestras never get sued for discrimination?

https://www.bing.com/search?q=orchestra+discrimination+lawsuit&qs=n&form=QBLH&sp=-1&pq=orchestra+discrimination+lawsuit&sc=1-32&sk=&cvid=52C1C91D6B2B4AD799F3F0A4C5C3373E

Dumb ass.

Swede said...

Why was an article about this published in the NYT?

We were assured that this was a local story of no consequence or interest to the wider nation.

Rick said...

If the chase-and-detain approach is racist, even when the shopkeeper is right about the theft, then it's not false to accuse the shopkeeper of racism.

Similarly if the moon is made of green cheese then people saying so are not lunatics.

Rick said...

That is, there seem to be some people expressing the idea that treating thieves as criminals is a problem of racism.

Since the same disproportion in violation exists in essentially all law why not conclude the existence of any law is racist and disband it all?

Greg P said...

Marc said...
Since the conversation turned to notice that Oberlin does music, this post at New Music Box might be of interest

"One of my good friends and colleague Evan Williams has already written a wonderful article titled “The Myth of the Composer Genius,” which I encourage you read. Dr. Williams examines the cognitive dissonance between the belief of composers being artistic geniuses chosen by God to share their gifts with the world and the reality that composers get their skill through work, practice, and opportunity."


What a dumb-shit. Michael Jordan worked really hard to get where he did. Lots of other people worked that hard, and didn't get where he did. Yes, there are things that can only be called "gifts". Where do they come from? Genes, nature, God, radioactive spider bites? I don't know.

Neither do you, neither does anyone else, with the possible exception of God. But to call that "cognitive dissonance" is to establish that you have no cognition worthy of the name

wwww said...

The grads will audition for an orchestra, with their viola or cello, where they will be a better fit. That ending will turn out best for all. You weren't looking for a cellist or first string violin.

Oberlin is known for their Conservatory. The Conservatory is a large proportion of the students, which is, from comments expecting job applications, seems to be not understood. Why apply to Oberlin versus Haverford, Williams, Smith, Amherst, Pomona, Carleton, or a dozen other schools? The Music Conservatory.

wwww said...

Likewise, I don't expect many applications from Juilliard grads to cross my desk.

MB said...

This is too easy. Instead of promoting thoughtful discussion, a racism charge tends to shut down debate and cause people to batten their hatches.
By the way, this blog is pretty racist and an advertising boycott is in order.

MB said...

Make that deeply racist, actually.

WWIII Joe Biden, Husk-Puppet + America's Putin said...

When institutional bullies march in lockstep - the NYT calls it autonomous.

RobinGoodfellow said...


Blogger gilbar said...
“Maybe Oberlin College could enlighten us as to what the new and improved policy should be.”

It looks like Oberlin is saying that Blacks are SO MUCH LOWER on the scale of humanity, that we HAVE TO allow them to shoplift? So, remind me; which side are the racists?


Also know as the soft bigotry of low expectations.

RobinGoodfellow said...


Blogger rhhardin said...
Treating thieves as criminals has a disproportionate impact of blacks because blacks steal stuff at a higher rate than others.

The observation is certainly racist literally but also true. So perhaps somebody should argue that only false racism is bad.


If the observation is factual, then I don’t believe the act of stating it is racist.

If I say, “blacks steal stuff at a higher rate than others because ...

(A) they tend to occupy the lower economic strata of society”

Or (B) the War on Poverty destroyed the black family”

Or (C) they just don’t know any better”

I think only (C) is racist. These are all opinions.

Earnest Prole said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Greg P said...

From the trial:

https://legalinsurrection.com/2019/05/gibsons-bakery-v-oberlin-college-trial-day-1-it-was-a-mob-mentality-out-there/

Ortiz also settled an issue that has caused some dispute and consternation in Oberlin. Some in the Oberlin College community have expressed that one of the Gibson’s employees (Allyn Gibson) chased after the three shoplifters – one male, and two females – and beat them up unfairly and illegally outside of the store. In short, the school supporters have pushed interpretation of all this that the shoplifters were the victims of a crime, not Gibson’s

Quite the opposite happened, Ortiz testified, as he was one of the first on the scene and the police report backs him up on this.

“When we got there, we saw two young ladies [Endia Lawrence and Cecelia Whettstone] standing over [Allyn Gibson] and throwing haymakers at him,” Ortiz said. “The two women would stand over him and kick him, and then crouch down and throw punches. As we got closer, we could see [Allyn Gibson] on his back, with the male [Jonathan Aladin] on top of him and punching him.”

Another point made quite clearly by the Gibson’s was that they were not considered racist by the community’s African-American community and the city in general. Ortiz and another former Oberlin police officer said they dealt with Gibson’s on a daily basis, not because there was often trouble there, but because the downtown business area is very small and the police and business owners all know each other well.

Retired African-American Police Officer – “Gibson’s treated me just like they treat everyone else”
Henry Wallace, the city’s police department’s community service officer from 1984 to 2017, and who is also an African-American, told the jury “Gibson’s treated me just like they treat everyone else. They always treated everyone fairly and without any malice, and I say that because I have known them for more than 50 years.”

WWIII Joe Biden, Husk-Puppet + America's Putin said...

So the verdict was correct.

Only the hack liar Democratics who work at the NYT could weave their own bullshit logic. F the left.

blnelson2 said...

I know it is beside the case in this lawsuit; but has anyone asked the question why Oberlin students whose tuition runs near $70,000 shoplift at all?

FIDO said...

Does anyone else think that it is pathetic that our Resident Legal Scholar can't seem to accurately describe a legal situation where a deep pocket Academy went out of their way to belittle, besmirch, remove business and encourage student to disrupt, assault and destroy a business?

Instead, she tries to make it a 'free speech' issue.

Well, actually, that is a great way to deal with the situation...if one was Defense Counsel for Oberlin.

So this isn't Crewl Newtrality™, this is advocacy defending the Academy behaving badly. Alas, the shit she is selling was seen through by the jury and they tarred and feathered the shysters who tried to sell that kind of snake oil.


Expect the academy trying to put in clauses in business contracts about not suing (sure, like that will work) and expect more.

The simple solution of NOT attacking other businesses and actually HOLDING student accountable for their excessive stupidity which the Academy was actually hired to CURE, not encourage, is far too big a step for Althouse intellectually.

Yes, they may lose a few students. If this is the quality of students they have, they need to try harder or do better.

DEEBEE said...

Would have been nicer, if you took that sentence/argument filleting and took a stab at your rendition of how racism creeps into “chase and detain”. Guess the topic was not as juicy as Homosexuality or abortion.

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